Keith H: [00:00:02] All right. Keith Stoeckler, welcome to the show, [00:00:04][2.0]
Keith S: [00:00:05] Keith, that feels weird saying that it's an honor. You know, when you sent me a note, the ability to talk to another Keith is very rare for me. So I'm like, Let's do it, man. [00:00:13][8.3]
Keith H: [00:00:14] I was going to say the same thing. It's very rare that I'm in the same room with another Keith. And, you know, oftentimes my name is confused. I don't know if you get this is what I get, Kevin. [00:00:22][8.1]
Keith S: [00:00:22] A lot is going to say Kevin a lot. Yep. [00:00:24][1.5]
Keith H: [00:00:24] And then I get told I look like a Dave. I don't know if you've ever done that one, but that's the one. I get a lot where I can see that you don't look like a Keith. You look like a Dave. I'm like, Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate that. So, Keith, welcome. Excited to have you on. Especially, you know, it seems like your company has really grown in the last year since we talked about you starting it. Let's start there. What is Heartlent Group and walk us through a little bit of what you're doing on your day to day? [00:00:49][24.3]
Keith S: [00:00:49] Yes, a Heartlent group is a social content, sports-focused agency. We primarily focus in sports, but we do work outside of that, and I would say the work is really the stuff we care about. We were blessed to be able to do some social good work, and I would wrap it all up with, you know, if the brief comes in or the opportunity comes in and it's something that's exciting to us or we just care about, that's where we're spending our time these days, which has been really rewarding. [00:01:14][25.1]
Keith H: [00:01:15] It's great. We'll talk a lot about the sports stuff. So let's talk a little bit about that social good. You did some work with the Biden-Harris campaign as well as around COVID vaccine awareness, correct? Yes. Yeah. How did that stuff come to fruition? [00:01:27][12.2]
Keith S: [00:01:28] So it started. The agency really started. And I don't mean to say like, we got this project and we started the agency. The first project we got after we started the agency was a Rock the Vote project around the presidential election, and it started with We want to do 20 or 25 NBA or NBA adjacent players or personalities to campaign to get our exercise. Your right to vote doesn't matter who you vote for. Just make sure your vote is counted, right? And in talking about it, it grew to like what we should do. 50 or so. Let's do a mural. Let's put it out front of TNT in Atlanta or Turner in Atlanta. And then we just couldn't stop and we ended up doing close to 400 and it branched off into the NFL. Once Rock the Vote saw what we were doing. They took over week eight of last season and we did a number of football players as well. And that is really what put us on the map. And then from there, Biden-Harris called and I remember it like it was yesterday. I was driving. I pulled over in a grocery store. I couldn't believe somebody from the Biden-Harris campaign is calling to work with you. Because as you and I know, the years we've had in this industry, I've never had the opportunity to work on a presidential campaign or anything close to it. So it was really humbling to be three months into this thing we had called Heartlent Group and you get this call and they say, Hey, we're wrapping up Wisconsin. We need you guys in the final three weeks of the push. [00:02:57][89.3]
Keith H: [00:02:58] So that's so cool. It was awesome. How did they hear about you? Was it work that he had done prior? Was it friend of friend? [00:03:03][5.6]
Keith S: [00:03:04] Social.. I mean, we basically put out because we had no other work at that time. Hundreds of these Rock the Vote pieces. So it's one of those things where it's a numbers game. At some point somebody is going to see this thing. I believe that's what happened. It also, it sounded like we were recommended and had nothing to do with Rock the Vote, but somebody. And as I've learned in these political campaigns, a lot of them are contractors, freelance strategists. They have other things they're doing. They just set aside time to work on this campaign. So I think somebody close to them got wind or saw what we were doing and connected the dots. [00:03:37][33.3]
Keith H: [00:03:38] Very cool. And you know, all the work that you put out there. What I love about the work and what I think probably attracts most people to it is there's a strong design esthetic and it's its own right. Like, there's a lot of talk in the marketing world, especially in the world of the blending of marketing using the same color schematic in the same font. You guys are going a little bit of a different way. Can you talk about how branded design plays into the work that you do? [00:04:00][22.2]
Keith S: [00:04:01] Yeah. No, I love what you said because I do think things can get pretty stale or mediocre, I'll say. So I'm glad that the work is standing on its own and speaking for itself. I have no real other way of describing it other than it's pushed. My partner, the creative director Elliott always has said to me, We've got to push it more. Let's push it more. And it took me a while to understand what that meant. And now I feel like we have a very symbiotic relationship where I understand what he means. But it's one of those things where, yeah, this is good, but it could be so much better if we did this. And it's not a sense of us not being happy or being perfectionists. It's just what can we do to really put this thing over the edge? And then you have that approach or you have that mentality combined with Elliot's, in my opinion, rare talent to get somebody's likeness as well as he does. It's very clear who this person is. And in sports, you know, I'll take the Bucks who just won the Super Bowl. A lot of people freelance or otherwise were putting out their Tom Brady graphics after the Bucks win I got to tell you, I mean, half of them, if not wearing a number 12 jersey, I couldn't tell you that was Tom Brady, you know what I mean. [00:05:11][69.9]
Keith H: [00:05:11] It's like a lot of the courtroom picture. I don't know there. So much of it just looked like that where it's like, Yeah, that could literally be anybody's face. And that's it. [00:05:19][7.4]
Keith S: [00:05:19] But and because you put them in a number 12 jersey, OK, that's Brady. So I think our attention to detail and we get it right and then we want to push it a little bit more, even more so than the brief is asking, you know, like, that's cool. The kind of like Rock the Vote. That's great. Twenty-five athletes, cool. Let's do that. But what if we did this and you just get to a place that neither ourselves or the client kind of expects going into it? [00:05:42][23.5]
Keith H: [00:05:43] That's awesome. Now let's talk a little bit about your bona fides, right? So you were at Publicist. Carmichael Lynch, Fleishman Hilliard, MKTG. A lot of these bigger companies holding companies, right that manage billions of dollars. What made you want to go out on your own? [00:05:58][15.1]
Keith S: [00:05:59] Sadly, I'm going to say it was the nature of our industry. Coming up I was working with creative directors ECD's and they would leave and they would go freelance and I was like, Why? I mean, I don't, I don't get it. And then I've come to learn in the last handful of years, like our industry has a really bad age problem. Like you age out of this industry. So once I figure that out, I'm in my thirties, I'm like, OK, let me circle 40 on the calendar and say, I'm either running something big or I'm going to do my own thing. And I didn't know what that look like. And Heartlent Group has been the manifestation of everything. So this makes so much sense to me. But I couldn't see that years ago, but I just knew that I had to get up the ladder as fast as I could to be of importance so that I'm less likely to be taken out back and shown another scenario. But and maybe this is another question. Heartlent Group was spun out of COVID due to a layoff. It was the second layoff I experienced. I experienced one about 10 years ago, landed on my feet, as most do. But you don't know that when you're first going through it, for sure. Catastrophic at the time. But I think experiencing that, I kind of mentally knew like, OK, I know what to expect. I know what to do. And in the last handful of years, I've had that goal in mind of like, well, what am I working towards? And I started to think about my own thing and what would be different about it and why would I enjoy that? And those realities start getting clearer and then COVID hit. And I was thinking about laying off, furloughing 20 something people on my team, not all of them, but like, So who is it? And that's just an agonizing decision. And I think it's as mutual of a decision as it could have been that this is the right time. I'll take whatever fate is coming. And I suggested that, hey, maybe you look my way when you guys at that level make a decision. So it was, I think, a combination of a lot of things, but it felt really like the right time. And some of the bigger things that you have to think about when you start a business, I mean, we don't have an office, haven't had an office for a year because we haven't had a need to. And immediately day one, we open up shop, we're talking to clients over Zoom, and that's not weird. It would have been months prior, so it was the perfect time. [00:08:21][141.3]
Keith H: [00:08:21] Yeah, it's a lot different, you know, than talking with a lot of people who started their businesses during COVID. You don't need all that overhead where you even backtrack two or three years ago, you had to kind of fake it till you make it and get an office in we work or rent a space to impress potential clients. But you didn't have to do that to win these clients, it really was about the work. [00:08:38][16.3]
Keith S: [00:08:39] Yeah, I think that's what it's been stripped down to, and I'm such an advocate now of what offices will be to people. Like I never bought into the ping pong table and the free snacks and the beverage things always open. And guys, guess what? We can drink alcohol at two o'clock. That doesn't matter. And if that's really what's been interesting to you and that's what's made the decision by all means, I know a lot of people at Facebook, I know that cafeteria and the fact that you don't necessarily ever need to cook for yourself is a pretty big bonus. But it never worked for me at agencies. And now we go through COVID and it's like, you don't have those things. It comes down to the people, it comes down to the agency itself and how you treat people. And I think you want to get into the name of Heartlent that was purposeful. That's the combination of heart and talent. We approach this as if we work with good people and we are good people that will bring more good to us. I do believe I won't go so far as karma, but just do good work and be good to each other. That's in the footer of our site. [00:09:46][67.1]
Keith H: [00:09:46] Yeah, like, that's it. [00:09:47][1.3]
Keith S: [00:09:48] It sounds so simple, but that's really every day how we operate and especially operating as a collective, we work a lot with freelancers and contractors, and we pay on time, we pay early. Sometimes we pay before the client pays us. I've been in situations where small agencies are on a 90 to 120 day, it's like you get killed. So especially in the middle of COVID, I think it's been super rewarding for us to be able to work with people, find them paying jobs, get them work, give them the flexibility. And I think that's the new way we're going to see working. The nine to five in the office, 40 hours a week, that's dead. And the office needs to be a tool. If you want to collaborate for a couple of hours and then go back home or go to a we work or whatever. Cool. Just get your job done. And that's always how I've been as a manager in the last handful of years. I don't care what you work, when you work, how you get the work done, just get the work done. That's all it needs to be. [00:10:42][54.4]
Keith H: [00:10:43] Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think my last couple of years in the corporate world, I started to see that happening where somebody's checking who was in the office at 9:00, who was there late and it wasn't about the output. It became about the show and the office became the show rather than anything else. So I get how your heart was in it and you wanted to make this change, and you know, this was kind of this period for you to kind of go out there and do this. How did you convince others to join you in this? [00:11:09][26.2]
Keith S: [00:11:10] It's easier said than done. I will say the easiest thing was Elliot, my creative director and my partner. We worked together. I brought him in and my prior agency. We were let go the same day, literally 15 minutes apart. [00:11:21][11.1]
Keith H: [00:11:22] Other. OK, so this was created in the elevator as you're going down there? [00:11:25][3.3]
Keith S: [00:11:26] Yeah. I mean, at that point, we were all at home. And sadly enough, these conversations are happening over a video call. But just talking about, OK, what are you going to do? I mean, we're in the middle of COVID, we're going to go to another agency. Everyone else is having the same struggles. We're one of hundreds, let's just say, of people looking for that job. I think now's the time, OK? What does that look like? So we got together and brainstormed on what this could be, and it felt right. And we're like, Let's go. And in my mind, and I think people around me, I'm one of those people. If, like, if I don't do it, I'm going to have this thought of like I could have or I should over what would that look like. So we gave ourselves a run rate and we figured out how long we could go and what was the plan and just went. And then from there, sadly, a lot of people had the same fate. They were either deciding, I'm going to go off on my own or, Hey, man, I got furloughed. And so we operated from day one with the intent of we're a collective, will have a small team, will not have an office right now, and we'll pull people in as we need based on the client need or the demand or bandwidth, or somebody wants a specific creative approach that maybe it's not Elliot's wheelhouse cool. We'll bring those people in. So I started to put feelers out and talk to people I've met along the way, and that's been my biggest lesson that I'll just cut straight to the chase on. I did a terrible job at like making connections and keeping connections. And then when you really needed it now, like starting my own business, it was like, Oh, like, I haven't talked to this person in a while. So if I had to go back and do it over again, that's the only thing I would change is like being better at building that network of people staying connected to them. And I use I never use LinkedIn until I was ready to look for a new job. I'm on LinkedIn every day now, so there's things that change. You have to change. But I don't think it took too much convincing, and I think it's probably the environment we're in with COVID. People like, all right, you know, like, I have less hours now or I'm thinking about doing my own thing. You guys have work for me right now. Let's try this, and that's how it started. [00:13:26][120.3]
Keith H: [00:13:27] Yeah, I recognize that, too. When I left BuzzFeed and Bleacher Report. The people who are really quick to reply back when I was at those places, it was harder to get them to respond with the new email that they'd never heard of before and saying, Wait, who is this guy so I can feel you there? So you have kept the business bootstrapped or have you raised money since? [00:13:45][18.2]
Keith S: [00:13:45] No, we haven't had a need. And that was also intentional, which I think comes from working at four of the five holding companies like You take money, you owe things to people. Your priorities sometimes change. I won't say always. Sometimes they do. So no, we haven't raised anything, and we've kept our overhead very low back to the don't need an office. And, you know, we figured out how to make it work. And the last year has been super rewarding and humbling, and I think we went into it expecting in sports to tread water like, OK, let's just make it six months, nine months a year if it needs to, and then sports will come back in some way and things will open. And we've seen that, but go back to Rock the Vote, Biden like these are things we didn't have on our plan. And if that's treading water, I'm really excited about the next six months to a year. [00:14:32][46.2]
Keith H: [00:14:32] Yeah, that's amazing. You talked a little bit about this because the agency world is notorious for these 90 day, 120 day cycles to get paid on your invoices. And I think it would be really helpful for others who are starting to bootstrap and think about it. And you know, so many people are interested in the branding world in the agency world. What kind of monetary preparation did you have there, how have you been able to kind of make sure the cash flow is coming in to pay the people that do your work and to pay yourselves while you're waiting for these big guys to come back and pay you the invoice that they owe you? [00:15:02][30.2]
Keith S: [00:15:03] Yeah, it's a bit of a dance. But like I said earlier, this job's really been the manifestation of everything. I started my current account managemen for lack of other knowledge of, like other things exist. I was just at a small agency and then didn't have all the things I went to. Carmichael Lynch, as you mentioned IPG Agency, they had way more people and way more departments, and I was like, Wait a second, there's this thing called strategy. Kind of like that because it was all the elements of what I liked about account management and none of the things I hated about account management. But I didn't go to school for this. I didn't go to ad school like I just kind of found my way and met the right people and learned and spent a lot of time researching. But I wanted to be in strategy. I started with brand planning and working with a planner, and then this thing called digital comes out and I buy the first iPad and I'm like, This is going to be, you know, an investment in my future. And that was back when you could walk into a meeting with an iPad and people were like, Damn, you got the iPad. [00:15:55][52.1]
Keith H: [00:15:55] Like, Let me see that. [00:15:56][0.9]
Keith S: [00:15:57] And you were like, the digital guy like that. Was it, man, you didn't need to know and you have an iPad. You're the digital guy. Great. And it was like the Wild West. And then from there with social. And so you get in at the ground floor, the crest of the wave, if you will, of both of those and then agencies start calling and they're like, We want to build out teams that do what you do, like digital stuff, social stuff. So the last eight years of my career has been focused in building and growing teams. So I, back to not knowing this stuff, you find your way. So the last handful of years was building a team from three to 20, growing revenue and figuring out the people we needed. And so that's become very beneficial to like the work that I do now. I focus. I mean, we all do pretty much everything, but I focus more on the operations side and figuring out what we need, who we need to talk to, what we need to do first. But it's really pulling from the last handful of years, thankfully. [00:16:50][52.5]
Keith H: [00:16:51] That's awesome. When the iPad and the iPhone were coming out, we were in this period where I think the cycle of technology was every 12 to 18 months, and it feels like especially now where we're all sitting in front of our computers. It's just it's frenetic and it's the life cycle is so much shorter, right? Like a couple of months ago, it's clubhouse. And now we're talkingNFT's. And now, you know, everybody is in the blockchain and everybody's buying their apes and their cats. How do you stay on top of that and how do you kind of decipher between what's the future and what's just a fad? [00:17:22][31.1]
Keith S: [00:17:23] It's hard, I think Tik-Tok was like maybe it was even before that with Snapchat, there was one of the two was the moment where I was like, OK, this is not something that I'm going to create on, but I have to understand what's going on, I think. But that was the point. And then it also got to the point where I realize like, you're not that guy anymore and you have to be OK with that and say, we're going to hire people that are smarter about this, who focus on this. And that was me years ago. That's not me anymore. And let me find Keith from five years ago, and that's the people we want to hire at the agency. The other thing, and I think what I'll say coming from Heartlent Group is we're just not going to be everything to everybody. So there are some things that are not in our sandbox. And like I say, we don't need to care about them, but we're certainly not going to invest the time and resources we would on other things. So you just have to figure out what is it for you? What's the next thing that's in your vertical or space or adjacent to and then spend your time there. But if we're not going to focus on something, it may or may not make sense for us and a lot of strategy and planning for that matter is editing, you know, when new things come out and clients say, we need to be on this platform, it's like, No, you don't. Why is your audience there? What are you going to do there? And the last handful of years, you know, maybe brands shouldn't be on Tik Tok, but we can get your brand on Tik Tok through influencers or talent or some other branded content. But you yourself client don't need to have a profile. So there's a lot of things you can do. But I think I've sort of hit that point of like. It's not going to come down to me and me alone anymore. We got to pull in the people that know and I'm OK with that, and I honestly think clients respect that, especially the way we operate. If what you want is in this space, if we don't know enough about it, we're going to pull in the right person who does for sure. [00:19:11][108.1]
Keith H: [00:19:11] And you have experimented with them. NFTs, right? You've partnered with people before. What are your early insights on that? [00:19:16][5.0]
Keith S: [00:19:17] Well, so this is literally coming to me within the last year. I mean, I'm on a recorded podcast that we do having guests come on saying, Tell me about this space like I know nothing. I don't get it. I don't have a wallet. What am I missing? And a few people brought it to me in a way that made sense. One, in particular spoke to me about it and likened it to social saying. This is like when people had physical mail and email came out and they were like, Why, I write letters? This is what this stuff is. And that was when it clicked like, OK, if this really is, the next wave likened it to social. I need to get into this. So I just started learning and we brought the people in back to the prior question of like, who do we need to talk to? And we learned and we got smart, and then we were able to sell in some projects and talk to some clients and win some stuff. And Renee Montgomery's been a fantastic client from the beginning. We started with what was to be a logo that evolved to a podcast that went thirty five episodes, and she's now with Dan Le Batard and Meadowlark Media. So to grow that with her and still be able to say, OK, you want to get into NFT space, let's sort out what that looks like. And I applaud her for wanting to be one of the first wanting to put herself out there and take us along with her and trust us the way that she's done. But I think what I've learned is blockchain's the really the lesson here. You know, crypto and all these kitties and things are getting people to understand that blockchain is really the thing. Yeah. And if we have a a way of paying in a way of validating ownership and a way of thinking about how our business can change, I'll take something outside of our business. Let's look at music. If I could sell an album, every person I could have one or multiple owners of a track are verified owners. Maybe they get all the royalties. When that song is played, you can think about where this could go, and it's really interesting. And that's what I've enjoyed about it, because I do think it's back to what I was told a couple of months ago. This is the next wave, and you're either going to get hit with it pretty hard, but it's not going away. And we were just talking a couple of years ago about social not being a thing like that. Things are going to go away. It's like, Are you kidding me? I think we're going to have the same conversations about crypto and NFTs and blockchain. [00:21:39][142.0]
Keith H: [00:21:40] I love that you brought up Renee Montgomery because she's somebody who I appreciated as an athlete, appreciated her game, right? But since retiring has become this amazing personality, right? Like with the podcast that she had with you all with her TV announcing, how do you identify talent like that and how do you work with talent like that and kind of experiment and tinker? Because I think there's just this new wave of creators like herself. They're just seemingly coming out of nowhere, but it's obvious and evident they've been working on it beforehand. [00:22:06][26.4]
Keith S: [00:22:07] Yeah, and she's one of the few that have been working on it beforehand. You know the really smart ones understand that they have a platform and they should grow it. And you know, we worked with Brandon Chubb for a while. He's now at the NFLPA, so we felt like that was a really strong opportunity with him. And so he's now focused on that. But he said, you know, here's a guy that spent a couple of years with a couple of multiple teams in the league and got injured. And you know, your dream of playing in the NFL is not guaranteed. And even if it happens, your stay is not guaranteed. Leverage what you have at your disposal, whether that's him at Wake Forest or the NFL's shield. Because back to you and I, you leave Bleacher, you don't have Bleacher to lean on anymore. People don't get back to you. Same kind of thing is like leverage what you have when you have it because you don't know, you know, if someone's going to return your phone call. And as an athlete, it's easier to, you know, someone's always going to take a meeting, always going to take that lunch with you when you are an athlete. So you have to build the stuff that you own. I didn't say it, but I'm a big proponent of you don't build on rented land. So like I said years ago. I'm not the digital strategist. Facebook is the digital strategist. Like, they tell me what we're doing because it could change tomorrow. We have to react to it. That's just the nature of it. But if I have a blog, if I have a podcast, if I have content that I can create and own, and then if Instagram goes away tomorrow, I still have these assets at my disposal or email list. You know, we've seen that go through the roof in the last couple of months to a year. These are things that you own and you can market to people. Most of the time, one to one, which is smart. So athletes, I think, are getting smarter to that we've seen the whole thing with NIL, which is a completely different topic name, image, likeness that we can probably talk about, but they're understanding the value of owning their platforms. And Renee is one of the few that get it the way she does. But to answer your question, I think it's just like talking to anybody, really. I mean, we want to make sure that we're aligned on things. We're seeing things the right way. We feel like we can mutually help each other. And this could be not a transactional thing, you know, if it's a one-project thing, OK? But it would be great if this could be a long term relationship like Renee has become. I mean, we were thrilled to get that call. I don't think many people would be like, Hey, our work is done, but you're now with Dan Ledbetter. This is fantastic. Yeah. Like, yeah, how else could we have answered that in the fact that we have that relationship and we can go back and we can do projects, or I could bring her into a meeting on something like those are the kind of people you want to work with, spend time to work with, and sometimes it takes a project or two to realize if they are who you thought they were. But those are the people you hold on to and don't let go. [00:24:47][159.9]
Keith H: [00:24:48] I love that. Are there other people like that that we should be aware of in the next six to 12 months that you're looking at and going, Wow, I'm impressed with what they're up to right now. [00:24:56][7.9]
Keith S: [00:24:57] There's a few a lot of them are in women's sports, and I'm glad that they're getting their due. It's been long overdue, but I'm seeing them really use their platform without fear. And unfortunately, many times there are repercussions for it. But you know, they're very brave and they're bold and they're doing what they know is right. I mean, look at Renee. She opts out of the WNBA. Yeah, to focus on the things that matter for her. Like, that's really what it's about. But I won't give you any more than that because I recently was at that AdAge small agency conference, I heard Keith Cartwright, another Keith, Keith Cartwright, speak of Cartwright. And he mentioned, you know, you got to look at what your superpower is, what's unique, what makes you guys you, and on a meeting where everyone who's attending is basically his competitor. So you got to figure out what that is. And then somebody was bold enough to in the chat say, What's your superpower? I'm not going to tell you. So similarly, we've got some relationships and some strategic partnerships, and I'm really excited about so, Keith, I'm not going to tell you. [00:25:59][62.4]
Keith H: [00:25:59] All right, that's fair. We'll wait for them to come out and we'll celebrate them and retweet them when they happen. So before I joined Bleacher, I had many people tell me, Don't go to, if you love sports, don't go to the sports side because it's going to ruin sports for you. And I heard that in music as well. I heard that in other fields. Do you think that that's true? Were you a sports fan before or has it changed how you view sports? [00:26:21][21.8]
Keith S: [00:26:22] It has not changed my relationship, but I've never worked on the team side league side. I can see why there's been a mass exodus lately of people leaving the sports team side because gone are the days I hope of we are the enter insert team name here and people kill to work for us. That's literally what's happening like. Short of being for real. They're not getting paid enough. Their hours are crazy. They're on every game. They're working nights. They're working weekends. And at some point you have to take a step back and go, Is this all worth it? And we're seeing them leave to go to agencies and marketing, and they're getting paid more and they're being respected more. And I'm all for that. So for me, I mean, I grew up, I thought I wanted to be a sports agent. Jerry Maguire was like the movie for me. And then I realized when I got older, you need to go to law school for that. That's not going to happen. So I've enjoyed this ride focused on sports because I get to sort of play out some of those early boyhood dreams of like working in sports. I've just done it in a way that I think has worked for me. I couldn't have imagined, you know, starting in marketing and in a marketing agency and then ad agencies with lead me to this. But even as somebody a few years ago, like I understood sports marketing on the surface, but had no idea the kind of deals that were done and work that was done and those things that you saw that was done by a sports marketing agency. So I've enjoyed it and it's certainly been one of the focuses we've had is staying in sports. And no, we're not jaded at all. In fact, we're doubling down on it. [00:28:00][98.2]
Keith H: [00:28:00] That's great. What were some of the teams that you grew up loving? [00:28:02][1.8]
Keith S: [00:28:03] I grew up as a New York fan. I was born in upstate New York. Rhinebeck Poughkeepsie area for any of those who are run to this so you are familiar [00:28:09][5.6]
Keith H: [00:28:09] I'm in Woodstock, so right over the bridge [00:28:10][1.1]
Keith S: [00:28:10] yes, that's it. So I became a Mets fan because my dad was a Yankees fan and I just wanted to go against him. Not that we have a bad relationship. It was just like, All right, man, I'm going to do something different. [00:28:21][11.0]
Keith H: [00:28:22] Yeah, I'm sure he'll love that. [00:28:23][1.1]
Keith S: [00:28:23] Yeah, I'm sure he did, too. And I think about that now with my son, who's almost two how that's going to play out. So I have it coming to me, I'm sure, but I fell in love with the Knicks. Like early 90s Ewing Starks, that team was just nasty and that play of basketball, I don't think has really returned. Now I've got a bad rap with Ron Artest and you know, all those guys, but tough [00:28:45][21.7]
Keith H: [00:28:45] town, tough team. I remember I had a hat that said that on it. [00:28:48][2.4]
Keith S: [00:28:48] There it is. Yeah. And the Pistons. Yeah, it's like those. Those were the years. But I loved watching basketball on NBC with Ahmad Rashad and like, that's where really I got hooked. And then a Giants fan, my dad and I can at least get together on that one. That's been fun. When I was around in a physical location to watch a game with him, you know, Giants games were great, especially the last handful of years where they won the Super Bowl. I was fortunate to be home and watch those games with him, so that was pretty cool. [00:29:17][28.2]
Keith H: [00:29:17] Very cool. So we're pretty darn similar there. I disown the Knicks. I get made fun of a lot for that, mostly because I was living a few blocks away from Barclays Center and it was a lot easier access to go to nets games than they were at the time. This underdog fun team, and now they're this super team. I'm still rooting for him. It's just a little less fun to root for the super power, but you're also no dummy for taking the giants over the jets there. How are you feeling about the Mets over the last few years sticking with them? [00:29:43][25.1]
Keith S: [00:29:43] Yeah, I'm trying. I love going. I really did think, you know what? He's going to change it. I feel the same way about the Knicks as I did the Mets. The ownership is really holding these teams back and prohibiting them from doing what they really can. I love it. Steve's a big spender. We went out and got those guys, so I feel good about it. I feel good knowing we have an owner who wants to be competitive and we'll do whatever it takes. At least that's the read. I get on them and I don't know what's going on this season. I guess we can chalk it up to injuries and the fact that we don't have the guys pitching that we want. But yeah, I feel good about the future where a young team, they seem to like playing with each other. I mean, those are the things you want to see and we see it. [00:30:19][36.1]
Keith H: [00:30:20] Yeah, I hope all this controversy this past week is going to lead to a little bit of a run. And well, you know, we're going to date ourselves with this and we'll find out when I hit publish on this. Did they win ten in a row against the Marlins or the Nationals or did they fall into obscurity here? But has your fandom changed since working with athletes? Maybe newfound respect, maybe better understanding of what they go through off the field to the wins and losses still hit the same way that they used to? [00:30:42][21.8]
Keith S: [00:30:42] Yeah, I guess the fandoms changed as most fandoms. I think people are just not fans of teams are fans of athletes, and I guess I would fall into the same camp. And I'm not a Mets fan where I'm like, I could tell you exactly who was in the lineup last night and why we should have made different lineup decisions like I like watching them play, and maybe it's just the lack of time or just the way sports has become in our lives. We don't have time to watch the whole games anymore. We're watching highlights or whatever we can catch. So if the Mets were struggling and when I turned on the TV and I could spend 10 15 minutes and it was just boring, I'd be done. But the fact that I could watch it and it's entertaining, I'm still a fan. So I guess my fandom changed because I look out for those athletes. I want to see them win. On typically teams that I normally wouldn't root for, and I want to make sure that I'm following their career vs. the team like it used to be. [00:31:36][54.1]
Keith H: [00:31:37] Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about this transition? I see it in younger kids. It's so evident with them where they have a Kyrie jersey, but they're not Mets fans or they will follow LeBron to different teams. What caused that change, and I think our parents might just be like, I'm a Giants fan, no matter how good or bad they are. Cleveland Browns forever. What caused that change and what do you think that's doing to the game? [00:31:59][22.3]
Keith S: [00:32:00] Yeah, I think it's a combination of a few things. I think the contracts and the ability for these guys to kind of jump around, create these super teams. I mean, we never saw this years ago the fact that two three four guys could get together in the NBA and make a run at the Championship because of how they structure the contracts and because of how much money there is available now. I think that's changed. I think video games have certainly been a part of it of like I can create a custom team and like I haven't gamed in years. But I'm telling you, every year when they release, Madden is like the one game that I'm thinking, OK, could I get a console? It's the only game that makes me like, want to play again because I enjoyed it. Like, I picked the giants. I never ran with the team that we had. You do the custom league and draft guys are trade guys. Like, maybe that was the sports agent in me, but I really think people enjoy these custom teams of like, let me put Peyton Manning on the giants and like, see how that works. So I think that's part of it, and it's the fact that we're not watching for games. So unfortunately, I don't know if people get. To really understand these athletes the way that we used to wear, you'd watch a full game, you'd see their up and down within a game and you'd watch as many games as you could and go, Wow, they're really progressing this season or they're not. And we're watching highlights, we're watching clips, we're watching that dunk. And I think people are becoming fans of players that are highlights like, who's the best player to watch or who do I enjoy seeing on my Twitter feed? And that's not a bad thing. It's just the way sports has been. [00:33:34][93.6]
Keith H: [00:33:34] Yeah, it's a different thing. It's a different way to engage a sport and kind of mix the wins and losses. I would say it's kind of secondary to some of the highlights in the conversations that happen after it. Who are some of those athletes that you're looking at that are doing a good job on the branding side that maybe you haven't worked with that you just go, you know, I like what they're doing. One for me, Spencer Dinwiddie. I just enjoy how he's experimenting with crypto and blockchain and trying different things outside of the court. Any others that you look at and do the experiments, you can find ways. [00:34:00][25.9]
Keith S: [00:34:01] Yeah, I love that. And it was not too long ago that we were talking about guys like Marshawn Lynch, Gronk that weren't spending their game checks or salaries. Yeah, living off endorsements. And we're like, Man, that's amazing. And that feels like ages ago. But it was not that long ago. And now we're talking about guys like Spencer taking, you know, the crypto jump and starting startups or guys taking part, if not all of their salary in bitcoin. But the guy that we use a lot of times is Patrick Mahomes. So if you go to his site, it's back to don't build on rented land. He has a great site. He has merch and it's timely when things happen. He's releasing it on his site. There's videos, there's all this stuff, a young kid. And now he's invested in the Kansas City sports teams. The Royals, his fiancee or wife, whenever this gets released, are part owners in the soccer club out there. So I think people that build the future for themselves and the next generation, a generation that's really who I look at, and I'm happy because we're not hearing these stories of, you know, guys flaming out of the NBA and then they're broke. Or, you know, you're hearing these stories of like so-and-so had a garage sale and I found so-and-so Super Bowl ring there and he's like, Man, what happened? So I think that financial literacy was not there as much as it could have been. It is now they're going back to Brandon Chubb. You know, you log on to the NFLPA site, you can't miss these financial literacy courses unless you want to. So I think the leagues have done a tremendous job of that and they're really providing opportunities and trying to help these men and women grow their their fortune beyond the game. [00:35:40][99.7]
Keith H: [00:35:41] It's such a great point. The savviness is there not only from, you know, when they enter the league with those financial literacy things, but it just feels like because I grew up with YouTube clips and Facebook and Instagram, they just know more about the world outside of the game, and that gets them better equipped for the business part of the game as well. [00:35:58][17.0]
Keith S: [00:35:59] Totally. And I think the guys that are while they're playing are doing real estate deals or they're in the restaurant industry or, you know, whatever start ups, you know, I think the sad stuff comes from like, we're just going to pull in whoever we want or people that were friends of ours and the due diligence of like, who's the right person to be in that role? And how do we make sure this thing doesn't go bankrupt in six months? But I don't see that as much as I used to, and so I think it's a great thing. And, you know, for people like Rich Paul and LeBron, you know, people that come up with these players either are or get the skills to be really great managers, business managers, you know, it's it's been great to see that kind of stuff. [00:36:41][42.4]
Keith H: [00:36:42] Yeah, it really is. It's creating a whole new ecosystem where they're able to experiment. So you've been in the marketing world now for 15 years, it's fair to say 20. [00:36:51][8.7]
Keith S: [00:36:51] That's that's fair. Don't say 20 out of [00:36:53][1.5]
Keith H: [00:36:53] the 15, 15 is good. Yeah, 15 plus, right? And you know, as long as I've been in, I've been in it 15 as well. There's so many people that say we make ads suck less and you know, we're trying to change the game. A - are ads sucking? is that still a problem? Have ads gotten better or is that just a sales talking point that our industry will continue to put out there? [00:37:12][19.1]
Keith S: [00:37:13] No, I think there's some truth there. I ignore stuff, we all do. I have a five-year-old daughter. We watch a lot of Disney Plus if for whatever reason, I'm watching something with limited commercials or something that's live. Commercials are foreign to these kids these days. What is this? What is this? So now that she's old enough, I think she starts to understand it. But no there's some truth there. I do think and I'll use Geico, so I call myself, I say hometown in Virginia. I go back and I say I was born in Rhinebeck, in Poughkeepsie, but we moved to Virginia. My parents, my sister in Virginia, for many years. I thought the goal was, I want to work at Martin Agency in Richmond. And I followed a lot of their work. Take Geico. Here's a brand that has been with Martin Agency for years. The caveman campaign didn't do anything for me, but I'm probably not the target. But look at the work that they put out, the stuff that is memorable instantly recognizable, is funny, people are sharing it. At the end of the day, this is an insurance company, right? and back to my five-year-old. She now knows within a split second of a Geico commercial, it's a Geico commercial. Yeah, she'll say, Hey Daddy, at the end they say Geico, it's like, you don't that that's the kind of stuff that just transcends. And they're one of the few that I think have just done a fantastic job. But, you know, outside of the normal one, Nike, of course, but outside of that stuff. And I think in our industry, advertising is no longer print and television and magazine. And there's now things like branded content and there's Netflix series, and there's all these things that I would put into the ad bucket that really aren't. So there's a ton more opportunities to make things suck less, as you put it. [00:38:50][97.0]
Keith H: [00:38:51] Well, yeah, I was on the publishing side and that was always the pitch for the branded content world. And as I got to know, more people in the creative agency side, I just felt like we were creating more of a wedge than collaborative thing. What were your opinions of that? Would you agree with that? [00:39:04][13.0]
Keith S: [00:39:05] Yeah, it depends on the publisher or but yeah, I mean, I think even when I guess it was BuzzFeed, I'm trying to think, was there another one that came out with like branded content there, like in or native content, it's going to look like everything we put out. We're like, Wow, this is great. But then in the back of your mind, you're like, We're just tricking people. Yeah. I mean, there's so many of those I don't even call them epiphanies, but so many of these things where you just stop and you're like, What are we doing? You know, and if this is really what it takes to be like, you read an article and now you're going to see an ad that looks like that last article. So maybe you'll be more inclined to look at it like we're not doing our job. If you're going to spend any time with advertising or marketing, and make it suck less, as you put it, or do something that people want to talk about. I shouldn't force you to engage with my brand or my thing. I should do something that you want to spend time with. Not make you spend time with. [00:39:57][52.8]
Keith H: [00:39:58] Absolutely. So what are some of the other companies out there doing that? It's evident you're a student of the game, and it sounds like you've been following the ad world for a long time. Who are you looking at and growing? They're doing great work. I appreciate what they're doing for the advertising community by putting that out there. [00:40:12][13.7]
Keith S: [00:40:12] Wow, it's so few. I love it. I like the branded content stuff. I think we haven't seen the pinnacle of video and there's all this talk of everyone's pivoting to video, but like, not just here's your campaign in video form, and let's throw it up on Twitter, but like, what can we do? That's interesting. And socially, even we haven't even seen. There's very few brands that engage the way they should on social, and it's not just disseminating information, but like, frankly, caring and building a community. And I think a lot of the DTC brands right now are doing a great job. Years ago, away luggage, a lot of the drinks and food, now even the democratization of like financial apps, say whatever you will about Robinhood. That's an example of like, here's something that somebody didn't know and now can and can invest. And it's fun, which may not be a good thing. But there's so many of these examples of like at the end of the day, I'm advertising to get more users or get more people to spend time on my app. I love what Twitter has done. I've said from the beginning, I would pay for this thing. I'm not paying for Hulu because I don't think they're offering enough to pay for it. Agree. But I love what they're doing, and I love, more importantly, what they did with fleets of like, Listen, this isn't working. Like, We're killing this thing. Great. Because I think so many people would just double down on it or just let it go too long. And I don't know if they're necessarily building in public, but I love what they're doing. It makes a ton of sense to keep you glued to that thing and so many of the ways that you can be, and it is bar none, the platform of choice for me. [00:41:53][100.6]
Keith H: [00:41:54] Same. And I think the way that they've opened up their product roadmap and yeah, they built publicly in some sense has been fun because then you can jump in and experiment and play around with this thing. And there just feels to be that there's a little bit more comfortable in their skin now, a little bit more awareness of where they fit in the social ecosystem, that they can put things out there and fail in front of us and not have to worry about it. It's funny you mentioned the Robin Hood. The one that came to my mind was Peloton and the ads that got messed. Basically, just everyone said that they were horrible pre-pandemic, and yet they've had skyrocketed sales since. And I think they're that case study of, OK, this commercial didn't land, but it got the talking going, Do you believe in that? No press is bad press. Or do you think that there are still ways that you can destroy your brand by putting stuff out? I used to joke when I was at BuzzFeed that, you know, brands could ruin hundred and fifty years worth of brand equity by. The wrong tweet like don't don't just put anything out there, but Peloton's kind of taught me like put out a pretty bad ad and still get great sales. [00:42:54][59.7]
Keith S: [00:42:54] Yeah, I think it's both. I won't agree or disagree with either point because I think depending on the situation, it can be both. I'm with you on. You got to be careful about what you're putting out there. The Peloton example. So that woman that was in the ad, Ryan Reynolds, puts her in aviation gin. Yeah, that was. So I go back to your prior question and say what Ryan Reynolds is doing, not just with aviation gin, but he bought Mint Mobile. If he doesn't own the whole thing, he owns like a considerable amount [00:43:20][25.6]
Keith H: [00:43:21] in the baby boom. Yeah. Did you see that button, right? [00:43:23][1.8]
Keith S: [00:43:23] Yeah, the stuff he's doing of getting users and getting longtime users. I think they're doing a fantastic job, so I know I answered the previous question. But back to this one, yeah, I do think so. I think that's why you have to be careful about what you're putting out there. But I think we as an industry have spent a ton of time on the negative side. And in my world with the athletes, and the college athletes, it was all these symposiums about how bad social media is and to your point about how you could wreck your career. What do you teach in these guys about the power of it? Is Twitter coming in there and saying this is how you can build a brand? I mean, I'll go so far as saying I exist because of Twitter. I was laid off. I got on Twitter at the time when it was like, Here's what I'm having for lunch. I'm like, How is this thing going to help me? Right? But by building contacts and people I still follow and talk to today, 10 years later, it's because of Twitter. There's no other platform. I mean, maybe LinkedIn because of the way it's set up that you have these contacts and people you work with and you can still get in front of them. And they're probably not the same person that is on Twitter. OK? But Twitter far and away has made my career. So is anybody explaining it that way to athletes or anybody for that matter of like if you put in the time, here's what you can see. And this is not a rare occurrence. You know, like you're nodding your head, agreeing there's so many other people that can say the same thing. So I think we just spent a lot of time on the negatives of it. And even with influencer when it started as like the wild west of like, cool, careful what you put out there and make sure you're noting it's an ad and the FCC could come after you. It's like, OK, is anybody getting scared of like participating or like, What are we doing here? [00:45:05][101.3]
Keith H: [00:45:05] Yeah, that's such a solid point there. What are some of the misconceptions that people have when they start building this brand? Because you're working with people who are either new to platforms or want to learn these platforms? What are some of the misconceptions they have about putting together tweets or Instagram? [00:45:21][15.7]
Keith S: [00:45:22] It's and look, I think we all get to the same point of like we have something great to share and we put it out across all six channels. Yeah, it happens. Ideally, you would treat each six of those channels differently. Maybe one channel gets a video, maybe another channel gets a quote from that video. That's an audio form, or it's a graphic form with a text quote on it. But you know, we don't want to call it lazy. It's just there's so much stuff to put out. Sometimes people just throw it up there. I hope and pray. Gone are the days of like, OK, we have a 30 second ad. It ran on TV. It's now on our Twitter feed. It's our YouTube feed. We put it up on Instagram. Like, that's got to stop. So I think the misconceptions are that you need to be everywhere still to this day. And I remember when I was in New York, which is now six-plus years ago, riding the subway and some, I think, was Lion King. Whatever Broadway show was out, here's the ad in the subway, and here's literally all 12 social icons of where they're at. Why the fuck is Lion King need to be on Pinterest [00:46:29][66.7]
Keith H: [00:46:30] or Yik Yak or? Right? [00:46:31][1.4]
Keith S: [00:46:33] And it started that way, and it still really hasn't found its way of like, I need to be everywhere. And maybe you do. And if and even if you do, back to my earlier point, maybe you don't exist as a brand, but your brand exists there through other ways. So I still, unfortunately, think that's true. I think I shared something earlier today about, you know, here's how we should talk about marketing. And I'm like, OK, a couple of these I'll give you maybe five or like dead on cool, the rest of these. Why are we still talking about it this way? I mean, we've been talking about it this way for years. What is going on? [00:47:02][29.3]
Keith H: [00:47:03] Yeah, that's such a great insight in terms of going after the social platforms that matter most to you and that you have strengthened, right? We get told that all the time play to your strengths rather than expose your weaknesses. So in terms of marketing, what were you believing in 2018 that you don't believe now? [00:47:17][14.3]
Keith S: [00:47:18] Well, that was only a handful of years ago, but that was pre-COVID, I would say. The emphasis and reliance we had on in person, and I don't just mean meetings like in the last year, I've attended a number of conferences virtually because of COVID. Some of them have been great, some of them not so great. But you can really see promise. And as somebody that attended sits a handful of times south by southwest a handful of times. It's such a time suck. Like, I got to get there. I got to go to and from the hotel. I'm going to figure out my agenda. I've got a happy hour with Keith. I'm going to dinner with this person. It's a time suck. So to be able to be home or be wherever you are, attend these sessions. Communicate with the attendees. Admittedly, not as you were at a dinner or a drink, and you're texting them. Essentially, you could be video chatting. It's not the same. I get that. But your time management or your need to spend all this time has gone like you have all this free time to do other things and you can still do work and you can still do stuff with the kids. But I've attended this conference, so I'm hopeful that that too. We're not going to go back to the office 40 hours a week. We're not going to do the same things we did where all of this is in person that we will find somewhat like the social thing. Play to your strengths or know where you should be. What needs to be in person? What doesn't? What can be 50/50? What can be 100 percent virtual? And what's better for everybody? I'm really hopeful for that. [00:48:44][86.3]
Keith H: [00:48:45] Great answer. I love that and I think the world is moving that way. So a bit of a softball one, especially since I give you some time on this one, but on your website, in your bio, you profess to be a cheeseburger lover. What's the most underrated cheeseburger? [00:48:56][11.7]
Keith S: [00:48:57] Yeah, I mean, I would call it an addiction that I need to work on, and that's coming from the physician, not me. Yeah, I'm a time and place person. I'm a time and place person with burgers, so I'm in Connecticut. If I was eating in and out right now, I wouldn't like it if I'm in L.A. time and place. It's a great [00:49:15][17.9]
Keith H: [00:49:17] It's the vibes. It's the vibe, right? OK. Right. [00:49:18][1.4]
Keith S: [00:49:19] I spent a number of years in Minnesota. I was introduced to the Juicy Lucy, which, if you're not familiar, is hot molten cheese in the middle of the burger, not on top. It is in the middle. You have to, when it comes to you, give it a couple of beats before you sink your teeth into or you'll burn your mouth. OK, it's good- time and place, I wouldn't get one of those in Connecticut, but if I'm in Minnesota, probably in the winter watching hockey, which I'm not a fan of, but I tried to be in Minnesota. Yeah. Time and place. So I'm a big Shake Shack guy. I think they're consistent. I'm also a purist. I like the bun to be great. Brioche or in Shake Shack case potato. I like the burger to be sizable, but like not aggressively big for the sake of being big. Ketchup, cheese, lettuce. That's it. So like, if you got that order very simply at Shake Shack, if you did it at Five Guys, you'd get a solid burger and I can do all the other fixings. But like, I'm just a purist at the end of the day, so I love going into the city. J.G. Mellon with their very here, burger like, that's the kind of stuff I enjoy, so I'm not going out with the $400 gold leaf, wherever you know. Get out here with that. [00:50:26][67.5]
Keith H: [00:50:27] It's yeah. So it seems like you're pretty accessible on your cheeseburger. You want to spread this love out. You don't want to diss anybody here because you want to be able to go into any, any shop to get a burger. [00:50:36][9.0]
Keith S: [00:50:36] I mean, there's really outside of like that, you know, for the sake of being too much burger, there's very few I don't enjoy. So I'll give them all a try. And I'm curious, you know, I haven't traveled a lot lately, but when I did, it was always like, Hey, I'm in Detroit, I'm in blah blah blah. Where's the place to get the burger? And I love checking out the local spots that people like. [00:50:54][18.1]
Keith H: [00:50:55] I love that. Any final advice would you give to somebody right who's been working, trying to figure out, should I stay this corporate slog or should I give it a go on my own? You've now been at it for a little over a year. Any advice that you give them? [00:51:06][11.4]
Keith S: [00:51:07] I think the only advice and I can't say if you should do it or not. I just working what was in my head, and I'm sure I'm not alone. You develop these notions of what you think you need in order to make a leap. And let's just for rough numbers say I need a hundred grand before I'm comfortable doing this. No, I mean, the amount of people I spoke to after we launched to just update them on what we're up to, and they've been in business for a number of years. I kind of have an idea of what they make. I'm that close to them to have them say. I'll just tell you, like, we started with a $10000 project. Yeah, just, you know, we had a $7000 thing. I was listening to Gary Vee on something. And look, I don't like that guy for a lot of reasons, but I think it was on how I built this. And he was talking about leaving his dad's wine company and starting VaynerMedia with his brother, A.J., and he was talking about how we had all these ideas like we could do sports cards we could do like a sports version of eBay and like these things probably would have worked. But Gillette gave him a thirty grand, which at the time they thought was a zillion dollars. I think, as he put it. Yeah, and they launched VaynerMedia. So like, you don't need these things. And as as it was with us, with Hooper's vote, that led to all these things like seven, 10 grand, 20 grand, if you can get it Thirty, if you're in Gary's land and you get a zillion congratulations. But these things can materialize and snowball, and you just have to give it time, so it could be work on it on the side, provided you're able to. But when you feel like your heart's in it, it's not necessarily a financial thing anymore. Like I thought it was. I need to hit this goal before I can do this. You give it your all and you really believe in something. This stuff will work. And I've seen it. I've heard about it. I'm experiencing it myself. That's all I can tell you. You've got to figure out what's right for you, but lose the idea that you need x number of dollars before you can take that leap because you don't [00:53:08][120.9]
Keith H: [00:53:08] solid advice there. How can people learn more about Heartlent Group and how can they get in contact with you? [00:53:14][5.7]
Keith S: [00:53:15] I'm on Twitter at Keith S.. [00:53:16][1.6]
Keith H: [00:53:17] Yeah, you got in early there. Good job on that. [00:53:18][1.4]
Keith S: [00:53:19] I didn't have a wonderful Twitter rep and I I was hungry on Keith S as soon as they went year and a day inactive. I'm like, Hello. I'm here. Quick side note on Twitter. The handle cheeseburger is run by a guy and it's pretty much defunct. And he blocked me. I tried to buy it. I understand you're not supposed to. I was like, This is perfect. This is going to be my handle. But like the fact that Twitter hasn't sold this to like Wendy's or anybody and said, Hey, guys, we have a defunct, inactive handle and cheeseburger and we want to give it to you. I'm blown away. It's been years ago that I've been like, Guys, that's not going to give it to me. You should, like, sell this or give this or whatever to somebody else. But I'm on Twitter. Keith S. And again, that's where you can find me and communicate with me. DMs are open, and that's where I spend most of my time. Heartlent Group is Heartlent.com. [00:54:06][46.8]
Keith H: [00:54:09] Awesome. Keith Stoeckler, Thank you so much. It's great talking with you. [00:54:12][2.8]
Keith S: [00:54:12] Thank you, Keith. [00:54:12][0.0]
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