This is The Coaching In, a podcast from 3D Coaching. So hello, it's Claire Pedrick and on The Coaching In today, I'm in conversation with Martin Oduor Otieno and Sophie Bruas from the Africa Executive Coaching Convention. So Martin, tell us about you. So thanks Claire. My name is Martin Oduor Otieno and I am the chair of the Africa executive coaching convention. My life is really from the corporate sector.
I've been in leadership and more recently chief executive of a large bank in East Africa, working consulting. I've been in coaching now for about six years. Recently got my PCC accreditation with ICF. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Yeah. And, and that is who I am. Claire. Good. Well, it's very good to have you on the podcast today. And I'm sure we'll find out more about you as you talk about what you're learning. Sophie, tell us about you. Yeah, thank you, Claire. So my name is Sophie.
I'm a board member at the African Executive Coaching Council. And I've been also chairing the convention committee. And I'm executive coach, but I'm also a faculty on the coach program, a mentor coach and a trained supervisor. And I was putting my thumbs up, Martin. mention is PCC because I've been part of this journey. felt very, very privileged. Thanks Sophie. That's it. And I've been in Africa for nearly 30 years now and in Kenya for 15. So I often notice that I say we, feeling very African.
Glad to hear it, Sophie. So my question to you is, this was a dream that you lovely people had been having for quite a long time. And suddenly we had those three half-day sessions live online with people from all over the continent. So how did that feel? I will let Sophie go through the details of that because she was actually the chair of the convention of the AES convention.
But as chair of the council, I think I was completely... you know, really, really excited that we're able to get the convention going. You know, this is our inaugural convention. The AACC was set up in the last few years and it's run by volunteer boards. We've been able to get, you know, board members from right across the continent, right from South Africa, from Central Africa, that is Zimbabwe, West Africa, and of course Kenya and Uganda.
And so we kind of were a pan-African organization, and it's all run on a volunteer basis. And so when we set out a couple of years ago thinking about this convention, first it was going to be a physical face-to-face convention, and then COVID happened. So we had to move it from 2020, 2021, and then just begin to think about the infrastructure for running it, how to get people in, the resources, the content, et cetera, et cetera.
So I'm quite delighted that we're able to get it through to get all those people that you've mentioned there. I think at one point, Sophie, we had in excess of 250 people attending on day one, I suspect. And even at the closing session yesterday, we had more than 150 people at some point. So for us as a council, Claire, really excited about this, really excited about the quality of the conversations, the quality of participants.
the outcomes, the fact that it gave people a platform to really explore what is important for them in the space of coaching. But Sophie is the guru here in terms of the convention. She spent sleepless nights trying to get this thing through. So let me get her to speak more about it. Go on then, Sophie. Thank you, Martin. Well, wasn't alone. Thanks, Aliyah, I wasn't alone. of your question, Claire, and I think about how I felt yesterday night when we debrief.
I was almost like, I was completely overwhelmed at the end of the day three. It was really hard to express because there was a lot of mixed emotion. was a lot of, but I think one that dominates is the sense of pride that we have done something that was phenomenal. That was super ambitious. I think we went into that, you say it was a dream, I think we went into that very candidly. And we were having lots of ideas and so we will do this and we will do that.
And when we started putting them together, we realized how much work it was. So it would be a lie to say that it was it was easy. It wasn't easy. But but the it was it was fun. Not every time. But it was worth it, it was fun. And at the end, I felt very privileged.
I feel very proud and I feel very privileged because I think that what we've done is very unique and also gives, it's a lovely platform and springboard for moving forward with what the continent, I wouldn't say needs because I wouldn't. who am I to say that, but more could do. So it's pushing that ambition forward. Yeah. That's great. And can I say what I observed as a participant? I'm very good to hear that. Well, we were in Africa.
We were not in Kenya or Zimbabwe or South Africa or Ghana or Nigeria. We were in Africa. So everybody had their right size place. because everybody was in their own place and I found that really moving. because everybody took their right size place in the convention and that was such a beautiful thing.
That's actually true, Claire, because when I just reflect on the conversations yesterday, and even if, as I think about the people from the different parts of the continent, they were talking about Africa. I don't actually, remember or recall anybody talking about their own country. I think they were talking about the continent, Africa, and what coaching means to us and that kind of stuff. So you are correct there, Claire.
It was, I just thought that was extraordinary and it made me think about Africa in the world. And so I think it'd be interesting to explore some of the learnings. So I guess a couple of questions for you to think about. One is what's the most significant thing you personally learned and what surprised you about what you personally learned? I'm happy to go.
I think that one thing that really strikes me throughout that convention is the sense of humanity, is that sense of we need to preserve that, we need to anchor our coaching around that. And it was very refreshing to hear it from the coaches, but also from the user of coaching. And on day one, had really, and the intention was to invite, to give some voice to the users.
And we have people from the telecom, people from the financial sector, people from, and until day three, we had the NGO sector that were there. And I think fundamentally what really makes it, not surprising, but anchoring is that sense of humanity that we need to preserve. And this we-ness that Dr. Dumia Magatela was talking about. I think for me, it's really something that resonated with me and stays with me as I coach as well. I think it's really important that it was here. Wow, thank you.
What about you, Martin? For me, was just kind of reflecting on coaching and Africa because coaching is obviously a concept that is very much a Western concept and the way that it's been introduced. But the conversation at the convention was very much around the African storytelling.
And therefore what was coming through for me is infusion of this coaching and storytelling because as we grew up in Africa, sitting down at the feet of elders and learning from the stories and growing up and maturing in leadership or whatever it is that we are doing through this storytelling. And therefore through this convention, trying to see, right, so we in Africa do storytelling, right? We are talking about coaching. How do we infuse this and have a model here?
we still delivers within the context of Africa, right? And so my reflection was really around, you know, bringing those two pieces together into one piece and what are the learnings there and how does it then help the context of growth and development and to Sophie's point, humanity and leadership, you know, on the continent. So that was quite profound for me sitting through the convention. Do know, as you talk about storytelling, I'm just looking behind me. I'm just going to get something.
Just one second. In terms of storytelling, I was sent this about three weeks ago. So this is a carving of a hand holding an egg from Ghana. Have you seen this before? No. So Barack Obama had this on his desk. when I came back from working in Kenya in the 1980s, My first manager in the UK had this carving on his desk. And he said to me, you need to remember this for your whole career. Power is like an egg. It's a Ghanaian proverb. Power is like an egg. If you hold onto it too tightly, it breaks.
And if you don't hold onto it tightly enough, it breaks. He said, I want you to remember that. And I think... that that carving has a huge amount to teach us about power and presence in coaching. because our conversations are like an egg. If we hold onto them too tightly, coaching doesn't work. And if we don't hold onto it enough, it doesn't work either. So I just published a book which has got a chapter in it about power and partnership.
And I described this carving and he contacted me and he said, hand has stayed, I'm going to cry. This hand has stayed with me for long enough. It's time it has a new place. has a new place to go where it can continue doing some good learning. So it arrived in a parcel. But I really love what you said, Martin, about the story. And I think there's something about what does Africa uniquely bring to the table in coaching?
And it's a lovely parallel, Claire, that this traveled all the way from Africa to your desk in the UK. I think that is where we are. It makes me emotional now. I think it's a big part of what the ground we have to cover now in storytelling is to say the story the way we want to say the story, but also we still a story loud enough that is heard outside of the continent.
that there is this a lot of we heard about the African wisdom and all that aspect that are also carried and how can we leverage from it in the way we coach. And I think it's really a task that we need to take moving forward. Yeah. I think it's, you know, that context thing that we're talking about is quite important. Yesterday, think it was, it was Philippe Rosinski at his session yesterday when he was talking about his experience in Japan and somewhere else.
And when he made that point about the competency around direct communication, and he was saying in one context, direct communication is fine, in another context actually, it is not. And therefore you got to find your way around. So for me, it's really around discovering those kinds of things in the African space and sort of saying, what is it that then works and what doesn't work?
And therefore, what is it that we can... we can co-create using what we know about coaching, but in our context so that it's not seen as this foreign thing that has been brought to us by somebody else. and I think that's Sophie, that's the point that Doomi keeps making, isn't it about this? And also that lady from the South African lady yesterday who was talking about delivering coaching to the Nubantu, delivering coaching to the rural areas and to schools and curriculum, et cetera.
I thought those were some very powerful lessons coming out of yesterday's session also. But I also like what Joe was saying around courage and this eight level of courage or the eight aspect of courage. And one was being courageous to also challenge our cultural biases, such as this high power distance and how are we going to challenge and say what needs to be said. And I think that was another thing. this discussion really sparked a lot of interest even when we were preparing for that panel.
And I think, again, it's something that we need to maybe expand about around courage and how are we courageous. I want to give an example.
Today I was facilitating coach training and we looked at, I was listening to session and the participant is in his 60s past and and he says how can I interrupt my coach he was talking so much and how I couldn't say and I said like but you need to find your way because it's not what I'm going to tell you how you interrupt is you are who you are with your experience coaching this lady that is a senior female leader and and definitely you won't interrupt. because that's part of who you are.
So it's like, how do you invite? How do you do it your way? And I think that's to link with what Martin, what you just said around those competencies and pushing also, it was also David Kletterberg that was talking about those competency have a very cultural angle, but yeah, I want to challenge him and saying, it's what we do with it. Because those competencies, they have breadth and depth and it's how we live with it that makes it even more alive.
You know, the other interesting thing, Claire, yesterday for me was, you know, that conversation around coaching models. you know, the fact that, I think, Sajib Bola, who was talking about this, fact that when you start your coaching journey, of course, you've got all these models and therefore I'm this coach and I'm that and I'm there and therefore you kind of stick to it. But as you go along on your journey, The models are somewhere at the back of your mind, but actually you're just coaching.
And when Ajebola was talking about the model in West Africa, for example, and how they've been able to do this, I thought that was also quite interesting for the participants to just reflect on. Sometimes we might get too tied down about models and forget what the actual purpose and the ultimate objective is and what the client is trying to get to. So I found that as kind of another really good learning out of yesterday's session. Yeah. You're speaking to the model hating coach.
I think there's a real danger that we can listen to the model more than we listen to the person who's with us. And actually at its heart, all that coaching is, is two human beings having a conversation together about one of us. so that they move forward somehow in their thinking. I loved what Nabantu said. Did you see, she said in the chat, see more, hear more, love more, illuminate more, be more and do less.
So I went straight and added her on LinkedIn, because I thought I completely agree with you. See more, hear more, love more, illuminate more, be more and do less. And I think one of the things that I noticed yesterday, was that people were speaking about love really normally. And that, I don't know whether that was specific to the conference, but certainly that's not something that I hear in Europe or in the work that we do in other parts of the world.
People talking about love in the context of work. That's lovely to hear. That's lovely to hear from you sitting in the UK and having followed us throughout that convention. think it's really important is that element where I was talking about humanity and love and I think it was Mireille that was making Mireille that speaks seven languages and using like the heart, the coeur and it was in corazón in Spanish. But it was really, yeah, she did, I think many connected like that.
Yes. And that conversation about head count and heart count. Yeah. But you know, when I was re-listening to, I was listening to Dumy's recording that, well, he did a webinar for us that happened in between the session around Ubuntu. And he was, it was really talking about greetings and how we greet and how important it is that I see you and how I see you in the greeting as a whole person.
So, and again, that today, Partizibin was telling me it's like they moved from South Africa where they have spent some time during COVID and so back to the UK. And it is like, and nobody says hello in the street. And it was really important that how do we greet? think to me has a really important point around how do we slow down?
I think it's in Liberia, I remember when I was living there, where people cross and they say the greetings and they continue and it takes so long and they continue moving past. So the greetings. are quite organized and long, it will really continue as long as the person crossed the road and it's really important. I the point of... Sorry. No, no, I just want to say is just because I remember people were telling me, how is the body and from a European side, it was like, it's none of your business.
And it was very much I felt like I think it was the first country, African country I lived in. And I felt really like, how come you asking me out how I am like in my body. And I think it's it's fundamentally that and that we take, we take from Africa in Africa in and we should take in our coaching is that we see the whole person. And we probably have access to that. And it's so fits because, you know, that's a point of connection. I mean, that's a point of initial connection as it is.
And when Dumi says, I see you, right? In here, even in my own community, that is how we greet. I see you, Aneni, you know, I see you. And you also see me. And so when it is the holistic person that you're seeing, it's no longer, it moves from the I to the we because we are connected through that greeting. And that conversation can go on for a long time. I remember conversations between my father and his brother and they lived in different homes in the village.
And they would be escorting one another upwards and downwards several times. And they were just kind of... having this nice conversation about them, you and it's just part of this connection and part of this culture.
And that's why when we come to coaching and sometimes when you're looking at coaching, in the context here, you may find that the first part of that coaching takes much longer than it would in other cultures because you are trying to have that connection and that connection might be longer. than the one minute, you know, hi, hi, you know, and what is it that you want to accomplish today in this session? So that comes much later because you got to really connect with this person.
And I guess this is probably one of the learnings here that perhaps if we are talking about, you know, the coaching process, that there's something there also, which is going to be an African kind of model around coaching. how you get into it. matter. Greetings matter. And Nobuntu was also pushing back around model, more really holding, proposing to hold the cultural framework, more like looking at the cultural framework where we can be and where we can coach and owning that.
And I think it's an important part of exploring that. when we think about rather than model, but maybe approaches, maybe and looking at it in plural, that there is many and yet we were one, were talking about, we were in Africa, we are talking about Africa, but we also more than one, we are more than the sum of, and I think that's really important as well is, and for me, a bit of a sadness for this convention.
But I said the challenge for the next one is that we had very little connection with North Africa. And we really need to make those connections. We exploring West Africa, but the Francophone, and we had met a little bit of connection before the convention as a way to start. But again, we need to expand because we're missing out big time. if we leave out the Lusophone countries, if we leave out the French, the Francophone countries and the North African part of the continent.
I think that's something that I think we need to make more effort to connect. One of the things that... Go on Martin. No, no, no. I was just supporting what Sophie was saying about North Africa. I mean, you find that it's... Yeah, I think it's a discussion point. It's important to find a way of bringing it in. The fact that most of North Africa is associated with Middle East is something that we... perhaps we also need just to reflect on there, Sophie. Yeah, but important point.
Two of the words that I didn't really hear through the convention, but I heard a lot, were the buzzwords, I guess, in Europe are things like somatic coaching, which is about the use of the body, and systemic coaching, which is about the recognition that we're part of something bigger. And I think as we're talking now, it's becoming even clearer to me that those were both totally present all the time, but not described as something special. They're sort of just, this is how it is.
The we-ness that we were just talking about. And the fact that it's, see you and the whole of me is me, you know, the wholeness of meeting one another. It's interesting, isn't it, that in some cultural contexts, those things need to be remembered. And in other cultural contexts, they are just simply present. And that's why we need to maintain that connection globally that we don't miss out. We need mirrors. We need what you're doing just now to hold it and say it was present.
But you only notice that it's present because someone feels that it's absent somewhere else or it needs to be said. And so it's really important. that we maintain connection, that we don't evolve and grow in a vacuum. And I think in the convention, there was something very important and there was huge debates within the, I think it was in the board to look at, do we want something really inclusive of African and having only speakers that are only African speakers?
Or do we want also to have speakers that are from other parts of the world? And I really think it is important that we are, as you said, positioning ourselves globally. We were in Africa, but in the context of the world. So I think for me, it's a good point. Yeah. I thought we had, we got a really good mix of speakers. Sophie, just getting kind of the the fathers of coaching as it were, interacting with some of the coaching authorities on the continent as well.
So that you didn't feel that you are missing anything or you are being, you are enclosing yourself, and therefore not being able to hear some of the experiences that would really be important as we move forward. And the question of partnership, which also came up, think it's, David Kutterback also who brought this up yesterday that perhaps what we are looking for here is some kind of partnership.
What is it that the context of Africa can bring us a learning or experience to the rest of the world, to Europe and to America and to the Far East, et cetera? That was important because otherwise you end up secluding yourself in your own little cocoon. And yet we are all connected across the globe as we realize these days more and more. This morning, I was at the launch of a mentoring programme for leaders of colour in the health service.
And they were they all are going to be listening into this because they're really interested to hear what you have to say. So there's a real cross fertilisation isn't there of learning from different places for different contexts. So one of the things that we were asked to think about was unfinished conversations. So what are the conversations that are unfinished that you recognize need to be continued?
Really for you, for the continent of Africa, and Sophie, you've already said we need to include the North, and for the world, what are the unfinished conversations that need to be continued? Martin, would you like to go? Well, mean, as we said earlier, Claire, know, this was our inaugural convention as the AACC.
The AACC is the go-to aggregator for coaching on the continent, bringing together the ecosystem, which has got all the players, the demand side of coaching, the suppliers of coaching services, the academia in terms of research publications, et cetera, trying to create, you know, greater access to coaching across different things.
what I see as some of the areas of unfinished business is really using this opportunity that we've created through the convention to continue to deliver the mandate of AACC, which is bringing together this ecosystem. looking at areas of opportunity for growth of coaching on the continent, looking at what may be impediments to coaching at the moment or to its growth. And a number of things came up yesterday. I think, issues such as access to coaching and the levels to which coaching goes.
So if coaching is being seen as an elitist kind of thing, how do we bring it down to the grassroots? And there was a big conversation about that in the panel. yesterday. It even covered things like the cost of coaching. Coaching is seen as a very expensive activity today. How do we make sure that everybody on the continent can benefit through that?
I see those are some of the kind of unfinished business here for us to think about how we can actually bring this and embed coaching almost as a culture across a different establishment, starting from schools, rural areas, communities. and then the workplace, of course. And there was a point about coaching in government in public sector, where again, there's very, very little of it going on at the moment. How do we create that awareness, you know, the benefits of coaching at that level?
Because leadership in Africa, I mean, political leadership, for example, I would suspect that there's very little coaching happening at that point, at that level. And Jibola mentioned that as well yesterday. So those are some of the areas, Claire, that I can... that I can think of, but Sophie has of course this intellectual mind about some of these things. So I'd like to defer to her to talk more about this. Thank you.
You know, was laughing when I was listening at your laugh, Claire, when I offered to Martin to answer first and listening at your laugh make me think like, is that going to be perceived as I am? defaulting, like I don't want to answer and then I pushed Martin forward. And it was like really a shift of culture because the intention behind me asking Martin, do you want to go first or you go first was very much out of respect.
And it was like, so I thought it was interesting to see as we are sitting in different places and different continent that this important of how do we perceive things and how do we pay attention to that loft? I was like, but maybe I pass on a different message by doing this. So it was really, and you said it beautifully.
think there was no much to say, but for me, the aspect of access and has to do really a lot around this democratization of coaching really is big and it's something that we need to tackle because it involves the aspect of supply of coaches, do so training the quality as well as making sure that there is sustainability that is not just a fag, that is not just a moment. And so how do we anchor and we ensure that there is sustainability? as well as access, as you said, Martin, the cost of it.
Coaching is expensive. Coaching is seen also, there is a little bit of snobism, I think, around coaching. It's like, is the coach? And we have a bit in the continent, on the continent, a bit of like African coaches are not good enough. So therefore I'm going to get coaches outside of Africa. So I think that we have a bit of mindset around as well to work on. to increase access. So there is a lot of work. There is a lot of work and that's exciting. I think that definitely.
Yeah. And I think there's something, isn't there, that coaching is very special because it empowers the development of another person. And yet we want it to be very ordinary and as you say, for everybody. And I think that globally there's a bit of an elitism about coaches. I'm a coach. So I'm a little bit special, but actually we're not, we're simply somebody who facilitates the thinking of somebody else. So, and there's power in names. So that's a really interesting one.
So my question to you is, if people want to join in the conversation, how do they do that? The first way will be to continue join us on the through our website and then you can find us with the ACC, AECconseal.com. So that will be the first way. think we are making available all the recordings. So we are non-profit and we all volunteers here. So it might be a small fee to access it. is what is going to help us to continue and plan our next activities.
But you will be able to access the recording of this first convention. There will be some more activities. One other thing that has been really interesting is maybe two I would like to mention. One is the overwhelming or the overwhelming enthusiasm of our speakers. Every single person we ask said, yes. and say, yes, I will do it for free. And yes, I'm going to make everything that's available for you to use beyond the convention.
And I saw there was a huge generosity and huge enthusiasm and wanted to be part of it. And we had to refuse people. We had to push back. was like, and I think we had 36 in the panel and it's just like phenomenal. So that's one thing. The second part is an appetite and a desire to increase the connection across the continent. So that's also something that we want to continue looking at on how do we continue this conversation around courage, for example, people want to talk about that.
How are we courageous around ethic? How are we ethical in how we coach in in supporting our client to be ethical, all those big conversation that we want to have without the title of this is who and who, just simple conversation between friends. And I think that's really important that we need to play a role in that. So here, that's where we're gonna see us, definitely. Martin, have I forgotten something around where to find us and what's next?
Maybe the hundred coaches, that's what's coming next or? Yeah, that's coming next. I mean, there's going to be plenty of activities, I would just add that. people connect with us through the website. There's going to be a lot of information coming out there about the activities. We will of course be working on our next convention as well. But in between there's lots and lots of things. And you can see Sophie really smiling broadly about this because she knows exactly where this is heading.
That she's only chaired one convention. She's got to chair more than one convention. So this is some of the ways, yes. But, and of course on social media, there's gonna be a lot of stuff happening. So people need to follow us on our social media links and the like, yeah. And as I mentioned earlier, trying to get into more partnerships with different like-minded institutions. Cause ultimately the objective is to really drum up coaching on the continent, drum up coaching.
make the connections that are required, know, create that great awareness around the benefits of coaching and so on. So that's where our focus is going forward. But we are quite happy that, I mean, the convention has launched us really well. It's given us the credibility through just the presence of the various people at the conference. And the board is really excited to go and raring to go. And so we can't wait. That's fantastic.
people can find out about your social media channels by going to the website, Africa Executive Coaching Council. So if they search for that in Google, they'll be able to find all your social media connections. Yes, that's correct. it sounds like we're coming to the end of our conversation. And my final question for you is, what do you want to say to the rest of the world? That's a nice small question. If there was one thing you could say to the rest of the world, what would it be?
So Sophie, let me give you this opportunity now to go first. for the stunting. Hear us, see us. Thank you. Martin. think for me it's going to be around the opportunity is great. We need the partnerships. We need to. continue to grow leadership on the continent. And therefore, anybody who is aligned to that objective, we are open to conversations to take this forward. partnerships. Partnerships. So sorry.
Yeah, I just want to, I think I was trying to connect and really like what is connecting me with this continent at I'm part of is think it's the energy and I want to invite people to connect with the energy of the continent. It's, it's just mind blowing. And if sometimes you feel a little bit gloomy in Europe and sad and things are not moving. And so just connect with our energy because it's just moving the resilience, the possibilities, the enthusiasm.
And I think that was so much present in this convention. And I think the thing, the thing I first heard from you was when Paul Mussocki and I had a conversation in the first podcast. And he said that one of the things that he noticed is that people are making coaching their own. And he introduced the concept of Ubuntu coaching at that point.
And so what I would want to say from what I've heard over the three sessions is the rest of the world, have lots to learn from what Africa is doing for itself. And we need to learn and we need to make meaning from that. and so that we can make stuff our own. So, yeah. So thank you so much, Sophie and Martin, for spending this time with me at the end of a very busy week, when I'm sure you've been up late and doing all sorts of things to pull off this amazing event.
So final words as we finish, Martin. Lots of excitement, as I say, ready to go. ACC is becoming of age and therefore join us, be part of this exciting journey on the continent. And thank you very much, Claire. Well, thank you. Sophie, anything to add? I just want to say thank you to the team that was behind all this because they've been absolutely phenomenal as well. And whether they were somewhere in South Africa, somewhere in the UK, somewhere in Nairobi, somewhere all over the world.
was like such, they put so much effort. So, and to you really Claire, thank you because we need mirrors. We need mirrors to tell us where we are at. It's a pleasure. It's been such a great learning journey for me. So thank you both for coming. I'm Claire Pedrick. I've been in conversation with Martin Odua-Otieno and Sophie Brewas about the Africa Executive Coaching Council.
Hi, we hope that you can join me for drinks at the Coaching Inn to launch 3D Coaching's book group where we're going to be reading Simplifying Coaching. Wherever you are in the world, you're welcome to bring your coffee or your beer. I'll be sharing the story behind the book and answering your questions. Find out more about our book group that will be launched on the 5th of May through any of our social media channels through LinkedIn, 3D Coaching, Twitter. at 3D Claire or Facebook 3D Coaching.
Hope to see you there.