Interview Only w/ Faiz Shakir - Is The Democratic Party’s Future More Progressive?

This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, arteisonal pastries, and fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in

I really dig this.

There is nothing like having an artesion bakery in your freezer to chase away the winter chill. Now is the best time to stay in and enjoy some comforting homemade meals with Wildgrain. I obviously highly recommend it. It is worth giving Wildgreen to try. Right now, Wildgrain is offering my listeners thirty dollars off your first box plus free croissants for life. Come on when you go to wildgrain

And joining me now.

Is a senior advisor to Bernie Sanders, but also the head of executive director of a of a progressive media organization called more Perfect Union.

It's my core.

I've known Faz a long time and one thing that I will tell you about Faz is he.

He can't spin. It's it's I think it's.

His most endearing quality, which is why so many of

And so the.

Point is is you don't have to feel like you're deciphering what he's saying to my questions. It will be pretty straightforward. I hope you take that as accomplished.

I appreciate that, and obviously it goes back to why we got involved in politics in the first place. And ideally it's not enough for spin or the tactical approaches, but rather some conviction.

Well, you actually usually get pretty frustrated by it. I'm curious. Have you ever had clients get frustrated with you that you don't do that?

Thankfully, the people I've worked for have not gotten frustrated. Harry Reid was a truth teller, you know, very kind of classic way, and Bernie Sanders for John Podesta and people like that who generally just appreciated my approach. But I'm sure that if there are many politicians who could potentially get frustrated, who might probably wouldn't work for.

So this is sort of an interesting political environment we're in, right, You can look at it just through the lens of you know, you're hoping progressives have a better shot. You're you're looking at and tactically things couldn't be better for the left right. The opportunities are across the board, but there's it feels that there's something right. There's it's the Democratic Party feels very divided and sort of arguably leaderless. It is worth noting you ran for the Yeah, you went,

No, I don't believe so. I mean the reason that I ran at that time that wasn't because I thought I went, but because I had a case that I wanted to make publicly about the direction of the DNC. And as I watched Ken Martin try to struggle through what I think we're foreseeable understandable challenges that you have a bureaucracy, that you have to navigate and if you

No, that's a great way of putting it.

It does feel as if that he just he doesn't know how to deal with the system.

And I think he'd own it and tell you. I mean, we've had some candid conversations between us about you. My own desires would be to lay out an agenda for twenty twenty six on the Democratic Party side, to say here four or five things we're actively going to go and campaign on to compel that kind of a conversation. I don't think he necessarily sees it as the DNC role. I think Schumer, Jeffries, the leaders of the Democratic Party right now don't want to necessarily campaign in that kind

Well, you're you're getting into something that I think is the real challenge for the party, and I just don't think they have the leadership to do with the challenge right that at the moment. And that is, Look, the party's got a massive brand problem. It's still there. The

That is the one difference.

Now it may not matter in this midterm and because of what you just describe the play dead strategy, which is and you know, let them this is ropen dope, right, let them punch themselves out.

And they're doing a pretty good job.

Yeah.

I mean, Trump debates himself on Iran. Why do you have to put out a statement? He's gonna, he's gonna he's gonna have.

Fractors his own coalition, you see now Joe Rugan and Megan Kelly and you.

Know, and he's doing it all over the place, right if you think about it over the last two weeks, you know. And it's always for a check, right, monsanto to check. So he did the executive order on the on the weed killer. That upsets Maha, right, he doesn't run that upset like he put together this interesting coalition. But when you put together coalitions, you got to keep them.

You got to you gotta deliver.

Yeah, yeah, and he slut them down. I mean, I

Assumed, as would you accept the premise that he is

Right, the Bushes were.

Never like this, right, he he's like this caricature version.

Of this because we don't give him any credit for this, but he is brazen about putting the corruption out loud in front of you, to say, this is exactly why I'm operating everything from you know, you take the Iran war, it's just you know, here we're going to go do

Kind of a music.

They set up these events that are clearly they're very

You know it's this.

It's this stuff that that means table stakes, right, It's the stuff you should be doing as president in an electioneer, sell your agenda, show people, show people an example where you think your agenda's having an impact. And we know what he's going to do. He's going to go there just whin about the word affordability. They're telling me I have to do this, and you're just sitting there going huh okay.

And he's stuck in the bad. As we remember about this with Biden, you get stuck in the finger wag of don't you people know that I am doing amazing things? Why aren't you appreciating all of the amazing things I've done instead of you know what we are argued with Biden.

What did you I.

Noticed over the week at JD. Vance tried, right, he said, you know, he's trying. He was trying to say, yes, I know, there's an affordability issue, and he did the old you know, which is what any presidential administration would do. Hey, was it was really bad when we took over. This is going to take more time meanwhile, which okay, that's sort of beam C plus B minus spin. But when the president says, hey, pay no attention to that, it

Well, you get into the psychology of the Trump advanced thing, which is kind of entertaining and growing.

I mean, you know, yeah, right, you there were there were sort of two core principles to vance that I bought into.

One is that he was genuinely.

A believer in in breaking up these monopolies, you know, corporate consolidation. You know, he would praise Lena Khan. Not many Republicans would do that.

The conservatives, the right wing popula who cosed into the.

DAHO was a JD Vance, you know. So I genuinely believe this is something that is that is that he believes that this isn't just something that he adopted for political purposes.

And then no more.

Foreign wars, right, And here's Trump essentially firing his staffer at job steps, right, allowing companies to go around the Justice Department, and essentially like with the Ticmaster thing, It's like, I mean, you know, this is the thing that like everybody knows the combination to Trump, right, how do you it's a there's a and I always hate to make Seinfeld references because there's it's such an old show now,

Know, the the the combinations of the vault.

You just get get a little boone in her and she'll tell you all spell all the secrets. Well with Trump, well know the combination. You write a check to run on the slush funds, you'll get what you want. You know, you you know there's you know, you got to do a couple of things here, but you do a deal with the family whatever, and you'll get what you want.

It's pretty true.

And you know, I think it's you know, he allows people to know these things because he's trying to He's hanging out a sign like, hey, this is how you do it.

It's really undermine Vance.

Like I just don't think Vance has any anything, any credibility left.

There's obviously this musing about him suggesting Rubio might you know, be a better candidate mar A Lago, And I was wondering if they leaked into your thought about it. When leading up into the Iran War, there's obviously some leakage

My warning to Rubio would simply be when the president besides Iran was a mistake, not if okay, we know when he ain't taken the blame, right, you know, and

I mean this in my view, we can get down for a policy conversation there. So the rationales for this war are worse than you can imagine any prior US intervention anywhere. And it is really doing a great disservice. And we talked about the Democratic Party and the struggles with it that there isn't a leading security minded argument

Well, I don't think here more opposite of America.

First, yeah, right, I mean, who's making the argument, Rand, but you're asking it's actually Rand.

Paul, which which always frustrates me that we we you know, I appreciate the Democrats are focused on the domestic needs and we have to be right, and we just cost of living in formula issues. But if you live in the place of wine, to protect America, we should be making the art, you know.

The issue this is still Vietnam syndrome. Yes, And I think I think infiltrates the democratic brain.

You know, I tend to think that Israel politics is also at play here and that there's some concerns around

So both of them, don't forget the crypto guys too, fair shake where Chuck Schuber actually told them in the AA, I mean, when Chuck Schumer tells the Democratic Caucus you're just going to have to suck it up on crypto.

Yeah, that felt like that.

We have we have crossed the rubicon of of of financial capture, right, and and I know it's fascinating to me you you would appreciate this. I moderated a panel

Do you think see in that, just to stick with that for a second, that in that wonderful NBC pull that you and I read closely, Democrats are at the bottom on approval unfortunately talked about that. But you see who is a little bit below that.

Aif this episode of the Chuck Toodcast is brought to you by Quints. A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last. That's where Quince shines. Premium fabrics, considered design, and every day essentials that feel effortless to wear and dependable even as the seasons change. Quince has the everyday essentials I love with quality that lasts, lightweight cashmere sweaters, not too expensive either by the way,

Do us, the publishers.

It's the same companies that are that are in charge of this. And you know if and oh, by the way, the memory of globalization one point oh wasn't very good for these people. What's interesting is that we are the most negative on AI of any Western country in the world.

Yeah, what do you make of that?

Understandable? And I we should be. I think if you look at to your point of the understandings of what upside benefits does this have to working class people living in paycheck to paycheck sixty percent of Americans, And you say, what aren't you possibly putting on the table to improve their lives? There's really very very little to nothing being put on the line on the line by AI companies, by the tech oligarchs. They say, you're going to generally improve I would argue, we can get down all of

When you have a massive amount of money consume your camp primary campaign. And that's what we're seeing in Illinois right. I think the Illinois Senate race is gross, Yeah, it is.

It is.

It is so gross because it feels like all of the candidates have some sort of sponsor, right that they're you know that they have a title sponsorship.

Right.

One is the crypto guy, one is the AI data center person, one is the anthropic AI people, right. But it's it feels like they've all been captured by some massive industry that is currently trying to buy off Washington. And there's the three people, the three big the three big entities, and four if you want to put an APAC in there.

And it is.

What's interesting is that APEX numbers are actually payo financial

With the ACT.

But it has made me question all those candidates running in Illinois.

It should, I mean, I mean, this is why it's a Bernie Sanders moment in America is because it's not about the policy agen as much as the integrity question. I mean, I think the integrity question of do you orient yourself of being a populast who fights for working class people and that that is who governs your sense of the fights. I picked the people for whom I am going to challenge the wealthy and the powerful.

Fights that you pick. You talk about this all the time. You got to learn, you know, Donald Trump was really good about pick and fights. And you've said this before, and you think Democrats are.

Terrible about it.

They don't like friction by almost it's almost in the DNA now you can sense it that even as we talk right now, in this amount of leading up to

Shared Brown loss because of Crypto fast exactly? I mean, like it is that has It seems like that result that Bernio Moreno became the crypto guy and then dropped the whole ton of cash on Shared Brown in twenty four It seems as if that has just absolutely overwhelm.

This is why great talking with you about these kinds of things, as you live these very well, because you, unlike most political commentators, I think, are able to marry policy and politics, and I think often we get into your Democrats think so heavy heading about policy that they let their politics suffer as a result. Meanwhile, the Republicans are the other way around. They know when they're going to govern, they're going to govern on behalf of crypto.

So, I it's interesting that you call it. You think you're there's a Bernie Sanders moment here. I certainly think there's an outsider, independent moment that's happening. And I'm but you know, I'm one of those that getting close isn't going to mean anything to me in twenty six. You know, if Osborne loses again, okay, then it didn't work. Just because you come close doesn't mean it's It doesn't work. If Seth Bodner is not a United States Senator out

Well.

But all three could happen. Maybe three, All three could benefit from not having a party label A La Bernie.

Yeah, but also I think the over unders matter that the delta's in the margins. So I wouldn't go all the way to saying, hey, I hear you're still trying to figure out what is the right directional form of politics that people that matches what people would support, and for a democratic parties trying to find its way, I'm arguing that some of these independents are offering a kind of different working class economic first agenda, then should influence the way in which we think. Right.

You know, I was.

Spending a little bit of extra time on the FDR coalition a couple of weeks ago and going back through some of it, and you do realize that FDR's decision

Issues, this is the priority.

And this to me is always how the Democrats get in their own way, right, they punish a candidate it isn't correct on these social issues, and that still seems to be the struggle the party is having.

And why these these Osborne's of the world or.

Or the Bodiers of the world are going you know what, I'm better off from running as an independent. That way I can say no to some of these groups and not get punished for it.

Right. I mean again, in the wonderful NBC poll I they get asked, you know, Republicans and Democrats essentially, would you prefer a candidate who has closer ideology to you? Or electability arguments? And it was always been generally the case that Democrats have favored these kinds of electability arguments, and still did in that poll. Though there's a little bit more ideological.

It was a twenty point right.

It was like Republicans were like seventy twenty and you know, this is what I have a big progressive lean In

You know, they seem to always cave to its moderates.

And I always say, look, there is a math problem that the Democrats have, right, which is the self described conservative is about ten points more than the self described liberal, and what does that mean in your goal to get to fifty percent? Republicans need fewer middle of the road voters than Democrats do. Right, continues to be a math problem.

For the last maya pill fight on this within the Democratic Party ranks has been a kind of a rearguard difficult fight, which is that Bernie Sanders is a stronger under election candidate than he as a primary candidate. And if to understand that, you haven't been able to never been able to get there, and I would argue, well, sadly, we'll never see it, but I would. I'm firm about my own personal views on that, and as if if

I am near a Tandon shares your belief in that that this is that this is a moment. Now, she's more in the this is a moment for the Democratic Party, don't screw it up type of moment. I I'm a bit more pessimistic. I think where I think there needs to be another kick. You know, there's a Mitch McConnell phrase that I sort of like that he uses, which is, there's no there's no second educator, there's no extra education with the second kick to the head by a mule.

Or something like that.

And yet I have a feeling that I have a feeling that twenty six is going to give Democrats false hope about twenty eight and that they will go in the wrong direction. Well, what happened in eighty six eighty eight, it was a very similar situation.

The the big TVD there though, is that unlike let's call it twenty twenty two, when you say, you know, led to the kind of the wrong false hope that you're referring to. There was an assumed front runner right of the Democratic nomination. There wasn't going to be as much of a debate there should have been, should argue, but there there wasn't sure by this time there will be right, There will be actively has to be a

And oh, I'm more convinced today than I would have been five years ago that they that Bernie wins the twenty sixteen election.

Right unfortunate and.

I was probably would not have been in that camp in twenty eighteen seventeen.

But I think he you know, if we could rind the clock fifteen years younger where he could run, he would do very well. So is there a natural follow on? Is the obvious question? Who most is closest to the conceptions of what are the best political attributes of Bernie?

You know, it's interesting, You're right, I'm I'm you know. I think another under sould aspect to Bernie, which is why I'm more skeptical of AOC, is that he was from a rural state. Yeah, and so there's a little bit more credibility than coming from you know, had he always been, had he stayed in Brooklyn and been a New York senator, I don't know if.

He's the same following well.

I mean, I know that it's a small thing, but I wonder because there is just a there is a branding that comes with New York Democrat, California Democrat that you don't get with Vermont.

Yeah, liberals different, you know.

Yeah, by his orientation is very much a class base there. You know, it's a.

Class and what the Democrats.

This goes back to the Democrats need a good old fashioned class warfare. Campasely, this is what FDR did, But

To do that. Right.

Maybe I'd quibble with drop the culture because the thing I get concerned about on this front is you cannot go before the American public and lie and deceive them about what you might honestly believe. What you're trying to argue. In my mind over is what is the primacy of the things that I most care about from my end litigated the sober Kambla and other people, is that when you don't have the privacy of an economic justice, class based argument that people believe and trust and say, oh,

So what would should be doing if you were running

Oh, yeah, we're on a text chain. You know, Osborne and Bangs and the guy in Idaho, I'm blanking on his name.

I apologize. They're gonna be mad at me. Todd Todd yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, thank you.

What would you be doing with them if you were at the dnc UH.

In my view, we have some really great candidates. So, first of all, while acknowledging that you've mentioned some that are kind of maybe problematic or challenging for you know, do you advance a Democratic Canada surveying the field, is there a strong candidate or not? You have to make prioritizations the question we're just say, well, who is a

So what would you do though, about the secondary races of Montana and Nebraska?

What do you suggest on the table? I mean, we're not going to be We're not going to be.

The ward agreed to stand down in Nebraska. I mean it seems like that's a that's an open secret. Montana's a different story where you have John Tester endorsing the Independent.

Yeah.

Yeah, So in my mind, if you feel like there's a good chance that we could capture the Senate with Democrats majority of the Democrats, why wouldn't you let a flyer run in Montana or wherever the case might be, in which we don't necessarily have to feel as a Democratic Canadon because we think we can defeat the Republican

Yeah, No, I mean, I just this is the look. I kind of think we kind of need a a moment, that that push that forces both parties to rethink of what they are, right, and that's what that's what independent candidacies can do.

They're not replacements, right, We're not We're not doing that. There's not a third party that becomes a second party per se. But there's definitely interest in this, right. You see it among younger voters. I assume you see it a lot in your work at more Perfect Union.

I mean the MVP, and we've seen this and Bernie as he gets that he's done the fight, all Gurchy rallies and the course of the last year, and we look at the match, every attendee over the vility of moves minutes, and then same with the MVU, and we look at all of our audience where they're coming in. Particularly if you're younger than thirty five, you're you're an independent, You're no party preference. Honestly, even if you might say you're done, you're not really. And so a lot of

What I always say independent usually is is you know, they nobody wants to feel like they have to own everything, the deeds and the rs stand for these days where I understand why people don't want to do that.

And that the partisanship isn't what appeals to people right now. It is I don't want to beat the dead horse hero once again, that the people's economic lives govern their orientation and they're thinking about politics, not the other way around. Politics doesn't tend to govern I mean, l sure like you and me political animals. If you think about politics all the time, most people I think about their economic lives of the struggles, and then working backwards to does

Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from personal experience.

I was sixteen when my father passed away.

We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow. Myself sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to pay for college and lo and behold. My dad had one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

You know, it's a I think at some point we were always do for some kind of natural orientation on this. To be honest with your idea, the sustainability of these kinds of state by state approaches is in this age, what we understand of Trump is a sense of authoritarianism, and you sense that there's an appeal among some people in the public rightly so that all structures across the board become dysfunctional. There's lack of trust in democracy because

Well, there's this mindset of.

Do whatever it takes to grab power, then you can implement an agenda. And I sense that that is where

I'll know that there I don't even see.

That session or just get power and then we'll worry about everything else.

Yeah, I mean, I guess the quibble there is do you sense an orientation of once you have power, what are you going to do? What is a first order priority of how do you solve this fundamental problem? And I think we have to make sure that it's an integrity based movement of people are saying, hey, here's the right way an election system should work. Let's have national readition.

Do you worry that the left giving up it's look? I do think so let me defend Here's how I would defend the Democratic Party's lack of why there's a little bit of fear of putting themselves out there or

Then you throw it all away here. You can't get that back.

Are you going to regret in the long run not being seen as the party that was willing to put fairness above partisanship.

I don't live with that fear, and I think everyone is fully aware of why we are engaged in a kind of asymmetrical warfare and the need for a different orientation to meet the crisis of the moment, and that happens to be around Donald Trump, and is the lack of value system of how he thinks about how to government, and so you say, okay, well we we're going to fully lose our values. Is we got to fight a fight right now, the bullies in the in the in

Adults, well, pragmatism has become code for status quo exactly.

You know, adult minded is to say, no, listen, guys, don't fight fights, you can't win, don't worry what this is the system as it's always been, don't worry about it. And I don't mean to describe oversubscribes to it, but there has been a sign mentality around people who are upper class, upper educated. Right have you know you're making over one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, you have an advanced degree, and you're like, fundamentally there, we don't

Who's the heir apparent to Bernie?

I want a lot of people competing for that, Lade Jack, I want I want a lot of people throwing their hands.

Is who do you think is doing a good job competing for the mantle right now?

Good job competing is a high barber at the moment. I mean, there's obviously people. He has a great fondness for college Kagi pretension, He's gone out into the world with He's done events with a number of people.

I mean, if it looks like he has a preference for her, if you're just watching observationally and how many times he's done events with her versus others.

But by reading the.

Word preference is doing a lot of work for you there. But I'd say what is clear is that he respects that she has built something of a national appeal and has a lot of young people in particular who believe in her and her vision of leadership. And he feels like he learned something from that. Right is that, Oh, here's somebody cultivating a populist kind of large natural, wide scale support. And for those of us, you know, Will

No, I mean, I'm you know, look, I Will Rocanna would like to be considered.

What you say, what do you make of him?

He's a very what you know about Row, he's very strategic and smart thinker, and you know his Silicon Valley polis.

He lets the strategic thinking go get to public.

I don't know that that's a it's a flaw I would put on him. I mean, you want people to be them.

I like it, but I wonder if it plays like if it looks like he's being too calculating at times.

I mean he is calculating.

He is a calculating person. That's who he is. He's somebody is not right.

I mean it up front, he moved to Silicon Valley simply because he thought it was better to represent that

He's smart and I think you would add if you were here, he's a strategic, smart thinking person. Like that's great. And you know in this competitive environment you're saying, I think in this you know, it's not the presidency, it's not just a battle over width of intelligence. It is really kind of who captures the emotions and the visceralness of the feelings of American especially post Trump, where I think we'll have once again this moment of sensing who who.

You know, it's interesting.

Here'd be the I think a challenge that a sort of Burnie protege might have in twenty eight is that while there's a big demand for change, there's an exhaustion from all the disruption Trump has caused. And I think that's going to be a competing issue, right, You're going to have I call it the divide is not left versus center. It really is fight versus unite a little bit.

You're closer to them or not. It's just it bothers people.

It's disruptive, like you know, you know, it is why you know, why hasn't Trump been punished more for by the voters.

Well, the voters kind of.

Knew he was always going to do certain things, so

And where I'm agreeing with you is that in that disruption argument, we need or want candidates who wrestle with coming in with an agenda and a plan on which is executable. That I think this project twenty twenty five, which obviously has now governed a lot of what Trump has done, and the fact that really came in with the qualifier doge and a lot of the desk.

To learn from.

Yeah, I'm trying to learn from that one. Yeah. I mean, I could not stress this far, and I don't think enough thinking is being done on the left of center of given that you've got a reorientation if you were to walk into the presidency right now.

It's what you know.

It's interesting, it's what says She's trying to get cap to do is essentially be focused on if he can destroy an agency without congressional approval, Well, what can you do with agencies in other ways without congressional approval?

We want to know. It comes more from Alena con Wing of our party, which is to say, here's a woman, the talented person of integrity, comes into the FTC and says, here's all these latent powers that many people didn't even know existed, didn't believe this agency should operate in the way that it is. I'm coming in to reinstill a

Like, no, it's a little bit of agency capture.

Yes, So.

Of the all the people that run around floating, you know, sort of that are auditioning right now to run for president Among the Democrats, who do.

You pay attention to the most?

Who are you like I'm curious how they were received with that message, or I'm intrigued by the message they're using, or I don't understand what they're up to.

You know, I'll just start name names. Gavin Newsom.

Obviously he's built the strongest small dollar fundraising network. I mean, if you if you start not only with the polls of him building his traction and support off of Trump Brown, I mean, in many ways, it's kind of become the clearest you know, you almost we have the visual in our head, the finger point right of Trump right off the tarback right, that's what the guy, yeah, right, He's built it and he's cultivated. I think what he has done more effectively than anybody so far is he's translated

In George, do you know any policy proposal he's offering.

I don't think he's really I mean, he's obviously doing the podcast circuits, which is yeah.

That's my thing with him, and that's why I think it's a it's probably a sugar high well.

By the way, on that right, he's stuck in the morassos where well, tax is probably one of the biggest fights of our age right now, one of the point one of the biggest public If I go out anywhere to any town hall, I don'kay put a bunch of bag of people from me and I talked about taxing the rich. I guarantee you I got a hell lot of support. And here he is in what in California, basically opposing well Texan, not figuring out exactly he's.

Probably eliminating himself from Democratic Party contention, and he doesn't fully realize.

Employees out, but I imagine he's not, you know, not where the public is right now. AI too, by the way, you know, data centers also on the wrong side of that one. But not only him, I mean Shapiro Winmer. A lot of the governors have been stuck in these wrong I think, wrong positions on you know, cozying up to big tech BOLLI guards on Datisenter's Rob Emmanuel.

You know, he's doing it differently than everybody else right now, which I find just I'm always interested in.

Different you know. And I was talking before about the sense that you have just politic better, and at least to his credit, he's like, I'll own that I'm just the politic better. I think the struggle that had to have with wrong right, you know, as well as here's the person been in politics for like twenty thirty years.

I don't know how his baggage right. I think his resume is too long for what people are looking for today.

Right to be on every side of various fight and draft have you. You and I could go every text.

You would be able to, you would be able to knit, you could pick a thousand knits in a Democratic primary, and he would be death by a thousand cuts. And yet what he's doing on the education issue is I think something that and he's been right, he came on this podcast and said, you know, I don't know why the Democratic Party stopped talking about education. And He's right, as a national issue, the Democrats have kind of surrendered this.

Issue a great yes, so you and I'll challenge.

I think it's why Latinos. I think it's why Latinos had.

Been flirting with the Republicans, because the one thing Republicans do on a state level is they talk about education. Now, they don't want they want to gut public education. But you know, if you're a Latino voter, you care about education. One party is talking about giving you an opportunity to do something different.

The other party's saying nothing right.

So what I love about him, and I appreciate this, is that he is willing to throw ideas into the bay. Mix it up. Let me just say that's on education. What I what I worry about is obviously, you could get phones out of schools, that's easy, but you got to take on the power a big tech. That's a funmentally different question. I think related to this is all throw an idea. You know, I'm a pro labor guy,

So that would be enormously popular. And I have no idea why some of this.

It should be built around trades, food, finance. We should teach kids how to cook those imagine summer programs that more built not edu caring you.

For life skills, a summer of life skills. But it's mandatory education. Nobody says you have to go to the same school. Maybe a camp offers it. Maybe it's a form. Look what you're getting to. I love this idea because what it gets me closer to is national mandatory national service.

And so now I'm one hundred. We'll stay with that one. So I think of the ideas I think to put on the agenda for twenty twenty. I hope there's Democrat candidates who sense that having scenes around them done, you execute a thirty dollars hour snow shoveling job in a crisis. We need to take that kernel of an idea and

I think if you did a mandatory national service that was bigger than this. Is not about the military draft, you know this is different.

Well, it's a version of it. Domestically. It's saying that, unlike a military, we mobilize people in service, which you know is I'll confuse people on my views on ICE, but I do then to think a lot of people who sign up for ICBP right now see a fifty thousand dollars bonus are motivated not only financially but also

Under Yeah, let's talk a little geographic tactics. If you could pick the ideal first four states to start the democratic primary process?

I got my first. That's easy, right? Where am I going? First?

What are you? Is your four? What do you think

At one hundred percent? So that that's Nevada to.

Start in Nevada. First person? Are you on the DNC?

Did you get I'm removed?

Oh yeah, removed? Congrats.

I guess the Eurosy has got a different order. But I understood and I was comfortable with it, to be clear, I'm just not me upset about it.

So I but look, you come for the king best not miss hey.

They do will be a service of not needing to be off. Then well, I think that I would love Nevadi go first. There's a lots of reasons. You know, I'm an old free guy, and I think there's a lot of things about that state that that service it well. And in terms of a primary the compressed geography is he've able to meet and talk to people one to one, do TV ads and such that don't blow the budget. So I think that that makes sense.

For one.

I love you're.

Not concerned that Vegas is too big of a market now, No, I.

Think it's got a lot of working class people, culinary you know this. I mean, I love that the labor approach of that city is one that would orient Democrats and figuring out how to talk about labor again. I mean, we don't go through the dough tax on tips. But Trump was very loud and proudly about the fact that that state and those workers in that state have guided him to one of his more popular proposals. You know,

That's a big state to put in the top four.

Yeah it is, but it's such a again because.

Always worry about the big states just favoring the money candidates.

That's all. Yeah, No, that's fair to where it's in the first four. It is an open question here. I like, I probably put Georgia over North Carolina, but between Georgia and North Carolina for me on one of those, uh, and then and then we got a TVD here on what we want us the fourth.

Well, I here's the here'd be.

My concern about your map, and and what I've been obsessed with is that I do think what Iowa did do for the Democratic Party for a long time is that it got it forced Democrats to talk to world voters right and to go out and it's you know, and look, I understand there's this scar tissue.

From Iowa and.

For for the you know, two times in a row it's not clear who won and and and you know that's you want to be our first in the nation, and you can't tell us who won twice now, right. So I understand that aspect. But there's also a party building aspect.

Right.

So if you make Kansas or Nebraska, which could easily both, you know, I could make the case for both of them as an Iowa like replacement. You also might start organizing a state and turning it and turning a state that's light red at the moment to a swing state.

Yeah. Unfortunately, that isn't the story of Iowa as we know.

No, but once it was there, it was I mean which case I think, Look, Iowa, New Hampshire are there are two states that demographically don't belong in the battleground, and they were in the battleground a long time. And I think it's simply because they were first in the nation states, meaning that voters, I think voters, this is where we underestimate voters. If you treat voters like swing voters,

Right, I'll give you a crazy idea that I've long had about this out, which was along those lines, was to look at highest democratic performance of every state and line them up by which state parlies. In other words,

Like a reverse lottery, right, Like you you earn you want first in the nation be the best democratic performing stage.

You have a spot for them essentially, Like you know, I'm not a huge soccer fan, but be from what I understand, you know you have like the you know, the second tier, the.

Good stuffy exactly you want to be in the first tranche of primaries where you'll get a lot of candidates and a lot of money, a lot of extra resources, or do you want to be in the second trants of primaries or it might be a coronation by the time your your statement.

Thanks for only challenge with my line of thinking there is that sometimes sometimes the smaller states benefit because.

Every month in Delaware could both benefit.

I'm sure right exactly, so I do though think to your part, I mean, it's making your argument here how and why you could have a recipe to do that. It's okay, a smaller state that will overperform getting democratic vote out and we'll have earned a spot in the first four by virtue of that. And I think it's not a bad thing to everything that you just say.

How that's where?

Or how about Kansas sixteen sixteen years of Democratic governors

Yeah. Yeah, But on this though, the the thing I'm trying to express is not just that Democrats have held offices, is that we're building our ranks. I want to see and reward those in the state parties who are who are doing an aggressive job of building the people. And

Well, but let's fast forward to the twenty thirty two problem for Democrats, which is, right, the Kamala Harris map in twenty twenty four, if she carries Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, she has two hundred and seventy electoral votes in twenty thirty two, that same group of states, it's worth two hundred and fifty nine.

So where do you invest?

Look, I understand rewarding those states, but you've I think the Democrats have to put more states in play. They have to start looking for And to me, Kansas is just ripe. I just I view, Kansas is really ripe on this issue more than any other state in this sort of mid mid in the middle part of the country. And then there's the question of Texas and Florida. Right,

But do you got to find somewhere in the Sun Belt to invest in? I mean Georgia obviously we're talking.

Imagine if they hadn't done Georgia, right, and you know Georgia, North Carolina nour must wins.

They're not nice to have anymore.

And how to my mind, you can't lose the SEC this year after it's like, that doesn't.

Which ones would you go to? I haven't been intrigued. My favorite ones to look at that I think are organizable probably the way I would begin obviously, look, we'll see what Texas does. You know, winning is a big deal, right if Tyllerica wins.

Winning is a big deal.

But over that does bring dollars to the state party. I was reading.

I was doing the history of Texas campaigns weeks ago and the John Tower victory in nineteen sixty one when Republicans broke through the first time in sensory reconstruction. It said like that was the first That following year is the first time the national Republicans had ever written a check to the state Republicans in Texas. Right, like it opened, it does open the mind. Coming close doesn't always do that. Actually,

Yeah, and how do you think of that as different from Alabama as compared we obviously Doug Jones was you know, center obviously in a bit of a fluid situation, but nevertheless we did it.

African American voters in Mississippi, Mississippi. I mean, I don't disagree that. I think, look if if you succeed in Mississippi and Alabama surrounded right Georgia on one side, Mississippi and the.

Other, and then you'll find out. I think Alabama is just a little bit different.

And yeah, probably I've been intrigued by more of the labor activity in the state. Obviously, you know U A W. D. Donham Mercedes organizing campaign. There's Amazon warehouse organizing in Alabama. That was United mind workers who have been fighting.

Shipbuilders down a mobile. I mean, there's definitely some I think.

The labor base starts and it leads to a candidate too. So we're talking, we're talking about candidate. It's intrigued by you know, Holly Schaffner I think is her name, Who's who's running against Tom Cotton the cycle in Arkansas. I mean, obviously very very uphill fight. But I love a lover bio, which is a work farmer who you know who's standing with the farm workers in the very economic minded argument,

Let me get you out of here.

I realized we're just going over now, and I don't mean to do that to you. Let me get you out of here on this, did you have a big preference between Tall Rico and Crockett? What did you make of that primary campaign?

I could just tell you.

I say this not just as a as a guy who just enjoys a good campaign, but I felt like I felt like I didn't want that campaign to end yet. I wanted a couple more weeks. And it wasn't just because it was fun. I actually think they didn't debate enough. I wanted a little bit more of this debate. There was a stylistic debate, yes, but there was some issues that were getting lost, right, Like, you know, tall Rico is moderate and temperament progressive in his in his belief system.

Think so, Yeah, Teller in many ways, in my view at least, was embodying a lot of a Bernie kind of argument with a different type of tone.

Inside, putting it with a religious tone, which is right, Bernie's never gone down the religious defy.

Yeah, And so I think I think I was very pleased to see that kind I mean, I did feel like, here's a guy who's campaigning on a version of what I could imagine centaor Sanders doing in Texas.

And trying to sell Bernie to a different group of voters. Is what I would have at it?

Is that fair exactly?

Yes, And he's talked to about his respect admiration for center Sanders. So I think that I was there with with Crockett obviously having gotten Commas endorsement, it felt much more around a reflexive anti Trump type of campaign which does meet a lot of voters where they're at of you know, give me that fight in a sense of swagger and a comfort in the in the kind of I am compared to not play by rules with this guy, you know, And there's some appeal to them, for sure.

He wins a Texas Center race or we are we ridiculous to think of him as a presidential contender automatic.

No doubt, I mean that given the where it's at right now, I think both Tellerico and if you know, who knows what happens in Maine with Platner, But you have these two candidates are.

Pretty charismatic and pretty they've got outsized personalities, and you.

Could I mean, obviously we'll have to know who the governor is to get on succession problems and all that. But the in the Texas houses problem right clearly, but I.

Think you'd take that problem. You know, the only way that happens is if he actually won the presidency.

But anyway, yeah, right right, But I do think that, you know, it would be very compelling. And you remember the Obama story well, but it was probably too he was the incentive for two years at least. These these folks would lily be in the Senate for immediately.

No Right always asked me who's going to be the Democratic nominee, and I'm like, well, none of the people you're talking about, And I said, I just sort of know that I kind of know Democrats. They usually want the newest, hottest flavor, and that could be Molly McMorrow, that could be James tall Rico, that could be Dan Osborne. You know, I say this, and I'm like, you know, none of us saw Pete Bootage as aider.

I think you mentioned this earlier on independent side, which is true that had somebody running as a third party could definitely do very well in twenty twenty eight and be a concern or issue here. But within the Democratic Party ranks that outsider, I think, which.

There's an outsider lane, yeah, yeah, And right now I don't see there's there's no governor that's even you know, Andy Basher. I think some people thought was going to do this, and he seems to be trying. I think he's at risk of losing what made him different, that he's almost becoming part of the of the leadership structure of the party DGA and stuff.

Some people don't remember Steve Bullock ran for president and when you look at the bullet, you know, the resume matches like it looks nice and there's a good kind of theoretical appeal about it. And then as you know, you're in a presidential politics butter in a frying pan. You know, it's a very different beast and you have to be kind of a lot of different things that you don't have to be as governor.

I just can't imagine Bernie's going to sit on the sidelines fast this is going to once.

You have an idea, Russ, let us know, check who should we be getting behind?

And I mean, no, that's the thing, like I think, you know, why shouldn't I assume Bernie gets in.

Oh for the reasons that you would, I.

Know why he shouldn't. But I just know it takes to be Yah still the most popular politician in America.

Until they come out with the anti aging pill, which please you know looking for at pharma, you know, bring it out, but until.

Big Farma could do right.

You know what, Big farm has been hiding that pill for fear that Berdie gets elected.

You know that I'll get you out of here. On.

Tell me about More Perfect Union and where people can find what your work.

The love if they go to YouTube, as the kids say, like and subscribe YouTube backslash More Perfect Union. We're up to well over three million subscribers, are getting over two hundred million views a month, and we're like, we're rocking and rolling. So please be among those who are helping us grow independent means.

And take one percent of those those liking subscribes. There.

That's a pretty impressive, impressive movement. You got going there fast. It's great to catch up,