¶ David Lesch joins the Chuck ToddCast
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¶ Origin of "Dodgers to Damascus"
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Well here at the Chuck Podcast, when you get a book proposal to interview somebody and the book is called Dodgers to Damascus, it's almost as if the publication was trying to identify me as the target's interview e as a Dodger fan, growing up as a political junkie. Now policy junkie a story, and this is a biography. The book itself as a biography of my guest today, David Lesh, who is who began his studies of the Middle East
by being a prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. We'll let him, I'll it's ways, that's exactly what it was,
¶ It's weird reading about someone else's writing about yourself
that the dream of baseball. Like a lot of of aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes get in the way of a career. And you use another part of your body, your brain to pursue another passion, which is what David Lesh did. And it's a fascinating story. And the book is fascinating but sort of lessons from baseball to help resolve the Middle East crisis or crises plural. So David Lesh joins me now the subject of the book, David, welcome to the podcast. It's nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you, too, supposed to be. I'm glad the book sound its way across your desk. That's great.
So let me ask this what's it? I mean it is this. You didn't write the book, you participated. It is an authorized biography. That's it's almost like your.
You you you.
I always say it's sort of it's going to be awkward with It's like you are willing to expose yourself to the to the world. And I think when you're when somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right, You're, You're, that's a lot of you got to You're You're always being asked to give more and more. What did it feel like to read about yourself through a third person?
It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of it for me. In fact, Catherine Nixon Cook, who did such a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote this book, and she called me one time she said, David, I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said why, and she said, because you're still alive, you know you're That's.
Wuld be my challenge as a writer if I had this assignment. You know, you're you're you. You want to make a conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if they're still alive, how do you word it in a way that doesn't make them either feel like you're doing their obituary or you're taking a shot at them.
Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully as a metaphor for better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my life as we go forward. In all ways, but it was a very weird experience, and I was compelled to be introspective in a way that you know, at this age of my life, I didn't you know, figure I'd
be doing. And it forced me to look at a lot of situations throughout my life. It was interesting to
¶ What drew David to the Middle East
see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know, colleagues and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to see what they thought of me, and which was much better that I had anticipated, by the way. But so it was in a writing experience. It was emotional at times because I had to revisit some periods and events in my life that you know, had a great deal of impact in positive and negative ways. But was it was
really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine. A very positive experience overall.
So let's talk about what's drawn you to become, you know, the essentially to do all the scholarship that it takes to become a Middle East expert. And I always I put experts in quotes because an expert of what these days, right, it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right, You're a civilization. You're trying to understand and what it really
is is. You know, I have my own opinions about how we just don't people don't understand the history of the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, right' that's my largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff. But what drew you to it? Why did you want to make this your area of expertise?
Well, I struck out it everything else chuck.
So yeah, oh, there you go. There's the dad pun striking out there.
It is no I think as in most cases, and what I hope I'm doing to some of my students as a professor now is I had a couple of wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just pure luck. I was always interested in international relations. Lou
¶ Most people don't understand the Middle East pre 1948
Cantorre and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well known in the field, and they just turned me on to a subject that at that time, you know, the late seventies, early eighties, as you well know, it was not covered very well or objectively. And so I did the more I started studying it, and more importantly, when I started traveling there, I just became enamored with that history, with the people and why things you know, went off the track, so to speak. So much in so many
areas in the Middle East. I wanted to understand that and hopefully later on as I as I hope I've done in my books to help explain it to an audience.
So I have a bit of a snarky sort of take on when it comes to sort of are what
¶ Fall of Ottoman Empire isn't covered well in public education
I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've always felt I've never felt as if that part of my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I get sort of if I get my back up, I joke anytime I hear the word populism, whether it's left wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first
thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know, I realize in sort of the in the this began before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the amount of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre nineteen forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we had generationally was and then it realized, well, how are we taught World War One and World War Two. And I think about World War One and we're I'm guessing you
had a similar grade school experience that I did. You're a little bit older than me, but we basically, I think, you know, probably that fairly consistent education there, which was we're taught World War One through the prison of World War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much, made
him angry and it started the Second War. We never talk about the other part of World War One, which was the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the fact that in some ways, and a couple as I joke, a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw straight lines and say you get a country you don't you do?
You know?
And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's a bit of a snark, but it's it does get at what I think is the root issue of our misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which is not understanding how it all broke apart after the Ottoman Empire.
Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general, Westerners especially Americans, had this telescopic view toward the Middle East,
¶ Artificial divisions in Middle East were to benefit Europe
and we need a microscopic view, and the telescopic view is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions.
Incomplete, absolutely, and complete is the best description I think.
Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as you will know, and sound bites and social media and so forth, people want information in small bytes and small packets, and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one page brief, less than one page brief instead of reading a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially a country like the United States, which has so many
issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. If we're a president, to focus on one single thing and really understand it is very very unusual unless they have a background in it. But yeah, I mean the Automan Empire. You talk about the two drawing Frenchmen that Jordan was always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had a hiccup and drew that partage ordinate sticks out. But the reality is it was to connect pipelines from the Version
Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was all strategic reasons behind all of this. And one of the things people understand, I think the British and the French obviously allied on the Tient powers in World War One, but they always saw each other as potential enemies.
After the war, they were competing for pieces of the Middle East.
Right exactly, And so you know, Syke's Pico and all these infamous secret wartime agreements were always you know, from each side aimed at the other for what they hope would be victory and defeating the central Powers, including the Ottoman Empire. But you're right, I mean, the fall of the Ottoman Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's the Eurocentric orientalist view of World War One and what happened with the artificial divisions in the Middle East.
¶ Countries in the Middle East lack a national identity
Well, you know, it's interesting. This is also this week is the anniversary of Panamanian independence, and essentially Panamanian independence came because Teddy Roosevelt kind of deal because he wanted to a strip of land to build animal canal. So they basically created Panamanian independence, right, And it reminds me of sort of how the Europeans dealt with the Middle East.
It's the same way the United States has dealt with Latin America essentially for the last hundred years, which is what can you do in the region for us, not what can we do for you in the region. Is that a simplistic view, But is that how you would sort of describe sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the Middle East over the last hundred years.
Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the
¶ Davd's relationship with Bashar Al-Assad
one hundred year but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, as we were there to that coming up too, agreements, But yeah, absolutely. I mean, all countries act in their own national interests and if they have leverage in terms of those interests, that are going to exercise that leverage.
And what Israel has done, you know, ever since it came into being in nineteen forty eight, and what all countries do the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians, and without taking into consideration or very much consideration, the wants and needs of the local populations other than that which will feed their own strategic interests. And so that's that's very very true. And it's you know, the countries in the Middle East, they lack in many ways in
national identity, They lack, the rulers lack legitimacy. A lot of that goes all the way back to the artificiality of the heartland of the Middle East.
We just created monarchies right out of these tribal leaders.
Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the
¶ Assad was raised as an authoritarian and child of conflict
Mcadafi and Nasir and Mobark and Asad, they all want to be. They all wanted to be and were in some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out to be monarchies in effect.
So who did you have which aside did you have did you start to strike up I don't want to say relationship, but sort of a conversation with.
Yeah, that was Bashar al Assad, who came to power in two thousand after his father died. And you know, I'd been going to Syria quite some time, and and you know, I like to consider myself a Middle Eat specialist in media trant areas, but Syria's is definitely my number one specialty. And I traveled the ore over thirty thirty five times over the years, and so I knew
I had a pretty good network in Syria. Particularly in mine academics, and when Oside came to power in two thousand, he brought academics into the government, which some fought as you know, hope for the future, others I was.
Just going to say, there was a brief period where they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll be king using right, yeah.
Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even the back day in the seventies, and and you know he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western you know, technological toys. You know, he was a computer nerd.
And everyone was educated in London, right educated.
He received you know, he was trying to get his what is essentially his Boord certification ophalmology in London. But people have to remember he only spent you know, two
years in London. And even though he liked the Electric Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know, his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child of the ar of Israeli conflict, a child of the super power conflict when Syria was on the side of the Soviet Union in Russia, and most most importantly, a child of Hafaz Alalasad, his father, who had a very particular brand of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the
things that shaped his worldview. And I was very interested in, you know, his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so
¶ Any faith in the new leader of Syria to bring about positive change?
I contacted one of these academics he brought in who happened to be the good friend of mine, who was in the Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know, I like to write a book on him. Can I meet with Charlasad? And that's how it all started, and a couple of years later, in two thousand and four, came into being.
He's done this with a few Americans over the years, like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had that he does want to reach out to the Western side.
Yeah, yeah, and so timing, Yeah, when you reached out to me in two thousand and four through his ambassador to the United States, he was also a friend of mine. It was not a coincidence at that time because it was right after the US led invasion of Iraq and Syria was slowly turning into a target, not slowly, actually
quickly turning into a target. Whereas before the invasion, right after nine to eleven, American officials were saying Syria was helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation on al Kaeda. After two thousand and three, now Syria was costing American lives because they were allowing Jahadas to go through their country and into Iraq, which caused problems for the US
and its allies. And so, you know, I was very interested in that transition, but he was interested in portraying a more positive image just when Syrian US relations, I think were deteriorating quite a bit.
So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith do you have in this new leader? You know, to go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment, right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country, insurgents usually have a tough time governing.
That is the question, isn't it? That is the one hundred thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time. I ask other people who know the president much more intimately than the new president, much more intimately than I do, and I still get different responses. Because we really don't know. As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is a trying process. It's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really, you know, rule in a way that is different from
the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come
¶ Syria has been helping with counter terrorist operations
to power, those that help them come to power want dividends. They want you know, they want positions in the in the government. They have a certain way of looking at things, especially if they come from.
S superpowers, what believe they should get a little little extra something as.
Well all the time. Yeah, they want not just a little, they want a lot on everything. That So Ahma Shadda, the new president. You know, on the one hand, the Israelis quite frankly, they're skeptical and after October seven, twenty twenty three, and this mcpunker mentality that they have right now,
they're want to air in the side of caution. And most of the Israelis I've talked to in the military and politically, you know, they see that Ahma Shada's turn toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive government is more a tactical maneuver than something that represents a true change, and that he's going to revert to his Jahada's roots at some point. And yet others I've talked to that know him actually personally.
One NGO in London knew him for ten years and they are convinced he is pragmatic, he has changed, you know. They he's going to be visiting Washington a week from today and meeting with Trump and they'll probably serial will
¶ Syria likely on the way to being a sectarian majoritarian state
sign on to the Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed to be a big deal. But they've been helping in terms of intelligence cooperation with the US and tracking down Okada and ISIS operat Is when he was an indlab for the last decade. Now, he did that because he wanted to clear out and he helped clear out any any opposition or a competition.
And I was just going to say, this is a classic case. The enemy of my enemy is my ouse exactly exactly.
But we've had this relationship with him for a while that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it could be molded, and it couldn't way, so to speak, in a way their population stability than Okay.
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to one. Yeah. Right, We've had the same debate about air to one now for almost twenty years. No, he can be dealt with. No, he's you know, at the end of the day, he's still Muslim brotherhood, right Like, there's this and yet you know Israel at times doesn't want to deal with them. But he's a necessary you know, he's also the head of a country that's a member of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would you
characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism of Erdiwan? Like, is he is at the same type of unsureness about where their real biases lie.
Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction, particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni Islam, are going to dominate things in Syria.
If the actually does this mean he's going to get a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh the entire Oh yeah, as.
He did as they did during the opposition times. And well, you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This reminds me nineteen fifties, when you're talking about history in the Middle East. There was a wonderful political science term
¶ Which Middle East country has the best shot at trying democracy?
that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys because they support US interests with military, political aid to plays.
It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they were spading democrats.
Yeah, and we thought they would transition, right, that they would transition to democracy. But yeah, oh wow, they live power. They want to stay in power. And this is how we got with the Shavaran as well, you know, all these other guys. So, you know, I see this playbook again happening with Syria. We're going to be acting in
our strategic interests as well as Israel. We want to keep Iran out, we want to keep the Russians at bay in Syria and hope that it just doesn't implode into another civil war.
So can Syria become a democracy pledgling democracy all our raq?
Can it?
Sure?
Absolutely? They all can become democracies under certain circumstances. It's like, well, those circumstances ever arrive, and not just the you know,
¶ Iran's weakness makes Kurdistan more possible
the larger ones, big ones, but in terms of literacy, literacy rates, in terms of civil society, all of these things that happen, in terms of economic output and economic opportunity, all these things have to happen before we get to the big questions of you know, who can vote and how many people get to vote, So you know it can happen. But you know, ninety percent of the country is in the poverty rate. The country has been dealing
with fifteen years of withering international sanctions. It's a population that's highly fragmented and militarized, with independent militias, with drug mafias, with a rapacious warlords roaming around that have more power than the national army. And you have these sectarian fortresses which were created with the breakdown of the state during
the serians of a war. They you know, you naturally retreat into your sectarian fortress and you look at the other sex as a heathen scum that must be eliminated from the world. And so how do you piece all that together? And it's it's going to take a long time,
¶ Iranian ayatollahs won't be able hold power when Khamenei dies
a lot of patients. It may have to go through various iterations of who is in power, and hopefully not another all out of civil war.
So the what is I mean, what country has a shot at trying democracy next after Iraq? And why are you surprised that Iraq is still sort of a democracy.
Sort of being the operative No.
I mean it's not not a democracy. You know, it's not Egypt.
You know what are we a democracy?
You know?
We got electoral college? You know something?
I mean, do the people have an advanced to change the government in this country? And I still say the answers.
Yes, yeah. And so in Iraq. One of the problems, and this may be the future of Syria is you have the Kurdish Autonomous Zone in the north.
I want to bring up the Kurds in a minute here, Yeah.
Which is virtually an independent country and actually doing much better than the rest of them.
I don't know why we don't support a Kurdistan. I mean, I know why we don't because Turkeys.
¶ Iran's government is teetering, and their proxies are weak
Turkey, Walt and Iran Walton, Iraq Walton.
I you know, all those countries don't want it. But you know, isn't the isn't the exposure of Iran at being a paper tiger make the idea of a cur to stand more possible.
I think so in the sense that they won't cause as much trouble in a rock. And that goes for what you were saying earlier, the possibility of Rock becoming more of a democracy. I think Iran's being exposed and being severely weakened has helped or increase the possibility of a Rock becoming a functioning democracy, has increased the possibility of Lebanon becoming a functional democracy, and maybe maybe Syria,
you know, down the road. But you know, at this point, you know, I have a low bar of successors.
How any Middle East expert is it going to ever be too?
Sadly? I just want stability and uh, you know, benevolent governance, uh in these countries.
Well, it's interesting. I have a colleague who just came back from Iran, spent about two weeks here doing some reporting, touching base with some sources again, and he came back pretty convinced that the Iatolas are not going to be able to hold power when this one dies. That is that this is the next big crisis in the Middle East.
Is going to be Iranian instability and that it's sort of the It is, on one hand, something we've been wanting right as a policy outcome, and yet are we really ready for it?
What say you, Yeah, be careful what you want right, right,
¶ Iran would be an economic power if they became a western democracy
and careful what you wish for. I guess that's one of the reasons why you know, NBS in Saudi Arabia wants that security pack so desperate, as well as access to nuclear technology because of that anticipation of instability perhaps in the future in Iran, and what might what might take over in Iran if the iotolas fall? You know, will it becomes Sometimes when the boogeyman falls, it's not necessarily what we want comes into power, something even perhaps worse.
Well, we saw that in Egypt.
We saw that in Egypt. Yeah, suddenly they're.
Like, well, wait a minute, we'd like that military dictatorship back.
Please. Yeah. Democracy is great as long as they elect the person we like, right, And but Iran I agree with that. I agree with your colleagues observation. I think Iran is on the precipice. You know that this was.
¶ Israel is at the apex of military power in the region
A really it's really the unpopularity of the of the iotolas are huge, the distrust, and then the fact that they so easily folded, right there was just there's no longer. I mean, yes, they're still brutalizing opposition, domestic opposition, they're still trying to be an authoritarian state, but they've certainly there's not a lot of fear anymore of the Iotolas. Yeah.
And it's not so they folded. It's not so much that they were beaten, they were obliterated.
Yeah.
You know, despite all of this, you know, supposed deterrence between Israel and Iran, and then Israel goes and takes out his belah and the most and most unique way uh. And then a side falls and the only viable and then Hamas of course is terribly weaken the only viable you know, proxy militias, the Huthis now and Yemen. But Iran is weakened their image, I think even more importantly, their image has just gone down the tubes with regional powers uh. And I think we can see a realignment
of this. But what will happen in Iran. Iran has always been reviewed as the prize, along as already Arabia and the Gulf, So there are gonna be a lot of eyes the prize.
I mean I look at it as if Iran ever decides to be a Western democracy, watch out. They're going to be an economic powerhouse.
Oh absolutely, And I mean they got the largest natural gas reserves in the world, large oil reserves, and they have the minerals if they can just get their act together. Of course, we could say it about Venezuela, we could say it about you know, you didn't even say it about Syria, you know. I mean, Syrians for years have always told me we'd be much better allies than the Israelis. Would you know, we would, We wouldn't undercut you as much as the Israelis have done, and I'm sure the
Iranians would would try to do it after all. I mean, it's a you know, far coo. It's Arabic script is an Indo European language, you know, and they have this past that aligns with the West in some ways. So what do you.
Make of the of this, of this idea that the Middle East is essentially now the rules are being written by the Israelis and the Gulf States.
Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I think Israel is at its at its apex of power in the region.
It's funny apex of military power, but at a nator in influence, right.
I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because military power speaks a great deal on that part of the world, and they are isolated internationally. But how long does diplomatic isolation last when you need them, you know, when they when they are on your strategic side, and that goes out, that goes out the window. So I don't I don't think the Israelis ever really worry about that too much. They're going to do what they want to do. They want, They're going to do what they
feel is is in their strategic objectives. And they have done that. I mean, look at this, Chuck, I mean that they bomb Cutter.
I think it's remarkable. You know, look, it's really frustrating to me because you know, look, if they had the way they managed, the way they did the war in Gaza versus the way they did Hesbelah, it's like night and day, right, it was the you know, you could tell, as I said, bbe let idf do its thing with Iran and with with Hesbela. They micro managed all things Gaza through the lens of domestic politics, which is why
¶ The academic case for the Saudis being a partner
that's turned into an utter nightmare.
Right, No, I agree. I mean they strategically took out his blow in a very phase step way, very strategic way, brilliant way, in the same.
Thing the way that we had come to be exactly that many admire the Israelis about like they did with Munich. They treated Hesbelah like they did the Munich terrorists, you know.
Yeah, exactly, and these the bulldozer in Gaza and.
Right, which is why they have this weird moment where they have maximized military very power. Yeah, but problems with you know that they're pretty isolated in the in the world. Yeah.
Again, they bomb Cutter, and no Arab countries that are at peace with Israel break relations with it, you know, not even Cuting.
You're right, it's astonishing. It was so brazyishing moment.
It's an amazing moment. And and talks about how those shifts have occurred in the region uh and uh and the and the importance of the Gulf state's intelligence cooperation economic cooperation that they've had with zur Reel for for years prior to you know, some of them establishing relations. So this is this is absolutely a sea change for me, and I see Syria coming on board if this current uh UH government stays in power and follows along the
¶ Can the Saudis and Iranians co-exist if Iran moderates?
line they're doing at least signing a security arrangement with Israel, and then once society has crossed the line, which they were they were gonna do, probably if Oxtober seventh didn't happen, which is one of the reasons, as you know, the did October seven.
No, it was the you know, it was interesting. It was you know the way Washington works, you know, in the sort of everything is a deal. You know, the Saudis were going to give Biden this. Yeah, this was going to be Biden's like they weren't going to hold you know, the Trump people were pressuring them to to basically wait until Trump was there to add Saudi to the Abraham Accords. And they were gonna because the Saudi's weren't.
They're not stupid. They want to play bipartisan American politics here. They want everybody because they frankly knew, unlike Bebe, the Saudis knew they had a problem in America's left and that they were better off trying to appease the American left rather than fight it. BB wants to fight it rather than a peace. But I'll but we could set that aside. And October seventh obviously made that impossible. But where talk to my friends that are going to be
listening to this and say, I can't stomach MBS. Why should we help him? What say, give me the give me the academic view of why we've why they're a
¶ How did baseball give you extra perspective on the middle east
necessary partner.
Oh, he's the only game in town right now for a very important strategic country. And and you know, I don't at all like some of the things he's on, especially to you know, Kashoji in assassinating and dismembering him, some of these things. But you know, I'm more of a realist to understand that. You know, tomorrow is a different day, and the Saudi is An NBS may be very much needed. You know now that now that you know Iraan is perhaps weaken We always thought of them
at the Saudis as a counterway to Iran. But we have to see what's going to happen with Iran. It'll be interesting in the future. This will be interesting if ten fifteen years from now, Iran does get rid of the Ietolas, does stabilize, does become this this potential economic power is you know, much like Germany in mainland Europe. You know, what will happen with the Saudi relationship and so forth? Can the two mutually coexist with US interests? Right?
You could see three economic powers in the Middle East Israel, a democratic Iran and this sort of religious monarchy in the golf right with the Saudi's and they are they going to be alliances or are they going to be competitors? Right?
Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that will be interesting to see and so many, so much more history will occur before we can even answer that question.
So let's move backwards about your baseball career and how you you know, tell me how you fused it? You know, what is it? What are the lessons? You know. I'm a huge advocate of sports in general, youth sports. It teaches human interaction, it teaches there's so many lessons from team sports. In particular. I think football is ideally the most incredible team sport to deliver because eleven people have to do their job for success. In baseball, everybody has
¶ Would modern sports medicine have saved your career?
to do their job. There's a little bit of individual talent, right, you know that you can, but ultimately you don't win with that, you could be the greatest player in the world head Wlliams. But if you don't have enough good baseball players around you, you're not gonna win a World Series. So you know how when somebody says the lessons of baseball helped me become a better give me better perspective about the Middle East? You answer this question half.
Because I failed so many times in baseball, I mean, as you and.
Still in the Middle East. Is a lot of failure, A lot of failure.
I mean failure is at the core of sports. I mean, you know, what do you have to hit to reach the Hall of Fame in Major League Baseball?
You only have to fail seven out of ten.
Times, exactly, And so you have to keep coming back. As a pitcher. Of course, I was a hitter as well early on, but in professional baseball was a pitcher. And you know, one inning you give up a home run. The next inning, you know you have a chance to rectify the situation or the next game, and so you
constantly fail. And I played basketball and tennis and all that in football when I was young, and you you were constantly tested, and you develop this resiliency which Sanjay Gupta I read the other day says resiliency is like strength training for the brain, you know, and it helps you get through personal traumas, it helps you get through failures later in life. And as I've become a conflict resolution person involved in high helvem negotiations and arabisareeli stuff, steering,
civil war. You fail all the time, I mean, but you have to learn from it, and you have to have that resiliency, that persistence, perseverance to get through it and try again, and try again and try again. Now you don't want to make you know, Einstein's theory of insanity correct, but you you, you know, learn from it and adjust. And sometimes things just out of out of your control, ruins everything and brings you back to ground zero. And that's what happens in sports as well. And you
just have to have that resiliency. And so, you know, one of my mantras is keep trying, don't know, eliminate
¶ The motion for pitching is not meant for human anatomy
yourself and keep trying. And that I had to think that's what I got from baseball and sports in general.
When you you know, do you look back on your injury and think, boy, if it happened today, you know, the technology would have given me another chance.
Jock, you be interviewing the lead commentator of the World Series right now, the lead analyst after a twenty year, brilliant Hall of Fame career at the injury.
Now that's the what if in your head? How do you not think about that?
What if? Yeah?
I'm all the technological advancements. I mean, you know, Sadi Kofax's career ends. You know, show has already had two Tommy Jones, Yeah, I think, right, you know, it's it's remarkable, right, like Sadi Kofex might have had another five great years.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a rotator cuff injury and rotator cuff surgery by Frank Job, but the Dodgers didn't really perfect itself for another five ten years. Yeah, I mean, I really don't think that because I've had a fulfilling, you know, career in many ways more fulfilling, and I have a wonderful wife and family and so forth, so you know, all those If I become a major league player, that wouldn't have happened and wouldn't met these one of the people. But I don't really think of that.
But but you know, sometimes, you know, I think I would have made a lot more money, that's for sure being a major league pitcher. But but drafting pictures is the worst investment in all of sports. That's why you got a draft about ten or fifteen of them. Hopefully
¶ Throwing sidearm is much less damaging for your arm
one gets through because of all the injuries, because everything you do physiologically picture is wrong against normal you know, physiology.
Well, it's funny you say that I got you know, I think I told you off came raight.
I was.
The Dodgers were the team of my youth, so I used to just I know a lot of the history of the Dodgers in general, and any any individual player that sort of had made a name for themselves. I always have some curiosity about and the relief pitcher Marshall, who I believe is the first ever release pitcher to
win this I young. He spent the last twenty years of his like obsessed with changing the motion of pictures for the very thing you just said said, like the way that we've taught pitching is actually asking the arm to do something it shouldn't be doing, and that if you change the motion, you could actually limit injuries. And I believe his method did produce one major leaguer who got into the majors. But given when you came up it was sort of tail end of Marshall's career there.
Did you ever follow that that whole? Like, oh, ire the case he had?
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I was. I was just thinking about this yesterday when I was talking to someone. If I had to change something with my motion while I was in college and then drafted in the pros, it would be throwing more side arm. I was a straight overhand pitcher, and straight overhand you throw the more pressure.
Oh my goodness, it's right on your shoulder, like this kid at the Blue Jays just now. I just heard it, right, this kid with the Blue Jays, you savage, And don't you watch him throw and think, yeah, buddy, in about two years, you're going to have soldiers.
It's going to happen, and they're all throwing so hard and putting so much stress on their their flexer ligaments and their forearm that they're all getting Tommy John surgery. I mean, as you said, Otani had too. It's like everyone has one. They're having them now in high school and college. It's like, you know, you know, it's something
¶ The Braves legendary pitching lineup
that has to happen before well isn't it.
You Now, rarely will an MLB team draft a high school pitcher anymore. They almost want the college level. Get your Tommy John out, Get LSU to pay for the Tommy John right, Get cal State Fullerton to pay the Tommy John, you know that sort of thing, and then we'll.
Off, you know, and come back for twenty three or you know, something like that. And it's so much stress on the body in the arm. But throwing side arm. If I had to go back, I do that because I did throw a sidearm every now and then just to cross up the hitter. I crossed up my catcher as well. But yeah, it was effective, and I threw actually even harder. I mean I had a low nineties, high eighties fastball, you know, peaked at ninety five, which
in those days actually meant something. Can you believe change ups today are ninety miles an hour change The whole goal of.
A changeup is what it has to be ten miles less than fastball exactly right. So if you're throwing a hundred, then yeah, right.
That's just unfathomable to me. And sliders at ninety miles an hours, I don't know how these hitters are doing it how they can hit these things.
But I know there's this point where you wonder when does the ligament, just when does the body? We have reached the peak performance of the body.
Yeah, And I think, you know, I think there's going to be a trend. This is getting so it's a pandemic of Tommy John surgery. I think there's going to be a trend to go back to the great Maddis Maddox type of pitching. You know, high eighties, maybe low
¶ David wishes he had at least one year in the majors
nineties at best, movement on the ball, placement, pitch longer. I mean we were talking off camera with Jim Palmer and right Bob Gibson news guy. They for three hundred innings year after year, twenty complete games.
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¶ Nolan Ryan's missing flexor tendon was his superpower
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So I.
I love Fernando. Fernando was you know, I was ten when he came up, right like that was peak, you know, and he was so much fun that World Series in eighty one and following his career and you look at his year stats and it was always like I always thought he was. I always thought he belonged to the Hall of Fame before everything else he did. And when you look at his eight year sort of his eight year peak, Nope, he always threw three hundred innings.
You know.
The joke was Tommy, you know, ruined his career by leaving him into always way too long and that he that he basically his eight years was the equivalent of what would be a seventeen year career today per number of innings you pitch.
Exactly, exactly. Remember the Braves, you know, when they had Smolds and Maddocks.
And Glavin Gavin, Yeah, they all.
Pitched, you know, every four days. They pitched long, you know, deep into the game. And analytics have, in my mind, screw things up with that regard. And you know, you can't face a batter more than two times or the third time, they're going to catch on to you. But this is what pitching is all about, if you have enough pitches and and uh yeah, Maddox.
I love those stories of Maddox, you know, and hear stories and he says, yeah, I let this guy see this pitch because I know I'm facing him in the playoffs and he's gonna think I'm gonna throw it again. And I'm never going to do like Maddox was always game planning on that bat. The next at bat when he was facing the current batter, I'm going to make him pop this one up. And sure enough he could do that. Like that's just that's pitching. That's that's strac.
Actually thinking, actually thinking on the mound, you know. And and maybe that's why I'm into academia, Chuck.
¶ Teams run the risk of ending pitchers careers early to win a title
They always thought think can you imagine do they having an earpiece, oh where somebody's telling you what pitch to throat?
That would be insulting to me, you know, I call the game that I think is it? Shirt ser you mentioned him searcher actually surets his own game. Don't ever get me one of these things, you know.
And now Max is the last Max. It feels like we're about to see the end of the last era of sort of the twentieth century style of pitching. We're moving to this, right. Suger was always a throw back. You know. He never wanted to go less than seven, right, He always wanted to keep going. Your Verlanders, your your Surgers, your Kershaws, and here they are. They're all basically probably. I kind of think Max, I want him to retire.
Now he gets to say he pitched the last gave me pitch was an old series, but it's hard to walk away, right, Like, how often did you wish you had one more year?
I wish I wish I had I wish I had one year in the majors. I mean, as you know, I flamed out the miners. I wish I would have stayed healthy enough to God, because I went up against these guys in spring training and batting practice, and and you knew you.
Had your stuff. It was just the injury that never gave me the shot I help.
So, you know, I mean lots of ifs and what ifs, and sure I think I had the basic stuff. That's why I was drafting number one. I think and and by the Dodgers. So I like to think, I you know, if not.
They were always a little bit better at identifying young pitchers. I mean that was their thing. That's what they did.
That's what they did. But you still got to get a bunch of them because you just never know when the body's going to give out, and it will give out unless you're Clemens or Nolan Ryan, who has to be bionical I read.
Is it Nolan Ryan that doesn't have the the the tendon that would snap or like he was basically literally
¶ Why is Ohtani so unusual, why haven't pitchers been able to hit?
a gift from God type of.
I know, I know, elbow it's the key. You know, if you want your kid to become a pitcher, take out take out the flexor tendon or something like that, like.
Don't even have it. It turns out it's an impediment.
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, but look at his legs, you know, Nolan Ryan and Tom c they're huge, and he got a lot of his power. It got low and pushed off and that's what a lot of pictures it.
Certainly it looks like he's built that way. Yeah, exactly, He's built bottom up. And if you told me, if I told you, he never It's interesting, by the way, a guy like Max Scherzer's never had a Tommy John and neither's Kershaw Right, what does it tell you if you've never had one these.
Days that if he if you pitch the right way, if you don't worry about throwing your legs, now use your legs, use your body. And there's all sorts of mechanics now to align your body. There's so much more technology. Perhaps when I was playing, if they had that technology, they would have aligned my body, my motion more. I put less stress on the elbow shoulder for me. So you know they can do these things. But man, if you're throwing one hundred miles an hour, your arm is
going to give out. You just cannot take that type of pressure. And the thing is, you know, hitters are they catch up, they're hitting these balls. And I've lewis how many teams your favorite teams? And a guy Jamie Moyer, you know who's forty He pitched forever eighty two miles an hour, eighty five miles an hour, and he pitches a shout out because hitters aren't used to that type of thing, you know, they're not used to eighty eighty with with motion and with the motion in the ball,
and with targeting, you know, target to pitching. So it's I think think there's room for both, and I think I agree with you. I think we're going to trend sort of in another direction. I hope, I hope.
Well, it was exciting to see Amamoto throw a complete game. You're like, hey, that used to be a big that used to not be as big of a deal. A complete game of the World Series.
¶ Could you see people in the Middle East getting into baseball?
It must be a different Yamamoto, you know, at some point. But and then it comes back the day after and throws you know, three innings, you know, after he throws a cop. I mean, it's unbelievable, and uh, you know, I hope his arm is okay. You know, I'm sure, having invested gazillion dollars in him, they're not going to ruin him.
But I'm sorry as a as a Nats fan who watched the team make the decision not to use their young star pitcher in a run to the playoffs, and then they decided to over use them in their eventual run to the World Series. They you know, the price of a world I mean, Steven Strasburg never recovered from that overuse.
That's true. That's true.
I mean it ended his career. Now, the question is as a franchise, the ultimate prize is winning the World Championship. Is it worth it?
Would you take that? Is that? Is that?
Is that a well they did, that's the disc Basically, the Nats made.
That worth it. As a Gnats fan, are you is that worth it?
It's a great question. I'm glad to have had. I I tell this to my son because he's so depressed about the state of the Nats and it's an ownership group that doesn't look like they want to keep up with the Joneses or the Guggenheims, et cetera.
Right, right, But.
I tell him, you know what's what makes fandom fantastic because you experience a low for so long that when you get the taste of the high, it's so much it tastes so much better.
Well, you're talking to as I said before, I grew up in Baltimore, a lifelong Orioles fan. We haven't won the World Series since eighty three. If we had an opportunity, if we were in the World Series this year, throw caution lit win, throw right the top pictures every every inning I don't care, you know, as you know, and I'm a pitcher, I realized what could happen with overuse?
You know, So let me ask the Otani question to you, because I'm sure you get a version of it, But let me ask it this way. Why is this so unusual? I why why haven't more pitchers been more successful hitters in the past.
Yeah, well, I think I think you're going to see this. And one of the things that most people don't realize is that major league pitchers, almost all of them, I would say, were really great hitters.
In little they were probably the best team in their little league. But they played every pity if they weren't pitching, they were playing shortstop.
Right my high school team, I was the best hitter. I was the best pitcher in college. It happens. But in college you start getting weeded out and you get into specialization. I remember, even when I was playing in the minor leagues, only the Cincinnati Reds, even in the minor low War leagues, allow pitchers to hit. But otherwise you're you know, you're DH four, and you never practice, you never take hitting practice, and so just like anything,
you daturally skill. And so the specialization of it, but I did in a little league game. I did pitch a complete game, six inning shutout and hit a home run in the game. So and it was a legitimate home run, not a little league Yeah, you get a show exactly, but I do.
¶ Middle East would need a star from that region to rise in MLB
It was always one of those I never understood why more pitchers couldn't take batting practice on their off days.
Yeah, I know it. I don't know. Maybe the Union got together and this is this is conspiracy theory talk, and they said they want these older guys who can want jobs.
It's even conspiracy theory. No, no, no, no, The DH is more jobs.
He Aaron, Tommy Davis. You know, these these older guys that can't play in the field, and and they want more offense. I mean that's the that's the key, you know, they want more runs, they want more offense. It was a business decision. And all the National League, of course, is designated hit her and I missed this the strategy of the picture hitting and all of that sort of thing. And but and there were some good there were some good pictures some you know who who hit as well.
¶ Islamophobia exists on both sides of the isle
So I'm miss same.
So could you know there's there's a team Israel in the world Baseball Classic. But baseball's never really taken in the Middle East. There is some cricket. Could you ever imagine being able to get more people interested in baseball in the Middle East.
I think I'd like to get more people interested in baseball in the United States.
With first, well, I know my son is My son tells me this all the time.
He goes.
You know, I'm the only one of my friends that
¶ Travel helps to cure phobias
actually follows baseball like they're Nats fans, but they weren't really Like he's now at school in Dallas, and the first thing he did was he wanted to go check out a Rangers game. He'd never been. And he had the hardest time convincing somebody to go with them to a baseball game.
Because it's it's long, it's you know, to some that it's boring, there's not as much action. There's a lot more thought into it. I mean, you know, I take the George Will you know view.
Toward I do too, Yeah, Wills my North Star base I.
Think about every pitch where the fielders are, and so it's a lot of fun in my mind. But we're baseball aholics, you know. But for this generation and the recent generations you know, they want more action, more scoring, which is why baseball, you know, went to the home run and steroids and looked the other way and all this stuff to get more runs on the board. But we'll take in the Middle East, I don't know, I mean, the Saudi's play it. But that's a bunch of a
Ramco kids. You know that that's all right.
It is cricket close enough that you could use it as a gateway or not.
No, it's a very different game. And people look at the history of baseball and they think it comes from cricket. It really doesn't. It comes from rounders, which is much more like baseball. But I don't think I can't even understand cricket, and cricketers can't understand baseball either.
¶ Islamophobia is a harder barrier to break than people realize
But I've tried to. I've like, you know, you know, sometimes you're just traveling overseas and you're stuck in a hotel and there's nothing to watch other than either a rugby match or a cricket match. So you know, I would sit there and try to figure it out, and you're just like, well, you know, you know.
While you make an interesting point, show, maybe in the Middle East and elsewhere, maybe baseball has more of a chance because their favorite sports, you know, soccer or football, uh and cricket. You know, they're they're long soccer and.
They're low scoring. So maybe right, and it is about strategy that you know, in some ways the mentality of sports, especially in sort of Southeast Asia with cricket and soccer, and at least with cricket and soccer. I mean, you're right. I mean maybe we're stumbling onto something and that they enjoy the patience of the success.
Yeah, we just we just need baseball. I mean, obviously it's it's very popular in Latin America and East Asia. We just need baseball to enter into Europe and the and the Middle East and do what the NFL I think has been doing. You know, we of course we hold games in Mexico and and uh and have exhibitions in East Asia and so forth, or actually had some
regular season games in Japan this this past year. So you know, I think one of the things, one of the things which changes everyone's perception in the particular region world out of sport United States, if someone from that region becomes a star and it becomes a guiding light like a show Antani or you know, earlier Japanese players and Korean players. We just need some some Middle East you know.
We almost had it in you Darvish, Yeah, Japanese, Iranian.
Yeah, exactly exactly. So you know, if we get one of those these these you know, lightning rods that can that can act as a uh, you know, a form of attraction to your day, and and then you start to get youth baseball and stuff like that. And it may take a generation, but that's what it'll take.
Let me get let me get you out of here. On the issue of Islamophobia, Okay, because as somebody who spent so much time in the Middle East, in the Arab world in general, and obviously there's you know, not all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims or Arabs and and and so for it. But Islam a phobia is one of those phobias that is like anti Semitism. It has it's on the left and the right. It can be a type of unifier that's not a healthy thing for a democracy.
You know.
Just tell me about your experience of sort of learning the culture that sort of got rid of or didn't allow a phobia to take to take in you.
Yeah, I think it's because of travel. And this is why I'm such a big advocate of travel abroad in college, just to go places and not to an English language place. See they were in a language. Go someplace that makes you feel uncomfortable, Go someplace where you don't know the culture or learn the language. Immerse yourself, and that's when you really start to understand that these people, even though they follow in other religion and have many different habits
and customs, they're like you in many different ways. They want many of the same things. And I bring students, brought groups over to the Middle East, and that's what they find out when they really interact with people and not just stay in the five star resort hotel. They go around to the rural areas they need people. They spend you know, an evening or even overnight at some house, and they learn about their lives. And that is the
¶ Dodgers to Damascus is more of a middle east book than baseball
best way to get rid of these phobias and all of this misinformation that exists regarding Islam.
I mean, look, there's we're seeing more Muslim Americans run for office over the next ten years, and you're going to see it. It is the tension that shows up in these communities and it ends up being it could be New York City, it could be Minneapolis, it could be La like it's you do in it. It's definitely a tougher barrier to break than I think I fully appreciate.
Yeah, you know, Jimmy Carter said something that was very interesting when the Batlan Barack Obama became president and a lot of this latent racism came out because he was the first African American president, and Jimmy Carter said, you know, this is a good thing. People were afraid. He said, no, this is a good We needed to come out and only then can we address that. So maybe all of
these things, more Muslims becoming involved in the community. Yes, it's causing some distress intentions and people are afraid of this, that and the other thing in Sharia law coming in, which is ridiculous. Maybe all of this has to happen. We need to get through this and have these discussions and hopefully through education and reasonable people making reasonable decisions that we can get past it. Yeah.
I remember Colin Powell when he endorsed Oboba the first time, and he said, but his answer to that is lucky he's not Muslim.
But so what if he was, yeah, yeah, exactly right.
He tried. It was like, why it doesn't If he was, it wouldn't matter, right, this is it.
And there are many Muslims that are as Muslim as I am Roman Catholic, which is not very much anymore, right, called it's.
More about how it was more about your upbringing, not your prep Now.
How you live, what type of person you are, these type of values, and you know, it just takes understanding, it takes listening, it takes empathy, and we're in short supply of all these things these days. But hopefully that'll change.
So you still hang your hat in San Antonio.
I do. I do, and probably we'll It'll be on my grave my grave site as well, because I love it here. It's a you know, big city with a small town atmosphere.
I have to say San Antonio, this San Antonio, Austin megaopolis that's developing, right, I mean, you know it feels like it's feels very similar to d C Baltimore or that's.
What Dallas Fort Worth. You know. Yeah, it's coming together, much more dominated by Austin in the last decade than.
But I feel like, you know, maybe Wemby will change things.
Right, I think so, hopefully the team stays here long enough.
Well, I know, I mean, you know the Austin desperately wants a basketball team. I think they have a better shot at getting a baseball team. Like I love the idea of San Antonio getting having football and basketball and let Austin have the baseball.
I would have a lot of San Antonio's of building their recent basketball arena where it is in the east side, to build it like about not maybe not halfway, but a little bit more closer on I thirty five North.
Well, is it that halfway between Austin and San Antonio becoming its own city?
Yeah, San Marcos and le bron Fels. It's it's as you said, it's a megalopolis. And that would have drawn from both cities, and therefore, you know, each team. I don't even care if they call it the San Antonial Austin Spurs or something. Just right, keep them here, draw from both cities, and that would have been great. But now we have a proposition going out to being elected on tomorrow that will decide whether or not the Spurs build a downtown arena, And if it doesn't pass, who knows,
they may become the Austin. Yeah.
Boy, the timing of that with Wemby on the rise, my guess is that probably helps it a couple of points. I mean, cities usually reject this stuff though they don't like taxpayer dotas.
We don't like it, especially San Antonio. But you know, Spurs are on team in town.
I'm going to put this on my list of races to watch on the proposition A and D. They're both key fantastic. Hey, Dave, this was great. I appreciate it getting to know you well.
I really enjoyed it too, Chuck, thank you.
All right, Well, people should check out the book Dodgers to Damascus. Uh, it's more of a Middle East book than it is a baseball book.
It is it is I spent a few years in baseball and the rest of my life in Middle East, So yeah, proportionally appropriate.
But you know, it's a it's a reminder that that sports is part of your education. It's you can't have a complete life in some ways, a complete education without without sports.
That's sports and having other life experiences. You know, there's competition and discomfort and failure.
So no, it's terrific. Lesson congratulations and like I said, I appreciate you exposing yourself because that's what that is, when you let somebody else write about you while you're still alive.
Yeah. Thanks, Thanks Chuck, I'm a regl in the end.
But anyway, David, great to know you.
Okay, thank you about