This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Hello, welcome to The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and today it's my pleasure to be in the good company of my friend Ben Mizen. Hello. Ben, we've known each other a long time. Yes, we have about. 23 years. My goodness, that's very specific. I was just remembering because I met you just after I got married and that really helps me remember. I got a wedding anniversary coming up soon, so yeah. There you are. So tell us what you do now.
What do I do? Well, I'm director and owner of a small learning and development business consultancy in Hampshire, which is on the south coast of England. I've been doing that for three years. also lecture part time as part of the team at the business school at Solent University. Brilliant. That's kind of the names of what I do. OK. And you do stuff with Lego that has totally transformed my team. Thank you. Yeah. my goodness. Brilliant.
Yeah, so one of the things I do within my business consultancy is my thing that I'm really into is working with teams, helping them to, if you like, harvest and gather the collective wisdom that they have about what they do and the context in which they work or operate to help them kind of move forward and see new opportunities. And there's a methodology that I got into maybe about six years ago called LEGO Serious Play. And that's one of the things that this method can do.
It can help teams see their world differently. They actually build their team world and get to play with aspects of it. And when they play, they do learning about what they do and then they can act on that. If they choose, it sounds like you have. Fabulous. Yeah, it wasn't, yeah. It's been a bit of a journey, but it was started by us all sitting around my dining room table with you and a whole sack of Lego. So thank you. Pleasure.
I really don't know why I haven't trained as a LEGO Serious Play facilitator because I do like LEGO. Well, it's really interesting. the lockdown, from about April last year to about now, I've been on a bit of journey with LEGO Serious Play.
So when I first came across LEGO Serious Play back 2016-ish, I remember it the method just got wow that's really significant it touched on lots of things to do with my background in education a bit to do with organisational culture and it was just really innovative and I went okay I want to do that and so I started on this journey of learning how to do it and I went on a certification course which was probably the best CPD I've
ever invested in in terms of my time the company I was with who I was with at the time paid for me to go thank you. And it was really good. But subsequently on this journey this last year, I've been doing some learning about the kind of history of Lego series play. And actually, it started in around about the kind of year 1999 as this idea in a business school in Switzerland, two guys thought of it and it grew. By 2010, the Lego company made Lego series play open source and free.
Whilst there is a great deal of value for people spending time kind of perfecting and honing their craft, it's a little bit like coaching. The more hours you put in, the better you become, the more reflection you do. However, with LEGO Series Play, certification is really just a certificate of attendance at a course. No one measures your skill in LEGO Series Play because the methodology is open source, which means that LEGO, if you like, hold the copyright.
and they own the concept and anyone can use it. And there's a document online where you can go and download it and you've got all the basic principles of Lego series play and that's it. That's wonderful, isn't it? And I love what you said about seeing things differently. Yeah. Cause you'll know that I love that Mitelink quote that said it's far more important that our lives be perceived or seen than that they be transformed for once they've been seen, they'll be transformed of their own accord.
Yeah. And that getting people to look from a different place. And I just love the simplicity of children's toys. Well, I mean, there's something, there's something very brilliant about Lego. I people, you have to get over the plastic controversy and then realise it's a multi, multi, multi, multi, multi use plastic because you can use it again and again to keep it clean. But the thing you're talking about, about seeing whatever it is you need to build.
Some people say, I would need to see my problems. But sometimes you might just need to see how your team works. So actually building something, not only what you create, you can take a step back with, you can move and you can look at, but there's actually something in the process of when you start to actually use your hands, the nerve endings in your finger, do something marvelous with your brain, you start to get into this process of making that suddenly
makes some things which are kind of deep in your memory and some things that you may have forgotten that were there, so it sometimes can resurface and you start to kind of move these thoughts in your mind. Some people, there's a world of neuroscience behind Lego series play, which is fascinating. But I just love the fact that sometimes we talk about trying to give your brain a hand.
And when you start to use your hands, you start to think differently and you enter into this state of what's called flow. And you start to think differently and you can, if you are able to embrace the method fully, they say, just build and see what starts to come into your mind. So you might be asked a question, can you build what your role is in your team? And if you can, don't try and pre-define the answer and then build your answer.
Try and use your hands to think the answer and you'd be surprised what happens. And I'm always really pleased to see that people who I do that with, who get stuck on a question and go, you know, I just started putting some bricks together and something started to come. And then they see this idea come together in front of them. And that when they speak about that, they've got something tangible and objective to talk about.
And what's brilliant about that is, is sometimes it's really good just to put your idea out there and realise that that's your idea. And so when people are asking you questions, they're asking about your idea, not you personally. So it depersonalises the whole thought process, which is great. See, I'm having inner angst now. Why? About my Lego camper van. I'm thinking if I was going to do that, I'd have to unbuild my Lego camper van. Well, I've got more Lego upstairs.
Your Lego camper van is a thing of beauty, but those wonderful kits, which, you know, sometimes retail between the best part of 80 and sometimes you get kits which are like 600 quid, you know, that they are really jigsaw puzzles for adults. And I have no, I have no problem. with them because you know, Lego are very smart. They've created pop culture icons into things that people want.
Not only do people remember Lego from their childhood, they love camper vans, there's something cool about it and here's a kit that can do that. And suddenly they've got these three wins and you can buy them. But with Lego series play actually sometimes just having some kind of not really a predefined kit that can make anything is actually more helpful.
So. know, from the 70s I remember having a bucket of bricks and some figures and then you let your imagination get involved and I think for me that's... so I would never encourage you to take your campervan into a LEGO series play session because number one that's just like I'm slightly kind of anal retentive, I'd need to sort everything out and I'd just be worried about losing some bits because they're a beautiful model so I'm with you on that. Don't take your campervan Claire.
You know, I remember my first Lego kit was before they had people. And I used to make, I can remember as a small child making children, mummies and daddies. And they were basically a square brick with a roof tile on them. Yeah. mean, I mean, it's just the imagination, isn't it? And that's very much part of what Lego series play tries to do. So one of the, one of the aspects of Lego series plays, can you give the bricks in front of you, the meaning that you want?
So, so, you know, so to you, brick and a brick together, like you've described it, well, that's a mummy or a child or whatever, because you say it is. And in your imagination, that's fine. I mean, I do love some of the newer kits that come out. are wonderful, but, know, I've got to be honest, Star Wars Lego doesn't lend itself to creativity other than within the vein of Star Wars. Yeah. You know, and I love Star Wars. So, you know, so I'm being very careful about that.
But, you know, if you've got imagination, And you can make stories and metaphors with Lego bricks. You can do Lego serious play. So we're talking about making meaning and getting insights. Yeah. And that's what coaching is, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I've done a lot of reflecting on the whole kind of where this connects with coaching.
think it is, I've realised that there's this kind of golden thread through things like emotional intelligence, through coaching, through Lego serious play, which is it's hugely reflective. And there's something about the authenticity that someone brings to either the answer or the model as their answer. within coaching, I've always observed that people ask very kind of colourless guiding questions rather than they're not content filled. And because the person's to do that.
And it's the same within Lego series play, which is, I'm not going to tell you how to build your model. You can tell me what it is. It's yours. It's your answer. There's authenticity in that, which goes with the person. I think that's hugely helpful. So what's the most exciting thing you've done with it? What, Lego series play? I did a consultation for a housing association that have got thousands of properties across the kind of Midlands and London area.
And they had a real kind of quandary about what to do about the process about when a tenant gives back a house and they have to turn the house around within a certain amount of time to get it back onto the market for renting. And it was one of these processes where they had lots of stakeholders who different things, know, from the from the agent to the person who does the decorating to the person who does the boiler. They just had all these multiple stakeholders that they had to kind of manage.
And they wanted to know whether it was possible to kind of model that system of how it works and whether there could be some improvement. And I have absolutely no idea about housing, but I kind of said, yeah, let's have a go at modeling your system. And so, yeah, we did that.
And it... with 20 people around, I was probably biting off more than I could chew at that point, because I probably could have done with another pair of eyes in the room, but I worked a room of 20 with Lego and we got them to build the system of how that process happens. And we actually created a kind of a model in the middle of the table, which had all the elements that were required in that process, where people were and some of the things that impacted that system.
And then we roleplayed through it to find out Was there any learning that could be done that could improve this process? And we ended on a piece which I always call insights and action, which is after we've done this, what do we know about ourselves and this system that we did before we started? And we kind of catalog those. And then the killer one, is which are the most important and what do we need to do about them? And that was great fun.
And like lots of consultations, communication always features highly. But it was really interesting just how where the points of communication in their system came up. I think six months after I'd done it, I went back to have a conversation with the person who'd done it with me or kind of contracted me to do it. And he said, all those things you put in place, they've been really good.
And I kind of because, you know, if you're going into a place and they don't give you feedback instantly, even though you ask for it, but to hear about someone who's saying, yeah, we put into place this thing. So one of the things they talked about was actually our team. we do need to kind of see each other every now and again. we can't operate as kind of stakeholders that are completely not near each other. Now, I wonder how they've got on during COVID.
But yeah, that was something that was good fun. Yeah. I mean, that sounds a little bit complex, but that's one thing I really enjoyed doing because it was very interesting seeing all these people getting very passionate about this housing issue. And I have not got a clue what they were talking about, really. That sounds like coaching to me, Ben. I guess we're in that Venn diagram, aren't we, together somewhere? Yeah, think so.
And I think for me, it was a real reminder, because I know nothing about coaching is a really good place for me not to actually, I've got nothing to contribute. Yeah. It's great. So you just process, really. Yeah. Actually, that's true, isn't it? Because the less you know, the less you have an opinion.
Yeah, I remember you talking about the wavy people, you know, and sometimes a little bit of contextual content knowledge suddenly creates a kind of this huge crowd of wavy people where you might have a view on it.
Whereas I think if you could just dispense with that or erase that or just pause it for a while, your questions will always be focused on the process then rather than rather than trying to kind of draw people to what you think is important, because actually, you know, got 20 professionals around a table. And their collective wisdom about this just needed to be brought out and heard differently. And that doesn't require anything from me other than can I help you do that?
So that's what I do really. Yeah. Yeah. And how's it been in lockdown? Well, LEGO Series Play is a very hands-on face. I've got to be honest, it's been really tough. I've been really grateful for the work I've been doing at Solent University, keeping me active and afloat. However, I've done some exciting things with LEGO Series Play in lockdown. And a little bit of that took a little bit of an investment on my part as to how on earth you do LEGO Series Play online.
I kind of connected with a few friends and we've learned how to do that. And I've done a couple of now courses in how to do Lego series play online. It does involve shipping Lego to people. So everyone has Lego. Not, not a good thing. Surely it is, but not the big boxes that I have, there's a certain size of kit you can get, which has got about 200, 300 bricks in it and, and some figures and we send that out to people and you can do it. But also during lockdown.
I've been kind of rallying around the community of Lego series play facilitators and with a friend and a couple, sorry, and with a couple of people from a forum I was on, we've launched this initiative called LSP Connect. And LSP Connect is a, if you like, a liminal gathering space for facilitators to encourage each other. And we've run three online conferences, which is just brilliant. So we've had 60 people from 30 countries gathering in an online space for four hours.
And I published two magazines and I'm on my fifth podcast. yeah, so what we're trying to do is trying to find LSP facilitators who are doing interesting stuff. And they either come along to our online gathering where we run what we call conversations, which is right up your street, I think, isn't it? And what we do is we get each of them to make a 10 minute video. which we then put up on a site.
And if you're interested in what they're saying, come along to their conversation in the space and it's great. We've had someone from Cirque du Soleil in there. We've had who uses Lego series play to kind of map out the creative stuff that they're doing. We've had someone who has been trying to revolutionize and improve the world of dating for business women using Lego series play, which is just brilliant.
Wow. Yeah. Other things we've come across on the podcast, we've connected with a lady in America who has been using Lego series play to work with people who are suffering and very ill with Alzheimer's. And that's been brilliant just hearing the story and it's just humbling. And one of the things we've been trying to breed into this community is let's do generosity and community really well. And so we get so the person I do it with we get lots of calls from people, can you start an email list?
go, no, we're not doing email list. We run it through LinkedIn. We're doing this as a, we're trying to do it in what we call a very light fashion travel light. Yeah, so, you know, with LSP Connect, go and check it out. It's on, if you go LSP Connect, all one word, LSP, stand for Lego Series Play. But we've had, we've had, We've had someone from Lego come and speak at our conferences.
So we're starting to make some waves and get known, but our mode is to encourage people to have a go and try something. So we're into what we call the pushing the boundaries of Lego series play. So the technique and the methodology is, okay, it's very business oriented, but what else can you do with it? Where else might it come from? And so we had someone talking about, what's it called? design thinking, we've had people who are saying how you might do it with coaching.
So we just, lots of conversations and it's just a very fruitful and fertile place to be. So that's kept me energized during lockdown, Claire. Sounds like you found a tribe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and Lego series play, even though it's quite small, is hugely tribal. It really is. And we're trying to get on with everyone is our job. We just want to kind of, Hey, we do Lego series play. We're not to pass judgment on what other people do. We're... We just want to encourage the best in everyone.
Sounds wonderful. Yeah, yeah, it's, I have had to learn how to do desktop publishing, but you know, these skills will never go away. I feel a bit old for that kind of stuff really, but it's good fun. It's never too late, right? no, too right. So if people want to listen to your podcast, Ben, what's it called? It's called the LSP Connect podcast and it's on our website. I'm still trying to work out how to pump it across to Apple or Podemo or something, but...
You can go to our website, lspconnect.events. It's a great thing. And there are five podcasts up there. They are very, very amateur. Okay. Because, because guy and art guy who's my friend who I do it with. We have such good fun and we just go down, we just go down the rabbit hole sometimes with, that's really interesting we start asking subsequent questions that we look at our notes and go, yeah this is going to be a 25 minute podcast and we're now 40 minutes in.
So, we go with interest into those things. What notes. Blank page here so. No, it's interesting. We try to write some questions because one of the things, one of the questions we ask in our podcast is that Lego cut the company, I've got these things which are the five characteristics of playful engagements. And one of the things that's really beautiful is one of the characteristics of play is that it brings joy. so we're just trying to, we just think there's so much good stuff out there.
Why aren't we promoting this? So we're just promoting to people, you know, The five characteristics of play that Lego have are actually life bringing. sometimes so what we're trying to do is so we ask what we often ask a question based on one of the five characteristics of play, which is great. That's amazing. I you've made me think about something I heard somebody say at a conference I was at online this week and her name is Nubantu from South Africa.
And she said, Seymour, hear more, love more, illuminate. Which is what you're talking, be more, do less, is her final thing. I need to talk to her about putting play more in there. Yeah, I mean, I remember when the Xbox first came out from Microsoft, they used to have this concept of play more.
And I think as a society, have, we really have this, we're really growing in the area of there is something very special about play, you know, as to whether it's expensive Lego kits or computer games, but there's something around. around it that's really important. And there's a guy called Pat Kane who used to be in the pop band called Hue and Cry, but he's a writer and thinker now and he's written a book called The Play Ethic.
And what he does in that book is he explores and kind of works through what would life be like if we used play as our main driver. So if you think about the phrase the work ethic, he says, well, that's dominated our world for nearly kind of know, the kind of industrial work ethic for two centuries. What about if we try to live our life in terms of productivity and enterprise, but use play as the driver?
He's not trying to say do away with targets and goals and meaningfulness, but where might play take us in a way which might be different? I think one of the brilliant things about play is that real good play is community building, it's collaborative, It's imaginative, it's sometimes unstructured and all of those things I think are things skills that we need more than ever now.
You know, learning to collaborate in a world which has, you know, for a long time, you know, leadership has all been about the person. Whereas now it's, I think as Chris Lewis, the author says, it's about the ship. Forget about the leader, it's about the ship. It's about what we do together. It's our endeavors and our enterprise. And for me, Pat Kane and his book starts to explore this world about how could we actually tap into the benefits of play in our society?
Whereas it's kind of frowned upon a bit, I think, because it's infantile. That links me back to the last podcast when we were talking about the difference between I-ness and we-ness and you're describing we-ness, aren't you? Yeah, it's countercultural to all of our established organisations. So education, even though there are collaborative models, is all I-ness. Qualifications are I-ness. You wouldn't it be great if a community could get a qualification? You know, shared qualification.
I'd love that. But yeah, I love the I-ness, we-ness thing. That sounds amazing. Well, I've only just started reading the last book you recommended to me, Ben. Which was that? The Art of Gathering. isn't it good? Priya Parker. Well, I've only just kind of page one stuff. So I shall put the... You cost me money. Yeah, I've got to be honest there. Yeah. It's, and there's no vow on books, is there? you can't really claim it back. Sorry. Well, I should put the play ethic on my wishlist.
I recommend what you do is you go and try and look out maybe an article online about him, see whether that floats your boat. Because it's a chunky read. I have a reading chair in my office, so there's a good place. Is that where you put your books and you mean to read them? I have a table to put them on. At the moment it's covered in tools. drills and hammers. It's been amazing talking to you Ben, always I go away with something that makes me think and wonder and then spend money.
The internet is a wonderful place. Do Google these people to see whether they float your boat before you buy their books. I will. But I'm glad you like Priya Parker. I like the one thing she said, which was one thing that always leaves me is when planning a meeting, not only think about who you want to be there, also think about who you don't want to be there. I think it's amazing. That's amazing. Anyway, anyway, that's a little controversial.
if people want to talk to you about Lego, so you play, how do they get in touch with you? So you can get me at ben.misen at ideasalchemy.net ideas alchemy being all one string of letters, which when I put my company together didn't realize would be really quite hard to spell out loud and check out my website, which is www.ideasalchemy.net Look me up on LinkedIn as well. That's a good place. It's kind of Facebook for the slacker business generation.
So yeah, I mean, Facebook's becoming a bit more like a sorry. LinkedIn's becoming a bit more like Facebook at the moment. There's so many things on there, but that's where I am. Okay. Or you touch with you and you can put me in touch with them. Okay. So you can get me info at 3dcoaching.com. Ben, thank you so much. So I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with my friend, Ben Misen. Have a good day. Thank you. Bye bye.
Bye. Hi, we hope that you can join me for drinks at the Coaching Inn to launch 3D Coaching's book group, where we're going to be reading Simplifying Coaching. Wherever you are in the world, you're welcome to bring your coffee or your beer. I'll be sharing the story behind the book and answering your questions. Find out more about our book group that will be launched on the 5th of May through any of our social media channels, through LinkedIn, 3D Coaching, Twitter.
at 3D Claire or Facebook 3D Coaching. Hope to see you there.