¶ George Conway joins the Chuck ToddCast
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¶ The Republican party is unrecognizable today
subscription today. That's thirty dollars off your first box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain dot com slash podcast, or simply use the promo code podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace, so use that code. So joining me now. As everybody knows, I enjoyed putting on people that are running for office. This is no just ordinary candidate. Somebody I've known a long time, George Conway.
I first got to know him as a conservative attorney, sort of a political attorney is probably the best way to do it, involved in sort of legal debates from a conservative side. His prominence rose with he and his former wife Kelly and Conway, And of course if you've followed if you've not lived in a coma or stuck your head in the sand, you know very well about George's journey away from the conservative movement and the Republican Party.
¶ Why George became a Republican in the 80's
And the journey has moved all the way into registering as a Democrat and running for as Democratic of a congressional seat as I could think of that includes both the Upper West and Upper East side of Manhattan. George A you okay with that introduction? What would you add?
What would I would add is I think the Republican Party moved away from planet Earth and moved away from me and all that is right and decent and just and things like you know, I mean, we have a Republican bar today that believes in tariffing the shit out of every country in the world for no apparent reason, and and you know, depriving people of their civil liberties by taking them off from the into dungeons. And it's not,
it's not. It's not the Republican Party I joined in nineteen eighty and I, you know, it's just a completely I don't think it's conservative at all.
I think right, and I you know, I take you as somebody because I it's funny. I think we all go on these journeys. You you sort of figure out your own politics when you watch the two parties sort of carve things up differently. Yes, and I realized I was more libertarian than I thought I was. I had no idea right until you until you start to see and it's on. You know. I always said the Republican Party was made up of sort of you know, various coalitions.
There was your you had your Evangelicals, your Christian Conservatives, you had your sort of Chamber of Commerce types. But then they were also the libertarian conservatives sort of you know, get government off my back. Am I wrong to assume that that's probably what threw you to the party, that
¶ George was a "legal" conservative based on the Constitution
drew you to the party.
Yeah, I look, I mean I was more I was more like an I mean what drove why the reason why I became a Republican in nineteen eighty, I mean I became a Republican after the election of Reagan.
I was that was a year's not to get religious here, but a lot of people sort of sort of embraced being a Republican nineteen eight. My father was one of those people. He was from this Reagan Democrat that never voted Democrat again, you know I.
In high school. If he would ask me what I was in nineteen seventy seven, when I was in ninth grade, which is in the Lake of Watergate, I consider myself a Scoop Jackson Democrat in nineteen eighty, which was my first my freshman year in college that fall when the election happened, and I was kind of done with Jimmy Carter and I actually, if I had been old enough to vote, I was only seventeen, I would have voted
for John Anderson. And then when Reagan won, it was like, well, I don't really disagree much with what he said, as
¶ Nixon did some not so conservative things because they were popular
he wants a strong national defense, and I have been you know, I my education on economics was listening to Teddy Kennedy talk about wage and price controls and reading about wage and price controls how historically they didn't work, and then watching the documentary Free to Choose, remember that on PBS with Milton and Rose Friedman, and it was like, I don't think the government needs to run everything, and
that was that was the source of my conservatism. And as a legal you know, legal conservatism, you know, that was an era where legal the law was kind of in turmoil constitutional as turmoil, because the question was how far could judges take vague or not even just principles in the Constitution that they just create on their own, because I think they want to make the world a better place. And I know it's like, no, no, no, I I read the document. What does the document say? And
what do you know? If we don't like the document, there's a whole thing you do to change it. And so I became a legal conservative as well. I was never evangelical or religious conservative. It was more I was kind of a you know, a legal conservative in the sense that I read texts and I try to be
objective about what they say. I was a economic conservative of the sense that I didn't believe in, you know, Teddy Kennedy's price price controls, and rumored the only person who did price controls in our lifetime was rich Out,
¶ Young people think conservatism & Trumpism are the same thing
a side cool figure.
And there's always a Richard Nixon. Well, now there'll be the Donald Trump.
Nixon was one of the most liberal presidents of our lifetime.
Not even close exactly. I mean, you.
Know, you can't explain to the kids what's.
Funny about it is that you know who would have agreed with that was Nixon himself, because Nixon would have argued he was simply responding to what was clearly popular. It was popular to get the government more involved in things. Medicare was popular, the civil rights you know, we were through.
Thebay he started. I mean, he did all that shit, and he had you know, and and and you know you ever, I'm sure, of course you've watched.
And by the way, he would have signed off on some form of the version of Obamacare today was essentially
¶ The Democratic party is trying to fit a broad coalition under one tent
what Nixon would have agreed to if Kennedy would have signed off on it.
Well, yeah, and remember remember when he got back from China. There's there's this opening scene to all the President's met which begins his State of the Union address in nineteen seventy two or none of it was a jointed address to Congress after coming back from China, and it's democratic Congress, like overwhelmingly a democratic Congress, like democratic has ever been
in our lifetimes, and he's getting a standing ovation. Of course, the deep down hated him because he was stealing their thunder and co opting them and all sorts of stuff, but they got all, you know, he was he was actually a very liberal president. He was corrupt as hell
¶ We can't have serious policy debates until the current crisis is over
and and did all sorts of illegal ship and covered it up. But you know, he was he was a little president. But anyway, you know, it's the point is that the party. You know, when I try to explain to people, younger people today, like they say conservative Republican, they think conservative Republicanism was always trump Ism. I know
it wasn't the case. They were. I mean some conservatives they were, you know, Reagan somehow managed to bring the evangelical conservatives with the more libertarian conservatives and the military hawks all together, and it was That's what political parties are. The coalitions today. You know, the Republican Party isn't a coalition, It's a cult.
What's interesting about that is, I think the question that I have as sort of I now call myself a political anthropologist more than anything else these days.
But this is the perfect conversation for you.
That's because you know, it's sit there, and what iruggle with is can the Democratic Party handle this many coalitions under its tent? I said, you know, you know, if you think about the twenty twenty coalition for Biden, you had everybody from AOC to John Kasek and Liz Cheney and when you try to stretch a tent, eventually it might split in the middle. Yeah, and that is a concern. At what point can can the Democratic Party successfully take all of you refugees right and still have a coherent,
¶ Hating corrupt politicians of all stripes, not just one side
a coherent, proactive view of governance. I think it's very difficult.
Oh look, I mean we don't get to that question until the current crisis.
Is over, no, which I find This is what I thought. Your candidacy is so interesting to me because of how honest you are about why you're running.
Right, and we don't get to have those policy Frankly, I'm not I don't think them much different on policy than your Abigail span Burger or your Nikey Sheryl or you're who's the guy in Kentucky. I don't think, you know, And I you know, Okay, I'm not a Mom Dannie Democrat, but I you know, I get you know, we're an AOC Democrat. But I get what they're trying to do. And I you know, I kind of I admire that they have this, you know, object of helping people, and
I have no problem with that. Is a question of
¶ Can't retire because the last few years have been appalling
what the means are and how much it costs. We don't get to have those debates now because we explain.
Yeah, right, explain your rationale. It's very unique. I think it's. I like that how straightforward you are about your running. And it's two terms. And here's my mission, right, tell it to the tell it to my.
There it is okay. I'm sixty two years old, which is why I remember, you know, Nixon going to China. And I Never've always been kind of a political jerkie, right I was. I grew up on Watergate, and I was fascinating.
I think that's really why we hit it off so well, right, right, I talk about.
On Watergate and and I developed two things. A fascination with politics, with our constitute, no free things, our constitutional system. And I also developed this hatred of corrupt politicians of any party, of any strike, and of people abusing their offices, which is why you know, I mean, I'm the guy who helped Paula Jones, and I'm the guy who helped Egene Carroll. And I'm the guy, you know, I'm the guy who hated Nixon, and I'm got who hate Trump, hated Trump, and it's it's it's just sort of my
¶ The courts aren't equipped to deal with someone like Trump
through line makes sense to me. But you you know, it doesn't make sense to somebody necessarily who's just saying, well, he was a conservative republic look at what these conservative publicans. How could you have ever done? And if you're politically sophisticated in your older you get it, and if you're listening to me, you get it. But anyway, my whole point about running now I kind of went off the question here. Okay, at age sixty two. The reason why
I'm doing this I should be retired. I am retired. I'm a retired Laura. I worked a few blocks away from here, I about twenty blocks away from here, and I you know, I did well for myself. I should be skiing in Park City right now. Okay, I should be doing something or going on a world cruise. I should be doing all this. I can't because this is just this is just the last few years have been
so absolutely appalling to me. And you know, at this point, I don't think a lot I don't think enough people get, even Democrats, what we have to do here. There's a lot of I went to something last night at the City Bar, which is this great panel with my friend Judge Looting, and basically the lawyers are talking about, oh, how can what can the courts do? And Louting is saying the Supreme Court sucks and and it's it's disaster,
and other people saying, what about nationwide injunctions? All this technical stuff about the law and how district judges are doing their best and the Supreme Court's kind of screwing them up, and then the administration is attacking the judges. It's like the Framers did not He're gonna put my federalist society or religious original on which you know, I shouldn't say that.
The campaign people like, yeah, don't ever say don't say the work, the effort worst you could say the other f work.
You can't say this way, okay, the originalist view of
¶ Could a third impeachment trial weaken the impeachment process?
how you deal with a fucker like Trump, that's the f work.
I think that's the that's the word you're allowed to use. Yes, okay.
Impeachment and removal the joke they didn't intend. The courts cannot play. The courts don't have barneys, they don't have police officers. At the end of the day to enforce their orders. It requires the Justice Department to bring temper seedings or the Justice Department to put people in jail. They won't do that, and they can disobey orders anytime they like. And what they do, and they're kind of
doing it in kind of a half assed way. What they do is they basically, oh, they kind of comply slowly with an with one order, like you know when you're kind of you know, your kid is grudgingly doing something, and they kind of take a long time.
So they always you're absolutely right, they complied just enough to say they're complying with something.
Right, and then and then the courts can't hold them in the contempt. And then they do the same thing to the next person like they've done it like thousands of times.
It's a total slow walk.
It's a strategy, right, it's a total strategy. And then
¶ Mitch McConnell choked during Trump's 2nd impeachment trial
meanwhile they're attacking the courts. The courts cannot they cannot fix this problem.
Okay, the problem, you're right, the framers.
Fixed by Congress. That's what they intended. That's why they put the impeachment clauses in there.
They understood, you couldn't that a president was not going to get a fair trap in our system. You couldn't create a system to make it fair right in either in any direction, which is why it had to be done the separate way. My only concern about a third
¶ If McConnell voted to convict, others would have followed
impeachment is, I don't I don't want to presume why you're you're focused on this, but I which is I assume you want to say, look, we've got to send that this is this is how you do it, this is how the system is supposed to work, and look, we'll do it again if we have to do it. Do you worry that it's simply just weakens the weakens it so much it just stops being a useful deterrent?
What what weakens impeachment?
Impeachment?
You know, it's never been weaker. That's the problem. Yeah, Okay, the problem is we've kept.
Well, the problem is Mitch McConnell and that vote. I mean, I go back. I mean everything was done exactly how the founders intended, and Mitch.
Mccon hold a real trial. But let's set that aside.
Okay. Well, yeah, it's tough whatever a real tril's supposed to look like with it comes to this in fairness, right.
¶ If we can't impeach Trump for what he's done... Then why have impeachment?
You have to actually that's what they did with Andrew Johnson.
Well, and it's actually what was done with Clinton.
Right.
We had a few witnesses. Yeah, they didn't actually one. Yeah, yeah on video, but so we I take your point on that. But ultimately we were there and Mitch McConnell choked, and you know.
He deserves to burn. I mean, I'm not gonna use that language. He deserves, he deserves, he deserves.
I always say this. I hope he regrets the rest of reprobation for that. I hope he loses ship every night of his life.
He you know, he he he was, He was scared, and he had he had the moment, he could have he could have could he have gotten the requisite number of what's I think?
So?
Yeah, well, I know he gets Rob Portman, I know he gets you know, probably till us. You know, there were a handful that we're waiting for the signal, and you know they would have come. I mean, if Cassidy and Burr were there, imagine who else would have come if McConnell had.
Voted absolutely And what he thought was, which is the thing you cannot a mistake you cannot make with malignantly narcissistic leaders like a Trump or a Putin or whatever.
¶ Do we want a constitutional government or not?
You can't assume they're just going to go away. They don't.
He thought, shame would push push them away.
You know, he's not gonna go away. They always like, they always come back for more, and they always seek retribution. They never stop. They can't stop. They're not capable of stopping. Which is why this guy's going to get worse and worse and worse. Now in terms of whether we impeach the power, if the power isn't is the most is as weak as it's ever been, precisely because people say, oh,
we tried it twice, we can't do it. And if that's true, and we're not going to try this president in the Senate, if we're not going to try to impeach this president and have a trial in the Senate of this guy for doing every fucking illegal thing in the book he could think of, and grifting off the presidency and indicting UH political enemies on bullshit and and and disobeying, you know, hutting government programs without acts of Congress and usurpacing usurping Congress's power, and try and find
to rename everything, holding holding out this is the Gateway project, right right that that's the Gateway project. They're going to build an Amtrak tunnel there. And he wants he's holding that hostage even though the money has been appropriated, and even though the government has legal contracts obligating it to fund this program, he's holding it costage because he wants
Penn station named after him in Dallas Airportner. This is this guy, This is insane, and he's he's basically violates his oath of office every minute of every hour of every day, and except when he's tweeting in the middle of the night. And and but you know, but is if we can't impeach and remove this guy, then there is no impeachment clause in the Constitution. There is no
¶ Impeaching Trump is as constitutional imperative for congress
impeachment provision in the country. There is no Article one anymore, because Congress is basically seating its authority to a guy who's basically saying I can make the law. So it's really an all or nothing thing here. Do we want a constitutional government? Do we want the rule of law? Or are we just going to say, oh, we tried impeachment twice and I don't We don't we want to. We want to keep it in our back pocket and keep it for the next time.
What's that know what? And that's this? Look, I sit
¶ Trump is deteriorating psychologically and controls military & nukes
here and I will put my political anthropologist slash observer hat on and say, boy, I don't know if this is good politics, right, I don't know if this is good for twenty twenty eight I don't know if people are what do you do about the exhausted middle? But here's the thing I can't push back on you on you're not wrong about any of this, and and and ultimately, no, you're not wrong about any of this. So it is. It is sort of and the decision I'm thinking out
loud here. But the number of times that collectively political figures and political parties make these compromises because of what we'll play in the next election versus what is right versus wrong right is probably why most Americans don't trust politicians,
¶ Trump is creating his own domestic army with ICE
because most politicians always take the easy path, the easier path, the non conflicting path, because they think that's actually what voters want, and no, they want me.
Look, it's this isn't a political calculus, Okay, I get it. In twenty nineteen, there was a lot of, you know, between Nadler and Pelosi and all the you know, all the dynamics of the Democratic Caucus about whether to impeach the guy, how much to impeach him on and how quick the trial should be. You know, look, I get politics place, these are political branches, but at the end of the day, with what's going on here and now,
¶ The Republic, the constitution and rule of law are all on the line
it's no longer a question of political calculus. It's a moral and legal and constitutional obligation of Congress to do this.
Well, mate, let's make the other I think it's a I would be a violation of the oath of office for a member of Congress not to push for impeachment when it is possible.
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¶ In 250 years, we've never seen a government this corrupt
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¶ The internet & media only have so much bandwidth, can't handle Trump
something you should really think about it, especially if you've got a growing family. What are the consequences of not doing that?
The consequences of not doing this is basically, look psychologically, he's deteriorating, he's getting worse, he's getting more uncontrollable, he's dangerous, he has you know, he's a he's a nut job, and he's a criminal, and he's a he's a malicious and and human being will care, has no conscience, no morals, no remorse, no empathy. And he controls five thousand nuclear weapons in the entire armed forces of the United States of America. And he's destroying our alliances and he's assuring
our relationships with foreign countries. He's basically holding projects or infrastructure and healthcare spending hostage because of his whim. He wants things named after him, and he wants to control people's He's creating his own private basically his own army, domestic domestic army with fifty billion dollars that he wants to spend on ice to control the cities. And you know this is not separate from the elections in twenty twenty six. You know, he was saying maybe you know
¶ The government is only working to serve one man
what Bonnie was saying, maybe we could He's up on ice if you give us your voter roles. I mean, this is he is trying to establish all powerfulness. He's taking away Article one powers of Congress. He's defining the courts. He's threatening to to to fuck with the elections, and he will do that. This is not this isn't even close to normal. This is this is the republic. The rule of law, the constitution are all on the line,
and they are on the line now. And and if you know, the only way you we stopped this is a combination of people being out in the streets and voting for members of Congress who will have the colhonis to stand up to the guy and say that's enough. We're not going to fund this. We are going to impeach you and remove you. We're going to impeach and removed. No, we're going to peach and remove Bondie We're going to peach a reroove of Robert Kennedy for for for for
his crazy shit. Okay, and we have to do all
¶ If we don't impeach Trump, we're throwing out the constitution
that or else. You know, we're not gonna last three more years of this. We we aren't. I just don't. I just don't think. I don't think there's enough alarm and enough I think people are just thinking because we we we have a country where, yes, a lot of people are feeling the squeeze of of higher prices and of unaffordable housing and healthcare. But we have a lot of people who just it's like, Okay, well, I'm living
my life. It's nice. It's I get to I watch my favorite shows on Netflix, and I get to watch the watch the sports on TV, and I live in a nice, warm house, and I just can't deal with all that stuff that's going on there. Well, that's how
¶ Can you convince Hakeem Jeffries to impeach Trump a 3rd team?
democracies die. That's how, how, how how the rule of law dies. That's how self government dies. And it is dying before our very eyes unless we exercise the power that Congress and the duty that the Framers impose the Congress of the United States to impeach and remove corrupt executive officials. And we have never seen never in two hundred and fifty years, we have never seen a government in the United States as corrupt as this one. And if we can't get rid of this this one, we're screwed.
It's done. I still go my still just quit.
Harting was close. Harting was close. It was closer than Watergate.
I don't you know, I mean.
Hard handed over like just parts of the government. I mean, I feel like people.
Do prosecute did he prosecute political enemies that.
¶ Trump & his actions will only get worse in the coming months
I don't think. I'm just saying on the financial corruption, it was, It's not worse than Trump. Trump is the worst since Parting.
Yeah, I'm talking about I'm not so talking about financial corruption. I'm talking about moral corruption. I'm talking about corruption of the political is the corruption of office corruption And.
And I think this is actually probably is what made it so hard to stop Trump is that where do you start, right, It's such a target rich environment when it comes to him that I you know, I've always thought that that it's it's not a strategy, but it happens to help him, that he so sprays the entire sort of area with corruption that you're like, well, am I focused on the pay for play on pardons or the personal enrichment on crypto or what he's doing over here when it comes to I, you know, it is
in some ways. And I don't know whether this is an indictment of our media ecosystem, but I feel like that's also part of the challenge of trying to concentrate the American mind on how this corruption is sort of upending the entire system.
Yeah, I mean, look, I mean the Internet only has so much bandwidth, the media is only so much bandwidth, and our brains have only so much bandwidth. And yes, by basically giving everyone the green light to do the worst things in the world, Okay, by by setting off, uh.
The we could do an entire five hours and just how RFK Junior is destroying an entire generation of kids.
We can do we could talk about, you know, I mean, if you wanted to, if we wanted to make a list of impeachable offenses and start kind of tallying up, we could we could we could you know, do this for several hours, and then we'd have to have we'd
¶ American politics has deteriorated due to the weakness of congress
have to break and and and and we'll figure out all the things we've missed. As I find throw darts, pick something I don't care. But the whole thing in totality is there is no question. We have a government that does not give a ship about what the law is, and thinks that it's making up the law, and thinks that its purpose is to serve one man, even though that man has taken a oath of office to to to execute faithfully the laws and constitution of the United States,
¶ Everything has gone to the courts since congress won't legislate
and he doesn't do that. He doesn't give a fuck about that. He couldn't tell you what the laws and the constitution of the United State. He still thinks, as he said in his first term, that Article two allows me to do whatever I want. Okay, that's that's the case for impeachment right there. Okay, you you just you could you just find fifty five examples of what he's done.
You could, just you could, you know, it's like, there's no It's like in law, we have this thing called summary judgment, where basically the facts are not disputed.
The facts, these are disputed facts.
If there are not disputed facts anymore, and and and and that's if we and again, if we cannot do this now here and now throw out we have to
throw out the impeachment clauses. We'll be throwing out the beach fault, which is effectively throwing out the one last check that that that Congress has to guard its own legislative power on an Article woman, which means we're throwing out Article one, which means we're throwing out the entire structure of the Constitution and throwing out the rule of law and democracy all at once if we do not do this. So i'ms for impeachment and I don't. I
think it's irrefutable, and you know I don't. Again, it's like, let me rant from.
Just go ahead on more.
Yeah, It's like, it's not a political game, it's not
¶ Constitutional amendment to nullify pardons introduced in house
political calculus anymore. It is a matter of survival. It's a moral it's the moral obligation that people commit to when they swear an oath to the Constitution as members of Congress.
Do you think your toughest, look do you? If you win, you obviously are going to believe voters gave you this mandate. The person you're gonna have to convince of this first is akeem Jefferies. Have you had this conversation with him?
No, I haven't. I haven't spoken with with hopefully Speaker Jeffries.
Right, do you have, what's your mind is the best strategy to get him to accede to this because he's gonna have a lot of donors that tell him one thing. He's gonna have a lot of I mean, here, here's my calculus.
Here, I get why politically, somebody would be not taking this position. Now, okay, because it's a it's a big tent. There's a lot going on in the tent, a lot in flux. But the two things will change. One is I firmly believe that there will be a Democratic House
of Representatives come January third, twenty twenty seven. Two is in the next eleven months, Trump is going to do stuffed it will make We haven't even foreseen that's worse than what he did during his first thirteen months because it just it just we know what the trend line is.
As I like to quote Haley Barber, good gets better and bad gets worse.
Bad gets worse, and he only gets worse. He's a he's a malignant narcissist, the narcisstic sociopath at any strength.
That's not going to change.
Only they never change, and you know, we get worse, particularly when they get older and more.
You know, oh, the filter is definitely whatever filter existed in there.
Are no checks because he surrounded himself, you know, the first term, he surrounded himself with some fairly smart people here and there.
Okay, well he did and Mike Pennce sort of, uh did a lot more to protect us than we fully appreciated it.
Absolutely, and and and and and General Kelly and you know,
¶ Passing amendments is hard, statutory fixes will be easier to pass
these those were.
You know, they were they were patriots, they were they were you know, they.
They you know, it's you can't work for Donald Trump without compromising yourself somehow. But at the same time, if they weren't there, we would have had what we have today.
I always say this about people that work for Trump, bar even bar right, no, no, no, no, but this is every and this has been true. I've studied, I've gone back, and I've gone deep onto trump on. You know, he never keeps an inner circle more than about five or six years. It always rotates because he always throws these people away. He always throws everybody away.
Why people don't think that they're going to be the next on the ball.
They won't be next. I always want to tell Marco Rubio Heylo, Marco, when when the when the public goes south on one of these international adventures. Maybe it's Iron, maybe it's Venezuela, maybe it's Cuba. You're getting the blame for this. You're the magabus is.
Going to go in Hungarian citizen has been worked for horbon.
I don't know. I want to go to something bigger because you're you're at your You're I'm obsessed with the fact that the reason our politics deteriorated over the last forty years, arguably since the fall of the Berlin Wall, basically since the Cold War, has because is because of the weakness of Congress. That Congress, right, they continue to sort of not do their job. And what it did was I find it interesting, Why did you join the
conservative legal movement? You really joined because Congress didn't know
¶ Congress gets to set the rules, and has defaulted on responsibility
what the hell it was doing. I joined it, and so well, no, let me let me just finish here in my framing because and so what it did was it made the courts because the article, the guys in charge of Article one failed to sort of respond to the public. People felt they had no choice but go
to the courts. Go to the courts for reproductive rights, go to the courts to open up to desegregate schools, the fact that Congress wouldn't do its job to desegregate schools, to protect people's voting rights, to protect women's reproductive rights, people had to go to the courts. So everything became about the courts and the only.
Way Congress courts. And then and then the question who put all of this ship in the court's hands?
Okay, Congress failing to be definitive on its exactly right.
But we have elected represented No, this is the point
¶ The old "norms" need to be codified into law
that So.
The point is is that what you're identifying and circling and it gets it a bigger question that I'm obsessed with. How do we strength? There's are two things I think we need to do right. I'm you know, I gave a lot of credit to Don Bacon for co sponsoring the pardon constitutional amendment that's been introduced. I don't know do you know about this? So Oluski Johnny o'luski is a Democratic Member of Congress from Maryland. Fairly new member.
He introduced a bill basically a pardon Nullification Act kind of, and he wants to introduce it as a constitutional medment that if twenty members of the House five members of the Senate object to a presidential pardon, and then then they can be brought to the floor. Two thirds of Congress basically can overturn the same way you'd overturn a veto, but it's a constitutional amendment. And Don Bacon became the first. You know, look, I have a lot of other ideas and how for that.
That's fine. I would frankly make it less than two thirds.
A I agree, And I think I could make a case of just repealing the entire presidential pardon for an individual. I might come up with a party board.
Chris the power of pardon in Congress to designate a pardon board like they had.
A pardon board exactly. You could two most senior members of the cort Attorney General, President, vice president, Speaker pro tem, etc.
Thank you.
And it made me think that maybe, just like during the turn of the twentieth century, that we might be in an era where people are focused on Okay, we
¶ Our backs are against the wall, normal politics don't apply
need to remodel our democracy a little bit. Right. One hundred years ago, we realized we had to tax these robber barons, so we did the income tax. We had to make sure we had a democracy for everybody, so we got rid of we let women, we gave women the right to vote, and then we and then we decided we we better directly elect senators because state politicians were so corrupt. It was all being so, what do we need to do in our constitution today to sort
of deep to sort of trump proof going forward? Like, because that's a conversation I think we also need to have, is how do we ump proof our constitution?
I mean, that's something I talked about when I first announced, which was I want to be in Congress for two reasons. One is accountability, which includes investigating and impeaching and removing and I'm really talking more about that these days because of how bad things have gotten. But the second is, and hopefully this will be a second of my two terms in Congress, as you mentioned, would be a reconstruction,
a kind of modern American reconstruction. And I think all of these things, you know, I mean, you know how hard it is to amend the Constitution, So a lot of things will have to be done from a statutory standpoint.
I mean, I would love to see this pardon constitutional amendment pass, but it's going to be hard because again it's you know, it's a process that is got to be two thirds there isn't three quarters of the states, but you know, I'm all for that, But we also have to focus on statutory things that can be done for examp, but with pardons, you know, Congress could pass
¶ Fighting fire with fire feeds into "whataboutism"
a law requiring disclosure of and and this requiring and creating a body that investigates the circumstances that uh that let lead to a partner and so that we have a full disclosure of how a pardon came about. If it's not through the regular process, then has been adhere to for years in the Justice Department from the Parton office, and it's some you know, somebody contacts correctly.
As we all learned, what Trump has gotten all of us to realize is don't assume norms can come back. You're gonna have to legislate norms correct.
And legislating norms. The the unwritten rules about interrupting the Justice Department, they have to be codified, and they have to and there have to be penalties for people who violate them. Maybe not the president because the president, you.
Know, the separation of powers.
It's a problem of powers, and this fucking community decision went too far. But everybody else, you know, if you if you're participants. Everybody else can be regulated. Congress is the wind. I mean, Congress has the power to do this. Okay, the duty ultimately, in fact, the executive is to enforce
an execution laws enacted by Congress. Congress gets to set the rules, which goes back to your point about how Congress has been basically defaulting on its obligation to set the rules for a very very long time on many many things. So again there has to be like, once
¶ Want to go back to an America where the president isn't a "piece of shit"
we get rid of the current circumstance, M, we have to really focus on reconstructing and reconstructing our legal and political system at the federal level by codifying these norms
that involve the Justice Department and everything else. And so that's hard, but job one has to be we have to get to a pososition where we don't have these people, these corrupt and evil people running the government for their own personal satisfaction and for the satisfaction and grift and profit and ego of one evil, stupid man.
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it now available in Canada too. That's qui nc dot com slash chuck, free shipping, three hundred and sixty five day returns quints dot com slash chuck. One of the pushbacks you're going to get is this idea of like, Okay,
¶ Only four people control congress & that's the problem
if you succeed, don't we just ebed? You know that everything is just going to be, that this is basically a cold civil war that will continue, that that there's going to be no detent. There's not you know. And look, I don't know the answer to this question other than I always say the American voters figure this out over time, and they're going to figure this out. I'm going to trust them. I just don't know how many people have to die before voters figure it out.
Here's the metaphor that just popped into my head. Okay, what was the name of that pocket in Southeast Korea? When when when the Allies got pushed all the way back before? Yeah, yeah, okay, that's where we are, okay,
¶ What do you say to the voter who supports Trump for policy reasons?
and we're all we're almost done here. We're running. Our backs are to the Sea of Japan. Or whatever body of water is there. We don't have much more time, and we have to do you know, we have to age in politics in a way that has not been engaged in because we've never had to engage in it. In order to get back to at least the DM the demolitraized Zome. We can't, you know, we're going to lose the war to save our democracy if we don't fight.
And is it gonna Is this all going to resolve itself in the next two or four years, I don't know. I think there's gonna be a lot of damage to the require decades to repair.
I mean, I'll tell you we're on that.
We're on the precipice now. We can't worry about where we're going to be five or ten years from now if we don't fight back now.
No, and I and and I understand that mindset. Here's where I struggle. And I'll just use the example of the redistricting fight, which is, you know, the Democrats spent fifteen years making the case that no, no, no, no, we've got to take politics out of this. And obviously there's no doubt right that that the Republicans Trump Abbott, Paxton we're trying a little power game of politics. And it
¶ Nobody has done more damage to restriction immigration than Trump
was finally, all right, if you're going to do that, then the Democrats are going to fight back, And I get it. And yet at the same time, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the disenfranchising of voters in Texas that the best way to fight back is to disenfranchise voters in California or disenfranchised ight. You know, you get where I'm coming from on this, And.
It's like, basically, we're doing things that we didn't ever want to do.
Correct And it's like and then of course it just feeds into the what about ism and then it actually the other side will say, well, see they're willing to break the rules too, so there are no rules. Fuck them.
Okay, but this is why you know, you have to you have to win the war to enforce the peace. Okay, Well you just tapped into something.
Not all Democrats believe this is a war, right, is that a.
Problem they need? They're gonna they're gonna have to learn and that's and I think this is I mean, I think you see people who understand, there are a lot
¶ How did the Reagan GOP you joined become Trump acolytes?
of people who do understand in the Democratic Party that this is I don't like the word war because it's it cannotes violence.
No, but I'm worried about that. We've already had two people get killed essentially for political protest.
Correct, absolutely, I mean, uh, but you know, it's not a civil war. It's not that. I hope it doesn't become.
Know what, what if Tim Wallas had called in the National Guard?
No, we are but again this is you're absolutely right, we are.
On the mean, we're a lot closer than people want to realize.
Correct, And that's why we can't get fussy about the political tactics and the land. You know, I would never call them the president president of the United States of
¶ Victimhood is clearly the currency of the right
any party, a fucking piece of shit on a podcast until today he is a fucking piece of shit, okay, because and this is where we are, all right, someday I would you know, I want to go back to in America where I can't make the case that the president is a fucking piece of shit, all right, where I would never think of using that language, even when he did something bad or she whoever. It is, all right, there are moments we have to we are to use language.
We have to use political legal legal devices, including this business nothing illegal about what's what. But they didn't count afford to the courts of Uphelder. The Supreme Court is upheld it.
Now. They went to the voters. I mean, I will give him that. They went to the voters and national to the voters.
They did it, and you know, frankly, it's not really disenfranchising people. Just you know, it's not dis ef you get to vote. You're not being denied the right to vote just because you are. You know your neighbors vote the other way, okay, and.
No you we're not. Look I look at what the Virginia maps.
You want to have a portional representation system, amend the freaking constitution. I wouldn't be terrible. Of course, you have the problem of a crazy multi mum. You know, well, no.
I'm for would have two part I get you to hear something else we have Israel and no, no, no, we got a better There's a simpler way to solve our congressional map, and all it takes is an Act of Congress uncap the House.
The House is too damn small. I know. The last thing people think we need are more politicians. But congressional districts shouldn't be eight hundred thousand people that there's point that that they and I actually believe if you essentially and you could put this as a constitutional amendment, which
¶ The right's grievance complex leads them to only oppose the left
is no congressional district could be more than zero point zero three percent of the population, which right now would put you in about three hundred and fifty four hundred thousand, you'd actually solve the electoral college disparity problem immediately. And then and you probably minimize the power of gerrymandering simply because it's a lot easier to draw a community of
interest more districts. Yeah, that's right, districts, and you can't you know, there's only so many ways you could jerry mander.
When you have more districts, you need AI to do it. But you know, to cherrymandering that many districts and they would be ridiculous of the.
DISI but but anyway, that's it. Look, that's a that's one of my pet issues. I think that if we double the size of Congress, we'd also get we'd lower the bar of entry, barrier to entry in a financial way, and all sorts of things.
That's an interesting thought. And and and and I see your point. The question is can a legislative body function with that many people. That's that's the question.
I don't know the answer to that is a function now, I mean, you know, and and in fact, i'd argue the problem with it is that they don't let the body function that only four people control Congress.
Yeah, I'm not arguing with you on this. I'm just I thought it through.
I just that's the that's the no I look, and that that's the reason why they cap it. Well, we
¶ The case for incrementalism, democracy is a dialogue
don't have enough office space, you know. It's it's sort of like almost like you're like, we can all you know exactly Downtown DC's empty, right.
You can you could, you could, you could have your laptop and in your apartment and be a that means that as your office. But anyway, they probably the SaaS would be smaller so you wouldn't need it.
But let me go, let me go at another issue, another way to tackle this issue of of sort of what do you say to the the Trump voter who's not a fan of Trump's character but keeps voting for him because they just you know, they've got this policy reason here, policy reason there, and and and I want to take I'm going to assume the best that that's the reason that there isn't some hidden thing that they're hiding,
you know whatever. You know, I think there's some people that are there for racist reasons when they're not going to say it, but I'm going to set those people aside. There are plenty of people just looked at it and said, you know what, politics has been terrible. We needed a disruptor like Trump. And I'm no fan of him, but I'm lad it's making everybody squirm. How do you get that voter back in the fold?
I think that voter is going to get back in the fold when the prices or prices of everything go up even more than they already have. When they see
¶ There is a nihilistic animus amongst Trump's inner circle
chaos and disorder on the streets, which they are seeing and they will see more of, I think they're going to realize that they're not really you know, for example, immigration, I mean it's like this isn't you know if you if you're a restrictionist, an immigration restrictionist relatively speaking of
the sort that you know you had. I mean, I'm old enough to remember in the nineties when Bill Clinton created a Commission on Immigration where they were basically it was restrictionist, and the Chamber the Republican leading Chamber of Commerce opposed the restrictions on immigration. I'm old enough to
remember that. But you know, no one has, No one has done more damage in the long term, for example, two restrictionist immigration policies than Donald Trump, because he's associated them with this tyranny, to the point where even Republicans who voted for him because they wanted immigration to be more restrictive and they wanted more immigration enforcement are repulsed by what they're seeing on their TVs and on their phones.
So I think that I think that the people who are actually thoughtful about policy issues, okay, what they are going to come back.
Over and you're going to have left the core of the people who have the malicious motives, of which there are unfortunately many, but not enough to elect the president.
How did the Republican Party you joined in nineteen eighty end up Trump acolytes. Give me some not just a broad brush, but give me sort of like I you know, when it go now looking backwards, right, you were there. You were on the inside.
That wasn't there. I was practicing law here in New York.
No.
But when I say that you were at least invited to the parties, okay, and you might have been able to get inside the velopt rope. I think was it always ends justifies the means.
No, I don't think so. But I do think there was this insolarity that was created in the conservative movement where they made themselves. I mean, they felt persecuted. They
¶ Bush has stayed fairly quiet about Trump, should have spoken sooner
didn't get invited.
The victimhood is the is clearly the currency of the right.
Well that's what that's what led us there. I mean, you know the feeling. I mean, you look at a guy like Sam Alito, Okay, he is the most aggrieved victim ever to ever see.
I mean, by god, I think we'd all trade we'd all love to have the professional career event.
Right, but he you know, but you can just see it in his writing and his personality and his and that when he does make public comments. You know, these people are all deeply, deeply aggrieved and resentful, and they spent years kind of resenting people who had different views from them, who traded them, didn't always treat them with respect. I'll give them that, but it's not about you. It's not about me, it's not about them, it's not about individuals.
It's about the country. And I think these people. I think there's it's a what happened to the Republican Party was this? And again I might change this is I'm just spinning this off here just because it's what's coming to my head. And I you know, I would love to spend I would love to be in a position not running for public office and would this all over, be able to think about it and maybe write a
book about it. But I think it's just a crazy form of narcissism where people put their own resentment and feelings about how they are not part of this liberal elite, and they made that they define themselves that way to the point where they oppose everything that the people they oppose are for. Right, it's this, it's the freedom of speech and democracy and all that.
Well, we saw it with the Second Amendment. Suddenly where they where they alex gun in his hand.
Where does it say in the Second Amendment that liberal protesters get to carry guns? Doesn't say that, I mean, come on, I mean, but they're right.
Well, it's funny to me that your that should be the caution cautionary tale for the left, meaning be careful, don't get the same viru. My biggest concern about Trump coming back for a second term, and the real damage is that it was going to change the psyche of the political opponents of Trump, which is where suddenly where you just well, we got to oppose everything the guy's doing because he can't be seen as doing anything right. And I worry about that.
Yeah, look, I mean I don't. I guess maybe because I'm a little more process oriented in some ways than a lot of other people.
Well, I always say I'm an incrementalist and a b still wanting. I still I don't trust institutions, but I trust that a good institution with better incentives is better
¶ The only way to win converts is to welcome them i.e. Marjorie Taylor-Greene
than any And that's.
The reason why sort of like as I mean, I'm an incrementalist too, which is why I was a conservative, And okay, because I thought that was.
My father's definition of conservatism. Hey, he used to say, I want the Democrats to come up with the ideas and the Republicans to manage them. His theory was I'd rather have the empathy of the left and the you know, managerial of the right. That was sort of his mindset. Yeah, I thought there's something to that.
There's something to that, and that's that's actually the way a healthy political system should function. Some people are pushing for something and other people say, wow, not.
So fastive, slow down, let's slow down, let's think about this, right.
Because democracy is a dialogue. It's a dialogue between the people and their elected leaders. It's a dialogue among the people. It's a dialogue between the elected leaders. And that's how we you know, people are pushing for change and other people saying, well, let's slow this down or maybe where
¶ Mike Pence deserves credit for J6, but should have conceded in November
the change should be different, and you can't. But what we have now is basically a nihilistic effort to destroy everything. And that's what Trump. You know, there's just this nihilistic, narcissistic animus among what is now you know, the the the h what's the name of the ombu given he's an example of that advance and all these people there, there's just a nihilistic disc vo right and and and Miller. They want to destroy everything because they hate it so much.
They developed this sort of irrational hatred of everything that exists because you know, it represents the enemy, which is liberalism. And it's not about that, it's it's it. That's not conservatism, that's that's that's nihilism. And you know, these institutions that took generations to create, whether or not you would have created them in the first place. Right, there's a reason why they're there, Okay, there's a they're a purpose is
¶ Marjorie Taylor-Greene is a case study in evolving away from Trump
that they serve. Yes, maybe they can be reformed, maybe at some point they can be replaced or modified as they should be over time. But to take a sledgehammer to everything that's not conservative, it's insane. And you know, the truth of the matter is today it's like, you know, my kind of the Democrats are the conservatives today, which is why incrementalists today in a lot of ways, and and and and they they they're the people who are saying, we can't do that. Hold on, what about what about
the people that it's going to affect? What about the what about the you know? And and that's basically what you know. I mean, that's a way of looking at what I'm doing today. That's why I'm a Democrat today. I couldn't be anything else.
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Use the promo code podcast. Don't forget that code. That's get sold dot Com Promo Code podcast for thirty percent off. I want to get you out of here on something that I've been and it gets it to how to speak, how to convince some Trump voters that that there's a better way. The George W. Bush essay about George Washington.
Yeah, I love that.
¶ The spirit of democracy requires being to admit you were wrong
I loved it. I thought it was a very clever subtweet of the current occupant in the White House. I saw some of our friends and I'm going to say that on including including at where you've previously were hung your hat every now and then at the bulwark, you know, and they're not alone of people that vacillate. Well, George W. Bush doesn't speak out enough. He should have more directly taken on Trump. And I look at Bush and I think, you know, the guy realizes it becomes at Trump the
wrong way. He could weirdly strengthen Trump and it doesn't help. And I think he thinks about those things, and I think about that essay and go. I think a lot of people who voted Trump, voted for Trump, will read
¶ Nobody likes to hear "I told you so" - It's why Trumpism has persisted
the essay because it doesn't mention Trump, and maybe a few people it will break through. The entire essay was about Trump and the fact that it so I loved it, and I thought, what do you make of the criticism that it wasn't more that he didn't take a sledgehammer?
Essentially, I'm okay with not taking a sledgeham. I just think he should have written that a few years ago.
That's fair.
Okay, that's the problem I have. He should have written it in twenty.
But you understand where they come down. I understand.
I understand that not everybody can take the Conway sledgehammer approach.
We don't well, and with Bush it could boomerang and help Trump weirdly, and he didn't want to do that.
No, that's absolutely right. But you know there are things that he could have said that, don't you know. I have no problem with people. Look, I started out when I went off the reservation in twenty eighteen, or the reservation left me.
I was going to say, Yeah, I don't know what which came first.
You know, I left the camp in the camp, the camp left me, or whatever it is.
You want to Yeah, they took away your pass, whatever.
Whatever metaphor you want to use. I started out by subtweeting, remember, yeah, like I would just like, you know, here I am, I got my phone. Oh here's a nice op ed saying that Trump is, you know, destroying the.
¶ What questions do voters ask you that aren't about Trump?
Justice for right? Interesting read? Yeah, yeah, what.
What is what is Kelly and Conway's husband doing retweeting this liberal whose writing this? You know? And it was like, that was my way of doing it, you know, And
I have no problem with people taking different approaches. I think the criticism that I would still have of George Herbert Walker Bush now George Walker Bush is he could have done a little more earlier, okay, and I wish he had done that, But I completely respect and what he did with this essay, and he does more of it, and maybe maybe he's sort of, you know, doing the path that I did, where you sort of like, don't you know?
Well, as I tell my wife this, I remember early on in Trump R, you'll you'll like, I think you'll appreciate the story. I said, be careful, assuming they're all bad. I said, somebody you don't like might be the hero of this story. And you know, and of course, and then I joked three years later, she's giving money to Liz Cheney. And and so I've always said that everybody has a line that Trump eventually crosses. It's just that everybody's line is in a different place.
And that's right. I mean, and Liz Cheney's example, even Marjorie Taylor Green.
Well, that's my point. I think it's it actually proves the point. Look, your line was crossed.
Sooner twenty seventeen, Liz Cheney.
It took to January sixth, right, That's not I don't. I'm not. I don't think she should be criticized for not getting there sooner, is my point. Like, I think the only way you're going to win converts is to welcome them, don't.
You absolutely, I absolutely agree with that.
And you no, don't say, oh, what took yourself?
That's why I don't. I would never criticize this Cheney for for for for voting for Trump twice, okay, because you know, she thought wrongly that we could kind of get by with him, and then she their line was crossed, and thank god it was crossed because she did, you know, I mean, she what she did in after twenty after January sixth was just and nobody else could have done that.
Right, And that's right. She gave up, she gave she gave backbone to the Democrats. It doesn't happen without her.
And I've been critical somewhat of my Pence right because my view of Mike Pence is, yes, he deserves enormous credit for what he did in January of twenty twenty one. But actually I think he had a moral obligation to concede the election in November or December at the very
¶ We can't do positive things for people until Trump is gone
latest when the Electoral College voted in mid December, because he knew it was over, and he should have said so. And you shouldn't have been afraid of.
Donald you know, and you know who I was political calculations.
I was saying, I can't be your friend anymore, right, like, okay, but again I wouldn't. I don't. That's the I don't. I welcome you. I welcome the things that he's saying right now. And I think absolutely, you're right. We have to, you know. And there are people, there are people on the Democratic side who basically say, oh, you you voted for Trump in twenty sixteen.
It's like, okay, you're part of the problem. You should have done the problem.
I shouldn't be heard from it's like, Okay, well, you know you're not going to fix the if you if you, if you know when somebody toms over to your side and tells.
You you were right, yes, take the wind, take the wind. No, it drives me nuts where people want to like, I can't believe. I have to say, look, just accept that. Marjorie Taylor Green. Now you know, I actually think she's a fascinating.
Oh, totally Robert Draper piece.
It's what no, I mean, here's the thing we all dream of a citizen legislature. She was a woman who owned a gym. She didn't know much about politics, saw how Trump did it, and thought, oh, this is I guess it works this way, I'll try it. And then eventually Trump, like I always tell people trouble, eventually let you down. Because he lets everybody down, you name it, including his father and mother. He lets every single person
in his life down. This is what he does. And she gets there and I've seen some people say yeah, but with her, and it's just like, why don't you respect her journey because guess what she did disagree with you on some ideological concerns, and yeah, she is a bit more of an isolationist and probably a bit more of a nationalist, but she also appears to be a constitutionalist. I will take anybody who's a constitutionalist, regardless of where they stand on on a variety of issues.
And it doesn't mean you can't be critical of her for the crazy some of the crazy things she said about corrects and stuff like that. But you can say, thank God, she's doing the right thing now, and you know you can't and you shouldn't reject the fact that she wants to basically make things better in much the same way that we do. And that's like, I welcome that.
I mean, it's like you don't win, you know, I mean, what if the Allies, I mean the Allies, were they going to say, Italy, Joseph Stalin, we got it four. Let's let's know, we're not going to let you switch sides.
I mean, come on, I mean, right, we could have easily said, oh screw you. You guys weren't with us at the beginning, half you Stalin, and we'd still be fighting the war.
And you're that's not how that's that's Look, the human part of the human condition and part is that we fun up, we make mistakes, We make judgments, We don't see the truth as it really is. Sometimes we deny, we convince ourselves. But part of you know, maturity and character, and frankly of the kind of spirit that should animate a democracy is the humility of knowing that you're not always right and that there are times where you have
to admit that you are wrong. And that is what we need to foster among many people who voted for Trump once, twice or thrice today and that you know, it's like that Saturday Nights Live skit that we saw a couple of weeks ago with the mom. See that one where the mom is saying, I have something to say. I want you not to say anything in response, and she's like kind of trying to force out that I may have been wrong in thinking that Donald Trump was
you know, good for the country. And the kids go, well, Mom, don't shut up, don't and we have to be those kids. We have to be those kids. And the kids are like, you know, they said, Mom, we talked no, no, stop, I told you no.
Nobody likes to be told I told you.
Nobody likes to be told that they're wrong. Nobody likes to be admitted, to admit that they're wrong, But we need to make it easier for people, because it really is a lot of why trump Ism has persisted is that people he led people so far astray that in order for them to recognize how far morally they strayed, they have to look themselves in a mirror and admit how bad he is, which makes them feel bad about themselves.
So they and everything, and so they leave, They leave News Max on, Fox News on so they don't have to hear the bad things that are happening. And you know, sooner or later at the grocery store, they're going to figure out, oh, this isn't working out so well.
Well, I'm tempted to give you the dumb New York City questions to like your favorite bagel joint, metzer Yankees and all that, all the nonsense. But you know, in all seriousness, when you're out there, what are the you know, and I'm gonna get you out here on this, what are the questions voters ask of you that are not about Donald Trump?
You know, the ones who come up to me talk about Trump.
I think, well, I that would be my instating.
You know, I mean, I can tell you you know, there absolutely is I mean, there's a reason why Zorium Mumdani is the Mayor of New York. There are a lot and there's a reason. You know, it's not just in there are problems with how you know, I mean, we're living in an era where healthcare is becoming it's the most rapidly growing industry in New York.
It's our job growth engine, the job.
Because we're all getting older, and because we're getting older, we're getting sicker, and there's higher demand for you know, medical services and medicines. And you know, when you have increased demand and supply isn't necessarily you know, it's it's creating costs that people can't afford, and we need to figure out a way to make the necessary care affordable. Absolutely, and obviously that's something that greatly confer the the the the refusal to to fund the subsidies, and and and
and and so on. You know, people are concerned about that. They're concerned about the cost of housing in New York City. Absolutely, it's crazy. It's always been crazy expensive. But it's you know, it's no, it's not it's you know, you need more supply. But you know, a lot of these problems at least from the standpoint of someone from from a federal legislative lever position. Can't be dealt with him til he's gone. And and you know, and there are things like, for example, who who who?
Who?
Who took out the salt deduction?
Right?
Who is Donald Trump?
There was?
That was like his first effort to punish Blue states, Okay, and and and New York, New York City, New York State, New Jersey. They've been paying the price ever since. But we can't, you know, restoring the salt deduction. How are you going to do that with Donald Trump being president? Can't do it. So my answer to everything is I feel your pain, I understand your issue. I agree we have to do something about it. I may not agree,
for example, with Medicare for all. I may support a different approach than Medicare for all or whatever, but I'm with you. That's what that's what we need to do, because you know, we are in we it's become an expectation and duty of government throughout the Western world to
make sure that health care is affordable. But we can't do it until he's gone and we have a government that actually is rational and is not a criminal enterprise designed to fall to support and the financial and egotistical impulses of one deranged to brave human being.
I'm tending to keep going. We've gone a long. I usually don't go over an hour around interviews because I always worry about whether people fade away. But I don't think anybody fades away from you, buch Front.
I mean, this was an amazing conversation.
I look, I wanted. I love to do it again.
I can to talk to a political anthropologist at this length.
Ah, you're very you're you're you're you're amusing to me that you're using my words either against me or with me. But uh, I want to do this again because every week I think, I just you're a process guy. I love process, and we're all trying to ultimately the country is better when there's a process to follow, and what want to do. Grifters don't want process because they get caught when there's When when there's a process. All right,
my friend, be safe on the trail. I mean, I do I assume you worry about those things.
I do worry about these things.
Yeah, we all unfortunately, as my friend Paul Rykoff says, stay vigilant, I think it's true. We all need to all right, sir, be safe.
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