EP. 148 - Michael Bamberger

great read. It takes you through not just the two thousand nineteen masters, of course that would be in professional golf, his second life, but takes you through simply Tiger is a human being and what's been different over the last two or three years versus how he was when he came out as a professional, and all of the things that have changed, all of the things that have played into his life that have led to those changes. An

unbelievable read. I urge you to pick it up, order online, or just get it on your Kindle or whatever device you read on. I loved it, couldn't put it down, knocked it out in a couple of days. I think you will enjoy it as well, if you're a fan of golf, which you probably are if you listening to this podcast, and if you're a fan of Tiger Woods, which maybe you are. If you're listening to this podcast, you're gonna enjoy the book, So pick it up. Bamburger

was great. Always love chatting with them first time on the podcast, and uh and yeah, we went a lot longer than maybe I thought we would because we had a lot to talk about. Hopefully you guys are staying sane and keeping yourself safe and being smart during this unreal time in our history. I know it's it's been.

There have been days that have been testing, there have been days that have seemed to kind of roll by, and all the while, we are, at least in my household, trying to follow all the gold guidelines that have been put out. And I hope you're doing the same thing. Because we can get through this as a group, as a society, as a country, as a world. I know we can do it. I'm trying to stay positive. Hopefully you are as well. One last thing for we get to Michael, if you haven't checked out, get a grip.

That's my new. I guess new is news still fair? To say my quota. I just did quote new I did air quotes my new golf podcast with PJ Tour winner Max Homa. Max and I have had now ten episodes of Get a Grip. We try to do one once a week. Of course, the early ones were a little bit more current golf specific. The last few have been a little bit more all over the place. But

we're trying to have some fun with it. We have started to do read your Questions, and we have started to do some lists like favorite nicknames in sports history and and all of that. So we're trying to have a little bit of fun and pass the time and give people something to listen to. Of course, as Quarantine continues on, that's enough for me. Let's get to Michael and we welcome to the clubhouse for the first time. Michael Bamberger, author of now Out The Second Life of

Tiger Woods. Of course, Michael the scene writery Golf Magazine and golf dot Com, and Michael, I want to start with this. They talk a lot about the smaller the ball, the better the story. I've always felt the more famous the person, the tougher the profile, because we know so much about him. Why would you want to take on a Tiger Woods profile a Tiger Woods book. That is

a great question. Uh. Gary Dematto uh, writing up the book UH for one of the Wisconsin Golf or his own Wisconsin Golf publication, said there have been millions of words written about this guy? Do we really need eighty five thousand more? And it was and it was funny that he said that, because I've written a million words about this guy, and I wondered myself if we need eighty five thousand more? And I guess the answer is there's a lot of differints to answer, but one concise

answer would be there was a very definitive biography. You probably read a Shane uh that came out two years ago, just called Tiger by Jeff Benedict and armed contained. It's a really find book. Uh. And as a matter of fact, I would say it's a starting point if you haven't read any books about Tiger. Would say that book and and the and the Haney book, to me would be the first two books that I would read. But it's big.

But a lot has happened since that book came out, and so this book really covers a two year period in Tiger Woods. This life that is extraordinary on an athletic level and on a human level. Well, that leads to one of my next questions. You know you you mentioned Haney the big miss. Of course, the Tiger book that you reference first is a deep, deep dive into everything you'd ever want to know and probably some stuff

maybe you don't about Tiger. When you decided to take on this project, and I know you're a reader, I know you obviously pay attention to that world. How many Tiger books did you make sure that you had read and finished before starting your project? Well? Zero, because uh, you know, I read the Benedict book, and I read the Haney book, and I've read some of the other books, so you know, I'm well at air of what of

what they have. But once I started writing my own book, and even started thinking about writing my own book, I didn't pay occasion. I would definitely go back to the Benedict Cataian book because they had so much information and just be at the index. In terms of sitting down and absorbing somebody else's take on Tiger, I didn't go there at all because I didn't I didn't want it

in my head. So Tiger Woods, this is a guy that has been in your life for the better part of twenty years, if not longer, maybe twenty five years, if you will, if maybe even into the early junior ams. You know, when he was doing stuff we hadn't seen before. The title of your book is the Second Life of Tiger Woods. I feel like that could be taken in so many different ways. I've I've watched Tiger's life changed

dramatically day to day, night tonight, headline to headline. This is a guy that everything that has happened personally professionally we have absorbed over the last twenty years of his professional rear. You're calling this the second life. I feel like the main focus of that title is simply about him professionally. But as I as I dove deeper and deeper into your book, I felt that the Second Life of Tiger, at least the way you presented it, was

his personality. I mean, this is a guy that came into our lives a stone faced killer on the golf course, and now he's a guy that will answer questions, that does certain things I loved. At the very end of your book, you said you mentioned a note Greg Norman at handed Tiger and Tiger never said anything about it, about the win, and one of the last few pages of the book, you said, you know, Tiger saw Greg

and thanked him for the note. It were those, there were those little tidbits that made you feel like the second life of Tiger wasn't anything about his golf. It was all about how he's presented now and how he approaches life. Well, that's a very good insight, I would I agree with all of that. Uh, you know what you know from having read the book. My take on the idea of the second life of Tiger Woods actually having a starting date in my mind, uh, in my writing.

In other words, you know, I don't know this was sound self absorbed, but this is what authors often do. My take is that his second life began the day he was arrested on that horrible Memorial Day night in a in two thousand and seventeen, and he had to he was really at a cross roads. Uh. I have a personal take on the sex scandal, which you know, in one sense was you know, a tragedy for Ellen and uh and and his in his family life, but

none of our business. A lot of people think that, oh, when he came back from that went to rehab after that, came back from that that that was maybe you know, a new chapter in the in the in the Life and Times of Tiger Woods. I don't really think it was. I think that I think the real moment of reckoning came on that Memorial Day in two thousand and seventeen. Uh. And I think he had to dig deep and find

out who he really was. So all the things Shane that you just talked about, expressing more gratitude in in interviews, being more patient with fans, being more engaged with officials and tournament sponsors and and other players. Um, I think that all is a function of him digging deeper into who he really is, and uh and shedding some of that you know, stone cold killer that you just described, and uh and finding a humanity that some of us really would never have might not have ever known really

existed when you rewatch the two thousand nineteen Masters. And we'll talk a lot about that, because that was the victory that that weaved itself through your book. Was his his fifteenth major, finally getting that Masters in two thousand nineteen, you know, the last obviously major, coming Tory Pines, when HD was barely a thing. I mean when you were we were watched it a couple of weekends ago. You know, it's a lot different in O eight it is in nineteen.

But I always, you know, when I close my eyes and think of Tiger Woods, and I think of Tiger Woods the golfer. You know, I go to moments, the huge fist pump at Sawgrass when he was playing in the Ameter, and I think of you know, the celebrations throwing his hat at bay Hill, you know, the two fists up in the air to get into the playoff with Rocko. The one thing that I continually noticed that Sunday at Augusta was how that none of those things happened. It was it was almost like he had a full

cell phone battery of of ability that day. This is what I have in me. I can't waste any of it because I've got to get my cell phone to the end of the day with battery power. And then it all came out when he finally won on the eighteenth Green. But everything about that Sunday was just a little bit different. I mean, three stomes going off early. You know, it's Tiger, He's there, but he's chasing and he's chasing a guy that face Tiger in a major

championship the year before and wasn't aired. It is so interesting to see this quote unquote new Tiger and how he approaches these huge moments versus what we've seen for the better part of his career. All right, Shane, now now you're making me mad. I mean, it's bad enough that you're such a good golfer, you're such a handsome guy, but now you're coming up with analogies that a way better than I. I'm a guy that always has a dead cell phone battery, so it makes total sense to me.

That's that's perfect. I would completely agree with that he was playing I mean, just to get it down into the mechanics of Sunday at Augusta. Everything you said, I completely agree with. Uh, But he was playing chess. Now you're not playing chess that moment. You know you're on seventeen team. You got to drill on. That's pure athleticism. But everything else is chess, and chess requires tremendous reservoirs of of ptitions and UH and and intellectual output, and

then you gotta go when it's time to go. So I think you're right. He was pacing himself all the while. He knew he was the guy with the four coats and and none of those guys had any and that gave big advantage, and that mistakes would be made by others, and if he could avoid making mistakes, uh, that he could get to the house with a little bit of charged left in that battery. And as we saw, there

was a very little left in that battery. And luckily for him, uh, it didn't go to a playoff, because who knows what those fresher younger players might have done, uh in a playoff. Yeah, you you talked a little bit about that. You mentioned his fear of that Bogey bogey finish at Augusta. We saw it against De Marco.

You know, he chips in and things go crazy. And this goes back a little bit to the energy, right, that was so much energy he used in celebration and firing up the crowd him and Stevie high five and kind of missing the high five. But then he bogey's seventeen and eighteen. It was a little bit like Kenny Perry and all of a sudden he's in a playoff and now he's got to refocus, re click in. And of course he won that Masters as well. But I'm with you, he did not win any extra holes. He

wanted that thing to end, and it ended. I want to go back to the book. Just early on you talk a little. I mentioned Greg Norman already. I'm not sure I ever understood how close Tiger in his life and his career followed what Norman did in his life and his career. Well, how clearly, how closely Tiger followed. Oh are you talking about the mechanics of hiring Steve Williams. There was a lot of that. There were so many similarities with those two guys. And then he and then

he hired Norman's lawn guy. And by the way, to call him a lawn guy an understatement. It's ridiculous art. He's an artist with a lawnmower or estate managers. Maybe I might be the right term. I'm not man sure. Yes, Well, I mean, start with Butch Harmon. Start with the fact that Greg Norman was the best player in the world, drove the ball on a string, had all the shots pretty much, uh, and had Butch Harmon as a seat.

And then uh, it was the number one player in the world, and every which way that Tiger could supplant the guy. And he goes back to what you said earlier, shaneem of being a stone cold killer. He was going to supplant him. Uh so uh teacher, Uh state residents approach to practice. You know, Butch says this all the time,

or he used to. Uh, you know, the hardest working student he ever had was Greg Norman until he until he had developed a relationship with this teenage golfer Tiger Woods, and Tiger Woods had more capacity for work and more ability to absorb information than even Greg Norman. Uh. It's kind of weird because you know, you know, Greg was the only one, you know, the two British opens his majors. He's sort of gotten a short shrift and you know he's got such a big personality stort of gott a

short shrift here. But before there was Tiger, there was Norman. Yeah, I mean, and we always here, you know, I'm I'm thirty six. I didn't have a chance to watch a lot of the Greg Norman prime days, but he was the type of player that dominated with his distance, dominated with his ball striking. Brad Faxton's told me a story that he was playing I think Brad and Norman were playing in a practice round and Brad, you know, famously

not a great driver. The golf ball was spraying it a little bit all over the place, and I guess Norman went up to Butch and goes, is this guy a pro? And Butch goes, yeah, he's beating you by two. You know, Norman was the hit it down the middle of the fairway, hit it three and twenty yards, had that look on his face all the time. But the differences, of course being that Norman, when it seemed like the brakes were gonna go his way, they didn't, And with Tiger,

the brakes always always went his way. And it even happened in nineteen. I mean, he's got two guys, he's got a guy in front of him. In two thousand nineteen, they're all chasing the same goal and all these guys rinted and Tigers the guy that plays it to the middle of the green smartly on twelve. And that was really the story of that championship. Yes, although sometimes people forget about what a mess mullinar he played the fifteen

bad first I did. I did as well. When I was reading the book that is altered just a quick funny note. Since you work in TV, you'll especially appreciate the same. When um, when Harrington won that second Open that was at Birkdale, correct and uh. And he was, I believe playing with Norman in the fourth round, and Norman was newly married to Christie Evert and he I think he would have been I'm sure he would have been the oldest winner of a major. Could he have

pulled it off? And his putting stroke is spectacular And fathers doing the commentary, I don't know for whom, but I know I heard him say this, uh and uh, and he looks at Norman's putting stroke and he says, it's not fair. It's there's absolutely no yipp in it whatsoever. A little a little bit of what we are we are seeing and continue to see with Tiger. One thing and again one of my favorite things about there's two things I love about your writing style. And I mean,

I'm just gonna say it. I continually believe you're one of the best, if not the best, that covers this beat in the entire world at what you do. So reading a book that you and obviously a lot of time on was a treat for me. But two things you do that are amazing. One is you're just a perfect word smith. Let me just give people an example. You were talking about Tiger and last year at the Masters and on Sunday, correct me if I'm wrong here, but on Sunday before the Masters. So that's the drive,

chip and put day. The only people allowed on the big course, if you will, are members and past champions. Is that right? Yes, that's so. Tiger was playing an afternoon nine whole practice around and you wrote this and I just loved it. I screened. I had to take a picture of the page. You said. The PGA Tour produces a mountain of stats under headlines like strokes gained

putting and strokes gained ball striking. What nobody can measure is strokes gained thinking, strokes gained preparing, strokes gained imagining, and you you just felt like what you were seeing with Tiger, he just had a couple of edges and a putter, and he was out there going over a golf course that we all know he understands and has seen more than anybody in the field, maybe outside of

Phil Mickelson. Yet he's out there this Sunday before the Masters, just just using everything he can, using all the time allowed to prepare for what he knew was a chance at another major championship. Well shame. First off, I want to thank you for those that extraordinarily generous uh comment about my writing. I really really appreciate it. And then uh, and you you know this, but other others wouldn't. Any writer nonfiction gets a lot of help and I've got a lot of and uh and and too, so two

things that come to mind when you're talking about that. Uh. No, of course I wasn't out there walking with Tiger woods and play the nine holes. But you know, between talking a little bit, hearing Tiger talk about it, a little bit, hearing Joe Kaba talk about it, Chaldo who was out there, Terry Holt, Bernard Langer's caddy, who's out there? So they all these sources together helped me get a deeper sense

of what it was. But Faldo was the most selpful because because he saw it through a champion's eyes, that he understood what I might not have understood. How to not talked to Faldo, uh that he was getting in the mood, in the mood to play that that golf course. Uh, so you do get so so I do want to acknowledge all the help that a nonfiction marter gets, whereas the picture writers, you know, often just sitting in the room, although he or she gets a lot of help too.

And then another thing, he said, I have no idea if the story is apocryphal or not, but even if it is, it conveys so much. There's a famous story about Jack Nicholiffs going to the driving range of the practice tea and uh and there's a ball sitting there and he stands over the ball with no club and he just looks at the ball, and then he walks back to the cliphouse. He says, yeah, I'm done for the day. And the point is, you know so much. I've never heard that one before. I have not, And

you know, it doesn't sound true. It doesn't sound big Jack, but but it does make it sounds a little bit more like Hogan. But it does make the point that that's at that level, when you've got the physical parts basically worked out, then it's how prepared are you mentally for what you want to do to the golf course? How much do you have a blueprint of what it's going to look like? And Tiger is the king of this and U And one one example that that comes to mind is was, now, let's see, he's won two

opens at the old course. So this I'm I'm not remembering the year immediately. No, okay, not two thousand. That was his first of the second time. Okay, thank you, so oh five when he won the second one, and uh And it was a clinic and he came into the and he came into the depressed send. Everyone's leaning in and he starts the sentence with I'll tell you what, and people are leaking, you know, all the writers are leaning in. It's like, oh, Tiger is going to give

us a revelation. And this is this is close to what he said before I went out there today. That was the best warm obsession I've had in years, or you know, the best warm obsession I had in my life. And everyone's like, oh man, could you possibly give us something we can use? Uh. I remember just sinkly thinking

it was boring, but it was truthful. In other words, he had played the golf course in his mind and played the shots that he thought he was going to need in the on the practice tea, and then it was just a simple question of of executing. It's not so simple, but it is a question of executing it. Uh, that's how his mind works. And uh, it's not colorful and it's not romantic like seve A or Trevino or you know, remember else you might put in that group, but it is Tiger. And the proof of the pudding

is what two tour wins, including fifteen major championships. So it's pretty hard to beat that. Yeah, the focus of this book in terms of golf is of course the Masters last year. But I I guess i'd maybe either I don't remember how important it was or I have glossed over it considering what else had happened in two

thousand and eighteen. But something I felt like he brought up well was the two thousand eighteen Honda and just the way Tiger played that week, it seemed like that was what the world, the Tiger fans, the golf fans that follow this guy, that was really what we were waiting for. Yes, and the that was the special week that that hont Tournament. I've always enjoyed that hond Tournament and going all the way back to Eagle Trace days.

But there's something about it. But so well, yeah, I mean, shame you have your such a noledgeal golfers and uh but you know, for for more casual gopers, they're they're owed by the driving game always, and and and some of the other aspects. But at at tigers level, the thing that really gets people's attention is ability to hit irons on the face the distance you want to hit them, because they're going to hit them left and right, they're gonna they're they're not gonna be too far off there there.

That part is kind of mechanical. But but to hit it to the link you want to hit it, you know, as as as Johnny Miller used to say, you know, in my prime, I could distinguish from one seventy six and one seventy seven. Uh, well, that's gonna leave you with a make up a put. So that that was the first thing I saw at that Honda tournament, aside

from some other cultural things that were extremely interesting. But just to pass forward there per minute, so all the you know, you know whatever two roughly eighty shots that he played are fewer than that. Uh. At Augusta last year. One of the ones that stands up most of my mind is the second shot five iron on Sunday from the right side of the Ferrway on fifteen two hundred

forty yards raw shot piercing. You know when I say draw show, I mean like three yards of draw sat of the green is gonna take that slope and go down there. And the absolute worst score this guy is gonna make is four. Well, four is huge. Four is way better than seven. You know, four windsy the tournament. So you know how Tiger talks about the the t shot and seventeen blah blah blah. But I mean the purity of that's now, that's that's a bread and butter

shot form. It's not really even a hard shot form. But there aren't that many people play. And then another quick one that comes to and I'm just blanking here, but this was the first or second round. I think it was the well, I just can't remember right now, but the first or second round he drove it in the green side excuse me, the fairway bunker on the

left side of eighteen. And you know there's a lip there, it's nasty, it's straight up a hill and he's in there, I think with the seven iron, and and there are so few I mean you're a really good golfer and you're a really foot person, and you know, I don't know your your game, won't have to know, but but the number of people who could actually advance a golf ball from that trap to the back right of the green from where you could to put it's a very

short list. So the skill set of hitting an iron lush, the distance you want to hit it and need to hit it um is off the charts. Yeah, you know that story brings up to your point of again, you said it to start, it was like he was playing chess on Sunday against everybody else, and maybe he's been playing chess against everybody his entire life, and we're just starting to realize how good he is a chess. But

I think it was Hogan. It's a story of Hogan playing fifteen at Augusta with an amateur and he laid up. He was a whole bunch under par He laid up and he knocked on the green and made birdie and the amateur asked him why didn't go for it? And I think Hogan stone faced of course as he was said I didn't need eagle, you know, And I just felt like that's the same point here. Tiger would have loved to make three there, but he didn't need three. You know, he's I, I just want to make four.

I'm gonna hit the exact shot I need to hit. And the distance control thing with him his entire career. You know how people say it's your it's your favorite pros favorite pro. I feel like Tiger's iron game as everybody's favorite pros favorite aspect of any golfer in the history of the game was his Tiger's continued ability to be able to hit iron shots exactly where he wants them. Well, that's well said. I totally agree with that. And now, Butch, where he on the phone, I think would would would

add this to the conversation. In at twenty one, in his first major as a professional, he wins the Masters by twelve shots. Now, any normal person of thousands going to say, Okay, I've got this. All I have to do is hold on to what I have and I'm gonna win for a long time to come. And what Butch Harmon said, and with Tiger acknowledged to be true or I'm not sure what the orders might have been the other way around, was that I am really good

at golf. But I've got a distance control problem with you know, I think it was I think it was really the wedge. But let's say eight nine wedge sandwich possibly, And uh, and I've got if I'm going to dominate for a long time, I've got to get better at that. And so who would think that you would want to do make any changes to the swing that just allowed you to win a Master's by twelve shots? Who would make And it just gets the thing that we're talking about.

It was distance control with the shortest clubs. Uh, that was really what he worked on. And then we know what happened in two thousands. Yeah, I loved the part in the book you and this is just the golf dork in me. You love you dove into the Champions dinners at August Over the years, was that information always

made public? Was that something that in the nineties and in the late eighties, was that information that they would tell the media and the public because now you know you you see the pictures posted on social media and they obviously aren't scared to reveal that information. But if it wasn't public, how much digging do you have to do to find out what meals were served. You know, I'm not sure, Shane, I think that menu has always

been released. Uh, But I don't want this to come up off by being I hope this one sounded modest, but I would say the mechanics of how the dinner works, I don't think. I don't think I've read that anywhere before, you know, typing it up for for for this book. And I'm just you know, as as I'm sure the same is true for you. I'm fortunate to have relations, you know, trusting relationships with a lot of people who have who have won that, uh won that tournament and

are at that dinner. So I was able to get a good sense of what that dinner is like. Yeah, it seemed like and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lean on you here. It seems like Vj's dinner is kind of the consensus goat of the champions inners. There that fair. I think it's only for the foodies, uh okay, And I don't think and I don't think there were that many foodies among I don't think Jack Nicholas is

a foodie. I don't think Gary players. I think they're like, give me a piece of Gary players like bring me the cod no sauce, and Jack's like, you know, bring me the prime wrist with the burnets. Uh. But you do have you do have some I think, uh you know very much uh a loft the ball and seven before he died, of course uh uh faio uh are are very much um foodies and they appreciated DJ's effort. I didn't know that J was, but it evidently evidently is.

But yes, I do, Yes, people do talk about that VJ dinner and the tie after he brought in from Atlanta. So as a writer somebody that's laying out a book like this, I know you're doing hours and hours and hours of interviews. But something that I feel like, specifically to you, I love I talked about a couple of things. This is the other thing is how you'll sprinkle in quotes from something completely non golf related throughout the story to help hammer home your point. Let me give an example,

because this is one of my favorites. You were you were talking about winning and the Masters, and and you're talking about prep and how it's not the sexiest thing in the world, and you gave a war in Buffett quote about how he invested in brick and other durables. And you said, quote, try to contain your excitement, and it was just such a perfect quote for the moment. How are you grabbing these quotes? How many quotes do

you have in your brain? Mr? Bamburger? Well they float around, But let's let's make a nod to uh by acquaintance slash friend and I think maybe you're buss uh. Mark Loomis here. Mark Loomis is the producer of you help me if I don't have the title correct. Mark Lomis is the producer of golf for for the Fox broadcast, so he handles all the U. S J events that you see on Fox, and Shane works with him very closely.

If I may speak to your Shane and uh, and I've had the pleasure work machine with well Will Shane as well. But what I meant to say is Mark. Mark's mother is a legend now in in early nineties, her name is Carol Loomis. Now many would not know, but many would know that Carol Loomis, among many other things, is Warren Buffett's ghostwriter. So when you see some and was was a longtime writer for different Time inc. Magazines, Most most notably uh Fortune Business, you know the time

magazine of the business world, Fortune and anyway. Uh So some of these legendary lines like, uh, you know this year we invested in cement, try to continue your excitement. I don't know specifically about that line, but Mark's mother, Carol Loomis fingerprints are all over some of these, uh some of these Buffet ones. So uh so that's where that one comes from. And uh yeah, they do. They float around in my head. They're not written down anywhere.

But I go to a lot of movies, I read a lot of books, and and uh I do retain things that that amused me or you know, one of one. Another one of Buffetts things is if you know, this is something only a really rich person can say. If you see an investment you like, don't take a child's portion. Well that's great. If you've got a few billion dollars to in, that's right. You can dive into a little easier. Yeah,

that's right. When when you don't worry about what your debit card amount is, he probably hasn't checked his debit card statement too much over the years. Yeah, exactly. I was very impressed at one point when I learned the Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett's housekeeper came by monthly twice a month, and you know, well ours came once a week. So I said to my Christine, you know, isn't it funny Warren Buffett's I'm glad our house comes once week because

it makes everything nicer than anyway. We digress. We're gonna take a quick break and be right back. I want to get to Tiger and something you pointed out that I never knew and I had no idea about, and now it makes total sense. We knew that Tiger in Majors, when he had one hand around the trophy going into the weekend, he basically won. I never knew how solidly he played on Saturday, specifically against whomever he was paired with.

You framed it as moving day Saturday. It was almost like a match played day for Tiger, and his record nearly flawless against the person next to him that day. He will kill the versit he's playing with on Saturday. Well, look if if Tiger, if Tiger is contending, that means the guy that he's playing with on Saturdays contending as well. Tiger doesn't wanna have to worry about that guy comes Sunday, so he will bury that guy. Now, I've asked Tiger

about this and he and he denies it. But you know, Tiger keeps his methods very close to the best, and I don't blame him at all all for that. Uh. I don't know if this is an inside or not, but one of the things that I picked up about Tiger really only in the writing of this book was that Tiger mastered match play. He won three straight U S Juniors, as you know, and that followed by three straight U S m s. It's completely a heard of

that you could do that for six straight years. So he came onto the PGA Tour having figured out match play golfle match play golf is boxing, knock the guy out that you're playing, and and tournament golf of course is very different. But what I think Tiger was able

to do, I mean, they're almost different games. Uh. I think what Tiger was able to do is hold on to that match play mentality, I'm going to bury this guy on Saturday, so I don't have to worry about him on Sunda day, and played the chess required of tournament golfer. You're playing the course and you're playing the whole field at the same time. So yes, it was very useful for him to be those guys on Saturday. And yes, the I mean and it's not just you know,

sometimes absolutely destroyed the guy. And by the way, if you can do it, you know, one time, and you know, if you do it at the two thousand and six p J Championship wherever it was, and then you're gonna face that guy six years later on on a Sunday, Well, he's got him in the back of the mind. Or like this guy has no fun to play with when

all the lights are on you. Yeah, Tony Fenow you you said you talked to Tony Fine a few months after the Masters, and he said he was on the range and he couldn't get out of his head that Tiger Woods was a couple of spots, you know, and he was gonna play with him in the final round of the Masters. This is the thing that he'd always wanted to do. And again, as as you said, Earl

would always tell Tiger, let the legend grow. The legends just sitting there warming up and you're thinking about him, He's not thinking about you, right, And uh and and I think it's great that we're at a place right now where you have people like Tony Finow, uh justin Thomas Rory McRoy, Jordan's Speef h Francesco Mulinary who are actually willing to tell you a little bit about their internal lives because it makes the game more interesting for us.

Of course, Tiger famously was not really willing to do that. And that's okay, you know, it's his his business and

his approach, and uh, that's up to him. But but but but what what a truthful thing for Finelle to h to acknowledge and along the same lines and uh and and this is in the book, uh, which reminds me of quick secutly, my my friend Gary Nansickle form former colleague Sports Illustrated will always say, you want to win a writer store and promoter his book will say, well, as I say in pause the book, you know it's apology.

But anyway, but I do say this in the book the book, Uh, that that wakes up on Sunday morning and he's getting dressed and he knows what he's gonna wear, and it's like you can't put on its. You know, it's probably dark, it's probably pre dawn because they're going off on Sunday morning, and you can't not think about how is this going to look with a green code on? You don't want to be thinking it, but you're a human being. Of course, Tiger Woods, he's got four coats.

What's got one coat? But he's got four winds. He knows what that whole deal is like plus black and red and green. He knows that that whole thing that's right. He's not worried about a clash, he's not worried about Gosh's he's so, he's so, he's in the club forever.

Mulinari has got the passing thought. And thank you, Francesco molinary On behalf of this writer for sharing with me so I could use it so um, but what an insight for what it's like to be in that moment on Sunday morning trying to do some by the way, and this is the guy won the Bridge showpen a few months earlier or a half year earlier. Was it Wise Cough or was it Miller who apparently had that thought crossed their mind on fifteen on Sunday before they hit in the water and they said it man green

Jacket's gonna look good on me. I don't know that one. It could be either, but I know, I know wives Scott said on twelve, when you stood on twelve and those fans are close to when you're on the part three twelve, he's like, I felt, I felt naked of fryeball, you know, and you know, and here's the best dress guy on tour with you know, the perfect posture and the perfect sweater and the Kashmir this, and you know,

just the beautiful dresser and I felt naked. So yeah, they it's great that they're willing to admit their frailties. I think one of the things that draws us all to the game, no matter what level which we play, is those frailties are basically the same for all of us. And I think that's why, you know, so many of the golf writers play as well, and the broadcasters as well, and to some degree, even though the stakes of course

are way way different. But but what we do when they do are there are a lot of similarities, a lot of differences, but a lot of similarities as well. Yeah, speak of similarities. One of the best debates in all of sports, I think, and of course the best debate in golf is Jack versus Tiger. You said this early in the book, and I guess I've never really thought about it. You were talking about their accomplishments in the

major championships. You said, two men with three career Grand Slam So Tiger and Jack have won the Grand Slam three times over. Nobody else has won it twice over. So that's a good example of how much different they are. And then late in the book, one of the last things you talked about were these two. You said, Tiger Woods is the best player in history, you said, and

I believe Jack is the greatest of all time. So you're You're kind of on both camps there, and I feel like I'm in the same camp as you dominance his ability to win. I feel like Tiger eclipse Jack, while Jack obviously has what Tiger cannot reach yet. Right, Shane, you we're looking at this the same way. Uh, to me, Jack, you know to be the greatest. You know, I'll leave

used to say, you know, I'm the greatest of all time. Well, who really knows what that means, especially in boxing, because you've just got the one guy that you've got to beat, and you know, Uh, it's hard to compare the generations. But what does it mean to be the greatest of all time? What's I would say, it's the stamp you leave, you know, on your sport. If we're gonna you know, definancial athletes in this conversation, And I think Jack's stamp

on golf is unmatched. I think Tiger's record is unmatched in part because and I know a lot of people disagree with this. Jack be a tremendous group of crusty tough men, you know, from Hubert Green and John Maffey, you know who aren't often part of the conversation. Of course, you know, Billy Casper and Arnold and Johnny Miller and other true legends of the game. Uh, Tiger be fewer

of those kinds of personalities. But the population, the world population of super league golfers that Tiger had to be is vastly bigger. If you look at now, what is Jack Happy's got five p g A So when he won those pgs, well, he's beating a bunch of American golfers and a bunch of club pros. A bunch of club pros who could, on their best four days together, could never come within five or six or ten shots of Jack Nicholas on his for best days or even

it's four average days. In other words, he's got so much of that field beat before you know the first shot is played Thursday morning, So Tigers beating a much deeper, deeper pool. But for overall impact on the game, I don't know how anyone can top Jack Nicholas because he, to me is the true heir of Jones in terms of the values of the game that transcend the actual planning of the game. And just to finish up this one thought, Arnold's career, it's overstated in terms of what

he did. It was a tremendous, tremendous career. But we didn't win the career Grand Slam. Um uh. He didn't win all over the world like like Gary, like Garrett Player has done. But Arnold's overall stamp on the game is immeasurable because he lifted the game, and he lifted people. Uh uh. He made the game better. And that I know.

None of this is definable, but it's deep in me my belief of what constitutes greatness, and that's why, among many other things that I could add to that, but that's why Jack is number one in r was way up there for me as well. A wild nugget in the book I found out about you nine rounds of golf with Trump? Who would have I ever thought of You're almost a double digits. Well, I've got. I meant nine and a half. I don't know what went one day we played eighteen, and then he went out for

an emergency nine. That the West Bond Beach course where he's got twenty seven holes, which abuts the prison where Tiger actually was detained for a while. After that that horrible night, Well what happened there? Shame. The only reason that Trump want to play golf with me was that I was writing up his golf courses for Sports Illustrated. In other words, I had something he wanted, which was a good write up for about the courses in its owner for Sports Illustrated. So he wasn't gonna let me

far out of my sight. And then he you know, he's a very he's a very congenial golf partner. We're not gonna do a whole political thing here, but just a limited to what it's like to play golf with Donald Trump. He's a lot of fun. To play with. It's not golf, as you and I know, and I'm a ninety shooter, but you know, if I tell you shoeed ninety three, I probably shot pretty close to ninety one.

That's not the case with Trump, you know, because Trump plays like millions do, just a very sort of casual golf. Only problem is he said by bluest six to Bill, you should put in your story. But he's a capable golfer and he's fun to play with. That anyway, That's how I played nine half rounds of golf with Donald Trump was because because I had something you wanted. Yeah. I had Rick Riley on last year about his book. If you want to deep dive into the into the

Trump golf world, you can listen to that podcast. I just I was. I was shocked and surprised. I mean, I know, he obviously has his life has has been in and out of golf for years and years and years. But I was like, man, that's that's a lot of rounds. Of course, most of them, if not all of them, assuming happened before he was president. You you wrote a piece, and the last thing I wanna talk about is I love this piece. It was after of course the passing

of Kobe Bryant. You wrote a piece and it compared Kobe and Tiger in their careers. Can you just expand on their similarities, you know, kind of like hat tipping back to the points you were making in that piece, right, Well, you know, they're they're they're similar in age, They're they're transformational because uh, they Kobe had appeal way beyond there were basket There were people who have the most casual interest or no interest in NBA basketball who were drawn

to Kobe. To Kobe style, to Kobe's sophistication with language, uh uh, to Kobe's openness. Tigers different personality type from Kobe. Uh, but Tiger also was played a very uh similar role. He he had tremendous appeal for the way he carried himself and when he played the game, uh to people who really had passing interests or even no interest in golf.

Uh and uh and they dominated their games. Uh, they played through injuries and they also you know, if you have a six year run in golf, it's tremendous, and Tigers has been twenties. Uh, Kobe the same. I mean, if you have a six year NBA NBA cruise tremendous. What did Kobe have close to twenty So the longevity is astounding. Uh, some of the off court and off

course problems are are are broadly similar. The commitment to education, the commitment to their to their own children in the face the pressures of being a public person and having the steps as we all do in life. Uh, there was just a lot of similarities there. And I had the feeling and I don't know this, but just listening to the little that I've heard Tiger talk about Kobe, I don't think there was an everyday closeness at all

between the two. Of course, Tiger worships, the worship the Lakers are growing up, but I think they probably didn't really need to be, because, uh, their understanding of each other's life was on on such a deep level and such as really a pround level. All right, last thing, Michael, I'm gonna ask you, if you retired tomorrow, what three majors? And I know this is putting you on the spot,

but what three major championships? On Sunday, as you're sitting in front of your computer preparing to write, were you most excited about writing the story? Which three events, and I'm assuming twenty nineteens probably gonna kind of land in one of the three spots. The weird thing about nine and because you know much and no you'll believe me,

but most people won't. But that's okay. I was rooting like crazy for Frantriscal Millinary to win that tournament, and people would say that's crazy because if he, if Tiger wins, that's great for your book. Yes, it was good for the book The Tiger One, no question about that. But Millinary is my favorite player in the game right now. I love the way he goes about his business, and

also I'm looking for moments for character reveals itself. I've said this before, so I hope it doesn't sound to reverse, but I deeply believe it. And had Tiger made a double on eighteen and lost in a playoff, we would have learned a lot more about Tiger's character then then through winning, and uh so that would have been I would have been very drawn to that. Having said that, definitely, I put I put the nineteen the two thousand nineteen Masters.

I put the ninety seven Masters on there for lots of different reasons, one of which was just a house full of s I writers, all with different assignments, writing it up on deadline, pulling all nighters and trying to capture something original about about an event that had legs that went and reached, that went way way beyond golf, that was very meaningful. And then because I really grew up on him, uh Watson had Turnberry. Uh Uh that really springs to mind because Watson handled the defeat of

that playoff just Stewart sinking the two thousand nine Open Championship. Um, he handled it with more grace than than an I did. Trying to write it up, and I remember leaving the town. I remember leaving the President Turnbury and it was pitch black.

I mean it was nearly it was nearly actually was not pitch blacks what I'm saying it because it was it was nearly dawn, which comes very early in Scotland in summer, you know, probably about what four third or five in the more, And trying to just trying to get that. Were you at that event, Chane, No, but I lived over there for summer and I remember that. I always said it never got dark. It always got midnight blue, but it never got actually dark. You know,

you never felt like the sky was black. Yeah, that's true. So those those three spring to mind very quickly. But you know, the matriction runs wild on these questions because you know, if you read about the game, as I know you do and I do, you know what about sars and making that two and thirty five? You know what about Arnold and fifty eight lay, don't you? You know?

So there's things that exist only on YouTube. Erland highlight reels are only in our imagination from reading that you know are part of uh, you know, there's they're scrolling around in my mind too. But for events where I was actually there, those three, those three would be probably the first thing that's room to mind. Yeah, you know, I I've been to your point about some of the majors we maybe forget about sometimes when we talk about the greatest ones. I've been during all of this, where

there's no sports and nothing on TV. I've been diving into old final rounds of Masters. All those masters are on YouTube. I've been trying to watch the ones that maybe we don't consider greatest masters ever. I watched the Kenny Perry one a couple of weeks ago. I want to get into the Zack Johnson Masters, because you know, Tiger had a chance to win that one as well, and that was one of the tougher modern day masters

we've ever had. And as you watch these ones, that again, the nineties seven Masters might have seven million views on YouTube, and you look at some of the other ones and they have a hundred thousand views on there. But they're great in their own regards, and they're fun to roll through. They're fun to see which moment changed, what was the you know, two thousand, nineteen twelve hole of the O nine Masters. And I've I found them really revealing because

it's easy to forget about the great moments there. My last, my last thing I want to ask you again putting you on the spot, but we have free time right now. Any other golf books beside yours and the ones you've penned over the years, any golf books that you would push people towards, of course, after they read the Second Life of Tiger Woods? Well really really, if if you've never read a book on Tiger Woods, I would I would probably start with the Contain Bennett book, uh, because

still give you a scope of his life. I find the book semi depressing, Uh, Shane, what was your experience a little bit? It was it just it just bummed you out because it was it was so much about again that the person that is Tiger and the demons that exists and and and this bubble my life is so I can't relate to it really because it's such a self absorbed life of just golf and me, me, me, And I think what's interesting what's happened since then is he's he's I think, broken out of that too to

a great degree. And how he actually did that will lead to the third book that I would put ahead of my book excep if it's not written yet, which would be if Tiger ever writes his own book, which you know he says it's going to do, and I hope he does do it because I think it'll be

a I think it'll be a great exercise for him. Uh. But you know, if someone is new to reading books about golf and they loved golf, they're welcome to write to me, and I'd be I'd be happy to to give a listen and be a little easier to do if I woul at home begin my bookshelf right now. But uh, you know, any of the Jenkins books. George Plimpton's The boguey Man is one of my favorite books of all time. Golf in the Kingdom was a huge hit for me, and it's a shame did you have

did you read it to do it or not? Like, yeah, you touched on it late late in second life and and I love that you kept bringing that up. Yeah, it's a monumental book to me. It doesn't you know a lot of people don't register and that's you know that that's the reading experience. There are people who will, you know, take a book at this book. You know that I just just say, I feel like I know

this already, and those oh this is opening. So you know, the reading experience is so individual and people bring their life experience to It's very hard to say, but you know, to go back to the thing that you first said. And I know the quote from George Plimpton, but you said it right from the start. And I'm not sure who really is responsible for the smaller the ball, the

better writing will Golf has such a rich literature. Um, some of your listeners will know, but but some wanted the names Herbert Warren Wind and Bernard Darwin, who has Charles Darwin's I think I think nephew maybe grinstematic nephew. Uh, you know, long well long before your time, Chaine, a little bit before my time. And uh so you can have a lot of fun in this period getting lost in golf books in Chaine. I really this whole time that we've been talking, so you know, the occasional lapse,

this has been a pleasure. We've been on the phone now for getting close to an hour and just to get sort of lost in golf and not thinking about C D D or any you know, we'll talk about nineteen right now. It's not it's not two numbers at the end of the virus. You know, it's the whole where Arnold would you know, uh down a couple of uh with his buddies out fins for all that. Anyway, it's nice to have this break, and I'm not apologizing

at all. And you know, in this interview or any other time I talked about the book because we need and we deserve a break from the surreal lentless news. And you know, my own take on is that we're getting closer to good news every single day. Uh, but of course we are, and and that golf gives us we who are serious golfers. I've written this, but uh

so I don't want to go go with this. Guy just came up with this is pretty good, but uh, I think we are Golf requires tremendous reservoirs of patients and planning and actually teamwork to get through something. You know, if you and I go around for around to golf and so we're playing, you know, in a match at our do you play Whisper Chain or where do you play? Play a Phoenix country club? Oh wow? Uh, it's Jessica Marksberry's husband. Is he still he's there? Yeah? Great, unbelievable guy, Paul.

He uh, he's he's got the accident. They just had a second they just had a second child, and he's still out there. He's still out there making sure everything's running. You know. I mean, there's still golf to be played in this state, at least for the time am on Tuesday. I know everything's changing minutes a minute, but as of right now, there's a there's golf to be played. But yeah, it's it's it's a fabulous fan thest Golf Course. Uh yeah, well so so Paul's wife is my colleague Jessica Marksbury

one of the great people on this world. But anyway, the point being is that the very things that draw us to golf, um and part of it is playing by the rules and doing our part, you know, leaving that bunker in better shape than when you walked into it, are the very things that I'll get it through this, uh, you know, through this unfortunate episode that we're in. But we but we will get through it, and we'll have golf before too long. Here, as I let you go,

we have nothing going on in terms of sports. As you said, we're sitting around just passing the time with whatever we do to pass the time. If it's a puzzle, if you're playing chess, if you're starting a new hobby or a new book. You're a man that is not ventured into the social media world. Are we getting closer to social media for for for this reporter, No, not at all. I thought maybe Simon and Schuster would push it towards it with the book coming out, But you've

always avoided Twitter. I'm impressed. I did say, yeah, I have no interest. I did say that one of my bosses at Sports Illustrator before I left Sports Sollstor went to Golf magazine and golf dot com with my friend and Colin Alan Ship Knuk and and others. Uh uh and that was a lifeline given where sports solsittors right now. And uh, I want to thank Howard missing every opportunity to get Jack Cooks is business part of the bought

Golf magazine golf dot Com from sports solicitor. But anyway, one of my former bosses said he had me on the phone for something. I said, so, look, if you're thinking about firing me, because you know I'm not doing any social media, could you let me know ahead of time because I will start if that's what I need to do to keep my job. I don't really want to. And the guy's like, no, I understand you're not on it at all. And Ship knucks on it too much.

It's a perfect balance. Yeah. Well, he says he's taking a page from from him ideas and me of you know, wanting to do us of it. Uh, but I do. I just like to express myself in other ways. I guess it's got the point. But I'm I'm I'm glad for people who do get something out of it. And I think any way that people. I'm not negative and I think I know, I think people need to communicate with one another, and I think that changes over time.

And I'm a big user of email and people are you know my emails writ in the book or you know it's very available online as well, and anybody who writes to me, I pretty much right back to everybody writes to me, because I love connecting with people who connect to the written work. Your email address is literally in the back of the book. You can check it out. The Second Life a Tiger was Michael Bamberger. I appreciate it.

Read the book, you'll love it. It'll bring you back to a happier time in our lives when the Masters was on and Tiger was battling it out with some other superstars, and you weave through his life and it is a crazy, crazy what life at forty four and we can only hope to see more and more of it. I appreciate the time, my friend, and we'll catch up

soon down the road. Jane, I appreciate the time. I mean, you've done me a great favor here, give me a little break and uh and letting me talk about the book. So I appreciate it, so, thank you very much. We're gonna take a quick break and be right back. A big thanks to Michael Bamberger for his time. As I mentioned to start, please, if you're a reader, if you're someone that likes golf and likes golf books, check out The Second Life of Tiger Woods. I promise you you'll

enjoy it. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate that as well. Send me a note on Instagram at the Clubhouse Pod. If you're at home and you'd like a Clubhouse Pod sticker. If you want one of those, go on Instagram at the Clubhouse Pod. Send the note. I'll send one. It's the least I can do for spending an hour with me every couple of weeks or so. I hope you guys have a safe and healthy and smart rest of your week, and we'll be back next week.

I've got a few of these in the can already, so hopefully there will be more consistent clubhouses as we go on. That's my hope. Nothing else to do. My studio here is at my house. That's where I record. Let's keep them going. Have a great week. The Clubhouse was Shane Bacon as a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from My heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.