Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the strategies that make an impact. Let's get started.
Welcome back to The Chemical Show Where Chemical Means Business. Today we are continuing on our theme of sustainability and innovation. Green and bio. As we continue throughout the, the month of April and today I am really excited to welcome Dr. Charlie Landis, who just literally just retired as the Chief Technology Officer of Integrity Biochem. Charlie has a wealth of experience in the industry, 35 years in energy and chemicals, including at Halliburton, before joining and.
Starting really being part of the startup team for Integrity, biochem, developing the first generation technology and the second generation and commercializing it. And as we know, this whole journey towards sustainability and innovation is not easy. Charlie's gonna share some of those insights, some of the biggest questions and decisions that he and the team have to make. And that may be, great advice for you guys that are listening and more so. Charlie, welcome to the Chemical Show.
Uh, thank you Victoria. Thank you for your interest in IBC as well.
Yeah, absolutely. So excited to have you here today. Let's just start talking about you. What is your origin story? How did you get interested in this space of geochemistry? And more, right? I mean, you've been in doing this for a long time.
Yeah, geochemistry in itself was a new field in the last century, and uh, studied, uncommon mineral and realized quickly that it had to interact with water. that became an entire field called aqueous geochemistry in the late eighties and nineties that exploded into the geosciences. And it just interested me that the traditional geologic studies could be expanded toward dynamic applications in real time at the surface where the, you know, the civilization interacts with the natural materials.
And it just fascinated me from the day I, you know, I took my first pest in the class. I was able to pass the test, which also helps with the motivation, but it was career driven by a passion of trying to understand that, trying to
Yeah.
how these seemingly inert things react with something as dynamic as water.
Love it, love it, love it. Okay, so, so geochemistry, I mean, how did you even. Think about getting into this field. Is it, is it really that you were interested in geology and rocks? I mean, like, I don't know. I've yet to figure out how somebody does it, and yet obviously we need geologists. We need people that understand rocks and water and all this, this formation.
Well, I, I'll give you the solidifying story. I was, it was in the mid 1980s and I was watching, uh, American media, and they announced when President Reagan announced his plans for the Star Wars Defense Initiative. And I sat there as a graduate student trying to understand how we could use laser technology characterize rocks. That's what a
Hmm.
is supposed to do, is think of these. Seemingly disparate ideas and try to make value of them, and I drafted a proposal for my advisor and he turned that into a multimillion dollar, four year dissertation project that utilized some of the that were common at the time for the first time, to understanding how the organic and inorganic chemistry of the rock changes when you. Have a laser impinge upon that rock.
Huh.
incredibly nerdy, and I'm sorry if it does, but those are the types of things that fascinate a scientifically cur mind. And at the time I certainly had that. So
Yeah, I love that.
I could tell you I, I, they didn't make a movie called Inception about that moment, but that I wish I could have a movie that explained how I felt that night. I.
Yeah. You know, I think it's actually fascinating 'cause we all get sparked by something, right? And I do think this idea of kind of two ideas mashing together, that's where some of the greatest innovations come from. So you studied this and then you went off and you worked for Halliburton. Is that, did you.
no, I, I should give you my whole, whole
Yeah.
I, I have three degrees in the geosciences. I have a
Okay.
from Texas Tech I, my first job was with an oil exploration company called Orco Oil and Gas and their research facility, and I was there for five years studying the same rocks that are currently being exploited. Around the United States for unconventional oil and gas. then I was approached to take a job with a minerals company in Chicago looking at bentonite deposits around the world.
When I then, uh, shortly thereafter, took a job in Australia trying to use that expertise to take that material and turn it into a water treatment chemical. And when
Got it.
ha occurred, my parents wanted me to come home and I landed at Halliburton and I was there for 14 years, gratefully working in their laboratory, understanding how drilling fluids interact down hole primarily in the non oil field applications, but those properties and realizing the value of taking a natural material and turning into an efficient used for. Economic benefit in drilling, whether it was improved or recovery, more water production from a water well.
Higher geothermal properties when you had shallow geothermal heat loops, what whatever the range of opportunities were, they just basically asked us to design a fluid to solve that problem.
Yeah, And then you went, how'd you get to Integrity Biochem?
the best thing in life is to get that, shoulder tap by a friend and our CEO who had an original dream of having a vertically integrated, company that was something that he could control from the inception of the molecular design to the retail sale to a customer. And we spoke on the phone day just after work some we got on the phone and. Decided that we would do something like this if the opportunity ever presented himself.
And, we had, I don't know if you've interviewed Jimmy Jet, but he's our CEO and he was very good at explaining his original vision for the company. it just struck me as a great opportunity at my stage in my career to try something like that. was absolutely a wonderful, opportunity that I would not wanna pass up. I would advise anyone if they ever get that shoulder tapped to at least take the phone call.
it changed my life with respect to being able to take everything you've learned along the way and turn it into a, a vertically integrated, service oriented technical product supply company, which is what we have at the I.
Awesome. I love that. and you know, one of the things I like to say, and in fact you, you know that tap on the shoulder, what I always like to say as well is when opportunity knocks open the door.
You have to.
the door, see what's there and get ready to walk through. So it sounds like you did. So tell us a little bit about Integrity Biochem. 'cause I've had actually, uh, Mike Ver on the show a couple times in Chad Hall. but I always love to hear, your point of view and not everybody's necessarily familiar with the company.
Great story. Even in Cliff note form, it's a story of, technical excellence, commercial bravery. persistence, the type of things that, sort of the building blocks for success, we've taken a raw material that's been overlooked or, undiscovered or poorly considered or not considered, and turned it into a commercially viable product for range of applications. And we control everything from the.
Chemical synthesis of the molecule or the molecule packaging and delivery and use of the molecule through our channel partners in the marketplace. It's a fantastic little story of literally starting from an idea around a fundamental understanding of the chemistry and turning it and understanding how it can be used in the marketplace to create value for our customers.
Got it. So tell me more about this chemistry. 'cause I gotta be honest, I still don't really understand what it is. it's a bio surfactant. Is that right?
Well, that's one of our two core platforms. So we've,
Okay.
we identified a molecule that has unique capabilities in the sense that a polymer, but it's not as big as the other polymers that were used in the industry. In other
Yeah,
A thousand times smaller. Most of the polymers that are used are large, heavier, long, linear molecules or cyclic molecules.
physically like molecularly, it's a small molecule.
Right.
Okay.
And then there was a body of literature that came out that convinced me when I, when Jimmy asked me to evaluate the technology, there was a body of literature that came out that said that. In the 20 years while I was doing something else, the rest of the chemical world taught themselves how to change those molecules to make them even perform better.
And when we put those pieces together, and Jimmy and I realized from our collective experience in the industry that there was a need for what that molecule could be, uh, we decided to pursue the first platform, and that is encapsulation. Where we were able to make it like minerals or attract two minerals that would damage oil field production.
And if we could use that molecule correctly, we could minimize that damage unlock value for our customers that they wouldn't have be expecting otherwise with
Got it. so your first product and your first chemistry and first target market was really oil field chemicals, and this product does, does it let you produce more oil? I mean, what does it let you do?
It has two or three functioned at once.
Okay.
the reservoir from clogging up itself. If you can imagine, I dunno if you've ever been to a dam and you would see twigs come to the front of the dam before they go out, the drainage pipe,
Yeah.
a reservoir, those twigs pile up unless water goes out the drainage pipe right. So we keep those tweaks from ever reaching the, the draining point, um, drain pipe of that particular dam and allow more oil or liquids to be reproduced from that reservoir. So that's a form of what they call fines control, and that was an undertreated need in the oil field. That certainly adds value if you can control that over a period of time to allow more hydrocarbons to be produced.
Interesting.
and that's the primary use. And obviously that has application from everything from cat litter, dust control, to fines, migration on highway, on dirt roads, those types of things all are equally applicable in different environments. But the, the founding application was in the oil field, trying to keep those fines from clogging the port roads reservoir.
That's crazy. So it's crazy. That's really awesome. And when I talked to your colleagues at, uh, IIBC, in fact, Mike Ver, um, is one that he introduced me to you and he was just like, you've gotta talk to Charlie. He's the most amazing guy. Um, and he gives, he really is, you know what, it is such a credit when you've got people around you that. Love you, that lauded you, that really appreciate you. So, um, I, you know, kudos to you and to the IBC team.
'cause I do think, uh, you guys have developed a great team there and you know, you and Jimmy Jett, you were there from the origins, Mike and others credit you with identifying, developing this core chemistry. and you kind of talked a little bit about how that comes about, but you make it sound a little bit easy to be honest, you know, well, we saw this idea, and it worked. It's more difficult than that. I know it's more than difficult than that.
So what have you found to be really critical in creating that success and, and helping to develop that technology?
Well, there are some peculiar attributes of a good mind that require, that are
I.
to take something like that and turn it into, and I, I qualify as having those peculiar attributes. You have to be able, have to be able to connect disparate data sets and understand. Things that are not in the same zip code, but certainly could be a, a wonderful vacation if you experienced it all at once within two or three adjacent zip codes,
Yeah.
to you. So there was clearly the ability to understand that there was a market need. Jimmy and I have been in the industry for over 50 years We understood that that was a problem and we felt, we made a judgment that it was not being addressed adequately with the existing chemistry. So there was that obvious commercial need, and we understood be customers interested in solving that problem.
Yeah.
Then there was the unique chemical structure. You have to be able to recognize uniquenesses in everything that you do or the results that you produce from your scientific work. this chemical had a unique chemical structure. It was a lower molecular weight, linear polymer. And then lastly, I had the access to one of the best minds. I don't know if you've met one of our research fellows, a fellow named Dr. Ashoka.
Mm
trust him to understand. He explained to me how well they can manufacture this molecule in the 21st century. And then it became the final step was, does IBC have the manufacturing expertise and capital to make the product at scale? So those four things all
hmm.
answered and agreed upon to be readily available to go ahead and move ahead. 'cause we were putting our hard earned. capital and time and effort into the project. And once we came to that, it was a Harry Truman decision. I don't know if you ever read about Harry Truman when he
No, I haven't.
when he made a decision, he goes to bed and when he wakes up and he feels good about it, that was the decision. You never, you never look back. So that's
Yeah.
final key is once you make a decision around all the information you think you need, you don't look back. So we just, we just went about our business to do those things and get the job done.
Uh, and, and I guess, you know, to me it makes sense to a certain degree that, where IBC started was really the oil field because I do feel like there's a whole lot of. Cowboy risk taking that takes place. Right. And so sometimes it's, whether it's in your DNA or whether it's in, just the experience that you've got around risk and reward and the ability just to identify and take that risk.
That's half the story. So in, in the oil field, we are a, a risk taking group.
Yeah.
particular case, it was combined with, Warren Buffett's belief that you only invest in things. You know, I read Warren Buffett's, uh, newsletter every spring and one of the first articles was he only invest in stuff that he understands. And you, if you're gonna start and take a chance in this world, you might as well start with something you under, you think you understand.
So I put, we put those two things together and Jimmy and I and a couple other, the original founders, Mr. Bryce Parker, we all got together and said, this is something we can do.
Yeah.
And that's how it, that's how it happened. And it
Yeah.
and you're right, I, I make it sound, uh, much simpler. There were decades of scientific research. You have to be able to synthesize and understand the key parts of that, the results of those research efforts, put it together and bring those disparate data sets together and then decide what to do with it.
Yeah. What I think is interesting, Charlie, and this is just an observation, from, as you talk about your origin story in combining lasers and rocks and whatever, and figuring out that there's money there and this, and what you're doing here with IBC. I, I actually think there's like a unique aspect to your ability to not just do the science, but match the science up with money and customer value. 'cause that's often does not exist in the same person.
That's what creates conflict across organizations, right? When the researchers say, but this is the best molecule. Yeah, but nobody's gonna buy it. And so figuring out how to bridge the science and the market can be really challenging. How did you guys do that? I mean, so obviously it sounds like you kind of inherently understand that, but I think this idea that you create something I, I don't believe in the field of dreams. If you build it, there is no guarantee that they will come.
You have to figure out how to identify or how to create that market. How did that play out for you guys?
Jimmy and I both had, and Bryce and some of the other officers in the company had decades of experience understanding to manufacture and mixed chemicals one, one of the best untold stories. Of our company is our Chief operating officer who had never admitted otherwise one of the more talented people to blend water-based products. this is a water-based product and not that that was singularly the most important thing, but everywhere you turned in IBC.
We went down a checklist of things we needed to do, and Jimmy was a master at this. And I always say to people that, he would struggle without us and we would fail without him. Uh, this is where it really showed up. He was able to understand and put these pieces together. He had two or three pieces of information for me. He had his vast experience from the marketplace to understand the customer needs, and we have.
Clearly some of the highest quality people in product manufacturer who could give him the confidence to know that we could scale up this scientific phenomenon into a scalable product. from the idea through the manufacturer to the supply chain and delivering product is one of the skills that frankly beyond science. It's about your ability to understand commercial potential, and this is where the credit really goes to Jimmy and the team he has around him.
Yeah.
me, it was, for me, it was a very, I have to tell you the first decision I was
Yeah.
how easy it was going to be for me. Victoria, I'm gonna be honest now. This, this is, uh, something perhaps I shouldn't confess, but
like confessions. We could almost call this truth Confessions of the Chemical Show. How's that?
it makes it so facts. The general nature of what's needed to complete a, a process. We know we needed, we knew we needed able to keep these fines from migrating in the reservoir
Yeah.
encapsulation, which is our primary tool. Is a known solution to do that. Encapsulating things controls the movement and timing of movement of particles.
Yeah.
in our case, we had something that was in water. We knew the reservoir. There was, we were gonna be injecting, makeup water into the reservoir and we knew that we had a molecule that was likely to perform in that circumstance. And then we ran tests that the industry uses as indicators of that performance. And prove it to ourselves and prove it to the industry. So from my point of view, I had a world class synthetic biochemist, and Dr. Ashoka Midori. I had, uh, a, a known commercial need.
I had a primary understanding of what the minerals were that were causing the problem. So my checklist for success was shorter than Jimmy's, but it did allow Jimmy to say, okay, if I get that under control.
Yeah.
It sounds easier than it was, but it really draws from the experience we all had collectively around the a sizing up an opportunity.
was this technology or these products and the pro, you know, encapsulation, was that already taking place? So I know you said, you know, you guys recognized and the market knew there was an opportunity because there was a problem, and so you could solve for it. Were others already doing this? Were you able to, you know, kind of piggyback or follow the lead of somebody that was already doing it? Or is this completely new?
We were able to translate it from other areas of the industry. So encapsulation is used for other drilling app
Got it.
other different types of drilling applications, but not in the category of what was known as clay control. So we, we basically injected this. In a way that was unique. And I, you know, people have tried it in the past, but I think in this particular case, they didn't have the right ingredients. They didn't have the right size molecule, they didn't have the ability to, you know, engineer the molecule to perform the way we did. So we had the, we had some differences that allowed us to do that.
But yes, there we were, we were clever enough to draw from the history of other applications and bring it into our.
how much of this is luck versus, you know, kind of deliberate choices? And I, and I ask that and, and I ask that in a way because, it's really easy. A lot of times to identify new chemistries and to identify new products, right? Humans and scientists and, and people across the industry. We're creative. We can identify new things and in isolation, in a lab, in a notebook. As you're sketching out this idea, you talked about crashing two ideas together. Okay?
When you crash two ideas together, in theory, you can come up with something, and yet we know. It is not easy to implement and it's not easy to scale and take them to market. So, so just, you know, I, I ask that luck versus, not question, but maybe more importantly, what advice do you have? How could others be taking this approach and applying it successfully elsewhere?
Well, that, that is a challenging question. I, I will tell you that I personally never thought it was lucky that we were able to scale it up because I have, I have great faith in the people who run our manufacturing process. They're phenomenally good
Yeah.
at manufacturing water-based chemicals, and I, I. As investor and as founder of the company, that's one of our strongest pieces, so I, I will tell you, there's no luck. for a scientist to have invincible value, have to have a passion that's fueled by curiosity to constantly be on the lookout for particular, or, you know, unusual molecules that provide unusually or rarely obtained results. And that is a key thing. And then you have to be able to turn that into.
direct understanding how it may be applied for an industrial benefit. Those are the two things. you're not at a red light and someone doesn't beep your horn, turn left, that means you're not distracted in your subconscious enough to be thinking about the, some of the weird, unique, uncommon results of science that allows for an opportunity to be discovered. there's a certain element of that that some people will call luck. It was probably luck.
Jimmy and, and Charlie, although I'll give, I'll probably say it was more about persistence, but Jimmy and Charlie came across this molecule
Yeah.
no one had yet observed or examined for an oil field application. We, we just got the first base first, with this molecule for this application. I would grant some degree of luck on that, but I also know that luck was driven by a passion and a curiosity. Does look for a new molecule that's been bypassed. That had properties that people would recognize once you were able to confirm it for them, recognize as valuable. So on the scaling side, BBC's manufacturing capacity is second to none.
And I'm very proud to work with our customer service and manufacturing folks because of it. And on the scientific side, I think we're driven by a passion around our intent to explore a molecule that's been. To quote James t Curve to go where no man's gone before with this molecule. So there's a lot of that that I think would be ascribed to luck. But the reality is it's a luck driven by passion and curiosity.
Yeah, I love that. And I think that's right. I mean, I think, you know, the other thing is what prepare luck is when preparedness meets opportunity, uh, is one way of saying it in your case, you know, it's, curiosity and, readiness. Right. Just being, being ready to do more. Um. So IB, c. So we talked about, you know, kind of this discovery of the first generation technology and you guys are now working on second generation technology.
tell us more about that and what that is and how that, kind of builds on each other, um, and where it's going.
So that is, uh, the second of the two strategic decisions. I felt I, I was able to work with Jimmy to and ex and develop. Uh, it is the toughest decision in my professional life. I mean, achievement in the first days is a very lonely moment. And when you. Discover something. Whether you do it collectively or by yourself, you have to have the professional confidence to recognize what you've done.
Hmm.
in the spring of 2020, during year, the first days of Covid, a great young, scientific mind come into my laboratory and propose an idea to synthesize. category of bio surfactants. He's a, a wonderful young fellow who was able to recognize opportunity in a molecule that hasn't been seen, put together, assembled in a way to make a, a product that has not yet been developed in the industry.
That was during the covid period when we were focused on other things like company survival and product changes in our product mix. And we had to sequester him scientifically to synthesize and commit to the focus during those times, those unsettling times develop this molecule. And became our surfactant technology and that scientist now spawned an entire generation, probably two or three decades worth.
Of basic scientific research that allowed us to assemble the team that Jimmy's assembled today to diversify our company into this, bio surfactant space.
Got it.
that was a three to six month period of securing the focus of a great, young scientific mind to synthesize this molecule. In a way that we could present back to the company in a time when they probably wanted to talk about almost anything else other than covid. was an opportunity. It was, was a challenge. when you are a geologist and you are being asked to make decisions around a new chemical species. must draw from every resource available to you.
That's why I reached out to a fellow like Mike, I hope you've had a chance to talk to Dr. Dan Dur. He's a world surfactant, chemist.
Yeah.
then I had the folks in our laboratory, all trained chemist who gave me assurances that I could speak to Jimmy about something that we had discovered and now serve as the platform of opportunity for our company for decades to come.
Yeah. SS
but it was also among the most stressful things I've ever had to work
what, what made it stressful for you?
I have spent a lifetime looking at rocks and particularly shales in the unconventional rocks in the oil field, and like I could talk to almost anyone about those things, those materials. I had to, I've never performed a chemical synthesis to, to
Hmm.
I mean, I've made acid performed acid based reactions in my entire life, rocks and acid, all that type of stuff. But the type of chemistry that led to the discovery of our bio surfactant represented a step change upwards capabilities beyond our initial. Technologies that were used to build the company, basically forming these encapsulating molecules that
Yeah.
So all of that was an instantaneous challenge. It came to us quickly. wanted to manufacture it. And our, our emphasis is expedited, but careful, evaluation of our technologies. then once we began to realize the scale of the market that was. Available to us outside the oil field. added intensity. You wanted to succeed. You did not want
Yeah.
for the company, obviously. So it was all these things combined, the the covid year, unfamiliarity of the science, the opportunity that could quickly allow for a lack of focus. When you
Hmm.
company that's. Performing in a niche in the oil field, and suddenly we, you can see all these other markets in front of you with the opportunities they present. easy to get distracted and not focus on the things that could allow you to quickly, you would miss opportunities to quickly capitalize. all those things, in the weight of the world wasn't on my shoulders alone, those are the types of things you think about is how do I stay focused?
How do we move ahead in the best way forward for the company, and how do we do it in this environment?
Yeah, so that's so interesting. Um, I hadn't fully appreciated that because of course, as you say, you, you guys were working in some ways in your comfort zone.
Yeah.
And knew how to make that happen, and understood the market that it was going into an oil field and having that unique space. And then bringing in the bios, surfactants, new technology, new markets, new customers. And in a period of time when, you know, during Covid, I'm not sure anybody really wanted to innovate. 'cause in fact, a lot of people I talked to said innovation died for a couple of years. Right. Um, and certainly when you think about, application development, right?
So yeah, you can develop this product, but then convincing a customer
Mm-hmm.
maybe has to do a new formulation and has to go through the whole process of it, can be a little bit, uh. It can be challenging, and I know it, many, many people said that that type of innovation stalled for a couple of years. So, um, so that was a, a, a big bet for you guys.
an outstanding example an organization fulfilling the original mission of the CEO
Yeah.
and he bet on us, and we bet on us at a time when. Everyone would've been happy just saying, well, we'll wait a year or
Yeah.
didn't, we didn't wait. We were all over it. And the other aspect that I didn't touch on was, specialty chemical markets and the chemicals associated with those bring an obligation for intellectual property protection at a level even higher than what we've encountered with our first generation of product.
Wow.
we had to quickly engage, find. Resources, law firms that could help us quickly protect our discovery all at the same time. I mean, it was all sudden success
Yeah.
that made it some of the most inspiring, but yet challenging times in my career.
Yeah. I love that. And so, so let's talk about this because I do think when people are in this innovation space, first of all, recognizing what you need to do in a new market is sometimes not obvious, right? Because we base most of our decisions based on past history.
Mm-hmm.
and, you know, uh, as the financial guys would say, past history is no predictor of future success. And oh, by the way, as we record this, the markets are. Lord, I don't know what they're doing today, but you know, this is, this is just past the, the big tariff announcement of quote unquote liberation day. And markets have been in chaos, so I don't, um, I'm hoping it all comes back. We'll see. but, but anyway, the, this whole idea of, moving into a new market, we often.
Rely on our prior experience, and you weren't able to do it because it was completely new. So how do you, how do you navigate to know that you're making the right decisions around people around direction, around making that happen?
It's usually one of the most challenging aspects of the entire adventure because, normally. My success rate on decisions was well over 80%, and I can tell you I don't think I've added that high of an average on this one. Made the effort, you know, fail,
Yeah.
a lot of trial and error learning around each of those decisions. Let's, let's, then of course, you draw on your network, I'm sure Jimmy and I did, to start gathering people and building a team to help you learn and quickly catapult you or leapfrog process. The, the same building blocks. are used to identify a product for potential commerciality in the oil field apply to other markets.
Hmm.
have different context, different customer requirements, different forms of packaging, different cost base. You know, different, uh, environmental and regulatory compliance standards. These are things you must learn within the context of the market, but it is a value of applying templates. I, I'm not sure how familiar you are with product development, models and stagegate evaluation and those
Yeah,
all that, all that holds true. It's just us and for me in particular, gaining that context around the, the other new markets.
Yeah.
was again, where Jimmy shine through, where he is able to help. A team by bringing in folks who had that experience that made it far more a success story than a trial and error story.
So, um, Charlie, this has been a really great story and I could continue talking to you for a very long time. I think, If you were giving advice to a young Charlie Landis or a young professional who's looking to have the career success that you've had, what advice would you give.
Stephen Kobey publishes the Seven Habits of Successful People, I'm not going to recite those, but I would say there are three things that a scientist I know I could not have, progressed through my 35 years without. I think of them in hindsight, not at this, not at the time, but in hindsight, I, I call them for invincible value. As a scientist. everyone can be Albert Einstein, and you have to find ways of utilizing your skills.
Hmm.
so you have to come up with sort of core tenets that describe you as a professional and would be you would be characterized as a professional. And I the three. You certainly have to have expertise in some area of your scientific field so that people rely on you for at least that narrow or broad window depending on the scope of your study. As an expert to help solve problems, you must work with.
Experts in the field, colleagues in the field, you must read the literature, you must do the work and you must see it. in use. You must have this level of broad expertise. And then, and then, must.
Have a passion that makes you wake up without an alarm clock that makes you close a library on a Friday night if you're, I don't know if people still go to libraries, but in graduate school I used to get kicked outta the libraries on a Friday night reading about the stuff I was hoping to become, employed someday to do. And then, uh, you have to hope somebody beeps their horn behind you. 'cause you're daydreaming at a left turn signal.
Hmm.
Thinking about what. Some level of passion that makes your commitment insoluble over time. And then the one that I think is missing in American science at the moment is have to know how much information you need to succeed. And
Hmm.
two examples to help give people that perspective. The first one is, when John F. Kennedy decided that we were gonna go to the moon, uh, the moon there for. Eons waiting on the certainty of mankind to deliver someone to the moon and return them safely to earth. And that required certainty on everything they do. But in the oil field where I grew up, I had a great man who found a lot of oil say that, I don't know. Do you know about Poodle Bay in Alaska? One of the largest oil fields in America?
I, I am familiar with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
discovered with a fraction of the information, literally about two thirds of the information that was available at the time to
Yeah.
that discovery. somewhere in the middle, you have to get comfortable understanding, do I need virtual certainty around work for me to make decisions can I live with the. that you're gonna fail once in a while. You must have this fear of success. You must have a, a lower fear of failure than you have for joy, for uh, success. so in my world, I've always lived with, I feel like I'm prepared to make any decision with at least 80% of the information known to me. And that has worked 80% of the time.
So if you can get comfortable with where you need to be to make decisions for. Exploring your entrepreneurial spirit around your ability to succeed or failure. a key aspect you, you must be talented at, at something. You must have a drive when others are doubting you to proceed, also have to know where you are. With what you need to do to make a decision. How much information do you need to be comfortable that you can sleep?
Like Harry Truman did every night, he made a decision, and that is, I think, an unspoken secret of how you persist and succeed over decades and decades of a career.
I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. This has been great conversation. I. Yeah. No, it's been great. I've, I've really enjoyed this and I'm looking forward to, sharing this conversation with others and the Chemical Show Network. So thank you everyone for joining us today. Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing,
Thank you.
we will talk with you again soon.