This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm in good conversation with coach and academic Tunde Erdos. Do you know one of the great, one of the things that takes a coach from being good to being great is partnership. And that comes from what happens in the space between us. And that's about presence. You can't see it and you know when it's not there.
And it's absolutely delightful to find that Tunde, who's a coaching practitioner as well as an academic, has written this book called Coaching Presence, Understanding the Power of the Non -Verbal Relationship. Welcome, Tunde. Thank you, Claire. Thank you so much for inviting me. to dialogue with you about the relational element of presence, relationship. It is my pleasure to be with you and I'm excited to have this dialogue with you today. Thank you. Great. It's brilliant to have you here.
Just give us a kind of headline for the day of your journey. Whoa, the journey. How much time do I have here? all the time in the world. Well, the journey is a very long, it's actually a journey of ups and downs is a relational journey of many elements, like in relationship with a lot of people, a lot of systems, culture. So it's not a journey that is linear. It is if I may say, even even a struggle. And I'm okay with calling it a struggle. And, but I will start at the end.
Okay. So currently, I am a coach supervisor at the UN in Vienna supervising 40 coaches worldwide. But in Vienna, I am a full time executive coach as well. working for international companies, which implies that my heart is beating for coaching beyond the individual and living in cultural elements and systemic elements also, but mostly inviting the clients to think collaboratively.
So not just how they are embedded in their systems, but how they are in relationship with each other and are meaning making of their own world in a more complex way. So that's what I am doing right now. And it's a calling. So it's, I really love doing this job and becoming an academic and doing research actually also was sparked by critical moment in my life.
Actually, it was around 2016, end of 2016 when I thought I was good and great and brilliant and all because, you know, like I've had all the accreditations in the world and I was the best. I mean, I didn't believe that I was the best, but it felt like, I know it all. Yeah. And then one day a client actually just reminded me, hey, when you are saying something positive, you're saying yes, why does your body go backwards? And I was like, what's happening?
And that was a moment where I woke up to something that I knew, wow, what a humbling moment with a client who can articulate something. I mean, she was the better coach than I was in that moment. And then she also explained like what it felt like. what it felt like for her to experience this lack of congruence between words, spoken words and some nonverbal response that was coming from my body. And then I got like, wow, I need to learn more about this. What is happening here?
Because I've always loved learning and developing and owing to this client's wisdom and the skill to notice, I am fortunate enough to today to, yeah, to be able to be an academic actually, because it's owing to her. If she hadn't been this poignant, I would not be sitting here with you today, because I would still believe that I'm the best and the greatest. And she had the courage, didn't she, to say what she saw. Yeah. And she had the courage to say it to you. What a gift. What a gift, right?
Yes. And you had the courage to receive it. yeah. Well, it was it was courage and also curiosity because and also fear. I must tell you, honestly, it was like, what's happening? I this is gonna because she was meaning to withdraw from coaching. Right. So although she said, Okay, so I know that we are doing great. And I'm making progress. Because her sponsors have to organization were giving positive feedback. So there was something.
happening that there was some progress, but she herself didn't feel safe. Psychologically didn't feel safe. And she was saying, well, I don't trust this. So something stirred her up. And that really created fear in me because I thought, my God, so this is gonna sort of harm the reputation of coaching and because coaching is something meaningful and it's what have I done?
So that, you know, my past, the critical, the critical tinder in me was like there also, so the courage, yes, the curiosity, but also some fear that, my God, what have I done? So, if I'm not wrong about this. Yeah. So what's been your most interesting learning on the journey since then? Hawaii, I'm not sure there is one most interesting. Like how, for me it is, this experience has humbled me greatly. And since then, I no longer believe I'm the best and the greatest and whatever. So this is done.
So the story is done. and the most, well, almost humbling. So one of the humbling elements, so yeah, it is humbling and it is, and I'm very grateful for this. So I think this capacity to be grateful and to be open to clients and see like how we can learn from clients. There's always so much learning from them that no accreditation or research can actually procure me with.
Yeah. And to be open to this and receiving and, and well, I mean, it's very easy to say, to be present to this because I can't hear that anymore, you know, because it's kind of like, what is it? And then I keep asking the people. So when they're saying, well, I'm so present, I used to say that. So I know that being present is so complex. I know I'm present. You're not.
And so how to use, well, I have learned to use my senses and to learn to use my senses more and more as an instrument to be there and to pick up stuff that I otherwise might not pick up. So in this partnership, in this, so that's the most important thing that is for me is like when we are there, what is manifesting? But how can I, pick up as much as possible, being always worried that, wait a second. So what I'm noticing, is it all, or is it just the easiest thing? What is beyond?
What else could I notice, but I'm not, because I've got a limited understanding as a human being. So I have, another important thing is I have come to see my humanity in this. I'm just a human being. And when I manage and I'm not there yet, I must say honestly. So, but when I manage to be just a human being for the client, that's when they can really immerse in their and thrive and then do what their journey. I want to cheer. You're just a human being. Yes. I so agree with you.
I'm just a human being too. Do you know it says that in my bio? Because I'm fed up doing stuff where biographies get made bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, this person is super human and super coach and super at everything. Because we're not, are we? We're just human beings. Yes. And you know what, while you're saying that, on this journey of mine, it also happened that, PhD because it's been really a big, big research project.
My husband, of course, he felt like excluded a lot because every other week I went to a conference to present creative awareness for the topic. And so I was not around. And he decided, okay, so I've had enough of this, Tunde, you are so engrossed by your by your calling and this profession and who am I in your life now? So he decided to leave me and he left. And in this moment of vulnerability, some of my clients back then, they learned about it.
So they knew I shared that with them because I couldn't hide it. I was not on the top of myself. How could I? So I was very honest in sessions and I said, okay, so I might not feel on top of myself. And I just brought in my situation, my system. And then I left it to them to decide, okay, if they wanted to take the session or not, or if they wanted to just take a new appointment or continue with me at a later point in time.
And what I learned again from clients is they were so... grateful to hear this, they said to me, I'm so happy that you're telling us this. And I said, well, so what is great about this? Because we can see you not on a pedestal, almost afraid, almost afraid that, she's there, we will never reach that, that stage and that. So it actually helped them, it inhaled some... some hope in them and inspire them. wow. So she's a human. She's struggling too.
So it's not a matter of not encountering problems in life, but rather it's about like, how am I coping with those things that present themselves? So that was also so revealing to me, like how clients want us as human beings. Thank you so much for your honesty Tunde. I'm so loving this. One of the things that I said in my book is that we've got to get away from the fantasy that the coach is someone who's sorted, working with people who are not sorted, because that's a power game.
And we're broken. Yes. You know, we're also robust, but we're exactly the same as the people we work with, aren't we? We're broken and yet robust human beings. And we are perpetuating actually this. I mean, this power game that you're calling a power game or of outperforming and outdoing ourselves in being sucked in by this.
I mean, clients are out there already sucked in in their world by the push into you have to do more, you have to grow here, you have to develop there and you have to more and perform and better. Whoa. And then they come into coaching and they actually face a similar mechanics, right? Yeah. Wow, you can grow. Yes, you can perform better. Yeah, go for your goal. Yes, go more goal, more, more.
Let me just bring in some academic here, like a Danish scholar whose name is Sven Dinkman, who said, those coaches who are perpetuating this ill -conceived concept of art performance and running for goals, they should be sacked. So that's to kind of like to bring in someone else as well into this, in this room with you. So there are more and more people calling for, Hey, wait a second. How do we need to kind of step back and silence this, this drive or this, I might call it a drive.
Probably it's even worse. I don't know, but to get down and create a different space for clients. that will allow them to experience themselves as they want to and need to. Two human beings having a conversation about one of us. Yes. That's all it is, isn't it? And all those definitions about coaching as being, as you say, aspiring to goals and personal and professional performance and self -actualization and goodness only knows what. It's only a conversation.
Yes. And thank God there are more and more voices. Like there's also a professor at Copenhagen University who is Reinhard Stelter who is, who has written actually a book about what he calls third generation coaching. great. Say more. So third generation coaching is, he calls it like a collaborative relational meaning making process. So it's not about goals. It's about. we are collaborating in terms of the coach is the, what does he call the coach? A human fellow companion. Yes. I agree.
A human fellow companion. Yeah. Fellow human companion, please correct me if I don't know. So, but, but a companion, a companion, human and fellow and companion. I know these three elements. And he's saying that in this, narcissistic society that we live. It's a society that is driving us ever more into performance.
And he calls for more lingering and lingering conversation rather than, okay, moving through steps, methodical steps, how to get the client to feel more stressed about something that he might not even want to achieve. Yeah. Yeah, so that's coming and yeah. There's been a lot of use in this conversation so far, hasn't there, of the word human? We are using the word human. And humanity. I like that. I like that a lot. Reinert Hotstetter third generation coaching. Hooray. And it's funny, isn't it?
Because when I work with coaches, I notice often a huge desire to be the best people can be, which brings with it an assumption that I have to be perfect. And I was saying to somebody yesterday, for me, the difference between a master certified coach and a coach a bit earlier on in their journey, when they're really demonstrating great presence is that they still make mistakes and they're not bothered by it. And there is no such thing as a perfect conversation, is there?
And we have to take the risk, I think, of saying some things that may not be useful or serve the other person, or to have things come out that aren't quite right or perfect. And that's okay. That inspires me to bring in a piece of finding, if you like, about the research that I've done. Please. We were analyzing presence through energy in the room. between the two people like the coach and the client. And so we really, the spontaneous responsiveness, the non -verbal through the movements only.
So we do not know what were the coaching issues that the clients had brought into the coaching room. We do not know what they were really talking about or not talking about. We invited the coaches to use cameras without audio. So just a video. And then we were... analyzing with a software that has been used in psychotherapy already and has been validated to evaluate what is called motion energy.
So the energy that manifests between two people just by their spontaneous, so it's not premeditated movement, but really like, because the coaches or the clients, they did not know what the research was about. They just knew this is about presence. Okay. but they did not know what we were really analyzing. So they could not manipulate it in any way. So just how, when they are responding to each other non -verbally through their movements, whole body movements, what can we see? What is happening?
And then I was having interviews with the coaches to have their stories about how they would like evaluate, let's call it evaluate. progress their own sessions. And also we asked the clients how they were feeling in each session. And we did that for 10 sessions. So it was a process research. And what was very interesting is that while the video analysis showed real incongruence between coach and client, so a mismatch of energies. the coach would say that, it felt perfect to me.
I think I was present and I think it was a perfect client, coach -client relationship. And when we looked deeper like into this, wow, how come that the analysis shows this and your perception is this, what we found that this precise perception of the coach that, the coach going into the session and being happy and taking it for granted how well everything is working and already judging it for perfect. How that actually impacted the client's progress and they're feeling safe or not.
So the clients are not stupid. Exactly. Pick up miraculously. And we don't know. So we, it's so fascinating. Although it's, it's running well and the coach is saying, yes, super. And, and then the coaches were trying to defend their progress, their process. And he said, yeah, but afterwards the coach said that it was a great coaching. And I said, yeah, yeah.
because they wanted to please you because all is so perfect and probably they had brought their pleasing patterns into the, and that's why you believe that it had run so well. Had we had looked into this, if you had been a bit more curious about this perfect setting, probably you have found out what the client's issues really might have been. But taking things for granted, for example, or feeling so perfect is, is exactly not being present to noticing what might be relevant.
Yeah, because what you're doing is you're making meaning of something that I've, you're helping me to make meaning for something I've been thinking about for quite a long time, which is most of the professional bodies assess great coaching by the quality of what the coach does. But you're going to, we had Helen Saylor on the podcast a few months ago around her book about feedback and coaching. and you're going to meet her, aren't you Tunde?
But she says it's about the impact it has on the client or as I would call it, the thinker. But one of the things that I really notice is how much the learning changes when instead of observing the coach coaching, you observe the client or the thinker thinking, processing being. And in fact, we've changed the way we do all of our development with people and say to them, don't watch the coach because that's not the bit where you're going to do your best learning.
The best learning comes from watching the person who's thinking and that's where you get your timing from. And I think, would you agree that presence and timing are very connected? Very connected because... It is a dance, a relational dance. If you don't have the right timing to follow someone or allow the other person to follow you, it is a dance. And what we found in the research, when we're talking about dance, it is presence is not about the coach.
And this actually outlines very, like highlights, and I'm very happy that you're bringing this up because I went into the research with the idea of we are analyzing the coach. and we will then see like presence. Interesting. Honestly, and then we saw the data and I was crushed because I can't make any meaning of this data.
I was really crushed because we had 184 coach client pairs and I was feeling so bad because so many people had been committed to this and they believe in this research and they're like, and I can't make meaning of my own data. And then I thought, wait a second, We are not looking at the data, what the data is producing. I am already also coming in with my own preconceived idea how the data should be. It's a similar thing as in coaching.
We come in with how, how I'm supposed to look at something, the way you had described how you are, what is the process that you're looking at? And I thought, okay, so no, no, no, I'm having a preconceived idea judgment here. Okay. How else could we take a look at the data? And then what we found is that the client is actually shaping very much and influencing how the coach is showing up. Are we aware of this as coaches? We believe that we are not, we are detached. No, we are not.
And it's not possible and it's not desirable and it's not welcome and it's not valuable, it's not helpful. Because if we were that detached, we'd be a bot, wouldn't we? And it's like, it's, and it's, it's, it's this element also that. that confirms how important humanity is and the human aspect of being with the client companion, because they are, and we could, the client was reporting this after each session and the motion analyst data was showing it.
No matter what the coaches were then reporting, the clients, what the client reported and what the analysis showed, they were congruent. And then the coaches had their own ideas about what should be and how should be. So with the... what this research for me brings to light is this relational element of presence. It's not, sorry, probably this is my, I will just switch it off, sorry. It's not a presence is not about the coach.
It is a relationship and the coach is very much present and bringing in things that will impact the coach and how the coach is responding. That again is going to shape how the client is responding. And that's where the dance is really manifested and can be shown, it's measurable. I mean, I don't want to bring in too much science here, and that was also some big learning for my practice. My ill -conceived idea about presence is about coaching presence.
It's coaches presence actually, because this is how I was taught. Well, you have to be present. Well, there's no such thing as I. There are many, many spheres. You also see that it's not just a relational presence. It is also a systemic presence. Because what we also found is how just, for example, if you sit in a room and there is a truck driving past, it makes a big, huge noise. how that also might impact the process of thinking, meaning making, reflecting.
So it was just a banal example, but what I like calling the old sphere, the sphere that is surrounding us or the organizational pressures in the clients bringing in or my social pressures, like my, for example, how my, if I'm having a breakup in my life, like my, when my husband was leaving me, I think if I had not shared this vulnerability with my clients, it would have shown in some way in how we were working. I would not have been able to suppress it and why suppress it at all?
Yeah. So I would have lied to myself and I would have lied to the client. So there is not just the you and I, the we, the relationship, but there's also other things, the systems that we bring into the coaching group. And we do bring them into the coaching room. In one of the feedback sessions that I was having with the coaches after the researches was like, I do three minutes, five minute meditations before each session. That's not gonna do the magic.
And then it was the coaches were really like, they were also shocked because they said, But I do, I do my meditation before each session, but still the data showed that they could not be really present. So, you know, this short -term preventive or I don't know what is the preventive measure or I don't know something that we do because we were told you must, you must get down, you know, you must detach yourself for everything.
And then you go into the coaching room and then you will be delivering the perfect session. No. Yeah. You've just legitimized something for me there, Tunde. What is that? When I do coaching supervision, I ask people once a year, at least to bring a recording of a session that they're, where they're coaching so that we can feel together what's going on. Yeah. Because, because what you're describing is that too much self -reported data.
where I go, well, I did all the right things can actually give us really skewed insights into what we do. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why the multi -level analysis is so important. Yeah. Looking into different aspects and also not just subjective feedback, because we are, as we're saying again, human beings only, and we always have a bias. Yeah. We always have a bias and that's okay. No problem. So try to bring in also some measurement maybe. Please forgive me my English.
I'm not always finding the right words, but how to bring in a reflective moment or an analytical moment that is not biased by a human being, but it's automated. So it's more objectified. Yeah. The combination of all and thinking out of the box. So always being curious. So how else can I see this? The way I, it happened to me. I had this beautiful, massive data and it was like, that's not what I wanted to find. That's not, that's not. And then to like, what your work system then step back.
How else do you need to see what is wants to reveal itself to you? And the same holds true for coaching as well. Not to take for granted how we were trained. Don't take for granted. Yes, you got the training. Yes, it is legitimized. Yes, it's okay. but it's not your cure it all. And it takes continuous further learning and development and self -reflection, self -reflective, yeah, learning moments from the coach. because we also change as human beings.
It's not that I did one, well, people say like, yes, I did a training and a further training last year. And since then, what else have you done? What's going on? What do you do daily to self -reflect? Apart from the three minute meditation, it takes more than this. How do you do this?
How do you, in your practice also, like a continuous way of, And also reflexively, not just reflectively, but in each moment of your life by people you love and you're loved by, reflexively, how do you notice yourself? What, how are you meaning making? Not just with clients, because coaching is a way of being. It's not a way of doing. So it's a way of being in this life. And not just like when I'm in my coaching sessions, I'm a coach and otherwise I'm not. I'm who then?
So this continuous, because we change as human beings. And what I want to say by that is that every month I'm noticing how my identity is being reshaped and recarved, because things happen to us. And all these things that happen around us and in us evolve our identity. So it naturally takes constant curiosity around who am I now and who am I now? So yeah, constantly rather than say, I know who I am. Yeah. Cause we're all on a journey. Yes. And that's the journey. So it's exactly. So, yeah.
I'm not somebody who's arrived working with somebody who's on a journey. We're all on a journey. Yeah, yeah, and that's a beauty for me personally, that's the beauty of not getting there, not being there yet, because what would I do then when I'm there? So what? Yeah. And then what? There's an English proverb, I think, or maybe it's a line in poetry that says, it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive. Yes. Hopelessly. I think that's called poetic license. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
So as we come towards the end of our conversation today, what a lot of things to kind of ponder about for people. If you could offer one thing for people who are coaching to kind of hold and think about or... experience, what would that be? Hmm. And of course, presence is what my heart is beating for. So probably I see something around presence. To. To be curious, the presence is more complex than we might believe that it is. We don't even know really what it is.
And the research that I have done is actually the first real longitudinal research that is generalizable, that exists. So we are at the cusp of understanding. So it's F. It's the first step, it's a drop of water on the stone. So be curious because what we have found is that presence is, there's a lot of nonverbal elements that influence the client and a lot of nonverbal cues that influence us from the client. So there is the eye to pay attention. to our identity.
So the last bit that we addressed was like, who am I as a coach to work constantly on the, on the identity of who am I. authentically and try to connect with this, especially in times like this, like modern times, I find that we really are disconnected from our true self. We're disconnected and it shows probably also it showed in my critical moment that inspired the research how I was disconnected from my body. The mind was churning out ideas, was churning and productive and productive.
but it was totally disconnected and the body was then signaling, I will tell the truth. Not you will tell the truth, not the head will tell the truth. I will show you that I am the instrument that speaks volumes and speak louder than your words. So pay more attention to your embodied self because the body is the most reliable instrument that will tell us every single moment how we are doing. and how the client is doing.
And I will give a last bit of, I will give an example probably to illustrate this. I was having a client the other day and normally I invite my clients to have offline sessions. So I'm not very fond of online sessions and I'm not saying they don't work, but because I've got my own experience and clients want this. I'm not saying I'm not having online coaching, but I'm saying that even where possible. I will go for offline coaching, even in COVID times. And it's possible. Why?
Because in that particular session, in our conversation, suddenly the client started sweating. Sweat is a physiological response that I could not have perceived online. Sweat as a physiological response shows that the body is speaking, it has a language. that the mind cannot produce yet. The words cannot bring out, you know, can't verbalize it.
So I could pick that up with the client and we had, we could, we could get to the, to the core of, of the issue that was actually his issue rather than what he was bringing rather than, you know, this, what he originally thought was the issue by paying attention to how the body was responding. And I could not have picked it up online, for example. Yeah, we might have got to the same result somehow, probably, I don't know, because that's science fiction.
But I know that because I could see the client and had the client space, I could pick up on that physiological response. So the body speaks volumes. It has got some hidden intelligence that is superior to our mental capacities. And for people to pay attention to this intelligence, to this hidden intelligence, because that's what happens in nature too. Nature is already practicing that.
And I could go on and on and give examples about how nature is making use of this, of how they are present with each other. Nature is present, trees are present with each other. They can coexist and thrive. They don't talk.
So to not, to... to try to be curious more about the nonverbal elements of presence as well as a relational capacity, not as a coach capacity, as a relational, the nonverbal because there is more truth and coaches might or leaders also or anyone could make more complete sense of what is going on. Yeah. So it's about me and my body, you and your body and all these things that are happening in the space between us. The space and everything else that is also happening.
So what are we bringing in from our systems, needs and pressure and stress? Yeah. Because stress is always there. And to what extent does it impact and coaches bring in stress and they are not noticing it. So. And then also how our culture like I've come to like one last bit. I have said no to coaching, for example, in Arabic countries.
I was invited to coach in Arabic countries and I learned to say no to this because I understood I have no idea, no real deep conceiving and understanding of how they work, what... what is important to them. So first I need to do the work of understanding the culture as best as I can before I embark on saying, yeah, hooray, hooray, I have a contract, blah, blah. I mean, learn to say no, be honest. What is it that you as a human being can really deliver credibly to your client?
Because cultural elements also play a big role. And if you are not culture savvy, you might harm clients and you might harm the profession of coaching. Be wise and be human is what you're saying, isn't it? thank you. Thank you Tunde so much. Thank you for inviting me to have this beautiful dialogue. I love the way you have let me through this, the meeting, because I didn't know what was expecting me here and what I could expect to receive here.
Claire, thank you so much for this heartwarming dialogue with you. Which is co -created by two human beings, right? So thank you, Tunde. So I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in the company of Tunde Erdos from Vienna. Bye -bye, everybody. Thanks, Tunde. Thank you very much. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please share the podcast with a friend. who might also be interested. And if you'd like to become one of our regulars at The Coaching In, you can subscribe at Podbean or on iTunes.
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