Will a THIRD Party Ever Beat Democrats & Republicans?

was more progressive than Democratic. Interesting decision there, And she's got a book that's going to be coming out about her experience at the White House. But launching her book, launching the book, news was this idea that she is unregistering as a Democrat. Well, guess who I've just interviewed and what this episode is going to feature. It's the CEO of the Forward Party. You may remember the Forward Party from the days of Andrew Yang, who was a

presidential candidate in twenty twenty one. Of many he actually caught a little bit of fire the Yng Gang at one time. He had a friend of mine reminded me he may have had the best political paraphernalia in a big shot glass and it was like the ultimate long shot. Andrew Yang for President, which was terrific, but he his experience running as a Democrat working with the Democrats caused him to think that there's got to be a better way,

so he started the Forward Party. It has since sort of combined forces with what former New Jersey Governor Christy Whitman, one time a Republican, now I think an independent now member of this Forward Party. Kerrie Healy, who was Romney's lieutenant governor when he was governor of Massachusetts, is also active in this and so there is a growing coalition of sort of what you would call refugee political refugees

from the two parties. Now, I think we're going to have this conversation with Lindsay and you'll see what they're trying to be. They Are they an outpost for the frustrated man major party adherents or are they going to try to be something more. I'm not going to give that away, but there's a lot of people frustrated by the direction of both parties, and there's always been this question why do we have only two? Obviously, battled access

is one reason the two parties have created duopoly. If any other business work this way, there'd be the government would force some sort of change here. But there's no doubt that the political party structures in this country need

to be disrupted or we're going to continue to have these unhappy elections where we continue to vote out whatever parties in power. And if you look at basically, that's the twenty first century, and to me, it is a sign of wholesale dissatisfaction with political leadership. And so the only thing we can do if we don't like our political leadership is vote the other party in. And if

you look, I mean it is amazing. We've only had two elections this century where the status quote prevailed completely. It was in two thousand and four and twenty twelve the Bush reelect and the Obama reelect, and both Congress and the Senate did not change hands in either of

those cycles sations the only time that's happened. Every two years we have tossed some party out of power of either the White House, control of the House, or control of the Senate every single election two six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, likely twenty six. Right, we'll see what's coming. So it is to me a primal screen from the American public that they want to stop picking going to the clothing store and only having the choice

of extra small or extra large. I think they would like some some sort of choice of political of parties somewhere in between those two. But before we get to that, I've got a there's been in some ways this goes to the distrust of the two political parties. Well, first,

let me touch quickly on the Elon Musk Donald Trump feud. What are we to make of this? Right? What I'll say is be careful lumping all of the opposition to the big beautiful Bill into one camp. Right, Elon Musk's opposition is different than Josh Holly's opposition, is different than

Lisa Murkowski's opposition, is different than Akim Jeffrey's opposition. There is and so while there is a growing collection of people of all politicians of various stripes, if you will, and political leaders of various stripes, most of them have a different reason for what they're upset about. I will just say this, if the Republican Party, or if the Trump White House is frustrated by this process, they only

have themselves to blame. They have chosen not to govern for the entire country they have chosen to try to govern via one party rule. Governing via one party rule never works. You do not get what you want. Obama got forced into one party rule. But the reason Obamacare

stuck is at least he spent a year trying to get bipartisan support. He went and sat there and let invited Republicans to Blairhouse to give their perspective on healthcare. It was a bipartisan effort, even though the ultimate result in order to pass it was a partisan was a partisan vote. But at least the process was bipartisan. They were trying hard, and it was essentially a Republican idea.

The mandates and just remember Obamacare is just a derivative of the original Heritage Foundation idea from the mid nineties that Bob Dole was a fan of. That met Romney built the Massachusetts health Care Plan. So the point is it was an effort to so the idea was bipartisan, even if the result getting it done was. But ever since then, and in some ways perhaps it's the wrong lesson that both parties took from that experience from Obama is like, well, just do it with one party. It's

the only way. In that way, you're only negotiating with yourself. But this is not how you govern, and this is not how you get anything done. And then you end up creating these Frankenstein bills, right Biden had a Frankenstein bill. Trump put together a Frankenstein tax bill the first time, you know, and they had to create this expiration date in order to prevent the deficit from look from the debt projections from just blowing people, blowing the markets out

of the water. And now they're stuck with another version of a Frankenstein bill that if they would actually try to get bipartisan buy in, they might have a more durable bill. It might not be have everything that they wish that they had, but they wouldn't have the political nightmare that they're dealing with right now. And of course it doesn't matter what gets past. It is not going to say half of it is going to get overturned by the next administration, just like this administration is trying

to overturn half of what Biden got done. There'll be some things they won't be able to get rid of, just like there'll be some things the next administration won't we get rid of Trump, but it will be a much easier to wipe away his legacy, just like it's pretty easy to way boy the Biden legacy simply because of this decision by everybody. And they blame it. You know, it's the other party's fault that we have to do this one party. You got to get caught trying. And

one thing Barack Obama did is got caught trying. And you know, even though he didn't get any Republican support for Obamacare, he went through the motions. You don't even see Biden didn't go through the motions. Trump certainly is going out of his way not to go through the motions. In fact, the fact that they are purging people based on whether they gave money to Democrats, what they did

to this NAS employee, which of ken I think? And this gets me to Elon Musk. So what do we have? What do we make of this? Right, there was plenty of us that said, we know this relationship is going to end badly. We just don't know when it's going to end badly. And you know, there was always going to be a test of wills. Right, one is the most powerful person in the world and one is the

richest person in the world. One is term limited. The rich guy is not, and so I had always assumed it's and it was it felt as if and if you want to just look at it through the terms, and Trump is a power guy first and foremost, right, That's why he always, you know, sits a certain way. He always wants to be in a power position. He believes in just sort of doing things every once in a while to make sure people know where they who they,

where they sit, as far as is Orbit's concerned. So it's not a shock to me that he wanted to send little shot at Elon that says, hey, just remember you know you still need me. So he dumps the NASA guy. Well, in some ways, I think Musk took

that as oh, okay, well then I can go public criticizing you if that's the shot at them. And so here we are, do I think it will escalate more. I kind of have my doubts. One thing about the pattern of Donald Trump is anybody who's wealthier than he is, he doesn't quite go after with the same vigor as he will say me and other people in the press, for instance, Right, I mean, look at how he softened on Zuckerberg and softened on Bezos anybody with money he

will eventually soften on. Part of it is that he just usually because he wants a piece of the piece of their action, and if they come in with some sort of transactional aspect to it, then he's there to do business. So I think he will. He will be careful here too much. So I have to tell you there's one thing I want to single out, and I actually i'm hoping to. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to publicly say that I want to book Ari

Fleischer and have a discussion with something he tweeted. Ari was reacting to what Elon Musk was doing, and he tweeted this. He said, Elon Musk is on his way to becoming Scott Scott McClellan. Scott McLellan was a press secretary during the Bush forty three administration who did a tell all book and suddenly everybody hated him in the Republican Party because he did a tell all anyway, so Ari Fleischer said, that's he's becoming Scott McClellan. That's not good,

smart or principal thing to be. These will always hate him, even if they may now quote him before he destroys the good will he still has with ours. I hope he'll think twice he's done great things. I hope he doesn't burn all his bridges. So basically, what what Fleischer is implying, it's like, hey, if you have an independent thought, be careful expressing it because you're going to need one party or the other and those guys are always going

to reject you. Don't you want don't you want our support? And this I just hate that this is the mindset.

And ri might be right. I'm not going to sit here and say he's wrong that. You know, if Elon thinks this is going to help him get back into the good graces of a democratic leadership administration, should that be what comes next? Maybe he's right and these will never you know, forgive him for his relationship with Trump or what he did, you know, his sort of what he did at AID, which is just a ridiculous way to go about this with DOJE. But this shouldn't be

the mindset, right. This assumes that basically the goal of governing is only one party, right, and if you're in charge your part, you do everything with your party, and you better be a team player. God forbid you. You you somehow disagree, don't ever say you're disagree. This is kind of what's wrong, right. This is why both parties have had this outsider explosion at the elites and the establishment of these two parties because of this type of behavior.

So I you know, like I said, I hope to have of a more robust conversation with Ari about this because I think he will. He's willing to have thoughtful conversations like this about you know, this is this is no way to do This is no way to governor country. We cannot keep having this mindset. We are just going

to keep going down the road that we've been going down for the last ten years. One other topic I want to get to before we get to my conversation with Lindsay Draft and the future of third party politics, independent politics in this country. Andrew Cuomo, we are three June twenty fourth, We're going to have the New York City Democratic primary, and in probably the winner of the primary probably is the next mayor. I say probably Eric

Adams and company is running on an independent line. Things have happened, but you have a primary that looks like it's going to be fairly competitive with Cuomo one and a progressive candidate coming close but probably coming up short. But I have to say, and you've heard me with some a couple of these interviews I've had with New York City Members of Congress Dan Goldman, who is not

supporting Cuomo, Richie Torres, who is supporting Cuomo. I didn't you know, I don't know if there's an enthusiastic amount of support for Cuomo, but there is a lot of people who are looking at the options and going, well, what choice do we have? Cuomo's might be the most competent, even if it's not clear whether he deserves this access or not. And that's that's where I want to get at something. So Cuoma did this interview at the Times. He hasn't done many interviews, but he did this interview

at the Times. And there were two things that stuck out to me on this interview. One had to do with him admitting that he hadn't lived in New York City since he was thirty two. He's now sixty seven, so it's been thirty five years since he had a domicile in New York City until the last six months. You know, yes, you know, it's not as if Cuomo

isn't of New York City. You know, he worked on his dad's campaign for mayor that was unsuccessful in seventy seven, certainly, and he said he lived there till he was thirty two, until he ended up in the Clinton administration. But I that's a you know, that that could leave a mark. If if the the candidates that have lived in New York City longer than six months are likely to make an issue of that, that could that could matter. That

could matter. Although I just don't think anybody's going to think Cuomo's not a New Yorker, right given how how sort of you know, he's just a part of the

of the of the fabric of New York on that front. But it was something else he said that I think deserves a little more. He said he regrets resigning, and it gets me to something. You know what, He's right, he shouldn't have resigned. But I have a different reason why he shouldn't have resigned because we did not get closure on whether what he was accused of doing is

something he did. He said he chose to resign to avoid an impeachment process, that he chose to resign to avoid the distractions to governing that would have created the Attorney general. Leticia James came out with a scathing report and you know, just to take you back into that moment, right, you know, the allegations emerge. You know, in in mid March, he was still you know, a majority of New Yorker

said no, they didn't want him to resign. Then on August, that was March of twenty twenty one, so it was sitting out there. Then you had various leaks of different women coming out in different media reports, but his numbers, for the most part, you know, there were you know, his personal fable ratings went down. It was very similar to what Bill Clinton happened to Bill Clinton in the nineties. But there was a there was a chunk of New

Yorkers that are like, no, he should stay governor. Then Letitia James releases her report on August third, and the next day Maris comes out with a poll and it was fifty nine percent of New Yorkers thought Quoma should resigned.

Fifty two percent of Democrats thought the same thing. By a few days later, as more people absorbed the information, a Quinnipiac poll had the number up to seventy percent of New Yorkers who wanted him to resign, and basically, you know, within a week he were to resigned and he was out. Here's what we didn't get. And this is where I think. I think these these forced resignations of democratically small d democratic elected officials without a full

accounting of what they did when you resign in disgrace, I think we need to have and this is something that would probably take constitutional amendments in some states, but I think that there should be an extra penalty if you resign in disgrace before the end of your term. You shouldn't be allowed to immediately come back and run for another office. Right if you resign in order to avoid an ethics investigation in the House or the Senate.

Right if that's what happens. Literally, if the Ethics Committee has opened a probe on a member of Congress and that member of Congress decides to resign, the probe is dropped. Right, So then all you have are the allegations which do stick to that, but there's no sort of due process for the individual. Now you could argue they would have

had due process, that they'd chosen to go through the process. Well, that brings me to Andrew Cuomo. So these allegations come out, there is no you know, in some ways, there's no We have not had them litigated under oath. Had there been an impeachment proceeding in the New York legislature, there'd have been a trial and we would have at least been able to let the public decide whether or not he should he should, you know, with all the evidence

out there. But this was you know, so in some ways you know I this, you know this, And sometimes the media plays a role in this, right, which is to sort of create the drum beat to just force these individuals out, when that is the worst thing for the democracy. We need to air the dirty laundry. In some ways, the impeachment proceedings of Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, while horrendous perhaps to watch and certainly created a lot of acrimony and dysfunction in the country, was also a loot.

Was also an education of the process for the country, and so it gave them an idea, Okay, what is serious and what isn't you know? In fact, I think going through the impeachment process cured voters of the idea that, you know, how much should character impact whether someone should stay in office or not. And of course we have selective outrage when it comes to character. If we're mad at somebody about something else, then we look for a

character excuse in order to get rid of him. I would argue that Andrew Cuomo, you know he was at first it looked like he was handling COVID Well. I think now history shows that he didn't do the best job that was possible there and certainly seemed to worry more about his self image during the COVID thing than actually getting stuff done. But we didn't. We didn't have So I think he's right. He shouldn't have resigned. And I think this of everybody I went through, I'm going

to go through some. We've of all the people since nineteen eighty that have statewide governors that have resigned while

in office. You've had John Rowland of Connecticut who just got a pardon from Donald Trump, Jim McGreevy in New Jersey who basically resign due to an extra mental affair, Robert Bentley in Alabama in twenty seventeen, he resigned due to an extra medical affair. John Kitzeber of Oregon resigned early because he didn't want more information about an extra marital affair. Eric Brighten's essentially very similar things in named crew Cuomo, but all of them essentially ducked an opportunity

to defend themselves. And to me, if you resign in disgrace, we really there should be an extra penal. We should be forcing due process for the voter. Right, it is that the voter deserves a full accounting and a full story. And it's also not fair to that potentially disgraced politician that the innuendo and accusations, because when you resign, then everybody believes it. Right, If Andrew Cuomo believes he was railroaded, then why did he resign? Right the minute he resigned,

he ended up essentially con confirming the entire report. Now he may believe he wasn't doing that by resigning, but as far as a majority of the New York public, that's the message he was sending. Well, she got me, when maybe society would have been better served to like, let's let's get the detail of the allegations out there and if it's too again, if it's too embarrassing for you, then you want to resign early. You have put the

state in a bind. You sometimes resignation forces a special election sometimes resignation, so there should be a higher penalty, and that penalty should be a six year ban, an eight year ban, a ten year ban from running for any office in that state. Again because the Andrew Cuomo campaign. Here we are he resigns in twenty one. Now he's running for marin twenty five, and we don't know, we don't really have the full accounting. We know why I resigned,

we know what he was accused of. He denies some of it, but we've not had a formal, a formal process to sort of litigate this and to hear his side of the story under oath rather than his side of the story via via political campaigning. You know, I mean it is you look at the Senate resignations. The most egregious is clearly the Al Frankin one where Al Franklin was basically forced to resign by his own party all because Chuck Schumer wanted to win the Alabama Senate race,

right if the Alabama Senate race doesn't happen. And you know it was also loud calls by Senator Kirsten Jillibrand was the first she was getting ready to run for president. You know, so there was a lot of political factors outside of Franken's control. But what we never got and Franken went ahead and resigned, but we never got a full accounting of the ethics committee. That's not fair to Franken,

nor is that fair to the voters of Minnesota. But again, all that was done because in the moment, Democrats were trying to embarrass Roy Moore in Alabama and that mess, and they wanted to look cleaner than the Republicans, and you know, essentially they sacrificed Franken in order to get a Senate seat for Doug Jones. You might say that was politically smart, What was that really good for the process? Was that really good for democracy? And does that really

increase trust in politicians anyway? I just it was it was an interesting thought experiment. I agree with Cuomo, but not for the reasons perhaps he thought he shouldn't have resigned. He really I think it would have been better for everybody, better for Cuomo, better for the voters, better for the for the institutions, had you actually let the impeachment process play out. But sometimes we're in such a hurry to sort of move on to the next story that that

becomes this sort of feeding frenzy. The press plays a role, pundits player role, people just looking to move up in power, lieutenant governors wanting to become governor. There becomes all of this rather than realizing, you know what's in the this was a duly small de democratic elected official. So if you're gonna we probably should take take those take those elections a bit more seriously, take the voters a bit more seriously, and not just sort of force somebody out.

So you have all these appointed people in power who weren't put there by the voters. So anyway, I'm curious, I'd love your reaction to this. Send me a note on this, Ashta look at thechucktodcast dot com. If about

my idea that resigning in disgrace, resigning to avoid an ethics committee, and resigning to avoid an impeachment process with your legislature should automatically trigger a five or ten year ban from running for office after that, you shouldn't be able to do that essentially to avoid scrutiny and then get to come back into public life without having to sort of go through go through that process you broke,

You potentially broke a trust with the voters. You ought to have to be forced to see it through and explain to the voters why or why not that that trust was voting. All right. So, now that I've put you in the mood of really loving the two parties these days, enjoy my conversation with a third alternative. Lindsay Draft of the Poet Party and joining me now is the head of the Forward Party. I believe the title

is CEO, not party chair. And we're going to discuss exactly. Forward Party was started by Andrew Yang. It's merged with an organization that Christy Whitman, the former Republican governor of New Jersey's been involved with. Essentially, it's a whole group of people concerned about that the two major parties aren't answering the call here and for those of you, I hear it all the time. Is there another way? Well, I think Lindsay's here to make the case that Forward

could be that other way. The question is what is it? Is it a party? Is it a movement? Is it a reform project? These are the questions I hope she answers with us today. Lindsay, nice to see you.

They say, what is that? What do you say?

conviction on particular issues. And so what I really want to encourage people to do is to kind of shake off this idea that all policy solutions are either decidedly progress or decidedly conservative, and in fact, a party and individuals within a party can explore all sorts of new innovative solutions to policy issues outside of that idea, that kind of you know, binary access there. So what does it look like if we triangulate the whole thing and really focus on an independent party?

but there are real barriers to entry, right that this is a there is a strong duopoly in here, and if the Republican Party and their Democratic Party were businesses that were regulated by the federal government, I have a feeling they would be charged with operating a duopoly. But that obviously those that are in charge are members of this duopoly.

there's a vacuum here, and there is a lot of cynicism that anybody can fill it because we've seen we've seen attempts like this multiple times. What gives you faith, what gives you hope that this time is different? Well, first of all, I think that we are an unprecedented moment in American history right now that will allow for this sort of innovation to come to light. Fifty one percent of Americans last summer, Pew tracked at the high

water mark were registered as independents or unaffiliated voters. You have people leaving the two party system in droves. Sixty five percent of Americans say they do want a new political party. And you post the question earlier, Chuck, about is this a movement? Is this a party?

entry time and time again. In fact, in New York, one of our the legacy organization that merged with US, the Serve America Movement. They achieved ballot access in both

New York State and in Connecticut, and they ran candidates for governor in both states. When the Democratic Legislature convened the following year in New York, they went, oh, gosh, those guys got really close. We better raise the barrier for entry. And they raised it such that actually it knocked off not only the Serve America Movement party, but it knocked off the Green Party and the Libertarians off the ballot as well.

You know, anytime anyone's knocked on your door, they've probably gotten your address and your voter registration from their political party. Anytime you get an email and it asks you to click here and you use Act blue or Win red, those are payment processors that are are built by the

Republican and the Democratic parties. Anytime someone texts you to get out the vote and says, you know, go, you know, go vote for Glenn Youngkin, I know you're in Virginia, chut, that text processor is paid for by a Republican Party effort. So we need to build the infrastructure to support independently minded candidates across the country. And that's what we're doing.

Party successes.

lock out competition and lockout independent voters. So a combination of introducing a new political party that runs, new candidates for office that are incentivized to be responsive to, a broader swap of the electorate, structural changes that open up our primary system. Those things together will allow for a

representative and responsive government that is not gridlocked the way we see government now. And you know, we talk a lot about Washington, d C. You and I are here in d C. But I'm talking about it in state houses across the country as well, completely gridlocked, you know,

driven by partisan politics. We are building this party from the ground up, Chuck, which means I get to go around the country and meet incredible candidates or municipal seats for you know, mayors, city councils, school boards, and they just want to serve their communities. So success for us would be to create a movement and infrastructure that allows people to serve their communities authentically at the federal level,

at the state wide level, in communities. And that might mean it might mean a durable and lasting third party. It might mean a more responsive and functional two party system, but I think that we have to we have to introduce competition through a third vehicle in order to realize one or those other two things. So this they're not going to do. They're not going to do it by themselves.

was emerging and I hope I got it right with what Christy Whitman was doing. So walk me through sort of what it was that Yang started and what it is today. What's the additive?

non partisan structural democracy reforms. So I talked about our primary system. So what does it look like to open up our primary system? What does it look like to introduce innovations like brant choice voting, non partisan primaries, things that we've seen adopted in places like Alaska, Maine, Washington State, California. The introduction of those reforms means that you're challenging the status quo. You're challenging the power structures of current elected officials.

So Andrew's you know theory of change is that well, if you if you launch a movement of people that elect people into positions of power with a different incentive structure, they can pass these uh you know, these these reforms. So there was a group called the Serve America Movement. I referenced their work in New York and Connecticut, and they also had a similar theory of change, which was disrupting the duopoly, uh, you know, through through a new

political party. Their executive director was a guy named David Jolly, who was a Republican member of Congress. David's been in the news lately because he actually has become a Democrat. He's become a Democrat. He's going to run for governor

in Florida as a Democrat. And then there was a group called the Renew America Movement UH where Governor Whitman was and and that group their acronym was RAM, you know, it was their theory of a change was how do we It was more of a communication strategy, So how do we hold up a mirror to bad actors? And then potentially what does it look like to galvanize folks who were in the Republican Party who were not excited

about the Mega movement. So the fact that our origin story is one of merger and alignment, I think is really really important as we go out to do the work because.

as a real es central part of our ethos.

people who knew them. They had name recognition and brand I d. They did a lot of externally facing work. In the last two and a half years, almost three years since the merger, we've expanded our board with intentionality. Some of the former board members from the legacy organizations

have rolled off. New board members have come on, and as we have leaned into a collective brand and a collective culture, we asked Carry Healy to take over his executive chair because she's not from one of the three legacy organizations.

party right now before yeah, after you take us. So, yeah, you take over and we'll be the first.

on the local level, state rep, State Senate, school board, city council. That he wasn't really focused on Congress at all or Senate. It was really much lower because he believed, hey, you know, if we can just if we have sort of more local candidates and it actually has a better chance to the message can go more locally viral and be more authentic. Is this time are you trying to go to congressional and statewide races this time?

president again. So there was a lot of what we aren't and then we had to get very specific about what we are, and we are a movement that is building from the ground up, and the best way to do party building is to coalesce around state and local candidates.

So this concept of a reverse coattail strategy is that it's been proven, is that if you have disaffected voters, and in the twenty twenty four election, you know, we talked a lot about double doubters, people who weren't excited about Trump or Harris at the top of the ticket. If you had disaffected voters and double doubters who were not inclined to show up on election day, but someone was running for office in their own community, they were much more likely to go out and actually vote for

that member of their community. And once there and once in the polling place, the books that were motivated by community leadership were more likely to vote for the pro democracy candidates towards the top of the ticket and for federal seats and for president. So that was a way for us to both help turn out pro democracy voters during the twenty twenty four election and also do authentic party building from the ground up. At the beginning of the segment check you said, you know, my title now

is CEO. If I do my job right, I will no longer be a CEO, and instead there will be a party chairman that is elected by our members of our party members from around the country. And so as we look to twenty twenty eight. So you asked about ten year horizons and ten year goals twenty six and twenty eight. In twenty twenty eight, we are going to go to the Federal Election Commission and apply for federal

party status. In order to do that, they give you a menu of requirements that you you have to fulfill in order to get federal party status. Running candidates for

federal office on a ballot line is one of the requirements. Having an ongoing.

Americans share. And so we are we're very bullish about looking at seats in twenty six and also mapping up to twenty eight to run those those federal candidates. And the wonderful thing is it is it's a it's a it's a bottom up, top down, you know strategy that

we're looking towards in twenty twenty six. You know, if we have an opportunity to run a candidate against an extremist who is you know, someone who's an obstructionist in Congress, and we can run a fordist against that person, the brand id and the inspiration for people down ballot, we

hope we'll get more people out and working. And similarly, all the party building and the voter turnout that we can do around down ballot candidates at the municipal level will then serve those candidates that are running up at the top of the ticket for federals.

eighty percent blue eighty percent red? That in some ways, is that is that the better place for a forward candidate to go.

So if we can go after some of those extremists and coalition with partners where we have ballot access and we can use a forward ballot line to run to run by partisan, pragmatic focused candidate, we're thrilled to But these ones, you know, these these uncompetitive seats, or what I think is really exciting and what people aren't really talking about, which is, you know, eighty seven percent of Congress is decidedly you know, those districts are rud or blue. There's no competition.

mean that from a voter's perspective. Lots of voters would he left with like sixty four percent approval rating that there's no infrastructure to actually build a bench of candidates that could level up to a Republican gubernatorial candidate in Massachusetts. So those are places where we're really really excited and where we're seeing a lot of traction. Utah is a great example of a place where we're seeing a ton of traction because there's no competition from the Democratic Party there.

the two parties have done an incredible job pulling up the ladder behind them and making sure that we're not able to access the ballots and introduce competition. But it is. It's navigable. You just have to understand the nuances of each state. You have to study the laws of each state. They're constantly changing. Filing deadlines are changing, signature requirements are changing, so and you have to do that fifty times over.

Certain states have really low signature thresholds, like Louisiana is only five hundred, but then they've got a really high voter threshold for a position of statewide. You need the following here.

or working families, but they're having to deal with the same obstacles you're dealing with. And it almost feels like our democratic infrastructure needs an ACLU that you know, like, you know, look God by a c l You always say this. Everybody, you know, everybody is thankful with the a c l U is there for them, right, They're usually not crazy about what they do until they're suddenly needing protection, right and somebody fighting for their speech rights.

But because let's talk about the open primaries, I don't see how if my tax dollars are being used to pay for an election, why then the state can bar prevent my ability to vote in that primary? Right because I'm not a member of a private club. You know, you've told me this is a private club. And at the same time you're using public funds. This feels like how it feels like partisan primaries that are funded by the state are all unconstitutional And I don't understand how

that that there, that is that is even allowed. Now where are you guys? I know you're part of you know, one of your goals is to open up primaries. Obviously, what is the legal route here to sort of is there a legal way to get rid of partisan primaries. I know there's attempts to change the laws in these states, but is it possible that that there's a case that partisan primaries funded by tax dollars are unconstitutional?

in New Jersey. So there's a there's been an ongoing legal case there about the fact that it was not constitutional to ban fusion voting.

have these multiple where literally you could appear. There was an Independence Party in New York. I don't know what the status that they are, because to me, they should be a forward party chapter at this point. If they still exist because I think they were part of the old Parole Reform Party network, but where you could appear on the ballot in multiple on multiple lines, so literally your name would be on there twice. And what was it. I want to say, It's like New Jersey, Connecticut, New York.

It's mostly New England states if memory serves.

what it looked like. And they had a really really asked, rational deal that they struck with him, which was abolished party primaries, launch a commission to pursue the abolishment of party primaries UH in New York. And by doing that effectively, she kind of knew she was going to put herself out of business, but she was motivated, you know, by by a vision of good governance in order to do that.

And and he did put together a commission and it failed, unfortunately, but they're they're doing it again in New York City right now. There's a commission for open primaries and it's

been received really favorably, which is exciting.

of South Carolina merged Independence Party South Carolina. We merged with the United Utah Party in Utah. We both already had ballot access, but acknowledged that we could be so much stronger by combining efforts. And these are also parties, you know, the Independence Party of South Carolina, the United You Taught Party are ideologically inclusive parties that are values uh and principles based rather than single party or single policy issue parties like the Green Party or the Libertarians.

So there's you know, there's a there's a lot of diplomacy involved and a lot of trust involved and really exploring what are you all about, what are you wanting to accomplish? What sort of candidates will you run on this ballot line? And I don't take that lightly. I think the fact that that South Carolina, you know, they were willing to hand that that line over to us after they had stewarded it for so many years, was a real exercise and trust.

major parties essentially, you know, refugees from one of the major parties have been foundational to the success or even brief success right, you know, obviously Whigs, right, the Wigs you Millard Fillmore, I think right, if I'm I think was part of.

started his thing, and obviously his wealth helped there. Nothing would jump start you more than getting you know, you got a lot of formers that are members of the Forward Party right now, but some currents And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you guys wouldn't mind somebody who said, yeah, I caucus with the Republicans, but I'm a member of the Forward Party and I'll be running as a Republican. I

caukd this with the Democrats, but I'm a member. You know, I believe in the Forward Party and I also am a member of the Democratic Party. Is that a future you envision or do you envision it? I No, I'm a member of the Forward Party, but I caucus with this party for this cycle because they've they've agreed to these to work on. I mean, what do you envision here? I'm thinking, like, let's say, in a perfect world, Lisa Murkowski says, Hey, I'd love to be a member, but

I'm also going to be running. Letting people know that I'll be running and working with the Republicans. What what what do you envision here in trying to recruit currents.

are important in Michigan Anders and as the mayor of Detroit, he found that the two most resident issues that voters were concerned about were education and job creation. And so a lot of these big national themes that most Democratic candid are talking about, whether it's women's reproductive rights or gun violence prevention. He's just job creation and education, job creation, education, and it's what his community wanted to hear. But chuck back to the you know, kind of the affiliation way

and what does it look like it is? So it's both practical and that we don't have ballid access in a lot of places. But I also think it speaks to our commitment to good governance over party affiliation. And so the idea that we would have full CRuMs that were forward, full CRuMs made up of Republicans, Democrats, independents, and Fordists is really unique. And we talked earlier about why why now in America and the idea that you

would be party agnostic. You truly don't care if it is a comma R or a comedy or a Comma I, because you're committed to caucusing together and furthering legislation that you believe in that will help address the real issues of our country. That's the way we're approaching it right now. So if I look at a particular seat and there is a really compelling Republican and it's an R plus eight district and I don't have ballot access there. The threshold for an independent to get on the ballot is

way too high. But a really principal, thoughtful Republican who wants to affiliate with the Forward Party and say I'm a Ford aligned Republican, we are all about supporting that person, you know, and they sign a candidate pledge committing to upholding our principles and it's very actions oriented.

congressional bill at that given time. How do you how do you prevent failure? How do you prevent a problem solver's caucus failure? Because it's been a failure. It's a noble idea, but it is not worked.

I mean, she has built that level of trust with her constituent base where she can, you know, she can vote on things that she knows are right for Alaskans and vote against party leadership on certain things. She caucuses across the aisle. You know, Jared Golden is doing that in the House. Marie Gloosen camp Perez is doing that in the House. But what is a common thread between those three members of Congress is that they are all representing states with non partisan structural democracy reforms.

got to talk to correct right. Meanwhile, you got a guy like John Cornyn, who if he had the system of Alaska or Utah, he'd be untouchable.

so I get his indecision to walk away. But his constituency is not inside the current makeup of the Texas Republican Party is constituency are more independent, you know, and sort of this, and yet he's got a structure in Texas. It's impossible for him to survive well.

same way that we're talking about. That the problem. The members the problem solver's caucus have not been able to behave that way because at the end of the day, they'll go back and they'll get primary.

the country where Okay, we're going to we're recruiting them, we're running them, you know. I mean, I was at a dinner with Lisa and she said, it can't just be me. It can't just be me and Susan. And that's why Ford is here, because we want to run candidates so that they can join these caucuses.

Like what's their butt? And how do you respond? To their butt.

and we got nothing for it. Twenty billion dollars. So on fire the pro democracy movement as a whole, I would I would say, and I don't include voting rights in this, because the voting rights community is incredible and they do great work. But I'm talking about, you know, actually running candidates outside the two party system, focused on on you know, independent candidates and independent movement changing our voting structures. What's six hundred and fifty million dollars, right?

I mean, we have to scale this movement and having audiences like yours today is amazing, Chuck, Like, we want people to come to us and help build so that we can then go to the Brian Fitzpatrick's and the Don Davises of the United States Congress and say come, you can jump we've got you.

You know, we see what a free market of political parties looks like. It's in the UK and we see what's happening. The Tories are collapsing and there's a new right wing party and I say this like, okay, that happened. Say you know brand X failed, here's brand why. So Nigel Faros has brand why And it is gaining traction, did really well. He could not have succeeded here because of our structure and and and that continues to be the toughest thing. You need some wins. Where do you think,

what's what's what's realistic in winning? You know, is it getting a Mike Duggan, you know that would be a big one. Is it getting mister Morgan and Morgan which in some ways you know, he's he's his own entity, he's his own character, and he might be his own party And I don't know, you know that's always that you know, you.

player for a while. You know where else am I missing any any other places? Or is Doug really probably the biggest potential?

the idea of infrastructure. So you know who's our digital vendor. You know, he was a Democrat, so obviously, like all of that democratic resources, you want.

Red voter would have or donor would have. So but it is it's a lot of questions about infrastructure and support, you know, and and that's the other thing, you know, when we go back and talk about kind of jumping the plank, you know, and what does it look like to get some of these converts, to show them that there is a there are resources there for them. Don't worry. If the party that you're leaving pulls your voter file, We've got you. If the party that you're leaving, your

campaign manager quits, I've got talent for you. The party that you're leaving, you know, and tells your digital vendor they can no longer work for you. And these are all real things, right like, these are all real things that happen to people. I had coffee with Kearson, Cinema's digital director a couple of months ago, and talking to me about the logistics of her leaving the Democratic Party

and serving as an independent. What did it mean for her to continue to communicate, you know, in campaign and the already had Reuben Diego running against her, and she, you know, she didn't necessarily know. I think that she wasn't going to run for reelection when she switched to an independent, but she had no infrastructure to support her

in that race. So we that's a lot of the conversations we're having with Mike are related to resourcing his campaign and what is it looked like to have access to those technologies and that talent, And those are conversations we're excited to have with with other governors across the country. We did have a big win this spring. Dan Thatcher was a Republican member of the Senate in Utah and

Senator Thatcher came out and switched parties. So he stood on the steps of the Utah Capital in Salt Lake and said he is joining the Forward Party.

the business community. Paul's been a leader there. What's interesting about Arizona is the business community has been really involved in pro democracy efforts, So trying to open up the primary system in a way, I have to say, I don't think I can think of another state where the business community has so invested in democracy initiatives, Because, you know, a state that refuses to certify the results of elections if not good for business. And I think you know

and business leaders in Arizona get that. So we're going to spend a lot of time in Arizona.

have an ideology?

the tisk party. Right exactly. So I buy that culturally there was a bit of a seesaw here, but for the most part on issues, you can't you know, well, not long ago that plenty of you know, Barack Obama would endorse a pro life Democrat because that pro life Democrat was you know, parts two or name him to to be as vice president. Right. Well yeah, well multiple

choice with Joe Biden over some days. But it is and now it's unfathomable, right, Like, I don't know if you can be an advocate of just public schools and the Republican Party anymore type of thing, right, or you can't be for charter schools if you're on the Democratic Party. I mean there is so I guess what you're trying to say is, hey, we're going to be you know, we're a solution solutions oriented and we're not going to

fight over the details at the beginning. We're kind of trying to like gather people in who at least will agree to agree to compromise. Is that absolutely?

our elected officials. And it's and there's all sorts of really cool things happening to around the country that help facilitate that sort of compromise, like citizens assemblies, right Like there's all these really cool innovations. It's all it's all the rage in Paris right now.

trade that we now have. It isn't like corporations versus people.

It's one corporation hires lobbyists, apple versus another corporation Meta, and they're fighting over government regulation that could benefit Apple or hurt Meta or vice versa. And you're like, how does this have anything to do with the voter? And then you look at our debt issue, it's rhetorically usually only folks on the right that care about it, but they never do anything about it. If anything, they add to the debt as fast as the left ads to

the debt. And then the right never cares about campaign finance issues. And I want to say, guys, you know, the more money in pol takes, the more money that gets taken out of government. Right, Like, it's clear these two things are interconnected. Look at I guess, how do you become this nexus on these issues?

for their for their client base. These are just tens and tens of millions of dollars just in lobbying, just in one.

I'm a Republican surrogate, I'm a Democrat surrogate. I'm going to use my weekly talking points to be little script is. Tell me what the script is. It's not they're not actually engaging in discussion. And a new party that encourages people to engage in that discussion to address real issues like a federal debt is. I think people are hungry for it, and so we're excited for people to come to forward and engage in those difficult conversations.

stifling competition now. Both parties used to be geographically diverse and ideologically diverse, and they didn't stifle as much competition. But I look at what the DNC is doing now. They're trying to do preferred agreements with for their voter file with Target Smart, and part of that agreement will be you know, people challenging incumbents in a primary may not have access to that. It's it's it is not it is not going to be good for the free

market of ideas. And we desperately I'm I you know, I tell you I one of the one of my sort of half baked ideas to borrow a phrase from Bill Simmons. One of my half baked ideas is that the two parties ought to ought to create political subsidiaries that essentially function if we were in a prime minister

situt parliamentary system. They would function as sort of the coalitions. Right, you have your left coalition and your right coalition, but there ought to be the Working Families Party is the Progressive Party, and you know, maybe the New Democrat, New Democratic, you know, democratic Liberals, what are you going to call them? As your centrist party, and then you'd have a Maga party under the under the right wing umbrella, and you

might have a Chamber of Commerce party. But they're subsidiaries and they're almost funded by them, and you sort of instead of having interest groups create create sort of political party subsidiaries and then candidates can choose. Well, I want to tell you what kind of democrat I am, or I'm going to tell you what kind of Republican I am by filing with this with this wing of the

party versus this wing of the party. Anyway, just a thought, as the two parties says, I do think disruption's coming, whether it's in form of the Forward Party or independence. By the way, keep an eye on Mike Duggan uh in Michigan, the Detroit mayor who's running as an independent. He could you know somebody is going to be the spring cord for this, you know, uh kind of what you know? When Rossboro created the Reform Party, it did hand us a governor eventually. And Jesse Ventura, do you

get a dug In? Do you get an Angus King and Lisa Murkowski to realize that they'd be better off being members of the Forward Party than they would be caucusing with either of the d's or the rs. These are the things that I think is is potentially possible h in this uh, in this current environment, and perhaps is necessary if you want to see both parties sort of sober up, uh and get their acts together. All Right, it's time for a little last check. May I answer a few questions here?

politics and a deep understanding of the political arena. That got me thinking, is there anything that would make you consider working at the White House as a communications director in another advisory role, and if so, what qualities would you look for in a president or candidate that would inspire you to take that kind of job. Well, I you know, I would probably only unlikely, Okay, And I'll

tell you one reason. I feel like my career in the in media has been both prominent enough that if I chose to work to sort of become a politician, and you go work in the White House, you're becoming a politician, that I'd be doing a disservice to my journalism colleagues. I don't begrudge people that have done that, gone through the revolving door, because everybody's got to live their own life. Everybody's got mouths to feed, everybody's got

tuitions to pay, loans to repay mortgages, et cetera. But you know, perception is reality these days, and so I'd be very hesitant. So the only, the only even remote possibility would be the person would have to be a member of neither party an independent. I'd probably be more likely to want to help somebody who's a little bit new to the process. So maybe it's a former military leader,

maybe it's a former business executive. If you're asking me the type of you know, because I think I could help, right, it would not be a thing where I would want to gain where where Where do I think I could help the most? And I think I could help somebody who's new to Washington navigate the place. And but I but it would have to be somebody who wasn't interested in building a political movement, but it was more of a coming in. They're the problem solver, They're a fix it.

You know. I do think we're due for a mechanic president that's basically a democracy mechanic. You know, like, look, we've got to we've got to rebuild this thing so that we can and have a more honest government. I mean, you know, the most depressing aspect of the pardons for sales story of Trump is how little outrage there is.

And you know, my wife said, she goes her and I asked, you know, I sort of lewis lamenting this, and she says, well, it's because the reason there's no outrage, everybody assumes this is always how it works, and that talk about and I think she's right, and so you know, we're in this we're in a period where people just believe the worst in politicians and believe the worst in institutions. And the reason you know, there's a lot of people who support Trump because they think, well, he just says

what's already been done. He behaves the way others behave. You just know it, right that the Mike Johnson, well, you know, Biden did it undercover. Trump does it out in the open. My goodness, right, we sort of need to We need to repair the image and the relationship of the democracy with the public and of these institutions. So you're asking the type of the type of candidate. It would have to be an unconventional, non major party person, and it would have to be somebody who's again who

wants to be a pastor for patriotism. I think that's what we could use a little bit right now and a mechanic for the infrastructure of the democracy. All right, next question, doctor b I've been listening to your show for many, many years. I appreciate that I appreciate the level of scholarship and networking you bring to journalism. One thing I know you appreciate is democracy. The patient scope of the erosion of our civil liberties is unnerving. I don't know about you, but I want my life back.

I think a lot of Americans want our lives back, our freedoms, and I want to check in your opinion, what are demonstrated political conditions or pathways for restoring and advancing lasting civil rights? Who would you say you say are the most interesting change makers or organizations right now? Can you speak to the history of political leadership during the successes of the civil rights movement up to now?

Why has targeting our freedom's been so easy? I would love to hear your a soapbox on civil freedoms, change makers organizing in the pathways to balance power with lasting peace for humanity. Wow, thanks for all that you do. You are I fear that I cannot deliver what you're looking for. Uh And in some ways you're I think you're pining for the leader I just described of who I would you be looking for in something like this? Like I said, I think we need a pastor for

patriotism and people need to understand. You know, there's America is an idea. We're not an ethnicity. And I think that this is a fundamental disagreement that's going on right now in America. There's plenty of people, particularly I think Trump tapped into this, and the Maga movement has tapped into this, is that no, no, no, no, we are an ethnic democracy. We are a Judeo Christian you know. And

it's like, no, that wasn't the intent. We may have developed that way in reality, but you know, I always say the single most important phrase of our founding fathers is more perfect union, the implication it was never going to be perfect, but that we were always going to try to be better, right, And America was an idea. And so I do think we need the type of leader that can teach us again about the story of America, that actually appreciates the story of America. I mean, one

of my big frustrations with Donald Trump. Here's this American success story. His family immigrated here, grandfather goes to Alaska, starts may or may not have run a brothel or at least some sort of hotel out there in Alaska in the frontier, made enough money to support a family got you know, you know, there's there's and and you know,

he wouldn't have had this success anywhere else. And yet he doesn't really appreciate the story of America and the arc, you know, and it's and he's the first president in my lifetime, you know that that hasn't sort of understood that this is a long story, that we're writing new chapters and that they're but there's a through line here.

And you know, this is why I think I'm always hopeful that there's a military leader that's going to step into the you know, not because I think the military is the perfect place for this, but I do think the military is the least political side. I'm concerned how

Pete hag Seth is recruiting. I think he's trying to create a partisan environment in the military, which is a huge mistake because I think one of our strengths is the fact that the military is the last place where deep red and deep blue are in a in a bunker together and they're just Americans first. Man, they're Marines first, they're infantry men first, right, they're naval guys first. You

get my point. So I I just think that there's an appreciation that somebody with military experience, particularly career military, who is seen that that. You know, it's the closest part of our society that tries to be more colorblind than in class blind than any other part. It exists there. I'm not going to sit here and say it doesn't. I don't want to imply that, but it is better. It's a better institution than really in many of the

other institutions. And so that's why I think if we're going to find that pastor for patriotism that can sort of renew our interest in the story of America, I have a feeling it's going to come from somebody who's had the experience of being in a bunker with people from all different classes, and all different geographic locations and all different ethnicities. All Right, last question comes from Josh.

He says, check, I listened to to west more in South Carolina, and it seems to me the den most likely to be able to build a coalition similar to the one that powered Bill Clinton, Obama, Hillary and Biden to a DEM nod. What do you think of that possibility? Yeah, Josh. When I'm asked to name the three most likely Democratic nominees, first of all, I usually demurror and say I have a feeling I'd still rather be a candidate I haven't heard of yet than anybody that we see in the mix.

And I make a note that Pete Bootajij circa twenty seventeen, right, was this guy who just unsuccessfully ran for DNC chair, but a lot of people enjoyed interviewing him, and people were wondering, Hey, that guy's got a future, he's got something to say, And within three years he was a

major candidate for president. And frankly, if there were a normal campaign rather than COVID, there's a chance that he would have been the nominee in twenty and literally, you know, so, I don't know who the mayor of South Bend is right now. I haven't looked it up. But you get my point, right, which is I think it's possible we don't know yet the next star of the party. That

sort of catches fire. But if you're asking me to name three people who are out there that are the most likely nominees right now, the three names I put out there are Wes Moore, Pete Bootagig, and Gretchen Whimer. I think Whitmer's the most s tessful two term governor that will be running. I think that Wes Moore. Look, I think you're right. I think both Wesmore and Pete

h having military backgrounds are vital. I mean, I think if the Democrats need that, that that is a I'm not saying it's a must in their next nominee, but I think it's a I think it's an important potential asset for the next nominee. And look, Wes Moore's connections.

He ran the Robin Hood Foundation, He's got finan very wealthy connections. Although he's not from wealth, he certainly knows a lot of wealthy people. I think that he and Budhaji will have the most professional operations that are running for president. And that means something. You know, it doesn't

guarantee anything, but it puts you. You know. It's sort of like it's like getting the top seed in the NCAA basketball tournament or baseball tournament doesn't mean you're going to make it to the final four or to Omaha, but you're going to have an easier path to get to the final four or Omaha. So I do think Wes Moore, in theory, will have all the right people wanting to work for him will have the resources. But

I'll be honest with you, I'm very skeptical. You know, he's got to figure out how to not feel like a derivative campaign, right, And there's like a part of me with with you know, you know, I'm with you. He says a lot. I mean when he talks about national service and he's got he's off created and basically a service program in Maryland that I think he wants

to emulate. So there's a lot of things that I think that he's I think he's I think he understands the tone he needs to have if he does become president. But you know, there's also a part of me. It's like I remember a candidate that seemed this perfect at this point in time, a guy named John Edwards. And you know, let David Axelrod has this great saying that

running for president is an MRI for the soul. Bodhajid has already had a little bit of the Rotor Router test, so he's going to have a vetting and that might be a slight advantage, although I think the Biden baggage is going to be quite heavy for him. You know, we got to see how well Wes Moore goes through the process. But here's what I will tell you, I can't the last I'm trying to think of the last

Democratic president in my lifetime that got elected. You know, Joe Biden is the only one in my lifetime that got elected after failing in a presidential candidate the first time Bill Clinton won a first time he ran, Barack Obama won the first time he ran, Jimmy Carter won the first time he ran. Democrats have a tendency not to not to go for somebody that ran before, which I think is the problem for Bootajid, and that's a potential advantage for more. So. Look, I think More right

now is an early Uh. He would be in the preseason top five of your polling, no doubt about it. But as we all know, sometimes those season polls are super accurate and sometimes they end up being super wrong. All Right, with that, I hope you enjoy your weekend. It's a big weekend in the Todd household. My son's graduating high school. We're very excited. I got a lot of family in town.

But with that, enjoy, enjoy your weekend, and I'll see you on this channel the next time I up. Oh to you Monday morning. M