What's happening in the canine industry for all the latest news, views and expert opinions stay right here for the canine 9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, of the industry, learning colleagues, movers and shaker and the odd randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glen Cook and Pat Stewart. And I'm lofty Fulton. And I'm out of here. Hey I need to tell
some. Oh, god. What is it? Some time ago, we did an add episode where we talked about how we were going to get better with our ass. Wondering shit said get better and we just so bullish shit. Alright. Well, here they are? We got 5 sponsors currently. Alright. Who are they? First is the O. The ai winner. Oh, that knob the buff. Yep. Now. He's the Og been with. He's star. He's good. He he's gonna sell you whatever you need. Yep. He'll get it. What you should do is contact Jason
for Minds Don't quit. Mh. With some peculiar product, telling him me want it and make him get it in. Salt you. Even if you could buy it somewhere else, just make sure he gets it in for you. Just make that bastard work. But in all, honesty, I'd say 90 percent of my shit comes from him, and it's all the best stuff. I did see some feedback on our forum where somebody was really intrigued about your handler package. So you got
from Jason. Obviously, it works. Yeah. People are paying attention in daily great even though we shoot at this, we do a terrible job of actually trying to keep things updated. It's great to see that the people who are investing in our show are actually getting some leeway. Yep. Made I've heard that your wife sells some Can products. My wife is doing
great guns at the moment. I said before that she's being supported terrific in the United States which been good, but I will swing that back home and say that so many more people in Australia are doing it. And it's great to see, like, there are people finally, in the sporting dog world who are starting to prioritize nutrition for the dogs. And I know them and I can see them when Noel comes and says, I guess who bought some product off me for the first
time. So you're saying there's no patient confidentiality. No. You're a confidentiality. Oh, sorry. It what's a mob list. You... Are you aware my dog is taking p, collagen, and what everything it takes Anton. Anton. Yeah. Yeah To been on that. Anton is not Business, but I've gotta do a shout for. They. Are absolutely fantastic. The very supportive of her
show. Mh. Whenever we've done seminars and so forth, they have been first to dip their hand in their pocket, they are very generous with their product. But let me just say all that aside, their generosity and their advertising and marketing. Let me just say on the other side of that they're is amazing. Yeah. Like, it does work. It's very beneficial for sure. It's 1 of those things where they say Anton for every dog every day. I totally agree with
that. Nor has even supported that when people have asked them about her product, she says, the 2 things that I would absolutely give to you. Is anton and her gut protect formula. Yeah. Gut protect is like her holy Grail. Of of her holy of the range. This is not me market talking. Okay? Because we mad. This is this is an ad, but this is not made to a market. But we've already pointed out where she did at. I know. Of all the things she sells and she sell some kill a product.
But the 1 thing that she does sell, which I absolutely agree with her every dog should have this product is the gut protect. Really, a hundred percent. It's nothing that they need for being sick. It's something that they need to do just to maintain great gut balance. Okay. And gut balances like mental health That's it's 1 of those things that you're absolutely they wanna get control around. So products like anton, Great every day. Gut protect, great
for every day. There's other products that aren't even related to hers called things like called Rose vital and stuff like that. Absolutely fantastic for dogs to be on every sort of day. Mh. But I know there's other people we need to talk about if you wanna learn more about Nor products, go to a website, canine dot com. I think it's. I think it's... Till you'll figure it out. It's dot you. It's 1 of those, you. Everyone just google's it and yeah goes Google it. You'll
find it. Hey. Yeah. George. Alright wish you get him on the show. We should have George on the show. Not only is he devilish handsome. Yep. But he's got a fantastic, 1 of a kind product that I've never seen replicated anywhere in the world, you or me. Were getting a car ride by him. We got to see the prototype first hand. And then his bike got stolen with the prototype bike that? Yes. Yeah. But anyway, George
has Rowdy had dog box. Yeah. So it's a crate that goes with the vacuum motorbike so that you don't can go over with you. Yeah. It's cool shit. It's a great idea. You should totally get 1. Taylor canine nines in Canada. Yeah. Do you know that Taylor from tele is hosting Jazz w later in the year? I do know that. I
saw the ad. Very good. Yep. So she doing great stuff with her tailored Canine, her training business, training business, but she's also getting a fantastic trainer over there to help with her tailored training. Cheers is. And finally. Barber groot. The sugar mama from the heart dog trainer heart dog trainer. Just fucking throws cash this supports the show god bless. Yeah. I think later on the year when And I are over doing a seminar with Melanie
Ben. Barbara D group is coming over. I. I think she has put down a a like, and I'd said you better come sugar mama, and she gave me a thumbs up, So hopefully, she's gonna be there, and I can give her some love to repay us for all the kindness and support that she's thrown Addison asked nothing in return. Alright. That's our ad. Yeah. That one's good to go for at least another 4 years. That hear from us then.
Welcome back to the canine paradigm your host, Pat stewart, and I'm joined in studio today by my c host. Glen cook. Hello, sir. Hello, everyone. How. Are you? I'm good. Like we're pretending we haven't just been talking for. No. We can see. We're all be camping day. Hey. I got a beam upon it. Let's go. I talk about leash. Yeah. It's a good topic. Yep. Something I've been thinking on. Mh. And sort of swirling around in my brain a lot lately.
Yes. Is about leash. Yeah. And there was a final tree just recently that just kind of prompted me to think out a structure of things I wanna talk with you about today in terms of leash. Oh, share it with me hear all about it. So I like coffee. And most days, I get coffee from the same place. There's an awesome little cafe just up the street from my shop. You know these people who can have a coffee and then not poo directly after? That's first coffee of the day.
Okay. But Yeah. Yeah. I'm at least A2A day ago. Yeah like, coffee. Really? Get 2. A minimum. If not 3. 0, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I maybe may have 2. Yeah. Yeah. If I have more than 2, then I can't sleep properly at night. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I have a cut of, like, 3 in the afternoon usually, although I break that rule from time to time. Yep. Anyway leash? Yeah. Currently. So anyway, this Cafe. Yes. I know them pretty well. I get a lot
of my meals there. Yep. But often when I'm walking to work in the morning, they're doing their setup. Mh right? Now in this cafe, there's a dog, and people who follow me on Instagram will have seen our post stories of him sometimes. His name's Pong, and he lives at the cafe. He's the owner's dog. He's a little... I don't know what he is. He looks like maybe a little cock span ish Oh, yeah Yeah. I've I've seen him money stories. He's a cute little dog. Yep. Actually incredible
trained. Yep. Like a straight dog. Sort of Yeah. So he's at the cafe. It's got a big outdoor area at in a courtyard sort of space. Yep. He is just off leash all the time wandering around. I've never seen that dog harass someone that didn't wanna be harassed. Yep. The cafes dog friendly. I've never seen him approach another dog that wasn't inviting the approach was gonna have an appropriate
interaction with. I've never seen the dog cause any issues whatsoever, he only engages with people who he's clearly welcome to engage with. Mh He never causes any issues with any of the other dogs, and he just wonders around does his own thing. You were eighties kid or a nineties kid, eighties. I was born in 83. When you and I were young children. That was pretty much normal life. Yeah, people with dogs, we grew up in an era where we weren't so constrained with over overwatch by councils,
state government, federal government. Nobody sort of... More people cared But dogs were very social and people were very rural minded with things. I grew up in the outer suburbs. I lived in the city as a very young child, but then I sort of moved to the out of suburbs as a pre teens and teens and so forth. But life with people then was dogs wanted, And dogs were very social with people. Yeah. Of all sizes, they're were even social with
each other. Like, it wasn't uncommon to see groups of dogs playing in the street with each other or just, you know, roaming the neighborhood, and then they'd go home to be fed. Yep. That was our life as children. Yep. But laws, laws and litigation. Exactly. So Po go hangs out in this cafe. The other thing I should add never seen him beg for food. Like, never once and there's food over it's Cafe. Yep. As will feed him or they encourage him
not No. Some people do. And if he's interested if he feels like it, he'll might take a piece of food. Yeah. But he doesn't... The dog is incredible. At just being the dog in a cafe. Alright? Now I've never seen it anywhere else I don't know what it's life looks like anywhere else, but I see it there, and it's great. Yep. But as I'm walking to work most days at about 05:30 in the morning. I'm walking past their shop as they're
setting up. Pong goes is out there doing his own thing, and my 2 dogs are on leash as I'm walking them down the straight. Now every now and again, I will take 1 of my dogs or both of them or whatever, to go get coffee. Mh. And they're on leash, and I might leave them outside as I walk into order and put them in a seat or a down or
something like that. But they don't move, they get put static, and I might leave them in this somewhat secluded area depending on whether I take them or not, which is pretty uncommon. So anyway, the other day, I tag them on Instagram when I posted a thing of Pong, and they then looked at my Instagram. I found out on the dog train Like, they don't really know what I do for a job other than that it's in the dog space. Right? And I'd like I
don't suppose like care. But they looked me up on Instagram and saw Oh, you're real dog trainer? You do real dog stuff. So the owner then said to me, how come your dogs are never off leash? And I was like, Oh, well, and Didn't really have an answer. But I just kind of was stuttering for words because what I realized was This is a much bigger conversation. Like, you don't actually give a fuck about my answer. Right? Then she
goes, look, Pong goes always around. Like, I just tell him what I want from him and he does it. And I'm like, yeah. Okay. And I ended up to say, well, my dogs are a work in progress. Alright? Like that's... I just left it at that. Yeah. Good answer. But then I went back, and I was reflecting, and I was like, well, my dogs always unleashed. Was her dog wears off leash. And I know the answer to that is because her dog is naturally good or she put a lot of work into when he was young.
Teaching him how to make the appropriate choices and how to be social in public and whatever. But he's also not exactly full of drive either. Yeah. It's exactly. Yeah. Just puts around. Nothing really kicks that dog. Nothing that I've seen. And certainly, maybe this was the case when he was younger. They're trained it out of him. I don't know. But nothing really excites him to the point where he needs to be restrained. He doesn't have any
really strong desires. Yep. I don't engage with them a lot every now and again, he comes over and talks to me. But the people that do try and push engagement with him and that he enjoys a company of. When he sees them, he casually walks over to them. Like, he doesn't go at them like a bullet gate, like, high drive dogs do. Yep. And so why are my dog's leash and hers not is because it's not appropriate for my dogs to be off leash and it's entirely appropriate for her dog to be off leash.
And then it started me sort of thinking about why that is shocking to someone else to see these guys a dog trainer. He clearly can train dogs. They've seen videos of me training dogs now. They know that I'm capable of training a dog to do most things that anybody would wanna train a dog to do. Why have I not trained them to be able to just walk around off leash? Because could easily do that with my dogs. If I wanted my dogs to be off leash everywhere dogs, and that were a priority to
me, I could easily do that. But that is not in the slightest a priority to me. But it caused me to reflect, and I was like, there was a time when that was a priority to me. Now it was before I was a a dog person. When I was a kid, we had border Collie growing up. We had 1 called panda because she looked like a panda bear. And she died when I was maybe 4 or 5 something like that. So that was my first dog and all my initial memories of a dog of that dog. What do you remember of her? I remember
a couple of things. The first was that she knew how to play cricket. Yep. She understood the game to the extent that me and my friends, all we needed was a batter and ebola, and she was the field. It worked perfectly because she understood you take the ball so straight back to the person who threw the ball to the guy who hits it with the bat. And. So it was the best when you're 4 or year kid and your buddies in the area, You can play cricket
all day. Yeah nobody has to be the field because you only wanna be the batter or the bowl. Yeah. That's that's shit jobs. Yeah. No 1 wants to be out there fielding. But the total loved it because it was getting... We play with the Tennis ball. I don't know that she understood the game in so much as that you had to catch the ball on the full to get people out, but being a border collie, she was always trying to catch the ball on the fall. So that counted as you're out.
Yep. And she would feel in that as quickly as possible should would run the ball back to the bowl. So she say she our border collie needs. And total guys get to play cricket. Totally. Awesome. The other thing I remember really distinctly about panda is that she was stolen when we're young. She decided for a period, and then we got her back. I feel like there was more to that. I should probably talk to my parents about the details of that. Now that I'm old enough to hear the real story.
I think that there was probably some interesting developments in house... No No. She came back. Okay. Because Panda got really fat and where my parents live? It was at the time of functioning mental hospital, but like, a big open flowing once. Now Cow Park, right? Where, like, I've trained my dogs all the time and so. When it was a functioning hospital because dogs would roam. Right? Like you said.
That dog would just disappear and come back and would spend the day out with other people and then just come back in the evening and be with her family who had got home from school and whatever Yep. And she's always fat, and we could never figure out why. And it turns out because she had, like, 6 different people feeding. Know. And we found that out when she went missing and we were looking for her. And they're like, oh, we know. Yeah. She hasn't been around. Right? And so we're like, oh, how
well do you know? Like, we feed her every day. Like, now now we understand First of all, why she disappears and why she's fat. That's my excuse too. You know? Yeah. Too many people for And. Too many people enjoy your company and give you food in order to bring you in. That's right. Yeah. And then we had another border collie called Sasha, and Sas was pretty
similar. Just another dog that you know, I'm sure that there was a terrible period with a puppy that I don't know anything about because I was a little kid, and I'm sure my parents and my older the brothers and sisters dealt with all that. But all I have is these amazing memories of this dog. Sac to be, I think 15 or something like that. It was my dog, she was mine right up until I, like, left to
join the army. And and and actually, it was 1 of the things I remember telling my mom because she was kind of at the back end of life. I remember when I went to basic train I was like, if I dies go and don't tell me. Like, I don't think that in the layered dress model would help. But then she died about a year after I joined the army. Anyway, but those dogs were mostly awfully dogs. Yep. They weren't really unleash very much at all because we lived opposite the park where
they would go. And so they often were on the front step, not in the yard. They were just sort of dogs that were around, and they made good choices. Mh And so the street... It's just 1 street crossroads. It's not a traffic street it's the local street. So the dogs could basically cross the road. Safely. They would check for cars and walk across and spend their day where they wanted to and come back. There wasn't a lot of cause
to strain them ever. And so for me, when I then got my own dog, and Jane got a dog together, his name was Ernie. I think Sasha had at me that just died was like, right at the doing it. Like, but she obviously stayed with my parents and me and jail together. And Ernie was a 7 year old like Mu Bot collie thing. And I remember, 1 of my first goals was, like, I don't need to be able to take this dog off leash to the park. Like, I need to be able to walk to the place that I'm
going. Off leash, and it was mostly back streets to get there. And like I did it, but I don't know why I had that as a goal because to me that was just normal dogs are off leash. And I remember being proud of myself that I made it to the park and only had to tell Ernie to get back to me 500 times. Like it was... You know what I mean? I like, that normal pet dog people I'm like, I would told you my dog good to go. Like, totally reliable or leash. Yep. And every step I be
like, you're Come back here. Hey Hey. But like, and, of. Sound like you got to re. Like dude. And and of course, he'd walk back from the park way better than he would walk to the park. And Be I I'd be like, look, my training is getting better. Like, all the dumb shit that people who don't know what we know. I was 1 of them and said all those things. But for sure, having the dog off leash was a priority for. That was a thing. Before Was a dog person, and it was an image thing for sure.
Like it wasn't that holding Alicia hard. And I think as well if I'm really sort of think on it. I think part of it was that All those dogs as soon as you put a leash on them would pull like a freight trade. And so it was easier just to be like, well, I won't put a leash on. And knowing what I know now, Those are conditioned responses. It's that the dog pulled into the leash got to where it wanted to go, the pressure
turned off. Now whenever the leash gets pulled on, the dog just goes okay well, Pull into this thing and it takes me places that must be also like, I understand all of that now. That's really basic and every dog trainer gets But before I was a dog person when I was just looking at, well, the dog pulls on the leash, I don't like that, probably if I don't use the leash, I won't have that problem. And that's true. You don't have the problem of the Don't leash.
You have a massive sm board of new problems, and you're accepting a whole new level of risk and liability. The dog doesn't pull and you you don't have to worry about that. Yeah. So like many pet dog owners, that was a big goal for me. And I was able when the owner of the cafe kind of looked at me like, what are you a fuck up? Like, yeah don't mean like, yes. Are you not good at your job? Yeah.
Why is your dog's on leash all the time, and it occurred to me, I presently have the 2 most highly trained dogs I think I've ever had. Right? Valerie is 10 and basically can read my mind. Like I really don't have to tell her to do much. She has been so ind in the process of my life that she just does the things. She's what made me pay attention to you in the early days. Yeah. To be honest, like, when I first met you, I just thought You just another do that
you know guy? No. Army guy that says things. But when you brought value around, and I watch your trainer, I thought, Holy shit, I've never seen anyone manny just bring up that well. Yeah. Usually when I see people manage bring gets like, they're just crazy and they just piss off and run off and Yeah. Same thing it takes them forever to try get the dog back. But she was like, walking between your legs. She was shifting positions well, healing beautifully, focused heels,
coming back when cold going to markers. Like, she was doing all the stuff, and I thought you've put some work into this little door. Yeah And I did. Yep. And that's why she's so easy now. Was the first 18 did the ground her life. The first 80 months of her life were insanity. And not Insanity, but I was at the kind of Yeah. And we we were filming everything. What's wrong that that's how should be. No. Exactly. Like, if you look at the timeline of a dog between the time you get it. Let's say
you get dogs from puppies. I I know this conversation happened many, many times in my head a lot as well. It's what I say to people when they come to me for dog training problems are said, the issue is We get puppies from 8 weeks. Give will take a couple of weeks here there. By the time we get dogs trained, they're at an age where they're old. There's 789 years of age. They're given up on pulling and so forth because they're just thinking, oh, just don't have the energy for it
anymore. Yeah. And you've had to go through all that time You just said, you know, like her life was very hectic in that first 80 18 months. If only... Yeah. Yeah. If only, everybody did that, Yeah. Forever more, that's a life saving technique right there. Yeah. So if you're talking about animals getting pissed off to welfare to rescue to being eu and so forth, if only other people did
what you did. If only people structured their dog's life in that first day 18 months, the rest of the time is cake, Yeah. It's fucking cake. I mean, it's a bit of chilly at the start, but the rest of the time it's cake. Yeah. Exactly. I learned that before I was even in dogs when I was on a working on a building site and there was a guy that had his, like, back of the car dog.
Yeah. And it was the same thing like it... I think we've talked about our building mate dogs like I had 1 called assholes ourselves that doug your ass and yeah. And Oh, well, like, when I was in apprentice because I, you know, Worked on voting sites for a year before I joined the army. This is in 2001. Yeah. So it's not like this is a long time ago. It is a long time ago, but it's not like this is 23 years ago okay. Yeah. But back then, like, if you try to take someone of someone's
unit, and their dog would buy you. You're an idiot for getting bitten by their dog. There was no, like, Oh, no. Like, no issue. No. Not issue. That was scared. You went to somebody else's. Yeah. Car, you touched their shit with without permission. Beat you fuck you. Yeah. You should... You're an idiot. You're not bitten by that dog? But so this 1 guy I remember talking to him and he had his dog on the site. And I remember asking him, like, how did you
train this dog? He I remember him saying, you just gotta be really strict for the first 08:18 months. That's it. And then everything else just falls into place. Anyway, Valerie has been that. Like, she's a borderline wild animal. I think that if I actually tried to give her straight commands, she would look at me like, hey. I don't get told what to do. But She just knows what to do is appropriate at the right time. Right? So she knows when I put her on leash. She walks on my
left, Ram walks on my right. They both just walk along beside me. Anyway, I digress. Having my dogs off leash is just not a goal that I have for walking around. Now Valerie could easily do it. And as I say, the 2 dogs I have now Valor and Rem that are my dogs have at 1 point in their life been extremely highly trained dogs. Rem still is, you know, like, we only just got a Psa 2 a month ago. Like, we are still in a very high level of control. And he will do basically what I tell
him to do. Every now and again, he might be like, hey, I'm very interested in something else, but I have the compulsive ability at that point, like I've layered the pressure to be like, no. No. You're doing it, and he happily does it. Yep. So if I wanted to, I could easily walk from my house to wherever I want. And Rem you're doing it in a focus heal. You what I way? Like, it's totally possible, but it's just not something I'm interested in.
But then I there's too much scope for things to go wrong in those sort of scenarios. Totally. For putting all that prep work in, and then having an end goal for it. Only let your ego get carried away with you and say, oh, now I've gotta walk the dog down like up into a cafe, just so the lady at the shop thinks everything's okay. Yeah. So that I look cool and people believe that I'm good at doing what. And it's great if it goes great. But you only have to have the
dog run onto road. You don't have to have another dog come out. And then the level of control that you've got in those sort of situations. And it might not be your dog's fault. Be the other dog's fault. But the problem is it's now giving your dog something else to think about that you didn't want your dog to think about. Yep. Exactly. That's my thoughts around it anyway. Like, I've had on discussions with people over a myriad of years.
And I remember sort of recount in my head, a technique that I did with Holly when he was a young dog thinking about some of the stories that you've talked about from L, mine and yours and in the variance and in dogs growing up. I got Hal in 19 89. So 19 89, that's when my mate mark and I cohort bought Holly together. He had to move out of the house, so I paid him for the rest of the money and I took possession of the dog. That's a whole
lifetime ago for some people. I remember as he started growing up, my uncle at the time he said to me Mate, you can't have a dog like this. Because we all thought he was a pure Rod. It was a Rod shepherd Cross. But he said you kind have a dog like this and not be involved in active training. It was the best words I've ever got. For all the things that my uncle didn't do in life.
He did that really well. He gave me some great guidance and he gave me some books that he had, and I read the books covered cover, like, 3 or 4 times. And I used to walked down to the park that was behind us, and my... I remember 1 day I went to go down there, and he pulled me like, a fucking steam train the whole way down there, and I was so angry by the time I got there. Mind you, I was only just getting into
my training career at this stage. I'd been to other places and I knew a little bit about training just enough to be dangerous. Mh. But I got down to the park, and I thought to myself, there is no fucking way. I'm gonna let you get off laid now that you pulled me all the
way down there. Because I used to let him go down there and we used to walk and letting him get to the park, but it became such a negative reinforced behavior that he got better and better at pulling, and I just wasn't paying attention to it. Mh. To this day, where just thought, no. I'm impatient. I'm going, and you're gonna let me go as soon as we get there. We got there, like, literally because he pulled me tumbling down the road, and I thought not, and I fucking marched him all
the way back to the house. I put him in the back garden, and I just ignored him, no food. So I kind of, like, lay punished him for everything. I got him out the next day. He was pulling, but he wasn't pulling as bad, but I just thought not I just turned around. We got 3 calls of the way. I just turned around, did the same thing. I put him in the back garden and just ignored him, no food. I gave him food later on course like... Yeah, But no not Don't know what. He would pair to...
Right. Yeah. It had to be stacked because even though I was learning about the terms of negative punishment, it wasn't really conclusive in my head that was doing the right thing, but I just thought to myself, fuck you. I'm not gonna let you do this. That was embarrassing. It was insulting to our relationship. It's not gonna happen. So marching him back home and put him in the backyard.
This went on for a 4 week, a 4 week of us struggling with this position, and he was wearing correction chain at the time, but he just thought fuck I'm pulling through it. So the correction chain turned into a choke collar, because he was just literally 1 of those dogs that gag and the hu and passed. Mh Mate we got to the stage where he understood it. He kinda thought I'm losing here. So let's say, 2 and a half weeks into this because I
was vigilant back then. Like, If I stuck in my mind about something there was no way I was gonna come back on it. So 2 and a half weeks, we got down there and he walked beautifully wasn't healing. We do social walking down there, but he walked loose leash the entire distance from the house to the park. So then what I did, I thought, I wonder what happened when I make the noise of the g snap when I click it. So I I clicked it, but I left it on and he went to dash. I dragging back
home. And after period of time, I could sit there. For me, I was just very bloody minded about things. I just thought you cannot beat me at this game. Yeah. I have to win this for both our sakes. Reflecting back on this story, I didn't know 1 twentieth of what I now. Yeah. But I did everything right. Remarkably. I did everything right. Because I sitting there and I go snap and he tried bolt and then he start looking at me. And again, this was a week later of him not getting off
in the park. I remember, my wife at the time said to me... Because I tell the story when Went home because I was fuming mad And she go, oh, it's so cool. You should just let him go and said, but then he wins. Yeah. Then he gets everything and it's all for naught. And she said, yeah, but you've walked all the way down there, and I said so There's
gotta be a lesson in this. So after a period of time, like I'd walking down beautiful Loose leash walk, I'd sit down there, and I'd sit on the seat, and I just got PPPP with the g snap. By the end of it, I was taking his leash off and putting it back on with had him even knowing that it was on and off. Yeah.
So we've gone through creating a habit that I didn't realize that I'd had let sleep into my methodology into creating a, like a much better form of behavior that every single time we walk to the park, he knew the requirements of getting there and getting to an off leash status if at all was, he had to walk down beautifully unleash, had to be a beautiful loose leash walk all the way down. This was an informal walk of course. I didn't make him do focused heal or anything
like that. He'd do periods of healing, but mostly informal loose walking. We get to the park, sit on the chair. I'd snap the leash for a period of time. I'd take the leash on and off him, and then I'd give him permission to do it. Now when I let him run, I'd always make sure a, there was nobody else in the park that he could interact with. Wasn't a dog aggressive dog at all. He was very social
with people. Holly is still to this day is still 1 of the most brutal and active working dogs that I've ever worked with and never had the privilege of living with. But the most gentle, beautiful soul of a dog that would play with anybody in his path. Like for him, meeting people in the park or meeting people in the str or meeting people in my home was the best thing in life for him. That wasn't a job he was told Did it was like you soldier. Like, if you told you're on a mission, you
need to go out. There's bad guys you need to do this. You go, okay. That's the job. Mh. You know, we need to do the job for the sake of world peace or peace in this area or to stop a barbarian from raping and murdering and pill and whatever. Holly was a smart dog incredible through training, but he knew that that was his life, but his Default position was 1 of the kind of dogs you ever met in your life. Yeah.
Incredible dog. It sounds like I'm immortal him from something that happened a very long time where it doesn't exist a lot of media about it, but there were a lot of people who saw it. Yeah. You know, like, I'm talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people who all saw it people from America, people from Germany people from Holland, local people in Australia, probably thousands of people who
saw it. So I have collective evidence of people who knew inventory him and witnessed him being that type of dog, but switch him on. He was a fucking brutal machine. Mh. But such a lovely lovely dog to share a life with. And this event that we went through, like it was such a struggle at start, but I was determined I was not going to be fucking drag down the street. On my belly by this big powerful fucking beast of a dog, and then put on my ass every time I was gonna do it. He
learned in no time at all. There is no advantage for me to get to this park and act like a and then have no relief from it. I would say within a month, we have it perfectly rounded off. We go down park. Letting him run his fucking legs off. I'd kick a ball ram for him. We'd play balls. We played biting on tug. We do all that sort of stuff. I asked him to come back. He'd come back. I'll pop him on the leisure
walk down beautifully. So within the framework of all that struggle and might to be honest. There were times where I was wholly emotional about it to the point where I'd nearly go home at burst tears because I so upset that I was being the asshole, restricting my dog from going on the I really felt like, I'd done an incredible injustice to my dog. Mh but I hadn't. When you reflect on that, Yeah. Being that that's over 30 years ago. Mh. And you were not a trainer. You were just a person that had
a dog. Yeah. Was just a guy with a dog. Is it make you laugh like, that you spend a month doing it when... Like, you got their goal. But like now you'd do that on the walk. Like, you'd be able to do it on the way
there. Yeah Like if a adult pulled your knee, you pause your whole, you're bring him back in into position, you wait till larry reset it, then you hit going forward Like, you know, most dog trainers, a lot of our business is just to teaching Loose walking to the people whose dog drag him down the street. And most of the time, you, we can get a dog not pulling in 15 minutes. You know, Like, and then you can walk around
to an extent with the dog understanding. You oh, there's no success in pulling. Does it make you a sort of laugh to think like, how effective you would be at that now versus then? I recall a comment that you said many, many years ago into our podcast history together. Where you said, I wish I could have the time with my dogs again and apologized. Yeah. The injustices that they had to go through. And there's so many things that I wish I could say to Holly. He was the template
for which I built my career on. And again, I had great true. I had great mentorship, but I didn't have a lot of framework. You know, like, now when people are sitting at home when you're not at club and your mentor is not there. You can get online and you can research shit to the hilt. That wasn't around. So, basically, for me, it was a a week to week thing. Like, you had to kind of wait till or Thursday or Sunday. To ask these questions and be left with
the resolution in your own time. Mh So it's no wonder that things took such a long time because you kinda had to work it at yourself. Yeah had to become handy and crafty in what you were doing. Now people just fucking hand you the information. Yeah. You've got a glut of fucking fantastic mentorship. Yeah. Yeah. And programs and online courses you can do with people spoil for fucking choices. All the information there the only difficulty is filtering it. Yes. That
is the issue. It's like a drag net of information. And what I mean by that is there's tons of good information out there as well, but there's so much more poor information. Like, it's... There's... You have to swim through sewage to get out into the nice water sometimes, and you just think how do I know? And the only way you know is when you know. Yeah. I know that sounds like a bit of an oxy moron of an answer. But the only
way you know is from experience. Yeah. Like, you only know that something's good when you know what bad is. Yeah. For sure. Everything's relative. Everything's relative. Leash, leash back to it. So I'm sitting... I have this conversation with this lady in the cafe. I go back to my work and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking about leash. Right? Something about my own training style since I became a dog person. Alright since I was a dog trainer. Or like, not a dog
trainer. I've only been, like, professional dog trainer for just coming up on 9 years now, because I left the army. But, like I've been in dogs and doing dog stuff for a while, like, a decent amount of time prior to that. Mh But this is just, like, as a profession. I was like, okay, I'm a I'm a professional dog man. What do I think about leash? And then I sort of started revenue on... I've been through some iterations of of how
much I use leases. So when I first started getting in dog training, I was very least heavy. Yep. Because I had dogs that I had to control it and I had to keep a hold of I was trying to bring them back in so it became a bit of a habit. Mh And then I definitely have been crew phases where I've not used the leash anywhere near as much as I wish that I or on reflection that I should have, Mh. Or that I would do now. So, you know,
especially once when I got into shaping. And when I really got into shaping and when I really started understanding electrics and how to use them in order to communicate with the dog and stuff like that rather than just straight a aversion. I definitely spent a lot of time with no leash on the docks. And 1 of the things I think is always super interesting. We see it in a b. We see it in the Psa level 1 where there's a healing on leash and there's
a healing off leash. Yep. And what we almost always say it at those things is that the healing off leash is better than the healing on leash. Yeah. And I think that that is a real insight into the conflict that people create with their dog via. Yep. And so it sort of had me thinking about my own training styles and how I've been through these different iterations of training. Depending on who I'm working with, what I'm interested in, And the reason I do this for a job is I genuinely love it.
I put up an Instagram post the other day about how we constantly joke in training groups and a club and stuff like that. 1 of the beauties of having the club is that we get to develop dogs end to end. And we're nurturing the trainers, we get to do all the Bite work sessions I get to either do or be at. I'm pretty tapped into what everybody's doing their dog. So I get to see how things play out. You get to find out does
this work. Yeah. That's the conclusion that you can come to when you're doing that end to end training, and the great thing about it if you see something that's not working quite well, you get to modify it along the way. Yeah. It's kind of, like writing a book and then you realize This story doesn't actually play out with the conclusion. So what I need to do is change 1 of the chapters. So it makes much more sense. Yep. Along the way in
the next book I read. Right. I don't know that there are that many dog trainers that get to see the start to finish. Like, there's lots of people that teach puppy school. Right? Yep. But they don't deal with adult dogs. That's quite a common thing. There's lots of people who just say, or no, I just do puppies. And once they're an adolescent dog they're out of my funnel, I only want own puppy schools. That's fine. Yep. Except some of those people are fucking installing boob
traps into those puppies. And they don't realize that because they don't see what does this puppy turn into. We'll just have a template that they work across and they say, this is how you train a puppy. Yeah. And so they might be running, like, what feels like a good puppy school. Mh. But then certain people in particular like I can think of who do a lot of, like, food trading stuff. And you account like, this totally unnecessary. Don't do the other puppy. Don't fuck
with their food. Right? Because you'll create you're creating a potential of food aggression. Yep. When you could just have no feelings about food and people fucking around with it. Right? So like I see people doing that and I'm like, But you don't... When people call and say I've got a problem with my now at adult dog, you refer them to a different trainer. You don't get to, sort of remember what that dog was like as a puppy and think don't get the opportunity to
reflect and go, oh, shit. Maybe I cause this. Alright? And then course correct on other dogs than a similar, and you don't do the same exercise. The same, I think happens when we do him home behavior mod stuff or when we're just dealing with a a pet dog owner and we do a 3 week board and train something like that. Right? Like, we just see this dog for a snap shot. Yep. And it's rare that we ever get to be really involved in the
training. Beyond our own dogs, it's rare that most dog trainers get to be involved in the end to end. Right? Like the start to finish of this dog and sort of see it through the majority of its life. And I think that's 1 of the beauties of having a club environment is that you get to draw an aggregate beyond, like my own dogs, of course, we see the end to end with our own dogs, but I get to see that with
lots of dogs. And you don't get that with even police and military stuff because what happens when I'm not there, I have no idea. You know what I mean? And you can give all the best us. But then they've gotta to work within their own policies. And those dogs live in a kennel, and so... And they're bought in as adults. Yeah. So people have had inter But there's so many foundational grounding that's been done already. So
many variables. Yes. Yep. So 1 of the things that I've sort of noticed with my own training and I have definitely given advice that's led people Astra, and some of that was through not enough use ablation. So when I really reflected on my own training, especially over the last few years, I am so much more leash heavy now
than I've ever been in the past. I use leash so much more than I ever have, and it's so rare for me to ever leave anything to chance in a session where, like, Let's see how the dog goes. Most of the time, depending on what we're doing, there's at least 1, sometimes up to 4 leash on the dog. To the point where recently, you know, I'm was doing a session with a dog that on his recall from the guard. So if we were to out the dog and call him straight back
to the handler off of a decor. He had tendencies to get up to mischief on the way back. Now, like there's degrees of that. He might spin on the way back just to take 1 last look at the d decor. Or if there were other d decor on the way, he would feel a lot of draw to those d decor. And so the fix is delicious. Like everybody in the room has a leash on the dog. Some of them were flexi glaciers, which is gonna freak people out. But you imagine like a square there's 4 points on the square.
1 of them is the handler. Diagonally opposite is the d decor, and then the other 2 points are both d decrease. And if all of them have a leash to the dog, and the dog gets sent to go out to the d decor and decides to take take a d to her, he can't. Because we can just tighten those leash. And the beauty of using Flex is they just run in and out and if the dog goes wrong away, all have to is push a button. Right? Then the dog on his way back. If he decides to spin, we can stop him
spinning. And if he decides to her and go via at 1 of the d decode on the side. The opposing 1 can stop that because he can lock his leash and the other that only success can have is going back to the handler, everybody else restricts the dog from moving. The reason why I'm so obsessed with leash, I think at the moment is because I put so much weight now into making sure that I'm explaining things directly to the dog. As long as you have an effective fading strategy.
Of course. But, yeah, we wanna get to the point where the dog then is no longer making mistakes. Yeah. Not using these leash. Yeah. And I think I get it because it technically falls under the framing category where a lot of times in the early days when we teaching fronts, we'd have to old door panels. That were fixed in the ground. So the dog couldn't move left or right, he had to come into the funnel and sit directly in front of you. Like, I'm a fan of using early framing work to
teach the dog, the fundamentals of it. But as I said before, as long as you have an effective fading strategy. Yeah. Because eventually, the tools have to go away. Yeah. But it doesn't hurt for the dog to revisit these strategies on a reoccurring basis as well. Even if we do have a fading strategy, we can bring the dog back. Like, if we can start to see any variance in the work that we're doing. We can
say to the dog... Okay. Well, now I need to bring the framing in, just to remind you what you're were supposed to do. Yep. Yeah. I man, A fan of it. I mean, again, reflecting back on early training models. We had long leads on dogs regularly. Dogs were on leads a lot of the time when we were tying dogs into work, so we could teach a dog where to be in the guard or Holden barker we were calling it back then. You know, we could put the lead between our legs or whatever it was just to
show the dog. This is how close I want you to be. Remember, In the early Ad days, we went through this stage where obsessed with making dogs come like, literally when I referred to Dave Sc dogs stagger. His dog's jaw would be bouncing on your nuts sack while you're doing a hold box. Sorry people who get offended by that, But that... That's the reality of it. It was as scary as how when you're were doing it for the first time because this dog was right on your grind. Mh. Then we
all got fixated on changing it. That the dogs had to be, like, a meter away from you so the dog couldn't be stabbed or hit with anything because we were doing patrol dogs back then. Mh. We kinda thought this is stupid because if you've got a shave, you could literally got the dog while standing in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. I know the dog could bite you too, but the likelihood is if you've got a weapon and it's concealed, and you... The dog's on you, you've just stabbed the dog. I've demo
that to a guy 1 time. He's dog he did have a nice dog, but there were some holes in his training. Yep. And I was showing you Dogs not gonna bypass passive. Like, the dough get off tap. And I was like sure that I was gonna bite someone, but ain't gonna be me because I'm not gonna run away from it. And all your decor work has been entertaining it. So the dog came in and like nip me. And then when I didn't react, it just went, like, oh, I don't know what's happening here and went into a back
and hold. Yep. And really slowly, I just leaned down like enough sub threshold, just leaned down and grab the dog by the collar. And then was... Then I could move, but I've got you. Like, I've got control the door, and he could not bite me. I had him by the collar. And I like, handed him back to the hair. I was like, this is a really nice dog, man, but we've got some work we have to do here because your decor needs too much cheeky chicken chocolate to buy it, to get you.
Yeah. Haven't had that 1 for ages. Yeah. There you go. I think my big thing on at the moment is that I have a sense and certainly, maybe I was 1 of these people, but maybe not to the extent that I'm seeing people doing it at the moment, is I think we too often balance trainers anyway, rely on being able to use, like, pressure to tell the dog that they're wrong. And maybe that's your electrics or whatever. When you can just have them not get
it wrong. And 1 of the beauty of the leash is you can let the dog try as hard as it wants to get the thing wrong. Take for example, he's at 1 example, and it's a bite work 1, but there's plenty of different ones I can give if we wanna talk pet dog training
all the way through other things. If you're doing directional, and you've got 2 people to buy it and you're bringing those directional fairly close together, you can point to 1 and have an active decor who is trying to draw the bite it, and you have a passive 1, and you're telling the dog, like, I know that 1 looks more enticing, but this other 1 is the 1 that I want you to buy it. Of course, at some point, most dogs are gonna wanna go to the 1 that's more enticing.
And what I see is people doing stuff like that, and then steaming the dog or punishing the dog in some way or causing in a aversion. And, of course, then, yes, the training results in the dog understanding. Okay. Well I went to the 1 that looked good to me. Not the 1 that I got told to go to and there was an immersive experience in future will go to the 1 that I'm told to go to. Like that training will work. But
you're giving that dog immersive experience. It doesn't need to have, and there's risks every time you do that. Now, I'm balanced trainer. Goddamn we've we've made it clear that I'm not afraid to use comp propulsion. Or a version, punishment, negative reinforcement. All those things we're very happy to use them. But when there's the thing to you. There's gotta be mindful of what were you thinking about when you got punished.
Yeah. And that's the issue is not what you as the handler we're thinking about because this is all template in your mind. Like you know the structure you know how it should have played out. But what was the dog thinking exactly. And that's the risk. That's the risk. Whereas if I had a leash alicia on that dog? Yeah. And I have someone running a back for me so that 85 is not possible Yeah. And I can send the dog and and in fact, when I teach directional, I will make sure that
this situation happens. I will fucking make sure that when we hit this point in the level of training, I will make sure that the dog will make it the wrong choice, and I will let the dog find out that it is impossible to not do what I tell you to do. Not because I I'm am beating on you and telling you this is how it's gonna fucking go. Or because when you make bad decisions, it's dangerous and that you can get lit up with the e collar.
What I'm gonna do is make sure that the dog sees a situation where he goes I know you said go to that 1 on the right. But this 1 on the left looks much more exciting to me, and that's the 1 I wanna buy it. And I'll let him make that decision and find out he can't do it. And so without a leash, I'm stuck with the point where I need to... The reason he doesn't do it is because I cause an aversion to doing it. But with the leash, I can just let him not get to that decor.
And then I can explain to the dog and, like, the whole framing of how the dog will think of its learning moment becomes different. Yep. In that the dog doesn't think I need to do it untold because or else, the dog's perception of what it learned in that moment is you know something I don't. Mh Right? And so the dog then goes, well, I wanted this 1 it seemed to me like it was available, but I can't get to it. I'm restrained
via this leash. And eventually, within a few moments, and you might use the prong to help the dog understand like you might knee him a little bit away from that decode towards the other 1. Eventually, you give him the help and the guidance to make the right choice. And then the tension comes out of the leash from whoever's holding the back for you or if it's a back to Whatever, and you let him blast the other
decor and be successful. So the learning outcome is that the dog then instead of thinking, will I better do it hold or else. He just gives up on the making the wrong choice. And he's framing his state of mind is that the handler knows something I don't. And he's not guiding me to what he wants me to do. Their dog should then think of it in terms of He knows how I'm gonna be successful. He is giving me the guidance to get to what I want, and he'll stay
in that more clear sense of arousal. Now like I'm saying, I'm not saying that you can't punish a dog for biting their own day. I'm not saying all those things. But what I'm saying is you maybe don't need to, especially in the learning phase. Now, eventually, as you said, the leash has to come off. Right? Like, your dog's not finished until the leash is off. Yep. But, like, we have dogs that we train, you know, being in the area that we're in, or we use
is insulation color on those dogs. Right? And prior to going into competition, I wanna know that it's gonna work without the leash. And, of course, there's the element of dragging the leash like that's a thing that has to know, play into your training that has a feel to the dock. Right? Like your dog can tell when it's got
a long line dragging behind it. And if you're gonna do call offs, Then yes, for many reps, you need that long line on in order to make sure the dog can't be successful in doing the thing that you told him not to do. But before we can call the dog trained and put our hand on a heart and say, yeah, that call is gonna work. We need to fade out that equipment. And at that point, then I'll go, okay. No worries. If the dog doesn't call off. I feel like he knows it, it's been 10 reps since we've had to
use the leash. The leash hasn't been, like, it's been on. We've been ready to use it, but we've had no cause 2 for 10 reps. Mh. Let's now see how we go absent the leash. But we're not going no equipment. We're gonna go the equipment that we can now use to punish the dog if he doesn't call off. Because we have to give him that opportunity to do it. But that's not where I wanna start. Know
what I? Like I don't wanna set the dog up right from the jump to be in a position where he's still learning and to learn via that kind of experience rather than just not letting him be correct and helping him and be correct. And so That's the biggest bug bear I have about leash in the training space, especially amongst balanced trainers. Because balance trainers, I feel like very often take some risk knowing that we can
fix if that problem happens. Now there's plenty of other issues that come other training methods, like, for sure, I remain about trying. Right? But I feel like a big part of my bug bear about a lot of the training that I see is that people are allowing their dogs to get things wrong. Knowing, I can clean this up. Yeah. I can tell him that don't to do that if he does it. Mh. Whereas, for sure that works, and there's a time and play
Like you do have to do that. You do have to give you the dog the opportunity to get it wrong so you I can say, hey, I know we've been doing it in a particular way, you made a choice. This is the outcome of that choice. But I definitely don't want that to be anywhere near my learning phase, I want that to be in my proofing phase. Yeah. I agree. When you're talking about timelines, in the early stages, if you create that pathway, it's still a pathway. Regardless of you think you rounded it out
and you've got rid of it. It's still there, like it exists. It's a thought it's in the dog's head now. I call that the maybe concept that you're thinking. Well, maybe today is my day. Maybe this is the that I can get away with this today. Like, I'm in a different place. There's a different person there. So maybe this will work. And if the dog tries it and is successful with it, it goes Well, my maybe
be paid off. Mh. Like we've learned in dopamine parts and so forth, like the concepts that maybe make your dopamine mean fucking sore through the roof. It's the highest form of reinforcement sometimes when you're in that gray zone of thinking. Well, maybe I'm gonna get away with this sneaky little fucking behavior today. Listening to you talking about this too. I know you know this, but I'm talking to the
public now when we're talking about podcasting. Like this says a significant carryover effect not just for sporting and working dogs, but for dogs that have significant issues as well. There's so
many dogs... For some reason, over the last month, we just had a glut of people coming to us with significant problems where counsel intervened, and I have to write reports for them and speak to counsel on their behalf and consider whether the dog gets a dangerous men or nuisance order on them or if they can get clear of it altogether some people are coming to me because they want it removed, and there's a whole range of
things. The vast majority of the people that I'm speaking to in these situations They are letting the dogs off leash. Mh. We're having conversation about what's going on. And when we get into the meat of the conversation, they reveal to me that they're letting their dogs off leash. Like, they're either walking their dogs in a situation that is far beyond their capability to control it,
or the dogs is off leash entirely. Mh So once we get down to that point in the conversation, because as I say to them, when we're talking, I'm an agent of yours. I'm here to help you. I'm not here to hurt you. So if you don't reveal something to me now, and I end up going to court as a subject matter expert for you. I'm telling you the prosecutor will reveal to me what you've done wrong. Like, if you don't tell me, I'm stuck and I can't defend you. Yeah. I've got
a surprise over me. And I said I've had this happen on 2 occasions where I've gone to court before. Where my client didn't tell me the entire truth, like they didn't tell me exactly what happened. And then the prosecutor showed me photos and showed me evidence. I've wrongdoing on multiple other occasions. And I'm fucked. Yeah. There's nothing can I help you it? I'm not your lawyer. I'm your
representation, and and I'm going up there. On my good word and saying now I've seen this dog and I know the capability of it, and then they're going, yeah, but do you know about all this preexisting history. Now they're all the little babies is that people have created where the dog is gone, why, Did it before. Can do it again. Yeah. And that's why the dog does do it again. That's why the dog a
repeat offender. However, when we do get into a situation where we start teaching dogs in learning teaching phase that you can't do these things. And if you have an body experience where you're out of your head with the occupation of some other stimuli, bird b, other dog, whatever it may be. Dogs have an incredibly hard time dealing with these and then suddenly, being reinforced by this
when they can actually get to it. Whereas if you just teach it, you're on a late mate, There's no way that's gonna happen, you can look as much as you want, but I'm dragging you out of that situation. So after a period of time, the dog starts realizing, well, that maybe just doesn't exist for me. I'm just... It never paid off. I can't actually get to it. You do need professional help. That's where you need to step in with somebody who has the guidance and measures in place to say to you.
Okay. You need to be doing this, and this needs to play out this way. And that's why for such a long time as a trainer, I wasn't an advocate for people going down to off leash dog parks. Or dog parks in general, where we create these may scenes for people I know. You and know I've had conversations about this before where you've said, yeah, But that's the goal for some of these people to get there. But goal or not. Some of these dogs are not entitled to go down these parks
off for sure. And they just shouldn't do it. For sure. To quote an old phrase, you wouldn't put a fox in charge of the hen house just because it's got experience with chickens. Yeah. And some of these dogs just should not be in these situations. And not, I mean, I'm the 1 who has to break the bad news to people. So now when we are doing a follow up and counsel are satisfied that I've had a look at the dog.
Then I've gotta say to people. Now you've gotta to go to a trainer, for a long period of time, and you cannot take your dog off leash. This is it. The next part that happens here is either a, you go to the highest tier or they seek the destruction order of for your dog. Yeah. And they say to me, oh, but this is a sucky life in my dog. And I said, it's not You've just got it in your head. This is a fairy tale that somebody is put
in place. Your dog is gonna have a great life for the rest of its life it's gonna have a better life now because now it's got measures in place, it's got control mechanism set by you, and I said rules and boundaries rules and boundaries. Whether we like it or not. Some of us really reject some rules and boundaries that are given to us. And I said, now some of them granted are unfair and unjust. But if you've got fair and just person that is basically saying, I care about you.
I want the best for you, like you have with your children as you've been raising them. All I want for you now is to learn how not to get yourself in trouble. How not to get yourself hurt, how not to get yourself killed. That's the rules and boundaries that I'm putting in place for you. Inside of these rules and boundaries, This is Disneyland. Mh. Like every day will be a fucking great day as long as you play within the rules or boundaries.
If you're a smart enough person handler or trainer, and you can convince your dog that this is your dog's idea. Like we've talked about with the illusion of control Mike Concept of it. That's a hell that I'm gonna die on. But if you can convince your dog, that this is now the dog's idea, where you going wrong with all any of this? You haven't. You... All you've done is created a network of an incredible life style together.
Yeah. 1 of the things that I've been asking people all along the way because I had a client come in the other day and 1 of these people that had a a cancel order against them. And I said, what's most important to you and what do you want at the end of the day with this stop? What do you wanna do? So they started rattling off this occupation to me of what they thought they wanted. And I said, who told you to say that? And they I said, oh, the
other trainer that we went to? And I said, let's go back to grassroots here. I said, I'm not gonna eradicate everything that they've said, and I said because there's probably some good information in there, and I said, but none of that is. And I said because that's trying to get you back into an off lead strategy again. We can't do this anymore. It's off the table. You cannot do it. And I said, does it make sense? And no said yeah. And I said, alright. So let's start again. Going
forward, what's important you? What do you wanna do? And I said, we don't wanna have that situation ever happened again because it was felt so invasive and felt like the sky fell on top of her head, and I said, alright. Well, let's rebuild it from the ground up, and I said because we can do that. We have the tools to make that happen, but it's entirely up to you. But there are some things that we have to do, which means going back to unleash.
Yeah. And so you've hit the point there the 1 of mine here that I have the leash for safety. Yep. And that's the biggest thing in that, like, the average dog, people who are not listening to us, like, the average person with their their normal dog. The biggest thing they get from the leash is that they can stop the dog getting itself run over. Yeah. Getting itself attacked by another dog putting itself in a position where
it's gonna get into trouble. The last thing I wanted to say before we run out of time is that I think that without using the leash, you're missing a, like, critical point of communication with the dog. Yeah. And I think that people have been put... There's cave paintings. There's literally cave paintings of leash on dogs. Absolutely. We've been putting leash on candidates for probably 10000 years or more. And so they are
hardwired to understand those signals quite well. And I realized again when I was sort of really rem on this or thinking this through is that I am able to give to my own dogs and into the dogs that I train, so much clarity and guidance via the least. It's insane. That's a really good word that you just use, and I just keep meaning to mention to people stop thinking of this as a crutch or something that's having a negative appeal to your dog because
it's basically a guide rope. Yeah. When you use a leash properly, instead of just allowing the dog to pull in leash, and it being a point of frustration. Mh. That's what I think we see. And that's my point is that when we see a Psa 1 people do they do their only leash healing, and then they do the off leash healing and often the off leash ceiling is better than the leash. Yep.
That just shouldn't be the case. Now I admit, mine was that that was the same with me because I at the time was free reshaping everything. And the leash was to me at the time, just a point of control for the dock. And it represented frustration to my door because it was how I'd hold him on the back tie. Like, it was how I'd post him during the bike work and stuff like that. The leash represented to him a restriction of getting what he wants. And I think so many people are still
in that model. And now with that same dog and certainly with all the dogs that I train and all the dogs that I have influence over the training for is I never want them to think of a leash like that. I want them to think of the leash as like, oh, thank fuck you have that on because that is a signal that I can get every time. It's a tactile cue. I will feel it. It doesn't matter whether I'm like, highly. It doesn't matter whether I'm focused on something. That is a tactile cue that I will
be able to feel. When we talk hierarchy of signals, probably odor will go above that. But we don't control that. So of the things that we control, the down the leash pressure that goes into the collar, the directional you can get from that, the amount of clear signals control and guidance that you can give to a dog with the leash. When it's done with that intent, I think is something that I took for granted for a long time. And now appreciate more than I ever have
in the past. Good. As as well as I am trying to pass that on to as many people as possible because I just think that it's a mist thing. Imagine trying to ride a horse without any reins. Yeah. And by a particularly skilled horse, that's possible. And with a particular kind of horse, that's possible. I know. But then you get into, like, the 1 percent. But this is Why Pong can be at the cafe. Yeah. And he can be off leash, kicking it, do his thing. And this is why, yes.
I could probably achieve that with my dog if I put the work into it. I have no fucking interest in doing that. I have no desire to get to the point where my dog can walk around the area off leash because although I could probably do that right now, could probably take the leash off my dog and give them the commands that I want them to do. They both have a loose leash wore command. And if I were able to take their leash off. Like, I can drop those leash.
You know, if I have to pick up a shit that I'm am dealing with with both my dog walking around, like, I can easily just those leash and they stay exactly where they are. But I would rail... It's only if I absolutely need to do that. I need those hands. I have that level of control, that level of trust, but I
don't wanna rely on that. I don't want that to be the heel that my dog literally dies on because I decided that I had a level of control but then my highly impulsive and somewhat powerful dog sees something that he wants and takes off faster than I can stop him. Right? Like... And I think this is a thing what we see is everybody assumes that us as dog trainers have this massive level of control of our dogs. And we do. For sure. But not everybody passes
every trial. Right? And not everybody gets full points in every trial. So it's not that we... The dog will always do what we say. Dogs blow off recalls. Dogs see something and just decide not, I'm doing it. And if there were a guarantee that my dog would call off something. It wouldn't be impressive that in the level 2
of Psa, we have a call off. Like if that was something that you could guarantee, you can teach that to a dog, and it 100 percent work, a hundred percent of the time, and you never have to worry. If your dog takes off after a cat, if you do the right training, will 100 percent of the time be able to call that off. This is not fucking true. That's just not true. It's very good chance at Will. If you do all the right trading,
there's a really good chance. And you gotta do everything right, but that's why we have a call off in these things because it's like test this motherfucker. I see how well you can train that. Mh. And even for all of us who are spending our whole lives dedicating it to training our dogs to achieve these certain tests still fail them day and again. My abs solution does doesn't exist in dog training. Exactly. So That's my big bug bear about leash lesions. Good. I think that I get it. I
understand why people wanna be off leash. I understand why the average pet dog owner wants to be off leash. I understand why some dog trainers don't wanna use issues because I've absolutely been 1 of them. But now, the point that I'm at I'm leash crazy. I see all of the benefits to it. I take those. I understand the cons to it and I accept those and I have work around them. And as you said, like, you got a face that shit out, I'd, like, yep. For sure you do. But not
early, You know? How many years have you known me for? 9. How many times you've you ever seen me, let my dog just run into the shed with alicia? Never once. Right. That has to say something right? Exactly. Just because this is my backyard. We train here and stuff like that. I don't let my dogs ever run off leash. Because on the way there, I don't know a, if there's another dog in there. I don't know who's in there. I don't know what the dog's gonna do if he gets in there and there's d q doing a
drill or something like that. I just cannot fucking I take the risk That's. That It's unnecessary. Unnecessary. It's foolish and it's very irresponsible my behalf as a handler and as a trainer and mentoring people to then walk in and do something completely irresponsible like that. Like, if I let my dog off lady that ran in there, and somebody got hurt. I'd never forgive myself. I'd be so disappointed and so down on myself.
Like in all the gears, there's always times where you have mishap and, you know, minor accidents, but I've been around people before that, you know, I've seen major accidents happen, and it's literally because they take those unnecessary risks They'll let their ambitions get mixed up with their capabilities and the next thing you know, someone pays for it. Yep. And at the end of the day, when you're dealing with dogs. It's a dogs that fucking pay for
it. Yeah. You might. You might get hit in the hip pocket, but your dog's life is on trial. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because of your ego or your sense of entitlement got in the way of thinking, my dog is at this expert level. He should be able to deal with all oncoming distractions and a listening stimuli. Well motherfuckers that doesn't happen. Yeah. It's good what we're having this conversation. And it's good that we're discussing a rethink of returning to basics because the
evolution in most trainers should be... I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. Now I'm thinking. Now I can see that my mentors have showed me away? And yes, it's worked well for them. But then when I watch them, why are they going back to? Why are they doing all these control mechanisms where they're framing their dogs and positions. The reason they're doing that is because they understand you have to
have a return to the basics. Mh never be in a rush to eliminate the basics. Like, the basics are there to to hold everything in place. I heard panel say this before in 1 of his episodes where he says, in the word basics or it was look. It local panels. In the word basics, the word is base. Okay? Because you've gotta have a base. You've gotta have a base layer. You've gotta have that foundation set. 1 of the things that I learned, it wasn't just from dog training
was from Martial arts as well. 1 of my old teachers are yours always used to say to louis we build a solid foundation, have a good base. Mh. Be strong in your mind, but also be strong in your stance and in your body as well. He never taught that you had to be rigid. He taught that you could be flexible and so forth, but he always said, have a strong foundation. Yeah. Any mental that I've ever worked with with everything I do. I mean,
when I try and rush guitars. Jake says to me you settle down, slow down, don't be in a rush to get through this. Because I'm thinking I wanna sound a certain way. When I'm a dog trainer, I'm thinking, I wanna look a certain way. When I'm doing martial arts, I'm thinking, I wanna do those high flying kicks. It works a very small percent of the time, but then everything starts falling apart. Yep. So leash... Yep. Don't rush to take them off. Of course, we have to get to
leash control. That's the point. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no rush to get there. And the path to off leash control is tons of leash. Yeah I agree. Alright. That's it. Cool. That's it we've just solved all the world's problems. Yep That's it another episode. Can I power? Cool. As always. Yeah. Luckily here. Just like right. Share subscribe. Tell friend. Someone did the other day, and I read it to you. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. They said it. My goodness. Here we go. It's a good 1. I laughed. Glenn.
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