¶ Adam Green (Progressive Change Committee) joins The Chuck ToddCast
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get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos dot com slash chuck That is e t hos dot com slash chuck. Application times may vary and rates may vary well. As the calendar goes, it means primary season is really sort of truly going to kick off. We got a taste, we have a little taste of primary season in Texas and in Illinois with these March primaries, but they were in very much sort of like really important preseason games that counted certainly.
But now the true primary scene. It's beginning pretty much every Tuesday in May, every Tuesday in June, a couple of weeks off in July, and then every Tuesday in August. I mean basically primary season. The heart of it kicks off with May. And look, there's interesting primary divides on both sides of the aisle it is. You know, we
¶ What does it mean to be a pragmatic progressive?
can talk a lot about Thomas Massey. I think the acceptance that the president is a lame duck becomes more widespread in mainstream if his side loses that primary. So I think it's a very distinctive primary. But we've also seen on the Senate side, in particular, on the Democratic side sort of I don't know what to call the non progressive swing of the Democratic Party these days. Is it center laughed, is it pro business? Is it I think it all depends on what they want to be
called versus what their opponents might be called. You might want to say it's the pragmatic wing. Whatever you want to view it probably really says about your own subjectivity, which is why I'm sensitive and what I call it, I'm trying not to give any sort of waiting language to what it is. But we have this sort of progressive versus non progressive battles in Maine, Michigan, Iowa. That could be definitionial and to me serve as a preview of what's going to happen inside the party for twenty
twenty eight. Well, one of the people that I think maybe the person and I think has their finger on the pulse of this is my friend Adam Green. You
¶ The mission is to show economic populism can win in swing races
may know him from the p Triple C, the Progressive Change Committee, but he's a democratic strategist and certainly is pretty active and progressive politics. And I don't know whether he's going to take this as a compliment or derision. So Adam, here it comes. You're a pragmatic progressive, meaning
I do think your north star is winning. You certainly want to win with a progressive agenda, but I feel like you've got you would be you would call yourself more pragmatic, but let me let you define yourself.
Well, first, thank you. Great to be talking with you as always, And I don't take that as insult at all. And you know, when you said is the opposite of progressive pragmatic, My first thought is it's pretty pragmatic to run on a winning message, and these days, as we.
Go, find a winning message right and go be right.
And you know, I think we can go deep on this. But you mentioned some of the key races we're looking at, whether it's Grand Platin or in Maine, we're supporting Abdul alsaiat in Michigan there's a couple of good candidates there. We also endorse James tel Rico against Jasmcrockett in Texas, which I would hold out as another one that stands for this question of one, are we just an anti
Trump party or do we have a vision? And if we have a vision, are we willing to tell a story about power, name villain or just kind of have
¶ Graham Platner is a great storyteller, not a policy wonk
a mushy message about fighting for everyone, which I think motivates nobody to the polls. So let's let's go a little deeper. But I take it as a compliment, so thank you.
So look, where would you say the progressive wing of the party is right now? Do you still view it as a sendant? And you know you just name checked a couple of races, But what does success look like for the progressive agenda regardless of whether Democrats win back the House in the Senate.
Yeah, that's a great question, and you know I can define our mission for the year really in one sentence, which is show in twenty twenty six swing races, particularly swing Senate races, that bold inspiring economic populism is a winner as a priming of presential primary voters for twenty seven, twenties twenty eight. You know, we want we saw in twenty twenty a lot of people that told us as
Elizabeth Warren supporters, oh I love Elizabeth Warren. If I put anyone in the White House, that would be her, but I can't vote for her kish she can't win. Heard that too much also with Bernie and we just need to solve this division between head and heart and let people who were inspired to feel like it's okay to be inspired. So as we see gymnasiums full of five hundred and six hundred people in the main coming out in the most rural areas to see Graham Platner,
and those people are getting inspired. You know, we want future primary voters to not feel like they have to trim their own sales if they get inspired by someone like Platiner or tell Rico abdul Side.
So what do you think that's ear played Platinners? Why
¶ Several progressive candidates project strong masculine energy
does a Graham Platiner seem like it gets more traction than Elizabeth Warren with the left.
Yeah, there's multiple facets of that, you know. I actually think he's an amazing storyteller. You watch him speak, he's actually not giving a laundry list of policies. He is telling a story about power, and supporting details in his story happen to be policies. Right, He'll say, pretty much, you're getting screwed to these forces in society. The billionaires, the corporations, the rigged politics are working against you at every level. You know, I fought for our country. I'm
an oyster farmer. I know how broken this system is. I'm going to fight it. And by the way, we'll have things like medicare for all. Right, It's not I have a plan for that. Frankly, it is you're getting screwed. I have a story. And unlike Trump, who also says you're getting screwed, I have a story. He's not blaming immigrants. He's blaming billionaires, corporate power, and a rigged political system itself.
It's I think it's really that simple, you know. I think others would have a gender and race analysis, which or at least gender gender analysis in this case, which is probably fair. I do think that there's a lot of skittishness, including among some very progressive women I talk to about you know, are we ready to nominly a woman yet again? And it's really heartbreaking to hear that sometimes.
So maybe there's a comfort with all right, Well, if you have this veteran who looks the part and can tell a story and feels good, maybe it's safer to go there. You know, that's a that's a fair question.
Also, well, it is interesting that is it just a
¶ Balancing incrementalism vs. progress
coincidence that the progressives you're championing this year all or sort of what I would call strong, you know, want to give out the sense of being a strong masculine figure. I'd put ad I'll say it in that yeah column.
If you're saying he is pretty jacked, you're right, he's I think that's fair.
I didn't miss arm day. Yeah, he doesn't miss harm day very.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think again, I don't know if that's necessary, but it's certainly a plus point for a lot of people to make them feel comfortable being inspired. So it's working for us in those swing states, you know, Marie losing Campez is an interesting person. She was a swing, very swing area in Washington, rural Washington State. I don't agree with our everything, but she is also a very
¶ Mamdani is showing that you can be both progressive & pragmatic
robust champion for things like cracking down on monopolies and selling our politics. And I don't think you have to have just masculinity to appeal to working class voters. But again, starting with the premise that there were scared electability voters who felt guilty voting for the person that inspired them last time, I think twenty twenty six is a valuable opportunity to do the trick and swing state system.
I'm intrigued that you singled out MGP. I'm intrigued by her myself on the independent front a little bit. And you know, I you know, my whole obsession these days with with sort of re re defining what the center means in American politics. The center isn't an ideological place.
You know, when people describe themselves as moderate more nine times out of ten, it's in temperament less than it is in policy, meaning you know that they want you know, they they may have progressive leanings but they're an incrementalist
¶ Misconception is that "moderate" means centrist
about it. Or they may even have conservative leanings, but they're an incrementalist about it. They're like, look, we want to we want to directionally move there, but we don't want to race to that. And because it does feel like this, and I'm speaking, I'll speak for myself that sometimes you race ahead and you have to take You may think you've just left three steps forward, but actually
the backlash you end up going two steps back. You make some progress, but it looks it sometimes can be misleading that you've made progress because you leapt forward and then step back. Your baseline is better, but you haven't gotten there. Well, just can I just yeah, go ahead and push back on it. I'm curious what's your reaction to my premise about the center these days?
Yeah, first, let me wreck that's narrow point me at the end, then go back to the big one. I
¶ The progressives are demanding a rebalancing of the power dynamics
totally agree with you that we have to bring people along for the ride. I think actually Zorn Mam Donnie is doing a fantastic job in New York. I believe his approval is twenty points higher today than it was when he was sworn in, And that says to me that he's doing a go accommodation of boldness and pragmatism. Pothhole politics and aspirational politics, and he's not going too far ahead. So completely agree with the premise that we can't get ahead of ourselves. I would push back on
the current definition of those who call themselves moderate. And I got to tell you, I see most of politics
¶ Public doesn't trust the political and economic system, wants change
these days less about left versus right, and more about inside versus outside creatures of what is preceded as a broken political system and broken economic system versus those who want to shake it up. And when you wear those lenses, you see moderates often as people who want more change and think that both parties are corrupt and not actually advocate for people like them. I think that as we see you know, unaffiliated numbers rise, those are people who are just mad at the system.
And they're not centrists. This is what I reject. They may be moderate in temperament and that's why, but they are not centrist in that. Hey, they are trying to split the difference on marginal tax rates. That's not what they're advocating.
Yeah, so let's go back to Grand Platner. Would you
¶ How vulnerable are both parties to collapse at some point?
consider him temperamentally moderate?
Hm? No, okay, right, not at all.
That may moderates are attracted to him specifically because he doesn't feel like a creature of the system, right, But he's advocating really bold, power, dynamic change. So is James tallerco Maybe you think he is temperamentally moderate in how he speaks, but the stuff he's saying on the campaign trail, you know, he's asked, you know, what are you do about welfare? You know, welfare queens. He's like, you know, the real welfare queens are the corporations that don't pay
their taxes. Then he's asked, are you declaring class war? He's like, you know who's been declaring class war? Billionaires on us for the last fifty years. It's time to
¶ Both parties have collapsed reputationally, just not structurally
fight back. Is that temperamentally moderate? I don't know. But it's beautiful and it's inspiring people. So I just don't know that they want incremental change. I agree with your premise we have to bring the public along with us. Well, I think the public starts off there with anything that shows distrust of a broken economic and political system and someone who has the credibility to say I will be a change agent.
Let me throw this at you another way. Do you think do you think both major parties right now are indestructible or could what I'm watching in the UK where both major parties are on the verge of becoming minor parties the election we're hell today that both would be there'd be a new Conservative Party and a new Liberal Party. There'd be a need you know that that would rise up above the Tories and Labor. How vulnerable we have structural differences in obviously our system. How vulnerable do you
think both parties are to collapse at some point? Because I look at this right when you do the seesaw where voters are simply rejecting your agenda each time they're not advocating. They have not voted for anything since Obama twenty twelve. It's been a consistent I don't want that, So I'll try this. Well, I don't want that. I'm going to try this. At what point does this does the does one of the two parties or both collapse on the weight of not at some point? Like I
look at the Democratic Party brand this year. They're going to have a huge mid year and their brand might actually be still underwater the entire time, which is a unique thing to pull off.
Yeah, I think you're totally right to put your finger on this. You know, my opinion. Both parties have collapsed reputationally, but as you said, structurally, it's kind of propping up.
¶ Dems could have passed $12 minimum wage if they compromised
They control battle access and is while they If they didn't have battle access control, I think neither party would be a major party today.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. If we had the British system right, they would collapse. So, you know, I think that's the biggest thing allowing them to hang on. You know, there are some people I'll give a shout out to a guy named Danny Cantor who helped form the Working Families Party in New York, which had its own ballot line. Also got named Adam Rubin, who's working on proportional representation.
And I do think that as the parties do collapse, it will happen locally first where rules are changed to allow first things like rank choice voting, but then having just get walking like multi member districts where you have proportional representation one part he gets a third of the vote, they get in, there's three seats, they get one of the seats. They don't lose all three seats because they
like got a third and all three smaller elections. There's little reforms like that that are actually passing locally and in states that I think are a harbinger of what's to come. You know, one thing I've recommended to some of them is, you know, how do you get around the problem of politicians who know what the right thing to do is but want to cling onto their own
political power. And I think that we should be comfortable with with adding a time element where you know what, starting in eight years, we will have more open ballot access or proportional representation, and that way the current politicians get out of their system and they know that it's
not a culgetable being used against them. But or we can spend eight years, you know, back to pragmatic or it could spend eight years losing and just have nothing in the in the reform you know, realm pass And you know I mentioned that to some reformers and they're like, oh, we haven't thought about that before, and it's like, to me, so obvious. Actually, I'll tell you one one other story.
You know, someone in Bernie World in twenty twenty one happened to mention to me as in the side as he was pushing for a fifteen dollar minimum wage, that you know what Joe Manchin supports a twelve dollar minimum wage, and you know what, Bernie Sanders has a five year phase in where it takes three years to even get the twelve dollars. Maybe we should just agree with Joe Manchin and then have three years to worry about the
last three bucks. Right and months later, I actually asked Joe Manchin's people did they ever come to you at that And the answer was no. But to me, that would have been such a great example of just.
Saying, now, this gets it to what I talk about, which is, you know, look, you know, this feels like
¶ If Dems sweep midterms but leaders stay the same, it's bad for 2028
one of those situations. And I think the biggest problem both parties have is they have interest groups who if they don't get one hundred percent of what they want, they won't find allies that are eighty percent there like what you just described.
Yeah, I mean in this case, I don't think it was. I don't think Bernie Sanders feels pressure from anyone, let alone an individual interest group. I just think that was probably just a communications you know, it was really an aside in a conversation more than an active strategy. But to me, that's an example of oh, well, we're now what five years later we would have a twelve dollar minimum wage today if that deal had been cut, and
meanwhile we're still technically fighting about the minimum wage. So I'm just saying, to your democracy point, I think we should introduce a time element into it as a way of you know, Supreme Court justices, Okay, we'll start term limits in ten years. I hate that, but you know what,
¶ If Dems win the senate, it's not a validation of Schumer
it's better if we did ten years ago. It would have been great now. Right, So we just have to, you know, be pragmatic and you know, play a long game a little bit. Assuming we still have a country in ten years.
Well, by the way, we've done that for years whenever they've So let's say you institute term limits. Let's say you've decided he institute term limits for your governorship. Well, it doesn't the current governor. It doesn't impact them. They get two more terms and then it would impact them. Right. There's always some like this is not a new it's we've done similar things before, but we don't think about it in the terms of the way you just framed it.
Sure, we're saying the same thing, but I'm not sure it's the default. Yes, I feel like it's kind of the exemption more than the rule. Right now, and I almost say that for those who are thinking seriously about reform, we have to just add the time element to get over the structural barrier that you're putting your finger on, which is people you know or parties want to cling to their current power.
Democrats win the House in the Senate and Chuck Schumer and not came Jeffries that remain the leaders of the party for the next two years. Is that a successful midterm or not.
It's a successful midterm, but it doesn't put the Democratic Party on a path, on the best path to a successful twenty twenty eight. Our organization has called for Chuck
¶ If Dems elect the non Schumer candidates, he has to go
Schumer to step aside, and I think the pragmatic version of that is you just shouldn't run for leadership next year. And I would actually argue that now is the time to press that case. I've talked to some people in the Senate.
World they can pledge. Now is that the idea.
How to try to smoke Yeah, smoke amount now. The reason is, if you think back to the twenty twenty two election, we could have an exact repeat with Chuck Schumer of what happened with Joe Biden, where yes Democrats overperformed, but it wasn't a validation of Joe Biden, and if Democrats win the Senate, it is not a validation of Struck Schumer. But you know, if he's just handed a Senate majority and there's been no real challenge, he will
cling on. So it has to be a case that's pushed before the election in order to be successful or
¶ Schumer was a really good leader... until he wasn't
to have maximum success in my opinion. And I will say we have at least four states where credible Senate candidates have called on him to belong to Beta leader and a victory in the Illinois Senate primary where the candidate who called for that one. So I think grand Platner's another, There's another in Michigan, other Iowa, and we'll see how that plays out.
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¶ Recruiting 77 year old Janet Mills is symbolic of Schumer's strategy
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¶ Iowa is overindexed as a swing state
for life when you visit wildgrain dot com, slash podcast, or simply use the promo code podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace, so use that code. If Schumer slates win primaries and win generals, I could argue, well, he's earned it. You know, if it's the Schumer candidates, if Haley Stevens is a Senator in Michigan, and if Janet Mills is a Senator in Maine, and if Josh Turik is a Senator in Iowa, and Mary Patello and
Roy Cooper, it's pretty hard to make the case against him. Correct.
Yep, I can see.
Why if Democrats win the Senate with Mallory McMahon, Josh Walls, Graham plattin still Roy Cooper and Mary Ptello? Is that to you a message that said, hey, Democratic primary voters had a chance to speak between Schumer candidates and non Schumer candidates, and when't given a choice, they took the non Schumer candidate.
It absolutely paints that picture, and even one step higher, it sends a signal of the direction that the Democratic Party is going well. I mentioned creatures of the political inside. Who is that more than Chuck Schumer. I mean I was elated when he beat Aldamato in nineteen ninety eight. I thought he was a very good political strategist for the two thousand and two thousand and four midterms.
Give it, he deserves his gold watch. I mean I say that not trying to even be dismissive. I mean, look, he was really good at this until he wasn't. And by the way, that happens to a lot of people. Max Scherzer's fastball was amazing until it wasn't.
Yeah, I want to take nothing against his legacy in the past. He is not a wartime general. For now
¶ Michigan having El-Sayed & Slokin would show multiple ways to win
and his time again, he deserves ride out on a sunset, And sadly he has denied Janet Mills that opportunity. You know, we did a poll that showed her behind the incumbent governor, behind an oyster farmer by twenty points in the primary. Other poles show him up thirty points. It's actually a growing lead, and he has more room. He starts off even and has more room to grow against using Collins.
That says something about both the type of politics that we need to have our finger on the pulse of for twenty twenty eight and something about truction res judgment. I mean the fact that he went to a seventy seven year old governor and robbed her of her retirement and recruit her run really is emblematic of the strategy he's used. Let's name them with Ted Strickland in Ohio, dusting off an old horse and having them lose Evan buy in Indiana, Oh Shoein' No, do.
You feel this way about shared Brett.
Let's come back to a second kind of you ask, but we'll see.
Okay, you know you're right.
So we have Indiana, we have even even Russ's uh
¶ If El-Sayed loses, does that set the progressive movement back?
Russ Fengeld, who I like in Wisconsin, didn't do the trick like dusting off old war horses is not a tried and choose strategy. The reason I'm if he on Ohio is I kind of think Ohio is a is a lost cause no matter what, and if anybody's gonna win it, okay, probably Sheriff Brown. He's kind of singular, so I'm okay giving him a try. I haven't heard a stronger nomination. He's not edging out some rising star progressive that I'm aware of. Right, it's not like Cincinni mayor Why.
Are you so da so what you think there's a better shot in Iowa than it is Ohio.
Yeah, I do. Listen, I'm talking to Chuck Todd. So if you tell me I'm wrong, I actually will believe you.
Well, look, I just it's very interesting to me. I think Vivick Ramaswami is about a week of a Republican nominee for governor as Republicans could have found. I think he's so. I think that in John Houston is an appointed senator. I just I just think the Ohio tickets super weak. And I think that doesn't mean that doesn't happen. And you know, but this is it's still a light red state. It ain't a dark red state.
I appreciate it if you tell me that's true, and that that therefore that if somebody who is an unknown but has shake up the system outside of progressive credentials ran for US Senate this year, they have a chance of winning, then I'd probably you know.
Be partial to for them over as shared bren Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing against Sharon Brown. I just don't I don't believe in this strategy. The reason I'm high in Iowa is you know, in twenty was it eighteen, we won three out of four house races in Iowa. Like Iowa is I think over index as a red
¶ Are independents the best route to power in Montana & Nebraska?
state and in swing years we win, we win big. So why wouldn't we have a shot this cycle? And there's no share of you know, I guess the analogy here would be if Tom Harkin came out of retirement and wanted to run against that.
Actually, the more realistic case would be Tom vill Sack, right, like, who's more about the same generation as Shared Brown?
Yeah that's fair, Okay, So it's all hypothetical. Tom Belsak, I would never get behind U because I think he's like a corporate tool and who gives that you know, he actually screws over a little little guy Farmers and gives him the big agg I think he would actually get crushed in Iowa. But I know his reputation is that he's.
As sort of a rural democrat who at least knows how to talk speak yeah, and speak that language, or perceived to speak that language. I know, I get the I understand the criticism you're coming at on that one.
Just to complete your point, though, so Grand Planner could defeat Chuck Shoan, whose candidate if Zach Wall's winnings fifty fifth right now in Iowa, that's another demerit Michigan. We
¶ The Democratic brand is shot in most red & rural states
kind of get two bites at the apple again. We support abdul el Sayad, I think, for my purpose of liberating the minds of future presidential primary voters, a guy named m Duel who sports Medicare for All, winning Michigan in addition to a lista slock and winning Michigan sends a picture that there's multiple ways of being like totally successful in swinging areas. And then don't forget that Chuck
Schumer supported Colin Allred again in Texas. That tell Rico had to put himself out there, and eventually some things happened that ended up aligning Schumer with Tallerico against Jatsmak Crockett. But that was not his instinct. He was willing to trot off an old losing horse and do it again
even though he's younger. So I think, I think that we will have a string of Tuckshower losses in primaries and it will send something, say, a larger signal about the direction of the party being economic populist and shake up the system.
What's your Do you acknowledge the risk that if you get your wish in Michigan and he comes up short because it's a bridge too far for some folks, what does that do? Do you think that is a ding on progressivism or do you think that's going to be would you chalk it up to Islamophobia?
I do acknowledge the risk, certainly with the optics and the chatter that happens at the election. The elect the conventional wisdom that forms the best analog would be Mendela
¶ If Platner was in leadership, Dems would do better in rural states
Barnes in Wisconsin, who we supported for a US Senate race just a couple of years ago. He won the nomination, he was lieutenant governor. He ended up losing by one
point in the general election. Now there are a lot of grief and around that, with the Democratic Centurial Campaign Committee and the various super PACs pulling their money out of Wisconsin in a way that gave him no air cover in the weeks after he got the nomination, in a way that allowed Republicans that define him, that had our side dark on TV for you know, just a couple of weeks before the election before eventually catching up
the final couple weeks. And you know, in my mind, we took the ding, but it wasn't a fair or a clean example. They weren't all in for their candidate the way that they would be for an Alyssa Stockin or something like that. So I do think that if we win the nominations, I will be looking at does the infrastructure get the back of the Democratic candidate in the same way that they would expect us to get the back of Amery Patola in Alaska and an undermine her?
And if so and we lose, well that that would really be bad for our narrative. I will admit that. But if they undercut our person who's the general election nominee, you know, I think that's more a pox on their house strategically than ours.
Let's talk both Nebraska and Montana the same race to
¶ What matters more to the PCC, economic or cultural alignment?
you or are they different? How different are they Montana? Yeah? I throw Montana in there because we're likely to have a very strong independent who is going to be trying to put pressure on Democrats to take a knee the way Democrats are agreeing to take a kne in Nebraska.
Yeah, yeah, I keep hearing murmurs out of Montana, and I'm excited to learn more about it. Honestly, haven't dug into the what's the candidate's name again?
In Seth Bodner. He's a military veteran, I mean military veteran, never has been part testers on his testers endorsed him, and he just basically testers coming at it alla Nebraska that hey, the Democratic brand is just too badly damaged in Montana to succeed and you need to be You needed an independence to get believable again in Montana for for a message. That's whether it's you know, you want to call it progressive or populous, but that the Democratic
brand takes away from it. That's that's why Tester's endorsing the guy. I'm just sort of flow following sort of his logic there a I'm curious with you that I assume that means something to you if John Tester is involved, right.
It does so. First, the instigumer what we were talking about ten minutes ago, The Democratic brand generally is shot in red states.
It's more especially western Mississippi, right Like, it's really there's a lot of what i'd call prairie populous states and midwestern populous states that the Democratic brand has just been too defined by the coasts. And we can say it's fair or unfair. I'm sure some of the branding's unfair. It doesn't matter. Perception is reality, and it is it is concentrated in places where Democrats used to win North Dakota,
South Dakota, Nebraska. I mean in this century, multiple you know, boat states where both senators were Democrats.
¶ Democrats shouldn't put out reproductive rights as their banner issue
Yeah, so just a reminder, you're talking to someone who helped elect one of the last Democrats in that Dakota is Tim Johnson. Back in that time when we had four Dakota senators and all it was all prairie populism. It was all you know, appealing to people who could be wooed to out Republican. But we're willing to stand up for economic populist in his case, fighting for family farmers in a really serious way. You know, you say
defined by the coasts. I also think it's defined by weak party leadership that would rather stuck up to corporate donors than fight for little guy family farmers. And doesn't actually, you know, if Graham Plattner was Instructioner's position, my guess is the Democratic Party brand would have a chance to be more popular in the Prairie States more than it does now. So you know, lack of credit where lack of credit is due, it's not just like elite people
¶ Big Dem wins in the past came from economic, not cultural alignment
in New York and California intrunctioners from New York, so Montana is also you know. I love John Tester. I think he is over index as being a centrist, where he was right there with Elizabeth Moarn working to make sure that Larry Summers was not going to be the feed chair working for real corporate accountability for Wall Street. If he was there now, it would be for crypto.
I think he is a very salt of the earth guy who when it comes to economic issues in particular, is a vibe an economic populist and Iffre I tend to trust his judgment certainly on policies.
Let me ask you this, if economic popular when it comes to the priorities of the P triple C, not necessarily Adam Green, but if the P triple C, and you've got a guy like Tester is a great example of this, who's definitely with most of the progressive movement on the economic side of things, but isn't always there in some of the cultural stuff right, and some of that that he's in a different spot versus somebody who's maybe better on the cultural stuff but not as good
in the economics. What matters more to you, What matters more to the P Triple C.
So we are an economic populist organization who also believes that economic focusing on economics and doing it with an economic populis spent. Having a hero and a villain is the smartest political move for Democrats. But where we are different from some others in the ecosystem right now, I'll just name Adam Jennilsen, and the welcome back folks is that they actively want to recruit people who are pro life or who throw parts at the coalition under the bus.
I believe that there is that we make our achilles heel smaller on cultural issues if we are culturally aligned with working class people, which Kamala Harris was not. So she had a giant, she had an Achilles' body, right, They them ad just worked better with her because she did not have the shield of being seen as culturally in tune with working class people. I mean, there was Donald Trump at the McDonald's and she never did anything
like that, and therefore it's sanchra candidacy. So you know, you know, if you asked Bernie Sanders, what do you think about trans bathrooms, he'd probably say, I don't give
¶ Jared Golden able to vote against trans sports bill, focused on economics
a damn about the bathroom. I'm trying to raise wage to Adam.
I just had somebody who was a bit critical of Bernie's sort of what they believe that in this progressive it's for a future interview that will be on here, who was critical that Bernie underrates the reproductive right now tissue and consistently does.
So, I'm curious about what underrates means.
So it's not as important to him. He'll he'll you know that he'll support a pro life economic populace and have no problem doing it. And you know that does create tension in the reproductive rights world.
That's I would love to talk to that person and ask them, do you actually believe that Democrats should be putting out there as their banner issue reproductive rights in order to win and protect reproductive rights right now? I'm not saying our side is not popular there. I just think we have the ability to build a durable super majority if we are in tune with working class voters that we have lost to Charlotte, who's pretending to represent those people.
I mean the fact is history shows it, right. I look at FDR and I look at Obama, right, the two largest Democratic and I guess you could throw an LBJ in sixty four. You look at the three largest Democratic victories, okay, in sort of the modern era, and they were united on economics, not united on culture. I mean that has been that was true of FTRS coalition, and it's one of the criticisms that you hear sometimes, Hey, it wasn't as in tune on racial issues that it
should have been. And by the way, the answer is yes, okay, right, Barack Obama wasn't as in tune on some cultural issues right away? Sure, yes, right, But you know what Barack Obama did get sixty sentences, right, you know at LBJ gott in sixty four enough Senate seats to pass the civil right Secs in voting right sacks sixty five did
it with there. So I'm basically making your argument for you here that you need if you want, if you want a Hungarian style repudiation, you're going to have to compromise in some parts of your coalition.
So I want to be really clear on this at least what our perspective is, it is not fine people
¶ Want to see progressives assert leverage against their leadership
will who intend to throw parts of the colistion under the bus.
You're not looking for being able to poke these entities in the eye.
Correct, you said not do that? Right?
Yeah, you don't want to You're not there. You're not intentionally looking for pro life democrats for instance.
Yeah, I mean, and John Fetderman is the essence of literally like trying to put people in the eye, right, taunting, taunting people who probably voted for him. It's more. Let us give you a couple quick examples. So one I talked to a you know, really red swing state democrat last cycle who is like, I want to go and defend people's rights in Washington, DC, but the way me to get there is to focus on economics. Right. That's a political pragmatism right there.
Right.
Two examples from Congress Jared Golden and Angie Craig. Jared Golden is retiring, he won a Trump district multiple times. I don't gree with him and everything. I strongly gree with him on most economic things, unions, taxing millionaires, anti corruption.
I spent all the time with him recently. That dude is exhausted. I mean when you have to go through
¶ Proposal to lower the threshold for discharge petitions
the four campaigns he went through. I mean I think sometimes people think, acam, he's not running again. It's like what if I told you the first campaign cost eighteen million, the second was twenty six million, the third was thirty seven million, in the fourth with forty six million, And it's the largest media market, is banger, Right, You're just like, you know, I understand why he's exhausted.
Yeah. So he he had a moment. The very first vote I believe of this new Congress after twenty twenty four elections was a transsports bill. Yeah, and he had a decision. And he's not out there on cultural issues, right, that's not his thing. But he voted with other Democrats against the Trump Mike Johnson transports bill. And his rationale was, this will give Trump new powers to defund main schools.
¶ Discharge petitions would actually liberate the leadership a bit
I support main schools. Why would I want to give Trump that power. He put out a statement one time and went on with his life. He wasn't right just thump me about it. He wasn't doing ads about it. He wasn't new press conferences about it. So to me, it's about point of emphasis. He got to yes, he didn't throw that part of the colature under the bus, but he's not leading with it in rural main right anti krag at a similar example in Minnesota, a very arcane reason that she put out once and went on
with her life. So I want to say that they do that in every issue. You know, they both vote voted for kind of the Lincoln Riley Act, which is about that has not aged well for Democrats who voted for it, which is like an anti immigrant kind of thing. But I think that's a template for how Democrats can proceed in tricky environments. Try to get to yes. Try to get to yes. Sometimes you won't, at least try.
Don't come into the fight being like my starting off point is to throw the colation under the bus and then go hard on economics and earn trust by being a believable messager, being culturally aligned with working class people. And then occasionally if you vote in a way that they hear about, they forgive you more because you're culturally aligned with that on economics. That's how I would put it.
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¶ Getting rid of the filibuster would help Democrats rebuild trust
love these drinks. It is the glass of wine and you know after work. That's what this is, So no hangover and no excess calories like this. I'm a big fan, So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to Sold today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty percent off your entire order. Go to getsoul dot com and use the word toodcast. That's get sold dot com promo code podcast for thirty percent off. And yes, I too am a customer. What do you hope your progressive
candidates fight for? When you know, I believe that January is as important as November in this respect. You know who the leadership is and what the rules are, right, I mean, if you look at sort of the rule you know part of Mike Johnson's problem is that he doesn't control the rules, right, He isn't control that. He basically is a speaker in name only. He just is there to execute the trumpend and if he ever veered
¶ Both parties only like the filibuster when they're out of power
off course, they'd find somebody else, right, Like they've already proven this right. He's there because they decided they're not going to have any speaker that tries to at all worry about that institution over and above, do you want to see progressives put some shackles on leadership the way the chip Roy wing of the Republican Party has done with leadership in the House. On the right, I.
Probably wouldn't use the word shackles, but I do stare. I understand exerting leverage and making sure that we have rules that maintain progressive leverage, particularly when progresses represent the run.
So what does that look like? What give me some pragmatic ways you want to make sure leadership doesn't get to just run rough shot over the progressive.
Yeah, it's funny. During White House Correspondence weekend, I ran to someone who works for House Leadership who I don't know why they told me this, but they were like, as we have all of these discharge petitions that are getting votes on the floor, like the Epstein boat and other things that are on deck, including stock trading and stuff like that, we are thinking about how that would affect us if we're in leadership. And I'm kind of like, let the discharge petitions fly right Like.
No that personally, I'm I'm there's a group of people who would like to lower the threshold of a discharge petition instead of to eighteen, just simply fifty from each party and you've got to do it. That's would mean
¶ Getting rid of stock trading isn't as simple as it sounds
a minimum of one hundred as long as you have fifty in each party or that that force is a discharge.
You know, I hadn't heard that, you know, you know, only one hundred and fifty signatures, not to eighteen. You know, that wouldn't just be the Progressive caucus, that would be a majority. But anything like that, I mean, I would actually argue to the House leadership folks that that would liberate them in some respects where they don't have to have the fingerprints on everything that gets a vote.
Right, You're actually right, like in kind of looking at it is, oh my god, we're going to get jammed by this, this and this. It's sort of like, hey, the House is the people's house, and you know what, you are going to get all sorts of stuff that gets introduced because we're the people's house, all right, And if it's good enough, we'll let the Senate decide, and if it's got a big vote, Senate won't can't ignore it.
Yeah, very few politicians to cling on to power will believe that. M But that's the kind of thing that sure, any of those things that puts more hands more power in the hands of those who are finger on the pulse. Sounds good to me. You know, there's a question, do we try to get rid of the filbuster now? I I you know, my default will be yes, you know, especially if we have a democratic majority, Like don't like they're giving people process reasons for not delivering on your
promises or even trying to deliver. Is the kind of thing that ruins faith in both parties and turns people to independent, our moderate and hating Democrats. Right, It's the kind of thing that will make all of our candidates in twenty twenty eight or you know who win the nomination twenty twenty seven less credible if we just campaigned on something and then don't even try because we don't
have sixty votes. Right, Wait, one last thing. The filibuster also hurts Democrats in the sense of we have to cobble so many things into this wonky reconciliation bill that
¶ Spouses need to be included in stock trading ban
we actually get credit for almost none other things. The things that are super majority popular, get put in the bill on week one, while we're still debating in week fifty, and people forgot about it. You know, if you remember the Clanton years, just to go back, like I don't you'd know better than me, Like what the filibuster? How
much it was invoked then? But I remember that there were these week long sagas where he was trying to get to fifty or fifty plus one votes with Al Gore, and it was just like, I've got forty two, I've got forty three right, the gun bill, right, the gun right, and then the crime bill, the tax bill that passed by like by one vote to race axes on the rich.
It wasn't sixty votes, it was fifty one. So so there was describe ourselves of getting credit for the things we do by having only one bite at the apple. We have to cram or everything into a bill where
¶ If Dems win both houses, where should they work with Trump?
no message gets out. So for the Senate, that's why, just politically speaking, getting with the philibuster would be a game changer for Democrats, rebuilding the reservoir of trust that we should have when we try to do stuff.
What do you make of the anxiety, the sort of the Mike Lee right angling to get rid of the filibuster And can you imagine common cause a coalition of the of senators getting together going all right? Mike Lee, Ron Johnson, Rick Scott, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren. I know, Jock, you know what I mean? I consider here that that more realistic than I think, or is that still probably a little pie in this guy.
Let me ask you when he when they ask for the philibusters to be gone, what is their rationale?
What do they say, Oh, that's interesting that they shouldn't need sixty votes. I think they don't really have a good the rationalitis simply, hey, we won the election, why shouldn't we get our agenda right? Which is very similar to what we heard after twenty twenty.
Yeah, I mean if they still have that position post losing the majority, if they lose the majority.
Well that's what we all learn is that neither party ever has that position when they're out of power.
Right, So again, maybe it's the phili usher will be
¶ Dems will be elected to be a check on Trump, but need his signature
gone in four years, so we don't know who controls the set in four years. But maybe that's again inserting time back into the mix might be the way of
us study that kind of thing. But you know, in terms of agenda items, you know, our government relations entity called P Street, the Progressive alternative to K Street, has been working with a lot of Republicans and a lot of you know, quote unquote moderate Democrats on a bill to take on insider stock trading in Congress, and the Republicans will offered a very weak t version wouldn't actually
solve the problem. But that's the kind of thing where you actually have anti corruption forces on the left and right, but then when we actually look at them with the inside outside classes, it makes more sense. It's like, oh, this is an inside versus outside like literally insider trading
versus those who hate corruption our politics. These kind of issues, I think are the things that could get whether it's house side process rules or filibuster rules dismantled, if we can kind of marry the wonky process argument with anitarian, easily digestible anti corruption kind of theme.
You know, in fairness to both parties that are trying to deal with the stock trading issue. And I think some of it is serious and I think some of it is performative, right, But it's it's easy to say to get rid of it, but how you do it, it's not easy. You know, do spouses, you know, should they be involved in it? What about siblings? What about adult children? Obviously not minor children, but what about adult children? And is that really fair? To them. What did they do? Right?
You know, it is in fairness to these Now, look, you chose to become a member of Congress, so you know, welcome to you. You know, you know this is very popular. This has got to be done. So just come up with a way. I mean, you know, I guess we could have essentially a new blind trust committee where they just hire financial advisors who do nothing but manage congressional stock portfolios. You know, the second you win an election,
boom automatically. You know, this committee now oversees your stock portfolio. So yeah, but I do think this is I get the sense that details are more difficult than we fully appreciate.
Yeah, and you know, I've had many conversations about these details. Let's start with the easy stuff first. So the core of any stock proposal is you cannot own individual stocks. You can have index funds, and your fortunes can be you know, rise and fall with a stock market, but you will not benefit by going to war and Iran. You know, the critique of blind trusts is they're not really blind, like you know where holdings are going in.
So you would just basically say, look, you get to do the S and P five hundred or treasury funds. You pick something like that.
Yeah, right, and then there's super wonky stuff like oh do I have to sell my stuff? What's the tax implications? Is like, we can deal with that. There are ways that, right, there's no doubt.
If you totally divest, then you do have tax implication.
¶ Working with Trump requires abandoning the ideas you ran on
Right, but you can also like, okay, so you can tackle those over five years or you know, there's ways of addressing if that's the final concern. The spouse. Yeah, the spouse has to account. I haven't really heard kids in the mix, but spouse would be good enough. But you can't have giant loopholes where your spouse can do insider stock trating just can't be it. There's a couple of things just like that that you know. Generally, the people who push back hardest are not good government advocates
who are trying to get it right. It's people that have massive fortunes in the stock market or whose spouse has a massive fortune and they are worried about their own stuff. And again, maybe we pass it now and it kicks in in six years, and no senator, you know, any senator who runs again will know what rules are running under I'm sympathetic to the argument of my wife or my husband didn't know when I ran two years ago that they'd have to divest their whole stop.
So it's like, you know what after the next turn? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I think that's an interesting So let's spast forward to January of twenty seven. Yeah, Democrats win win both the House and the Senate. Where should Democrats work with Trump?
That's a great way framing the question. You know, he's not an anti corruption guy, but you know, whether it
¶ Dems shouldn't trim their sails in order to work with Trump
was the Tea Party back in the day or MAGA, there's a distrust of the system and anything that I think Josh Holly is oftentimes just good spokesperson for that roots out credit card companies that want to rip you off, just you know, the rigging of the rules that various monopolies want to do. Jadvance has actually been an interesting ally, at least in his Senate life, on anti monopoly issues.
Those are things where they would actually impact the cost for consumers, like in pockets affordability, but with an anti corruption and hold the bad Apple corporations accountable kind of lens that That's why I would recommend that they lean into.
Look I think this is a very precarious. It's a good problem that Democrats might have if it happens. Yeah, but you know, the question is you're going to run against Trump, and Democrats' victories will be because they're going to be a check on Trump. And that's why that this is likely to be a successful midterm right, especially why we call it the sixtion. You know, there's sort of an exhaustion and people just want to check and yet if you want to do anything, you're going to
still need his signature on bills. Right, So well, there's it's sort of like how do you walk that line when you're going to have some people like take my friend George Conway, and I say this. I admire that he is saying up front, you elect me, and my mandate is to impeach the guy. I'm not making any I'm not dancing around that issue, right most everybody else dances around it. He goes, No, I'm there, I'm running.
I got two terms. That's all I'm going to do, and this is what I'm going to do, Okay, because I think this is the best way to restore rule of law. Can we don't have to agree with his tactics. It's what he's telling voters. What I always liked is just tell the voters what deal you want to make with them, and they you know, and if they vote for you, it means they want to make that deal.
Now it's up to you to do it. But I think this is going to make for a really challenging spring of twenty seven because you're going to have these cross currents. You're going to have presidential candidates out there running hard on Trump, some of them harder than others. You're going to have and then you'll have you know, if anybody works with Trump, there might be criticism of that because it plays better. I just think that I look at what happened to Abigail s Bamberg. Right, one
¶ PCC supported Talarico over Crockett for his bold economic vision
wins with this incredible brand of moderation of above partisanship, and then she comes right in and the opening acts are very partisan. You may think it's very successful, but it's very partisan. She took a heat politically. It's recoverable. Right, It's early, and one would argue, right, the old Mario Cuomo saying is, you know you campaign in poetry and government and pros, and you know prose has come sometimes
quite cold right, and type brutal, quite harsh. Right. I just find this first three months more precarious for the party than maybe people realize. Again if everything that they hope happens happens.
Yeah. So, you know, the way you find the question before, which I think was a good question, is you know, where should they work with Trump? I think it's a little bit different from a separate question, which is what should their priority posture be, including towards Trump? Okay, I kind of feel like one step above the rare places where they will work with Trump is, you know, get caught trying to do things that are popular in bold and if you pass things in the House, and you
passings in the Senate and Trump is the problem. Now we are sending.
You've drawn a picture, yeah price, yeah.
Yeah, So I feel like that has to be the priority. If this, if the starting point is where can we work with Trump? You eradicate eighty ninety percent of the good, popular ideas that you would want to run on in the interest of going behind closed doors and trying to cut a probably bad deal with Trump. Right, if you start with we're going to get caught trying if he wants to be on the thirty side of a seventy thirty proposition. Let him do that make Republicans even less popular.
If he wants to work with us and cut a deal, we'll accept a down payment and bring the election, you know, the twenty twenty eight election, you know, into focus in terms of going for the full kahuna, like, you know, let's push for a public option. Now he'll probably stay none of that, but at least we're talking about something at challenges insurance companies that are very unpopular. Right, But if we start off with would he ever support a
public option? And you look at his donors and it's like, well, no, now we want to talk about anything but the small all of us boar things with healthcare, that makes no sense, right. You know, there's a growing movement to have publicly manufactured pharma, particularly for generic drugs, but also just like a competitor to the big pharma companies and use public muscle to do that. It's really popular when you pull it. I don't think we're gonna pass.
But you know I wouldn't fully roll out Trump's interest in something like that. You're not wrong to be thinking about it. It's like, well, maybe pass it and see what he thinks.
¶ AOC may need to run for president soon, before her "sell by" date
Yeah, that's that's the thing. Like maybe that day Pharma pisses him off and he's like, you know what, I'm gonna go right, and so maybe maybe you know, broken clock right twice, two accidental bills that are Bowlhill, he'll sign apart from the smaller down payments. But we just can't go into that moment thinking we're gonna from our sales. I honestly be shocked if even Keem, Jeffries or Schumer yeah, started with that position, because that would be.
You know, and I get that. I you know, I look at this and it's sort of like because I think it, and this to me gets at the why I'm a little skeptical of those that consider themselves presidential candidates who are dining out on the resistance messaging that's working well for now versus how much do you think
¶ Stephen Colbert could be an intriguing candidate, performance matters
resistance messaging should be leaned into going into twenty twenty eight or how much it should you know, it's like how much energy should be about the post Trump era versus putting a check on Trump right twenty six. I get it, it's a check on Trump. I think it's a bigger it's a larger debate about how much should be check on Trump versus and resistance messaging versus turning the page messaging.
Yeah, so you mentioned the UK before. I was just in the UK a couple weeks ago talking to people on the ground there, and one of the things that they put their finger on, which I think is accurate and is a potential warning to us, is Keer Starmer's only message was I'm not conservatives and there unpopular electo me. His mandate was fulfilled minute number one, and then he had nothing.
You know what you just described. You just described that Joe Biden presidency. I always thought this was Biden's biggest problem, that ultimately the one thing people voted for him to do, he accomplished on election day. Yeah, and they didn't actually want him to do much more than just eradicate that. Well yeah, and then well then you know, maybe do something. But I don't know, right, And unfortunately he didn't really campaign on a vision beyond I won't be him.
Yes, I will do something I really don't want to do, which is make the case for Joe Biden. But at least he on paper campaigned on big, big, ambitious ideas,
¶ Mamdani takes time every day to tell a story on social media
particularly because of COVID. He was the rare person who's like funding for a bunch of stuff went higher in the general than the primary, which is usually the reverse. That's true, it's because COVID happens. So at least now, I think to your point, I don't think that most people going to the polls were thinking about his build Back Better agenda. They were thinking about Trump versus not Trump. But at least he tried. Kere Stormer didn't even try.
Like his manifesto, that's what he call it, there is like do nothing. We're just not them, right, I really do worry. Like the part of the that we supported tel Rico is, you know, I like Das mccrockett over personally, she's a good you know Team Blue versus Team Red, spar you know Spark, you know Jouster, but she was
not offering an acadomic vision. Tell Rico was. And I really believe that we will do better off this election cycle if, of course we're anti Trump, but we also are trying to appeal to people's you know, working class lives. And this is the muscle memory time. We have to prove to ourselves that we can do it now because twenty twenty seven. You know it's gonna be weeks after this election that people are announcing for president, and if all we've done is train ourselves to a.
Week, it might be hours after that week. I have a feeling we will have three candidates in the race before the Friday is before all the counting is in in California. How long it always takes to do the
¶ Shawn Fain could also make a strong candidate
California accounts, right, Yeah, I imagine we'll have three active candidates. Oh yeah, that we'll use the momentum, especially if Democrats win, like they're going to want, you know, they're going to want to try to ride a financial wave. You know that that would come with it.
Interesting, So ah, you Calci fans out there, I.
Know how she yeah, but you know, we haven't.
Touched on it yet. But you know, the tension I feel with the presidential race right now is this instinct that we're living in an outsider moment and looking at our bench and liking some people on the bench, but feeling like so many of them feel.
All feels it all feels re tready, I'm not gonna you know, It's funny. My wife and I talk about this and she's like, where's you know, where's the compelling outsider? And you know, part of it is we're all so anxious to find that that even those that would have been seen as outsiders in a previous era have already started to, you know, make the run, right, have already started to make noise in their own way, whether it's Andy Basheer, Joshapiro, Alyssa Slaka, whatever, I mean, I could.
You know, I get that you may not be happy about some of those, but my point is is that there isn't like, I can't think of any candidate that I've heard floated that I'm like, well, I'm curious what
¶ If Talarico wins in Texas, it could put him on the presidential map
that's going to look like. I feel like I know already exactly. Oh, they're gonna run this way, They're gonna run this way, They're gonna run this way, and it feels familiar. It's twenty twenty. It's a twenty nineteen field all over again, just with different names.
Yeah. So I think the one exception is AOC in terms of like I think she's if.
She runs, yeah, I don't know if she like she I don't view, I don't see she doesn't seem to it seems that she's if she were running, well, I don't know. She'd be out there a little bit more. But she doesn't look like she's running to me. But maybe she doesn't have to do it. I have to lean in the way others do.
We'll see. But you know, if she ran, she still has her outside her cred I think some people would think that she's less leftable because of that, But I don't think it's arguable that she's that. She's not a creature of the political system. She's an outsider.
I subscribe to the Jonathan Roush theory, which is you do get a sell by date, like when you appear, and you need to make a move in your first ten years in the system. And she's twenty twenty eight becomes the ten year anniversary of her election in twenty eighteen, right, so you know it is about time for her to take the next step. Whatever that step is, could be Senate, could be.
President's sound of political advice. I'll run two names by you. I am not endorsing them, but I allow my mind to go there. So when is Stephen Colbert, right, somebody you know he just got you know he now is an avatar for anti media consolidation, something that I believe you might know something about, you know, trust in media.
¶ Talarico as VP to get his sea legs could be a potential route
I'm more intrigued by the Colbert idea all the time because I look, I think it's pretty clear that performance matters. Yeah, and communication skills. This is now true of every fortune five hundred company. If you don't have the leader of your company can't communicate, you're not going to be a I don't care how good you are behind the scenes, you're going to be an unsuccessful leader. Period. You have
to be able to communicate. Now, So it's a it's it's a primary skill, no longer a nice to have skill.
I completely agree, and just to side down on that. You know, when the medicalasius of the world criticize the better parts of Biden's agenda like hiving Lena Khan, bust up monopolies, and they're like, oh, so we lost the next election, so why try that again, my first thought is he didn't communicate anything he was doing. He couldn't.
¶ McMorrow positioning herself as the "goldilocks" candidate
He never campaigned on anything. I mean, I you know, to me, the Biden presidency is the presidency that didn't happen because he never sold his agenda. He never traveled the country, he never you know, because I guess he couldn't write. I mean, look, we all realized that he didn't do this. We don't know if his agenda was popular or not. He didn't even try to sell it.
Yeah, you know, back to Zran, I means Iran takes time every day to do something on social media and tell a story. Right.
Yeah, So sometimes I think he's too much on social media. But I understand. I understand why he does it. It's part of who he is. It's his brand. And if we stopped doing it, there'd be some people going, oh, you've gone mainstream. You don't need this anymore, so right, like it would be a problem.
Yeah. So Colbert is masterful at that. But you know,
¶ Being the shake up the system candidate is the way to go
he's not a Matthew mcconick. Hey, he's not just an actor. And I think that with the Colbert rapport, we actually saw a fairly.
You No, I agree, there's substance there.
I agree, right, So, yeah, I'm not endorsing, but I'm curious, and I'm willing to go there.
You know, I'm with you there, I'm Colbert curious. I'll give you that.
Colbert curious. Can we can we point that hashtag? Right now?
Look, Colbert curious? Right, yeah, and hey, he's got South Carolina. Nothing like having a little early state, small advantage, even if it's a small one.
Fascinating. Yep, good point. Yeah. The other person who I don't know personally, but I just throw out there as a hypothetical, like a Sean Fain, the UAW president, right, and somebody who you know a third of his members wrote for Trump. He is mister picket line. Again, I
¶ Talarico, Platner & El-Sayed tell a story about power
don't know him enough to be like, oh I love this guy, but on a vibes level, I could see someone like a union president being the right fit for this moment. I feel more comfortable if I knew that Elizabeth Warren would be their chiefest staff and they'd actually do the competency stuff right. But you know, again, I allow my mind to go there just because I feel like this is an outsider moment.
And we can I agree. I've been looking for, you know, one of these fired generals, fired admirals, and just trying to learn more about them. It wouldn't surprise me if one of them, you know, with somebody, and look, I don't think we just know, right, some of them sometimes you have to meet them and you're like, you don't you have to let them know, you know, you actually would make a really good candidate. Have you ever thought about it? Type of thing? Let me throw a different
¶ The current system is failing the public
question at you. That's the same idea because normally, you know, in twenty eighteen, Beto o' rourke's near victory made him a presidential candidate. Who of the twenty twenty six victors on the Democratic side, could you see who you think that their victory? Yeah? You know what it ought to translate to kicking the tires on presidential.
I think the obvious one is James Tilrico. I mean if he certainly, if he wins.
It's an eye opener. So everybody goes, oh, oh, what's that right?
Yeah, yeah, you know I would still put grand Platner there. I know that, you know they're Democrats to have opinions about that. But let's see what you can do. Let's see how he perseveres through some of the attacks. And you know, it's interesting you put it as his near victory, because if I'm arguing against myself, like the biggest reason that someone like James Telrico would not run for president is if they win and they're setting up a Senate office and they're skinning No, that's.
The irony is that Bato was able to do it because he didn't win, right, And but to me, that's a weird it's weird to well the one. So it's like Pete Boodaget, you know, same thing, right, you know, he lost d n C chair, but let's let's see it does for president.
Right. So there's the there's that political question, but I'm actually raising a separate logistical question, which.
Is, oh, I think it is hard to immediately win and then turn right around and run.
Yeah.
I think that's very difficult, and especially you know, I I sit here, I watch Wes Moore continue to pledge to serve that he's not running. He's serving four years, and yet he shows up to every early state thing. He shows up to all the You're like, I know, you think, hey, Bill Clinton got away with this, other Barack Obama got away with this. But I think we're in a different trust period. I think we're going to roll our eyes if you do the politician lie, if
¶ Preference between Steyer or Porter in California?
you get my drift meaning the politician white lie. Well, you know everybody kind of knew it was a winking and nod. Well, we're kind of tired of the wincoln and a nod politician.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
So maybe those who announced days after the election are actually the most credible.
You know.
I I Butler and Jamal Simons, you know, have a podcast focused just on the presdential race, and when I talked to them, they raised an idea of Tolerico for vice president, which I found intriguing because that would actually give him the year to get his d legs and then he oops in a year later and there's no real downside. He's not giving up.
That was kind of jd vance, you know, wins in the mid term and ends up on the ticket within two years.
Yeah, that's the tempolate, So we'll see. I kind of wish the timing was off a little bit different a little bit, but we all where we are. Well.
Look candidates that I think about on that score, and I'm curious. I'll throw them out at you. Mally McMorrow she interests me because she sort of forced her way on stage right her own viral moments. She's a good communicator. If she becomes the Goldilocks candidate, right, she's figured out how to unite this coalition. She intrigues me. Swing State Rob sand a victory there in Iowa. He's running on a different type. He's very anti corruption. It's a it's
¶ AOC raises the most money because people trust her
it's certainly it's a different you know, it's not going to fit cleanly in anybody's bucket. Yeah, but he's interesting to me potentially on that score.
They're both interesting. I like them both as people, and I hope Rob wins Mallory gets an noomation. I hope she wins. I really don't think that anything short of having a systemic critique and a willingness to kind of summon up the rage and be again the shake up the system candidate is is the way it is the way to go. You know. Rob stand has almost a technocratic way of being bipartisan an anti corruption. He could do it in part because Iowa they have read the rules.
I mean, they pretty much defanked him of power like he was the one.
So he had no choice. He had to He had to do this the way he's done it. Right. He almost has to do it forcing media attention, forcing sort of gimmicks, frankly, to to make it hard to say no to some of his anti corruption.
Yeah, and just for your listeners, and he's a state auditor. The only Democrats state wide official, and they've pretty much robbed him of his ability to audit right, So now he just has to use the bully pulpit to shine the spotlight on things that are corrupt. And that's good. I'm glad he's doing that. I don't think that that addresses you know, we have AI, we have Crypto, we have things changing in society, and we need someone who is willing to tell a story. That's why again and
come back to tell Rico, Platner Abdul. They tell a story about power in America and the forces that are rigged against everyday people in America. And they can apply that critique to healthcare or your banking, or your schools or your housing. It is one critique across issues. It's not an issue. And I just think that has to be the future if we're going to be credible and be able to speak to so many people so many parts of.
The country, Adam, and we may not agree on every single fix, but I think you're one hundred percent right that this is systemic. This is I think both parties. You know, in a perfect world, we'd get rid of both of them and get to a four party system of some form because it's failing the public. Right. It's sort of like, what would what would what would animate the American public better if they could find is I
always say the problem with the two parties. It's like imagine going into a T shirt store and finding out the two choices were extra large and extra small, right, and you're like, well, I can't find the shirt that fits me. And I think today's two political parties. I think more people would say it doesn't fit me than it does. Right. That's, you know, one of the questions we're not asking. You know, we've got a lot of people under the age of forty whose knee jerk decision
is to register as no party or independent. And we spend all this time going, okay, but if you had to choose, which side do you choose? It's the wrong question to ask these voters. It's the right question to ask these voters if you're simply trying to win an election. I get that. It's the wrong question if you're trying to represent those voters, which is here's the question. I want to know, what keeps you from red string with the party that you hold your nose and vote for
each time. That's the question we've not spent enough time asking and certainly I don't have we don't have the answers because we haven't asked them.
Those questions about huh, well put.
Man. I always learn a lot from you, mister Green. What's your favorite primary in May? What's the big thing that what you'll feel good if things in May happen? Where? Like where? Where? What's your what's your sort of current early early primary state obsession?
Yeah, my obsession is more June and in Maine. I am interested in Pennsylvania primaries. We endorsed Chris Rapp recently, who's running in a swing there. But you know, we might get involved with something. The California is also right around the corner, right.
Right, Oh, yeah, it's June. But yeah, yeah, I mean that first Tuesday in June. What's your uh, what's your preference? Styre Porter?
Wow, Chuck Todd, I thought we were finishing up. We you know, we've engaged both campaigns in recent weeks and currently our postures do what we can to facilitate a race to the top on economic populism, you know we are. We coined the phrase the Elizabeth Warren wing. She endorsed Katie Porter. We've support her many times.
She didn't endorse Katie Porter this time, did she?
I think she she did? She did?
Okay, yeah, I gotta get credit.
I got to get credit to Tom Styer. He is out there making a systemic case and talking about billionaire power. The one thing that I want people to keep in mind with him is that he should not stand for the proposition that you have to be a billionaire in order to be non bought. Right, AOC raises the most money.
That bothers that bothers you a little bit. That that's his messaging.
Yeah, I'm not not that that's his message. I do hope that he chooses his words carefully. But more I hope that people's impression is not, oh, billionaires could be unbought, but nobody else should make that case. I think that.
Yeah. I mean my concern is that's what the you know, Oh, all right, they're getting their billionaires. The let's going to get their billionaires. What about the rest of us, you know, and who don't have a billionaire looking out for us?
Yeah, we'll see. But again, AOC raises the most money of anybody in Congress, and that's because people trust her. Right now, everybody if you're exceptional by definition. Everybody can't be exceptional, right, But you know Maxwell Frost right, because are there's a lot of people that have people power behind them. That's my preferred way of being unbought. So this is my way of punting on that question and saying, I hope that they both keep.
Leaving the puts. We'll see I hear the punt, mister Green. Always a pleasure, sir. I hope you're well, you look you
And thanks for everybody