This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and this week in our virtual pub, it's my pleasure to welcome Fiona Adamson and Jane Brendgen And Fiona and Jane have just got a book coming out called Mindfulness Based Relational Supervision. And I've invited them on the podcast today for many reasons. One is because it's a cracking book. But actually Fiona is my supervisor.
So I have a vested interest in having a great conversation about this with you both. So welcome Fiona and Jane. Thank you. Tell us a bit about each of you. So Fiona, why don't you start? Tell us a bit about you and then I'll ask you to tell us a bit about why the book. Okay, yes, so I'm in a late stage of my professional life, which I love because it means I can choose what I do, which is an executive coach supervisor.
So I don't and because I work virtually, I don't have to travel anywhere, which is lovely. So I can sit at my desk and I may have my pajama bottoms on. Well, who'd thought? So this whole virtual thing is, I loved doing it actually, working in this way. And we'll say more about what prompted the book, but I just love supervision. And obviously it's a delight to, in fact, I work with you both, so that's lovely. So can I leave it there?
Yeah, that's great, because I'm sure we'll find out more about you as we go on. Jane, tell us about you. I am of course Fiona's supervisee and we've known each other for many years, Fiona. Such a delight, truly, real delight. And I've been working as a coach since, gosh, 2002. So I've been many years working as an executive coach in all kinds of different settings.
And in 2006, as a result of an existential crisis of sorts, I fell onto the mindfulness path and I discovered mindfulness as a practice. And then I went on and did a master's degree in it through Bangor University, which was fantastic. But during that period, I discovered relational mindfulness. And that had a significant impact on me. And of course, it's what we write about in the book, the influence of relational mindfulness on our learning, on our relationship. So that's enough for now.
So it's so interesting to have you at this time because we've There was a podcast the other day with Sean Lambert about mindfulness. so we're kind of building, building, building. And I know that as we talk, there are going to be other connections with podcasts just in the last few weeks, because I've had a sneaky peek at your book. And I know that there are many connections. So what brought about writing the book then? Can I start because I was thinking about this and I thought you might ask?
Yes, I can remember going back. I don't know. could be, gosh, more than 10 or 15 years ago. We've been working for a while, as Jane said. Jane said to me at one point in our conversation, do know, I feel as if I'm making a new attachment to myself. And I thought, that's very important. So we explored that. And there laid the seedling of a chapter I wrote for one of Robin Shoet's books. I call it a tapestry of my approach or something, I can't remember.
But anyway, in that chapter, I wrote about this moment and what I understood by it. And then, and because I mentioned Jane and we talked about it, I thought, there's more to this. I really want to explore more. So a seedling can take quite a lot of time to come. And it's taken a long time. But so worth it. And of course, I've learned such a lot on the way. Thanks to dear Jane. I mean, we've done such wonderful things together.
So that's what prompted me, first of all, to send a proposal into Routledge. And then for us to discover, Jane, you can say more about this, I hope. I'm sure you will. About what turned from my book into our book. And that was crucial. That was a very traditionally academic book that became something else entirely. Yes. So Jane, say more. I want to say something important, Fiona, that in our journey together, I was teaching a relational mindfulness programme.
was an eight week structured programme based on a meditation practice called Insight Dialogue. which I had a lot of experience previous to that. And I said to Fiona one day, I would very much like to invite you to be a participant on my program. And because I wanted her to feel into the benefits or get the sense of the real benefits that comes from deepening relationality through mindfulness. you came on it, Fiona, and I think that opened up some doors for you, didn't it? Sure, definitely.
Yeah, good. Yeah, we write about that in the book too. Very important, very important. I love being Jane's student. And that's a kind of the heart of supervision and coaching, isn't it actually about learning from each other, even though actually it's meant to be about one person learning about their own stuff. Yes, exactly that. So yes, crucial, very, very important turning point. Yeah. So some of our listeners are new coaches and don't really know what coaching supervision is.
Other of our listeners, I know that you've got great experience of either being supervisors or having supervision yourself. So Fiona and Jane, what is coaching supervision? Jane, would you like to go? Fiona, you just passed the back. I did, I did. I will of course have a few things to say. I'm at a hock no I don't mind starting it's up to you.
All right so I speak from the position of supervisee and also I part of my work is a little part of my work is mindfulness supervision offers mindfulness supervision so I can speak from both positions but I will speak in this instance from the position of a supervisee. So it's a so what is supervision? It's a, first of all, it's a relationship based form of learning. I'd say that the relationship is at the heart of it. And it's a space where you can bring your own vulnerability.
And really explore things related to your coaching experience in the context of a safe relationship. And through our work together, Fiona, our understanding deepened. So it's a context of a relationship and where the safety is co-created. So it's not just Fiona holding safety for me, it's me providing safety for Fiona. So it becomes much more collaborative. Wonderful, Jane. Thank you, because that's what we discovered we could do. It took a wee while, not all that long if I remember.
But you know, I came into that relationship with Jane. I remember vividly the day I met her, telling her all about my qualifications and, you know, degrees and this and that. And afterwards, I thought, dear, what have I done? I did think that, but it wasn't until a few weeks later that Jane said, what did you say? Something about you were left feeling a bit, gosh, I don't know enough or something. I can't remember. Anyway, but the point was that I engendered a situation where I was the expert.
That's what I'm trying to say. And actually, then puts Jane and would put most people into, well, how can I possibly or what will I, what happens if I don't know something, all that. So it was it was wonderful to discover that actually I could be in a relationship with Jane in such a way we could both be experts, let's put it that way, and that we could actually. Yeah, and we had learned together.
And actually, that's been the main motivation for writing the book is to explore that very idea, which we think not a lot of people subscribe to. That there is this role division and power differential that some people love, of course, I used to. my goodness, I was an academic. And I loved being the academic. So, you know, it's lovely to step out of that. It reminds me of the Robert Fuller research on somebodies and nobodies. So do I hire somebody as my supervisor? Do know why I hired you Fiona?
I've hired you because I thought it would be fun. good. Yeah, we do have fun. that's right. But there's there's something isn't there, you and I have talked about this, Fiona, in our one to ones. There's something about it being a human to human conversation. Right, right. Yes, go on. And it's interesting that that's a theme that's come up over the last few podcasts is about about coaching being about human to human conversation.
I think often we turn it into somebody who's a bit special talking to somebody who's not quite sorted. And it just so isn't. It's just so isn't. And just reminding myself of a supervision session I had for myself last week, and I was able to share quite a lot of stuff about myself and my thinking and my, not my, my fear of anything, but just my uncertainty about something. And without going into details, it was just great to be listened to with great compassion and care.
And to know that this chap who I work with is He loves me and I love him and that's really it's learning through love. This is the message, isn't it? That actually learning is relational and for the relationship to be really enabling us to learn. Love is part of that. It's the juice of it. I agree. That's what we discovered, didn't we, Jane?
And I just, this piece about human to human, that this was the evolutionary process that Fiona, that you and I went through, we started off in these really prescribed roles. And there was, as you said, there was a power differential and I got caught in all of my insecurities and I was editing a lot of what I said and I hid behind a mask. And slowly over time, through taking interpersonal risks, we became human with each other. And so for me, that means that we can be vulnerable.
We can mess up with each other. We can get triggered by each other and we can say, triggered right now. And we can express our deepest fears without fear of being judged. So with each other, show up as these vulnerable, complex human beings that we actually are. Nothing to hide. And isn't that the heart of supervision? Because I think sometimes there's a kind of fantasy that supervision is about bringing cases. Yes, we're the case. Yes, exactly.
I can't, I think occasionally, Fiona, I've brought particular things, but usually it's because I've been triggered by them and I'm trying to work out what is it in me. Yes. So unless it's an ethical safety thing, which only happens once in a blue moon, it's actually about what is this doing to me? Yes, yes, how am I being here? Yes. then, so go on, go on. Obviously, you know, and what do I, you know, what's my learning and what's their gift to me?
Yeah. And, and, yeah, it's, yeah, supervision for me has been a, is a journey for me getting to know myself better. And, and for me as a supervisee, I feel the same, you know, because I've been in supervision for years and years. And The supervision I've been having in the last probably 12, 15 years has been so rich and so deep because, you know, I've been supervised, I was a supervisee as a social worker. managerial. And I didn't really like it very much.
In fact, I left social work because the supervision was so poor. Never addressed me as a human being. And I was, was heart sore working with families. of really unwell children mentally and physically. I just couldn't bear it. And I couldn't say this. You know, it was really hard. And that's another prompt for my wanting to write about this in this kind of way. Let's bring ourselves to reality. Our awesomeness and our flawsomeness, as somebody once said. I love that.
And I'm just remembering, Claire, that you asked me a question a little early on in this interview, which I neglected to respond to. And that was something along the lines of how our book became, it moved from Fiona, your own personal expression of your own supervision to a mutual undertaking, where we landed up with the recognition that love is the transformer. Maybe we can say a bit more about that. Please. Continue Jane. All right, I will.
It was such an interesting process because Fiona, you asked me to write pieces related to individual sessions with you and then you reflected on that and then the book went through transformation because I went through a lot of personal illness. debilitating from the times. And it was during that time where our dialogue deepened and we moved into deeper territory together and we came to the realization that this book needs to be an expression of a dialogical relationship.
So one that's not this traditional supervisor or supervisee because it taken on such a different form if you like. And then we restructured the whole book. And it evolved so beautifully and in a way, partly because of your unwellness. Yes. And my concern that this book's never going to get written, what will I do? And then the recognition that actually we were both on this journey together. And it really had to be written in the spirit of a dialogue. And Routridge were OK.
We emailed them and said, well, we've done this, you know. They were fine and I stopped being scared to write to them when I wanted us to have another few months. So they were very accepting, really. It was wonderful. So hats off to Routledge. So it's about partnership. Yep. Yep. Can I just say I'm a bit averse to the word supervisor and supervising, as you know, Fiona. What shall we call ourselves? People. would be great. People who learn together.
Yeah, you're two people, you're two human beings. Yes, that's right. I think in our professional world, there's quite a power differential in the way that we call who we work with. yes, that's right. It is a bit of a trigger. So I'm just fessing up. That's trigger for me. Thank you. Thank you. Go on. It could say two human beings in a supervision context. Yeah. Yeah. Two people learning in the context of some good reasons. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My supervisor calls it co-vision. That's great. nice.
Very nice. Yes. So good for him. Yeah. So he calls himself a co-visor. I love that. I think we'll take that on. I'm going to like your supervisor, I can tell you, I can tell you he's also a poet and we published one of his poems in the book. Amazing. So, yes, yes, language is so interesting, isn't it? Because when you when you kind of drop down and let go of your socialized mind, as we call it in the book, and realize that actually, I can think differently, I can be different.
I can try this, I can experiment with that. And I'm not bound by all the models and tools that have been dinned into me. You know, I'm not a vessel that stuff's been poured into. I'm a human being, as we keep saying. And just to feel the release of that, the opening of the heart and as well as the mind, it's just wonderful. And I think that's where the relational mindfulness was so helpful.
Very. Yeah. Just with this increasing capacity to be in the body and to what was here and to think from the body, what allowed the wisdom to come from the body rather than to think from the mind, you know what I It changed everything. And also it did enable us to not only get triggered, which we did, but say, this is happening, or can we just look at what happened? And it was such a relief to be able to do that. The body speaks the whole time. It does. Yeah. And to learn to listen. Absolutely.
To the gut and the belly and everywhere else. The heart. Well, especially the intelligent, the lovely intelligent heart. Yes. I once had a postcard which said, when the heart speaks, take good notes. Yes. That's great. When the heart speaks, take good notes. I love that. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, in fact, the whole business of learning relationally, well, you know, I have a background in child psychiatry and family therapy and all that.
And I learned years ago that we don't come into the world as a blank slate, we come in with our personalities, our ways of being, and then we interact with our family members. And, you know, for good or ill, we develop through that. And we become relational beings, because we've always been relational beings before. mean, as we were conceived before, the whole developmental world has got relationship at the heart of it.
And so in a way, it's good now that I'm the age I am to say, and I look back and I think, I've always known this, that relational learning is key to who we are, and how we go on becoming because we never really fully arrive, we're always becoming, aren't we? And that's where it stems from. And what a joy that you finally felt the confidence to step out and speak about it. is a joy actually Claire, you're right.
Yeah. Yeah, I've kind of hidden my light under a bushel for a long time, but I don't mind anymore. Yeah. And talking about lights under the bushel, of the process was daring to be vulnerable and speak in a very, or express ourselves in a very vulnerable way in the book. quite a journey. mean, there were times when I thought, know, what am I saying? What am I revealing?
And both of us had moments and of taking risks and going up, you know, with, with just as we are the, the, flawed, vulnerable human beings that we are also with these beautiful strengths. That really reminds me of that Brene Brown quote that says, vulnerability is the first thing we look for in someone else and the last thing we're willing to disclose in ourselves. That's right. That is so true. And yet when we are enabled to, as we were with each other, it's just such a relief. It is.
Because that mask that most of us wear for too long, it's just... And it can be loosened and dropped and... such a relief. And it's so powerful for learning. So we can think with such great creativity and it's not about thinking on our own anymore. We think in partnership. So there's such an expansion of our thinking capacity and our learning ability too.
Yes. So if you were going to put a few bullet points on a banner and hang it from the rooftops and you wanted those to be the things that people heard, what would they be? golly, that's a great question. Woo. Let's have a wee minute to think about that. I maybe one of them would be something like transformational learning is relational and love is at the heart of it. I would second that Fiona. Goodie. You think of one Jane. And it's a practice of courage. Yes. Courage, yes.
because that comes from heart, doesn't it, Carol? Yes, yes, that's right. But isn't it interesting because we're expecting the people that we coach to be courageous. So, yeah. We need to do our own work, don't we? We do, we do. And I mean, I don't do much coaching, if any, now at the moment. I think even though we don't say it, people sense that we're vulnerable or courageous or whatever.
So I think we mustn't ever underestimate the power of our non-verbals, if you like, that we create an energy field that people enter when they meet us virtually or in face-to-face meetings. And they sense. that we are vulnerable or not. Yeah. Have you read Tunde Adosh's book called Coaching Presence? No, but I keep being referred to it. So thank you for reminding me. So if you listen back to she, she was on the podcast about five or six weeks ago.
Okay. And she was talking about vulnerability and she was talking about being human. Yes. And the really interesting thing is that she, she did this research where she asked the the person who'd been coached to reflect with her on a session. She asked the coach to reflect and she then watched a video that some kind of video analysis that comes from the field of psychotherapy where you watch the picture without sound and then you analyze it against a kind of set way of analyzing.
But the thing that was really interesting about that was that the coach's perception was completely different. and the perception of the person who was being coached, which allied much more effectively with the visual analysis. And a huge amount of it was the fact that as coaches, we think we don't leak. That's my words, not hers, but that was kind of what she was saying. But we're only human beings. We're not. Robots are we?
We're a person who comes into the room and that's going to bring some stuff. Yes, yes. And also, Claire, even if that isn't immediately obvious to the person, at some level, their sensory being will have received that information and it will arise or emerge in the dialogue or not. I mean, I think the thing about these relational energy fields is that we can't escape them, but we can learn from them. and we can learn from them. And it's being attuned to the body that is the key.
Yes. Do you know, you know we use the the image of coaching as a dance? Yes. Well in last week's podcast Josephine Knowles who came to talk about something else altogether suddenly disclosed that she's an Argentine tango teacher and that Argentinian tango is about improvisation and you start heart to heart. lovely. It's worth a listen if you haven't heard it. Yes, we'll do. Because it really makes those connections. Yes, yes. I love to watch Tango and I love the music as well.
Talking of music, Jane, I know you didn't say but you're a very gifted musician who studied music as an undergraduate, didn't you? I did. And you're a very, yeah, very gifted musician in your own right. And I think actually your musicality in terms of nuance and improvisation, all of that has come into our work and I've loved that. don't know whether I've ever said it but I'm saying it now anyway. Thank you, you said it. I think the word that resonates for me is improvisation.
That links with one of the qualities Let me pause a moment. I'm just jumping ahead. I'm a jazz enthusiast. I love jazz and I love the improvisational quality of jazz because you just never know what's going to come. So you're on the edge of emergence all the time, like, love that. And that's what we've learned in being together so we can work emergently. So there's no need to know. Yeah. We're just the not knowing and trust the relevance of what's going to come.
and work with that, that's been transformational. It's freeing. So you come to the meeting and it's like, we can talk about, this is the theme, but let's see what emerges. And invariably is a rich conversation. Yes, yes. We find that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So give up that need to know. Yes. Yeah. And that's at the heart of all this work, isn't it? It is. Absolutely at the heart of it. Because if we knew, we wouldn't have to do the work. Exactly.
There's a kind of arrogance in that, isn't there? A sort of hubris. well, mean, after all, you know. And actually, to admit that we don't know something can be very hard for people. Is that expectation? well, I'm a supervisor. I should know. I should know. These shoulds and oughts are a real barrier, aren't they? I had a conversation yesterday with somebody who has, I had an email this morning and they said, yes, please, I'd like to work with you. But she said, how are we going to do this?
And I went, no idea. She said, how do you normally work? And I said, well, we kind of work it out. And I think she was expecting me to go, I come from this school and I do this, but I don't know. I don't know and I'm really okay with that. And if you're not okay with that, that's okay, but I'm not the right person. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Well, what a delight to talk to you.
And now I shall, your book, I've read them in detail, the final chapter, and I'm going to go and get my own hard copy and I'm going to read it slowly. good. And savour it. thank you. So how do people get hold of it? Remind us the title and how do people get hold of it? Well, it's called Mindfulness-Based Relational Supervision and the subtitle is Mutual Learning and Transformation. Wow. And it's published by Routledge and it's due out on the 23rd of November. Fantastic. Next Next week.
Wow. That's amazing. Can you believe it? Finally. I know. I hope you're going to have a party. yes, online. We're going to have a launch. Liz Holt's going to interview us on the 30th. And yeah, it'll be a great day. Well, tomorrow, every day is a great day, but particularly when the book is actually in our hands. wonderful. It is wonderful. Do believe you might have been writing it for the whole time we've been working together, Fiona? Exactly. And you see, in my view, the longer the better.
Of course. It was like a wine that needed time to mature. Yes, yes. It's really to be. Yes. It has to emerge though, doesn't it? That's what happened, Claire. That's exactly what happened. My book came out really quickly at the end, but it had taken me years to sort of sit with it and not write it. yes. birth. A quick birth, but a very long pregnancy. Wonderful. So if there was a gem of wisdom that you could each share with our listeners as we finish, what would that gem be?
It's one I heard years ago and I love it, which is know yourself, be yourself and love yourself. And I think once that begins to happen, we can love others. Know yourself, be yourself and love yourself. I can't say anything more, Fiona. I think that says it all. That's so beautiful. You remember what was at the beginning of our book? was the... We chose, Claire, we chose one liner at the beginning of the book.
We were going to give a dedication, but we found a quote that was just... it's a lovely one. don't know whether I've got it. what a shame. No. dear. It's Mark Twain quote. Isn't it? Love is the greatest wisdom. Yes. Love is the greatest wisdom. Isn't that beautiful? And that makes me think as you say that we often seek wisdom in our heads. Yes. Yes. But what you're describing there is wisdom of the heart. Yes. Heart and the body. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you, Fiona Adamson and Jane Bringen.
It's been a pleasure to have you here. Can people find you on LinkedIn? Yes. Great. So I'll put the LinkedIn links in the programme notes. Thank you so much for coming and we wish you a great party. Thank you, Claire, very much indeed. It's been a joy. Yes, I'll second that. Okay, well thank you. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with Fiona Adamson and Jane Brension. So have a good day everybody. Bye bye.
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