This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Welcome to The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and this week I'm in the good company of Sarah Jane Marriott. Sarah Jane, welcome. It's great to have you. Tell us a bit about you. Thank you very much, Claire. First of all, just thank you very much for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. So I am a... and and a facilitator and a trainer and a mum and a wife and a sister and all those other things we are and a wanderer.
I've been doing lots and lots and lots of wandering recently. Wow. Wow. And you've just got your PCC, your accreditation from the ICF. I have, I have. Thank you very much. And yeah, thank you for being part of that process there. I really appreciated it. Didn't want you to undersell your coaching, you know. So Sarah Jane, how did you get into coaching? I'm always interested in that. Yes, thank you, Claire. So I got into coaching, it was about eight years ago.
I had stopped doing what I was doing. I'd realized I'd slightly fallen out of love with the career that I'd been in for 20 years, working as a consultant in. in international development. And I'd stopped for a while. I was working as a senior consultant and I stopped and I wanted to just spend some time thinking, what is it I don't like? What do I want to do? And came across coaching thinking myself, I think I need to go and see a coach.
And before I even went to see a coach myself, somebody suggested I go and do a kind of quick introduction to coaching. So I... did that and thought, yes, I love this. And after lots and lots of talking to lots of different people and lots of research, enrolled myself in a coaching course, a six month coaching course, thinking it might give me new skills to add to what I offer. But what it will definitely do is give me lots of time to think that's what I need.
Lots and lots of coaching myself and lots of- That's great. That's a great acquisition of coaching strategy, isn't it? It's quite an expensive way doing it. think if I just hired a coach myself, it probably would have been cheaper than enrolling in a course knowing that I'd get free coaching as part of it. But I, yeah, I just had this sense that it was where I needed to go. It was wonderful as I think pretty much everybody who then does train as a coach becomes fairly evangelical about it.
I did feel it was just absolutely wonderful. And it did allow me then to, to do the thinking that I knew I needed to do about what I really, really wanted to be doing and how I wanted to be doing it. So that was about eight years ago and about halfway through the course, I kind of woke up early one morning and thought I need to capture the insights that I've had so far.
And I sort of wrote myself a kind of, I don't know what you'd call it, a charter, a manifesto, kind of, this is how I want to work, my own kind of values, I suppose. And I think I realized a few things. One of them was that although when I left my job as a consultant, was almost thinking I'm just throwing that away completely. I want to start something completely new. I'm disenchanted with it. I've come to realize that that wasn't the case.
I still felt absolutely passionate about international development and the reasons why I got into it. I just become disillusioned with how it was, it was happening and my role in it and uncomfortable with the label of expert and senior consultant, et cetera. but I sort of knew I still wanted to work within the sector somehow. And I wanted to also realize I wanted to work for myself, but I didn't want to work by myself.
And by some serendipity, soon after that realization, I was kind of approached by a couple of ex-colleagues from my sector who'd also come across coaching and were also thinking similar things. And so we set up a company, it took a while to get there. but we set up a small company this time last year, celebrated our birthday on Saturday called Copperfinch.
And we are all about wondering what the wonderful, wonderful world of coaching and the coaching approach can bring into the international development sector. There's so many things I want to ask you and I've kind of got our listeners on my shoulder going, ask her this, ask her this. So I'm just noting down what I want to ask you. there's, why Copperfinch? that's a really good question.
And the real truth is it was quite tricky to find a name that wasn't already out there in terms of domain names, et cetera, et cetera, very hard to do that. So it was sort of, it was. thrown up as part of the kind of thinking process. And it was one that we all quite liked. Retrospectively, we could think of all sorts of reasons why it was a great name. I did some research into what copper means. optimizes performance of products that contain it, saving energy. wow. I know. found that.
And finches, they don't talk and they're hands off birds, but they delight their owners in their social interactions with one another. So copper finch. That's amazing. It's like with 3D coaching, it had a meaning and it's had about 10 meanings over the years. because you can make it mean all sorts of things, can't you? Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting to notice that like many coaches, Sarah Jane, you've actually found your work, your coaching work at the heart of the sector where you've got your authority. and how often that is true for coaches, particularly at the beginning, that we're much more likely to get work in sectors where we already have credibility and then move across.
But I'm really interested in talking to you about the move from consultant to coach, because it feels like there's something about power in that and partnership and things. Yeah. And it's really, really interesting that you say that. And it was funny, I, you know, I and my business partners spent a long time with those kind of, you know, what the, you know, there's labels, aren't they? And, and, what does it really mean?
And I want to shed being a consultant and, this whole power thing is absolutely, you know, fascinating.
And one of the things I'm, I'm wondering about, so I might not be answering your question directly, Claire, so pull me back if I'm not, but one of the things that I, wanted to shed or didn't enjoy when I was working as a consultant was this idea of being an expert and being labeled as the expert and further up and up the kind of hierarchy of an organization I got when I was senior consultant and expert in this, the more uncomfortable I felt about it.
And the thing that I loved about coaching or the idea of what I knew about coaching at the very beginning was this whole thing. It is about letting go of being the expert and in fact, the less you know, the better you serve your client. And I just love that, found that really liberating and exactly what I still love about it.
Then though, doing more wondering and the more that you kind of experience you get within coaching, I kind of found, well, yeah, but you can fall into that trap again and still be seen as the expert or somehow or other, yeah, having something to bring to the, to the process and people coming to you, your coaching clients still giving you power in a way that you don't want.
And that's why I have been wondering an awful lot and I'm really enjoying reading the chapter in your book, Claire, that talks about power and presence because it's still so pertinent and we still have to work out how can we not fall into that trap of being seen as the expert or sort of accepting that from others when they try to give it to us. Yeah. A consultant to coach.
Yeah. I mean, I think, and we still do do some, not so much me, but my two business partners are still doing some more traditional consulting in international development.
But Eve and I have done until very recently as well, but it's completely transformed the way I wear that hat in consulting because it's just so much easier to let go of that label of expert and work in a way with those who've hired you as a consultant that is much does look much more like the sort of genuine partnership and curiosity that coaching brings, I think.
So whether there's a huge difference or whether it's just about a completely different way of interacting with the people who are hiring you, I think it's yeah, I still wonder about that. So it sounds like you're saying you interact in a different way with the people who are hiring you, but there's also something about how do you interact in a different way with the people that you're talking to. So what does that look like?
I think the whole piece, one of the very first things you learn in a coaching course about the importance of contracting or right sizing or whatever you want to call it, that whole thing that you learn in coaching about the real, do not even start to do any work until your client and you together are really, really, really clear about what work is. is transformational in consulting where we so often are responding to a request for tender or terms of reference.
And we just feel that we need to be able to show that we can deliver what the client says they want, thinks they want. And we sort of hit the ground running before we've actually really sat down with them and say, and so fast. Tell me what you really mean by this and how does, how's that really going to play out and what do you really want to see by the end of it? And we don't do that for all sorts of reasons in consulting often, because we're kind of competing with other firms.
We're kind of responding to a competitive tender process, but it doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do it, think.
And so it's been really, really, important to remember to... to take that time to sit with whoever it is that thinks they want you to do a piece of work because you've got a certain amount of expertise to deliver something or whatever it is they think you've got, whatever it is they think they want and do lots and lots of wandering together to kind of really explore what is it that they really want to need? What's the real issue that needs to be addressed here?
What can really be delivered within the timeframe and the budget that they have? what are your mutual roles and responsibilities just because one is the funder of the work and one is the perceived provider and expert, you know, is that just, they just give you stuff and they expect you to go away and do something and for them not to be a core ingredient to the process and if what's going to come out of it is going to be successful, that it has to be done in true partnership.
And you're describing, I think, lots of different partnerships that need to be attended to for that to work really well. Interesting. I'm sitting here, Sarah Jane, looking at my African icon that is in the book. The thing about power is like an egg. And I'm just reflecting again, because it so so having read the book, my first line manager sent it to me and said, I think this needs a different I think this needs to be moved to a new home.
But it's interesting how much our story we bring into the coaching space, just in terms of the kind of human beings that we are, as well as the kind of contexts that we work in. So you're coaching in the international development arena, aren't you? Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I have the great privilege and delight of working with so many inspirational people. all over the world. So a lot of my clients at the moment, my one-to-one coaching clients work in the UN.
So often for UNDP or UNICEF senior leaders, be they the resident representatives of the country office in one of the country offices or in one of the regional headquarters or in New York. So doing some really important and amazing work that, you sliding doors world, possibly, know, if I'd carried on in my consulting field, not that I would have necessarily worked for the UN, but might well have been doing similar things.
And now I have the great privilege of kind of walking with them and supporting them as they're doing this great work that I've sort of stepped sideways from, to a extent. So you're working in a real cultural hotpot of people from one culture working in another culture with people from other cultures. So what does that bring to the coaching conversation? Yeah, that's a really, really good point because it is so true.
Most of the people I'm working with are working in countries that are not the countries that they came from and working with teams from lots and lots of different cultures.
And it's it's probably one of the main things that comes up in coaching conversations really is these relationships and how to, yeah, how to recognize one's own, recognize and own one's own personal sort of style and the ways of communicating, but how that won't always be the right way of communicating or particularly helpful for others with whom one's working.
And so, you know, there's an awful lot that comes up into conversations about that awareness of the impact that we have on other people because of the way that we might think or do things or expect things of others.
recognizing the need for flexibility and being, know, recognizing that you need to be different with different people and yet and yet not necessarily be apologetic for who you are and how you need to do things and find a way to kind of communicate that in a constructive way, I suppose, I'm in a conversation with one of the aid agencies that we work for at the moment about supporting direct reports in how they relate to their line managers in an international agency that works globally.
And one of the things that we've been talking about is who gives power to who. And my observation is that in a truly international setting, when you've got gender and country of origin and qualifications and country of living and country where you trained and or didn't and all those things, there's an awful lot of people giving power to other people. which really does do interesting things to the dynamics of the organization on the ground. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think one of the things that I noticed with the organizations I work in is that they're just, for whatever reason, system, know, they're just are power dynamics. Other people want to kind of pretend that there aren't and they're very hierarchical and fairly old fashioned in the way they operate.
And although they're really trying to turn that on its head, the kind of the whole kind of ways of communicating, the ways that people being promoted, the ways that people, know, the leadership styles are, yeah, of a certain era, I suppose. And I work with a lot of young female leaders in particular who, yeah, who just notice that they don't necessarily see around them the sort of leadership that they would aspire to become, you know, the sort of leaders that they would aspire to become.
And, and yes, there's this whole that you have this whole, you know, issue of international staff and national staff.
And so often the senior leaders will be international staff who were there on rotation for four years, and the team that they're working with are from the country and have been there, always and have seen so many different leaders come and go and their different leadership styles, etc. And many of those national staff may aspire to be international staff, but it's not very obvious how to always to get there.
And so, yeah, there's just so many different, different issues there to do with power dynamic. Yeah, so interesting. And you've hooked up with somebody from our podcast, I hear. I have. Thank you very much.
And in fact, listening, I listened to very many more of your podcast yesterday on a long car journey I had, and there's so many more people I want to hook up with from the AECC in particular, but Paul Mussocki, who you interviewed a while ago from the AECC, his company, Ancolo Consulting, is pretty much the same age as Copperfinch, and we've
connected with each other a few times to share the stories of our own kind of toddler organizations, as it were, but also about how we might connect and work together, hopefully, potentially in the future. So that's been great, yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because when we hear somebody else's story, it allows us to make our own connections and to make our own meaning in our own context.
So that storytelling really, so as much as in coaching, we say, you shouldn't tell your own story on the podcast. We can do what we like, but there's something about, I'm sure that as people are listening to you telling your story, they're going to be thinking, actually, in my context, it looks like this. Maybe I could do that. And that's such a great gift, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. And I would love to connect with other people.
I as I said, when we formed Copperfinch, was just so lovely to meet with, in this case, two other people who felt very similar about passionate about what international development is trying to do, recognising that for whatever reason, systemic issues, nothing to do with sort of malice or malpractice by the individuals that are working in it, but the whole sector itself is no longer or isn't working quite as it would aspire to in terms of genuine partnerships and genuinely empowering people.
so, you know, we came together, funny enough, to sort of think about how we might work in the sector. First of all, just thinking how can we get some clients within this sector? And then by the end of our three hour. initial brainstorming, kind of deciding that we really wanted to just kind of turn the whole sector on its head. It's a long term, it's a completely long term, obviously vision for how things get, you know, get done.
So, you know, at the moment, for example, we're mostly, as I say, know, coaching, coaching leaders who are working in the sector or facilitating conversations between those, those leaders. But I would love a beginning to have conversations about how coaching, a coaching approach can become the whole, you know, can become the delivery mechanism itself in some ways for some, you all of these projects and programs that talk about building capacity, et cetera.
And yet when you look at what they're doing, it's delivering training or so, really kind of changing the whole approach to the, to the sector. And anyway, so we recognize that it had to be long-term vision and just the three of us ourselves, but clearly aren't going to, aren't going to achieve that. And we know that there are obviously lots of other people out there.
thinking the same things and doing the same, know, doing similar, on a similar pathway in their own, in their own countries, in their own worlds. So yes, to connect with those people would be great. Brilliant. Cause there's, there's something in the research about building a coaching culture that says start in tiny places and they'll join together, which is what you're describing.
But I have to say something, cause I had a, I had a meeting last week with somebody who, is using coaching in their workplace. And he said that the work that we'd done in his organisation over the last six years has changed the culture of the organisation for a generation. And I was just absolutely bowled over because I'm thinking, but.
we think it's been a little thing, but what he's observed is that it's impacted the way that people have had conversations and that those conversations are going to change the organisation. And so it is those small trickles, isn't it, that make a really significant difference over time? Yeah, it's lovely to hear that, isn't it? And it makes me laugh, actually, just made me mindful of a conversation I had with one of my coaching clients just last week, I think it was, we laughed at the end of it.
She's a head of a country offices and the conversation was about her wanting to prepare herself for a conversation she was going to be having in a couple of hours time with another person I up in the organization to whom she had reached out because she's at the end of her four year rotation and she needs to be thinking about the next step in her own career.
She had found this particular job that she's quite interested in and had emailed this woman who said, yeah, sure, we can have an informal chat because she wants it so much. She was kind of worrying a bit about how she would go about this conversation. And she wanted to almost real play it with me or think it through before having it. And as she was doing that, she was kind of putting it down, you know, all of these things that she thought she wanted to ask this woman.
getting herself in a, but worrying that this was going to be too much or would she, would this woman want, I don't know, be able to give her this information or et cetera, et cetera. And I just asked her something about what does she already expect? How did it work? What did you, what have you already contracted with her? And then I just played back to her the very first little bit of what she said she was going to say.
just, and I just wondered what would happen if you just stopped there and then asked her what she wanted to get out of and how long she's got, et cetera. And I said something about, know, because then you've got real, then you've partnered together for the conversation. It's a partnership. And she just laughed and she said, yeah, and the whole job is about partnerships. It was funny.
And I guess it was just that, you know, just thinking the way that we're working with as coaches, with leaders and hopefully something about the way in which we interact with them and help them think, you know, and partner with them might impact on the way they partner with other people that they work with perhaps. And I love that you reminded her. that you just reminded her of what she'd said and that it was a two-way thing. Because I think often when we're anxious, we over-prepare, we?
And when we over-prepare, partnership is much harder to manage. Because we've got a pre-formed decision on what we're going to do. I was saying in a training session yesterday, if you know what you're doing, it's not coaching. And if you've got a plan, it's definitely not coaching. But that level of letting go can be really quite challenging, can't it? Yeah, really challenging.
And I think particularly when you're at the top of an organization and you've, as a lot of these people are, you've come to that position because you've always been at the top of your academic, you know, whatever, you've always been told how clever you are. You've always been, you know, had high expectations of you and you've got lots of responsibilities, et cetera, et cetera. Very hard to let go of that sense that you should know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So moving to power sharing is a bit of a journey. Yeah. Wow. So tell us about your journey to PCC. You said you stopped off having trained and then we talked about copper. yeah. So why accreditation? What was important about that for you? Yeah, good question. Because it's like, wow, this external validation, I think.
Well, the organization I trained with, you know, I could have done the accreditation pathway through then I think it was always I always felt it's, it's important to to train with a body that itself is accredited and and commit to that pathway myself as a kind of discipline, really, I suppose. And I really have enjoyed, because I've had plenty of people ask, know, why get accredited? People don't ever ask, clients never ask if you are.
But I really enjoy the discipline that it takes to go through that. So the having to really think and reflect on how you're working and re-engage with, you know, a mental coach and listen together to sessions. And I feel that I've just, grown again so much more. I I felt enormously after the ACC accreditation and that process. And then I was probably falling into slight complacency and kind of following a certain way of doing things. And then I thought, well, I've enough hours now to go to PCC.
So you go through that process again and more reflection and more mental coaching and thinking, wow, it's just so much more I could know about this or do with this and in order to let go even more, I suppose. that the journeys of how long, I, yes, I suppose it was eight years ago that I first trained as a coach and then three years ago that I got ACC and then I just recently got BCC. And like I said, just really, really found that process of.
reconnecting with what I'm doing and getting the support of a mental coach, in this case, you, Claire, thank you for that. Really, really has kind of, yeah, sent you trajectory, I think, in terms of wondering and noticing what's going on in my coaching. Yeah, and of course, the great thing about being a mentor is that when we listen with you to you coaching, we learn loads too. So there's a real kind of learning around the whole circle. of you and the person that you're coaching and your mentor.
You know, we all learn. Yeah. Yes. So it's been, yeah, it's been a very, a very nice thing to have happened in the last fortnight. Yes. So huge congratulations and happy birthday Copperfinch. Thank you. If people want to get in touch with you, Sarah Jane, how do they do that? So LinkedIn would be one way. it's Sarah with an H, Jane with no Y, Marriott on LinkedIn or sarah-jane at copperfinch.co.uk. Brilliant. So thank you very much for joining us on The Coaching Inn today.
I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with Sarah Jane Marriott. Bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please share the podcast with a friend. who might also be interested. And if you'd like to become one of our regulars at The Coaching In, you can subscribe at Podbean or on iTunes. We look forward to meeting you on the next podcast. You've been listening to The Coaching In. Find out more about us at www.3dcoaching.com.