Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have all of you here today. And I am really excited to have Chip Ingram with us today. Chip is the teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, an international teaching and discipleship ministry. A pastor for more than 30 years, Chip is the author of many books, including Holy Ambition and The Invisible War. Chip and his wife, Teresa, have four grown children and 12 grandchildren and live in California. Welcome to the podcast, Chip.
Thanks, Barb. Good to be with you.
It's great to be with you and exciting because I have done some of your classes before in women's Bible studies. I did the Invisible War and that was such a wonderful class on spiritual warfare. And you wrote that book, too. So highly recommend that resource to anybody who's planning a Bible study. But I'm excited to talk about your new book today. And your new book is called I Choose Joy. So could you start out by just telling us, you know, why did you write on that topic?
Well, I'd like to say it's because I'm so filled with joy every single day. And my life is so wonderful that I wanted everyone else to experience it. But that's not the truth. About seven years ago, I was playing basketball and I didn't know I had a real acute scoliosis. But I herniated a disc. And I'd done that 10 years earlier and recovered. And all I can tell you is I'll try not to make this too long of a story.
It went from that to every treatment that you can have under the sun from PT, chiropractic, acupuncture, epidurals. And I found myself with an ice pack on every 20 minutes all day laying on my back in meetings, was still pastoring full time. It was a fairly large church, and they had good technology. So we had like four services. I had to make sure I could do the first one. Then we had like a 30-foot by 30-foot screen.
And then the rest of the messages would go on, and it was so life-size, you almost couldn't tell. I was there, but it was just really horrendous. Eventually, in 2018, I had surgery, and they started fusing my vertebraes together and putting hardware in my back. And that helped some, maybe 60%, but in pain the entire time. Then in 2021, in the middle of COVID, it tore above where they did that and below. And it was an emergency surgery. I laid on my side, couldn't get me into a hospital.
And eventually they did because I was losing all the movement in my leg. Another big surgery, long, long rehab. And little by little, you know, it was just intense pain, which it's not as intense today as it was, but it was probably toward the end of that rehab. I can vividly remember Barb.
I was sitting on the hearth. I just come in. I was just not learning to walk, but you know, I'd walk in the backyard circle after circle and I came in and sat down and my wife is very sweet very loving but really forthright and now we've had you know think of it you know we had about six years of this stuff because long before the surgery you try everything before that and she said i'm going to share something with you but i don't i don't
want to offend you i really want you to listen and i said oh yes of course i'm no no worry you know and she said do you recognize how negative you've become. And I said, Oh, no, no, no, no. And she goes, Chip, I mean, I understand. You've been in excruciating pain. You've continued to work. But you get up and you groan. Everybody we meet ask you about your back, the lens that you have. I know you're in pain. I know it makes things really challenging.
But little by little by little by little, I've been married to a very positive, upbeat, future-oriented, and you do better in public, but like all of us, you know. And it really convicted me because I realized she was right. And out of that, it just so happened that you could say that. But in the sovereignty of God, it was to speak at the Billy Graham Conference Center. And it was already lined out that I was going to speak on Philippians one. And so I was doing the preparation.
And as I did that and I begin to study Paul's life, who doesn't know whether he's going to live or die, who has received a letter from Epaphroditus saying thank you. He's chained every six hours to these Praetorian guards, and he prays with joy. He has this upward focus. He has this concern for other people when he may be executed any day. And as I studied that passage, God so spoke to me. And out of that came the whole series, I Choose Joy.
And we can talk about this. It wasn't just I studied that and I gave it and something miraculously happened. And I went into your whole podcast. I went into training. I had to renew my mind. I did very specific things to this day, still do them. I have a card that I read every morning that has certain things on it where I had to retrain my mind and my thinking to get perspective. And as I did that, it revolutionized my life and my joy in the midst of great pain.
And then I began to share that and pass it on. And it just changed. Thousands and thousands of people it was beginning to help and so pretty soon it was this can't be just a message or a video you really need to turn this into a book and so that's why we're here.
Yeah and I'm so glad you did because I do think that's something a lot of us struggle with either whether it's naturally or just because there's been so much negativity in the world but you also talk about in the book with COVID and everything all the political division it's like we're recovering from all that. And what I love about your book is you don't just say, okay, let's just write a list of 10 things
To be thankful for every day.
Even though that can be super helpful. You really talk about changing our perspective. So can you tell us a little bit about that and why that's necessary if we want to be joyful?
Well, everyone has different backgrounds. And I was with a couple of grandkids and one of them said, I love math. And the other grandkids said, well, just wait till you get older. You won't love it. But my dad was a math and science teacher, and I love math.
And as I studied that entire passage, it was literally like there was a formula emerging, an algebraic equation, if you were, because what I saw was the Apostle Paul's circumstances were bad, and then worse, and then really, really bad, and then even worse. And yet his perspective, and there was four very specific paragraphs in that first chapter, and each one, he had a very unique perspective that allowed him to be very joyful.
And so as I studied that, I remember one day sitting down and realizing, you know, okay, C is for circumstance, plus P, which is your perspective. That equals your experience. I mean, we've all known people that have horrendous, difficult things they've been through, and they have this amazing joy and attitude. We know other people that when a little thing goes wrong, they're negative, they blame everyone, life's terrible, I'm a victim, I can't believe it.
And what I realize, and you know that, all your listeners know, we have very little control over our circumstance. I mean, whether it's the weather, the economy, politics, how our children respond to us or don't respond to us, how people treat us, how people drive. I mean, a million things happen every week, circumstances that we can't control. But we have 100% control of our perspective.
Through what lens will we see that? And what this book does and what the Apostle Paul shows us is there's four critical questions that he unconsciously asks that turns your perspective from poor me, victim, this is terrible, life isn't worth living. Oh, that might happen. Overwhelmed anxiety to God's in control. God is good.
And then very practical steps that allow us to shift our mindset and our lens at how we look at life that really allows us to have joy regardless of what we're going through. And by the way, memo, just as I looked at your face right there and people could, we are not saying this is easy. We're not saying it's a magic bullet. We're not saying it's going to happen real quickly. You can choose joy, but all of us have a lens or perspective that is developed over time, like I had.
And it takes some work. And I don't know, I'm guessing the name of your podcast, you have to develop the habit and go into training to develop how to. To develop a lens that looks at challenges in a different way. And as you do, God shows up and can allow us to experience. I think it's why C.S. Lewis said, joy is the serious business of heaven.
This isn't just like to help you be a little happier. This is a deep spiritual manifestation of God's spirit that upholds you and uplifts you and buoys you up in a way that there's no human explanation for.
Yeah, I love that. Because I think by nature, we tend to think certain things have to happen for us to be happy. And then if they're not happening, or if we have some trial like you went through with your back, it's like with each trial, we have to learn the way back to God to see it in the way he wants us to see it, to be joyful in the midst of it, maybe.
I think you're absolutely right. Right. And some are small things, but we build habits about how we even see small things. I mean, during that time, I mean, my back is one. But if anybody has adult kids, you're going to have some ups and downs with your adult kids. If you have small kids, you're going to have some ups and downs. We've all had ups and downs economically. If there's cause for fear, think about what we've been through in a global pandemic for the first time in 100 years.
And you don't shake all those things off because you say, oh, it's over. I should have a good attitude now. All of those things impact us. And so first is being aware. And, you know, there's an Old Testament passage in Nehemiah at a time when God's people were far from him. God's people were disobedient. And the agenda of God with his people, if we could go back in a time machine, we would think, well, I know he made promises to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, but this is never going to work.
I mean, I mean, they don't worship. They're not safe. Many of their kids can't even speak Hebrew anymore. They're stuck in Babylon, Persia after that. And a leader comes and he challenges their perspective and he invites them into God's bigger story. And he says to them, let us arise and build. And he reminds them of what God has done and what God has promised. And very interesting, by the time you get to chapter 8, in the midst of a real
challenge, it says, for the joy of the Lord is our strength. And there is a strength. Jesus, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, Hebrews 12. It's a powerful weapon. It is something that can overcome the deepest anxieties and discouragement and depression. And not to say there aren't times where you need doctors and good medication and all the rest, But, you know, we're we're complex beings. So it's not physical or emotional, spiritual. We're a package.
And part of that package is not just how we think, but our connection with God and the spirit.
And I like the way you have four different questions that we can think and that we can use really in any situation to change our perspective so that we can walk through joyfully. And I'd love to have you go through those questions for us if you could.
I would love to because this and I'm, you know, maybe this is why our hearts connect and I'm on here. I've always been I didn't grow up as a Christian. And when I first read the Bible, I couldn't understand it. But as God began to teach me, and I later, shockingly, to all my friends, became a pastor, to me it was always about, okay, I get that this is true, but for me the big question is, well, how do you live that out?
And so as I study the Bible, I think I'm always saying, God, I know this is true, but give me practical ways to live it out. And so if you would study the first 11 verses of Philippians chapter one, you would find someone whose circumstance, if we could take a movie camera and see the Apostle Paul in this dingy place, you don't get food unless someone brings it. So Epaphritus brings it. He's chained to someone and God gave him this dream
to take the gospel all around the world. And he's thinking, well, wait a second. This is what about those promises? He has every right to feel like God's not showing up. This is difficult. This is unfair. And I'm in here for being obedient to God. And so what does he do? It opens up and he thanks God. His focus is on them. He says, I'm so grateful. I look back at, remember when we met there? Yeah, you know, Lydia and then in the jailer and he came to Christ and those memories we had.
And everything you know i think of you with joy in my every prayer for you all and then he prays for them his focus is you know i'm praying that your love would abound still more and more in the real rich knowledge of christ and and then lots of specific things but what you realize is i i saw that and i thought where's his focus. It's upward and it's outward. And so I have on this card and that I mean, I read it over, over and over and over.
And I put it next to my bed. So in the morning and when I first get up and throughout the day, when I begin to, you know, my thoughts were negative or out of my mouth, I would hear myself be critical or negative. And, oh, I don't want to be that way. I would immediately, Chip, where's your focus? Is it upward? God, thank you. I don't like this right now, but thank you that you are in control. Thank you that you are good.
And oh, by the way, yeah, here's four or five things I can thank you for. And where's my focus? Yeah, this is rough with me, but oh, I've got a teammate in India right now, and they burned down all the houses, and he's representing us and teaching God's word. We've got a teammate. You know, pretty soon, the moment I started focusing on others, praying for others, and my focus went up, bam, my perspective changed.
So that was the first aha was I literally got where these four questions, I have them on a card, and I would read them over. And the moment that I would catch myself or to be even more honest, as I shared this with my wife, when she would catch me, hey, honey, I think, oh, that's right. The second question is from verses 12 through 18. He basically says my circumstances. I mean, yes, I'm in prison. Yes, I'm chained to these guards have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel.
And then he explains why and how that they were like the Green Beret or the Navy SEALs of their day. There was about 10 or 12,000 Praetorian guards and their goal was they would guard the emperor, but they were elite. They had huge, I mean, you know, like if you meet a Navy SEAL, everyone's going, whoa, you know, you are, you're in a class all by yourself. That was the Navy SEALs of their day. Well, every six hours, one of those guys is chained to Paul.
I'm not sure how long you could be chained to Paul and not know Jesus. So pretty soon, all these Praetorian guards are coming to Christ. And so the question becomes, what's my purpose? And so if my purpose is I want to be happy, I want my life to work out, I want a great marriage, I want all my kids to turn out right if I have kids, I want my business to be upwardly and up and to the right, and I never want to have a health issue, that's my purpose in life. I want to be happy and self-fulfilled.
You can be very disappointed because, I mean, it's a fallen world. But Paul looks at his circumstance through what? My circumstance. Difficult, painful, unfair, unjust, falsely accused. That's your circumstance, has turned out for the greater progress of the gospel. So what he's asking is, what's God's purpose in this instead of what's my personal purpose in this? And so as I begin to do that in my own personal life, it was, okay, Lord. And by the way, let's be really, really honest.
I want to say I'm going to be real. You know, I think the Bible is really clear as I read the Psalms. Lord, I don't like the back surgeries. I don't like the pain. Personally, I think I could do more for you if I had a lot less pain. I, you know, I've been through my whining stage. I've asked, why me? You can do that for a little while, but you can't stay there.
And then it was, okay, you say that your grace is sufficient for me, and you have promised that your power is perfected in weakness, that when I'm in pain and when I'm in a situation, a relationship, a circumstance that's really hard, that for whatever reason, at least right now, you haven't delivered me out of it. You're promised you'll deliver me through it. So then the question is, Lord, how do you want to use this? How could what I'm going through lead others to Christ?
How could what I'm going through, what's my purpose, build up the body of Christ? And maybe most importantly how and what I'm going through because your big agenda is to make me like Jesus. And so I started to ask, what's my purpose? And pretty soon I realized, you know, I'm an activator. I'm a high-energy person. God got me really still. And during this time, I didn't think I could do much.
But on one of those walks, I was praying, and God put some ideas in my mind that were like, Lord, could that possibly be from you? And we're in the middle of COVID and this and that. And I found myself, I couldn't travel anywhere. And I'm all this pain. And... I reached out to a guy in Egypt who's the head of all the Protestant churches. And I was, I did this, I mean, I only did this to get my focus off myself. I mean, there was no, there was no noble. I really, you know,
it wasn't that I didn't care about him. He's a friend and we've built a relationship, but it was like, okay, I'm, I am so turning into a victim right now. So I reach out to him during COVID and I reach out to him and I encourage him. And he says something like, you know, we're barely surviving. And in passing, I say, you know, I've been thinking of a series. I've had a lot of time on the art of survival from James chapter one. He said, send it to me.
I said, well, I've been thinking about the series. And he goes, well, send it to me as soon as you can. I mean, people are dying. The markets are closed. It's horrendous. And that was on a Thursday. And despite my back thing, I could sit for a while. By Monday, I had a film crew with two guys. I stretched fabric over PVC pipe.
It looked like a brick wall behind me. And I did a three-part series from James Wan about the art attitude, consider it all joy, a resource, supernatural wisdom, no matter how hard it is, and a theology of overcoming discouragement. In a week, he had it translated. Another week, I met with every pastor on this huge Zoom thing. Fast forward, I had a guy that was our international guy.
He said, this isn't just for them. a week later there were 300 cities from india and we're doing that all those churches and two months later we had tens of thousands of pastors every morning and every night throughout covid and once a month i would teach and get up early to get half the world and and then i'd stay up late to do the other half of the world and everybody helped right now media name a christian organization everyone was let's just help these pastors.
That exploded into in the last. And I want people to get the perspective. I'm whining internally because this is the hardest, most painful thing I've experienced. It put me in a position of desperation, which led me to reach out and help someone who had a more difficult situation. And since that time, we've trained 400 and some thousand pastors in live events in every continent around the world.
And our international ministry, as we help pastors grow, has mushroomed, which so my circumstance actually turned out for the greater progress of the gospel. That doesn't mean my back hurt less. That just meant God's purposes got fulfilled. But that's a very different question.
I love how creative God is. I mean, I love how he uses difficult circumstances in such creative ways, and that's a perfect example of it.
But I also think.
Too, we sometimes think automatically his purposes are going to be accomplished. But if you hadn't been actively working on renewing your mind and changing your perspective, those things wouldn't happen. So it is a partnership, and God has so many things he wants to accomplish, but we have a part to play in that as well.
Yeah, I love Paul's perspective of that. I think it's actually in chapter 2 where he says, For God is both to work and to will for his good pleasure. Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, we need to work out, not work for. We need to work out what God has worked in. It's that partnership that you talk about. And part of my, you know, we all have strengths. Everyone listening, they have strengths, even those who don't think they've got strengths.
But there's always a dark side to all of our strengths. And so I'm very futuristic. I'm an activator. I want to get things done. If there's a problem, I want to fix it. Those are strengths. But the dark side is self-dependency, being too busy, working too much rather than listening not enough. And it was like God's, in his kindness, by the way, not mad at me. A lot of people, every time they go through hard times, they think, God must be really mad at me. I must have done terrible things.
Well, if you've done some terrible things, ask him to forgive you because Jesus wants to and he will. But many times he's allowing things in our life out of his kindness and his goodness to get our attention, to develop something in us. We can't impart what we don't possess. And you can't give away patience that you don't have. You can't give away love that you don't have. You can't give away encouragement that you don't have.
And sometimes he allows circumstances where he gets to minister to us, and even through other people in ways. You know, as the Apostle Paul would say later in 1 Corinthians, in the way that we've been comforted, that we can now give it away. And so on that card... And when I would begin to drift, either in my mind, I got where my words were not so negative at all. And then but inside my head, you know, I was still into training. So where's your focus?
What's your purpose? And then in the next section, he talks to them about, well, I have a dilemma. And here's my dilemma. You know, my trial is not over. and I may get set free or I may get executed and I don't know which one. And then he has this weird, I mean, for most of us, he goes, oh, well, to live is Christ. So I'm going to continue on, walk with Christ, but to die is gain. And instantly I'll be in the presence of Christ. And he goes, I don't know which to choose.
And then you almost get that the spirit's prompting him, even as he's writing this note. He goes, you know, in my spirit, I'm sensing that God will want me around because it'll be more profitable for you. His focus is still on them. But what I realized by that was he didn't fear death because his hope was not in this life. And the third question I start to ask myself is, Chip, where's your hope? Is your hope that all your grandkids are going to turn out right? And that's my desire.
Is your hope that you're never going to have another big problem in your marriage? Because early on, boy, we had real struggles in the early part. Is your hope that you're, you know, never going to have a health issue? Is your hope? We build so many things on what you said earlier. I call it the if-then mindset. You know, I'm single. If I ever get married, then I'll be happy. Oh, now I'm married. If we could have our children, then we'd be married.
If my children turn out right. Well, if we could ever buy a house, then I will. If my business goes. And what happens to all of us, if we're honest. We actually have experienced a lot of the thens. We just make another one, right?
Right, yeah.
You know, and it's not like if that would happen, it's like if I could ever get a new car. In about six months, you look around, other people have cars, it doesn't have the new car smell anymore. It's just human. That is our hope getting played out in our circumstances getting better than I'll be. And I think that's at the core between happiness and joy. Happiness is a good thing. I want to be happy. Happiness is when my happenings are going positively.
Discouragement, if I live by circumstances, is when my happenings are negative. I think God wants us to be very realistic, but he longs for us, even when our happenings are not what we would choose, that we can have joy.
And that is the byproduct of being connected to Jesus in a way where he's working in our lives and in our hearts and I think the key on our side of the equation you know God's part our part is perspective and how I look at things is so so critical and so I begin to you know ask God even so where's my hope is my hope that the ministry goes great all the time is is my hope and then And I just realized. Okay, Lord, my hope has to be in you and me just today getting up and let's
walk together. That's what you want. You know, Paul would say in 2 Corinthians, for we make it our ambition to walk pleasing to the Lord. God, I don't know what you're doing, and I don't like all these hardware in my back, and I certainly don't like the pain, but you didn't say that you were going to deliver me out of everything. you said you would be with me. And in most cases, you deliver me through it.
And if the greatest things that could ever happen, happen because I'm dependent, I'm experiencing your power and your wisdom, like never before. Eternity is a really, really, really long time. And time is a really short little thing. And I think that was the apostle, You know, these present trials are not to be compared to the glory that follows. And I think we, you know, we spiritualize all that. Yeah, someday glory, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, hope is an eternal perspective, but we tend to get caught up with just the now. And so it's more than just being in the scriptures. I think part of this training is what other things do I allow to go in my mind? You know, every commercial is designed what?
Get us to buy something or want something or create a need, maybe.
Yeah. Yeah. Every commercial says, you know, you really aren't as beautiful as you could be, but this toothpaste and your teeth got white. You, you know, really, if you're a loser in that car, but red convertible with that beautiful woman or handsome man who jumps in that, that car, then you'll be, it always creates this.
You don't measure up because if, if we don't feel that, then we then we would never want to buy something and i think part of our is we got to say i'm going to limit what i let in my mind that creates desires and perverted passions that the world makes promises that it can never deliver on and so part of that is the you know saying no and then part of it is the saying yes it's that you know romans 12 2 do not be conformed or morphed or shaped according to the pattern
of this world, but be metamorphosized, transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I think we say that a lot, but we don't quote the end of that. The so that you can actually test, and the word is to experience in real time, God's will that is good and perfect and well-pleasing. So that was the third one. And the fourth question simply is at the very end. He says something that just really messes with all the prosperity teaching.
He says, for you, it has been granted. You know, he's talking to this group that he loves, and they're concerned about him. Like, hey, wait a second. If you really love God, and Paul's the most committed Christian I know, and he's an apostle, and he ends up in jail, like, ooh, this isn't like how to be healthy, wealthy, and never have a problem.
And he says to you in verse 29, it's been granted not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake, experiencing the same conflict, which you saw to be in me and here to be in me. And you're going to experience as well. And I did a little word study for that word. Granted is the word grace. It's a grace gift. It's a grace gift to believe.
And this is hard for us Americans, especially. It's a grace gift to suffer for the sake of Christ, to find difficulty and pain because of our relationship or because of the things in a fallen world. And there's something about suffering that shapes us like nothing else.
I wish it weren't true. The most loving, incredible Christians I've ever met here and all around the world, when you dig into their story there's usually some really chapters of very deep pain or injustice or hurt or and and you know he he's letting them know so the question i came up with chip what are your expectations because i think we have this there's another equation i don't like this one but it's so rooted in the back of my mind if i'm obedient
if i'm in god's word if i'm doing what wants me to. If I'm giving the first portion of my money, if I'm being the kind of Christian that he wants me to be, certainly, right? That's my side of the equation. He's going to bless me. My life's going to go well. Certainly, I mean, drunk drivers won't hit me or one of my kids. I mean, my business is going to go well. Our family is going to turn out right. No. I mean, guess what? Drunk drivers hit really committed Christians.
People who love God with all their heart get cancer it is a fallen world it's not god doesn't care but what are your expectations and the promise again is i'll be with you always even to the ends of the earth and so those four questions and in the book you know i actually kind of give some like pictures of little cards and and and show people how to go into training um but you can, actually change the lens through which you experience difficult relationships and people.
You don't have to be a prisoner of anxiety. You don't have to be a prisoner of other people's attitude towards you. You don't have to be a prisoner of the ups and downs of your circumstances. And that's why I entitled the book, I Choose Joy. We actually can. And as we said before, Or it doesn't come naturally. But what have any of us ever really accomplished that was just easy and didn't take any effort? Not very much.
That's right. And I feel like if you keep going through those questions, I actually put them on the Reminders app on my phone. So I put, I mean, I opened up a little list. I put all those questions in. I put the equation in. And they're very easy to remember. And I was just using them even for simple things, like when I have a day when I don't get a lot of work done. The expectations one I really like. And you put a lot of practical things in the book about those things.
But, you know, a lot of good examples. I just loved it. It's an easy thing to remember when you're walking around or doing whatever. Yes.
When I start to, you know, well, like maybe in the providence of God, today has been a rough day. My wife, we went to a couple of graduations. I had a granddaughter graduate from high school and her sister graduated from college all within about a week of each other. So we went to visit and the night before we're supposed to leave, she got food poisoning. Oh, no. I mean, anyone who's had that, right? I mean, 10 trips to the bathroom and vomiting and all the rest.
And then we couldn't couldn't get, next night. And then then I couldn't get a plane to get back. So the last three or four days have been, you know, trying to and then so I've been up all night for a couple nights. And I woke up this morning and just was like, okay, we're going to talk about habits today on the podcast. I'm going to talk about choosing joy. I'm gonna have to really choose today because my energy level is slow. I don't feel really very good.
Circumstances have been really, as a result of that, we're going to miss something next week that we had planned. It was sort of a couple days to get away. That didn't work because she's sick. And it was like, okay, Lord, as one of my closest friends says, Chip, sometimes the Lord asks us to eat the spiritual food that we're serving to others. and.
And you know
And so what i can say is i didn't hop out of bed with like wow what a great day lord thank you so much i felt uh low no energy not much motivation i chose to read three or four psalms slowly i out loud quoted psalm 103 the first five verses and forget none of his benefits and I went through and Lord, you have, you've pardoned all my iniquities. I mean, think of that. You've, you have healed all my diseases. They all aren't done yet, but you've, you've redeemed my life from the pit.
I will, I will not be in hell because of your love for me. I'm, there is a place for me and it's real. And you've crowned my life with loving kindness and, and compassion. You care. You feel for me. You understand what it's like to feel like this. And you've filled my life with good things so that my youth, my energy can be renewed. I want to let you know I don't feel all that right now. And so in my conversation, I just want to let you know, I know those things are true.
And I want those things to inform my thinking. And it's okay to be tired. And it's okay not to feel so good. And it's okay to feel a little bit sick. But it's not okay, poor me. It's not okay to try and get sympathy from people and let everyone know, how's it going? Well, it's a really rough day. And I've been through this and I've been through that. And, you know, please, you know, feel sorry for me. We all do different things
as opposed to I'm going to meet people. I just came off a Zoom call before you. I'm going to meet people that have real issues in their life. They're a lot more than missing some sleep and food poisoning. And I need to be, by God's grace, have a perspective that I can give whether I feel like it or not. And the crazy, maybe that's not a very spiritual category, but that's my emotion. The crazy thing is when I do give when I don't feel like it,
when I do choose to get in the scriptures. When I didn't, I mean, if I could say this out loud, I didn't want to read the Bible this morning. Right? Well, that was just my emotions. But so are my emotions in control of my life? Well, they could be, but I choose not for them to be.
And as I begin to read, you know, my soul began to unthaw, and as I began to focus on other people, upward and outward, and when I thought about God's purposes, it's been a slow climb, but, so choosing joy is like an everyday, moment by moment thing. But it is so critical because a morning like I started with can turn into not asking those questions that can turn into someone who's very discouraged. And when we're discouraged, we make really bad decisions.
And when we're discouraged, we treat people in ways that are unhelpful for the relationship, which produce consequences. So we're always on sort of either a downward spiral or an upward spiral. And to me, choosing joy, as C.S. Lewis said, it is the serious business of heaven.
If Jesus, it was joy that gave him the ability to set his face like a flint and go to the cross, the joy set before him, then we need to look with anticipation of future joy, but also the joy that we can have in realigning that perspective. And that's my hope. I mean, as I finished the book, I just thought of all the mental anxiety and people, mental health issues they're struggling with.
And for people that maybe not have mental health issues, but maybe they're just a lot like me and they left to themselves little by little by little, kind of live way more based on the ups and downs of their circumstances, as opposed to the consistency of the. That Jesus said, out of you will flow living water and staying connected to him and keeping perspective.
Yeah. And I feel like the sooner in the day we do that, that we catch things, the better, because that keeps us from getting into that really huge slump by not dealing with things and going to God. So I just, I think your book and the questions, all the examples you give, it's another way to process all those things in life. And I love it too, because I feel like you have a lot of maturity and, you know, I like your theology.
I just like everything about it. Because I think sometimes in our current culture, we're focused on, you know, feel your emotions and all that instead of like, no, let's bring the thoughts captive to Christ that are causing some of these negative emotions. God wants us to think biblically. And sometimes that involves surrender and recognizing that everybody's going through hard times and all those things. And you just bring all that up in your book, which I really appreciate.
Well, thanks. And not to be overly prescriptive, but I see people who really love Jesus, who do certain things regularly every day, that almost determine without a doubt that they will not have a good perspective. So when you get up in the morning, here's how to have a not good perspective. Make sure the very first thing you do is open your phone.
And the next thing is scroll. So you want the thoughts of other people, the issues of other people that tell you you don't measure up to them to be the first thing. Then check if you happen to be in the financial world, check Wall Street and find out where the economy is so that you can plant seeds of fear in your mind, in your heart. Then make sure that you don't eat any breakfast and do not get any exercise. Those two things are way too helpful. One cup of coffee.
And by the way, make sure you're in a hurry because hurry will really help you go downhill really, really quickly. So you'll drive a certain way. You'll look at everybody else. You'll forget that they all have an important place to go to. And you'll weave in and out of traffic. And you'll rush in. And you'll be really flustered. and then you'll blame all the people that you work with for they're not making your life work out.
And you can love Jesus with all your heart and get up and live that way each and every day. And then at night or go out to dinner with a friend and talk about how, you know what? You know, I sure love Jesus, but he's just not coming through for me. You know, this is really hard. And if God really loved me, why did he let this happen? Why did he let that happen?
And by the way, that kind of person with that kind of schedule will treat the person that is your boyfriend or your girlfriend or your marriage partner in ways that will help them not want to be around you. So if you do that, and then when you feel all like that, you need a break. So go buy some things that you can't afford and eat some food that you're not really hungry for.
So once you gain weight and don't like yourself and you have lots of debt that keeps coming in, then you'll really have the kind of life that you never wanted. Now, I'm being, I'm not trying to be as sarcastic as I sound what I described I mean I've sat across the table.
And I've done ministry for 40 years I'm going to go on record and say I've had thousands of conversations of people in my life and these struggles and my marriage and my work and my emotions and I will you you brought it up so you know I listen you know I'm you know I don't think being a hammer helps people. So you listen, you empathize, you ask a few questions, but I will always get to tell me about your time in God's word.
Tell me a little bit about how you start your day. And by the way, the research is phenomenal on this. I mean, if the Bible didn't exist, if it wasn't true, how you start your day, what you allow in your mind just before you go to bed what you allow in your mind the first thing in the morning i mean all this, things about how our brain works, God has designed us to come to him, have our mind renewed, have a center that never changes, that's personal and loves us.
And he doesn't slap us on the back and say, okay, Chip, go get him. You know, okay, you and I have met, go get him. After we spend some time and I read and I pray, and in my case, I tend to, I'm a verbal processor, so I journal of some things and write down a couple of specific requests. Then Jesus says, Hey, Chip, let's go get them.
Yeah, I love that.
He says, arm around me. And okay, you know, we're, we are going to go into this traffic together. We're going to have that meeting that you're kind of dreading. We're going to have that conversation that you've really had to get some courage because you need to speak the truth and love. And it just changes everything.
And you know living on the edge our byline is helping christians live like christians and so a part of that is not all of it but a big part of it is developing the kind of habits and routines that you don't make yourself better but they're conduits of grace god gives grace through his word gives grace as we talk with him from the heart he gives grace when we have authentic community and in loving, deep relationships. He gives grace as we serve other people.
He gives grace when we are saying, Lord, I really want to have the right attitude. So I'm going to ask myself, where's my focus and what's my purpose and where's my hope and what are my expectations? And that's my heart for those that are listening to us, that even a baby step, a baby step of writing those on a card or, you know, getting the book and saying to two or three people, why don't we read this together and kind of hold each other accountable and...
Imagine what would happen if we were like joyful Christians at our homes and where we go to work. And it's just a powerful, it's how God wants us to live. So that's our dream.
Yeah, it is. Well, I'm really thankful that you made this resource for everybody. And I'd encourage you guys all to check out all of Chip's resources. They'd be really good for Bible studies at your church, small group studies. So helpful. And this is another good resource. So let us know again, Chip, where everybody can find you online.
Online is very easy. Living on the Edge, all one word, livingontheedge.org. A real easy way, if you just go to the App Store, if you just would like to hear some teaching as well, and we have some short videos on discipleship, it's just my name, Chip Ingram in the App Store, and it's all free on there. So there's help. We long to see. When a Christian lives like a Christian, a marriage changes.
A workplace changes a home changes and we all want to be that person and some people just don't know how and some people need encouragement so that's our goal and when christians live like christians, those people don't know christ say wow how do you get a marriage like that how can you have that attitude in the midst of that difficult time and that's how uh i think the early church throughout all history how we love one.