This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. So welcome to this edition of The Coaching Inn, where I'm in conversation with coach Fran Smith, who wrote in from Brazil and said, after we had the 3D book club around Simplifying Coaching, she said, I've read your book. So I said, why don't you come and do a book club edition where you talk about what you're learning. So welcome, Fran. Thank you. Thank you so much, Claire. It's really my pleasure to be here.
I'm very happy to talk about the book. I'm actually reading it for the second time at the moment. Wow. Well, first of all, let's find out a bit about you. So tell us a bit about your coaching journey. Well, my coaching journey began many years ago when I was in England and I was teaching English and I married a Brazilian and I came to, well, let me rewind.
Before that, we went to live in Portugal and I couldn't do anything because I couldn't speak Portuguese and at that time, which was about 30 years ago, it wasn't so cosmopolitan there in Lisbon and I had one option which was teaching English. So I began teaching English and I fell in love again. I fell in love with teaching, having fallen in love with my Brazilian and I carried on teaching back in London and then a few years later I came to Brazil again to teach.
I found myself after a while staying in Brazil and working with, in the corporate world, teaching business English. And I found myself of course listening because my students were the ones who needed to do the speaking and I needed to listen. So I became quite a good listener. And I also became for many of them, I believe, a confidant because I was outside of their normal corporate world. I was someone who would come in and listen. And a couple of things happened.
The first thing is that they passed on their passion of business to me because they were all passionate about that. And the second thing is that I formed this desire to be able to help them. I realized I had this special relationship with them, but I didn't know quite how. And then when coaching appears, I guess you're already seeing what happened quite naturally is that I thought, well, I could just be. coaching them in English.
So it was quite a small step really from where I was to how I became a business coach, which is what I am today. Wow, that's amazing. So it's a little series of slight tweaks. Yes, yes. And I think like many people, I was kind of almost coaching before I was coaching or I was being led in that direction even before I knew the profession existed.
And interestingly enough, my first thinkers were those very same students who had the trust in me to say, yes, OK, you can you can carry on with us and coaches in English. That's amazing. So you were like me doing it before it was kind of a common thing. Yeah, yeah. But I don't think I realized that I was doing something but not doing it very well. and I really wanted the skill set. And that's what I found in coaching. So you've been coaching for a long time. Well, not so much.
I mean, officially seven years, I've been coaching for seven years. Yeah. So I'm on my pathway, my credentialing process, done my ACC, done my PCC. And I read your book as part of my preparation for my MCC, which is where I am now. So what difference did it make? A huge, huge difference. I mean, it's by far the best book I've read on coaching in terms of helping me in a very practical way. And it was quite an annoying book. Yes, I was, I was doing it all wrong.
I was multitasking and reading it on my treadmill. And of course I didn't get any exercise done because every paragraph I would have to jump off my treadmill and write down some gem that I wanted to use in the very next coaching session. So it was really annoying, but I had lots and lots of pieces of paper. I still have pieces of paper with gems and tips and things that I should be following in the coaching session. And it has really, I would say transformed the way I coached.
Wow. Well, thank you for the feedback. And you and I did that amazing interview, didn't we, for ICF Brazil a few weeks ago? Yes. And lots of people reading your book. We formed three study groups. wow. Yes. And I'm still raving, you know, and I'm still putting it into my practice. And I think the main way it changed, it gave me a role in the coaching conversation and my role, my value now in my mind is I create the container and I keep the focus.
And of course all the MCC competencies which I'm bearing in mind such as the learning and who the person is, the learning beyond that situation. But just... Having that structure and realizing the value of that gave me enough value that I can control needing to give more, which is what was getting in the way. That's such an interesting insight, learning, giving more was getting in the way. Because I think mastery is so much about trusting the process more than we trust ourselves.
Yeah, and I trust it now. And if I still, and I'm not saying I've been totally transformed because it's really a process. And every now and again, I won't be able to resist the urge of solving and advising. I won't be able to resist the invitation that comes very often from the thinker. But I do know that it won't work as well as if I just trusted the process. And I see it again and again and again. You know? So these people you're working with, what are they saying?
It's interesting because sometimes they'll almost think it comes from me, but it's not. But I know it's not. So they'll that was great. That was really good. And they'll look at me with admiration and I'll think, well, you know, I hardly said anything and it all came from you. And sometimes I'll say that as well. But you know, it's not like they realize it all comes from them, but it is all coming from them. They realize it works.
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest ethical dilemmas when you work in this way is that the less you say, the more the person that you're coaching thinks it's yours. Yeah. And they go, that was really useful. That was really good advice. More often because I remember I had a mentor coach years ago, an MCC mentor coach. And I remember saying, that was great. Thanks. And she said, well, you did that. And so maybe I need to be highlighting that. more to them.
I think though when I highlight it they still think it was mine. You want to go? No, I can remember. I can remember years ago, I was working in partnership with somebody and she rang me up and she just had a 45 minute coaching session. And she said, I don't know what to do really, because I only asked one question. And then the lady spoke for 45 minutes and said, that was the best conversation that we've ever had.
45 minutes and I thought, you know, when I have a thinker who goes for 20 or 25, I think that's the record, but obviously. 45 is the record to beat. 45, wow. But what listening skills as well. Yeah. And it isn't easy because it's simple. It isn't easy because there is a depth of presence, which is very, very deep. know, it's like if you just move your eyes, people notice.
Yeah. So it's quite tiring, actually, because of concentration, not because you're solving, but because of the concentration involved. Last week's Coaching In is about coaching and the Argentinian tango. and how you have to have the heart to heart and the contact, you have to have that contact all the time in the way that you're partnering together and improvise. And that's what you're describing, isn't it? That absolute total focus.
Yes, and I'm still not quite there with that in terms of I feel the thinker should be leading and not me, but then I realised it's the dance and the fact that it should be changing because sometimes, for example, if you're going to challenge someone, you will be leading a little bit. Or if you observe something they haven't observed and show it to them, there's a choice there. So I'm very aware, having read your book, that questions can be leading.
And I was leading an awful lot with questions and not realizing it. So now I'm trying to pick up just some people's words and not bring anything outside of what they brought. But even so, I'm not sure if the dance, when I'm leading in a dance, that's wrong, because I think of this leading, you know? I think it's... Yeah, listen to last week's podcast. OK. Because it's about leading and following and switching between. Yeah. Because actually that means that we're in sync.
Because if you follow all the time, then you're not in sync. Yes, exactly. I almost feel like I've denied myself too much. It's like, you know, when you try and change your behavior and you go too far one way. So I feel that I've done that. And I feel that when I'm more in partnership, thinkers prefer it as well. Yeah. You know, so I think it's allowing myself to go back again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like being on a really, really healthy eating plan, isn't it?
And saying, I can't eat anything and then saying, actually, I can eat some great healthy things. Exactly, exactly. And it's going with that instinct or that intuition of time. No, it's okay to come in here with something. It's useful. It's not, you know. So it's really finding that balance. And well, it's such an interesting journey. So interesting. It's such an art coaching. I agree completely and it's an art that we need to master, fall over. Yeah, there's learning all the time, isn't there?
Yes, it's constant. It's constant. And I think it's helpful to listen to recordings. It's helpful to write after a session, be it a good session or not so good session, to write down why, to reflect. These kinds of practices are very helpful. And something else interesting about the journey is people keep asking me, well, when are you going to do it? And for me, It's not about when I'm going to do it.
It's about the journey because I know that when I get the MCC and I'm quite confident that one day I will get it, it won't be the end of the journey. It'll just be choosing another way to develop. And the main thing for me is the development. So as long as I feel I'm learning, that's fine. And I think that when coaches, sometimes I see them doing this, I'm going to get it by. That's almost like sabotage, isn't it?
Because that puts a lot of pressure on you to perform and get your recording and that pressure in itself won't be helpful. Val Hastings, who was on the podcast on the 3rd of November, he had eight years mentoring for his MCC, his Master Certified Coach Credential. Brilliant. I love that. I mean, it took me two years for the PCC and I said it very loudly, very often.
because I actually wanted to help coaches who are finding it difficult, realise, well, it's not easy and it shouldn't be easy, you know, because it's there to help us develop, right? And it wouldn't have any value if it were easy and it wouldn't be a great challenge. And I do like a challenge. Wow. Wow. And yeah, I mean, I agree with you because it's not about the destination.
Because if we think we've arrived, then we start taking power over people and then we're not working in partnership again. Yeah. Yeah. Although I must admit reading your book in a way I have to be careful because I'm working with other coaches and I'll be looking at them and they're not doing the things that I've learned to do. And I'm sort of thinking, well, that's wrong. And I know also that if someone were to watch me, he's got more experience. could also think that of me, you know?
So, I'm trying to be humble. But I've changed so much, you see. Don't make me a guru. I'm not. But no, it's just that I'm just so happy that you wrote the book because it's a side practical. It's something that I hadn't read anything like that. You know, I just, yeah. I just wanted to throw a firework in.
I think partly because I'd learned so much about how much, how less enables the other person to do more, that I wanted to share that and it felt very countercultural in relation to an awful lot of stuff that says, and you also need to know this and you also need to know this and you also need to know this. So I've just had session two of an organisational coaching training. And I said to them today, so they did their first practice.
And I said, that's the hardest practice that you're going to do. Because every week now, we're going to teach you one thing that will make it easier, where you have to do less work. And they're all going, what? They're you know, you can't be serious, but actually that's true. Yeah. It doesn't mean the training is easy because actually the training is really difficult because they're going to have to learn to stop doing things in order to do less. And that's the hard bit. Well, exactly.
I think a lot of coaching is about learning not to, it's about unlearning. Yeah. And that's not easy. You know, it's not judging, it's not assuming, it's not leading, it's not solving, it's not interrupting, it's not, not, not, not, And that's harder than learning something new because you've got your old behavior. If you go on automatic pilot, that's there and very, very ingrained. So the unlearning is really the hardest part and essential. And I think it makes you a better person.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. So I noticed on LinkedIn, Fran, that you're doing a webinar about for coaches who are using English as a second language. And I'm really curious about the connection between simplicity and people who are coaching in a language that's not their mother tongue. That's very interesting because it's actually helpful.
for coaches to be reminded that they don't need to be extremely eloquent or perfect in any way in their second language in order to help their thinker. In fact, if you think about vulnerability and the creation of trust and power in the coaching relationship, there is actually an advantage to be working in your second language, I feel. Obviously you need a level of competency that you can understand your thinker, but you don't need to understand everything.
And I feel that if you're open about the fact that you don't speak that language perfectly and that's all right, you allow them to not be perfect and that's all right. And you create a very good connection, you know, possibly with that. So yeah, it's very interesting. I'll be giving a webinar on Thursday. Well, that's two days from now for South Florida ICS to coaches probably from Latin America who live there about this topic.
And we'll be looking at how coaching in a second language affects the core competencies, which is something I've never seen discussed, but it must be happening all the time. Yeah. I thought that when I saw the advert. I thought, my goodness, nobody's ever said that before. No, and I can tell you, because I coach in Portuguese as well as English, it's fascinating.
And I was with a thinker the other day and we were having the coaching in Portuguese, but he suddenly started speaking in English in the middle because he'd been working with people in English and it was there obviously. And I saw myself, or I looked outside myself, I thought, I don't want to do this, I want to say in Portuguese. And I realised, and I thought, hang on a minute, friend, go with him, go with his language. And then I started mixing it up, Portuguese and English.
And it was really interesting to see what was happening with that and with the dance. And he even mispronounced a word at one point in English. And I thought, well, do I repeat the word mispronounce? Or do I come in and correct him and then I'll be coming a teacher. So you get into all kinds of conversations in your mind, which I mean, it would be great for supervision this, you know, which maybe we're not talking about this, but we should be. Yeah. No, I agree. That's just so interesting.
So interesting, but you're right. There must be huge numbers of people coaching in a language, not their mother tongue. And being coached. Yeah. Yeah. You know, There's some research that's been done about in counseling or therapy that says if somebody's experienced trauma in their early life, it's useful for them to have therapy in the language they spoke when they experienced the trauma. Because to re-engage in that early childhood experience, it's more impactful.
if you do it in the language that was the language that they would have been speaking at that time. Yeah. And I wonder what's happening when people switch between languages. I wonder because people often have roles identified with languages. and I, yeah, it's interesting to think about what their identity and how their identity changes with the language. And if they're working in business with English, if they're not bringing that mindset there to the coaching session.
So it might be worth discussing it with the thinker, you know, if it comes up. And another thing I noticed is when I learn from my thinkers, because sometimes they'll use metaphors that I don't understand in Portuguese. And the metaphor is so rich, you know, for our work. I'll ask them. and they'll explain, they'll teach me. So again, you've got that power thing going on and then I'll be using that. So it seems, I also have to think, when do I ask, when don't I ask? When is it about me?
When is it about them? Yeah. But yeah, it's like a perk of doing it in another language. You do prove your language knowledge, but that's a perk of coaching in general, isn't it? You don't go in there for your benefit, but you come out. Wiser. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, because you just get some wisdom absorbed through your skin on the way. Yeah, but what stops a lot of coaches coaching in another language is they want to be perfect, you know, so they're making it about them.
They're not making it about the coachee or the thinker. And I'm actually in this webinar, I've got this right in front of me, and so I'm going to say it. It's a quote from you that I've got on the slide. And it is your value does not come from how many words you use or from the eloquence of your questions. The value you bring is to be fully present and enable another person to do what is needed to see things differently. Too many words reduce the challenge. Less is more.
I'm just sitting here thinking, did I really write that? Yes you did and I think it will give people confidence to remember it because it's so much more than words, it's feeling and emotion and intuition and energy, you know, and people, it's such a shame because I see coaches who could be working in English and they're not because they think they need to be perfect.
I did an introduction to coaching, just a one day course, which we've we run all over the place, just to kind of introduction in organisations. And it's an organisation that has a they they have a recruitment programme from the Philippines, whether I think Philippines where they bring nurses from the Philippines to the UK to work in their hospitals. And they're quite senior nurses. And they come over and one of the issues is that they have an anxiety about the level of their English.
And these two women came on this training day where people had lots of different countries of origin in the room, like they do in London hospitals. And at the end of the day, these two ladies came over to me and said, this is amazing because you've given us permission to not feel that we need to understand every single thing that people say to us.
And so they were beginning to regain the confidence of their experience because the confidence of their experience had been suppressed by the fact they were so bothered that they didn't understand every single word that people said that they thought therefore they weren't good enough. But they didn't need to understand every single word. They needed to understand enough. Yeah. And in fact, sometimes the words will lead to a mislead you.
I was with a thinker the other day who was very, very stressed and you didn't need to understand a word that this person said to know because the speech becomes very accelerated. You you feel it. And at some point he said, but life is good and everything's fine and my family's great. But the energy hadn't changed at all. The dialogue had changed, but the energy was exactly the same.
So, and then later on in the conversation, the energy dropped and I said, I feel the energy's dropped, what's happened? And it had nothing to do with the words. know, there was something that was going on there, obviously, that he'd realized or thought, but if you were just really basing your analysis on the words, you wouldn't have got to the reality of it, the truth of it, let's say. So words can be misleading. Yeah. And you were paying attention to the musicality.
The tone and the pitch and the pace. Yes. And the sensing. Yes. Yes. Because you get it into kind of empathy with the person and you feel stressed by them. I mean, you're there calm and serene and suddenly, what's this? What do I do with this? Which brings us back to the dance. I mean, should you kind of accelerate a bit to get in there and then calm down or do you just confront them with your calmness and not go there? That's interesting, isn't it?
Because there's that saying match for rapport, mismatch for change. And I guess that's a judgment call in the moment about whether the most appropriate thing is to match or to mismatch. Because, so for example, if you... If you meet somebody in the street and they've lost their mobile phone and they go, well, I can imagine in Brazil, I suspect that the musicality of I've lost my mobile phone will be different in different cultures around the world, won't it?
But it will be quite an agitated, loud, I've lost my phone kind of thing. And often if that's what happens, the person who's trying to support them will say, let's just sit down. Where did you last see it? Yeah. So that's a really good example of mismatching. Yeah. But then there are other cases where it might be the other way round, where somebody might be quite flat in their tone, where to mismatch straight away could seem really disrespectful.
So you say to me, I've had a really bad day and a really difficult week and I've just lost my biggest customer. It's really hard. And I go, so what would you like to do today? You go, well, come. Cheer up, it's all going to be fine, your coach is here. I am your magical inspirer. So, so my gut feeling as you say that is that I think you have to take a judgment call in the moment, don't you? Yeah, yeah, which is part of the art.
You just never know what's going to come to you and you never know there is not a recipe really. I mean, there's a recipe with the container, with the structure, but that's the only part there's a recipe for, you know, and that's what I'm holding on to for dear life. And the rest, you just got to have faith in the process, but it works, you know, and if it doesn't, that's okay too, you you're learning. And we can work out what to do together, can't we? Yes, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's one to really think about. And the cultural. kind of undertones and overtones of that are also really interesting to think through. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I'm really interested in at the moment. And that's what I want to be talking about with people more because I feel this conversation, we're not having it. And it's important at least to investigate it.
So I have never heard anyone else talk about it ever apart from when I read your little advert for your piece of work in Florida. Never heard a word. Yeah, well, I'm going to start a SIG for the ICF. Yeah, we're going to launch it after the webinar. And I'm going to start co-creating with people, some kind of course, some kind of training, some kind of a safe space for coaches to practice.
coaching in their second language and receive feedback and discuss these kinds of topics, it affects competencies and vulnerability and power and all the rest of it. And so let's go. I'm beginning. I'm very excited. Let's see what happens. That sounds amazing. So if any of our listeners are interested, how do they get in touch with you? Well, you can get in touch with me by LinkedIn, Fran Smith Coaching and just write me a message and I'll reply.
And there are thousands of messages and might reply slowly, but I will reply. And most welcome to join us. Yes. And to create something new in the world of coaching. Wow. There's an invitation to our listeners. Thank you so much. So if there was one nugget that you would want to leave with listeners as a result of this conversation we're having today, what would your nugget be? Well, Coaching is much more than understanding every word the person says.
You know, there's an awful lot going on in a coaching conversation. So what I want to say is to people who are coaching in a second language, please bear that in mind, right? And I think that's it, but I have a question for you, Claire, because- Fire away. Well, I don't know, should I be asking you about this? I believe there's another book in the making. There is another book. Right, And anything you want to reveal or is it top secret? No spoilers. It's about the path to mastery. Right.
And it's about the, at the moment, the running total is 10. It's about the, it's about what's underneath the ICF coaching competencies or any coaching competencies that actually demonstrate mastery. So one of the issues about us getting very fixated on the coaching competencies is that actually people can demonstrate them and it's still not mastery. So mastery is what happens underneath them. So it's about what's underneath and actually it's about, I'm just looking at my little list.
It's about things like, I'm not gonna give you all my spoilers. It's things like vulnerability. It's things like musicality. the tone and the timing of conversations. It's something about not knowing. And there'll be a chapter on each. And it's not a spoiler to say that the chapter on partnership is all about the Argentinian tango. And I went into a sort of, I'm writing the book in consultation with a coach in Italy and We've been toying with the idea of coaching as a dance.
And last week, it was my job to research the Argentinian tango, because the Argentinian tango is improvised, which is the closest dance to coaching because it's not choreographed. So I spent hours writing like one paragraph. And then as everybody will know who's listening, Last week's interview was meant to be about power and partnership. And then she lets out she's an Argentinian tango teacher. No. Well, that's the universe conspiring, you know.
So now I go back to all that jolly work I did last week, and I'm going to delete that paragraph. And she's given me permission to transcribe what she said, which was a million times better than what I'd written. How wonderful. So she will be quoted. So that's kind of the way it's going at the moment, the new book. But you know me, I reserve the right to learn, so it might change direction. Yes, yes. And thanks for telling me. I'll tell you what, any idea when it's coming out?
At the moment, we're still faffing with the first chapter. OK. So don't hold your breath, No, don't hold your breath, Fran. Although, if you read our blog, it'll probably give you a bit of sense of what's coming up because actually that's where I work my things out. But then go into the book. So simplifying coaching was actually a whole load of blog posts put together in an order that made sense.
So I suspect that if you were to do Google search, Probably you'd find whole phrases on our blog from any book I've written. okay. I'm going to Google Simplifying Coaching blog and take a look at that. blog's called 3D ideas. So you can get it from www.3dcoaching.com slash blog. Okay. And there's a hyperlink at the bottom where you can sign up and get it every week. Excellent. Thank you. I'll do that.
And if you're a reader of our blog, I promise that I won't write every single one about dancing, although the last six I think have been about dancing. Which makes it really clear that's my learning edge. Right, okay. Well, you know, you could go into jazz a bit because there's a lot of improvisation for jazz.
Don't even go there, Fran, because I have, there was somebody at the ICF, the International Coach Federation Conference, who knows all about jazz and coaching and is going to come as a guest. perfect. There you go. I'll be listening to that one. Well, I listened to them all, of course, because I'm... the world's biggest fan, as probably people have noticed. Anyway, I'll be listening, paying special attention to that one.
And I could talk about the competencies in terms of the fact that they do get in the way, because there are so many of them and they're all about us displaying things. But the whole point of coaching is it shouldn't be about us. So I'm tackling that as well. I'm really in a process here and I have some complaints. But okay.
That's one of the things that I'm going to talk about in the next book, because the issue, as you've so beautifully said there, is that actually, just because you measure somebody on their capacity to meet the competencies and ask great questions and do what needs to be done, unless you also notice how it's received. and notice the partnership from the other end, then it's not mastery.
So Lucia Baldelli, who I'm writing the next book with, she and I have been having an ongoing conversation that actually says, can you assess mastery audio only? Because actually watching the video gives you a much better sense of how people are switching the lead and follow between them.
I often think that because I record in audio and I think sometimes I almost I'm giving what could I say like subtitles to it I'm saying I noticed you opened up your hands like that and I would be never saying that but I think what they can't see so I've got to say otherwise it won't make any sense you know but then you're performing for the recording so I wouldn't prefer video but I don't know how the thinker would feel about the video yeah it's it's a complexity isn't it but
It's definitely a work in progress. Working out what, you know, what is mastery and how do we know, how do we know it when we see it is one question, but how do we begin to aspire to that? So, so the other spoiler on the book is that Lucia is a coach that I have mentored. I am mentoring towards her MCC. So she's talking about what needed to change. and what she did to change it. So it's really exciting. Okay, but don't hold your reference because it's maybe we're on chapter one, but all right.
Correct, but the good news is, well, it's not chapter one, it'll probably be like chapter six, but. Okay. My experience of writing is that it takes months to write the first chapter and to find your voice and to get a structure that's going to work. But once you've written the first chapter, whichever number chapter it is, the others come out really easily. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. The hardest, the hardest step is the first.
So we're not going to take four months to write each chapter. Just so don't worry about that bit. Okay. And now you told me to go to the blog. I'll be going. Yes. So what a pleasure to talk to you and Thank you for being a super fan. That's all right, anytime. And it's been really great to talk to you today. So I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with Fran Smith. All right. Thank you for listening, everybody. Bye bye.
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