Three things your elders should never do, coming up now on the Church Revitalization Podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast brought to you by the Malthus Group team, where each week we tackle important, actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now, here's your hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu. Welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I'm joined by my friend and cohost, A.J. Mathieu. Here we go.
Okay. Eldership. Now I think we have to start this episode just with the requisite, maybe just clarification that not every church that's listening to this podcast has an elder structure. Some of you are Baptist churches that have a deacon board that kind of functions like an elder board. Sometimes. Yeah. Or they don't or or maybe they don't. Some of you don't have anything at all. Some of you have an executive team. Some of you have a church council. Some of you have, you know, a
presbytery I mean, not a presbytery. A session if you're Presbyterian. So, you know, there's there's all kinds of governance structures out there. So Yeah. Your mileage may vary, but the principles of the things we're talking about, I think, translate whether you have an elder led model or not. Is that fair? Yeah. I think that's I think that's it. We're talking most senior level oversight of the church with some plurality of people. Yeah.
Think of the function maybe more than the name. Don't get too caught up in the name. We're proponents of elder led churches, but, you know, if that doesn't happen to be your situation either by choice or just by consequence, that's okay. You can still take these principles and apply them. One other thing I wanna mention before we dive into the three things, because there are three things that these elders should never
do. Before we dive into that, one thing that your elders should do is sign up for the church checkup challenge. I like that for a second. Be a good move. Yeah. It'd be good thing for you to do with your elders as a team to go through this together. It's a 7 day deal. It's free. No payment information required. Just go to malphursgroup.com/challenge. This is the last week that we are promoting this. So, get in there. Hop on this. Make it happen. Malphursgroup.com/challenge.
Sign up today. No credit card required. It's gonna give you 7 day full access to the Healthy Churches Toolkit. Yeah. So you can browse around. You can, you can get into some of the training, check out the resources, use, all of the tools that we've got available there. And I think on an administrative side for a lot of things, ministry side, your elders would find that valuable, your church council. Any staff people that you have, get them in there so they
can check it out. After 7 days, love to see you become a subscriber. We are adding content to that monthly in addition to, workshop support. Some we got some big stuff coming very soon. It is not a static wait to announce it. I just but we can't just yet. Yeah. That sounds like such a tease. Like, they can, but they're choosing not to. Genuinely, at this point, it's it's it's at a I can't can't can't announce it right now. Yeah. But but the point is, it is
it's not a static website. Like, okay, there's this there's these things, and if I need them, fine. But, no, it's growing. It's constantly growing, adding things, and we're doing, we do live monthly workshops. There's coaching available in there for you on an as needed basis. You can, schedule that. So awesome stuff in the toolkit. Definitely go over there. Get a free week. Look at it, and, see how it can help your church and your ministry leaders. Yep. Yep. Alright.
Awesome. Okay. So let's get into these, three things that your elders or whatever you call them should never do. Yeah. That we could have done more than 3 for sure. But We could have done more than 3. These are these are You would have gotten maybe more angry with us if we got past these 3. These there's a we would have got more. Some people will get mad. Some people won't like Some people will get mad at these 3. If we'd gone past these 3 It would have been sure.
We The yeah. Would have gotten probability of anger would have gone up for sure. Mhmm. Okay. Here we go. The first one is is just getting in the weeds, and that might sound a little bit broad, but, we're gonna help, help hone this in a little bit. For the most part, a lot of times, it's well, it's just not clear. I think there's a lack of defined job function for elders in a lot of churches or for, again, whatever you call them or whatever you might have them
do. It's not clearly defined a lot of times. There's not policies in place. There's not good onboarding. There's not good training. There's a lot of reasons why an elder board that are members of an elder team end up kind of getting outside of their lane getting into things. And whatever other
points, I'll get a little more detailed into this. But elders should have actually a fairly limited function, of, you know, spiritual oversight of the church, big forward vision level decision making, and then, you know, some a few other things related to that. But too often, we see elders in churches just really getting into the minutia of operations and functions of particular ministry areas, stepping on the toes, sometimes, of, staff and volunteers. So get
out of the weeds. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's helpful to take a step back and, think about the language that the New Testament uses, that Paul uses, in the New Testament to describe this function or this role or this office. Right? And there are a couple of words that typically get associated with this office. The first one is the word episcopos, which gets translated sometimes as bishop,
sometimes gets translated as overseer. But in the same breath, like, if you go to Titus 1, in the same breath that Paul is using the term episkopos, he also uses the other word, which is associated always gets translated as elder. But at least that sort of hints that in Paul's mind, those terms are connected or and it's maybe the same office or the same function or the same role. And so, the the the that first word, episkopos, in overseer,
means just that. It's providing it's about management skill or capability and providing oversight to or managing the affairs of the church. So this is why we would say elders are ultimately responsible for the finances of the church as well
as the spiritual health of the church and so on. It doesn't mean that there can't be a finance team or a personnel team or some of these other teams that can help help to manage it, but the accountability goes all the way and the oversight goes all the way up to the top. They're the ones for making sure that the church stays healthy and functioning well. That's true for both the material things of the church, but also the spiritual
things of the church. That second word, presbuteros, implies wisdom, and it even, to some degree, implies age that you that you wouldn't have someone who's too young, becoming an elder because they need to have a little bit of life on them. Like, they need to have maybe, been punched in the teeth, a little bit by life and and learned how to to get back up from that, to recover from that, to repent from sin. You know, if you've never really been challenged, how do you know how you'll handle a
challenge? So it's important that your elders be, those in the church who have some life experience and know how to handle the slings and arrows, that come with leadership and come with just life and living. And and so what we're trying to avoid is, if the role of an elder is to provide oversight, if that's a keyword, oversight. I'm saying that I'm making the case that it's fundamentally, impossible for an elder to be deep in the weeds in a particular ministry and also provide oversight to
the ministry. And my my case for this comes straight from Acts chapter 6, where you have the apostles where this exact thing happens. There's some debate about whether or not the elders themselves or whether or not the apostles themselves were actually conducting the daily distribution of the food to the widows. I think that they were, because I think when they say it wouldn't be right for us to wait on tables, in my view implies that they had
been doing this. But, even even if that weren't the case, case, even if they were just the ones sort of managing the daily distribution of the food, they said it would not be right for us to manage this ministry and neglect the ministry of the word and prayer. And so the focus there was it's not necessarily a zero sum game, A.J., but to some degree, it is. You only have so
much attention. And if I'm if I if I'm dedicating maximal attention or significant attention to a particular ministry within the church, no matter how good or important it is, what am I neglecting? And very often what happens when we're working with a team that has elders is that I see I see guys who are serving in 3 or 4 or 5 different ministries of the church, very passionate about those things, and they're not thinking
about the big things. And if they're not thinking about the big things, who is? And and usually the answer is no one. Yeah. And so they're neglecting their their higher calling in order to, devote time to an important but and to some but to some degree, lesser calling. Not lesser in the kingdom, but just it's not it's not what the calling of an elder is. Mhmm. I've been going on and on. I'm sorry. No. No. No. That's okay. Get a get a word in edgewise.
No. I think that's I think that's all good. That's all good. Yeah. The access piece is you know, that's really interesting, not to get too sidetracked on whether they were the ones doing it or not. I think you could also it could you could almost read it as though somebody was. It wasn't them, and it was somebody, and maybe the focus is more on hold on. We actually need good qualified people to be doing this because the ones that have been doing it obviously weren't doing a good job. They
were, you know, they were showing favoritism and things. We need people that truly are have a have a calling and will handle this rightly. Regardless, it still stands that the apostles and and here, you know, expanded to elders do have a particular function that they should be more staying in a lane on. And, and I think that's that's that's the big takeaway. And, you know, we work with a lot of churches that people have varying views on this. We totally get that. And, you know, in the
end, it's your decision. It's not ours. We're gonna make make a recommendation, but have certainly dealt with churches that they really did want elders to be part of leading ministries. And sometimes it almost comes across as almost an arbitrary division of the labor. And I'm like, well, is this the best way to have somebody leading in other areas of the church, where just because they're an elder, now they get assigned to something? Like, is that is that how we want to
find the best leaders for particular ministry areas? You know, forsaking them, perhaps, calling and gifting and passion and all the things that might might make somebody a better fit. So, I think Or they'll or they'll, like, misunderstand, I think, what's intended when when Paul talks about that that an elder should be able to teach Mhmm. Or that's even part of the role is is is is teaching
to then say, okay. Well, then then all of our elders need to be teaching a small group or a Sunday school class. Like, I I don't know that that's I don't know that that's a
good idea. Not that they couldn't, you know, cert on a rotation or certainly fill in, but to tether them to one specific small group or one specific Sunday school class actually negates their their higher calling of being able to use that teaching ability to guard sound doctrine at the macro level of the church, which is more important than their ability to personally lead a group of 7 or 8 people in a small group. So I think it's a misapplication of the intent of that, which is to guard
sound doctrine within the church. And and it also it's just not possible to overlay the 1st century church context and the way those churches were run and structured in in our own context. So I think you have to be looking for these principles and then applying them properly. And I think it's in my view, and people will trust I know that people disagree with me on this, by the way, because I've I've had these conversations with churches that I've worked
with. I think it's a misapplication of the principle to tether an elder to one specific class. Mhmm. I I I think that it misses out on their skill. How much greater multiplication could we see if, if an elder able to teach was instead using that to teach others to teach, you know? Get some second Timothy 2:2 happening in here. Yeah. And we've got well qualified people instructing and discipling and raising up other teachers. You know, to me, that's a better
use of their time and their skills and gifts. Yeah. So don't hear me say, oh, they should never teach a class or they should, you know, never be involved with a small group or whatever. They should only go to board meetings and do nothing else. I'm not saying that. I'm talking about tethering them, kind of limiting them to one very narrow scope, I think, is probably a misapplication.
The other thing that I want to say on this before we move on, and we'll move on to the the next thing here, is that there are some churches that we work with, A.J., where the elders feel that just by virtue of the fact that they are an elder, that they have a right to have an opinion on everything that happens in the church. You know, they have a right to talk about the
music, you know, or, why didn't like this song? Or, you know, they have a right to talk about, you know, the Children's Brillouin ministry really ought to do this thing this way. And without I don't wanna bleed into the next point, but I'll just say, you know, you you don't have to have an opinion on everything. Part of part of being an elder is empowering the people who are beneath you. So focus on those higher level things,
bigger picture vision things. Try not. It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, but it it it doesn't mean that you're entitled to an opinion on everything. And that just because you have said opinion, that we all have to sort of stop, drop, and roll, you know,
based on what you're saying. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think there's an element of wisdom and humility to try to divorce yourself from your own personal preferences and that of just what is a good practice, what is what is good to move the church forward for, you know, most people. You know, I mean and it's easy to and then, you know, there's some personality in there that that affects that. I this is something that I try to remain very open with and not impose
my personal preferences, certainly, on any churches that we work with. But even in my own church, in in other aspects of life, you know, recognize what it what is just what my preference is versus what is what is good or right or best for most. You know, the elder who who constrains himself to only speak when it's significant sounds much more wise than the elder who opines on every single thing that happens in the church. It it's it's like it's like inflation. You know?
The the more you say, the less it's worth. And so, you know, having the wisdom to go, I didn't love that. But saving it up for something you think is significant and and being thoughtful about that and go, is this something I really need to speak into, or is it just is this just a preference thing? And if it's just a preference thing, then, you know, share it with your wife like a normal person. You know? Yeah. You don't have to have. Like, you're supposed to have if you're in
hunger. They want it. Yeah. That's right. Just just just, like, write it on your note. Like, why did he make that reference, in the sermon that is ridiculous? My church, I will I'll my church sang a song at Christmas time that I thought was ridiculous, but I mostly kept that to myself and and to my wife for the most part. You're not an elder, so you were But I'm not an elder. You would have been Even as that's fair fair. But even as not an elder, I'm like, it cheapens it cheapens my opinions on
other things because the people in my church know what I do. If I were to give input on every single thing that I go, I wanna do that, are they gonna wanna ask for my advice or not wanna ask for my advice? Yeah. My wife hears all my opinions about church. Few others do. As she should. You know? And that's okay. Save it for her. Alright. Our next one is what an elder should not do. An elder should not act unilaterally unilaterally,
in that, just as an individual. And you were kinda hinting into this even a little bit, Scott. An elder I mean, you're gonna say this better than me. I'll I'll just maybe more so tee this up for you, to to speak into this more because I like the way you've I hear you I've heard you phrase this numerous times, and I and I like how you explain it. But an an elder, as an individual, should not be acting as a lone ranger anywhere in the church and
does not have individual authority. An elder has authority within the context of the elder board, body council team, whatever they are. Elders work together for for things, not individually as, you know, chiefs, or or single decision makers. I'm gonna let you explain that better than me, Scott, but I think this is an important thing that probably a lot of people, maybe even pastors and elders, don't keep in their mind that I am a part of something bigger than me.
I am I have not been given carte blanche to go run rough shot over the church. Yeah. I actually think you said it really well. I mean, so I think the phrasing I typically use, is that an elder does not have any authority over any individual within the church except when they act as a group. Yeah. There you go. So they that authority is limited. It's constrained to to acting as a group. And that that's true even for for the lead
pastor. So the lead pastor only has authority over individual people in as much as the group the the elder team may have delegated certain certain types of authority to him, to say, you know, make financial decisions up to a certain degree, you know, or hire or fire certain positions up to a certain degree, greater or lesser degree with so, but the the lead pastor even is a first among equals, and his his power is limited to to a certain degree except when they operate within the group.
So, and that's especially true for lay elders who who, who aren't on staff. They they can't just walk into a room and say, I'm an elder here, so you all listen up. And and there's some good reason for that. There's there's wisdom there, and there's also practicality. So from from a practicality standpoint, a lot of churches that I work with that are moving to an elder model, one of the big fears they have among their staff is, oh, no. Am I going from having 1 boss to having 7 bosses?
Yeah. So when I hear something from, you know, elder, you know, Jim, do I have to treat that the same as as when I hear something from the lead pastor who is who is my direct supervisor? And the answer is no. Jim doesn't have authority over you in the same way that, you know, pastor Dan does. Like, if Dan is your is your supervisor. So This needs to be clearly documented though. Like, literally, this
needs to be written. Yeah. Right. So you can have a conversation with Jim and Jim can ask you a question or he can be, like, hey, I liked that song you sang, or hey. That was a weird choice for Christmas, which is the thing that I wouldn't just say at my church. But, you know, I beyond it just being his opinion, it doesn't mean anything. It, unless, unless the group gets together and they have a conversation and say, I really wanna say what song we sang, A.J.. Can I say it? I
don't know I don't know if anyone's listening. It's not a We sang a Christianized version of a secular song that and the secular song is not a good song, or it it's about adult themes. How about that? That's just that's awesome. Talk about it again off air. I know it's it's back on your mind. You know? Back to me after we're done recording, Scott. I'm sorry this is going up for you, though, to be listening. Listen. The the secular version of this song, it has adult
themes. And they did change the words to it, but it still had a in my mind, I'm going, this song has adult themes, and we're singing Christmas. Anyways, that's my opinion. Now if I'm not an elder at my church, but if I were, I could have brought that up and been like, hey. Are we gonna have a little chitchat about this song? And everybody else could have been like, Scott, you're overreacting. The words were changed. It was basically just the melody. You
are overreacting. And I could have been like, alright. You're okay. Fine. That's fine. Or they could have gone, hey. You know what? You're right. We should be more thoughtful about the songs we're singing. Maybe we don't do secular songs that have adult connotations in them. Yeah. But, again, that would have been a great conversation to have at an elder meeting, not one elder with the worship pastor. With the worship pastor. Exactly.
I could have been annoyed by that, brought it up at the elder meeting, and either and this is the this is the wisdom part. The wisdom of the group goes, Scott, you you're overreacting to this. It's just not that big of a deal. You need to let this one go. Or the wisdom of the group would say, hey, I do think that maybe
this wasn't entirely appropriate. Let's make sure that in the future, we have we're using some better, you know, prudential judgment, which doesn't mean that the set list has to get approved by the elders, by the way. It would just mean maybe a message that goes down to the the worship department saying, hey. Let's be thoughtful about what we're doing, and and
maybe avoid something that might be construed in a negative way. So I don't need I'm I'm only trying to bring this one up, A.J., because I was trying to bring you a personal example, and I didn't wanna call out anybody. A church any churches that I've worked with in the past. I'm trying to just point the point point the mirror at old Scott Ball. But so the practicality standpoint is staff shouldn't have or volunteer ministry leaders shouldn't have 7 bosses. They should have 1
boss. And the and the and the wisdom part comes from when you act as a team, you mute out anybody's individual preferences or, pet peeves, you know, to discern what is actually good advice for for the church, if that makes sense. Yeah. And there's an element of wisdom that needs to be, employed as well to just even be aware, even casual conversations because your position holds authority. And depending on your relationship with with various people in the church, you just have got to be aware.
Especially when I'm at church, I'm having conversation with people, they're seeing you as an elder. And so I just think you've got to manage your words and your thoughts, and because you could have, accidental influence, if if maybe you're too just too casual with throwing out, your thoughts and things. So Yeah. So think about, like, acts 15, just to give a concrete example of this from from the text. Acts 15, this is this is where they're debating whether or not new Christians needed to be
circumcised. And, also, I think they debated food sacrificed to idols, I think, also came up. Correct? I believe those were together. Yeah. They had opinions on those. Yeah. And and so you have Paul essentially calling Peter onto the carpet and going, you're you're adding to the gospel here, my friend. And you're being a bit of a hypocrite, actually. He he more or less calls
him a hypocrite. And, Peter, who is humble, receives that, and they have the conversation, and they ultimately agree that, yeah, that that that they don't need to be circumcised, but that they should avoid eating food sacrificed. It feels a little compromised. Like, we came to a compromise, here amongst us. We think we have a little bit restricts, I'm sure with the spirit of the Paul further clarifies this in little
his later writings where he says, you know what? If if eating this food sacrificed to idols makes someone feel as though they're worshiping that other god, then you should definitely not eat it. That would yeah. And you're kind of like a stumbling block message. Yeah. Right. Because I think that that was actually the elders the apostle's
point when they came to this. It's like, some people are saying that when you're eating a food sacrificed to an it was sacrificed to an idol, then consuming that meat is an act of idolatry in and of itself, in which case, actually, it is it is bad. If in your heart is an act of idolatry, then you shouldn't do it. It's like a matter of conscience issue. Yeah. Not to get too sidetracked. Kind of fits in with what we're saying. As an elder, the way you act amongst the congregation
members, it it could affect somebody in various ways. We need to we need to hold that with wisdom and, handled rightly. So And which, by the way, there were there were Christians who were who were crucified for not choosing to do certain things that might be perceived as, bowing bowing down to other gods or to the to the emperor. Tough decisions were made. Tough decisions were made. Yeah. Alright. Our third thing that elders should not do, and that is neglect
spiritual care amongst the congregation. So, we would we would hope and desire to see that this is an aspect that is, again, clearly articulated for in the function of elders. And that this is an area in which commonly a lot of elder boards will divide the work. But this is one of those higher level, components of being an elder in overseeing the health and well-being of the body of Christ to provide spiritual care to the congregation. And so, yeah, maybe this is you can divide this up
any number of ways. But, but and, again, another reason why we're saying these first things that we're saying, don't overload our elders with things that would neglect them from kind of what we see in act 6, of these higher level things that they should be devoting more time to, one of them being
spiritual care. Yeah. You know, I mean, this we could probably go on a tangent on this because, you know, how many times we've heard of and people, almost demanding sometimes, their pastor be the one that visits them in a hospital. Mhmm. Or even, you know, churches. This is a luxury position for sure, but, you know, a a care pastor, somebody that's this is, like, their full time gig is just doing that. Personally, not don't get too excited about those kinds of things that, that we would do that.
I think care for the body should be happening within the body, but this is definitely an an, I think, a good alignment at the elder level, to be providing this for the church. Yeah. So, and we're like, we do all things in the mouthpiece group. We're trying to keep it keep it in the text here. Paul uses, the the Greek word, poimen, and actually Peter uses this word a lot to describe pastors or shepherds in the church.
And we we see this function connected to the role of an elder, in places like Ephesians 20 when, Paul is giving his farewell I'm sorry. Acts 20. He's giving this to his, to the elders in in Ephesus in Acts 20. Sorry. I misspoke. And in that, he's giving he's speaking to the elders, and he and he encourages them to keep watch over yourselves and all the flock. So he's implying this shepherding capacity to
the eldership role. So, I know it's a little bit like piecing these parts together, and we're all just doing our best to try and understand the role. But I think when you look at the Timothy passages and the and the Titus passages as well as this address and as well as what Peter says,
I I don't think it's hard. I don't think you have to, like it's not like a magic eye thing where you have to kind of squint and look sideways to see that there is an intention that that elders would be overseers managing the affairs of the church, but also providing spiritual nourishment and care, and you need not look further than what Jesus says to Peter, you know, there in in Galilee after his resurrection where he's when he's forgiving and restoring Peter, he tells him to feed my sheep.
And so it's this it's this call for care. So if in your church, the only person providing that care is the senior pastor, you're failing at understanding the biblical mandate for leadership, which is a plurality of shepherds providing care over the flock, both in terms of guarding sound doctrine, but also providing that that comfort and compassion, that is so necessary for people who have fallen into sin or have or or are sick, or are in a crisis.
So I one practical piece of advice, A.J., that I'll, that we give to to churches is to be sure that you divide up your meetings, because what tends to happen, you know, especially in churches where and this is the majority of the churches we work with have all male eldership, and, the tendency among a group of guys is that for the for the meeting to very quickly devolve into business. And once the business discussion starts, you can't stop that train. So prayer is bookends of a
business meeting. So I would encourage you to have 2 separate meetings. 1 where business is not allowed. That's simply focused on prayer for the church and studying the word together. So maybe there's an issue that you're trying to decide upon. You know, how are we going to land on this cultural issue? Or, we have a crisis in the church, and we're trying to discern, you know, what's our view
on cessationism or something like that. Like, spending time in the word together, spending time praying for the church, for praying for families, and so on, and separating that from the business of the church, what's going on with budgets and ministry performance and personnel issues and all of that. Have those meetings be separate, and
and it will lead to a much healthier church. Very rarely do I encounter a church where their elders are regularly praying and fasting, not just saying that they are, but really doing it, and then and and it's dysfunctional. It's just that's a rare thing. Yeah. That's wise counsel. I think that's I think that's a good one, yeah, for us to finish up on. So three things,
elders shouldn't be doing. Getting in the weeds, too much minutiae detail on ministry function operations, acting unilaterally outside kind of the authority of the body collectively, and then neglecting a key element of care to the church, and that's, maintaining spiritual care at the macro, and down to the micro level, amongst the congregation. So, yep. These are some good ones. Lot of other resources available, for elder boards,
developing healthy elder boards. We even have a course on that, available in the Healthy Churches Toolkit, and you can get that, at malpersgroup.com. You can sign up for the toolkit there. And if you wanna participate in the church checkup challenge, go to malphursgroup.com/challenge. Gets you into the toolkit 7 days free, and, you're gonna get the benefit also of 7 days of emails from us with just 5 minute, activities each day to help, measure the current health and well-being of
your church and talk about some good application points as well. So couple of action points for you. You have some reading, Scott. Yeah. For those of you who like books, I would recommend actually to to I mean, you know, not just to promote the thing, but in the toolkit, we have a really good training on healthy board leadership, where we get into a lot of the stuff we've talked about today on the podcast, but, you know, some practical implications and
applications of, how to build that out. But, some other resources that you don't need a subscription for, but you can just hop on Amazon and grab from from our our ministry here. The book Being Leaders, by by Aubrey Alpherds is is, focused more specifically on you as the individual, like, the you being being a leader and developing yourself as a leader. The other book that's really
applicable here would be Leading Leaders. This is a book specifically on boards, empowering church boards for ministry excellence is the subtitle, and it's excellent. The half of the book, A.J., half of it. I think I think the main content ends on page, like a 120 or something like that, somewhere around there, and then there's another 100 plus pages of, appendices. And those appendices, by the way, are in the
toolkit. So, if you wanna get them in the book form, you can get them in the book form. But if you get it in the toolkit, you can actually access those appendices. Yeah. Download them that way. Yeah. Yeah. Worksheets, evaluations. Yeah. PDFs, spreadsheets, Word docs, various forms. So Yep. Yep. There you go. This was episode 275 of the Church Revitalization Podcast. So today's show notes are over at malphursgroup.com/275. We are glad It's a really good article, if I do say so myself.
You can scroll down and see who authored that one. If you can't guess, definitely go check that out. We're glad you're with us today. We'll see you again next week.