This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Hello, welcome to The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick, and today it's my privilege to be in conversation with Sam Isaacson, who's just had a book out, How to Thrive as a Coach in a Digital World. Hello, Sam. Hi, Claire. is great to be here with you today. Thank you for having Yeah, and you. So please tell us a bit about you and your journey to writing this great book.
Yes, well, it's a little bit of an odd one with a degree in sound engineering, as I was just saying before we started, I ended up taking a job as a technology auditor, which is not a natural career step, but seemed to make sense for me at the time. And when I ended up doing that for about 10 years and kind of working in the world of technology risk consulting and assurance services.
And what I determined while I was doing that role was that Almost all the time, when I was going into different organizations and looking at things that were going wrong with their technology and understanding what risks they were facing, almost all the time, the technology wasn't the problem. The problem was the people.
So you'd have some developer somewhere writing some code, doing something that he or she thought was a sensible thing and then providing it to a user and then the user getting it and going, that's not quite what I asked for. Actually, I was imagining something different and it was just a breakdown in communication and a problem with. is dealing with change. And so I kind of got interested in the whole psychology of change. And long story short, that turned into me becoming a coach.
And eventually I've sort of transitioned into doing that full time. So now I work for Grant Thornton, which is a big professional services firm leading their coaching services offering to our clients. And then at the beginning of or towards the beginning of 2020, ended up having a conversation with Open University Press about the fact that or almost zero books about coaching and technology and where those worlds meet. And it seemed like there was a lot of interest in it and activity in it.
because of my background and then what I'm doing now, it's kind of seemed to make sense to join those dots up. And so then I had a fascinating ride of talking to lots of different people and discovering way more than I thought was possible in writing the book. And that's kind of brought us to where we are today. So, yeah, it's interesting. thank you. There's something there for me about a theme of co-creation.
Because it feels as though you're saying that at the beginning there was the mismatch in the technology. You said the issue was the people and it feels like there was something about co-creation there and that you've now moved to a place where that's your kind of full-time role. Yeah, nice. Yes, it's great. And I think that's what coaching is, isn't it? Totally.
You sort of sit in a space and then at the beginning of it, much like this conversation actually, You're not sure what it's going to turn into at the end, but as long as you know that you're doing the right things and heading in the right direction, actually, the joy is in the ride and then seeing what emerges from it. I notice that some coaches are technophobes and then we've got kind of early adopters and everything in between.
What's the message, the key message that you think coaches need to be hearing about technology? Yeah, so I think I agree with you in that there are a number of coaches that I've met that when I talk to them about technology, there is this sense of, you know, I'm a people person rather than a technology person. And so I'd rather not have anything to do with it.
I also think there are other coaches who are so into what's new and shiny that almost anything to do with technology, if it's a bit gadgety, It must be a good thing because it's exciting and you know, I can do something like that in my coaching. And so I think my, the message that I'm going out to the world with is regardless of which of those camps you naturally find yourself in, it's probably better for you to understand more about technology and more about its impact on coaching.
And in some cases that's going to bring lots of benefits and technology tends to, that's why we use it. It also presents a whole new set of risks. The biggest one in my mind is around confidentiality, which is an absolute pillar of coaching and tends to introduce new issues when we introduce technology into it. And then there are some ethical dilemmas that get presented, which we're seeing in the world, right?
You the more technology we use, the more issues we encounter that we just wouldn't have predicted. And now it's a bit too late because we're, are where we are. And so I think increasing our understanding of technology and what it's doing to us and the people that we're working with as coaches can only be a good thing and allows us to take a bit more control or at least some influence over the future of the coaching profession.
Because if we don't do it, then somebody else will and the people who will are most likely to end up being the technology providers who probably aren't coaches themselves. So there's a little bit of a wake up call, I suppose. know, things are happening. the tide is shifting and I'd like coaches to be right at the front edge of that. So there's something there about courage. there certainly is. Yeah. And stepping into the unknown.
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of that, particularly with a lot of the more experimental technologies out there, which are there are lots of the more exciting ones in terms of the difference that they can make.
I've been experimenting with an app at the moment, for example, on my phone that is able to And we can talk about this if you're interested, but inducing states of kind of going on a psychedelic trip through flashing the LED light into your eyes at a rate that generates certain brainwave frequencies, which is not particularly new, but the app itself is quite new. And obviously anybody can download that onto their phone anytime that they want.
And so you think, well, if that's the sort of tool that somebody might end up using, Is that a good or a bad thing? Or is there such thing as a good or a bad thing? There probably certainly is. The idea of technology coming along and changing the shape of what coaching is. And so just understanding what that actually is and knowing where to draw our boundaries, I think is a sensible thing. Yeah, and what it needs to be. Yes, is what it could be. And with whom? Do you push the boundaries?
Yes. I was talking to somebody yesterday who is quite anxious about technology and has by nature always done very experiential face-to-face coaching. And she was saying to me, but how do I do any of the things that I used to do on site online? Yes. So that is, I think it's very interesting and it's a really important conversation to have. is this idea of, I used to do X, Y, and Z. So how do I continue doing X, Y, and Z, but do it virtually? And I wonder if that's the wrong question to be asking.
Because what we end up then with is, in person, we do X. And then online, we kind of do X minus 1, because we've kind of added in this technology thing, which then just adds an extra piece. Rather than thinking, well, what is the ultimate reason why I'm doing that? And if I were to reinvent this from the ground up using only the technology when I can't do it in person, and in some cases, even when you can, if I were to use technology, how would I best achieve that goal?
And actually you'll end up doing something that's even more effective. for example, I know we were talking about soundscapes before we came on here, rather than desperately trying to do a 10 minute mindfulness exercise because some, a coachee has come into the... coaching room feeling very stressed and busy and just needs to get their head cleared.
If you were to use a soundscape using binaural beats to reprogram what's happening in your mind to be able to then calm you down in two minutes, you achieve exactly the same outcome through a much more efficient process, but you're just using technology to do it. And for me, you know, that feels like that's adding something to the coaching rather than you know, making us have to fiddle around wishing that we were there doing it in person. yeah.
So there's something there for me from what you just said about trying out in a safe place with people who are, who we're not experimenting on, but who we're experimenting with, which could be a peer coach. But so what is Soundscapes? You've really intrigued me. Come on. What is it? Yeah, so a soundscape is basically is using, I'm sure that you will have experienced going on to, you know, YouTube or whatever and finding the sounds of the ocean playing.
And then you play those sounds in the background and that's a pleasant thing to do. There's a bit of a problem though, in that almost all of those tends to just be a nice recording of some sound that lasts for several minutes and then repeats.
what you, after you've listened to that for 20 minutes, if you're trying to do some work or something with that in the background, you end up predicting how the sound is going because you've already heard this particular series of waves splashing up against the shore. And you get this little clip where it gets to the end of the three minute cycle and then starts again.
And if you've got a dynamically generated soundscape that is taking all of the distinct elements of what the sound of an ocean is. and then generates that essentially randomly by presenting one at a time in multiple different ways, then suddenly it becomes an alive space that you're able to sit in. So shall I show you one? Yes, do. Because I just picked up, as you said, I wonder whether what you were saying, if it's the clip, is that you then start listening out for it.
because you know that the same thing's coming again and that's distracting, isn't it, actually? Well, yes, certainly that, or just as simple as you hear it audibly. And so then that distracts you. the very purpose that it's there to try to do, which is to take you away from everything else and not be distracted so you can concentrate, is then adding more distractions, which is not very helpful.
So I know video doesn't work particularly well on podcast, but what I'm now sharing with Claire is a website which has got a series of stems that look like one of those equalizer faders that you get on, you know, your old big hi-fi system. And on each one of these, I think there's 10 of them, you've got various different sounds. So I'm just going to start playing some... Here we go. This is going to be the sound of some wind on the coast. I don't know how clearly you'll be able to hear that.
about the sound of just walking along in a nice... I can see it in my head! So that's made up of there's a very low frequency of some wind in the background then you've got some waves crashing off in the distance and then the sound of I can add into it manually a little bit of rain. Maybe I want to make it feel now that we're walking down from the cliffs along to a pebble. And then can hear the waves lapping up against the pebbles a little bit more.
This soundscape is dynamically generating all the waves. I take everything out except for those waves. Wow. Just a series of sounds that are being played in a random sequence. And as the coach in a coaching session, I'd be able to share that on the screen as I'm doing here now and allow us to go to that place. And of course, this website has got more than 200 different soundscapes on. It's called my noise dot net. If people are interested in finding it.
As I mentioned, binaural beats for people that are not familiar with what that is, it's you play two very pure sounds, one into each ear. So you need to do it through headphones for it to work. But they're so close in frequency that your brain attempts to interpret them as being one. And what that means is that when they're ever so slightly different, your brain generates the sound of a sound wave and then your brain waves start to line up with what that sound wave is.
Wow. So if I start by playing as this is, you can probably hear it kind of. sound isn't actually being played, it's too pure. if we're sitting with our eyes closed. hear that it's the wave. yeah. And as you're doing that, it's what it's doing in theory is it's slowing your brainwave patterns down. even just at a surface level, as you're listening to that, you can't help yourself from breathing more slowly and your heart rate slowing down.
And even just in that 10 seconds that I showed it there, that's a it's quite a powerful way to just slow things down in a coaching session. Obviously, you could increase the activity to make people more conscious. And if it's useful, they can do it at home. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And if it's not useful, we never have to do it again. Yes. Yeah, that's right. and of course, part of using technology in a coaching context, the coach needs to be confident in using it.
And so back to your point around experimenting, actually, once you've played with that a little bit by yourself and then you've practiced on somebody who is wanting to be practised on and working with you to help you, then that's going to help you so that when you're in the coaching session, you're starting to do it and the coach is getting distracted by something or just says they don't like it to know how to respond to that.
Yeah. And it's all about with, isn't it, rather than doing it to people? Yes. Like any tool, because our listeners will know that I'm very averse to tools generally. because I think we can play with our favorite tools with the people that we coach. And yet there are some really useful things that sometimes are absolutely the business.
I was listening on Monday to the recording that I submitted for my ICF master certified coach nearly 10 years ago actually, but I was mentoring somebody and she wanted to hear another coach, another aspiring MCC. So the easiest way to do that was I have permission from the person I coach for this particular recording. And interestingly, there had clearly been a metaphor over a number of sessions about an ice rink.
And wouldn't it be amazing if we could, if knowing that that metaphor had gone over a number of sessions, if I could have just had lined up in the background, the noise of an ice rink, so that if it turned out to be useful in the session, perhaps we could have just, given ourselves a bit more of an immersive experience. Yes, or you could have taken it one step further and donned a pair of virtual reality goggles and stepped into that space physically as well. Can I tell you what I did?
bit that I remember absolutely clearly, so this was the day, this was pre-Zoom, so we were on the phone and I absolutely remember standing on one leg as she was describing going round the ice. So she didn't know that, but I was standing on one leg with my arms out so that I could feel what she was describing so that when I asked questions, they actually connected with the depth of what she was saying. So that was kind of do it yourself virtual reality. Yeah, interesting.
Well, that's I mean, well, you started off by asking me about co-creation, but that's exactly what that is, isn't it? Identifying the metaphor and then you stepping into it yourself rather than sitting in this cognitive space and congratulating yourself on being such a great coach that you were able to do that. Actually just, you know, physically doing it for yourself.
Yeah. And that goes back to the courage that we were talking about earlier, that in order for the person we're coaching to be brave. We also need to be brave and we need to be taking the risk with them in the space between us. Obviously it's their risk when they get out into the world. Yes, yes. And I suppose that that word risk, that's quite an important one for me when it comes to using technology.
So I completely agree with you, know, coaches go to a conference and you see somebody using a nice little two by two matrix. and think, that sounds fun. I'll use it in my next coaching session, which is obviously not the right way to approach things. should be led by what's there. and we certainly can do that with technology, because it is new and shiny and it feels very exciting. and I know that there are some coaches out there that that's, that's what they lead off with.
You know, this is the sort of technology I use to deliver my coaching. And so that's kind of what you're going to get if you interact with me. And I'm not sure that's always the case because what you just pointed out there, the person who ends up carrying the risk of what's going to go wrong with it is the coachee, not the coach. Yeah. Most of the time.
Yeah. Yeah. And there's something about beginning with what there is between us and then only bringing in something else if it's useful in the moment. And I think also being willing to drop it if it's not useful. Yeah. And and that requires a great deal of noticing and watching, doesn't it? because for me to go, is this useful? If you think I've got more power than you have, you're going to say yes, even if you think no. Yes. But if I look, I'll probably notice what you're really saying.
Yes. If you're, yes, yeah. Although the problem with video conferencing is that often it is a little bit more difficult to read than it is in person. You haven't got all the information that you're looking for to be able to generate that. you know, that that conclusion you're able to draw. The reason I'm saying that is because of a very embarrassing situation for me in that I am working with a team at the moment with another team coach.
And we had talked about it in advance of a session that we were doing and felt like based on the way that the previous sessions had led to it would be helpful to introduce a piece of technology in which you move avatars around a three dimensional space to sort of a constellation. which is classic what you do in the team coaching session. So we thought, you know, we're ready to go with this. We went into the session and we had a, opening conversation. It was very positive.
There was a lot of energy. And then we went into this piece of technology and looking at the people's faces on the screen as they were interacting with it. It looked like people were getting little insights and were enjoying themselves. They're moving things around. And then we concluded that section and we moved on to a sort of rapid. What have you learned today? And one of the people in the team and credit to him because it was a brave move on his part.
He just said, felt I had a really good conversation at the beginning. And then I felt completely disrupted and out of my depth using this piece of technology. And I feel like I've now wasted an hour of my day and I'm not getting it back. Which, you know, it would took courage on his part to say that in front of the team and in front of me and my colleague. without that feedback.
she and I may have left that session feeling like we'd done a great job and actually now we need to reflect on it and learn to be able to pick up some of those cues that maybe we'd missed or to find ways of checking in or to slow things down to make it better.
And actually in terms of the co-creation word that we used at the beginning, I think that checking in is one of the absolute fundamentals of partnership and that is visual but it is also saying is this useful because it's okay to say it isn't. and giving people permission to go, no, actually, this doesn't work for me. Interesting. So what's the biggest learning that you had personally as you were writing, Sam? And I think there were a lot of learnings that I had.
mean, one of them was genuinely around virtual reality. So this is going to take a while for me to tell this story, but it's a fun one. think in the lead up to the book, I knew of the concept of virtual reality. You know, I'd played with it myself and it seemed to me like a little bit of a gimmick. And I'm really excited to see how people are actually using it.
And I found there were sort of half a dozen instances on the Internet of an article or a video of somebody talking about the fact that virtual reality coaching is this possibility and is exciting. And, I tried as hard as I could to find somebody who's doing it just so that I could talk to them and, be able to talk about it in an informed way rather than hypothetically. And I couldn't find anybody that's actually done it.
So people, a couple of people were talking about it and nobody had ever really tried it. So I thought I really need to try it. So I think I'm the first person in the world to have coached somebody in VR. Wow. And And that I've learned a great deal about, you know, coaching in that medium and it is, I really like it. There's all kinds of exciting aspects to it. so that that's quite specific, but I am excited by that.
I think more broadly, I was surprised by how concerned I became about the future of the profession. So probably my biggest learning is.
I would really like coaches as a whole and the professional bodies, I suspect, as a more systemic level to engage a lot more actively with the future of coaching technology rather than, know, the seats we've sat in for the last few years seems to have been, if you're most interested in technology and you're a coach, then you sit and you observe what's coming out and then choose which you think looks the nicest. And then just kind of see what's going to happen.
And that the more that I've thought about it, the more I feel like that's not the right seat to be sitting in. We should be seeing what's out there and then jumping over and sitting next to them and going, let's try and make this technology as helpful as it possibly can be to enhance coaching and reduce the level of risk. So for example, coaching platforms have grown a huge amount over the last few years.
And in fact, that word coaching platform is used in a couple of distinct ways, but in terms of at its base level, it's means the same thing for the purpose of this conversation. What that means is that there's a whole bunch of coachee data being stored in coaching platforms in almost all cases, securely, but security and from an IT perspective is not the same as confidentiality.
And I'm not sure that the coaches that are using those platforms understand that everybody who works for the organization that runs the platform in potentially has got access to that data and the data is physically sitting in a server somewhere. And one of those servers one day almost certainly will get hacked. Yeah. And so that sort of changes the shape of a coaching conversation where historically it would have been.
you and me sitting locked away in a room somewhere having a conversation and then walking out and the coach promising to never tell anybody about it, it suddenly changed its shape. And so does that change what coaching is when confidentiality is so fundamental to what we're doing? Yeah. It also comes back to the very historic and ancient question about do you or do you not take notes? Yes, yes. About which I have very strong opinions. right. Well, that's very interesting, isn't it?
Which is don't. Yeah, well, well, good then. So my practice has been for several years now to not take notes. Yeah. I think when you're storing those digitally, that I think that's the only real option where you can be safe. know, technology presents risks and the biggest risk is confidentiality, I think. So, yeah, it's an important one. I think there's something about gentle remembering somehow top level destinations, but not any other notes at all. Cause there's a huge question.
did last week's podcast was about that actually. So if anyone wants to listen to it, do listen back to last week's episode. Just picking out on the virtual reality thing. I've got a bit hooked over the summer on the BBC iPlayer program where they were two architects. redesign somebody's home and then they take them in virtual reality to experience the new home. Have you seen it? Yeah, I have, yeah.
And what I absolutely love about that is that it gives the people whose house it is new insights into their own situation and even though they choose to have one of those designs, they always change it to make it their own. But I think that bit, so if you haven't watched it, I'll put the name of the program in the program notes.
But one of the things they do, isn't it, is that they let people stand in their house with all the walls down so that they can actually really experience the space that they've got in a completely different way before they offer different options about what might serve their question. And I'm really struck by that virtual reality coaching, is how can you enable people to inhabit that new aspirational world? Sounds amazing. Yes, so I think it's there's a lot about it that I like a lot.
And particularly when you're comparing it directly against video coaching. Yeah. In practical terms, we almost are. just because of the nature of where we are. I'm not sure that I would say that coaching somebody in VR is better than coaching them in person. I don't necessarily think that's true. And although it would give some advantages. One of the big advantages of video conferencing is that you haven't got the distraction.
So we're having a conversation now on the same laptop that I'm after this. I'm gonna go back to using my emails and browsing the internet and all of that. in virtual reality, haven't got that, that the option isn't even there because you're kind of locked away in the headset. And by the way, the headset could just be your smartphone in a piece of cardboard. So it's very accessible in terms of a lot more than people realize.
Suddenly that the distractions go away and you end up immersed in this almost always very pleasant environment, which is quite different from You and I working from home, we're kind of surrounded by our stuff, probably the same stuff that we've been surrounded by for several years. If you can stick on a headset and actually meet a coach. So I've I've coached people in a very relaxing Japanese garden with a lovely stream trickling by and wood chimes sounding in the background.
I've coached people in orbit. I've coached people hovering over the top of New York City, you know. Gone to all kinds of exciting places and it brings different insights. So I was coaching somebody in a, in the middle of a redwood forest and they said, I wonder if as I'm thinking about this, things that are going to be hiding behind trees that leap out and get me. And as we were reflecting afterwards, I said, you you talked about things hiding behind trees.
Did you notice that, as you said, that we were surrounded by trees? And she said that she didn't. It's kind of come to her unconsciously, but it had affected the way that she was thinking at that point. And she chose him to go and sit in that place. We're speaking the same language from a different place. And I really, that makes me really interested because there's so many things I now need to go and sit with a coffee and think through Sam.
I did a hello conversation last week with somebody who I'm now going to work with. And he said, I want coaching because I'm stuck in my career. And I feel really, really, really stuck. And I said, where are you right now? And he said, I'm in my home office. He also works on site because of the nature of his job. And I said, where are you planning to be when we have the coaching? And he said, here in my home office.
And I said, no. I said, it doesn't bother me where you are, but you can't be there because my question to you is, how long have you sat in your home office and thought you've been stuck? And he said, about 18 months. And I said, well, If this is going to be useful conversation, you have to be somewhere else. It doesn't matter to me if you turn around or go for a walk or go sit in the kitchen, but you have to not be in your home office. So it's the same concept, isn't it?
That moving enables us to have a different conversation. And I love the idea of having a conversation in a forest. Yeah. And I mean, you can use movement in virtual reality and you can't really in video. So with the concept of chair work. it's possible to ask the person over the video to say, you know, get another chair. Have you got another chair? Okay, sit on the side of your bed, you know, do something like that and move around.
In virtual reality, as the coach, who's kind of hosting this session, I can, you know, pick up somebody's avatar and shift them to a different place. And now so they're in the same space, but they're looking at it from a completely different perspective. And you say, look at the chair that you were just sitting in and they, you know, talk back to yourself.
That's something you can actually do and it is very immersive, it's very powerful because particularly it's got 360 degree sound and so the things that they were hearing in their left ear in their previous chair, they're now hearing in their right ear even though they're fictional sounds. So enabling people to experience standing in a different place. Yes. That is amazing. So is there more detail about that in the book?
Yes, there is and also I've There are a couple of different articles I've written. If you look on my LinkedIn, it's completely on there on my profile. Brilliant. I'll put your LinkedIn profile on the program notes so that people can have a listen. So Sam, how do people contact you if they want to talk more? Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the easiest way I am on there. So great. That's absolutely fantastic. And Sam's book is called How to Thrive as a Coach in a Digital World.
What a great conversation. Maybe we'll have you back on because I'd love to dig a bit deeper into some of these things if you're willing to do that, Sam. That would be huge fun. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love talking about this stuff. So it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Great. I just want to read your final sentence as we finish and also say to people who don't like reading, Sam has at the end of every chapter this thing called TL. DR, which means too long, didn't read.
So you can read the whole book in these great boxes. So non-readers know that this book could be for you. So this is Sam's final sentence. Let's double down on our commitment to being the best coaches we can be, bringing a deeper sort of magic to the world than any machine ever will. I love that. Well, spoiler alert, but yeah, there you go. Thank you so much, Sam. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.
yeah, so all those bits of information are in the programme notes, listeners, and see you next time. Thank you. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please share the podcast with a friend who might also be interested. And if you'd like to become one of our regulars at The Coaching Inn, you can subscribe at Podbean or on iTunes. We look forward to meeting you on the next podcast.