This crowd rises to itspeing, what Carl slam it out? Carl left wing free ball perfect?
Then he left block the shot at the rim? How with the left hand and a fowl.
Welcome the Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Caves media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV, including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost and no commitment. Try for free at foubotv dot com
slash Calves. Well, we have allowed for some time for the season to marinate, for us to process our thoughts, to get our minds right, to talk about the Caves for the rest of the off season. And I feel refreshed. I feel ready to be back at it, and I am glad to be joined by my co host, Carter Rodriguez.
Carter, how you doing, buddy?
Uh? Not feeling that refreshed after a week of travel and another week of travel incoming, but nevertheless, I have gone through my morning process. I have a lot of you know, been just marinate and on the season that was definitely I'm excited to talk about it.
You know, you might still be processing. You had a busy week, you didn't win an Emmy, but you know, and I still think I still think being nominated as cool as hell.
But we do have some awards for.
The Cleveland Cavaliers that came down the pipeline, Donovan Mitchell with.
Someone's got to win some let me tell you.
Donovan Mitchell won first Team All NBA. No surprise there. Evan Mobley is officially an All NBA player with a second team win for him. Darius Garland did not make the cut, but he was nineteenth in All NBA voting, so you know, kind of officially in that top twenty for All NBA voting.
Really impressive stuff.
No surprise there, but it still is nice to see, you know, after we're sitting there the season is over, just a reminder of how good these guys were for the year.
Do you think you a trophy for All NBA? That feels like a plaque? That's a plaque, that's definitely I just got a feeling. Yeah, that feels like more of a as a plaque a trophy.
You know, who's to.
Say it depends It depends on how badly you need to claim that you have a trophy. In my opinion, I've got some plaques. I've got some trophies. I'm more proud of the plaques, so I'm going to count them as a trophy. In addition to them having those awards announced, we did get Kobe Altman's end of season press conference. I always find those to be very helpful. It feels like a couple of years in a row where Kobe has come out and said something and the media has
gone I don't really believe him. I don't know if this is going to be how it plays out, and then he does exactly what he said. So I think some of the highlights when you look at that end of season address was kind of what we expected, which is he anticipates that the core four is going to remain, the team is comfortable with their position going into the second apron if they need to have the backing from
ownership to do that, which you know we expected. I think the realities of Evan Mobley getting both Defensive Player of the Year and All NBA was going to make it nearly impossible to do some of the creative accounting to get under that apron. But the nice thing is those are fixed contracts. If you are someone that looks ahead to kind of those team charts as the league salary cap increases these next couple of years, getting back under after a couple of seasons might be more feasible.
But I think the reality is that the Cavs are going to be a second Apron team heading into the new league year.
Yeah, and I think you're spot on kind of calling out that, you know, everyone thinks Kobe's playing like five D chess with these pressers, And I do think this team has kind of been for the you know, it's it's been interesting seeing their development over the years because early on they were like the curveball team, the whoa they train for Andre Drummond, whoa they traded for Jared Jared Allen, like you know, all the you know, even the woe they traded for Donovan Mitchell or Larie Markinen,
Like these all these transactions were things we had no idea were coming. So I feel like they kind of have the reputation as a wilder front office than they've operated as the last three years. Like all they've done is exactly what they told you they were going to do that. You leave the next series saying, hey, we need shooting. Shootings are number one thing. They go signed Struice and the Yang. They leave last year saying we think we were just banged up. Sums heart two years
ago now sucks. That's not last year. Uh two years ago now, and they say, ah, we're banged up. We really believe in this group. We're going to go find a coach that believes in this group. And then they ran it back literally, you know, and brought in a new coach. So they did exactly what they say they were going to do. So it does ten just you know,
stand a reason that they're gonna do this. Even like the DeAndre Hunter acquisition mid season, if you're paying close attention, you could see the science that wasn't like a whoa, they're gonna target a big wing like DeAndre Hunter.
Honestly, it was very similar to Karslavert, right, Like we got like two months of lead up of hey, they're probably going to target krosel Avert because they're down calling sex and they're down Ricky Rubial and this team desperately needs both a scorer and a ball handler, and he's not the same scorer as Calling Sexton. He's not the same ball handler as Ricky Rubial, but he's kind of that fact like he's going to be able to split
the difference a little bit there. So, you know, heading into this offseason with the realities of being a second Apron team, I think it's important for people to understand you are not able to aggregate salaries in a trade. You are not able to combine two players in a deal to trade for one unless that trade is going to get you under the second Apron at the end of that transaction. The realities is I don't think that the As are looking to combine multiple high salary players
for a low salary player to cut costs. I think that the Cavs are probably motivated to become a better team, and from my standpoint, I'm open to ideas. I am open to whatever, you know, team building things that the team is able to find. But I do think the realities of, you know, really only being in a position to do those kind of one for one swaps makes me feel like the opportunities to make this team better do not involve trading the core four players. Because we
know Evan Mobley is going to be back. We know Donovan Mitchell is going to be back. Those guys are all NBA players and they are awesome.
Why would you not want them back?
Then you look at Darius Garland and Jared Allen, I would certainly, you know, Darius be nineteenth in all NBA voting him being an All Star and also being on a very affordable contract. I can't see a one for one swap where the team gets better. Zach lowisurizing, Hey, you know, if they want to cut some salary, the Orlando Magic should be desperate to trade Jalen Suggs and
a ton of assets to go get Darius Garland. One, if you are the team that is being targeted by a desperate team trying to get better, you're not getting better in that transaction. And then two, Lowe was sitting there being like, oh, that's not really a discount because Darius having signed the contract years ago before the salary cap inflated. The types of players that you see at
that point are role players. They are you know, you're Jalen Suggs, who's a very high end role player, Drew Holliday, who's an aging vet you know on the way down, Like I just don't think that there's a lot of opportunities to get better in these one for one swaps. So I am perfectly comfortable if something were to materialize where that's the case, but just looking at it realistically, looking at spotrack to try to figure out, okay, well,
what's even out there. I think the safe bet is what we heard Kobe Altman say, which is the core four players are still going to be back.
Yeah, it just kind of tracks as such. I mean, Jared Allen is the guy who kind of gets thrown around the most, and I get it.
He ended the.
Series very, very poorly, as did many players. He is the fifth highest paid guy on the team per spot track.
You know, like.
Those you know, if you're looking to get a star back in a one for one deal, Like I mean, it gets pretty complicated pretty quick to try to get there.
You know, uh uh.
There are some interesting constructs or you know, some interesting things that you can look at, but like at the end of the day, it's just a little too complicated to make a change trait like that. And I do kind of expect the starters to be back at this point or you know, the the really the top six of the and.
I expect, yeah, we might not know who the starters are. Like, I still think that, you know, there's a case for DeAndre Hunter to be the starting small forward. It's something that I'd like to see at some point, but we'll get into.
Kind of what would need to occur for that.
But I do think my anticipation is that the top six is going to be back. And you know, I tweeted this out last week as I was kind of going through my thoughts and whatnot, where people will talk about, you know, moving Darius for you know, a role player or two, like, let's try to get a wing player.
Let's try to do this one.
Having seen what the load on Donovan Mitchell's body is when Darius is out of the lineup and how that affects his play, I think it's just so clear those two guards make each other better and two for if our goal is to keep Donovan Mitchell healthy and you know productive when we need him, increasing the load on him is not something that I am rushing out to do.
And the other thing is, you know, people talk about small backcourts and how few examples they are there are in NBA history of those types of teams winning at Championship one. I think that's valid. It's part of why we have said Evan Mobley needs to be that guy for the cast if they're going to get over the mountaintop. But as few examples as there are of that, you know, Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, I think would probably be
the most recent one. As few examples of that there are of that, there are zero examples if you look at the last thirty forty years where a team has traded a current All Star for a role.
Player and that was the move that got them over the hump.
I defy you to find a single example of that where you know, someone coming off an All Star season was traded for a role player and that's what made them better. That's one of those things that sounds good on paper, it just doesn't make any sense.
It has not occurred. It is nonsense.
So from from that standpoint, I think, you know, people are going to find their scapegoats. I subscribe to, you know, the thinking that what happened against the Pacers was a team wide failure, right like everybody had something that they could have done better in these instances to change that result. Even with the injuries they had. I still believe, even with the injuries they had, if they executed better, if they show that mental toughness, I think that they could
have won that series. But you know, I just don't think that that is a productive conversation to have. I'm open to examples, but I just don't think there are.
Any No, no, there aren't.
You know, you're gonna have to get creative, and like I do kind of get that argument from those who want to see change, like they don't just want to hear no, not possible. You know, I do think the front office should be, you know, looking creatively as they can, trying to do as many unique things as they can. And this is a front office that's done a nice job of that historically, so you know, you have to give them. You know, I'm open to I'm open to
interesting ideas, you know. I think that's an it's an important point to make when you are kind of advocating, like I mean, I think we're both generally running back advocates here, you know, at least, and that's partly because we've looked at what options are a vision. I think that's that is the important distinction here, is we're not It's not because we don't think things could be better and that the team could improve and things like that. It's just that we can't find it figure it out.
And like I do pretty firmly believe, especially like at the level of analysis we're at where you know, we're literally you know, talking about this team all the time. We're not you know, a casual fans watching a couple of games a year, like when you're in our seats.
I do think if you're going to criticize, you have to come up with a better idea or a thing you believe in more, you know, like, which is why you know, like in an on court example, I felt comfortable, you know, criticizing the the way the Cavs initiated offense because I said, hey, here's three things I would have done different, you know. But if I don't got those three things I would have done different, I'm just not super inclined to, uh, to criticize an action or or
you know, you'll do something yeah, in any context. So like I do think that that is all important context to add. I do want to ask you, though, buddy, does it matter? Does it change your tune a little bit? Seeing that you know Indy's just ripping through New York too, in terms of feeling like maybe they like, you know, a healthy New York team really doesn't seem to have a ton of great solutions for the Spacers team either.
And I know neither of us were that high on this New York team, which I mean, I feel like we have to eat a little crow on that too, because they did beat Boston a little crow, not a lot of crow.
A little I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.
Oh that's a great point, but like I do, you know, part of me does feel like just a little bit like, well, you know, you lose the series by like seventeen net points, and you know, honestly, I feel better, Like I feel feel like percent better.
That's how I feel.
What I said at the start of calvs. Pacers when we were doing our preview with Tony East, I said, I think Indies by far the third best team in the East. Like I think they are dramatically better than New York. They actually had a winning record against winning teams. I don't think the Knicks are that good. I think the Knicks were a call away from losing in the first round. Jalen Brown playing on a torn meniscus, porzingis not being able to breathe, Hateum tearing his achilles, and
Drew Holiday just being old. Like, you know, even if you look at the shooting data, no team played worse three point defense than the Knicks against the Celtics. They gave up when you look at the wide open and open threes, they were giving up forty eight wide open threes a game against Boston, Like, sure you know that that's I if anybody told you that that's how you beat the Boston se Celtics before the series, I want to give them a pat on the back. But that's
not how you do it. And I think you've seen that in this series against Indiana, where you know a healthy Pacers team is going to pick apart your weaknesses defensively. And I laugh at Nate Jones tweeting out the other day, I just think the Knicks need to add another big wing.
That was some good work out of you.
Like, honestly, when people talk about adding wings, the apex examples of three and D wings that you find in the NBA that are below the All star level, or Ojan Andobia and mckil bridges.
They have both of them, and that.
Lineup is giving up a one forty eight defensive rating against the Indiana Pacers. Know what the Calves starting lineup gave up as a defensive rating against the Pacers one oh seven, Like you know it's It's the example everyone goes to because big wings are the most valuable thing that you have in the NBA. From a Calves standpoint,
I would love to have a big playmaking wing. That's why last offseason, when you know the ideas of trading uh like a Jared Allen trade for someone like Brandon Ingram, It's risky, but I was open to the idea because he's a big playmaking wing. Those are so hard to find.
From a Calves standpoint, and really from any NBA team standpoint, the goal when it comes to team building is find the best talent that is available to you that you can actually go out of acquire, that you believe fits together in a way that allows them to be better than the su of their parts. And I think that the Cavs have done a really good job finding the best talent.
That's available to them.
I still think getting over the hump is going to require them doing some soul searching and finding ways to be better than the some of their parts.
And you know why, I know you're right about this because I watched the Indiana Pacers play Tony Bradley for fifteen minutes last night, a guy who couldn't play for the Utah.
Jazz two years ago.
Like basketball is just not I mean, yes, talent acquisition is part of it, but so much it is about the cultural the culture you build, the system you run, and the way your stars empower everyone to do their
to make their jobs easier. I always go back, I'm sorry to interrupt you on this, No, I always go back to what I was saying mid season after they acquired DeAndre Hunter and he fit in so seamlessly, was it's easy to play Cavaliers basketball right now, Like if you're good, if you're good at something, it'll look great on that Cavs team in February and March. And you know, the biggest thing that has happened in almost all these playoff series so far is that it stops looking easy
and fun to play Cavaliers basketball. And to be very reductionist, I always love our boy Ben Cox, who is a believer, who is who is a great listen to the pod and also wishing all the health to Ben. He always tweets it. Every time things get muddy, he always tweets they lose because of their often like like and it's so much of it is that identity. Is that maintaining of putting pressure on the on defense, Like that's what you need to do at the end of the day.
Yeah, and I totally agree.
And I think, you know, from a team building standpoint too, right, like we use the core for a shorthand. I do think that it's important to kind of make a distinction. Like, wait, when I'm thinking about who the most important members of the Cavs are, there are two that earned all NBA honors and one that was just on the fringe that were All Stars, right, Like I think that Garland, Mitchell and Mobili that's just it's a half tier above, right.
And Garland and Mobley in particular, they're still young, they're not even in their primes yet, right, Like Garland's twenty five, He's starting to get to that point of physical maturity. Mobley's a couple of years away. But the realities of you know, the situation that they're in is I just don't think that there's a one for one trade for Jared Allen. Like, Jared, you look like next year's salary sheets on sports track. He's their fifth highest plane player
on the team. Like, it's really hard to find a one for one swap that's making the cast better. So I think when I look at how the cast can get over the hump, right, we understand the internal development parts. I think we're going to get into kind of some of those mental toughness aspects, the maturity that needs to
come from this team what they need to do. But from a you know, roster building standpoint, I'm assuming that the top six will be back, and the question needs to be, with limited ability to shake up what the rotation is, how can we change the way it feels
to play against the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that that question is what needs to be answered when you look at guys you know, seven through ten in the rotation, that needs to be the in my opinion, that's the question that the front office needs to ask themselves is how do we change either from a schematic standpoint, from a rotation standpoint, from a person now own standpoint, from an execution standpoint, what can we do to enhance what
our strengths are and make it feel different to play against the Calves.
Yeah, it's spot on. They just have to get better. And that's why I'm so glad that Kobe really hit on mental toughness as the sighted leap and mental toughness being the more important distinction than physical toughness. Yes, you know, uh, I think that is something that is you know, you you've made all the all the excellent points that Calvs won, most of the physical indicators, physical markers from that series against Cindy. They wanted the offensive rebound battle, they won
in the paint, they wanted the free throw line. You know, do you want some stats that kind of back up that point, because go ahead, you know, I do think, you know, I understand people here during toughness as one of the main takeaways, right Kobe said, A Donovan SAIDA Darius said it like it's been the common refrain. I do think that there's a distinction. Like to me, what they are talking about when I hear them, you know, go in depth is mental toughness, it's maturity.
And I think maturity is the word that I would use in that instance. But I understand, you know, they feel frustrated in the moment.
I get it.
But people saying, you know, it's the same thing all over again, it just isn't founded in reality. This is not the same as two years ago in against the Knicks. Actually it kind of is a little similar to two years ago against the Knicks because the New York Knicks in the five game series against the Calves from an offensive rebound standpoint, they won seventy five to forty six. That is a plus twenty nine advantage on the offensive glass.
The Calves versus the Pacers, the Calves had seventy offensive rebounds, the Pacers had thirty five. That's a thirty five offensive rebound advantage. The Calves beat up the Pacers on the offensive glass by a larger margin than they did against the Knicks did against them two years ago. Do you want to talk points in the paint? The Calves outscored the Indiana Pacers two sixty two to two thirty six. That is a twenty six point advantage and points in
the paint. The Knicks versus the Calves had a sixteen point advantage. They beat up the Indiana Pacers by more points in the paint by a larger margin than they did against the Knicks. So that's offensive rebounds and points in the paint. And I personally am like, I was disappointed with how Jared played in Games four and five, But people focusing on rebounds because it's like, you know, the gotchas Dad, That's not where the Calves lost the game.
That's not where Jared disappointed me with his performance. To say it's the same thing as the Knicks is nonsense, especially for a guy in Jared Allen that averaged seventeen and fourteen against a much larger, more physical Orlando Magic team last year before a broken rib. It's nonsense. It's important to make these distinctions so you don't sound like a lunatic when you're making these points because the facts do not line up up with what you're saying.
Yeah, by the way, all those Knicks to Pacers stats are funny because not only are they good on their own, it's really hard to do that in a series in you know, to win those stats in a series you lost, you know, like to show me where the three point shooting went? Yeah, no, kids, And also how close.
Some of those games were, right, like the Knicks Honestly, the Knicks made me feel better because they blew a larger lead in the last minute than the Calves did and it wasn't too bs lane violations that the NBA had to issue an apology the next day. Over that was a healthy team blowing a larger lead without two blown calls that if either of those calls went the other way, it would have been a Calves went So that that to me made me feel just a little bit better.
Yeah.
So, I mean, here's you know, so they did win most of those physical markers that you know, we count towards physicality. I do think, in the ent of being a fair and honest evaluator that there there is physicality that doesn't show up in the stats. That it was on the perimeter that still does a good job of making the Cavaliers play another style of basketball. And I just think under that duress, uh, the the Calves, especially their perimeter players, lose he you know, this is where
the mental toughness comes in. Have just lost faith in what they're What got them there, it was.
It was on the perimeter, right like, and you know, maybe my rant was more almost Jarrett specific and kind of you know, they just get beat up kind of thing. But yeah, it was on the perimeter and no one because I do think we need to get into that and I want to discuss it. But just one thing I wanted to note that's just a little bit frustrating to me. And I don't think that there's any agenda behind this kind of stuff. I just think it's an
inconsistency thing that bothers me. Even if you look at how you know, each of these conference finals has been officiated. Game three, walls were allowed a lot more physicality, they were allowed to play a different way. I would like to see a more consistent standard of what is what because Indie playing New York, they're not able to play Ben Mathrin. Ben Mathrom is a defensive liability, and in Game one, when he tried to even breathe on Jalen Brunson,
it's called immediately. Whereas COV's players are in mid air and he's two hands shoving them and it's not even a foul. Forget a flagrant. Jada McDaniels pushes shay Gilles Alexander from behind while he is drilling a basketball still planted on the ground, and it's a flagrant it's a big deal. It's talked about Obi Top and shoves Donovan Mitchell with two hands in mid air, and it's not a flagrant, Like, you know, he's an All NBA player, you expect him to be protected in the same kind
of way. But it's just frustrating that, you know, what is considered a foul, what is considered appropriate physicality varies from game to game and series to series, and it's just frustrating to see someone like Mathern, who does struggle on defense, be allowed to to gooon out in the answer as well, you guys got to get tougher when you're in mid air, whereas the next series he's not even allowed to breathe on Jalen Brunson.
Yeah, I mean that's all true, but also.
It's a better gripe from a Homer fan. It's what it is, but I need to get it off that.
I just think it kind of tends to be. You know, I think some of it you do buy by being the one who is initiating, you know, and and and by you know again hitting first, Like we weren't sitting here talking about Miami getting away with excess physicality against the Calves because the calves were too busy, either blown by him in the first place, or or you.
Know, anything of them one on the inside.
Yep.
So like you know, some of that stuff is I under stand that impulse, but like I do think we need to challenge it because like it's not gonna go away either, you know, like I was for the most part, it was just yes, yes, there were a couple of players I thought were really dirty, but the macro strategy is not going to stop against this team. Like they've got two small guards who excel when they have freedom of movement. Like, uh, like, that's not gonna that's not
gonna stop there. Teams are gonna grab, they're gonna pull, they're gonna bump, they're gonna they're gonna which is a fair which is all fair play to me, And it's
exactly what teams are going to do. So again, to go back to that mental toughness, that's why you do the oldest crap during the season, to get more diversified, to play different kinds of lineups, you know, to have different attack points that bend the defense in different ways, you know, like that I think I think that's why I remained so so very disappointed in this team's offense coming out of that Pacer series, because it's not like they were the James Harden Rockets, where they ran one
way all season, didn't really practice anything else, didn't try anything else, didn't build their roster in a way that allowed for anything else. So yeah, when that gets messed up, when that system gets skunked up, the offense would crater. That makes sense, but that's not who this Cavs team was trying to be. So the fact that that's who they became. They became a high pick and roll, spam offense with you know, half the personnel to do that.
You know, they didn't they don't have prime James Harden. They had Darius Garland on one leg and Donovan Mitchell on one leg by the end, you know, and and and all the shooting variants going the other way.
And like.
I just I just think they work too hard to become matchup proof, to make themselves uh uh take take out able.
Yeah, And I still fundamentally believe that they, you know, Indy force them into some of these situations, and then their decision making is what made it so problematic. And I think you're correct to make that point of points
well taken. Honestly, I think from a cash standpoint, like that's the number one takeaway from this offseason, right, Like write it down, Write it down on paper, write it down in stone, write it down on an ai transcript provided by zoom Ai Companion, because only you can do your best work harder, because zoom Ai Companion can help you do the rest, like automatically taking notes, answer meeting questions and helping you respond to your coworker. Available no
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I agree, man, it's does it make you feel better at all, Like in a sense of like, uh, you know, not in a like feel good about the loss, but about the team's future That it's not, you know, like because I think both of us, you know, I tend to agree team was good enough, team was healthy enough
to win that series. They didn't because not because of some fatal flaw in their toughness physically or because they couldn't keep Miles Turner off the offensive boards for a free throw attempt, but because they went away from who
they are. Like in some ways, it makes me feel better because like, hey, you can bring this group back and trust them to learn good lessons to watch all this film to you know, learn from a coach that we really respect in Kenney Atkinson in terms of you know, uh, you know, they do have a good autopsy to do, right, Yeah, and we don't need to like we were two years ago, be like, well, I hope they hit on their signings
and free agency, or we're gonna run this back. Like no, I do think they run this back and just better play, smarter, play, more mature basketball. You know, they would go further if we did this again. Like, does that make you feel better or conversely, does it make you feel a little worse about the future of the team, given that that's a couple of years in a row of this.
I feel a little better, but not much, because I do think that the toughest thing to do in the NBA is talent acquisition, and I think they have the talent.
To do it.
What that Indie series showed me if the Cavs were fully healthy, I don't think their bad habits would have come up to an extent where they would have lost the series. I still fundamentally believe that they would have won in five or six games if you disagree with that, I respect your opinion. I'm not getting moved off this stance. I think, especially like those first three games, they could have won all of them in the condition that they were currently in. I think that the Cavs would have
won that series. But what that series showed me is when the talent playing field is leveled, whether that is you know, a healthy Cells making the conference finals, which obviously didn't occur, or the Oklahoma City Thunder getting there, which I think is going to occur, and I think they are going to smoke whoever comes out of East. I think the Caves would have got smoked because the Thunder would be able to do that same thing that Indiana does with a higher level of talent, with a
higher level of ball pressure, with better defensive players. Like one of the things I really admire with Indy and it's something that I want to try to steal from them, is I think what they are able to accomplish defensively with the personnel they have far exceeds the defensive talent that they have on that roster. And I do not feel that's the case for the Cavs. I think we play very good base defense with the defensive personnel that we have. I think that this team can play better
defense than that. So I feel better from that standpoint. But the reason I don't feel a whole lot better is because even though I think maturity is something that you know, anyone can accomplish, I think what they need to do is things we've already seen them demon straight in high leverage games. They did really well in a lot of showcase games, right they show toughness coming back from Boston. They out executed against OKC and won that game at home, like they showed it at times. So
it's not something that we've never seen them display. And I think that that's important. But it's also a very hard thing to do as well, and it's something that you either get or you don't. And I thought one of the more pointing examples that Kobe brought up at the press conference was look at Miles Turner. Miles Turner, you know, think back to twenty eighteen when we beat the Pacers in a series. At that time, it was Miles Turner is in a playoff performer. He's someone that
you know was in trade rumors at that point. This is seven years later. Only last year when they made the conference finals. Did the Miles turners talk like slow down? But there were still some right, Like, there's still questions about him as a playoff performer. If he's a big that you can win with in the playoffs. You look at the conference finals across the board. That same thing has been said about to go Bear. That same thing has been said about Julius Randall, that same thing as
Karl Anthony. That same thing has been said about.
Conference finals for that guy that we all agreed was a big loser, uh three years ago.
I'm gonna throw an asterisk on it. And you know what, here, here's the thing, here's the.
Important thing he got there. I'm not throwing as he got.
As much as I you know, am making the point that anybody can develop from a maturity standpoint and get over that hump. I also understand the flip side of that, because I'm not going to believe in Karl Anthony towns. I am set in, I am locked in my ways Like that's it's just fundamentally how I have you basketball. So if people feel the same way about the Calves,
I understand where you are coming from. But I do think you know that maturity element that figuring out how to make things, uh, you know, more consistent from the regular season to the playoffs is something that requires soul searching, and I think it requires collaboration because I think Kenny needs to talk to everybody on the roster and say,
we got away from ourselves. Is there something about how we were executing from a schematic standpoint that didn't get that same level of buy in when the pressure was the highest. Is there something that you would like to see change?
Is there something you know from your end, from my end? I think you know.
That was one of the things that Kenny talked about all season long, is how about how he collaborates with the players. He wants to figure out what does and doesn't work, and they're going to find that healthy middle ground. I think that that is really important, and that's the first thing that they need to do, is you know, figure out how can I make changes?
How can I.
Help support what changes you want to make in yourself so that we can get to a point where we are a little more playoff group, where we are able to execute even if we're a little banged up, because you know, the level of banged up Donnie was like that sucks. But that's that's you know, that's playoff wear and tear. Evan Mobley in a walking boot, DeAndre Hunter with a dislocated thumb, and Darius with a splint to put his toe in place. That's that's a little bit different.
But there are going to be a.
Real quick there though, because Evan, yes he was hurt, he he was as effective as Donnie was, you know, like in terms of I thought his movement was looked, especially by the time he came. Obviously, missing a game is crazy, and you know it does it not matter that he missed a game, but.
I think the game one like he was not able to keep up with Sakham with with you know, an injury that required a walking boot for a little bit of time, right, And I can I just.
Say what I'm saying is I think he moved, he played well. You know, I would almost put him in the Donnie category and put you know, Hunter in Garland in their own box because Garland could not move and Hunter couldn't hold the ball.
Actually, you know, that's a great example because that might be the type of situation.
That we're in.
Like Mobile has to miss a game, he come back, He's working. He's playing through it, like last year he played through a high ankle spring. This guy's Wolverine, Like, it's really impressive what he's able to do. Can I just say I appreciate just from an irony standpoint, Pacers fans being like, well, yeah, we blew the loss. But Nie Smith left the game and then he came back
and he wasn't looking one hundred percent. Oh yeah, yeah, that does actually have an impact on a game, I understand, but you know, I do think that kind of logic and m Hard passed up like four open threes in that game. Game three broke my spirit at Justin and honestly, that's a lesson. Role players sometimes are going to have bad games, They're going to have bad series. That's why I'm not ready to write off Ty Jerome. You look at Dante di Vincenzo. That guy has had playoff series
where he has been lights out. He has been a nightmare at various stages of the playoffs, and he has others where he is two of twenty five, like it's going to happen. And that's why you always want, as you call the Pumpkin insurance, right, like you want to have those options you can go to in the rotation. I don't think it necessarily says something about how someone is as a playoff performer. I do say that the indications of that where you start to have questions is
when guys look like they're not playing their game. If you are playing your game and you are just shooting poorly, I can live with that. If you are passing up shots. If you are, you know, the record scratches when it gets to you. That's when I start to have concerns. Man Dante's splitz. By the way, you brought up Dante Divangenzo.
Last year in New York he shot forty two percent from the field, forty three percent from three on eight threes a game. Is it twenty eight percent this year? Just like crazy?
And I don't think it means he's not a playoff performer. He did it last year. But like this kind of variance happens. That's why you need your stars to be your stars, and that's why you need to have the depth to make up for it. Okay, see was able to bench lou Doorda times, who despite how great he is, you know, defensively, he's had some nightmare offensive series where you know, even okay, see beat guys are like, hey, I don't know if we can survive the lou Dort minutes,
Like there's going to be serious. I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of their most impactful players in the finals when they get there, because I still think that.
They're going to get there.
But you know, like that kind of variance happens with role guys. I don't think it necessarily needs to be an indictment of them. I don't think it's a reflection of whether or not they're playoff guys. But you need your stars to be your stars, and in the cave standpoint, finding out how to maximize those guys is one of the.
Most important guys figuring out how to maximize themselves.
Yeah, and honestly one of the kind of moments of reflection that I've had in this time off. And I want to get your thoughts on this. Do you think we glossed over the calves going away from Mobili a bit too much in the season because it was working like they were such a good clutch team, But there were times where in the clutch Mobley's not getting the shots. Mobley would have a twenty point quarter and we go
away from him in the second half. The outcomes were so good that I think from a process standpoint, we should have been pointing out, you know, Mobley isn't always getting the consistent touches that we expect if he's going to be that guy we rely on in the playoffs.
To me, I feel like there are just too many opportunities where, you know, when we have a rolling we win in the clutch most clutch Wednesday in the NBA this season, Donovan and Darius are so good that we're just happy about the outcome and we weren't being buzzkills about the process because I feel like too many times Mobley kind of got cut out of that equation, and I think that that was something that we saw in the regular season that translated to the playoffs.
Do you agree, I might agree. I just checked the average five point eight field goals per game in the first half, of field goal attempts per game in the first half five point one in the second half. Oh, that's the playoffs. Sorry, hold on, hold on, it's annoying.
Filter. It's happened to me a few too many.
Yeah, they're killing me, man, Yeah, but either way, so you know, putting that wrong stat aside apologies five point eight the second half and seven point one in the first half, so there you go. In the regular season, so it was even more right.
And also in twenty three clutch games this season, Mobile averaged zero point six field goal attempts in the clutch.
So all that to say, I think that stat might matter more to me than the stat about, you know, their the clutch, because the clutch is its own messy thing. It's hard to get bigs touches in clutch situations. I remember, I mean even when I was like ten years old, I remember being like, likers never find shack in the clutch. It's like, well, yeah, because it's really hard to get an entry pass when guys are getting grabbed, pulled, et cetera. And I'm fine with Darius and Donovan doing the doing
the high pick and roll initiation. What I'm most of them average fewer than two shots as well, which I think is important context to zero points. But I'm fine with them being the lead initiators in the clutch because it just makes more sense that you're gonna be able to do that more consistently, like more often than not sure thet the pendulum can swing. I'm fine with that,
but like it's only going to swing so far. I think what's more disappointing is that first half second half attempt split where it's just like kind of no matter what, no matter how close or far the game is, they just kind of stop looking to Evan once they stop having you know, once they leave having like been primed to do so in the first half. And I think maybe that is the bigger problem. Uh, And like, yeah, I just so like I don't think it's a clutch problem.
It's a it's a it's just a it's a focus problem. I don't know.
I think it's almost, Hey, we understand that Evan Mobley is going to need to take the leap for us to be to win a championship.
He needs to be that guy.
And I don't think that means they know that, like why that's that's my point is I think they all know that, but it's ingraining. Hey, we need to do, like we have to dedicate the season to helping him get there. And I think you know, what we saw from Mobley was the result of the work that he.
Put in the offseason.
The handle was tighter, the shot was better. He was more assertive with the opportunities that he got, But it wasn't the focal point of Hey, we got to keep attacking with Mobley. Like honestly, I thought the Miami series, like he the touches that Mobley got versus Miami were fewer than indeed, Like, he wasn't like, oh, we were using mobile and then when the pressure of Indie hit, you know, we went away from it. It was, hey,
you know, things are flowing. We're not even going to really use this as an opportunity for Mobili to you know, keep attacking. It's just, hey, everything's working right, Like Darius is averaging twenty four game ties, shooting the lights out that the bench took off in the games in Miami. Like I feel like, use, one of the things they're going to need to do next season is, hey, we're going to have to figure out if we can sink or swim with Evan Mobley.
And he might not get.
There next year, but we're going to do absolutely everything that we can to try to get him there and to always make sure that he is involved offensively. Like I think, from a touches standpoint, he's the leader of the team. If you look at the regular season stats in terms of front court touches, he led the team with twenty eight per game, followed by Darius and then Jarrett was actually third in front court touches.
And can you define front court touches for the listeners and me who always forgets exactly what it means.
It means when the first time you receive the ball, when you make the catch, it is initiated in the front court. So you know, if someone brings up the ball from the back court or you know the overall touches they're bringing the ball up, that's not going to count as a possession that was initiated in the front court. So that's receiving the ball in the half court. I
think it's valuable there. And it also goes to show you how they tried to move use Donovan off ball last year, right because he was the leading scorer, but he's behind Darius and Allen when it comes to those front court touches. When it goes to the playoffs, it was a twenty five percent decrease in Mobley's front court touches. It was down to twenty one. That just can't happen, man like he was behind. Mitchell was the leader, Max Struce was a second on the team. Then it was Jared,
then it was Garland. Oh no, sorry, it was Mitchell and Strews ahead. Then it was Alan and Garland after that. So Darius fell all the way down to fifth kind of makes sense, particularly with.
Those indie games.
They were moving him off ball us than this man like Obi top and yeah, like it's I think to me, the most important thing isn't going to be the number of field goal attempts for Evan Mobiley. It's how involved he is offensively. I don't care like obviously, I want to see him aggressive. I want to see him as sert of offensively and attacking guys and not passing up opportunities. But I want him to be that focal point man like I want. I think Darius, you know, leading the
team from an ission and an offense standpoint. That makes sense, Donovan. It's a few years in a row here, with the exception of the New York years, but even going back to Utah, there's always some nagging lower body thing come playoffs, and I don't think I think some of that is bad luck, Like it's landing and rolling your ankle. Stuff like that just kind of sucks. Sometimes it's been hamstrings
and things like that. But from you know, a managing the load standpoint, getting Donovan Mitchell to the playoffs healthy and keeping him healthy for a playoff run is one of the most important things to me because I think that he is that special score that we need at those.
Moments in the postseason.
I think he absolutely brings that to the table. So from my standpoint, the solution to managing Donovan's load in the regular season, where he already was coming off you know, a career low in minutes and usage is We're still
going to use you as our primary play finisher. We're still going to get you these off ball opportunities, but we are giving more touches where we are giving more creation burden to Heaven Mobley because we think that that is going to be how we can beat these playoff defenses. This is how we can make our offenses more playoff proof, and this is how we can beat some of that pressure that teams are going to throw at a smaller backcourt.
Yeah, what I would say is I actually am not that interested in Donovan's load management. In the regular season. I don't think it could be. It's not going to be much less than it was no this year.
What I would.
Propose, though, is that you just continue to manage his load stylistically into the playoffs, you know, by continuing to
play the way you played all regular season. You know, like, like it's I want Donovan to be able to go ballistic for six minutes at a time like he did in Game two against Miami, you know, but you play Cavs basketball until you got to break that class like they've you know, in the last two postseasons, whether it be due to injury or you know, that lack of consistency, it's been Donovan's gonna do this, try to try to do a forty forty minute night where he puts up,
you know, forty five shots, and like, I just can't. That can't be the plan to start the game. And by the way, you mentioned the mobile thing that it's not about shot attempts, it's about touches.
You're right.
But what I will argue is that if he's getting the touches that he's supposed if he's not getting the touches that we want him to get, it is impossible for him to get up to twenty field goal attempts.
Yeah, you don't.
Rudy Gobert doesn't have a lot of twenty field goal attempt games, you know, just being a role man and a dunker spot lurker. Like, let's be honest, if the touches increase, the field goal attempts are going to increase, That's.
What I'm saying.
And how the touches, you know, are, you know, present themselves. If he's getting elbow touches, he's gonna get more chances to post up, to score, to drive, did to shoot, to whatever it is. You know, you just only get so much being a pure dive man or a pure dunker spot guy or a pure spacer like you have to actually be involved in the core of the offense. You know, it's really hard for DeAndre Hunter to get up to twenty shot attempts if he's not, you know,
being worked towards. And that's a guy who has no problem shooting. Yeah, I got a question for you.
This was brought up a in our discord, and initially I think I may have brushed it off to some extent, and as I've sat with it more, I think it's a valid question to ask should the Cavs try to be a higher passing team next year because they were a very high assist team last year. They were near the top of the league when it came to you know, assisted field goals and things like that. But from a pass his main standpoint, they were twenty eighth with two
sixty seven per game. The Indiana Pacers were second in the NBA with three hundred and thirty. So we're talking about about a seventy pass difference. If do you think that there's some value in Hey, we're going to reduce how much Darius and Donovan are asked to create on ball and to try to beat the kind of pressure that these longer teams are going to throw at you.
By the pass, we are going to find Evan Mobley earlier on whether that is you know, if teams are throwing full court pressure, we're going to use Evan Mobley to help break that press. We are going to find him earlier, going to get the ball moving and then they were going to attack a destabilized defense after the fact.
Do you think that.
There's some value you know, I don't think they need to be you know, that high up. I think the passing efficiency that they had was phenomenal, and when you are a lower passing team, it's going to make you one of the better turnover teams in the NBA, which the Cavs were. So there is, you know, pros and cons when it comes to both of this. But I do think, you know, I think back to high school, where you know, our coach had the quickest dribbler on the team, try to go full court. It was like,
all right, let's time that. See how fast that was. And then the second time he had him do the drill, he threw a pass the length of the court to someone that was running without the ball, and he's like, see how much faster that is. I feel like one of the ways you can beat pressure is by getting the ball out of your hands as you see the pressure coming, and using guys like Evan Mobley and other front court players to help break that pressure that we see teams use.
I maybe it's an interesting thought, discord passing isn't necessarily indicative of success. It's important to say there. Golden State and Andy lead the league in passing. The next four teams, the Chicago Bulls, the Phoenix Suns, the Brooklyn Nets and the Toronto Raptors, then the Washington Wizards as the as the lucky number five. So I don't think they're there with us. They're like they're twenty sixth. They have two
more passes per game yep. And you know, so like there's and then you look at the bottom of the league. Houston a very good team, Dallas, you know, at their best, a pretty good team, the Clippers, the Pistons, the thunder the Celtics, the Grizzlies, the Bucks. Like, you know, the pedigree on one side of that spectrum seems a lot
better than the other. And I do think one of the things that I liked about the Cavs because they were I want to say fourth or fifth last year, and passes per game checking right now they were fifth. I you know, I do feel like some of those passes were the the old habit that I hated, which was,
you know, letting perfect be the enemy of good. M Like the Calves this year put so much pressure on teams by having so many guys feeling empowered to catch attack, you know, And I don't really want that to go away just because they stop playing that way in the regular in the postseason because they stopped playing a diverse attack that empowered a bunch of dudes to play that way.
And like, that's where I always go back to the you know what lessons you choose to learn from, And I'm not sure that's where my attention is focused right now, I guess is what I'm what I'm saying, I just want I want them to attack in the ways that I saw them do it all regular season, Like I want them to be.
Better than that. I want.
Like from an Evan mobile involvement standpoint, I think that it needs to be better than it was through the regular seas, and I think it needs to be a more consistent feature. And I just I just found that topic interesting because I do think it ties into mobile because he is such an intelligent passer. Both of our bigs really do kind of excel in that category. Max excels it as a front court option there. I just think using them to break the press is very important.
I just I guess it's almost a little reductive, but I think we need to, you know, in circling back to talking about the Core four and how you know mobile, Garland Mitchell, They're just from a level of importance standpoint. I think they're just ahead of Jared with all due respect to honestly deserved ALSAR consideration last year, but you know, it was on the outside looking and I do think you almost have to take a Big three approach to some extent, and they do that to some extent where
Jared is, you know, feeding off of them. It's not someone that you're designing a lot of touches for. But I think I really want to see the importance of Edvan Mobley and the consistency of Evan Mobley being used in the offense to increase whether that is as a playmaker, whether that's as a score just making sure that that is a continued point of emphasis, because I don't think we're getting to the mountain top unless Evan Mobley is
ready to get there. And I don't think you. I don't think that those habits are going to be in the right place in the playoffs if you are not dedicating to yourself to that all regular season. And I think that was one of the things we saw in the regular season that translated to the playoffs. It just resulted in losses in the playoffs, whereas in the regular season we glossed over it because we got wins. You got to stop treating Evan Mobley like he's Kevin Love.
We're giving him, you know, his first quarter touches to get the stats, and then we go away from him the rest of the game. He needs to be part of the Cavs ecosystem offensively consistently when he's on the court.
That I will not argue with. Brother.
It does feel like that's going to be my big story of the year is just like anything that doesn't serve that because like, I just feel like I've seen the I've seen too many times the limitations of the guard focused attack.
Like and it only works. The only examples in NBA history where these shorter back courts end up winning is when they have the front court initiation. We've been saying it for years. Draymond was that guy for Stephan Jordan Poole, I know, you know, Jordan Poole's an inch taller than Donovan Mitchell. He's a much worse defender than Donovan Mitchell. He doesn't have the wingspan of Donovan Mitchell. Darius is an inch shorter than Steph Curry. I understand that, but
he has a taller standing reach than Steph. He has a longer wingspan than Steph. Like, I think that that is you know, if height is the only thing you're talking about, I think that that is a valid example. If your counter to that is, well, yeah, Steph's great, I would say, oh, so you know, talent is part
of the equation and it's not just about height. So you know, maybe these comparisons about other short back courts aren't one to one, but I think that's As an example Toronto, when Fred Van Vliet and Kyle Lowry were playing fifteen to twenty minutes per game together at five to eleven, they won because they had Marcusol and Kawhi Leonard that could help break the pressure in the front court. All the examples you see had that front court playmaking
heaven Mobiley needs to be that guy. It's the point we've hammered home and I think when we look at the off season, that is the number one thing that I think we need to talk about. And you know, it has to be part of you know, on the Cavs radar to change.
Yes, it does.
Brother, It's gonna be a long off season because you know, so much of that isn't you know, isn't something that you can transaction your way to. They just have to you know, they have to realize it. They have to believe in it and internalize it in a way that that is really meaningful. And I do think like as we get through the off season, as we kind of hit the end of this pod, we are going to you know, uh, I think we've spent a lot of
time talking about the things we wouldn't do. I do think we have things we believe in changes that we would make too, you know, a little further down the line in terms of what styles of players were interested in filling out the roster and what styles of players
we want to see in the rotation moving forward. So I do want to, like in the pod with with something you know, maybe a bit of a teaser looking forward of like you know, we are we don't want pure status quo and just give the ball to Evan Moore. You know, we do want to see some changes. It's just, uh, you know, I do think this was an important maybe
a level to set for this podcast particular discourse. Yeah, And I honestly I messaged you two days ago where I'm like, I feel like this podcast might go on for two hours because I was planning on talking about, you know, let's look at the rotation. Let's look at you know, those guys seven through ten, how they're being used, how they were used in the regular season, how they were using the playoffs, what changes we'd like to see there. That was part of my rundown for this yere podcast.
But we got a lot of weeks of off season basketball to talk about. It's done in two hours in late May. Let me tell you, brother, now we.
Need to spend you know, space these out. We're already at an hour here. We can touch on those changes to the rotation that we need to see. But I think, you know, the important takeaway is one this Cavs corps has the talent to do what they need to do. It's about finding that maturity and finding the ways that empower them to be more than the some of their parts, which I still do not think that they have managed to be that yet. I think they have played up to that.
Level of town.
I think they were a fantastic regular season team, but they still need to find those ways to be more than the some of the parts. So we will continue to dive into what's going to help make that a healthier ecosystem for the calves, how they can take that next step and you know, contend for a championship next season. Unfortunate that this was the you know, the first season where they didn't meet those expectations that we had going into the season. But these types of things happen and
we will see how the Cavs respond to it. Big thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Really appreciate you guys. Make sure you'll like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know when we're going live. If you're listening via podcasting, you want to support us, leave us a rating the review, subscribe unsubscribed, resubscribe and help
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