This is The Coaching In, a podcast from 3D Coaching. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm talking to Alex, Alexandru Popa, who is one of the 3D coaching team, who does a lot of work with teams and groups and also works as an executive coach. So Alex, tell us a bit about you. Hi Claire. Okay. I'm an accredited coach. I've been actively coaching individuals in teams for I think six, seven years now.
Though I've done my coach training quite a few years earlier than that, I think what's useful to say is that I've worked internally in organizations in a few countries for about 10 years, and I focused gradually on learning and development, leadership development, coaching, and facilitation work.
And for about one year now, just a bit over one year, I set out to work as an independent coach, and I'm also an associate with 3D Coaching, who we... now know each other for about four years now, don't we? We have, yes. Yeah, I remember we met in some back of beyond in Westminster. That's right. So Alex, we've talked quite a lot about not labeling people and you've done quite a lot of interesting work around coaching critical thinkers, which I love.
So How does that work, the let's not label people and you coach critical thinkers? Well, it's an interesting one. It was a challenge for me to just come up with a label just because of that. And I felt quite uncomfortable to put a label against it because we very often kind of tend to just embody those labels and we talk about labels and such.
And because I've been working in learning and development for quite a few years, I certainly noticed the raft of various ways of putting labels on people through instruments and such and various approaches. Through things like, I'm these four letters and what are your four letters? And we kind of judge each other based on that where we respond in a certain way. Or I am this color and you're that color. And I think that certainly influences how we show up, how we engage with one another.
So in some sense, I've been noticing that and I wanted to kind of stay away from that because what I usually do in my work is to find a personalized way of working with the individual to express our own unique identities. Now I say that and at the same time I recognize that over time I certainly noticed some clusters of certain traits that can be represented together in some populations and I just called that generically a critical thinker.
But it's not with the intent of people wearing that label and just adhering to that in a way that is not useful, but it's a clustering of certain qualities and traits that helps us a bit. make a bit more sense around how we might be able to support them in their development. And help them make more sense of it. Of course. Yeah. It's interesting.
Cause as you speak, I'm thinking about the people that I've coached over the years and not many of them who, who somehow at a deep level, I sense are having two conversations at the same time. And they're having the one that they're having with me with words. And then you can see in their eyes that they're having another one altogether. And I noticed that when I observe that, and say, are you having another conversation at the same time? How affirming that is.
So although that's not a diagnosis, it's an observation that can really support the other person in their development. And I guess this is the same thing, isn't it? No, I fully agree. I've certainly noticed that as well. Very often the inner dialogue that might happen with critical thinkers is quite substantial. and you notice, as you say, the conversation we're having above the table, and you also notice the inner conversation that's happening there and how thoughts are unfolding.
And very often it's happening with a speed that's significantly higher than what they're able to just express through language. So maybe some of the critical thinkers are the, some of the people that I noticed this secondary conversation going on in their, in their head, they would probably also come into your, into your container of critical thinking, wouldn't they? Yeah, I guess so. So what else do you notice in people who, who think like this?
You've talked about how they might be having a secondary conversation and what's going on underneath is different from what's going on above. And I guess that influences how many sessions you have and how long they are and how often you meet. Yes. What else do you notice?
I've had a bit of time to think about this more recently when I was preparing a couple of learning events where I needed to speak about my ideas around critical thinkers and together with a community of coaches kind of unpack some of our experiences around how to best support them in their development for coaching, for example. And I've just written a couple of key words that have stood out for me when it comes to what I understand with critical thinkers.
And I'm... thinking it might be useful to just read that. Yeah. So here's my working definition of it. If that's helpful in any way. you. Critical thinkers are often strong minded, data driven and evidence based, highly structured and logical. They might jump from point A to point D and expect you to really keep up with them. They'll speak the language of processes and optimization. Logical reasoning primes and deterministic problem solving is their expertise.
They might display little patience for the less informed. You might find them in a variety of contexts, often in scientific, technology, legal, and finance roles. That's been my experience of it. And when I shared that with a community of practitioners, we certainly heard a lot of reactions saying, well, I can totally connect to that. I'm a critical thinker, or quite a few of the people I'm speaking with are critical. thinkers where I certainly noticed that with my clients.
So one of the things that I noticed as you were saying that Alex is the idea that they go from A to D and how frustrating that is for coaches who would like them to go back and fill in B and C. Yes. So that requires from the coach a massive tolerance of not filling in the gaps. I fully agree. And if there's something we've learned together in 3D for these types of conversations and rather to go back to BNC is to just ask, where are we now?
Yeah. Yeah. The future focused part of coaching that keeps us going in a future focused direction means don't coach critical thinkers unless you're okay to leave BNC behind. So Alex, what else are you learning about the useful things for the coach to think about in these conversations?
Well, one thing that I think is particularly important is the assumptions and views we might hold as coaches in relation to critical thinkers and working with people who are into technology, who display certain qualities. as the ones that we've described just earlier. I think it's worthwhile kind of examining some of our underlying beliefs and assumptions that we're making.
I've certainly heard quite a few colleagues, peers in the more humanistic professions in the HR world and coaches that I've interacted with over time to say things like, look, I don't do technology where I find techie is very frustrating or rude, or it's very difficult to get them to open up and to express their feelings and what's really going on. And I think it's worthwhile examining some of those assumptions as they definitely impact our ability to be great coaches for the critical thinkers.
because we're all different. So what might that look like? In practice, terms of exploring underlying assumptions, a simple pen and paper exercise would be potentially useful to just write down what assumptions and beliefs am I holding in relation to working with people who might be critical thinkers. And what validity do those assumptions hold? What am I noticing in relation to that and in relation to my ability to do great work?
How am I showing up differently as a result of holding those assumptions? What do I need to let go of and how can I transform those assumptions in service to the work that we need to do together and in service of the best thinking for the other person? because it's not about me. Certainly it's not. Yeah. Yeah. And there could be a real language barrier.
You talked about the humanistic professions, great description, but the different languages spoken in the kind of touchy feely world of some versus a much more critical data-driven world of others. Yeah. So I think one of the reasons, if I think about my experience and just sort of to give some full disclosure, I'm coming from that world as well as a critical thinker. I've really been, parts of me have been represented strongly that way. I've done a bachelor in computer science.
I've always coded, I've thought logically, rationally through stuff. I really enjoy processes and such. So I could well find some of those qualities sort of represented within myself and my inner world. And I've certainly dealt with quite a bit of inner dialogue over time as well. And I've learned how to work with that.
But what I want to say is that it's interesting what's really made the difference in conversations with critical thinkers so that I could get, for example, feedback where people might be saying, we accept you as it seems that you're kind of one of us rather than one of the HR folks kind of showing up to tell us, try this technique or let's do this and that.
And I think where that acceptance came from is from primarily showing up in a very accepting, open way whereby I'm speaking simple English with them rather than, as they might say, giving them the HR fluff that they don't want to hear about. Yeah. And of course at 3D that's our passion with everybody, isn't it, to work with simplicity. Indeed. Indeed. It's funny as you speak, get all this inner, I'm going back to my whole life thinking, am I a critical thinker? Am I not a critical thinker?
I also did a degree in computer science and statistics and scraped through by the skin of my teeth in a world full of aspiring actuaries. Yeah, and probably that's not the world that I belong. or belonged. Yeah, but yeah, interesting. You made me think about all sorts of stuff there, Alex. So what else in your research and in your journey have you observed are useful things about working with this group of people? There's something worth mentioning about physical movement.
I've certainly noticed, and even with the community that we were kind of sharing experiences with, certainly noticed that critical thinkers are very often talented at formulated, what we name wicked problems that can get them stuck. And we know from coaching that physical movements can really help us get unstuck. and for example, see things from a different point of view. So I certainly noticed the benefits of practicing one of the good things we do in coaching, which is physical movement.
And it's quite interesting to transition that into the virtual environment now, whereby we're almost stuck to a chair in front of a computer and we're thinking about, and how does physical movement and getting unstuck look like now in the current context? So I certainly found myself with.
for example, critical thinkers that I was working with and with others with coaching clients and thinkers, inviting each other to kind of stand up and move around the room, which we found tremendously helpful even though we were in an online capacity. Brilliant. And what we know, of course, Alex, is that you need to move into that normally. Yes. And there are lots of normal ways of doing it, there?
Yeah. Which might sound more like let's stand up or shall we stand up rather than I'm going to do an exercise now where I'm going to invite you to stand. Yeah. If it comes very natural, people are very, very easy going to just give it a try. One thing that I've certainly noticed with everyone is not just with critical thinkers, but if it comes about naturally, if it's just a simple act of standing up and seeing things from a different point of view, it can be a tremendous source of new insight.
And for critical thinkers in particular who are extremely gifted and talented at formulated some of the wicked problems that they carry with them. There's often something about what one of my clients recently called a spaghetti in my head that needs sorting out. And it's quite strange and challenging for some to just hold all of that in your head.
And physical movement can certainly help and also can What also might help is to just take stuff out of our own heads and to just display it differently in front of us. So very often we might do simple things like drawing it out, or representing it on a tabletop with some mugs and pens that we might have available just to do a tabletop representation of that, where we might use post-its or anything like that.
But I think there's something there about critical thinkers that I certainly noticed, which is... very often they carry a challenge with them in their heads until they're able to solve it. And with some types of challenges that can be quite useful if there is a deterministic, logical way of looking at things and you can solve that as you go about your daily business. But with some of the complex challenges that we're experiencing nowadays of systemic nature of ever changing shape and form.
It can be quite challenging just to hold it in your own head. And we need to constantly just identify ways of letting go of stuff. We're taking it out of our own heads and displaying it in a different way. We're parking it for the moment. So finding ways of getting it out of your head and looking at it together rather than talking about it. Definitely.
I love the idea of the movement from talking to, which is that dyadic sitting down together thing, to being with, which you've just eloquently described. So what else might we be thinking about when working in this space? I mean, what comes to mind now is an interesting one in terms of, and I've named it structure versus emergence. I've certainly noticed that as coaches, many of us feel comfortable to just work with what shows up in the room, the, and then there with a blank slate.
And for many of us, it might be quite a comfortable way of working. And I've noticed with critical thinkers that quite a few of them need a certain level of clarity around not just the process, but the path that we're going to walk together, at least to a certain extent that they feel comfortable that there is some structure in place. And it's quite an interesting dynamic of how much structure do we need to be able to do the work here and now. What a great question to ask them.
Yeah, it's not interesting. So enough structure and not too much. Yeah. And I've seen that in the team space as well. For example, when I might be working with, for example, a technical leadership team and we might get ready for a team coaching exercise together. And very often, I might have an initial ask from one of the stakeholders to prepare a very detailed agenda. What are we doing at 9.15 and when do we take our first break and what's happening in regards to this and that.
So they want to be very specific around the schedule. And some of it is the organization, but some of it is how we're used to showing up and doing the work. And... as coaches, we're quite comfortable to operate on the far end of that to say, look, we just show up and we notice what's happening in the here and now and just respond to it as it emerges. And that type of language and that type of stance is quite distant from what's critical thinkers usually might embody.
And finding a common ground, which is to just give some structure an initial frame. a container so that we notice the edges of that and we understand some of the process and then just be creative within that space. I've certainly noticed it's just enough most of it. So lots of dancing. Sorry, that is so not critical thinker language. Flexibility and adaptability and agility to move around and be flexible in the moment is really important.
Yeah. Anything else that you've observed is useful for us to be noticing? I think there's something about how we might well integrate a conversation which might initially start as an above the shoulders conversation. We use our heads, our minds, our language to name things, make sense out of them, but we're not just our heads. We're not just our minds, we're our full bodies and it's not useful just to spend time in an above the shoulders conversation, which is strictly rational sometimes.
There's a wealth of insight in other parts of ourselves. And you might think about how we might use and engage our whole bodies, how we might tap into the realm of emotions, how we might use, for example, intuition as part of various things that we do, for example, in decision making.
And I've certainly noticed that if critical thinkers are able to see within us, a demonstration of how to use that in a light way that can demonstrate usefulness, they buy into it and they start displaying it, even though initially maybe not intentionally, but they start embodying that just by noticing those qualities represented in ourselves. So I certainly noticed with critical thinkers that that idea of acting as a catalyst and demonstrating.
those qualities as a coach ourselves around using our whole body, engaging in physical movement, using our emotions, using intuition, sharing what we notice is quite useful for them. And it's not that they don't have availability and openness to do it. It's most often that they haven't really had opportunities or context to do it in a light way so that they start practicing it in a safe environment so that they access different realms of insight and opportunity for them.
So there is definitely a lot of openness and it needs to be introduced lightly, I think. The phrase that came up as you were talking there, Alex, is a phrase that's used by Stuart Reed, who does our presence training for coaches. And he says that one of the things that you can bring to coaching from improv is making an offer. Yeah. think that's a great way of saying other person to decide whether to pick it up or not.
as all those amazing things that you've just spoken of look so different, don't they, when we do what you were describing, which is effectively making an offer, rather than saying, let's do it like this. Yes. And it comes back to the underlying assumptions that we might be holding, for example, when someone might think, these critical thinkers are challenging to deal with because they can't really find the words to just express how they're feeling about stuff.
And you might find yourself in a context where you might ask, how do you feel about that? And get a question back, what do you mean? I've just said what I think about it. Yes, but how do you feel about it, for example? And it's difficult to just grasp that initially. What do you mean with that? And it comes back to, you know, just using plain, simple English in a way that people can just connect to it. Yeah. Go lightly.
Yeah. Wow. So, so you talked a bit about people holding wicked problems in their heads and carrying them around with them. the whole idea about using different ways of engaging with people to enable them to look at that in a different way. What about coming to actions with these people who leap from A to D. Well... It's quite an interesting one. In the coaching conversations very often, they might make a lot of progress once they reach the realm of clarity, let's say.
Very often, we might be together in a state of unknowing, confusion, a lot of questions, and the ability of the critical thinkers to sit in that discomfort is an interesting skill to just develop together. And I've certainly noticed that as we move beyond that into a space of clarity, an emerging clarity, the wheels start spinning and they immediately start getting some interesting insights around how they might move forward or the options they might have.
And what I've learned to do over time is just to allow them the space to just do their thinking. And we just check in. once they've done that, because if they keep me in the loop with all of the things that they're thinking about, it will probably take significantly longer than just allowing them to do their thinking and then we check in. So in terms of going to action, there's something about just allowing them the space to do their thinking.
Maybe just after we've moved away from some of that on clarity and all of those question marks and a space where we don't yet have. a view for how we might be able to move forward and it feels a bit stuck. And you'll, I certainly noticed as they move beyond that, there's a small transformation that we're just able to notice as they re-engage differently, moving beyond that phase to say, I know what I could be doing about this.
So they fire up like a million ideas all of a sudden and they're like, what do you need to do with those ideas? I just like to write them down somewhere and such. So they might write them down and. they might decide to hold them in their head and it's obviously their choice on how they want to just take it forward. And they move to action quite fast. I've noticed certainly an availability to just try out some of the things that they might be thinking about then and there.
So for example, if they're preparing for a conversation, we might just give it a go for them to be able to say it out loud, to practice it in the space that we're together. So in terms of going to action, there's something about doing a lot of the work in our shared space. And for them to decide how they prefer to just take it forward. So leaving the responsibility with them. Of course. I love the thing when you go, when they go, I know, I know that deep knowing that's a sign of transformation.
That's so different, isn't it? From the transactional outcomes that come from some conversations where you can just sense it's it, yeah, it's not transformational. It's not all the way through. And what I've noticed is that the body expresses it. earlier, then you might express it with voice. That's one of our philosophies, isn't it? That the body speaks, that the thinker speaks with their body before they speak with their voice.
So one of the things I notice, Alex, is that people who have quite a black and white way of thinking can often come out with quite binary options, you know, either this is right or that's right. How do you hold that tension so that people can really explore other options? I think there's good reason to why people might be operating like that.
If you think about the realm of logics and deterministic thinking, there's very often, and those are very solid, important areas and disciplines within scientific thinking and for example, engineering, we're very often represented with people who are critical thinkers. Of course, there's usefulness in being able to just think that way and narrow down the options that you have.
And sometimes there is usefulness in just broadening the number of options or reframing the existing ones just to generate new possibilities. very often I do, as you say, you know, come up with a situation where the person might be thinking, I either need to do this or I need to do that. Very often none of those solutions are something that they're interested in choosing in between anyway, because none of them are very appealing.
So. It's an interesting dance to be able to just come up with new ways of thinking to just generate further options. I noticed that polarities, and there's quite a lot written isn't there about polarities, are really useful for people who've got quite a scientific mind. They are a complete mystery to some people. And yet other people find those really useful and there's plenty written, isn't there, on polarities? I fully agree.
I think that's a very useful framework to just explore polarities and the tensions between different points of view and what might sit in the middle of that and such. some people really benefit from that. And sometimes in the spirit of, for example, using physical movement, if, for example, I'm in the room together with another person, and they might say, look, I either do this or do that.
And they might seem that like those two options kind of sit on different sides of a spectrum and they're kind of on the opposite ends of a continuum. We just physically explore what might sit in between or on a scale of that continuum on the floor. So for example, if this is that and that's the other thing as you kind of walk in between those positions, what are you noticing? So encouraging people to stand in their learning. yeah. Fabulous.
So that's a source of not just one extra option, but it can be a realm of new types of options and just not just exploring that scale, but moving outside of that scale to just be able to notice it, to notice the continuum, which is an observer's position, for example, can be yet another source of. insights in terms of what might be the third or a fourth option.
And of course it's not necessarily useful just to generate an infinite number of options in terms of kind of moving forward, but it is a useful skill to develop within ourselves to be able to just expand the number of solutions that we might see in reach or that we feel compelled to just choose between. That moving thing is so much more effective, I think, isn't it, than we ever give it credit for?
I've got someone in my mind's eye who we've done some training with who is a scientist and a critical thinker and in fact now is working in another role. And we were coaching standing up in front of a group. And I said to him, where should we start? And he moved slightly away from me. And then he went, let's start here. And then he looked at me and then he went, no, no, let's not start here. And ran down to the other end of the room and he said, I need to start here.
Yeah. And then I said to him, where do want me to be? And he went, come here. So, really normally using movement again, we've come back to, isn't it interesting? We've come back several times in this conversation to, the fact that body and mind. are both really important in conversations, whatever people's preference. Yes. So as we come to the end of our conversation, Alex, is there anything else that that you want people to know? Or indeed have we finished?
I think what I'd like to say is just really an encouragement. And let me maybe start off with a point of normalizing this. I think what I've been particularly interested to get across is the fact that there is literally, there's nothing wrong with being a critical thinker. And the good qualities that help them get where they are and made them successful are remarkable most often. And it's... it's an absolute pleasure just to notice those qualities within people.
And at the same time, as they develop new capabilities and for example, move into, for example, leadership role and transitioning from a subject matter expert perspective into a leading the team, we're leading the business perspective. It's useful for them just to develop some extra flexibility and range of options of how to respond to the emerging future.
And I just want to make that quite clear in terms of there is nothing wrong with them, there's nothing to be fixed, there's nothing that needs addressing or any shape like that. There's just noticing the fact that all of those wonderful qualities that have brought them to over here and have made them successful are what makes them themselves and it's of their unique identities. And that's wonderful. And there's nothing that we need to just change in relation to that explicitly.
And as they further develop on that journey, there might be useful ways of adding to that and complementing some of the skills that they already have and just support them in doing some of their best thinking as part of their development in ways that they might have not explored in the past, for example, just due to the type of work and thinking that they have been doing until then. And sometimes having someone keeping you company while you're thinking can be really useful. yeah.
Yeah. Great. Well, thank you, Alex. And how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk more? Thank you for the conversation as well, Claire. We do quite a bit of work together in 3D coaching. So if anyone wants to get in touch with me in relation to, for example, team coaching, and we do quite a bit of systemic team coaching, thinking about how the team might benefit from working with a thinking partner in service of their organizations, their clients and humanity at large.
Then we do quite a bit of work within 3D to enable teams to think about that stuff and to progress. And if anyone wants to have a conversation about team coaching, I'm always available at alexat3dcoaching.com. And on a personal note, I guess, if anyone's interested in executive coaching or exploring this realm of critical thinkers more and how we might be able to just best support them, just feel free to get in touch over personal email as well. It's contact at alexandrupopa.com.
That's my website as well. So just feel free to just get in touch over that. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Alex. Thank you