Welcome to the Christy Cast the half hour of Power. Actually, I better start the timer. Today's episode is a special one because it is very personal. A few years ago, I can't remember how long ago, but it was doing Lockdown, I made a friend Josh Reid Jones. In that weird way that happened in Lockdown, you sort of fast tracked your connection. We became really really close. But last year, in twenty twenty four, I was deep in the thick of it, sorting out my life, my work, my family,
my finances. All of this was new to me, and in order to do so, I withdrew from everyone for over a year. I thought it was going to be a couple of months, and it turned out to be closer to eighteen. I just disappeared. Now, most people, understandably would have taken that as a sign, would have judged me for it. They may have moved on, they would have definitely taken it personally. But Josh didn't. Throughout that entire time, he kept checking in, no pressure, no expectations.
Just kindness, just a quiet, constant, active kindness. And I wondered, then, why did he never assume the worst? Why did he never feel slighted. Why did he never stop reaching out? Did he ever think maybe I should just give up on this?
And if he did think that, then why didn't he follow through? We haven't spoken about any of this yet. We still haven't really seen each other. I've saved it for today because I've got so many questions. Welcome to the Chrisy Cast. Joshua Jones, Now, what did you think was going on with me?
He doesn't take a genie. I obviously knew what was happening all the way up to lead into everything, you know, and it's all the big stuff. It's like really big, big, heavy things for a big hearted person who's got lots of people relying on them, you know, heavy as the crown or heavy as the head that words the crown, and you've got a lot of When you've got a lot on sometimes people just more people. There's just more to deal with, you know.
So more people.
No problems, people problems. Yeah, if you feel like you have to do things, it can be like that.
And it was just the weight of the responsibility and it was all new and I feel like my life that I'm the sort of person. Do you turn down the radio when you're reversing. Oh yeah, yeah, I do too, because I have to shut out the noise or I can't concentrate, and that's sort of what I had to do. I was so full of like, I didn't know what to do when you would contact me, because I was like, I'm not I'm not the same person I was, do
you know what I mean? And I just thought, oh, you know, if I do catch up with him, it's going to be such a downer and I don't even know where to start. I'm so overwhelmed, and so I did those that awful thing that I never do. I just would just never. I just never responded. Did you think that I had ghosted you at any point?
Ah?
Nah, I didn't think ghosting.
I just thought, you know, you're in it, and probably if anything, that just means you know that it's more important to just you know, hear if you need it, and just do that with no expectation, because like, that's that's obviously what's happening. The first couple of times. It's like, oh, you're just busy. We're both a bit shit sometimes messaging anyway, because we run around you. Look, we have everyone, you know,
we do. I think that most people do go I'll get back to that and you know, fuck, it's been three days off.
Now I'll do it.
But then after a couple I was like, okay, you know, you're in the middle of it. And then you probably once a few big things happen, it's difficult to have to reiterate those things to more people all the time. And you've got professionals and stuff you've got to deal with. If you know finance, you've got to go sit with your account. It's not always then you've got to deal with someone else, and you've got to do another thing. You don't always want to sit down and go through
it all again with someone else, you know. And then after a little a few of those things happening, like I've got seven big things I've got to talk about and I cannot be asked. And now I've got ten big things, and now it's too much, and now I can't catch you up because it's too much to do in one go.
And in hindsight, if I could have my time again, I wouldn't, by the way, and as horribilous anison are half horribillous, but I think if I had my time again, I would have I would have spoken to you, because I didn't speak to anybody. So when I know what you mean, you don't want to say the same thing over and over. That's annoying. But I wasn't saying it to anybody, and I think that, in hindsight, made it harder. But I felt like I couldn't I couldn't even articulate
how much I was having to learn. I couldn't even do it. And I think I said that to you on a few occasions. I can't even I don't even know where to start.
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot.
So what do you think, because I do hear nobody ever got mad at me for it, for disappearing, which I'm really grateful for, because I don't like it when people get mad at me, particularly when I'm sad. But people do, a lot of people do. And you know, there's whole Reddit threads on how long is acceptable to not respond to a text message. I just don't think you're wired that way.
Yeah, I mean, you get frustrated. Everyone Everyone can get frustrated, and everyone can feel sad about stuff. And you know, I missed you, you know, like I miss you because I miss you.
But I also didn't want you to know as well, because it was something that it was embarrassing. It was just such a mess, and I don't know you and your eyes looking at me. I just couldn't stand it.
It's hard to think when you've when you've developed so much competence, to then find yourself swimming in all this like lack of competence and just be like, I don't want to be perceived as this person. And it works so hard to be past step one that now that I'm back at it, this isn't something that I want someone to be that's known me from step thirty. Yes,
to know me at step one. But you know, I think good friends are here for all of it, up the ups and the downs and starts in the finish and all the things in between, and and but I also understand that how how vulnerable it feels if someone's with you in those moments and you're not one hundred percent sure what's going to happen, because been ages since anyone's been there, and you know, in that circumstance for you, you know, so I get it.
And also I just didn't want to like bring anyone down. Yeah, you know what, I mean, you just don't want to be a burden. If you've only got miserable, hard things to say, you sound like you're winging. And I just thought, God, you know, I know your story. I know all of the things that you hear, and the people that you help and the people you work with and all of that, and I just thought, this feels really a lot for me, but I know that it isn't, and I didn't want to complain to here.
I always think it's so funny when people say that to me, because I'm like, if I had a rash and I had a doctor friend, and I'm like, oh, you look at rashes all day. I'm not going to show you my rash, Like that's exactly the person you should show it that person, right, And then anybody, you know, like the people go, oh, you know you you won't want to hear about marbles. I'm here for it. I'm
good at it. But I also have seen enough and know enough and myself, you know, I don't practice everything that I preach in that regard, you know about talking about stuff either, you know, so we all have those moments. Not everyone feels there'll be a burden if they talk to others about their problems. But some people really feel that. So if you're want of those people, then it's a normal or it makes sense that you would respond that way.
Did you know that that sort of person? I was, Yeah, of course, And you seem to have been born with the ability of active kindness.
Yeah, yeah, Well it's very lovely of you.
To say, and it's rare. Actually. I find that people are kind, people are good in general, but to be constantly thinking of ways to be thoughtful and kind and really mean it is rare. I think we should all do it a little bit more. What do you say to people that would like to be that sort of person? Where do you start?
I think the starting point is to prioritize it, to think of it as being something that's really important to you as a starting point, and then to recognize that it's easier to do that, or you know, it's easy to be nice to the waiter and friendly to everyone in shop for your friends when things are going well, like when you've got all your shit together and everything's going well, and so in that moment you can you can sort of get by and go, yeah, see I do care, I do do it, And I think it's
when the when the pressure is on and things aren't so easy, you're feeling a certain way, you're letting your own you know, you're not having a great day or things are difficult. If you drop it off, then then it's not a priority. It's clearly not really a priority
to you. And I use the can that consideration to sort of reorient what I'm doing, partly to get out of my own head sometimes and partly because I think that you learn about you learn about how difficult it can be or where the challenges are when you try and do something and you've got to work around it.
There's been times I haven't really had money for stuff, you know, at all, and so someone wants a beer and I don't really have the money, and then I'm like, well, I'll buy the beers because I'm first of all like silly things like I'm embarrassed and not buy a beer or whatever.
Problem.
But then, okay, I eat baked beans for a couple of weeks because we had a few pints or whatever. But that moment mattered more than whether I and Ah bake beans for a couple of weeks. It's a bit shitty.
So when you do that then you get that experience, and then you realize you have more space for other people because you realize how difficult it is, and if in the difficulties pile up and not everyone's thinking about this all the time, and so you have empathy not just for people having a difficult time, but empathy in the way that people respond because you know how hard it was when you did it, and it's easy to imagine a tiny little bit harder and you wouldn't have
been able to do it either, or you could have easily picked some other way forward. And I think that that helps.
There was that cheesy book about love languages and whatever. Everyone's done that when they've first gone out with their boyfriend or girlfriend. But do you think that empathy and how we show it, not how we receive it, how we show it is more to do with the person that's doing it, and does the things that you do reflect your own the things that make you feel good? You know, like, does it make you feel good when
you're feeling shit? If a friend texts you, yeah, I know that they're thinking of you.
Yeah, I think so. I think it's nigh, But I also know how it can feel like a lot on a big day as well, when you've got a lot on there. It's one of the reasons why I think it's great when you've got friends you can sort of just have a little yarn with a lot regularly. Yeah, it takes to catch up immensity out of it, and so I'm really bad. I will never I cannot remember a time really that I've texted mate and gone mate, I am in all sorts and I need to talk
to you. So if I haven't spoken to anyone, if it ended up, I haven't spoken any for ten days, I'm just sitting on it. And then by the time it rolls around it's been ten days. To catch up is too much and I never get to that point. But if you're just catching up and then what's going on, like ah, you know I didn't sleep that well, or this going on? Well, you know something happened. Spinning around a little bit on this in my head and it just takes the it takes the seriousness out of it,
and like that focus on me. I'm woefully uncomfortable with pulling a conversation together around myself like I'm having a bad day. Gather around, team.
I need you all to just I'm going to take you through it minute by minute.
If I tell you, I could tell you a story about when I shit myself in Peru, No worries gather around everybody. I'm happy to be the center of attention for that, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't do it for those sorts of things, and for me, it really those little touch points regularly really help.
That is a great tip because I don't do that, and that means that the people that I really love and that I know love me and I feel that love, don't really know what's going on. I keep that away from them out of necessity because I'm busy and I have to move on to the next thing. And then like every three days there's something, and then three days after that, I can't remember what that was. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but that is really good. Would you go? Would you go so far as to
set a reminder. I'm going to set a reminder to call you and my friend and would you dial the number?
Yeah.
I recommend all the time for people to put it in their phones. It's so easy to forget, to forget stuff. The time goes so quick, and like I've got dates in my phone for my mates, like the kids' birthdays, like when anniversary of like people passing away at their family members.
And my sobriety anniversary. You're the only person that remembers that, including me.
Yeah, that's right, including thanks for the reminder. I forgot about it that.
I like, Wow, yes it is two four years.
Because sometimes you need people to celebrate the stuff you sort of are a bit over or don't think about that much as well. Yeah, so I think that's good. And then I think just the just the touching base and knowing like, hey, look, if this conversation goes for three minutes, who gives a shit, it doesn't matter. Touch base has a going. What's happening? What are you up to? Just driving here? Big day whatever. I'm kind of tired, you know, you get ten I'm tired conversations in a row.
You get a sense of like, what's happening, you know, if you get oh, I'm away this weekend, I'm partying this week, I'm doing this week. Okay, it's interesting you're doing those things. So I'm out for dinner all the time. You've got people around you, you know, like cool, you're being social. That's nice and you've got friends who are like, you're being social means you're saying yes to too many things and you're probably going to burn out. I can see that in your future. Or you're saying yes to
things and you're not hiding out in a cave. That's good for that other friend who you go, that's good, you've got it together. But that's part of those little touch points of how you get to really understand like the rhythms of people's lives as well, and then you can help in more active ways. That makes sense, you know, So then that's useful because it's like otherwise it gets more generic, and the more generic to help is the less pointed and good it can be.
I think sometimes everyone that ever comes to my house, which is rare, I'll admit it, but you know, you know, it's such a miracle when me and my primary school girlfriends the planet's aligned and we all see each other. It's just so gorgeous. But everybody leaves with the little frozen meal of some description that I've made. I even invested in a huge deep freeze to keep them in because I just think, what a delightful treat to not have to think of dinner.
The best, the best, the best, and when you're offering help for people, because this happens a lot. So one of the reminders I put in my phone someone dies, someone has a baby, those sorts of things. I put the reminder in for like six seven weeks afterwards, when everyone else is dropped off, because the first couple of weeks everyone's around. You get inundated with stuff forty eight lasagnas and everyone's messaging you constantly, and then six eight
weeks later you're on your own. But like the hustle and bustle of the first six weeks is passed, and that's usually when people like are left with their own devices, you know, and so I just you know, you check in then and then you're you're at the right time.
Yeah, that is the time, isn't it? Six seven eight weeks you realize that life is going to go on and you have to get over it, get into it, keep living without that person, that situation, that relationship. That's hard.
Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a big time. And then I think it's good to offer people help that they can then mold to their own needs. If I just say I'm bringing you over at lasagna and your fridge is full. You don't want to say no, but like also you don't really need it. Say how can I make your dinner sometime next week or the week after? Or would you like me to drop something off?
They go, you know what, Tuesday in a fortnight, I've got nothing on and it would be awesome, And now I can plan my shopping around it, so I don't haven't just done my shopping and filled the fridge with everyone else's stuff. And now it's useful and it's in the calendar, and that's good. And sometimes it's like the asking and the paying attention in that way can be really good, and it helps you work out what's useful for people as well, because people like different kinds of help.
Some people want to walk, somebody want to be on a meal, want to laugh, want to just you know, I have a yarn on the phone for a few hours or whatever, or like text heaps or something. So it's good to do those things and.
Work it out.
But when you give people some choices, I think that's really important.
I am naturally like I naturally gravitate to being kind and trying to make people feel good. About themselves. But I find it hard, not so that I find it hard to accept. I don't know what kindness looks like to me, And I think, well, I didn't until this situation with you and I and I think what I learned from you and no one else is that what kindness feels like to me is maybe I don't know, just like a presence, a non judgmental I know it
was weird. It's weird what you did. You're a very weird man.
Weird, I'm a weirdo. But I think we have a really wonderful relationship of just being able to be, you know, and you're doing all the time. You've got like you want one of the great doers, and there's you're always doing stuff, and then we just get to be and you don't have to pretend and I don't. I don't need you to do anything for me. And so that doesn't come with a list of stuff that's strange, that
is strange them eating spring rolls. We don't really have anything that we have to do on a regular base.
I drove through was that some marm Bina Marmbina where we had a great ground.
Yeah, there's been some good ones but.
You know, I grew my own Vietnamese mint.
You're going to say, you.
Spring rubbles your time. I grew my own Vietnamese mint because you know, they never give you enough.
Yep, they never give.
You enough, and so it goes like wild fire. It's amazing. We need to get back into that.
Yeah, yeah, but the doing, the doing and the being are different, and I'm not a great in general. It is different and it's really lovely. It really is nice.
Where are we going to be next? Let's put it in the diary? Can we please?
Again?
I'm serious because I've really missed you and I and also I just really want to thank you for that because it was a fairly lonely time by my own doing, because I had these huge areas of my life that had changed fundamentally, and I'm so like, I take it so seriously making sure that everyone's okay and doesn't feel in the dark or I don't know, I just and I just didn't know what I was doing. I had so much to learn in all the big areas, and
I just always knew that. It was like I was on stage and everything was crazy, and then you were just off in the you know side, of stage, just you know, no comments, just watching, and that felt very nice because and also your timing was extraordinary, because a curveball would be thrown at me, or something wouldn't work out, or I hadn't quite made the right decision, and then you would pop up on my phone and I didn't. You know, the protocol is when somebody messages you, you
message them back. You know, I know that, of course, but it was different with you. It was like you didn't you didn't expect it, and you were just there going remember who you who you are. You know, you're still that person even though everything you know it's crazy. It's a I mean, everything's great now, but my god, Josh, okay far out.
I think everyone's had those moments where like things are going so nasty, like if I lose, if I lose grip on this, I won't grip it again.
And so I've just got to.
Keep my head down and away from anything that might even yeah, tiniess cracking it.
It's like, you know, you've got greasy hands at the show and you're helium blow. It's gone. You just watch it. I can't ever get that back.
And everyone, everyone who loves you is is is glad to see you come out of the other side, you know. And but things will happen again. That will happen, and we'll be here again.
I won't.
I'm not going to isolate next time. I'm even getting I'm getting better at that now, even try.
It out to see what happens ab test next crisis. I come back and go, you know what, Actually, I am going on my own again. The third time. I'm back on my own. This is the second time was rubbish out.
I asked for help, amazing about three weeks ago. That's so good, and I got it. And the person really was my sister really loved to help. She was so happy to help.
I learned it.
It's like a kind of like an urban myth that I was told years ago, came up from my in my work, and the story is that a son and his mum they go next door and they ask the name before like a cup of sugar or whatever, and they get the cup of sugar and they bring it home, and the sun goes along and goes, why do you ask them for a cup of sugar, Like we've got sugar? And I was like, well, they come and ask us for help. I'm only twenty bucks. I need a thing.
You know, they're not doing as well as we're doing, and so they need help. But if it's always just there asking for help, they'll get really uncomfortable with it over time. So every now and then I ask them for something I know they can do, so that it doesn't get out of balance and that they feel like we're all contributing, because that's what we want. We want people to feel like they don't have a benefactor. They just have a friend, you.
Know, right, And so it's in exchange.
And to give them some agency in that process. And I remember I did some work with a family and then they invited me for dinner. Was out of scope to go to dinner or whatever their house, and I was like, a day was a bad you know, it was a busy week. It's always a busy week. And I was like, and I remember the thing. I was like, oh yea, I should go. And it just makes it They just people just stay engaged longer if you do
that kind of stuff as well. And it's not to say you need to constantly ask everyone for help, but that it is a lovely thing to be trusted enough to be asked for help to be deemed competent enough for this person who you love to go, hey, can I get a can I get a chop out here with this? So most of the time people are rapped about it. They're wrapped to be asked for help. Yeah, and they'll do their very best, you know, to step
up and give you that help, which is lovely. It's one of the great lovely things about friendship.
It's the best. That's why friendship is a superpower.
It's so good.
Tag you and release you back into the world. But I do want to talk briefly about just being nice. Project. You are an incredibly intelligent man, and you could be I mean, I don't even know the names of these companies Price Cooper's, Waderhouse that they Deloitte's that's one of them. But you could easily be one of those guys, you know, moving and Shaken and blue Chips and blue Chip that, and you're not. Why. Why is what you do more important than what society has told us all is important?
I just think people deserve help, you know, they just deserve a leg up. The question I've always tried to answer is like, why don't people get the help that they need when they need it, for as long as they need it, regardless of how they come to need help. And we have this real culture of like deciding who's worthy or not worthy, whether we explicitly are in plaicitly
think about it. We blame individuals a lot for certain kinds of problems and not others or certain challenges, and we leave people to just flounder like that's part of like some kind of come up and for having a difficult time, like well, you've got to struggle for ages before we'll consider you worthy of help or something.
And I hate that.
I've seen so many people who just need help.
And we all need help.
We all need it everyone at some point. That's life.
It's like what I say to my kids if they feel sad or if they have a bad day or something. I'm like, I'm not here to change that. That's life. Don't believe what people tell you that it's got to look like an I caa at No, No, you know what I mean. It doesn't. It doesn't for anybody. What you're feeling is very normal. Go to bed. That's my do you know what I mean?
Auperdubo.
It might be different tomorrow and it might not be, but that's the whole landscape of it. So why doesn't everybody see that? I know that human beings look at people that are, you know, generationally down on their luck or struggling, and they go, well, you know, that's a you problem.
I think people are really good at recognizing opportunities that they didn't have, and not really good at recognizing opportunities that they have had, and not great at like observing the way in which the world like helps you out and in ways that aren't your fault in a positive way.
And if you can't, if you take full responsibility yourself for every good thing that's ever happened to you and ignore all the ways in which you were supported by being born in Australia, for instance, hanging through having Medicare and you know, having parents that were supportive or you know, having an education, whatever, then it gets a lot more
granular than that. But if you can't recognize that, and you're always thinking I did this because I did X, y Z, then the advice you're always giving other people is what you need to do is blah blah blah, and you're not looking around them to go hang on a minute. You don't have that supportive parent in your corner.
You don't have the opportunity to go play footy, you don't have the educational opportunities I had in that great teaching who brought you along, and the books in the house, and you know, the sleep that you've got, the sleep that kids in struggling houses don't get. And can you imagine the first twelve years of your life not having sleep or food.
Or or some peace, some dedicated clothes to sleep in?
Yeah?
Yeah, And and you know, I've seen all of those things, and I'm painfully aware of those circumstances. And then we tell the story about this kid at five going through these things, and everyone's very sad. But that five year old becomes a twenty year old, and then at twenty they're.
Like, well, so why is its life out ye?
Like, well, you know, I'm amazed at some of these people are still up and about. Even if they're not, they haven't reached their potential. They haven't been able to live up, like live into all these opportunities you know, that they could have had otherwise.
So it's just trying to be easy to feel hopeless in that situation because also, everywhere you look, people are going you're hopeless.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. The way that people respond to you in the world is a thing that most people don't recognize happen. We're talking about code switching and stuff where people sort of change how they present in different places.
But there's also just some people walk through the life and no one smiles at them, and no one says a kind word to them, and they have no mates, and they have no family that's any good, and they've been deeply hurt and let down in a million different ways, so that even when you rock up with help that could be good, would you trust them? You know, do you trust? It's never been the case for you, And
so you don't engage. And then someone goes see you don't care, you don't want to do the thing, and it's like that's that's not how it works.
You know, that's not how it works.
So it's a long it's a long process. But what I try to do is teach people like how to do it better, how to look at it better, how.
Do we do it? Because you know, the government throws a lot of money, it's some stuff stuff. Yeah, you know, certainly the public gets behind certain cool you know, charities and fundraisers. What in your experience is the best change making model.
So the full change making model that are developed a JBN would take it takes hours to go through. But a couple of like things that I think are really useful for people who are wanting to start thinking about it. One of them is to, I say, to align your aspirations. So whatever you want for the people that you care about the most in the world, your kids, your friends,
your parents, whatever, just want that for everybody else. If you want your kids to go to school in a castle and have Saturday sports and four instruments and learn twelve languages and have tutors every day, just want that for everybody else. And then if they don't have it, recognize that that's a deficiency that we should all work together to remedy. If you want really high quality health care for your mum who's really crooked, to be in a hospital where she's seen really well for as long
as she needs to be seen. For everybody else, you know, if you want a good job for someone who you care about, where they earn enough to be able to buy property somewhere and live comfortably and raise a small family or whatever. Just want that for everybody.
Yeah, why should that person that you know deserve that.
It's not a zero some game.
We can bring everybody along and up and we don't have to like hoard it all ourselves. And then the other thing is that, like not all help is the same, and so there's a couple of different kinds of help, and paying attention to the kind of help that you're advocating for giving or receiving will help. So some help is like cheering help. But I have to do the whole thing. So if I'm going to run a marathon, I have to run it from start to finish or
I haven't run the marathon. You can't run it for me, and you can't you can't pick me up and carry me. But what you can do is you can provide me with things that might help along the way, drink and something to eat, and you can cheer me on. And that's useful because that's all you can do in that context, that kind of thing I'm trying to do, that's how
you can help. Another kind of help is moving a couch and I can't do it on my own, and I need you to not cheer and bring me a snack, but jump on the other end of the couch, lift it up and move it with me. And in that case, that kind of help two people doing the thing together to actually finish the job. And if you stop in the middle, it's kind of useless. And if you cheer me on, it's useless.
And if you.
Help a little bit, that might be good and you run out of time that we may have made some progress, but I still haven't finished it. And this other kind of help is like a surgery, where someone with skill and inside who knows what they're doing has to do a job to fix someone or get an outcome. Now, if you do a half surgery, that's worse than no surgery. You can't just leave someone on the operating table in
the middle of it. And so if you start helping someone on something that's going to require all this assistance and knowledge and things to fix the problem and you drop out in the middle, you leave them worse than they were before, even though you've tried to help and go, oh, wasn't some help better than nothing? Not always? So is it a couch, is it a marathon? Is it a surgery?
Know the kind of help you're trying to give someone and know whether or not you're able to finish the job properly or you're going to give the adequate help. And then for almost every kind of help you're trying to give, people have more patience than you probably have. Drag the timeline out much longer, preferably no end date. Just don't put demands on people. Just be there and be ready to do whatever needs doing until.
It's done, and trust that they are a human peace agency and hopes and dreams.
It's not linear. People go forward and down.
And you know, if people want to get behind JB and you get in front of him, scare him. Where can we find you?
All? On the all on the internet everywhere, the Information Super Highlight. Yeah, the world Wide Web. It's one of the great one of the great innovations. So we're on the web. Jbanproject dot com. All my stuff, josh Rea Jones dot com. It's my name on everything as well, Josh Red Jones.
You're an excellent person.
You're an excellent person.
I want to talk next episode about all the.
Books you read, oh yea love to.
And the first question I'm going to ask you when we meet again, which will be sooner than a month, of course. Is your name is Josh, Yes, your brother's name is Israel. Are you jealous? It's one of the great names, one of.
The great blogs. I tell you, he's a ripper.
Aren't you lucky?
Very lucky?
I lucky, We're all very lucky to have you. Thank you, Chrissy Swan. You're an angel.
You are Love you