This edition of the Chatterbox Redux podcast is brought to you in association with the Strong Coffee Company. More from them in a bit. Chatterbox. When the stars talk, they talk to Nick and Sue. Welcome back to the Chatterbox Redux podcast with Sue and Nick and today our special guest is Jackie McShee of Pentangle. This is Nick and Sue with Chatterbox giving you all you need to know about music. And now on Chatterbox UK, we're lucky enough to welcome Jackie McShee. Jackie,
hello and welcome. How are you? Hello, Jackie. I'm very well, thank you, Nick. Jackie, I know we've had a chat before. But just to get some of these listeners to be a whole batch of new listeners, especially on the number of stations that we're now on. I can see that you got involved with Pentangle in 1967, but... How did you actually get to that in 1967? Just take us swiftly through your childhood and music -wise how you actually
got to joining Pentangle. Well, I mean I've always been interested in music but I never thought I would actually be able to have a career. I became, well in my mid -teens I became very political and I joined CND and we used to go on the marches.
My sister and I, my sister Pam and I used to go on the marches and we joined what to us was the nearest CND, the YCND, which is the youth campaign for nuclear disarmament in Croydon and we met lots of people there and on the marches people used to sing and we used to sing and they said you two have got really good voices you can lead the singing and we were sort of a bit dumbfounded but then I met guitar players and we actually performed at a concert for War on
March and it was actually going to a club with my sister in London and walking through Trafalgar Square there were millions and millions of people and these two guys came up to us and said where are you off to and we said oh we're going up to this club and they said come down to the crypt in St Martin's in the field there's an exhibition down there and they were from C &A and they walked from it had been the walk from Jarrow which is a reenactor from the 1930s indeed the Jarrow
march indeed yes yeah and it was um it was C &D and all the unions and everything and there were these horrific photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and I was just appalled. I mean I knew about it but you know at school you're not taught any of that sort of thing. I went to quite a strict girls school and it was a very
classical sort of education that I had. You didn't really touch on politics unfortunately and it was a rude awakening and that's why we joined C &D because we just thought this should never ever happen again. And a lot of people played guitar. And I gradually started singing with people. And from this concert we did more and more in Groydon, somebody came up and said, you know, do you fancy getting together and having a bit of a sing? And he played guitar, which
was fine. And it went from there. And after that, I met another guy, a 12 -string player, who used to work in Watkins Electrical Music in Ballum. And he knew John Rembaugh and Bert Jones when they were still solo players. And we started out with other people as well. It wasn't just me. There were quite a few people involved in running a folk club in a pub called the Red Lion in Sutton. And John used to come down occasionally in Burt's. And Chris Aliff, the guy who I played,
he's a 12 string player. He used to go off every summer down to the south of France on North Africa busking. and he used to busk in Paris as well. And John Rembrandt came down to play one night and he said to me, you know, where's Chris? And I said, oh, he's busking down, you know, in Paris. And he said, I'm doing an album. Would you do some vocals on it? And I said, yes. I mean, I didn't really know what I was getting into because I really, I was so nervous. But anyway, he did
it and he liked it. And he said, we started working together. And Chris said, it turns out that this is what Chris wanted all along. He said, many years later, he said, I knew you weren't going to get anywhere with me. And I knew if I push you towards John and Bert, they'd snap you up. I must have been so naive. I mean, how lucky am I? I mean, he was a dear, dear friend. We lost him a couple of years ago. And he lives down in North Devon. And we all miss him. Of
course, John and Bert have gone now. I feel very lucky to be here, to be honest, Nick. There's a few people that have gone by the wayside. Yes. But, you know, there's still a lot of good people about. I mean, I can remember we did, Burt was doing a tour of Scotland and this must have been the winter of 66. I'm not sure if it was the
beginning of 66. or the end of 66 but I know when we got up to Scotland it was snowing because John said to me get some time off work and we'll muscle in on Bert's gigs so we just you know we did some floor sports and did some gigs with and sometimes playing all together and it wasn't till a few months later John and I were on a train coming out of Charing Cross and we were the train stopped and we looked at the festival hall and we said We're going to be playing there
soon. Oh, yeah. OK, fine. Anyway, so I'm starting a band with Bert. He said, you're going to be the singer. OK. I mean, it's so bizarre, really. I just drifted into it. Nice. I was very lucky. So that was 1966 into 67. 67, we actually see the formation of Pentangle by name, I believe. Yes, I mean John always had this thing about Pentango, he said King Arthur had one on the inside of his shield, which was supposed to ward
off evil spirits and keep him safe. So that's, and he was into medieval mysteries and stuff. And it was, we did rehearse, at the end of 66, we rehearsed with a drummer and a and I really feel awful because I can't remember their names. And when we all got back at the reunion, no one else could remember their names either, which is a real shame. But John was working, did some gigs on a TV show. I think it was called Gadzooks. And he met Danny. Danny was playing Julie Felix.
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And John said to Danny, do you fancy coming down? You know, we've got this group. We started a folk club. on a Sunday night, come Willow, we're rehearsing the afternoon, work out some stuff, if you fancy it. And he said, oh, okay, I'll bring my mate Terrell, he's a drummer, because they'd worked with Alexis Corner. So they were a really tight rhythm section and very jazzy. And that's how it all happened.
We used to spend the Sunday afternoons rehearsing stuff and play them in the evening, whether they were ready or not. Sure. But anyway, it seemed to go down pretty well. It was always packed out. And lots of people used to come down, which was really nice. Visiting musicians from America, like Paul Simon, that he used to come down quite a bit. And I met some lovely people, like John Martin, Martin Carthy. And I'm just thinking I've gone blank, as I do sometimes. It's a nice
thing, I think. Davey Graham, sorry, I could see his face and I just couldn't think of his name. But, you know, it was a very exciting time, to be honest. There was so much going on, there were lots of new things going on. Sure. Sorry, carry on, Jackie, sorry. No, I'm saying my nephews, who are now in their sort of late forties, we wish we'd been a bit earlier. You know, because you had the best music time. And of course I'm going to say that because it's when we had such
a great time. I was able to travel. I've been to America, Australia, New Zealand, all over Europe, Canada. I'm very, very lucky. Sure, absolutely. But there is obviously so much talent there as well. To achieve something like that, obviously there is a bit of luck and being in the right place at the right time, but you still have to have the talent as well and clearly in your case it worked because we were talking about 1967 then Jackie, but of course 1968 comes... and
pentangle start hitting the charts. Okay lower reaches of the charts but in those days we're looking at once I had a sweetheart AA side it looks like with I saw an angel 1969 got to 46 then we had light fright with cold mountain number 43 that we get to the charts later on early 70s I think number 45 and I think we've got another one somewhere but those positions in that era um for us all to get in the lower 40s it would have to still in those days sold 300 350 000
copies so you sold a lot of signals yeah honestly yeah yeah so where are the royalties whatever record company probably took about 90 percent and the rest was split five ways It was at least the performers that never got much out of the deal. Incredible, isn't it? Yeah, well, I mean... It's... I don't know. There's pros and cons. We did acquire a manager who took over, and his... His way of doing things was, like, divide and rule. He forgot that we all talk to each other.
Oh! He said this. Did he? He didn't say that to me. But he... He did really well with us. I mean, he took us to America. OK. And, you know, he got us some really good gigs. So I can't complain. But we did actually miss out quite a few roses. Oh, yes. OK. Sue, have you got anything to ask Jackie at this stage? Yeah, I've got a question for Jackie, but it's two questions in one. How did you come up with the name Pentangle and does
Pentangle mean anything? Well, it's John. John formed his own publishing company called Pentangle Limited and he wanted the group to be called Pentangle and so that's it and it's because his interest in Arthurian legends and because King Arthur had a pentangle on the inside of his shield. And there was stories about if you drew a pentangle on the floor and I don't know whether it would be salt peter, sorry not salt peter. If you drew a pentagon with whatever it was, and you lit
it, it would burn pale blue. It's a never -ending line. OK. Thank you for that. So the name came before the group, basically. Yes, John had it in his mind anyway. Okay, right, let's take ourselves to 1973 and there's quite a break there from 73 onwards for about eight years. I mean, were the group getting tired or did you all need a change? And tell us what also, not only why there was that long break, but also what were you doing
for those eight years, Jackie? Well, with that last year, the very end of 72, because Bert called me on New Year's Eve that night on the end of 72 to say I can't take it anymore and I'm going to go solo because I just need a break. And it was on the cards really. We'd worked so much, we were away from home such a lot. We hadn't even had time to work on it. We've tried to work on new material and I mean, truth be told, we were getting a bit sour. You know, a bit staid.
I think the passion for the music hadn't gone, but I think the energy had gone. We were in each other's pockets too much and I think we all needed a break. But John was really devastated and he said to me, I don't really want the band to fold. He said, shall we carry on together like we did before? And I said, yeah, I'd be happy to. So we did for a little while. Then John split up with his wife and he... started living with Sue Drawheim, an American fiddle player. He's been
playing with the Albion band for a bit. And he said, how about forming a new band? And John's love of medieval music, early music, was like the mainstay of the material. We brought in pentagon stuff because people asked for it. Things like Crucifster and Cold Mountain, you know, all kinds of things. We didn't do... but we were progressing through with early music and also the people
that were in the band. We had a cello player called Sandy Spencer that was on the, she was with us for a very short time and she was replaced by Sue. And then when Sue left to go back to America, John Molyneux came in. But it was... John was saying, you know, we need a name for the group. And I said, can't we just call it the John Renborn band or the John Renborn group? And he wanted a fancy name. He said, how about Stone Circle? I said, that sounds like Stone
Circle. I said, it gives people the wrong impression. So he said, no, you're right. OK. So we called it. It was the John Renborn band. But there was a John had met Tony Roberts. John moved out to Devon and Tony Roberts lived down there. Tony Roberts is a fantastic saxophone player. He plays anything that you could blow in, he played, and Northumbrian pipes. He's really a fantastic musician. So John persuaded him to join, and then he'd also met Keshaf Sate, a tabla player. And he
came in and joined the band. And it was just, it was lovely. It was a lovely atmosphere. It was very relaxed. And we just carried on doing the same sort of music, a lot more early music,
traditional music. blues and because of the lineup and the different instrumentation it was really not just interesting it was exciting so we did that for a long time actually there's um there's an album out um i'm trying to think what uh i've got it here ready in case you you asked me it's called it's the john renborn group and made in bremen we did a live recording in bremen the radio and somebody found it and the album has been released at the end early part of this year.
It was recorded on the 14th of February in 1978 and it's released on MIG and a German company. And that's on CD and can be downloaded as well I guess. I'm assuming so I mean I don't really know I don't even know if I'm going to get any royalties from this one. I need to get in touch with a record company. They did come ask me to do the liner notes, which I did, and they asked me to approve the graphics, which are really nice. But that's apparently doing really well.
Now, this is as the John Renborn group, is it, this live gig in 1978? We're taking a quick break to talk about the fuel behind today's episode. If you're like me, coffee isn't just a morning ritual, it's a necessity. But let's be honest, the traditional coffee cycle usually ends up in a mid -afternoon crash or those caffeine jitters that actually make it harder to focus. That's why I'm so excited to share that this show has brought you an association with the Strong Coffee
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to thestrongcoffeecompany .com or simply go to the show notes below and click on the link there. That's CBUKRDUX to guarantee your 20 % discount. By buying this product, you're not only supporting the companies that work with us, or just supporting the channel, you're also joining the Chatterbox community's commitment to the environment. 1 % of all commissions are donated to the Stripe Climate Program to help remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Jackie, tell us a couple of songs from that live
album that jump straight into your mind. Right, well, there's a song called A Maid in Bedlam. That's why they've called this album A Maid in Bremen. There's a few pieces by John, instrumental pieces with John and Tony and Kesha. to have a look. We recorded William Winsbury, Cruel Sister, Kokomo Blues, Death of the Lady, Western Wine, Sweet Potato, which is an instrument of John Barleycorn. I mean, Tony had a good voice too, so the three -part harmonies, and when Sue was
singing as well, four parts, it was lovely. It was so nice to sing with other people. Sure. No, of course, yes, of course, because you had been basically, pentangled, the lead singer, hadn't you, as far as I'm aware? Yes. For the stuff I've heard, anyway. Yeah, John did a bit of harmony singing some of Burt's songs. He would sing his own songs, or ask me to sing them, and
I would do harmonies like Burt sang. But to actually do three -part harmonies, you know, and work on stuff as a singing group was very different. Well, it meant I wasn't like, just on the spotlight, you know? It's like, I'm not a very good front person, to be honest. I'd rather sort of sit at the back. Well, I would never have guessed that, never have guessed that. Jack, if these years are right, 1981, it looks like Pentangle actually reformed... with that name, like a second
or reincarnation of Pentangle. I know John Renborn's there. You're at the front, lead singer. So yeah, who else joined you on the sort of the Pentangle Mark II, perhaps we could call it? Well, we did. The original band got together because we'd been given a Lifetime Achievement Award by BBC2's
Folk Awards. Nice. when we all got together I mean we couldn't stop talking and we were reminiscing and it was just so funny and it's how each of us had remembered the same something that had happened and we all remembered in different ways and it was really funny but then it was put to us that it might be nice to do a tour so we did a tour in 2008 and we went to Australia, a tour of the UK And it wasn't really... John wasn't really happy. He wanted to go back to college.
And he went to Dartington. He wanted a music degree. So he decided to leave and Mike Pigott came in. The great fiddle player. Violin player. It's the hot club jazz. And he's fairly local to me. So he joined and he'd worked with Bert anyway during that... when Pentangle weren't together. He'd worked with Bert and with Ralph
McTel. And he stayed for a couple of years and I think we had Rod Clements for a bit And then Peter Kertley and he was he stayed for the longest So Terry Danny left after we did an album called open the door, which I think is going to be released streaming Okay, and we did an album with the last one that Terry did was called In The Round, and that's going, I think it's at the end of this month, it's going to be streamed, those two albums. Brilliant. I'm trying to get back
to what I was talking about. Oh yeah, In The Round with Mike Piggott. Yes. Now I've sort of teamed up with Mike again over the last couple of years, we've done a few things together with Kevin, which has been really nice. But then with Peter Kirtley, When Danny left after he opened the door, Nigel Portman Smith came in because he'd been working with Bert in a trio called Conundrum. Okay, nice name. And with Martin Jenkins.
It's all quite incestuous really. Nigel is a great fretless bass player, really nice, and a lovely piano player too. And then he replaced Danny and then Jerry Conway came in to replace Terry. Terry was on in the round. After that he left and then Jerry came in in 86 I think it was. And we just carried on recording, travelling to America, travelling Europe, just doing the same sort of thing but not on such a high level.
Sure. Now, you came on another radio station and had a chat with me before Jackie, and we spoke about an album that had been released, I think been out for some time, and we played a few tracks off of it as well. What was that album? Can you remember what it was? It's already been released. It wasn't the one I did with Kevin, was it? Not sure. I'm not sure. I'm wondering. I think there was some, I won't say there was
some, John Redborne was on it. And I think it might have been even John Redborne group, perhaps. Well, I think John had loads of tapes. It might be this album that you're thinking about. I think it is. John had loads of different formats of recordings that he and I had done live and he kept saying we must put this out as a duo album
because we'd never done a duo album. Then he promptly went and died and then his son took it, got it together and put all the formats, mini discs, tapes, reel -to -reel, cassettes, you know, different formats. He went into a recording studio and put it down into format for a CD. And David Suff, who was with Topic Records at that time, knew about this. He said, I've been out waiting for this for years. John kept saying, promising me to get all the stuff together, but
he never did. So it's been released. I think it was about then it was released. Yeah, I'm just doing a search here. 2016 finalian evening with pentangle topic records. Maybe that was it. Maybe, maybe. Maybe, but that was, um, yeah, finale. And there was the box set, of course. But this one is just John and myself. And it's recordings from over a period of time, you know, quite a large period of time. It may have been
that. Okay, obviously I've learned it isn't do a polish up and let's get anything that Stevie can send me anyway So don't you know, it's it'll be a very polished interviewer which they always are I've got I've just looked at the discography and then at 2021 I think you mentioned one of these but there's I see there's four LP reissues here for the pentangle, Baskets of Light, Cruel Sister and Pentangle. It's all on Renaissance record label and all for release this year. So
that's quite a lot of activity. Oh really? I don't know anything about that. Well there you are. So if you go to Wikipedia, Pentangle Bands, go to discography, scroll down to the LPs and that's there. So yeah, there you go. So I was going to congratulate you. Sorry you don't know
anything about it. pentangle all the old stuff he's gradually getting in I say newer stuff but when once Danny left and then Terry he's checking up on they said we just stream them he said because it's out there people are playing them and they don't own them they don't know the rights to them he said you should have the rights to them and I'm thinking well yes we should I mean Bert's sons and his grandson they will benefit John's sons and daughter will benefit it's all done
it's all above board and it's all done a sick operation. Well, nice. So I will therefore, Jackie, congratulate you on the four reissues of the pentangle LPs. Jackie, well, I hope next time that we chat, it is when you're just about to commence a world tour that includes Italy. We're fingers crossed for that. Sue, have you got any more questions for Jackie? No, babe. Jackie, if you could tell, thank you very much, of course. Could you tell our listeners? about where they
can find more about you. What website should they look at? And also mention Facebook groups, pages, anything you've got, if you could let them know it now, please. Well, my website, you can go on www .jackymuxxi .com. Perfect. Nice and easy. I mean, there's loads of websites out there that claim to be my website, but they're not. If you look up Jackie Muxi, artist. That should get you to the right one. Perfect Jackie. And also there's Kevin Dempsey's which is www
.kevindempsey .com Jacky, it's been an absolute pleasure again and I'm going to really enjoy editing this and putting the songs in. It's going to be fantastic. Jacky McSheath, thank you so much for coming on Chatterbox UK. Thank you very much Jacky. Thank you very much Nick. It's a pleasure as always. been listening to the Chatterbox Redux podcast with Sue and Nick and today our special guest was Jackie McShee of Pentangle.
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