This crowd rises to speaking.
What Carl slammed it out? Carlo left wing reball.
Perfect dar.
Pop, then he left block the shot at the rim pow with the left hand head of fowl. Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV, including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV dot com
Slash Calves. We thought we might have to wait a little bit longer to find out who was going to be the Calves opponent in the next round. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at things. Uh, the Milwaukee Bucks blew quite the lead in the final seconds of the game, and we know that the Caves are going to be playing the Indiana Pacers on Sunday. Joining me today as always is my co host, Carl Rodriguez.
Carter, how you doing, buddy, I'm doing well. Uh, really really excited for this series. I think it's the best basketball series, you know, that they could have had in the second round, you know, of anyone in the three to you know, the three to six range. I thought Andy was the toughest test in that group, and they're gonna get to go prove themselves against much stiffer competition than they had in the form of the Miami Heat. Totally agree, Totally agree.
In my eyes, Indiana is the third best team in the Eastern Conference and joining us today to help break it down. Tony East from Locked On Pacers. Tony, how you doing, buddy.
I'm great. I'm really happy to be here, and I'm really looking forward to the series, which is perhaps the least informative regular season matchups ever for a series that I've ever had in my life for a playoffs.
It's not the first time because when we did the next series a couple of years ago, we're like, you know, every single one of these games, the Cats were missing Jared Allen for almost all of them, Darius was missing, like it seemed like there was never a regular matchup. But you're right, I think, you know, you could probably say one in one, but even there, Tyres Haliburn played like a half of you know, the Pacers win in
that game. From a calf standpoint, that those two games happened in January, Max Struz was getting integrated into the lineup.
He was coming off the bench in favor of Dean Waite at the.
Time, and then we saw those two late season games were about as uninformative as possible when it comes to what the playoffs are going to look like.
You aren't expecting the Pacers to illegally play three two way players plus two of their and the bench guys. Yeah, those games are rather uninformative for this. And yeah, Alburn missed half of one game and the entire other one right like that, Even if that alone makes it very challenging and makes this all the more fun because we have no idea what the chess match or battles are really going to look like. From two coaches who have had great seasons being tactical.
Yeah, it's a pretty dope matchup, to be honest, And like I've said a few times that I do think both teams are going to have like, oh wait, we're playing someone pretty competent all of a sudden kind of shelf shock after like Indy just had had their way offensively with Milwaukee pretty much the entire series. Through four games, I think they'd assisted on seventy six percent of their field goals, which is like a banana's number. I mean, they're a high assist team, but not normally like twelve
fourteen percent higher than second best Tony. What did you see from them in that Bucks series? Did anything surprise you? Or was it a spot where it's a little hard to evaluate because that Bucks team was not in their best shape.
Yeah, it was really interesting because, like I picked the Pacers to win in seven games, I thought they'd be better, but they were even better than I thought they would be. And my big takeaway for why I was a little wrong about that is and something that I think they'll be hopeful to do again for every series they played for the rest of their lives. They generated a good shot, like whenever they wanted right, they'd come down the floor. Outside of the second half of Game three, which was
the Bucks only win, they'd get across the timeline. They would get into their what they call random offense. One
action here, one action there. The Bucks are rotating. All of a sudden, someone's out of position, or someone's not ready for what's coming next, or it's not a good chance for the Bucks to switch what they did quite a bit, and the Pacers would have a Pascal Siaka being defended by a small guy or Tyre Salburn with somebody he could get into the pain against, whether that was for a passover his own shot or a favorable matchup with some other other players who have improved as
rim attackers, either this season or throughout their careers, and they took advantage of that, like it was extremely easy for them to score. It's funny because every time I go to check, I'm like, Okay, the Pacers surely are leading the playoffs on offensive rating. Oh, they're second behind the Caves by like twenty points. But they still scored
very easily in the first round. And not that the Bucks were like an awesome defense, but they were top twelve, and during the regular season I thought there would be some more resistance. They do have size, they do have gianness, but outside of that second half of Game three and like a little bit of tripping over themselves in Game five a couple of days ago, they could just score whenever they wanted, and that made it easy for them to kind of set the terms of engagement every game.
Yeah, yeah, just I was just going to say, you know, Indiana, the random offense, as he said, what they do with the pick and roll and stuff like that. I just felt like such a bad matchup for the Bucks. I think I picked the Indian in five or six, I can't remember. And obviously, you know, I was assuming Dame was going to remain healthy throughout the series. But you know, even prior to Dame getting hurt, I think it was
clear that it was just such a different matchup. And when you have you know, Brook Lopez playing drop defense, you have Bobby Portis out there like that, They're just not equipped to handle kind of what Indies Bread and Butter is offensively. And to Carter's point, I think this series is going to be a shock to the system for both teams because I was looking at it and Indies and Miami's defenses were identical basically post All Star Break.
You look at some of the regular season numbers, Miami was a bit better shooting from three in comparison to Indiana. But despite those numbers, I don't feel that's true. I understand that over an eighty two game sample, that's kind of how things shook out or whatnot, But how you
were going to attack Indiana defensively is dramatically different. Miami had two week spots that you could pick at consistently and Tyler Herro and kelll where I you know, Indiana actually has a point guard, and not only a point guard, one of the best playmakers that we've really seen in Tyrese Halburn. Well, Miami didn't have a point guard, and I think that changes how those three pointers get generated
in such a dramatic way. I just think it's going to be so different for both teams from what they were playing in the first round.
Yeah, Tony, what like, oh, go ahead, Carter go I was gonna ask you to the point about Indiana's defense not having a tremendous amount of weak points. How many times do you think that Cleveland Cavaliers scored less than one hundred points this regular season? Well?
I was actually going to bring that up earlier, but wasn't sure if it made sense. We were talking about if the regular season mattered at all, Like, wasn't that their worst game by far offensive? Was that that.
First had one game under one hundred points and it was against your Indiana facers, And I'm not.
Like I remember the Pacers defending pretty well in that game, but not so well that it's like, oh, yeah, they should have completely shut down one of the best offenses in the had.
A bad shooting game.
Yeah, sure, but it was such a wonky game because you know, the Caves were up at half, Halliburn's out, the Calves go up by sixteen, and I think they just took their foot off the gas, like I think they were riding like a fifteen game winning streak at that point, and you know, they're up sixteen, Haliburn's not playing, and then Indy just goes full court press. The Calves blow not only you know, blow the lead, they end up getting blown out. It was a massive, massive swing
in the last you know, eighteen minutes of that game. Obviously, as I said, Max Struz was working his way back No Ty Jerome in that game, and then they played the following game, no Haliburn for that one. So we really don't have a lot of useful data in this series. Obviously, DeAndre Hunter hasn't played against Indiana at all either, so we're kind of flying blind. But I do find it interesting because I do think that these are teams that do play similar styles at least to some extent.
Yeah, the shock to the system thing is going to be fascinating. Like you if you look at full season stats, you're gonna like miss a little bit of the boat with the Pacers just because they started so bad, like they were nine and fourteen and not like doomsday bad, but they like couldn't score against the nets and they couldn't stop the Hornets and like lost, like all these terrible teams are. It's like, man, these guys are just
gonna be the ten seed the whole season. And they've had like the fourth best record in the NBA since the NBA Cup and a lot of their numbers since then, particularly on defense, are much better. And that's how they got to be an actually above average defense this year is because of the rise they had. Then they had practice time, they got better and jn Nemhard returned that obviously alone would have boosted things. Ben Shepherd returned right after.
So that's a big part of it. But you know, the weak points part, and I think that's become a theme that people have written about for this playoffs is like teams love to attack weak points. That's almost as important as like the star parts of the battle, like Alberton's been getting picked on at times in the postseason, Like he even talked about himself not being the greatest defender after their Game five win, right, Like it is part of what he knows himself to be, which is
part of it. He's a good team defender, Like he's very aware of what's going on. But you know, they they have been very good in spite of that. They have all had a lot of guys get better defensively.
But I think that that will be where the Pacers have to figure out, Like, Okay, if we're not gonna get run off the floor by Calves team that had a one thirty plus offensive rating at the first rowd, we're gonna have to figure out where to put tyres Alburton had to defend on a string for forty eight minutes, because I mean, it's happened to every team, right, I'm not breaking a news by talking about Cavalanche, just but like, you mess up for three minutes of defense, you're down fifteen,
Like you just can't do it.
Is that where if as a as a on the Pacers side of the ledger, is that where you're the most concerned just their ability to hang offensively with the Calves or you know, is it or do you have similar concerns in the defensive end in terms of, you know, the offense being able to get going against obviously this super potent front line in Mobley and Allen.
I think the Caves defense is very good and the size is gonna matter against the Pacers. This is not to discredit the Calves, but if they stop the Pacers for an entire series, they'll be the first team to do it, you know, in the Halberd and Carlisle kind
of era. I am worried about the other end of the four way more than that, Like the Calves had could have had as many as four all stars, Like they had that many guys who were worthy, and like their weakest of those guys just shot what seventy five percent for a whole series and like just dunked all over people.
For more steals than missus. Yeah against the Miami Yeah right.
And you know, for all the things mouse Turner is good at, like if you take one step away from Jared Allen because someone else on your team got beat, okay, the boss is over your head and in the basket, so and the rebounding battle has very much skewed towards the fro in those Texas on Texas battles down low.
So I think if the Pacers can guard a little bit, that will help a lot, because I think they'll be able to score enough, but getting stops will be quite the chore I think for them, and that that's true of everybody against the Cavs. Just ask the he we just saw it. But you know, there's a lot of particulars that make me think the defense will be the story of the series.
Yeah, and both teams are very similar in terms of how they perform offensively in transition. Both teams are in the top five in terms of transition offense. Both are you know, cas are eleventh in transition defense, Indy's fourteenth. Half court offense, both of these teams are great. Indy sixth and half court offense, Caves are number one, and half court offense. Half court defense is where there's a bit of a difference. Caves are fifth, while Indiana is sixteenth.
I want to get your perspective on the you know, defensive strength of Indiana's front court because you know, Miles Turner and Pascal Siakam definitely had reputations of being very strong defenders. It hasn't felt like they've been as good this year, but maybe you know, some of that is
skewed by me watching more early season matchups. How do you feel about them defensively and how they matchup in particular with the Kavs Biggs, because I really do feel that Mobley and Allen versus Siaka and Turner matchup is going to be one of the most important parts of this series.
Yeah, a lot of stuff that Turner got better at is the season on a long defensively because ever like he was top five defensive player of the Year twice, Like he's yeah, at one point was a game wrecker on that end of the floor. I think he's still leading the playoffs and Blacks, which if he does again be the second time of his career. You know, he he's still talented on that end. Like when they were struggling, it wasn't really like he looked worse, but it wasn't
necessarily his fault. That the whole game he's being asked to cover for someone else who got beat on the perimeter. It's like Miles Turner step over and side at the rim. Are they're gonna score and and you know you don't. You don't want to have to use the mouse trap that much. You should just eradicate the mice right, Like
he's very good, but they didn't. But this season he got a lot better like two man game synergy, I would say, especially with the Pacers good defenders, like defending pick and rolls with them, Hard and Nee Smith have looked a lot better. They've been able to mix in coverages a little differently in a way that place the
turner strengths and naturally help their defense. And yeah, Siakam last year and even at times really this year was a little flimsier than his rep on defense, but like there is not a bigger switch in scheme than going from Nick Nurse Toronto Raptors style and he planned for Darko the last year, but still to the Pacers, right, so there's new terminology. You're doing way different things naturally, and he's gotten much better as the season has progressed.
So they they're two most sizeable players they play, are good defenders, they're reserve frontcour guys certainly have some weaknesses in Thomas Bryant, Obi Topping, like they played those guys mostly out of like, hey, we have six fouls for you, honest and necessity in the first round. Top it's been a good playoff performer before Jaris Walker will hit the
floor certainly, and he has a nice defensive reputation. But you know, the Siakam and Turner's growth on that end of the four is actually a big part of the Pacers turnaround, because you are right that they have at times looked like they'd taken a step back on that end, but they needed them to be better to save their season and they have been.
Yeah, something I'm really really interested in is what kind of scheme Carlisle comes out of the gate with in how they guard the pick and roll. Like the Calves were pretty like they kind of deviated from their regular season in the sense that they really did go hunt Tyler Hero. You know, they kind of in my opinion, justin feel free to disagree, they were kind of a team like we're just going to keep running our stuff
until you break. They weren't like mismatch hunters. They're not like the Celtics, but in that heat series, they really did pick at the scab of Tyler Hero before they decided to pick at another scab of kilol Ware in the games in Miami.
There's a lot of slander for an Indiana hoosier.
I'm very upset, I know, I know, but but you know, so they kind of did they kind of did that. I'm going to imagine they're going to do the same thing with Halliburton. And if they're able to get that switch, how do you think that Indy's gonna play that? Because switching feels really dangerous for Halliburton, Like, I don't think you want him trying to like wrestle Jarrett or Evan in the post over and over and over again. You know, at a drop is what I think, you know, I got,
like Turner is most comfortable with. But like good luck Mobley and Darius, I'm sorry, Donovan and Darius are like two of the best drop that can drop defense attackers in the NBA. Like what do you think they will do versus what they should do?
Yeah, it's fascinating, Like the first round gave us no indication because the whole defensive plan is like okay, Yannis, step is step one, two and three and maybe even four and then everybody else figure that out later, right, And last year they had Brunson and the rest of the Knicks who like were you know, this is the most like potent team offense they'll have played in this era of their team that they'll have to kind of sort of stuff out because it's very easy for me to say,
I bet Halburn starts the game on Max Streus, Right, Okay, that's great. Max Struce goes and sets a screen to start a possession, and now, what, like, are you just giving something up? Is Streut's just gonna be wide open
for a three immediately? Gary Trentce just made a trillion three's against the Pacers in the first round, right, Like, it's not that obviously helps like sometimes, but it's not that simple, and he's going to get caught in tradition opportunities because of a strue screen whatever in those matchups. So yeah, I'd imagine they send Turner up higher because of that. Try to get those guards to have to turn the corner or see another body or just give them off time to scram and have the big man
get back. But hey, good luck, Like that's hard. Everybody has tried this, Like if I can think of it obviously and it be a coach can think of it right, so maybe someone's coming from the weak side to tagd Allan come in to the basket. Oh look, Donovan Mitchell has become a better passer this year. Darris Carlan's an
awesome passer. They'll just throw this skit pass over the top, like they're gonna have to be really connected, which is like everybody's favorite buzzword for just not messing up basically when you're rotating, And that's where the Bucks fell apart against the Pacers, right, they would stop the first action and the second one and the third one. They were like, oh crap, we don't know what to do. I'm not
ready for whatever this is. And if the Pacers can't have that, But the Calves force you to mess up because they have a lot of good players. So you know, if you involve Albert in the action, which I imagine they'll try, or if you just keep running whatever the Calves want to run with their two all star level ball handlers, Yeah, they're going to generate good shots like a lot, and so the Pacers can't have these breakdowns, so they're just gonna get run out of the gym.
Sometimes it does feel sorry justin I'll toss to you in just one second. It does feel like they you know, there are when you're coaching up a playoff defense, like you kind of are on one end. There are two ends of the spectrum. One end is simplify, so no one messes up, but like you know, talent will kill you or go way complicated, really rely on a lot of crazy rotation, high effort, high focus things, and like your ceiling might go up, but your floor goes way down.
It does feel like Andy has to lean towards the ladder end of the spectrum and just depend on their guys to not screw up.
And also like they just played honest like more complex mess if you if you mess up something complex, it's like it looks so bad, like there's like a wide open path to the basket. And I think they did a really good job with their on a scheme, but there were just some moments where like, oh, so obviously somebody just messed up like that that's the best player
in the series walking into the rim. So that's where the complicated parts come in, is like one guy messing up causes that basically everybody too.
Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see kind of how both teams attack one another to start off the series. Carter mentioned that the Cavs did, you know, go hunting a little bit more than we saw in the regular season. And the interesting thing about that is they don't go to,
you know, hunt out a weak defender in isolation. It's hey, we're gonna run you know, a double drag here with you know, Max Strus, which I assume Haliburn's going to start on him one of the bigs, and we're going to count on this flowing into a pick and roll. We're going to be able to generate good looks here. It's not just about attacking you individually as a defender.
It's about causing the defense to break down. And one of the things I'm curious about is how you anticipate Indiana attacking the Cavs defense to start because obviously, you know, the pick and roll, pick and pop game has been a big part of the Pacers offense. Where do you see them targeting the Cavs on the offensive end.
Yeah, it's funny you talk about the Calves going kind of against their style by mismatch hunting, because the Pacers never do it either, right, Like that was what struck struck me at the end of game five of the game they just played against the Bucks a couple days ago. Like late in the game, they very often were just oh, Siakam has a small on them, and they would dump
it into him like they never play like that. And I kept thinking, Man, if they lose, it's gonna be to me because they were so focused on like mismatch hunting. Guess what it works, SACOM's really good. They won the game, but you know, it doesn't feel like that's how they're at their best. And they're just hard to prep for, right because they what they say it's random, Like it's easy to call it random, it's not to them, right. They know what to do, They know how to flow
from action to action. The ball never sticks side to side, big Man's the full crumb. It's flipping around. Sometimes that's picking roll. Sometimes that's dribble, handoff. Sometimes that's just there's not a lot off ball screening, whatever you want to call it. It's like it's random to us, it's not
random to them. The only reason I say that is because there's not like a bread and butter like one action outside of crunch time when it's like, yes, Yahkam's sending a flatball screen for Tyres Alburn that they're gonna do. That's gonna crush a team over and over and over again. It's just because it's so hard to scout or like
know what's coming. That's what their secret sauce is. Like Joe Miszula said last year the Pacers got swept by the Celtics, right handled handled in a four l series, and Joe Mozula said, that was our hardest series, Like that was the hardest series we played to prep for and be ready for because they just stress you out in so many ways that you have to be locked in for forty eight minutes defensive here they're gonna score a lot. And the PACER's issuing in that series wasn't
that they didn't score. They scored a lot. They just couldn't stop the Boston Celtics wit, the best offensive all time.
So I don't know, necessarily there's a oh, they're gonna pull Darius Garland into every action and try to, you know, make him defend a screener or make him defend a ball handler like the Pacers ball handlers, the Smith, them Hart, everybody has gotten so much better at attacking when they get by man or you know, taking space in front of them to make a defense rotate and they can all make enough shots. Now that the Pacers will just
trust anybody to do anything. They didn't have a single thirty point score in a single game in the first round, right, They just go from thing to thing and whoever it is can score. All those guys have grown in ways to make the system work. So it's not they have not been as much of a pick on the weak point thing. It's not that they're not doing that, but they just trust everybody to score and they have the
depth to do it. So that that was a very long winded, non specific answer to say they're not gonna attack anything specific. They're not just gonna have this like, oh my gosh, the Calves can't stop this one thing. They're just the way they play, that's it. That is their stress around defenses.
And that's one of the benefits of having so many high IQ players out there, right, Like they were able to read and react and see, you know, what's available to them where they are able to put in their best work, just like zoom Ai Companion helps us out, Carter, don't you dare shake your head.
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Were cappy. With Zuomei Companion, you can go as one of your better disguise. And that's why I was tickled by it because I saw it, but I was like, but I don't know if anyone else is going to see it coming. So very well done, Sarah Tony. I actually do have, you know, one very specific thing I'm actually really curious about in this series, and it is having to do with Pascal Siakam. He is one of the very few players that I saw this season that the Cavs had a really hard time figuring out how
to stop. Uh. He is a special blend of chaotic that allows him to to to score on our bigs in post situations. I wouldn't say that's what you want to build the whole plane out of, but like it's not. You know, there are a lot of guys who if they try to post up Evan or Jarrett, they're just dead on arrival, especially if the post starts like twelve
feet out. Siakam is an exception to that. And also I think Siakam is one of the best positioned players to punish the Cavaliers switching scheme that they leaned on for much of the regular season because of his post acumen, because of his handle where you have to put you on the ball, and his movements are chaotic enough that I think it's hard to double in a way that doesn't leave you really exposed. Like timing the double is
really hard with that kind of chaotic stop start. He's like the way Darius Garland is a stop start player when he attacks the rim. That's Pascal Siakam post ups. I never exactly know when it's going to start, when he's going to actually make his move to the rim.
He's really physical, you know, it's hard for you know, guys like you know, Sam Merril Max Strus who can hold their own in others switch situations, like if they're running pick and pop. I'm totally cool with Max Struce taking seven seconds on Miles Turner, you know, like that's fine, That's a perfectly acceptable outcome to me. Less so with Siakam so I'm interested in two things. One or the Cabs going to switch those actions and let Siakam get
favorable post mismatches. And then the second thing I'm curious about in that Calves win early in the season, the one without Haliburton, Siakam was murdering them in the first half and they went to a two three zone in the second half, and I think Siakam got like three shot attempts the rest of the game. Do you think that that zone is something that the Cavs can maybe lean on in this series, knowing how dangerous Indy can be shooting the basketball.
Ah, the zone comvote. Yeah. So first, for just Siakam, he's just he's got a good enough three ball this year that's actually like a oh crap, we gotta think about that kind of shot as a defense. And he's always been money from elbows and in right, like effective enough that you're on him there. And so because of those two things, you're always sticking to him. And he's got a lot of craft right, he can go, he's
gotten up and under. He hit one on the honest in the first round and I was like, how did you even get that over the rim? He can fade. He's got the post fade that everybody knows, and he's like quick when he spins. You can't lean on his shoulder. He'll just feel it and get around you. And you can't sag off because he'll turn around and shoot over you.
And it's like, you know, it's a two point ten foot or most defenses are like, oh hey, whatever, but he makes enough of him that you have to panic about it, and so even really good defenders have to battle with technique. There's a lot of young biggs in the NBA that you know, this is just a dear I've had for a while that like they don't guard post ups that much coming up anymore, with just the
way basketball is like changed. I don't think Jared Allen and Evan Mobley apply to this, but like, that's a lot of the games where I think Pascal Siakam's at his best, where it's just some like young forward who's like, I don't know, I don't even know how to do this. I've never had to do this before. Why do I
how are you supposed to stop this mobile? Obviously, Defensive Player of the Year knows the tricks of the trade, and Jared Allen's amazing, so he can cut up any kind of defender because he has so much technique and ability. But zones have been a thing I mean so no, Haliburn was a big part of it working in that
game specifically. I wrote a story about this during the season, like so much of the zones against the Pacers where when bench groups are on the floor, right TJ McConnell obviously not thought of as.
A as a zone.
Yeah, well he was in the first round. He would just like wheel to the elbow and fling it over the Bucks, like over and over again. I thought, what is happening? How is this working? But it was but like top and really struggled to start the season for Deep and Ben Madther and it isn't decisive enough with his catch and shooting at times, Like team's been really willing to go there, and.
One guy the ball sticks with yes.
Yes, teams have been willing to go zone against the Pacers bench because of who the units are. But in the playoffs one they mix and match more. In two, the Calves, the Bucks and the Thunder were three of the only teams that were like, yeah, we'll go zone against the starters who Cares and it helped that Halburton was out, that they lost a very key shooter and set up man. But the Pacers, for some reason, every so often they see his zone, they're like, wait, what
what is this sport? What do we do? How does you know? And they in the first round they never had that problem. They to zone, the'd immediately recognize it, they get into their thing, and they'd score against the Bucks. So I wonder if they'll be ready for the Calves defense because zone defense because of that game that you referenced, but it has been a thorn in their side very often throughout this season, and the Calves one is just different because of their front court size and like even
does Dean Wade ever mess up ever on defense? Like that dude's always in the right spot. His angles are amazing, So it's all they're big guys are awesome. So that that zone will be better than the Buck zone, right, So if it bogs the Pacers down at all, that will be a problem. I find the Pacers I have confidence because of the way they handle zone in the first round, but the regular season record against zone was like, Okay,
we probably need to be better against this. So that is certainly something, especially when it comes to Siakam because there's five people standing right around you in your favorite spots in his zone. To think about.
Yeah, I'm going to be fascinated to see kind of what defensive strategy the Calves use, because only Miami uses more zone than the Calves. The Calves used a ton of it in the regular season. They also were incredibly switch heavy, and I just don't know if you can be as switch heavy when you're talking about a Halliburn Sakham pick and roll, like, I think you want to fight through that.
As much as possible.
Caves for the most part, they trust their guys defensively, Like they don't try to hide Darius or Donovan. They trust them to stay in front. Sometimes they you know, on the switches, they get mismatches, right, Like I've brought this up before, but nobody has defended more Jason Tatum shots this season than Darius Garland. And that's because Boston's going to hunt those situations and Darius, like you know, he's giving up a lot of size, but he is
a very good screen navigator. He does a terrific job of that. Donovan's a if you look at the numbers is a little less strong when it comes to screen navigation. But both of those guys are going to stay in front of their guys. I just don't know if you want to be in a situation where you're allowing Siakam to get onto Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell in those spots. I think you're going to try to get guys to fight through in those situations. They'll be interested to see
if they go zone. Also be interested to see the difference in how they defend the pick and roll with Passal Siakam versus the pick and pop with Miles Turner, because I expect that to be two completely different strategies.
But I think they got to switch that, dude, I really do. I agree with that. I agree with the Turner one because at the end of the day, you look at that heat series, and the story of it for Miami offensively other than ah was was that they could not crack the Calves shell. You know, they like they would switch, or they'd fight over the screen and stay connected in front. They just didn't have to go
to on the ball against anyone on Miami at any point. Really, And I think the cave I've said this all year. The Calves have not been the best defense in the NBA this season, I still believe in their shell defense more than any other team, you know, because when because that means everything's functioning. And when everything's functioning, you've got a mobile or an Allen who is able to switch on the perimeter and another rim protector that never had
to leave the back line in the first place. And I think the more you can do that, like, you have a talent advantage against this indie team. Sorry, Tony, you know, I think this Calves team, you know, has more top end scoring talent. So like, as long as you don't let that indie machine get worrying, like, you've
got a much better chance. So like, and I think, I mean, I cannot think of a more different outcome than like an aj Green Brook Lopez pick and pop defended pick and pop. Then you know Max Struz or DeAndre Hunter and h and Jared or Evan you know,
guarding that action. I do think to that end, this should be a big Dean Wade series because it should be a big DeAndre Hunter at the three series because if you're able to put DeAndre on Tyresee and again, I don't think DeAndre is like an elite perimeter stopper, but that action is so switchable. And if I'm gonna die to Miles Turner post ups on DeAndre Hunter, I guess I'm just gonna die.
I just feel like, hey, ask the Bucks about that. In Game four they died well, you.
Know, and sometimes like and that is the thing about series is both these offenses are so good. Yeah, sometimes they're like they're just gonna win, you know, and like, I think you're gonna have I think both teams there's gonna be a real test of like, you know, of confidence and will agreed to win because I think there are going to be stretches in this series where either team scores five six possessions in a row and it's not because they made because the other team made some huge mistake.
There's been some shocking moments in this NBA Playoffs, some crazy game winners. One of my most like, wait, what moments? Was you talk about the Cavs shell defense. I look at the box score halftime, it's heat calves. Game three. The Heat are nine for twenty from deep and they're down by over twenty points. I'm like, what happened?
In the game.
What what are how could they? How are they? How can they not keep going on fire?
That was the whole series pretty much, with the exception of Game four because they just totally quit. But like we were sitting there at Carter and I were at games one and two, and at halftime of each game were like Miami shooting like fifty from three in their down ten and you looked at it and it basically was they were shooting lights out on contested twos and we were sitting there being like, this is going to fall apart. You are not going to be able to
sustain this. You are not getting the shot quality that is going to allow you to keep up with the Cavs.
And I think they just kind of broke after a little while.
They gave it the best shot in games to everyone thinks that, Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think even some of their exit interviews reflected that. One thing I'm curious about, Tony, is there guys that were playing in the first round that you think are going to have a lesser or larger role for Indiana going up against the Cavs.
What do you kind of That's a good question. Co host thank you very much.
I've actually been thinking about that, and I'm not really sure there should be a ton of shift, not because the teams have personnel that's similar, but because they just burned a lot of their front core bodies to like guardian Us with foulsand be fine with that and so yeah, the Calves don't have you, honest, but they have more front court size besides, you know, one player, like they are going to be big for a lot of the games, Like they're not gonna send away Thomas Bryant, Like they'll
need a backup five to play for sure. Obie Toppin's gonna play. Jars Walker maybe would be the guy who would play a little bit less, I suppose, but not. I mean, he's a valuable guy with size that can make shots. Ben Sheppard they dusted off because he's one of their best perimeter defenders at not allowing blowbys. Hey, look, the Calves have too elite ball handling guards. Like they're gonna need him to play. McConnell's gonna play, Mathen's gonna play.
Topin's gonna play. So I don't think so, but I'll be curious how the series kind of shifts that, like if the Calves, how much do the Calves go to whatever their reserve front court ends up being in the series or is it just like forty minutes each for Allan?
It won't be That's yeah, I don't think Kenny. Kenny is just you know, he's been really committed to a deep rotation. With that said, it's been you know, if you look at just the box score and you do a quick glance, you'll see, I mean, until Darius got hurt. You know, Darius got hurt, he went down to nine.
But like when you look at games one and two, you see, all right, he played ten men kind of he played eight, and then like a short shift for Dean in the first half and a short shift for Okoro in the first half, and that was kind of what he you know, so he played ten nominally, but he really played eight. But like, I don't think you're going to see a lot of these forty minute windows because even when he does that, the Cavs binch is so good, so vital that you know, it's just really
hard to get your starters to forty plus minutes. If Ty Jerome is playing twenty six, twenty seven, DeAndre Hunter's playing twenty six twenty seven, like sam Merrill's playing twenty two to twenty three, Like all of a sudden, you're just kind of like running out of minutes to yeah, a portion.
The thing is doesn't feel like it's a bench lineup when you always have one of Darius and Donovan out there, one of Jared and Evan and.
The best player in the league, Ty Jerome.
I was about to say, and to help, you know, bridge those minutes, you have DeAndre Hunter and ty Jerome, who were two of the you know, top three starting quality players right right, and then oh who who were going to throw you know, at small forward. Well, we can still have Max Drews out there, we can have Dean Wade out there. We can go to Isaaca O Corral, we can go sam Merril. I am interested to see who Kenny goes to because as.
I was wondering, that is this the series Kenny act? Because tell me if I'm wrong, it feels like every time he has to make a decision, he's like, I want the shooter. I picked the guy who can shoot better, Like is this the series? He like kind of indexes towards defense a little more with those decisions I'm not sure.
I think if I'm Kenny, because like I think I was really really pleasantly surprised by Sam Merrill in the last series. It's good say I was disappointed by Isaaca Coral, but like it wasn't. It was very clearly not going to be his series very quickly, And I do think that they are going to need to index on positional size a little bit more in this. And he's just so big in that the Pascal post ups loom. You know,
Jarris Walker is just rugged, super physical. Obi Toppin can be a terror in transition, He's not like a post Up threat. But like they just have a lot of big dudes who even Matherins like a very big wing. And I do wonder if this is a Dean series more than a Sam series, so maybe Sam still plays. But like I think positional size for defensive purposes makes a lot of sense, especially if you're getting your playmaking
somewhere else. But like I also just think like you're gonna need to be able to attack them in multiple spots. That's why I kind of like more minutes of DeAndre at the three playing a lot alongside Darius Donovan. Tie two of those guys at all times, just you can constantly be attacking because I have the ball. Pressure from Indy is my That's like my number one like subplot for Indy defensively in the series is how much pressure they put on you on the ball. So, like, I
don't know, it just doesn't. It doesn't feel like a SAM series to me. But I was pleasantly surprised at how much that Miami series was a SAM series. So I don't know.
Yeah, I didn't think the first round to be a JAFF series. He played very well, And I mentioned six bench guys when you asked me about that. They'd never played all six in one game, right, the first two games, no Ben Shepherd, then it was no Jeris Walker, but then Mattheren got hurt, so they got both those guys in, and then in game five Thomas Bryant at the floor for one possession for rebounding purposes. He was the guy effectively out. So they never actually played eleven. It's always
been five specific bench guys. If you made me guess fully healthy, who the Pacers reserve would be that doesn't play, I would guess to start the series, he'd be jarifs Walker but it wouldn't surprise me if after like one or two games, are like, Okay, we can't stop him anyway, let's just go small in the front court and try to score like crazy, and then Walker and Top and the Siaka make up the front court.
So are you suggesting Bryant would take Walker's minutes?
Basically, yeah, they I think you just need a center, right. The Cavs just are gonna have a big five on the floor the whole time. And I called the Goldilocks number.
When you get the right number of minutes, like seven minutes of Thomas Bryant is probably fine, just hustle, get boards, but his defense is not very good, and he you know, either shoots one three er doesn't shoot at all in the playoffs usually, So it would not surprise me if they very quickly like okay, that was a mistake, but I would I would start with the size route and
see how it goes. Walker is obviously big, but you know, and they've survived with Walker, Top and Siakim as the reserve front court a lot, and Siakam plays with the bench groups more than any other pacers starter, So that would not surprise me if they went to that first, but I think it will be between Bryan's and Walker for their last spot and Shepherd, you know, no one really thinks of him, but like that, he's just one of their better defenders and you're going to absolutely need
that all the time in this series.
One thing that I just looked up because I was like, I feel like Bryant played a healthy amount against the Calves this year. Played more minutes against the Calves than any other team this season, played seventy minutes.
That's right, because he they didn't play the Calves till after they traded for him, and then he played a ton in those last two games when it.
Was like the five games, the.
Seating the well, the Pacers seating, the Calves seating was over the seating wars. I don't even know what to call those. For the Calves. It's the seating seeding for the Pacers. There's the seat seating games for the Calves.
Yeah, the Calves, that was basically March for them. Unfortunately, Boston was unable to keep up so that the Calves were a little lackluster for the last month.
I was being a psycho for like weeks, being like, oh, the Calve's going to be trying to get home court advantage in the finals in these games and they're gonna care at all, how's this gonna go. They did not end up caring about that, so it.
Was benefited one of those weird scheduling things where they played seventeen games in a row where they didn't play in the same city twice in a row. This is basically a seventeen game road trip, and I think going back, it was actually like twenty two out of twenty four games basically from like February through March. So it was a tough, tough time with not a lot to play for,
and I think that showed up in the results. I'm fascinated for the Cavs to see basically who this eighth through nineth guy is on the team, and maybe even tenth, you know, as a result of that, because Dean Wade moved ahead of isaacle Core in the rotation mid series, and I really like what that length can do. But if we are still rolling out Sam Merril as that eighth guy, it becomes tougher to play Dean Wade in
those spots. It becomes tougher to play that length because if you're always going to have one of Darius and Donovan out there, and ty Jerome comes in. That means Sam Marril has to play at small Ford, which means you are going to be smaller. Sam has done a terrific job. Those lineups have absolutely crushed it. I think that there's a possibility that they continue to crush it in the series. But you are giving up size in those matchups, so I'm curious to see how Kenny uses
those guys where they slide into the rotation. But I think I agree with you. I think for the most part, I don't see Inde changing up their rotation. I don't see the Cavs changing up their rotation a whole bit. I think it's going to be a pretty typical series of to feel it out games and then we see where the adjustments go from there.
I have a question for you, fellas, Okay, a little segment I'm inventing on the fly, which is who is the player that the opposing fan base is most likely to hate by the end of the series.
You know, it's funny you guys are talking about Sam Merrill. He hit like five threes in a row two feet from me when the Cavs are in any of that third last game of the season. The Pacers fan base is in my mentions like are they ever going to guard Gary Trent? Are they ever gonna guard a j. Green? So the profile of that kind of player suggests that Sam Merril has a good shot of that crown, and also Max Streus is a good shot at that crown
for similar reasons. Max Strews is a forty plus three point shooter who I feel like goes seven for eight or two freight to like him, So there's a very good chance that he has like three seven freight games, like I hate that Struce guy you never misses.
He's also a talker and he's very physical.
That will be good again in a Pacer series. The Pacers are not afraid to respond to talkers, and that I'm.
It's going to make him even more annoying because and that is fine, to.
Be clear, I think that is fun for all everybody talks. Get your yappin on.
I tell you who I'm prepared to hate, and it's Andrew nim Hard. I think he is going to be a thorn in their side, Like I feel like every good minute Indy has in this series, Andrew nim Hard is going to be involved. Yeah, I think his physicality is a serious His ball pressure is really really important.
I think, especially give in that the Cavs are going to start so many possessions with bigger wings on Halliburton means I think they're going to do a lot of stashing of Darius and Donovan on nim Hard, and he's going to have to create shots for them and consistently get buckets just to create, you know, because like you can't just do the Haliburton pick and roll in perpetuity. Like to your point, a big part of this team's DNA is how many places they can kill you from.
I think nim Hard has just the right amount of irritation. He's an irritant on defense and hits really ballsy shots on offense, Like he's a shoots better than his percentages guy in the right series, and like, yeah, that's the guy I'm prepared to like, you know, ball my fist up and shake well. I can never say I could never say, yeah, yeah, I'm not about to go what Matther and I can see myself, I can see myself
not being thrilled with him. I think who I'm prepared to hate by the end of the series is TJ McConnell. I just feel like there's gonna be a stretch where that guy gets five steals in a quarter and I just get annoyed by his face. I think that's the way this goes.
But harder to your point about Nemhard, I think it's important for people to realize. I tweeted this out before the podcast, but Basketball index as Nemhard as one hundred percentile perimeter isolation defender.
He's awesome, dude, He's nailed.
So good.
He is nails. He is so damn good.
He is better than his percentages.
Guy.
Like most of those guys, it's because the shots they make are important, right, so you remember them or they like sit with you. Like he had a huge three and overtime in Game five for the Pacers. No one remembers it because Halbert scored a lot after that, Like it was a massive shot, Like all of his iconic moments are, like he hit a buzzer beater over Lebron from how many feet away? He had a Game three game winner in the playoffs, like this thirty two percent shooter,
Like he just he's lights out when it matters. And his defense is just absurd ever since sprunts and not embarrassed him, but like was the first guy that made them hard look like a not good defense their last year in the playoffs. He's even leveled up since then. And you mentioned like putting a guard on him. A lot of teams will put their horses under on Aaron Nee Smith, and that's become harder to do now too, because he's got a little bit of waggle going towards
their m now. So I wonder if the cat.
Dude share me if you if you ask me Carter, like, what are you really nervous about? It's Nie Smith and nim Hard swinging a game by being chaotic, getting in transition, beating up the Cavaliers. They're so physical at the point of attack, dude, it's nuts bad. I feel like the Calves like got a taste of that with Davion Mitchell in terms of that physicality at the point of attack, but it's like you're going up a notch on the
on the physicality level. Like, I feel like those two are closer to what the Cavs had to deal with in Orlando last year with Suggs and Harris and Franz and all these dudes just beating you up. Like those guys are so tough.
It's gonna be interesting, man. I think this series is going to be awesome. Before we get you out of here, Tony, let's get some serious predictions and well, well you are in hostile territory, you go first.
Yeah. I've been leaning towards the Calves since this was revealed as going to be the series. The length is challenging. I tried to be the guy who's like, I don't pick it in six because of the close out on the road, So Calves six feels right to me. I would be shocked if it was a short series. I also said that in the first round, and then it was a short series. So you never really know in the NBA these days. Maybe I'm underselling the Calves in
They're one hundred and thirty eight offensive rating. Calves five is I assume going to be a popular Calves four.
I think.
I am going to go Calves six or seven. But I picked Nixon seven last year and the Pacers beat them, So that does not mean I am right or good at predictions.
Carter, Uh, I'm going Calves in five here? Oh wow? Okay, I like I but with an important caveat that I think four of those wins could be tough as as hell. I do not think this is a dominant Cavalier series where they're just winning. If they win two games by twenty or two games by twenty is two bigs. If they win two games by fifteen, ten to fifteen, like, I'll feel really really good about this series. I respect
the heck out of this Indy team. You know, they just, to your point earlier in the pod, justin they just don't have a lot of weak links. They play a lot of guys who are pretty darn good. I think they are a little short on guys who are uber elite, which is why I think the Calves should have the advantage in crunch time in some tight games down the stretchers.
Is why I'm picking Calves in five. But like I said this to Jason Tempf on his pod earlier today that if you were to like make me pick like a likelihood, I would chunk Calves in five, Calves and six and Calves and seven in a very tight odds window. Like I don't think that.
Me people like that, I'm gonna steal that I'm sorry, I'm stealing that.
Yeah, enjoy. You know, I think you'd have to take, you know, a little tier lower for Pacers in seven, you know, because I do think the Calves should be overwhelmingly likely to win the series based on all the metrics that we have in front of us and all the tape from round one. But I think it's going to be really, really hard work and it's going to be honestly, just way closer to the test we thought Miami might be able to give this Calves team in terms of making them win the series.
Yeah, And I've been going back and forth between five and six. I think there's going to be a game in this series where India is just flat out playing like the better team.
If we sweep them, that would be It's not I don't. I don't think that's going to happen.
I think I think Indy's going to outplay the Caves in one of these games, and whether it's five or six is going to come down to is there a wild shooting variance game in either direction?
Like it's no.
I think back to the first loss that the Caves had against Atlanta, where you got thirty two wide open threes and shot twenty on them. If that happens, or if Indie shoots like, you know, sixty seventy percent on like on their threes, which we've seen them do in versus the Cavs in the past, I can see that extent of the series. I'm there's no way I'm going to let you pick fewer games than me, though, So I'm going to go five.
That's that's where I have to go. You're you're not going to do that to me. Here's the thing about Justin Tony is I pick. I try to pick these series intellectually. He picks them in a way that won't get him yelled at by our listeners because he's a coward. No, I'm a man of instinct. I am a man of guts. I am a man of feeling.
I ignore my brain when I'm making picks.
I go with my heart that much as clear.
And it makes me right more frequently than you didn't you pick Milwaukee.
Let's let's put you. I think you did. I think I said it would be closer than people thought.
And I said it would I said it was five games, and he's going to clean them.
I picked Calves and seven and Stormlando when everyone else was saying it was going to be five or six.
And I picked Calves over the heat in four. I also told you that Detroit was going to win the series. And you know, if if the last two minutes was called correctly, if the if the last few minutes was called correctly, they would have already won the series.
So sorry that you have to hear us take tim Hardleay was not failed anyway. Continue Oh wow, yes, I disagree with everyone, including NBA officials who.
Said, yeah, was a foul our bags and Josh Hart. Yeah, I have literally no ground on the planet to stand on.
Well, I'm sorry you had to witness mom and dad fighting. He's unfortunate, but every now and then we got to do it, Tony. Before we let you out of here, let the people know where they can find you.
Yeah, yep. If you're watching at Tony, ours is on the screen. But that is my Twitter handle. I finally have like a professional, boring one with just my middle initial in there, so that's where you can find me.
Mine is still nonsense. It is slapping the caves in Canada, and that's what it is. Thank you so much for having us, or for coming on. Make sure you guys are checking out Lockdown Pacers throughout the series.
Always good to.
Be getting that perspective from another team. Big thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Make sure you guys like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know when we're going live. If you're listening to you a podcast and you want to support, leave us a rating the review, subscribe unsubscribed, resubscribe and help cook those books. If you want to be part of Chase Doown's exclusive discord chat Sunday screenshow there view to Chase down pot
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Until next time, Go Cavs