Keith: [00:00:00] Michael, welcome to the show, man, good to see you again. [00:00:02][1.8]
Michael: [00:00:03] Thank you for having me. I think this is the first time that I'm being interviewed on a full-length podcast, so it's exciting. [00:00:10][7.3]
Keith: [00:00:11] Awesome. You made the cut on some like short-length ones, like some bite-sized ones before. [00:00:15][3.9]
Michael: [00:00:15] Yeah. You know, I've done the whole like NPR calls you and talks to you for an hour, and then they use like eight seconds of your voice in that sort of completely different context. But it's fine. [00:00:23][8.1]
Keith: [00:00:24] I'll take it. Isn't that wild? Yeah, I've done a few of those, too. Not necessarily for podcasts, but sometimes even for TV hits where you go deep, deep, deep into something. And then they take one thing where you're like, I'm excited about the future, and that's what they use. You know, like, I felt like I said more than that. But OK, yeah, yeah. So we're chatting because you started Third City Advisory. You're the founder of it. Tell us a little bit about it. What is it? What are you doing? Tell me a little bit of the backstory there. [00:00:48][24.6]
Michael: [00:00:49] So I've been in the industry for, I don't know, like 16 or maybe 17 years at this point. And even though I've been part of, like some large organizations, I've always been the guy who's been expected to have been tapped on the shoulder to pay attention to things on the bleeding edge and focus on innovation. Our focus on the intersection between media and creativity. Like, you know, quant qual or art and science perspective. And it's allowed me to spread my wings a little bit within larger organizations and explore new territories. So it's always been a thing in the back of my mind, like if I ever had an opportunity to, like, take a break from the rat race or take a break from corporate culture and do it for myself, I'd focus all of my energy on that stuff, like the stuff that I love, exploring the best or exploring the most and waking up feeling motivated about exploring altogether new territories, whether it be media or content and crypto and influencers and the intersection of all those things. It feels great to wake up in the morning and being able to focus on those things and to kind of help shape and commercialize what are, you know, essentially like ideas that are being shared by very smart people online and putting a service layer to it and helping where I can so. I've been doing it for and doing it since May 2020. Right. Although I've owned the Third City Advisory .com domain for like years now, I just never put it into action because I've always worked in other places. But, you know, I found myself in a position in May 2020 where I was a casualty of the pandemic and decided, you know? Now is as good a time as any. Maybe it's the best time to kind of double down on that idea of going out on my own and seeing where I fit without the real intention of starting my own business or starting an agency or anything like that. But, you know, putting a name to it, even like I was fortunate enough to be referred to for several projects out the gate. Some quick sprints and others that eventually became retainers. Like I didn't even have time to put a website together or get the word out about putting a name to this. I just kind of just started. In fact, I didn't even launch a website until like a month ago. I think, [00:03:02][133.4]
Keith: [00:03:03] Oh, wow, really? OK, so almost a year in [00:03:04][1.9]
Michael: [00:03:04] Pretty much a year and a half into it. Was just easier for me to to pass along a URL and say, like, Oh, here's what I've been up to versus doing the whole song and dance and having a conversation that was maybe two or three steps removed from my immediate network. So it's been working out. [00:03:20][15.5]
Keith: [00:03:21] It's awesome. And so when and why would a client reach out to you, right? Like, I know your experience, the many years where Publicis and Media Link and many other great companies. What are people reaching out to you now for and how are you helping them out? [00:03:33][12.4]
Michael: [00:03:34] A lot of it very recently has been about identifying opportunities in the emerging, if you want to call it the Web3 space. Sure. So everything having to do with DAO's and NFTs and the future of loyalty, having to do with those mechanisms, like how those things should be thought about if there's any go to market opportunity, even from a thought leadership perspective, I mean, there are progressive marketers who know as much as I know about this stuff, we're all learning together, but they need a third party to come in and say, here's an objective opinion and analysis that might contradict or conflict what the prevailing attitude is internally. And you kind of need that third-party voice from a person who has a decade and a half plus of experience working within those same walls. Right? So not just some, like futurist with a scientific background who just has a lot of opinions talking to marketing people about these pie in the sky ideas. It's like, OK, here's a lens in a POV, but here are three or four possible paths that this technology, what have you, might offer you in three, six, nine, twelve, twenty-four months. And then you tell me if you want to take it a step further by looking for opportunity to integrate it into your go-to market or your marketing plans. [00:04:50][76.1]
Keith: [00:04:51] Amazing. And you are a practitioner of this, too. I do want to go back a little bit because there are going to be a lot of words that you're going to say that I think the general public might not fully understand. So let's start with Web3. Can you give a definition of what Web three means to you and kind of what the conversations you have about Web3 are? [00:05:06][15.7]
Michael: [00:05:07] So I'll boil it down to maybe it's like if I had to explain it to a family, like an immediate family member, right? So I mean, Web three in and of itself sounds kind of intimidating. It's like it's a third version of something, right? You know, it's called Web three, because the prevailing attitude and even momentum from people that are very excited about the possibilities, it's basically the next internet. It's a reimagining of what the potential of a connected reality could be if we were all given a blank slate. And instead of relying on monolithic corporations to decide what the internet is or is not promises is that it is kind of more of a collective effort, right? A more decentralized effort in a way where everyone who is a participant in this new internet, if we want to call it that, has a vote, right? Whereas Facebook doesn't really give you a vote. Snapchat doesn't really give you a vote or Pinterest. Any of these web 2 organizations, which are great organizations. I mean, I rely on these tools every single day. I get a lot of personal value out of being able to connect with people like yourself, for example, on any one of these given platforms like Instagram or LinkedIn, like, it's the way that we just keep up with each other's lives. But I don't think any of these platforms would deny it like they're in the business of extracting value, right? Profiting off of the data that we basically exhaust on all these platforms just by going about doing our day to day business. And for a very long time, there was, I think, either an ignorance of or inadequate value exchange between the time that we put into these platforms and the data that we basically gave them in exchange for connectivity, in exchange for information, in exchange for, you know, all the great things that we have gotten an experience out of the Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and Pinterest of the world. But some would say that world, which will kind of paraphrase Web 2.0, has gone a bit too far where it's extracted more than it has returned value to the average consumer. And you can make a case that the negative externalities of activities on those platforms can now be gamed by bad actors. Some would argue that regardless of if the externalities are positive or negative for society as a whole, as long as there is a dollar to be made, it's going to keep on going until regulation or until people leave for something that's better. So to bring this full circle to directly answer your question, what is Web3 Web three kind of gives everyone an opportunity to kind of reconsider if that is the way that the internet should continue operating in the future, like from a commercial perspective. There's a lot more to it, but I'm going to try to keep it career related for this audience. But I think people like me and you, we started our career basically right after Web 1.0 ended, which was the dot com bubble burst right and then Web 2, which is based on social and streaming and really like the redefinition of like ownership of media that all changed over the past 10, 12, 13 years. Right, but now the cycle is sort of starting a new. But at the same time that, like, you know, the Web 2.0 way of doing things still exists employs a lot of our friends to a very healthy degree. Right. So that's also the fascinating part of it is like, I feel like I have a foot in two different worlds and it is kind of exhausting and keep up with both. But that's also where there's a tremendous amount of opportunity [00:08:37][210.3]
Keith: [00:08:38] for Web one, Web two. Is it too simplistic or naive to say that the early promise to both of those was decentralization, right? Yes, a lot of them came out and said linear television omniscient newspapers are coming at you with information. We're going to create a channel where you can talk and connect back. And you know, that was a promise of web 2. What are the guardrails for Web three to make sure that doesn't happen again, right? [00:09:02][23.6]
Michael: [00:09:02] Well, I want to go back to what you said about like every wave of technological change that we're calling Web one two three. They did all start with the do no evil sort of mantra, right? Like every wave has existed by very motivated young people with the goal of not destabilizing, but like redefining the role. Or I guess I can say, like kind of fighting against the institutions that came before it. Web 3 is no different. Except the institutions are all the big tech giants, all the fan companies that we love and pay for and use on a daily basis. But people that are deep in Web three feel that it's absolutely necessary that that tree get shaken and just give people different options or alternatives. And it does feel very early and it does feel very participatory and maybe egalitarian approach to interacting online. But yes, it is very similar to the vibe that is at the beginning of these waves of technological change. And this is why I'm particularly excited because I have not been this excited about the possibility and the white space and the blue sky thinking all those terms when it comes to like building things and innovating on top of existing models. Then I was when Web two first started, you know, like when I first started my career, I remember at my first agency shooting around URLs during the course of the workday like, Hey, have you seen this new thing called YouTube? I think, you know, this is really interesting. Look, it's taken a while to buffer, but I think I can upload anything in a funny story. I was on the team at Freestyle Interactive, which at the time was a subsidiary of Carat. We did one of the very first media buys on Facebook. [00:10:40][98.0]
Keith: [00:10:41] Oh wow. It was banner ads. [00:10:42][1.1]
Michael: [00:10:42] Yeah. And Kevin Caldron was our sales rep. You know, he was straight out of B.C. and we did a targeted campaign for NCAA football, which you could not have a better title because like, you know, a good percentage of those teams actually had Facebook. I think this is when Facebook was only in like 20 something universities, but a good number of those. And I remember running this campaign and it was banners. I saw the smack talking. I saw these very nascent Facebook pages light up and I was like, Man, there's something to the Facebook thing. [00:11:13][30.9]
Keith: [00:11:14] Yeah, yeah. [00:11:15][0.4]
Michael: [00:11:15] So that was very exciting. That's that was very exciting. And then we've all been around for that Facebook journey, which Facebook is representative of that whole wave of like social, the maturation of social and streaming, and the transition from like owning digital files to the streaming model. And I feel like we're at that very beginning with Web3. So it's an energy that I'm familiar with. And that's why I'm excited because I feel like there's a whole decade-plus ahead of new stuff with every big wave like you see companies big and small kind of come and go. Right. So there is as much creative destruction as there is, like building stuff that's a net new. And to me, that's entirely exciting. [00:11:53][37.4]
Keith: [00:11:54] Awesome. I don't think I shared this with you ever, but tell me if I have. It's probably a few years after that. Facebook buy I was at Microsoft, that sales planner, account manager, and we represented Facebook's inventory for a little while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had billions of impressions. And for us, it was usually kind of it was a run US network style stuff. We were never selling it. And so it was.. Just remember those days because this was probably 2007, 2008. But we got pulled in, A few of us, anybody under I would say under 27 got pulled into a room by some of the more senior executives. And they gave us the lunch and they were like, OK, guys, Facebook is it for real? What should we do here? And all of us were like, Yeah, no, we're on it the majority of our day, you should do something about this, right? And yeah, and I doubt that there's a direct correlation to this because I don't want to take credit for the what we didn't do. But like then, Microsoft invested $1.6 billion into Facebook. And, you know, Facebook continued to take off. But it was just interesting because I now look at us as a little bit of the elder statesman in the game, right? Like probably asking those questions to people 24 or 25. Have you seen where you sit at that table shift a little bit? Are you now asking younger heads? You know what's exciting? What should I be looking out for or are you still kind of playing on both ends of that table? [00:13:08][74.5]
Michael: [00:13:09] Man. I'm trying to play both ends because that's always been me, but like father time is undefeated. But I will say I've been finding myself in environments where I'm the oldest person in the room technically right. But like, I'm still thriving because I can still understand what's going on. It's just I know that my responsibility is different, right? Yeah. Like, I have access to the C-suite, I have access to decision makers or they have access to me, right? So I want to represent what's going on with these organizations and these young people that are building and make sure that their best interests are kept in mind, right? So when I get a CMO in my DMs saying like, Hey, can you put together an objective POV knowing our business because I might have known this person for a while? Just can you make me understand why you spent so much time in discord? Or can you explain what you mean when you see the utility of NFT's? Because right now I'm just seeing a lot of nonsense and a lot of weird-looking art on Twitter, but people like you seem to be really into it. So is there something below the surface or is how do I go along for this ride? Because I'm busy now? I work. I work a sixty-hour week on Web 2.0, as you would call it. Like, how far behind am I or how not far behind? And can you help me unearth some nuggets and present to my team? Just give us some direction here. Like that's a large part of my day week. I know I mentioned earlier that I'm not trying to start a business, but if I did want to claim that, that would be kind of the foundation of it is being kind of a translator. But like, you know, for example, I went to in real life meet up at Launch House, which is an organization kind of like they have like a hacker house if you want to call it that up in Beverly Hills. And I think it's Paris Hilton's old mansion, but they have like, you know, 20 or 30 people living there. They're all under the age of 30. They're all very excited about building stuff. I went there just to network and listen to some awesome programming, and I found myself having to keep up like, you know, like, I went home that night and I, I spent hours just catching up to get to 80 percent of the level that these, like twenty-five year olds were on. I say that in the best way possible, I haven't felt that motivated to get up to speed with anything digital brand marketing-related in a while. Like there are, there are entirely new ecosystems of important players and people building the technology stack, if you want to call it that or the railroads and the picks and shovels for this stuff that have very minimal overlap with our networks. Yeah. And not only do I think that's an opportunity, I think it's like anywhere between a smoke signal and a raging red flag to some companies that they're going to be displaced. You know, maybe some sooner than others. Again, I mentioned creative destruction, but also building new stuff. I think it's all going to happen in the next decade, and it's going to be like some of it's going to be obvious and some of it's just going to be like coming out of nowhere, but it's going to hit a lot of people. [00:16:11][181.8]
Keith: [00:16:11] Do you feel like companies now are more aware of that, right? Because I do agree with you, 10- 15 years ago, you and I were screaming Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, these things are going to change the way people communicate, and a lot of people are like, All right, dude. [00:16:23][12.3]
Michael: [00:16:24] Yeah. So I kind of do your little Twitter thing. [00:16:26][2.0]
Keith: [00:16:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you think that companies are just more aware of that and understand that they have to embrace the future, have to look at innovation now? [00:16:34][7.3]
Michael: [00:16:35] I think it's 50/50 right now from where I sit. But you know, again, I sitin an interesting place like I try to situate myself in between these two cultures. I think there are more people than you would think that our heads down within large global organizations that are thinking very hard about this stuff or being recruited specifically to build out a team or to explore this new territory. The question is, will their organizations be flexible enough to incorporate their ideas and their ways of working in their ways of thinking into their established ways of working? Yeah. Right. So it's a culture thing, right? Because you can be and I found myself in this position at least a couple of times in my career where like, I have so much conviction that you know what I'm focusing my time on or the of I put together is scalable or does have an addressable market or is something that could be a revenue generator. Add to the bottom line. I know the feeling of hitting a brick wall just because the culture overwhelmingly wants to hear it, but doesn't want to act on it. You know, there's like there's an inertia problem there. Right, so I've talked to people at Fortune, one hundred brands that have, you know, anywhere between three to 10 people that are with three people to different extents. Right? You know, maybe it's ARV, our XR, or maybe it's like metaverse stuff, or maybe it's virtual goods, or maybe it's like, Hey, be a discord expert with like half of your social media time. But all these people I consider to be part of theWeb three tapestry, like some of them are in organizations where they've essentially gotten a career boost. Absolutely. Because their companies will put them on a pedestal and say, like they'll champion them. But other organizations were like, I stopped short of saying, like, Dude, you got to get out because if you don't, you're going to find yourself being the smartest person in an organization that will be the first to ignore you where you're creating so much value. It has to escape the walls of your organization because you kind of owe it to not only like the broader community, but to yourself, man. And you can tell that I'm being very animated when I say this, because again, I feel like I've been in this position where maybe I should have stepped out earlier than I did, or maybe I should have navigated it in a different way. But know I'm trying not to name names, but I will. I will give props to an organization like Playboy, for example. You know, talk to Rachel Webber a little bit online. Discord France. Now they have a healthy Discord channel and they're building a DAO around it. So it's all. It's interesting that they've done a lot of like NFT stuff like they have a Web3 team. That's amazing. You know, Playboy is, you know, it's a legacy print organization that has pivoted, you know, a few times over the past decade from a Web3 perspective, like they have some smart hardcore people and they're like way ahead of other digital organizations. So it's when stuff low incongruent growth stuff like that happens. You know that like it's a function of good leaders with open minds and internal culture like Playboy has an excellent web three internal culture. I don't know everything that they're doing. They've done way more experimentation in this calendar year than, like most Fortune 500 companies, and they should be applauded for that. [00:19:44][189.2]
Keith: [00:19:45] And is that they're hiring people externally or are they allowing people to learn on the fly because this is also new? Yeah. And it's interesting because I just feel like the people that are succeeding right now are the ones that are putting the energy into learning. Yeah, you can't come and say you have 10 years of Web3 experience right now. [00:20:02][17.1]
Michael: [00:20:03] That would be like, pass on this guy [00:20:04][1.6]
Keith: [00:20:04] major red flag. [00:20:05][0.6]
Michael: [00:20:05] Yeah, but what was web three, 10 years ago? It was nothing. I don't know the exact answer for Playboy specifically. I think it's a combination, but like these people are dedicated, this team, it's called the Web3 team, so that you know, they're serious because you wouldn't want to fake the funk that way. I will say, though, that like trying to keep more than just a toe in Web 2, which still pays me. And Web3, which I'm trying to establish myself more in, is exhausting. Like I said, it's totally different network or, you know, it's more or less a totally different network of people. There's some overlap and the overlap is where it gets interesting. But the sources of information are different. The language is different. The flow of information is like if you think that keeping up with ad tech and more tech is like a fire hose. Web three is like ten fire hoses. Twenty-four-seven. So it's just, you know, I wake up in a panic. Sometimes I'm like, you know, on a Saturday, I'm like, Maybe this is when I catch up on all my Discord chats. Oh man. Yeah, maybe that'll figure itself out over time. This is the energy at the beginning of every technological wave. It's just that now people are more willing to share and it's out in the open, which is again part of the web three mantra. It's like, we're all kind of transparently like building together, celebrating wins, but also telling each other to watch out for bad actors. Because that's the other thing about the beginnings of technological waves that you get a lot of weird things going on. [00:21:19][73.4]
Keith: [00:21:20] Yeah, the snake oil salesman perked their heads up and start to market it and sell themselves. Yeah, I want to do a couple more definitions to help out with things. So DAO, you've mentioned that a couple of times. What is DAO? [00:21:29][9.6]
Michael: [00:21:30] So I'm going to butcher this, by the way, like everyone in Web3 world who might listen to this is going to like DM me and say I gave the wrong definition, but boil it down by its acronym definition is decentralized autonomous organization. OK. I think a tangible way to explain it is imagine if you were part of a revenue generating organization like a business, right? Except the activities of that business were not necessarily dictated by just the C-suite and the board. Major decisions i.e. investments or new product development, or things that are usually decided upon by, like very senior people, were instead decided upon by all employees and you were all invested in the success of the business because you're all literally shareholders in the organization. [00:22:20][49.6]
Keith: [00:22:21] Very cool. And it's more one to one than like a, you know, Mark Zuckerberg, who has 40 percent of Facebook shares and gets 40 million votes. This is a little bit more one to one. [00:22:30][8.8]
Michael: [00:22:31] Every DAO is different. OK? Some days have more of a one-to-one structure. The more sophisticated it gets, the more there has to be kind of like levels and tranches, but it does feel more like the more you put into it. The more you'll get out of it, like, know some doubts, they award you tokens or they pay you to participate in DAO activities. So in that way, it's sort of one-to-one effort in token out. And as some of these DAO's kind of scale and become organizations that even VCs want to invest in and that established businesses want to investigate it as a mode of operation. There are some people that like to talk about DAOs as the potential successor to the Delaware C Corp. All right. People even want to take it that far. When you think about the American Corporation as an institution, I mean, it's been around forever and it hasn't changed that much. I mean, there's layers of legal you can stack on top of what the original intention of the American corporation was. But in a way, a DAO is kind of a back to basics reimagining of how a modern business should function from a stakeholder perspective. Whereas I think our brand of commercial capitalism right now is very its shareholder base. [00:23:44][73.1]
Keith: [00:23:44] Absolutely. [00:23:44][0.0]
Michael: [00:23:45] Yeah. And I don't know. I feel like we're all living in a world where we experience both the positive and negative externalities of what a shareholder-based capitalist system brings with it. You can re-imagine like a DAO being like, OK, well, let's broaden that a bit. Let's not enrich just shareholders, but let's see if there can be a more community aspect of this. I think it remains to be seen whether that could be maintained in the long run. But again, like we like we had mentioned, like the beginning of this wave,it is very altruistic. I say that in the most positive way possible and for the doubts that I have participated in, it feels good. There's a sense of community, there's a sense of ownership, there's literally a sense of ownership because the more successful the DAO is, if there's a commercial model there, the better you do because you own tokens that are worth something. Yeah. One of the things that really excites me is URL to IRL relationships. Transitioning into real-life meet-ups were extensions of the DAO, or even if just like a Discord channel or community that's happening more often as well. And I think it's a relief from the isolation and the pandemic, but it's also interesting to like, you know, just be around people who you might not have a ton in common with other than you're very interested in what the future of the internet could be. Yeah. You know, even being in an industry setting or a commercial setting where people are talking mostly about ideas are mostly about what could be. It reminds me of like what it was like 10 or 12 years ago when we're all thinking of what you know, what broadband could bring, what smartphones could bring. And that's all mature now. So it feels great to be an idea. First environments, it's a very reinvigorating. [00:25:13][87.8]
Keith: [00:25:14] Yeah, that's very exciting. Yeah, because so much of web too now is iterative, right of just like, what's the next little bit that we can kind of incrementally add to it? Right? Last definition, I swear, but I think this will help us kind of move into the next side NFTs. I think that's the one that if you're a casual observer of all of this, you've probably seen on Twitter, right? People changing their avatars to the NFTs that they've purchased and people creating in that world. Explain a little bit of what NFT is, is what it is now and then the potential of it, because I'm very bullish on the potential, but I'm pretty skeptical of these kind of cartoon JPEGs that are out right now, how they play into the future. [00:25:50][35.9]
Michael: [00:25:51] So I'm going to temper, I guess, my definition because I think the definition of what the NFT landscape is going to be different, you know, a month, three months from now, definitely a year from now. But NFT stands for non-fungible token. So the way I like to explain it to people is that in our web two world by using an external touchpoint is sort of like when you're collecting art like physical art. We're not talking about JPEGs right now. There are only so many ways that you can verify that what you own and have up on your wall is real. Right, right. And the art world, it's a certificate of authenticity that is signed by a gallery auction house, but it's literally a piece of paper. It's a certificate that says the provenance of this object is verified by this trusted body. This trust layer that is this institution and the value of this object that's hanging on your wall is, you know, it has intrinsic value, right? Like it's literally a physical thing on the wall. But most of its value in total is based on its provenance, like someone painted it. And this person might be of note or they might be famous, or they might be one of the big art names, right? It's this piece of art specifically has been displayed in this gallery or this museum or this institution that allows this object to accrue quote unquote value over time. So in a way, NFT's are an evolution of that certificate of authenticity. It is proof that lives on the blockchain, that you are the owner of something digital. OK? And maybe for another conversation, we can introduce the idea of that being linked to something physical as well. But that's a much larger conversation that's still being investigated by the Web three world at large. So you mentioned JPEGs, and you're referring to these projects that are essentially, I mean, they look like cartoons, but you know, they're art, quote unquote they're art. I mean, you [00:27:48][117.2]
Keith: [00:27:48] remind me of like Gorillaz albums, right? They look like they're fun. They're cool. [00:27:52][3.6]
Michael: [00:27:52] But I mean, I think people from the fine art world are very skeptical because art is subjective, right? But the prevailing kind of look and feel of the art right now for NFT projects does feel illustrated. I mean, a lot of them are generative. They're generated digitally randomly through algorithms, but they look like cartoons, which is sad. Yeah, right? You know, the web 2 definition of owning a digital object kind of never existed, right? Like, you could send me a photo and I could, you know, right click, save it, save it on my desktop and send it to everyone I know via any mode of digital transmission, right? I can text it to people. I can send emails like, Oh, like, I can make an infinite number of copies, right? Yeah. Any one of these NFT is that may look like cartoons or whatever. You know, I could do the same thing. I could take a screenshot of any one of them and send it to whoever I want. But I don't own it because the definition of ownership of an NFT is determined by the blockchain that it resides on. And it's an immutable ledger, so you can't fake that you own something that you can't connect to its place on the blockchain. So a certificate of authenticity, quote unquote in the form of an NFT, resides on a blockchain that states that you are the sole owner of this digital object. Got it! I might have butchered that, and I know it takes a bit of thinking to wrap your head around, but it's no different than the contract. A land deed like why can't anyone who walks off the street like walk into your home and say, like, Oh, this is my house now. It's like, You know what? Because I own this property, the bank says. So it's on this piece of paper, you know, it's sort of the same conceit, but there's so much more that goes into it because I feel like ownership of art is one thing. It's the very start. And this relates to what I just said about like, you know, land ownership or homeownership, like the idea of smart contracts being able to be programmed on the blockchain, like within the smart contracts of these NFTs is even, you know, they serve the same function as real world legal contracts. And they can be programmed in such a way where a lot of the friction that exists in that very paper dominated world right now can be, you know, a world in which a lot of that stuff is automated or it doesn't have to go through a bunch of humans to say, like, yes, this person is the rightful owner of A, B, and C. It's like, Oh, like, look, what does it say on the blockchain? It's immutable, so no one can mess with it, right? No one could obfuscate it. Really, it's a public ledger so we can come to a determination of who owns what and what the provenance of that is in a split second. [00:30:21][148.4]
Keith: [00:30:21] One of the cooler things in my early education of this is the artist's ability to get a commission every time that it gets resolved, which just again gives more ownership back to the artists, right? Like that seems really cool, and that seems a little bit more definitive in terms of helping out a group of creatives and continuing to grow there. So I thought, I always think that that part is pretty interesting, and then I could see how that plays into the music world and into the fashion world, into other places where if people are selling things, sneaker world, right on a reseller market, there'll be that two to three percent commission back to the original creator of it. [00:30:56][34.3]
Michael: [00:30:56] Yeah, yeah. And that percentage can be 10, 15 percent, 20 percent. And it is interesting to think about a world that a working artist can thrive in, right? Like everyone thinks of, like a whole starving artist trope has been around in our lifetime. The art is always seen different in different epics of civilization, but we might be entering one where you could be like a working artist and be able to live sort of like a healthy life from an economic perspective. Yeah, you don't need to be famous, you don't need to have your stuff because that's the only way to really win. Quote unquote, as an artist now, right from a commercial perspective, is if you sell out, quote-unquote, and become a commercial artist because that's the only time money really rolls in. But even then, with a current system, you lose control because one of the big auction houses sells your painting. If you don't have an airtight contract, you're not owed any residuals off that secondary sale, right? You kind of see your hard work and your vision kind of. Other people kind of realize the value of that. But if your art is connected to an NFT, you can dictate the smart contract of that piece of art to say every time this art is sold in the secondary market, or if it changes hands, that artist gets a defined percentage of that transaction in perpetuity for their whole life. Yeah, which is kind of unheard of. [00:32:19][82.5]
Keith: [00:32:21] Yeah, I think that's such a massive opportunity. I'm going to switch gears a little bit here. I want you to think back to young Miraflor, right? You grew up in California, right? Yeah. Growing up, California, were you fascinated with technology and innovation at a young age? Or was it something that your parents put in front of you? Or is it something that came a little bit later in life? [00:32:37][15.8]
Michael: [00:32:37] It was something that I was always into. I remember in second grade, my school got like Apple 2 E, that was my first interaction, and it could [00:32:46][8.7]
Keith: [00:32:46] like Carmen San Diego [00:32:47][0.9]
Michael: [00:32:48] and Carmen San Diego like logo is my favorite little turtle that could do geometric shapes. That was an intro to programming and did some like Oregan trail kind of stuff, whatever, but it was like, you know, on a four-color monitor. I grew up in an immigrant family. I didn't have that much money to spend on extra things, but I am thankful that my parents purchased, you know, a standard-issue home PC. It's funny because at school I would be glued to this like Apple. But then my parents got her family a PC, and I just got obsessed with that thing, like figuring, Yeah, this is before windows. So it was all command like MS stuff. And then I started to do what I guess, you know, every super curious pre-teen does. You know, I grabbed a screwdriver and I opened it and try to figure out what the hell is doing. So I spent my teenage years saving money. I built my own PCs. I was more of a hardware person. I was incentivized about wanting to play like my cool 3D games and like squeezing out every ounce of performance out of these pieces. I never got into like programing, though I don't know if I wish I did, I feel like exposure to computing in general, tooling around in my stores, and understanding how that sort of early machine language work. I guess that counts as some sort of like functional programming, but like I never got into like, Oh, let's create my own game, right? I was always more into, I want to figure out how this works, and I was just fascinated with the idea of being able to upgrade a machine to work better or to display something that was more impressive or that had interesting capability. And that just stuck with me. And that's kind of my approach when it comes to my career, I guess. I don't work in tech per se, but I do like to deconstruct things that from the outside seem quite complicated because it always breaks down into things that are more easily digestible. Like that early computing, therefore, and like, you know, literally having to translate with and for my parents all throughout childhood because they're immigrants from the Philippines like I feel like I just grew up with the ability to like, translate complexity into something that is in bite-sized chunks and to things that people can understand and be excited about. [00:34:48][120.0]
Keith: [00:34:48] Yeah. You know, I've noticed that there's two types of marketers, right? There's a marketer who will come to you and say, I've seen this movie hundreds of times. Let me take over. Let me show you how this generation is similar to this generation. And then there's the curious the person that goes, well, I need to learn a lot more. What I've always loved about you and respected about you is you were always a curious person and you're trying to find new ways to connect on things. How would you recommend somebody who's curious about Web3 and DAOs and NFT's and all these other things that are going on to dove into it, right? Sometimes. I know you mentioned that it feels really inclusive and energetic and exciting, but it's also pretty darn scary and daunting, right? Because people are throwing acronyms around in new definitions and moving so fast. And it just feels like sometimes you know, the meme of like, Hello, fellow kids like feels like that sometimes, right? [00:35:35][46.4]
Michael: [00:35:35] Like now I felt like that a few times. I'd like to say that, like the official unofficial comms channel of Web three is Twitter, OK? You know, there's a lot of hype on Twitter as well. There's a lot of NFT hype, but there's also, you know, everyone who is like building something that I think will be meaningful, like the people building the railroads and selling the picks and shovels are kind of imagining what those things will be there on Twitter. And they're sharing openly so you can passively learn by just following the right people or like creating a list and like checking in on it. And it's one of those things where, yeah, you're going to have to do a little bit of homework, like dip out into Google and find out what these acronyms are or whatever. But like, you just take an hour a day to, scour the web to figure out what these people are talking about. It's like it compounds very quickly like the learning curve is very steep, but the compounding is like an insane API or whatever you find yourself. If you're the person to be naturally curious or motivated, you're going to want to know. So you will put in the time. So it's just a function of how much time you want to put into it or how much time you have in a day. Hope that answers the question. [00:36:40][65.3]
Keith: [00:36:41] Now that's a great answer. Yeah. And you and I have talked for many years about diversity, inclusion on the agency side, in the publishing side. And, you know, a lot of the conversations that I've had with people when they decided to leave their corporate world to go into business by themselves, started with George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. But what's interesting is some people have said it's actually it was after that when I saw that my company made a statement but didn't really do anything about it. What have you seen from the marketing and agency world where some of these things are platitudes and some of them are actually working and you're seeing some people do real work in this space now? Oh man, I got a big smile out of you at this one. [00:37:18][36.9]
Michael: [00:37:18] You're going to get me. You're going to get me in trouble. Doesn't matter how I answer, it's like, oh, well, you know, people have done stuff that your people haven't done... Being a short brown dude, you know, existing in the executive class in some of the places I worked in, it's not easy. I've been able to do it depending on what your attitude is about code-switching. I know that there's a negative connotation. There's a positive connotation. I've been able to do that. But I also feel like this goes back to the whole curiosity thing like I think people recognize, like no matter what I look like or where I'm from, I'm obsessed with new things. I'm obsessed with figuring out different ways that businesses respond to marketing challenges. And this is why I've been able to dip in luxury. I'm sitting in a building right now, working on a huge luxury project. It's like I didn't come from that world. Can I act like I've been there? Like, Yeah, because I've learned enough about how it all works, from the people to the business to the dynamics and mechanics of how that all happens. Same thing with technology. Same thing with like any business that I work on. But there's always a bit extra that I feel like I have to deal with and it gets heavier as I get older or more senior in my career. I think I even had people early in my career who told me it's going to get easier. And a part of why it's going to get easier for you. Young millennial at the time is because, by the time you are my age, more of the C-suite executive class or whatever is going to look like you. It's inevitable, right? And here we are. Like, I don't know, 15, 16 years later, and it's really not true. [00:38:47][88.9]
Keith: [00:38:48] Didn't happen now. Didn't happen, didn't happen. [00:38:50][2.5]
Michael: [00:38:50] And there's guilt that's associated with that. Like, did I not bring enough people with me, right? And then there's a shit, maybe I just got lucky. And then you start questioning your value and your skills, right? And then you start to judge opportunities that may not work out. Ascribing that to a certain part of you that you maybe wouldn't have if it didn't get heavier over the course of one's career. So it is something that I think about. I think about it more than I talk about it whenever I do talk about it. I get, like, weird. I get either an enthusiastic response or silence, right? So it's not that I don't want to talk about that stuff. I just feel like there's a time and a place. And I don't want to waste my energy and the energy of people who I know are on my side and think about this. And, you know, behind closed doors, we commiserate over some of this stuff to an audience that might not give a shit. I wouldn't say I have an approach at this point, but if anyone who I can see myself in reaches out and want some advice. Sure, this advice is free, man. But I'm not going to. I'm not going to candy-coat it and tell you what someone my age told me when I was your age. I'm very afraid of saying the wrong thing or not articulating what I feel because it's it's very nuanced, but [00:40:05][74.8]
Keith: [00:40:06] that's the problem with this. It's so nuanced, right? That's the difficulty with this is [00:40:06][0.0]
Michael: [00:40:10] The thing I hated coming out of George Floyd and also coming out of StopAsianHate now is that. It felt like and I know every business is different, every corporation has its different sort of setups for dealing with this sort of thing. But overwhelmingly, it has felt like the burden of fixing these systemic problems fell on the shoulders of people who are directly affected. Absolutely. Yeah. It's like you look around. It's like, OK, things are happening. Then you look around. It's like, Wait a second, this is our shit that we're dealing with, and now we have to fix it. Yeah. Like, you know, this is not what this is all about or the people who and who are in charge that have the budgets, who if they show up like things will change. Yeah. [00:40:51][40.6]
Keith: [00:40:52] There's a James Baldwin quote. I'm going to butcher it, but it's something, you know, civil rights is not a black person's problem. It's a white person's problem. Like, you have to figure this out, right? And they've said 40, 50 years ago, and it's right. Right? I think for so many people, there's a reluctance to kind of come to the table and say, Hey, I was part of the problem, and now I want to be part of the solution. And so they put it on. They put it on the black and the brown folks in their offices to make that happen. I know we've been out an hour and I know we're just getting real hope. But I want to respect your time. So I'll wrap up with asking you, what is the next year look like for you? Ideally, what is Third City look like in 2022? [00:41:29][36.8]
Michael: [00:41:30] We get acquired by a really big holding company and now just getting. You know, I'm still operating at a freelance capacity and I'm at the point where it would be great if I could hire someone. Yeah, it's kind of spread it a little bit. But at that point, then I have to acknowledge that I ran a small business and I don't know if that's what I want to do. You know, the thing about freelancing, and I've never done it before is that it could be a lonely place sometimes. Absolutely. And I know you feel that as well. It's like, I miss having a team, I miss having resources. I actually like being a good manager, and I'm proud to say that I think most people who I've worked with and for me would say the same thing about me. I just get energy off of that, and I genuinely like seeing people kind of grow up within a system or a team that I'm a part of leading and seeing people thrive. I miss that a lot. [00:42:21][51.6]
Keith: [00:42:21] Yeah, same that. That's the biggest thing that I miss, man, is seeing the people that were shaky or excited and helping them grow and seeing them get promoted and seeing them take on new things. So I feel you on that. [00:42:34][12.2]
Michael: [00:42:34] So part of me feels like I want to get back in the game. Like, what is that game, though? Is it working for a crypto web company? Is that the next chapter in my career is going all-in on Web3, quote-unquote? A lot of people are doing that. It's amazing to see people who are even quitting comfy fang jobs before they fully vest because they're so into and excited about, like the new world. It's like, Oh, shoot, like, like if you do, you have this much conviction? Maybe it, maybe I lack conviction. I don't know. But like, you know, it's you know, but also like I miss in a weird way, I miss agency life. [00:43:08][33.6]
Keith: [00:43:08] What about it? The big pitch, trying to win a new client, the ability to go, you know, because you were awesome also at going to these conferences and coming back with real information where most people went and got a headache, you came back with really all of it. What about the attitude [00:43:21][13.0]
Michael: [00:43:22] of it, man? Like, I didn't just drink the juice when it came to that stuff. I made the cocktails. I missed the thrill of winning a new business pitch. That sense of urgency. I mean, like, it's exhausting, right? But you don't get a bigger thrill than having to fly somewhere and present this thing that you've been working on for months. High-pressure situation. And there's creativity and there's data and intense pressure to perform. It's like, I don't know, but I miss that. So I don't know. Like, maybe I'll split the difference and I'll end up somewhere in between like I'm trying to do now, but like in a more meaningful way, like a bit of a translator between cultures. But worst-case scenario, I'll be doing what I'm doing right now, which is not a bad place to be this past, what, 18 months or whatever has been crazy. And you know, like my whole life was turned upside down, I lost a lot of things in life. Things happen in an unexpected way. I switched coasts, try to live the dream and be bi-coastal, which sounds great but is expensive and kind of tiring. And yeah, I think everyone who's tried to live that life that doesn't have a ton of money has to just decide, like, OK, where am I going to lay down some routes? So I'm in the process of doing that right now, and maybe that will determine exactly what I'll be doing in the next year. But I'm not lying when I say I'm more excited than I am anything else. You know, again, this past year and a half has been a crazy roller coaster, and not all of it has been fun. Even the highs are kind of like, I guess I tend to worry about things more than average, but there's a whole lot to learn about. Like running a small business in a solo business as well. The things to do and not to do with money and how to incorporate and how to like, you know, how to market yourself and how to charge for your time is something that I'm still learning. Yeah. [00:45:05][103.1]
Keith: [00:45:06] And how to actually get that money that you charge for? [00:45:08][2.1]
Michael: [00:45:08] Oh man. I think one that's like, Oh, maybe if I sent my invoice through this system, that is more official it versus like, you know, me putting it like all that stuff. [00:45:19][10.6]
Keith: [00:45:20] Maybe if I physically mail it to [00:45:21][1.3]
Michael: [00:45:21] maybe just show up, show up like a Hey, I know this isn't at 30 and I know you think that 30 means in that 60, but like, it's 90 days now and now like, I got it, you know? Yes. So, yeah, I guess I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going, but I'm trying to not put pressure on myself to decide because everything is so dynamic right now. [00:45:46][24.6]
Keith: [00:45:46] Yeah, that's fair. That's very fair. Can I ask you actually one more definition, because it's something I think both you and I have been fascinated with the last five years. Premium, mediocre. I love that term better. It's kind of ruined my mind because now I look and see that almost everything is pretty premium Mediocre in our world these days. But what does it mean to you? [00:46:05][19.2]
Michael: [00:46:06] I think there are several definitions. The one that I point to the most is when an average consumer can be tricked, that a product is of higher quality. Because of its esthetics and the way that it markets, soI don't want to say like lipstick on a pig, but you know, there are certain products that they justify their premium because of superior branding and marketing, not product, but they're also kind of justifies the role that branding and marketing has in brand building in our modern world. For better or for worse? [00:46:45][38.5]
Keith: [00:46:46] Yeah, absolutely. I think you nailed it with that definition. That's spot on. I totally agree with that one. I think, you know, branding has gotten so good that it's become commonplace where I think personally, when I look at the DTC brands and I look at the new wave of things that go, well, this is beautiful and fantastic and it fits right in with all the other esthetics. But is it a good product, right? And I don't know. I'd love to hear from you. Do you think the branding is kind of got too far away from the actual product and people are way more focused on the esthetic and the look versus the actual specs of the product? [00:47:16][29.9]
Michael: [00:47:16] I think we're seeing some of the fallout from that. I think we're seeing it from a consumer level where you're getting more people showing up on Tik Tok with these premium mediocre products and trying to tell you where in the world, why they're premium mediocre, even if they don't use the term premium mediocre or you're seeing it in the performance of some of these companies in the markets. Post IPO, when you're like, Oh, that valuation, which was driven a lot by a brand promise that was predicated a lot on your marketing activity and your brand building prowess, but I think the markets can kind of sniff out when a product is subpar or when a business isn't healthy or doesn't have its fundamentals down. So I think we're seeing the natural course of this era play out. I think it is definitely in the future. We're going to look back to it as a specific era of brands being born quite easily because of all, you know, all the turnkey things that we have access to launch a brand online and then outsourcing of production to places outside the country. A combination of those things is like, Yeah. We had some great things born out of that era, but we also had a lot of questionable. [00:48:22][65.5]
Keith: [00:48:24] Businesses, yeah, a lot of millennial pink backgrounds in cursive and a lot of the very similar esthetics. Michael, this has been super fun and real quickly. How can people get in touch with you? What's the easiest way to reach out and connect with you? [00:48:35][11.6]
Michael: [00:48:36] Easiest way is probably on Twitter. So my handle is my first and last name together. Michael Miraflor And yeah, and shoot me the dm probably the easiest way. It's like a weird order of operations, like how do you get a hold of you? Here are the eight ways, but Twitter is probably the one that I pay attention to the most if you don't have my personal phone number, but I put those on an equal plane at this point. Awesome. [00:48:53][17.7]
Keith: [00:48:54] Michael Floor, founder of Third City Advisory Thank you so much for being here, man. Appreciate it. [00:48:58][4.2]
Michael: [00:48:58] Thank you so much, Keith. [00:48:58][0.0]
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