Hello and welcome back to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, Chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon. And I'm Caitlin, a Senior Consultant at Zircon and will be hosting the podcast today. Welcome back, Amanda.
Thank you, Caitlin. Thank you very much.
So today we're talking about belonging. What are your thoughts on that topic?
So I think this is a great topic to chat about today, Caitlin. It very much started with a conversation I had with Mary Kenny, who is the CEO of Eversholt Rail. Now, I really respect Mary as a CEO because of the culture she's created within the organization, the way the SLT engage with one another, and the way the business engages with the SLT. And throughout her time as CEO of Eversholt, she's talked about the importance of creating a sense of belonging in an organization.
She said very much that a leader has to start on the right foot. They have to onboard people with very clear communication and you have to make sure that they at all times know what is happening within that organisation in order to create that sense of belonging.
Yeah, I'd say it's also a pretty hot topic at the moment. Why would you think that is?
Well, people are talking about it more and more. And in fact, I was looking at an article by Perna 2021 that claimed that belonging is the most important important feeling at work for employees to experience. Because if employees do not feel like they belong, they're quite willing to move and find another position. And they see that the position is flexible because they want to seek something that's much more fulfilling and meaningful.
And in fact, a quarter of employees will leave if they don't feel they belong.
Yeah, I wouldn't say that surprises me. I can really see why that's the case. But do you have any stats to support that at all?
So BetterUp in 2020, they carried out a study of 1700 employees and they found that having workplace belonging results in increased job performance by 56%, 50% reduction in turnover risk and a 75% decrease in sick days. I think that's great data to show that belonging has a significant impact on productivity, output and performance. And of course, stability, because you want the right people to stay in your business.
Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that when I think about this topic in particular, I think definitely since COVID-19, people tend to be reassessing a bit more what it is that they want from their workplace, what it is that they want from their roles. And so the belonging piece, I think, fits quite well with that.
Isn't it interesting? I think COVID-19 had a huge amount of impact on the way we saw ourselves within the work context and what we were prepared to and not prepared to put up with.
And in particular, I think it had a real shift in the work-life balance percent as well it's become very much life work balance or life life balance in fact hasn't it we're much more intolerant I think of companies who are not prepared to be kind when they think about the fact that actually work is just part of our lives and existence is not the only part of our world
yeah I say that people are almost becoming more so the architect of their own life and when I think about definitely the younger generation coming into the workforce and how this is definitely really important to them don't know Amanda I know that we've watched that interview that's out there about the Gen Z who's being interviewed and the kind of approach that they take and they kind of make a big point about what the working hours will it fit around their kind of home schedule and everything
well I think the architect point is a really good point because from a really positive stance if you feel like you are in control of your career and your future then you're much more likely to feel engaged and you're much more likely to feel attached to the work that you're doing And in fact, all of the research that I've read in preparing for the podcast says that the more that we feel attached, the more that we feel like we belong either to the company or to the role that we're in or the
profession that we're contributing to, we are less likely to leave the organization.
Yeah, and I'd say another observation I've had is that, again, since post-pandemic, employees are, I guess, taking more time to reflect upon where they are dissatisfied in their job. Almost feel more willing to take steps to address that.
Yeah, I agree. And so in your mind, Caitlin, from your experience, what would you say changed for you during the pandemic?
Thank you so much. it's worked before and now it's not working for me. So yeah.
What's really interesting about this is our perception of what is right and wrong. And we just did a piece of research looking at psychological safety for people who work remotely, who are hybrid and who are in office. And I believed that people who are going to be working in a hybrid way might not be as psychologically safe as those people who are working completely remotely or completely in office.
My perception of that was because sense of feeling left out, and whether you're in the right meeting at the right time. And we found exactly that we found that people who worked in the office or completely remotely felt more psychologically safe than those people who worked in a hybrid way. And that for me was really fascinating.
And when we dug deeper and started speaking to people who work hybrid, it's because of the fact that there are often meetings, if they're in a hybrid situation that they're not face to face. And so they're They're not always completely involved in the conversation. There might be things that were said day to day by the water cooler that they miss out on. So they don't hear about company updates or changes that are afoot. And so it has a real impact on the way they feel.
What's really interesting about this is that from a belonging stance, we want to be the architect. We want to make choices. And that I think it's really interesting that individually we would choose for hybrid more than completely 100% in office. But the research has shown that we feel psychologically safer as employees. And there is a link between psychological safety and belonging.
If we are fully in office or we're fully remote, this hybrid, a bit of this and a bit of that approach isn't great for us, actually.
Yeah, well, I guess based on that, what would you say the link between belonging and psychological safety is?
I think the key is inclusion. For people to feel psychologically safe at work, they need to feel included. They need to feel like there's opportunities for them to speak up, which we know, to learn, to grow, to be innovative. All of those things are key to feel psychologically safe, but they're also key to feel like they belong. So there is a positive relationship between psychological safety and belonging.
But if you put that other piece in that we were just debating around choice and the fact that employees want choice, they're choosing the wrong thing because they may choose hybrid, for example, because it gives them flexibility at home and at work. But actually, what we're finding is that that has has a detrimental impact on their sense of psychological safety and their sense of belonging.
And so if you truly want to feel like you belong, you need to either be all in or all out because then there's greater clarity.
Yeah, I'd say the inclusion piece you mentioned is definitely a big one and I'd be keen to explore that a little bit further in a moment. But I'd say the other piece is around personal connection and actually that's core to our psychological safety model, of course.
Yes, as you say, personal connection is the foundation of our model. And the research has very much found that we can enhance an environment in terms of how people feel safe by making sure that people work with people who they feel personally connected to and with. And we do that by actually spending interpersonal time with one another. That is interesting because we get to do that when we're in office.
So that's why we found the highest level of psychological safety for people who work every day in office with one another because they have that personal connection. Interestingly, then it was remote because people make the effort in a remote environment to actually connect with one another on Teams or by Zoom and actually have conversations with one another. We have coffee chats, don't we, in stand-ups, Caitlin, in our business.
And so you have to make that effort, but personal connection is really important in psychological safety.
Yeah, and you've just made me think, actually, with a lot of the organisations that I've been working with, what I've been hearing is actually around the new joiners potentially coming in to a team when we've done psychological safety with them one of the areas that potentially has been slightly lower is the personal connection part and as a reflection when I've worked with those teams they found that actually it's invaluable to have those kind of tea and biscuit moments where people are coming
into the office and being around each other and creating more personal connection in that sense not just for the existing members but particularly for the newer members that come in and you know working from home for example you don't get that same chance to create those in-moment connections.
It's true. And the other thing is trust. So trust is also key to psychological safety and also foundation for belonging. And it's one of our core areas. So our three core areas of psychological safety are personal connection, trust and purpose. And so it's interesting a number of clients are now coming to us talking about the concept of trust, aren't they, Caitlin?
So we're going to be writing and thinking about a trust podcast for the future because it's a topic that our clients are talking about. and thinking about. So how do you create that sense of trust that everybody's got everybody's backs and everybody's intentions are good and honourable, either for the team or for the organisation or for the department?
Yeah, it's very interesting. And I think trust is one that comes up time and time again. A lot of the problems that I guess we go and almost diagnose, it usually does come back to an element of trust, whether it's between team members, individuals, or even from a kind of supplier to organisation perspective. One
of the reflections I'm really having on what you're saying there, Caitlin, is the environment of the workplace. Because I think that in order to feel like we belong, I think there's a huge amount about where we work and the actual physical environment that we're working in. Because the space we go to every day, we have to feel like we belong in that space as well.
If we're going to a basement room with no windows, as good as the people in it, you're never really going to feel like you want to belong in that environment. And so I know organizations have spent a huge amount of money investing in glorious places. I mean, I've been to the Google offices with a client many times and they've got the most incredible offices. And I'd like to feel like I belong in that area and that location, albeit it's a little bit daunting.
But actually, I think just for people to feel like they belong, it needs to be clean. It needs to be light. They talk about the high ceilings for the cathedral effect for innovation, don't they? So I think all of those things around environment are also key. So it's not just about the people connections it's about the physical connection with the environment and the location too which is just a reflection which I find quite interesting.
And now your reflection has made me reflect on there's an office I walked past on the way to the gym and I can kind of peer through the windows and there's kind of a slide that's in the office so I think that's quite an interesting one as well and it's very it's a fancy office they've got meeting rooms and everything it looks very fun but there is an actual slide that goes from one floor to another floor.
Have you ever knocked on the door and say can I come by your slide?
You know what I was actually outside walking past and I was saying something to the person I was with and there was someone outside having a cigarette and they heard me and they said why don't you go in and I got a bit shy and I said no no it's fine so the thought was there but I didn't. How funny. Yeah I feel like we've definitely had a nice conversation already about belonging but actually why don't we take a step back and talk about what do we actually mean by belonging?
I think we've covered quite a few things already it's a sense of connection it's personal relationships it's feeling valued it's about having positive interactions and about being authentic so being true to ourselves so they're some of the things that from our research really are key to feeling like you belong.
Yeah and there's some other research out there actually by Berkeley Haas Business School and they state that belonging is actually created by five drivers and they include the first ones around inclusive work environments so we've already talked a little bit about that and I'm very keen to explore that a bit further. Second is connectivity opportunities. Third is work-life boundaries. Fourth is organizational values and principles.
And the last one's around acknowledging and accountability structures.
Well, that makes loads of sense, doesn't it? Because we've already talked about inclusion. We've talked about connectivity and work-life balance. We haven't yet talked much about principles and values, but we know that people are attracted to organizations that are aligned with their values from our research. So that makes sense too. And then the acknowledging and accountability structures. I suppose that's really about clarity, isn't it?
It's knowing where you sit in the organization, what your career opportunities are, what's the succession strategy, having clearer visibility around pay, around role grading and so on. Maybe that's what that means. That would make sense because you'd want to have for it to feel like it's honest and... Transparent. And transparent, that's the word. Yeah, I think that's great. So no, they make total sense to me.
and I think if you have all those things it's really going to help businesses be much more diverse and equitable and inclusive I think because everybody will know where they stand which is great.
And I think from an employee perspective actually an important takeaway there is how these drivers make people feel and actually they allow for employees to feel pride and empathy and again going back to that trust in the working environment which then allows for a psychologically safe culture to be created amongst everyone and when people feel safe they're prepared to I agree. And I
think the research in HBR, Harvard Business Review, expresses this beautifully. And they talked about belonging being a fundamental human need that's hardwired into our DNA, which I think is key, especially if you think about all the research and focus on isolation and the impact of isolation on how we feel and our emotions and our whole mental well-being. I think it's fascinating.
fascinating that 40% from research from HBR do not feel like they belong and feel isolated at work, which can have a profound impact on their productivity, their engagement, and their likelihood to stay. So
I think it's really interesting how we've been thinking about it from both the employee perspective, but also we've been talking a little bit about from the organisation perspective. But if we were to kind of hone in to thinking more about the organisation perspective, why do you think it's important? And why should employers If
we want to make sure that we attract and retain the best talent for the future, we need to make sure that we give them the opportunity to feel like they belong. We need to think about the work environment from a people perspective and also from a physical perspective, so the makeup of that environment. And we need to make sure we're attractive to future employees and that they feel like they belong.
So that war for talent does still exist and employers are struggling to hold on to the very best talent. people because other organizations are very happy to poach them. So I think this is a really important topic for companies who are wanting to grow and wanting to retain the right people, which is pretty much most companies to be fair.
So how do we know if people feel like they belong?
I think people who feel like they belong feel like they are being seen or being heard or valued. And you'll be able to see that in their verbal and their nonverbal reactions to you.
It's very much when contributions are being valued and respected so when you acknowledge good work and when you recognize people's contribution we've talked a lot about connectedness so when you see people interacting with people organizing times apt to meet up outside of work or acknowledging each other's birthdays and special times it's also about when people understand the organization and the team the department so they have knowledge of that business and each other and also finally
considering the importance of organization values and principles that you mentioned earlier from that book has business school research it's all about people feeling aligned with the purpose of the team or the department because that has a massive impact on people's engagement and productivity
yeah that makes a lot of sense and actually you've got me thinking about different examples obviously how you know I felt and how other people I know felt about belonging and actually there's someone that comes to mind when I really think about this topic and about how they value belonging there's a colleague of ours Julie who she's an associate so she's actually living it up in the south of France but she overtly says how important belonging is to her and the way that she keeps on top of that
is through actively staying in contact joining our team events so it goes back to that kind of connectedness piece joining our Christmas parties and creating that sense of connectedness and from a contributions perspective as well she proactively asked to be involved in our kind of upcoming projects
yeah and that's both the paid and unpaid projects because she's now independent she was a director of course of Zircon many years ago and has been with us since 2000 when we who first created the business. And she absolutely, belonging is really important to Julie. And so we make sure we invite her to everything. So she feels like she belongs, which is lovely, but she contributes and has an opinion, which is brilliant when we're thinking about strategy and new ideas.
And we'll go to her as a bit of a sounding board. So I think it's a really good point that employees who feel like they belong at work are much more likely to want to contribute to that purpose, to the future and to create meaning for themselves and for another person.
So if you don't feel like you belong, you're going to disconnect and disengage and you're not really going to care but if you do feel like you belong you'll want to contribute to the growth and to the strategic future of that organization you're going to want to have a say and hopefully have an opinion which in a small business like ours that's really key
but what are some of the things then that may stop people from feeling like they belong
the research has shown that a lack of social bonds can really cause emotional distress and frustration for people and it made me think about a recent client who I interviewed for a piece of work that we're doing for an organization I'm not going to mention the company or this person because I think that would be unfair but this person really doesn't feel appreciated or understood or included or that their work is valued in any way as a result in all of that person's interactions with their
colleague they fight for their own patch they fight for acknowledgement they fight for credit and they very much put very big walls around themselves and the rest of the business and other leaders in the SLT because they don't ever feel like that that person doesn't ever feel included or invited in anything and doesn't feel like their work is appreciated or that they are understood and then outside of that person because I interviewed everybody else too they all find that person incredibly
frustrating because they say that they are defensive that they say the same things over and over and over again in all to be heard, that they are withdrawn, that they are sullen, that they are dogmatic. All of this is down to a low sense of belonging. And it creates a whole load of stress, not just for this person, but for the whole department. And it's a massive sticking point. And it's created rifts, actually, with other people, because you're either one side or another.
What's so interesting is it's created such stress that this person's even spoken to family members about it, because it's created so much anxiety for them and that really comes down to that sense of appreciation connection and belonging
well that's a really clear example of how it can impact the individual themselves but also the domino effect that it can really have on others
i know it's such a good point because for the individual it's really awful so much so that they're just literally grinding their heels in and feeling like they have to just force their opinion across the others and for the other people you're right it's not a great experience either and so that sense of inclusion that sense of belonging Yeah, and I also
think that example really makes me think of the link between resilience, belonging and psychological safety. We know that social support is actually a key pillar of resilience. You mentioned that that individual in the end had to feel like they reached out to their family to talk about these issues. And so actually ensuring you have personal connections at work is a key element here. here.
That's true because this person didn't feel like they belonged at work they were going to their family because that's where they have a sense of belonging and a sense of personal connection. How interesting that in my interview with them they felt it was important to share the conversation that they had had with their dad and the importance of what their dad had said about the situation. Now this person is similar age to me but it's been speaking to their dad so yeah very interesting.
And so I guess it's important for everyone to understand the impact of belonging. But obviously, if we think about it from a managerial perspective, what mistakes might managers make in this area?
One of the mistakes that they might make is confusing loyalty with belonging. Employees that are loyal are often loyal no matter how they are treated. But if an employee doesn't feel welcomed and is treated poorly, they're likely to be unengaged and eventually leave the organization and the team. They may even be actively disengaged. and be disruptive, but they will remain in that position for a number of years, potentially in a toxic way.
And so sometimes we can confuse loyalty with belonging, and we need to make sure that we focus not on loyalty, but we focus actually on belonging, that they feel like they're part of something.
So how can people seek to create a culture and environment of belonging?
So if you think about some of the characteristics I mentioned earlier when you asked me How do we know if someone feels like they belong? We said that they feel seen and heard and valued and listened to and that their contributions are important. Well, that's exactly how you create a culture of belonging. You listen to each other. That's a very good first step. You recognize accomplishments. You give people the opportunity to express opinions freely.
You make sure that those contributions are valued and that you show when ideas are being used and are contributing to an outcome. And you very much lead with encouraging people to be their authentic selves. You encourage diversity in the organization where everyone is true to who they are, not trying to play a role or trying to fit into this perfect structure of what a great employee might look like within an asset organization, for example.
Yeah, I'd actually add to that as well, especially with the first part of being about recognizing accomplishments. It giving kind of positive feedback and, of course, constructive feedback as well. But just being open and feeling like you can share your opinions freely, again, goes back to that sense of trust and creating trust.
There's amazing data on this, actually. When we were asking employees about the isolation, we said already that 40% of employees feel like they're isolated at work. And the data has shown that in the US, $8 billion is spent each year on DE&I training, all about the I, the inclusion. part because people feel excluded. So it's got to the case that we're now spending billions of pounds to try and help people feel included within organisations. And the key to that is truly about belonging.
Yeah, I'd say inclusion is definitely a big part. And in particular, the consequences of feeling excluded.
Yeah, I think it's horrible to feel excluded. I even remember things in my childhood when I wasn't invited to parties and things, which makes me very sad. Do you know what? It's crazy, actually, how I know It's kind of silly, isn't it? But you do have moments in your life when you realize you're not being included or not part of something that you would deem to be important. And so belonging is definitely that feeling of being accepted and respected in a team or an organization.
And inclusion is the behavior that you and I, Caitlin, and everyone else should be demonstrating and using to help someone to feel accepted and respected. Now, I love that quote. And that was from one of our interns, Callum, who did the research for us for the blog.
belonging podcast and I'm just going to repeat it because I love it so much which is belonging is the feeling of being accepted and respected in a team or organization and inclusion is the behavior that helps someone to feel accepted or respected and for me I think that's just the whole point of this podcast really
yeah and actually it makes me think of that quote that's around diversity inclusion and how diversity is about asking everybody to come to the party but inclusion is actually getting everyone in that party to dance it's so interesting and actually To add to that, I remember when I saw another article that talks about how exclusion actually hurts in a similar way to the pain of physical injury.
And neuroscience researchers actually concluded that whilst the brain does not process emotional pain and physical pain identically, the natural chemical reaction that occurs in the brain is very similar. And it also links to heartbreak as well. And we know how much heartbreak can have on people.
Super hurt. I know. And it does feel like physical pain, heartbreak, doesn't it?
Yeah. And so I guess the belonging piece, it's the same around the exclusion and that neuroscientific reaction that there is. But what is
the link between belonging and resilience, would you say? health, positive self-esteem, and all of this helps with us accessing those positive neurotransmitters that help us to feel good about ourselves. When we don't feel like we belong, then it's going to have a detrimental impact on our ability to access the positive neurotransmitters that help us to feel good about ourselves.
Yes, and actually the article that I read about the exclusion piece, it even did say that resilience is a key, they called it personality aspect actually, for coping with the effects of being excluded?
I think belongingness, I know we've just talked about it, skirted around this a little bit as a topic, but I just really think it's really key for organisations in terms of making sure that employees feel like they're part of something that's important, that they feel like they belong.
I know it's stating the bleeding obvious, that it helps with the retainment of the right talent, it helps with productivity and engagement, and it also helps to overcome some of those really tricky dynamic situations that have happened in one of our clients where it's ended up being really incredibly toxic because this one person doesn't feel listened to and doesn't feel like they belong or that their opinion matters and then more fundamentally if we feel like we belong we're more likely to be
physically and mentally healthy and resilient and to be able to cope with stress in the workplace which will help us to improve our productivity and performance of both individually and as a team so i think creating a sense of belonging whether it's a team is remote or whether they are hybrid or in office should really be a priority for organizations. And I'm going to start encouraging clients that I'm working with to think about this as a topic for the future.
How are they making sure that people feel like they belong and they're part of that purpose of that organization they're contributing and being listened to? Because I think that's going to be something that's pretty fundamental moving forward in the conversations that I have with my clients. So I think this research has been brilliant for me because I learned a huge amount from it but also I've adjusted slightly how I think as a result of this research it's been pretty cool.
Yeah I was just thinking there I would echo absolutely everything that you just said around encouraging people to talk about this a bit more because I know that we could probably talk for a number of more hours about this topic and our personal experiences and you know I'm sure you've had conversations with your friends and how they feel in their workplace so it's definitely one to be explored more because everyone's obviously craving for that sense of belonging and fulfillment in their work
they are thank you Caitlin that was fun I enjoyed it
yeah I think it was a really great topic so thank you Amanda for giving us the opportunity to explore it in more detail definitely an important topic
it really was and I wanted to say that all the things I just mentioned that helped me to adjust how I see myself and also see some of the conversations I'm having with my clients is going to give me a new focus which is great so thank you to Sharon Quinn and all of the work you did in preparing for this podcast and thank you to Callum Maddock our intern who added a little bit of extra research to the podcast in order to get us ready for today and thank you Caitlin for being my host thank you
Amanda thank you and thank you everyone for listening I hope you all have a fantastic and successful day