Live from the Export Beer Garden Studios. You're listening to the b YC. And the unthinkable has happened, a three new whitewash of India.
In India, it is an.
Unfathomable result, particularly given the black Caps form going into the series. In our wildest dreams, we may have thought that perhaps the black Caps could steal a Test match when a favorable toss, have what go our way and catch the Indians on the hop. But to win all three tests, and more importantly, to dominate all three tests, seemed well outside the realms of possibility. But here we are reveling in the glow of New Zealand's greatest ever
Test series victory. So let's discuss And Dylan, you said at the end of the last podcast, now I want three zapp and I was like, oh, I just had a feeling, fellas that all the rage of India would be unleashed on and that third Test. But for me, it just proves that we got under their skin and we had their measure.
I felt it proved that we had exquisitely formulated plans that we executed really efficiently. Yes, I think you nailed it in that intro New Zealand outplayed India, but there was there might have been a random element to that first Test, sure, but still India won the toss. Was like New Zealand won the toss and decided to take first use of those conditions. But in Pune and Mumbai with tracks specifically catering to Ashwin and Jadasia, New Zealand
had better plans and played them better. It was immense. I cannot give steared Latham. I presume Southeast still part of that leadership firm, probably even came Williamson from home knowing him. Cannot give them enough credit for what they came up with.
Well, you know, when we were considering their form Paul forward, it's just such an extraordinary turn a turnaround from what they came from. And I, you know, I don't know anyone out there that could ever have protected this result. It has just blown everyone's mind and it is our greatest Test Areas victory. But we did dominate them, and even with that one forty seven guys in the final innings, I was like, I don't know, I don't know.
We beat them every single way. You could beat them out better than we out bowled them. We outspun them, We outpaced them, we out caught them, and it was just so utterly comprehensive it was. It was staggering, and you know, yeah, I actually felt quite emotional when we won the third one. I just couldn't believe it. It was my birthday and I just wanted something good for my birthday. The Phoenix lost, and then I went like,
the cricket has just blowing my mind. It was just three extraordinary winds over consecutive weeks, and each one more incredible than the one before. And I mean last week, yeah, you know, you just referenced to there with Dylan said, God would be good to win three nil. But I just have this feeling of dread and I just don't think that we're going to be able to do it.
But if we do, shit, it'll be amazing. And here we are, so last week we think we're having a discussion about whether that second Test win and the series win was our greatest Test series win in the history of cricket. And now this week, this series three, Niel black Cat Blackwashing is being called out as the biggest upset in Test cricket history, bar every team, bar none. It's just it's unfavorable. It just blows my mind and
I do hope that it stops. It won't, but I just kind of hope we can't keep saying we're punching above our weight. Once you've beat in India three nil in India, yeah you're kind of you're boxing in the right waight division heavyweights now.
Yeah, by the way, the Phoenix got a hiding. What struck me, Dylan was that it was a comprehensive team performance.
Yep.
And yes, you had outstanding contributions from your Sanna's the age as et cetera, et cetera. But the Batsman, for example, made contributions. You know, there were no hundreds, but really significant contributions. So let's focus on the on the batting side of things.
First.
We spoke to Gary Stead yesterday and I said to him, Gary, you know who I'm most stoked for Will Young because I've really felt for the guy and he's been an example of perseverance in terms of hanging in there, hanging in there, and I was so stoked for him.
He had a great series.
What a Gary see?
He said, yeah, he's he agreed, and that he said that you know, he's a good player. And he's been given an opportunity and he's taken it, and we were delighted for him.
And he might be carrying the drinks in the next yest. But exactly exactly, we'll get to that point. But the thing about contributions is really interesting because you can get contributions and bunches and you can win a test. But what I thought was particularly unique to the series was that not many Black Caps had what you'd call a consistently great series. Like Will Young was very consistent. Sure, AJS was great in one test, Sata was great one test,
Henry was great in one test. But what happened was they were phenomenally well timed. Yes, when guys did stand up, they really stood it. And the guy that probably had the toughest series of all, Tom Blundell. You know that number six spots just a dead spot for New Zealand
at the moment. He still managed out of that debris to score a vital forty one in the second dig and Pune and kept like a god on that last day when at one Kadie, which was incredibly difficult, the catch he took off the reverse swegk Oh that was ridiculous Ashwood was just it was fantastic work. So yeah,
contributions were key up and down the audito. You look at Mitchell struggled a bit in the series hugely vital weighty two that partnership him and Will Young put together on that first day at one KDE when it just looked like oven like conditions of pressing conditions amazing. Glen Phillips at number seven didn't have an amazing series with the bat but scored a vital forty eight night out.
I think it was had a Benglaro who and then he smote a few sixers with the tail and another innings that kind of pushed New Zealand from a struggling position to a good position. Sowdy gets his sixty five yes at Bengalaru who he had row it on toast for the first couple of innings that he bowled, but again didn't have a great series. Yes, it was just it was just, you know, these amazingly well timed interventions from everyone in that batting order.
And that's not forgetting Latham's eighty odd great New Zealand innings of all time.
Comway, a couple of chipping in a cup of time.
Yes, just on that catch with was at Ashwyn, that incredible catch by Blundele. But I don't know if you both went, oh god, because we'd used up our what do you call them reviews, reviews and the last one was an absolute shocker. That was a great decision by the humpire. That was I thank god he made that call. Your thoughts on everyone contributing, Paul Forward, Yeah, I.
Mean, I guess in the aftermath of the series, it's it's just sort of searching for answers about how it happened, you know, it's it's almost unexplainable. And yeah, that the multiple contributions is the first thing that comes to mind.
I think the wake up call that came in Sri Lanka, you know, and maybe that would have come we might have got a fright against Afghanistan, you know, the game that never got played, that miserable week spent in Great Annoider, And yeah, the Sri Lankan series maybe was the thing that we needed to push ourselves into action. But it did feel like India were at sea. New Zealand were
absolutely clinical, Route was adaptive, flexible. It felt like we were like the sleeper cell that India just completely underestimated, thought they were going to kick our ass, if not in the first Test, then definitely in the second and the third. It really shows that the team culture in
that Black Cats unit is so so strong. You know that they should have been broken going into that series, given the fact that you know, any number of data points, tea twenty Cricket World Cup, shit, our wash out in Afghanistan, pasted in Sri Lanka, captain's gone best, batsman's out, injuries to Matt Henry, injuries to Santana. India is a fortress. Players are out of form. Conservative coach and you know,
I wanted to touch on this just briefly. We've been we've been very critical of some of the selections and the dogma and the conservative nature of this Black Cats team over recent months, recent series, prior to this one.
Probably eight months to two years really, but.
And you know, they they were still pretty conservative with their selections, but shit, they were not with their tactics. They played in a completely different way. You know, they played with freedom, They were very deliberate about attacking the spinners, and you know, when selections were forced to the guys that came and performed magnificently. And I guess you know, in that sense we've touched on that Young coming in
for Williamson. I mean, Santana coming in basically because Bracewel went home, you know, and then you know Ajs stepping up when Santon was out the following week. Just just a bunch of extraordinary circumstances. Really.
Yeah, speaking of Ages, he likes Mumbai, doesn't he. Yeah, what was that twenty how many wickets?
Twenty five?
I've read something that there's no foreign bowler has taken as many wickets at one KDI Stadium as Ages.
Yes, it was Ian, both of them, I think before. Yeah, yeah, it was Ian both.
Yeah, it was.
So it's amazing. I mean, guys, when you look at this as a whole, I know you will pull but a favorite statistic from the series.
I've got a kind one and and a mean one. The kind one is in mineer obvious, ye know. The kind one is that it's the first time we've ever won three matches in a Test series. The mean one is the fact that it's the first instance of India being whitewashed at home in a three match series. So so good. And just to balance that, out just so that they don't feel too bad. We have also lost two series three mil at home, one to England in the sixties and one to Australia in two thousands, which
was very painful, very painful. Few weeks an you'll leave for me.
Yeah, we've spoken about well, Young but I want to go to some correspondence here.
Can I just give you one step?
Oh?
Yes?
No?
Do will Young faced four hundred and sixty bulls in this series? Colie and Sharma between them face three hundred and six.
And average fifteen collectively fifteen.
Jeez, I tell you what bluddy India is. We will be panicking, won't they? And mate, do you think, just very briefly, there was an element of them looking over to Australia and forgetting that there was they were playing a test series here?
Absolutely? I think also that they've been a new coach, which dot I don't think is universally adored in that changing room. Yes, and also maybe they are going through some of the pains that we've been through for the past eighteen months with a golden generation of players. And let's basic Kohali Sharma, Jadeja at Eshwyn a Gods of cricket in India. They're all getting slightly long in the tooth now and may have taken their r off the ball a little bit.
Yeah.
I think as well that if you're a team with the batting talent of India and the spin bowling talent of India, you bring the teams together, you bring weaker teams on paper closer to you by putting us on spinning tracks because you don't have to be an amazing spinner to spin the ball on those tracks. And you know, you have to show application with your batting and all
of that, all of that kind of stuff. But if your batsmen are not up to scratch out of form, as you say, getting a bit long in the tooth, and then you're young players who are really really good, but let's be honest, they're not betting like Rale Dravd, you know Rahana. Those guys just really kind of digging in and just settling in to bat for you know,
seven sessions. Yeah, that really that The way that India attempted to screw the scrum in their favor played into New Zealand tens magnificently in this series.
You know, I'm loving this bit of correspondence that we got because I was asking myself a similar question going, you know, regarding Will Young and AGEZ and Simon of CD rights watch well, age Azz are well and age Azz what watch well and age as will be dropped for the next test Canterbury beebs. It's good to have something to ground yourself in these heating times. But imagine Will betting at number five, feasting on spin and I you know, because it was actually my wife that said
to me. She said, oh, so what happens when Williamson comes back? And I was like, it's going to happen again to Will Young, isn't it. He's going to be ditched.
I think he will be, Yeah, because in christ Church it's just not the New Zealand way to go on with just three seemers, even though when it's normally green conditions down there, you would have thought three seemers could get the job done. Darryl Mitchell can be that kind of surrogate for I just forget that Glenn Phillips is you're one and only spinner, and then you could maybe find a spot for Will Young. But Latham's not going anywhere.
He's Captain Conway's back and form Williamson's got number three. You have to have a spot in the middle order for Ratchen and Darryl Mitchell. You have to have a worker keeper. Doesn't matter if it's Bundle or Mitchell. Hey,
but they've got to play. So unless they do something incredibly radical and say to Tom Latham you've got the gloves now, mate, it's a good place to captain aside from as wicket keeper, and then have to look for an opener, which would be will Young even though it's not Averages twenty two is an opener unless they get really funky. I think he is going to miss out and christ Church.
It's unbelievable when you consider that, isn't it. It's unbelievable, and it's just it's just a reflection of his career really, But yeah, it's very difficult, Budgie. We've also got ratching for a bit of spin as well, of course. Yep, and I thought he was actually he was underbold in that series, but there you go.
Yeah, well, I've already accounted for the fact they won't carry a Santa on AJZ in christ Hitch, and I still can't squeeze them in elegantly.
I can't squeez them in elegantly. But yeah, I agree with your Latham Kamai, Williamson, Revender, Young Mitchell, but I think I can't see them getting rid of blunder either. And then if you're seem as a Sauthi, Henry and O'Rourke, you've got you could do a Phillips or a Center or a bracelet and not have that fourth cema, because who is the fourth sema. It's not James and he's injured. It's not sea As he's injured. You know, it's Duffy another right arm, or it's Google Line, it's Techno, or
it's Nathan Smith. I don't know. I think that maybe they'll do a Phillips or a Santna or a Bracewoll, and they will get young in there. I can see away it.
It'll be Phillips, won't they. They're not going to drop Phillips for a Bracewill or a Santner, are they?
Surely?
Though? So?
Mmmm, fascinating stuff, Fellas.
What about some other great upsets and test cricket history, Paul Ford, this is your sort of zone. You'll be all over this. In fact you are. You've written my one for me, I am all over it.
But I just want to say I have thought about this and I don't think that my nomination beats what New Zealand have achieved over the last few weeks. But on paper, when New Zealand beat the West Indies in nineteen eighty, that was an incredible, incredible victory if you don't look too deep into the circumstances surrounding. You know,
and and you know. The case in point is that Playing with Fire and Babylon, the magnificent film about the right, the documenting the greatness of the West Indies coming together in the nineteen seventies under Clive Lloyd and the soundtrack of Bob Marley and all the magnificent things they did to bring the West Indies together. The nineteen eighty series Against zeal And got kind of left out of that
documentary because it very very much did not fit the narrative. A. They lost, b they carried on like pork chops and see some of the umpiring was probably not going to be It was probably more fit for comedy than documentary. But yeah, like that West Indies team that came over here, they'd just all been rock stars in the world series.
They've beaten Australia in a series, and then yes, of course they came over here and we all know what happened with Richard Headley getting was at seven lbw's and Fred Goodall and all the carrying on with Colin Croft and all that kind of stuff. Western is deliberately misfielding balls and dropping catchers and just wanting to go home. I love the comment from Fred Goodall where he said, I'm not sure what they got so angry about. I'd umpired county games in England. I wasn't a professional. I
was a school teacher. I mean, I don't think that made anybody feel better.
No Iver a series that certainly can be accused of recency bias here, but I loved that series. In twenty twenty one when India beat Australia in Australia, oh that was great. After Tim Payne said wait till we get you to the gabba mate, and they got to the Gabba and India won that test to win that. This was the series. They were all out for thirty something in Atelaide, thirty six years thirty six they won in Melbourne and Tim Payne was giving it all this and
telling ash when none of his teammates liked him. And it's probably true that smashed them at the Gabba and they got up there. And it wasn't just the fact that India beat Australia at the Gabba. They beat them without Kohli, without Jadesia, without Ashwin, without Boomera, and without Chami. Their bowling attack for that Test was Washington Sunda. Yes, it was only on that tour as a development player because he was seen as a sort of T twenty guy.
Only a guy called Shad Or the ker Lord, Chardle Nev Deep Signe, Mohammad Sharaz saraj who was really only a kind of novice back then, and some guy called Finger Rahu Netarajan who I can barely remember. So that was a magnificent day.
I remember that Test match very well because because of the massive injuries that the Indians had in the situation, no one gave him a chance and hall of winning that Test match, and neither did I quite frankly, and I remember didn't Pant.
Had a Pant and Gil who had both got there were kids, yes, they kind of one pink Gil got ninety ninety odd and I think Pink got eighty nine. Not out about you, Jason.
West Cindy's beat England and England in nineteen forty two. I was just a little fella at that stage, with the team containing a young Gary Sobers and led by Jamaican Michael Manley.
No I don't remember that, No, neither.
In the middle of the war, was it.
Yeah, yeah, you son of a bitch kept them by the Jamaican Prime Minister.
Well, at least I knew it was a setup because you wrote it for me. So all right, let's look at the ramifications then, because three Test wins in terms of the World Test Championship and when we're done and dusted.
It's brought us back into the race a little bit.
Dylan, Yeah, look, I still think it's a bit of a long shot. But the first thing that we can control the controllables, as Gary Stead will be saying probably about seventeen times in the lead up to the first Test against England, but we can control the controllables by beating England in the series, and that at the very least would mean that there's five teams in Australia, India, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Australia's in pole position and they've got a home series against India and an away series
against Sri Lanka. They should couple enough points to be one of the two teams. I think India are going to struggle. I think they've only from memory, They've only got the series against Australia and obviously they are not gain feeling great about themselves. South Africa is the one though. They've got two Test series against Sri Lanka and Pakistan at home. I can see them winning all four of them and I think that would be it. Is that right, Paul?
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I had a there's so many permutations. There's some dangerously complicated maths, but the guts of it. Some nerd did a calculation. Australia are eighty six percent chance of making the final, So Africa sixty four percent, New Zealand thirty three percent, Sri Lanka nine percent. That's kind of factoring in every possible permutation.
So sounds about right, yeap.
What would really suck is if South Africa make that final. And I can tell you why, after what they did when they sent their shitty team down here and we gave them a hiding. It would really suck if that became an acceptable method for They still managed to qualify for the final. So whilst it would be nice for a team that's not one of the big three, I'll still find it quite annoying if so that every can make that final. But something cool about the World Test Championship.
We're going to be watching test matches like South Africa versus Pakistan and Sri Lanka versus Australia and Gaul with a huge amount of intensity, much more than usual, just to see what the ramifications are for New Zealand. So and if I guess it shows test cricket with context is a good thing.
Yeah. And if you flip that scenario, that need of scenario on its head, wouldn't it be so great of South Africa just missed out by a couple of percentage points, knowing that if they had sent their A team to New Zealand they would have had a different story chance of making the final.
Absolutely, that would be delicious, fantastic.
Well, we're going to take a quick break when we come back, talk about the black Caps in Tri Lanka fellas minus heyt.
Though maybe guess you've got a meeting.
I've got a meeting and so we've got a very special treat in this podcast, which made us run a little bit later than normal, which the Fellers will reveal a little bit later on in the Poddy.
All right boys, your bals OKJS? Just checking or is it a meeting?
Is it?
Well?
I had some cost coss last night and I'm not sure that it was I think it had expired maybe so no, my checking round great, did.
Have shredded chicken and mixed in with it?
No, it was a bit of salmon with a miso glaze actually, and roasted vegetables.
But there you go, good stuff. Thanks for listen. We'll be back shortly.
We're thrilled to have with us one of cricket's fiercest, most relentless bowlers, Neil Wagner, join us for a chat. Known for his aggressive onfield persona and two hundred and sixty hard earned wickets and sixty four Tests, Neil bowled thirteen thousand, seven hundred and twenty five balls and Test cricket for New Zealand since his debut and Antigua in
twenty twelve. He's been a massive lion hearted, beautifully coy charismatic, admirable and hugely entertaining presence on the kiwie cricket scene since washing up on our shores from Pretoria earlier this century. Feared by batsman worldwide for his skill and passion, he's been a bloody inspiration to battler's all over this great nation. Neil Wagner, Welcome to the byc.
Mate, Thanks guys, thanks for having me.
Absolute pleasure.
And yeah, why'd you write a book?
Good question. I was very against it.
I didn't want to do it, to be honest, at the start. The rider kept haunting andnouning me for quite some time.
I said, nah, nah, I don't want to do it for about a year and a half.
And then after retirement, sitting back, I guess reflecting a bit about your career in life and a few bits and pieces, and yeah, a couple of whiskeys deep on the deck of my wife, she sort of inspired me and said, hey, I think you should do it. I wrung the writer up and said, hey, James, that's rather bloody book mate, and put it on and paper now because I've probably changed my mind.
In the morning.
So so yeah, it wasn't easy, but I sort of thought, you know, there's a bit of a story to tell and some people might like it, some people might not. But I sort of thought, you know, if I can make a difference in someone's life, then even if it's just one person, I'll be bloody stokes so worth a crackly well.
On that subject. I mean, what were the hardest bits for you to dig into? And is there a sort of do you ever feel guilty about digging into those? I guess very personal parts of your life that other people would have been unaware of.
Not till recently.
Spoken to some of my closest mates or cane to and trains around some of the stuff I went through. You know, it wasn't until probably very recent but once once I said it, you sort of feel a little bit shitty and bad, and it's sort of like, ah, it was better often and I just get it to myself and I was the only one who knew about it. But then after a week or two, you know the support you gives and you actually feel better for it.
I shed open to a massive group of his young cricketers which we had a meeting to give in christ it and sort of told them briefly about it and seeing the response and that I sort of looked at it when she's lighter, and I do this back in twenty twelve, like you know, and Mike Sandel was a huge driver around a problem shed his problem halved, and it was definitely that once I sort of felt like sharing those I guess insecurities and few things that you
had and mental sort of battles mental health issues and sort of felt easier to talk about it. And then obviously the retirement part was something that was pretty tough to talk about and pretty tough to put in writing. But there was a lot of speculation and there's a lot of talk around it, and people have their own sort of I guess, you know, made up version or forden.
It started agin coming.
Hard when you go out play around a goal for around and sort of doing at a restaurant and someone sort of asked something or said something and their own perception was sort of quite tough to deal with, and I sort of felt like for my own personal sort of going out well being you know, I sort of felt fit out there and I kind of wanted it from the start, and everyone knows the truth and what happened. Then I feel more happy about it, so I thought it's a way to go.
Yeah, and just to clarify, just for our listeners who might not have read the book yet, when you're talking about those mental health battles, you're talking about the trip to shrit anchor Eity and your create and when you had a really tough time, you found yourself in an incredibly dark place. And I mean, I guess you can tell the story now, but there was a lot going on in your mind that wasn't good.
Yeah. To be honest, the team was a pretty tough place at the time. There was a lot going on, coaches going on out the environment was a little bit more selfish, a little bit more yet to look after your own backyard, and it was tough building relationships and friendships.
And like I said, I talk about in the book, you know, the way I came and.
Brought up in South Africa was being quite hard and aggressive on the field and quite verbal.
And that's how I started out over here.
And a lot of the guys I you know, played against them, sort of take a liking of that, and all of a sudden you find being in the same change room and it's not.
The sort of key we way.
I think it took a long long time for people to get to know you, and at the start I reckon I probably try too hard to fit in and wanting to, I guess, show the true side of me.
And it was quite frustrating at the time. But you know, when you're in a.
Deep dark hole and you don't really feel good, when a little conversation happened and you get there and people stopped talking which was not about you, you automatically think, oh gosh, it's got to be about me, you know, And when you're a in the rabbit hole, you start thinking the worst. You better I think just going down room and sitting there with yourself and the team was in a different place, and Brennan and obviously Hess was
a huge driver that changed the whole. I guess, you know, I guess the landscape of the team, the whole You know everything about it, the whole way, the team not just run, but you know everything about what we wanted to be here as a team, who we wanted to play for, how we wanted to play was a huge drive from from those two and in Kane or you see a huge part of it as well, changing changing everything that from the first environment he walked into wasn't
really ortent sary the most welcoming and friendliest environments to probably one of the best environments in the world now currently.
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, you talk about coming from South Africa there, Neil and there is a there is a sort of different mentality that South Africans bring onto the field. What do you think, you know, the South African cricketers that have come over from South Africa good to New Zealand bring to New Zealand crew.
Yeah, look, I think the wall has changed now.
I think way back in the day there was a lot more that sort of happening, even if we played against Australia or Sovaka play Australia Australia Bay in New Zealands. A lot of that sort of stuff that have happened a lot more, I think with the landscape of Tea twenty cred and all these franchise and leagues and a lot of guys playing with each other and against each other.
Now you become mates of each other.
So the banter is still there, but it's a lot smarter and friendly banter. It's not as aggressive as what it used to be. I guess, and it's changed massively, like you're still the oddag year are there? Or people that don't really see eye to eye like each other. That sort of still happens. But in the past it used to be a real intimidation sort of factor. You know, people try to get under your skin and went quite personal.
That has changed a lot now, and I think it's through the landscape of obviously the leagues and players getting to know each other a lot, and friendships I guess all around the world now.
Neil, sometimes, to be honest, you looked pretty passed off You're out there playing, and you know, Michael Jordan famously latched onto like little things just to get himself fired up in basketball games. Were you a bit like that? Did you need to, I guess stoke things along to get the best out of yourself.
Every time I played with smile on my face or do something happy, I don't do it good. So I had to try and change that way.
Yeah.
Look, I struggle with anxiety and pressure streets and pressure of the game and things that I can really control.
Selection and you know, what people think about you.
And at the start of my career, when I was younger, I read way too much media. I listened to commentators talking about you know, your scene position, or being good enough of this or that, and things as you're actually trying to do, and bits and pieces in it, and it would be a thing where guys and the team would take the piss out of you with a little bit as well. And it got to a point where you know, you don't try and show it because you
don't want to show weakness. You don't want to show something that could jeopardize your selection in a way.
So you just bottle it up.
And for me, he was trying to channel learn and obviously I guess try and get aggressive and get in a fight, in a battle with a better to get rid of all the other stuff that was.
Pulling me back and holding me back.
They had to try and find a blue battle to give myself to get rid of that strets and anxiety and pressures and the stuff the negative thoughts was in your head.
A release valve very much.
I want to briefly talk about the end and a couple of aspects of that. You write very well in the book about the meeting in Hamilton that you were called to you kind of blindsided. I was wondering how you viewed Tim's role in that, and whether you sort of had admiration for the fact that he's one of your best mates and he's sitting in that room. I'm not sure if he's struggling to make eye contact, but
he knows that there's bad news coming. How you kind of felt about that, And also, in all honesty, when you came onto the base and as that twelfth man and the crowd stood as one for you, did you shed it here?
I started that first.
I'm not gonna lie to you. I had a not on my throat. There was a million things going through your mind that you just can't explain. Just that Number one, this is the last moment you're going to have a black cap and be close to the action in this way. Then seeing the reaction, what it's meant for people, I
guess in New Zealand and I guess, yeah. Getting their reaction was something I didn't expect, but it was sort of overwhelming, to be honest, and I didn't know where I was quite try and don't know where to look at one and then instantly I thought, shit, if a catch come away, don't drop it here now. So my heart was literally in my throat thinking, gosh, don't make it up your last little moment. I guess I'm in the Black Cap and playing in New Zealand, like you
could still play a part in contributing something. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, hey, myself and Tim went through a hell of a lot together on and off the field.
We pretty good mates.
I write about in the book that you know, when I came into the scene first, it was probably one of the guys that didn't like me a lot and sort of didn't really know what it was like really, And so he got to know me, I guess better, and our friendship sort of grew and there was a lot of trust that grew with that.
And yeah, we shared a hell of a lot.
And I know for him, you know, having to sit there, I guess captain having that discussion, it could not have been easy.
It must have been bloody hard.
And I have a lot of respects for Tim.
You know.
The first thing is we picked up the phone afterwards, and while I was on the road driving back to my had a yarn of me and spoke to me over the phone and just trying to really support and be there and every way he could and the first, you know instance that he was in the mount with a black apps camp. He text me and said, listen, let's catch up the coffee and we'll go, you know,
have something and every yarn. And I've got a lot of respects for that, and I appreciate that from to me obviously, and shows you that the leader and the person he is in that sense.
And it could not have been easy anyway.
But that's why I sort of mentioned the book is that's the brutality of I guess sport and the nature of I'll probably not the the first, Bobby want be the last to be able to go through something like this, and it's it's you know, it's it's gutting. And it was probably the one of the lowest points I've had, I guess my career.
It was pretty tough, but there's learnings and all these sort of things and you've got to take board I guess with it.
And yeah, like I say, although it wasn't easy, you have to spear forward for the guys involved having to do it too.
And like I said, it's the brute and brutal.
Nachel's classic Dela there zeroing and on the Miserable days. Yeah, I think you're done. Yeah, classic, mate, Neil. You've made it pretty clear. I guess in the book about what you're some of your toughest days in the in the black cap have been. But but what about what about some of the great moments? What what? What one or two or whatever? You know, what comes to mind? Do you think ship that was a good day?
It's hard to put a finger on it, because there's so many moments in your whole career that it's so so hard to single out. But one of the first I guess this one's when when Trend I think he took teen wickets to the base and against you know, West Indies. You know, I barely contribute in that game. I didn't really feel to good or ball to her good.
But you know, seeing everyone's face and finally getting your first Test win and being able to sing the pledge and doing it out in the middle of the wicket and.
Seeing the smile on everyone's faces.
It took about teen, I think or eleven tests before you got your first Test one. Some of the guys rocking now and then debut at a first Test one and I don't really understand how hard it was back in the day. You know, that was a huge relief
in one of the I guess most treasured moments. I guess in a black cap getting their first Test win and singing the pledge for the first time, and in that space around that time, I think going to about twenty fifteen sixteen, when when people really knew their role and stood their role and like I say, you know
the way the team was run. Then the confidence within the lads and understanding each other's role and knowing that whole team first dynamic and buying into it, that whole area there when that started was amazing.
It was amazing.
But it's with the whole team just started. You started feeling a brotherhood building. You started realizing that your mates are playing for each other. You felt like you wanted to run for a brick wall for Canaan, Bears and the guys involved. That there was when, you know, even on the toughest days of Test crickete, you sat back and Bears was very much on not getting on too
much of a high or low. And when we lost a Test match, you could sit down and have a beer and look at each other and the iron shich we gave everything, you know, we tried really hard and no one was pointing fingers. There was no sort of you know, sort of discussions having behind the doors or
something like that. It was just an amazing environment to be around and be in, and that sort of grew as it went, and then I think, you know, coming in twenty seventeen eighteen, where there was you know, some really good things happening with the team, you know, starting a record which was really proud of home. We started winning test matches at home and becoming a forced to
reckon with home conditions. There was amazing times as well to be able to just in the change room and know the bloody hard work has been going and beyond the scenes of this, it was just that huge I guess relief and knowing that you know, you story paying dividends finding forward. Then I guess the Test Series obviously
against England, where myself fish throughout. I mean I remember looking at the screen on the TV and regular pointed it out in the change room, you know, thirty something on years through three years, I think since we've been in England in the Test Series and walked out to better vision, you know, finally sort of got a draw and warn a series. It was a bloody with great night of celebrations made. It was pretty epick night that and and that just kept you know, growing and growing,
and that's I said. It was so many moments and and and all you guys and uh and you know in our test history that sort of added to you know, significant dates with that and yeah, that World Test Championship Final made.
It's hard to That's that's something that will always stick with me.
The guys have just had a bit of a moment themselves. Now you have any thoughts on Ada and three nil.
And three zip meal?
Did you put any money on there at the TV?
Well, I'm not allowed to beat yet still because I'm still playing cricket right, Yeah, but if I was a betting man made.
Chief as I would never guessed that.
Look, hey, when you get on a plane going to India, you're excited because you know it's going to be a tough challenge. You're excited about the you know, the whole playing cricket in India, how much they love it and get beyond the.
Support that everything that goes with it.
But you know, as soon as you get on their plane, your backskins the wall and it's a it's a bloody tough place to go and play, mate, for so many reasons. Obviously history shows no one has done it before for them to go up there, you know, bounce back after Slanka.
When not just the first test, within the second teast and the third test.
That is incredibly hard to go over there and play and will achieve that, mate, it's bloody art to top that. It would be a pinnacle of most people's careers. I reckon, I said last night. I sort of thought maybe, you know, winning in Australian winning your box and atists probably probably could get up there, topping there, but no one has done an India made and that's just a phenomenal achievement.
And I'm so stoked for those boys that are on involved and I know what their changing would have been like afterwards, and it's it's finally want to be and now I can tell you that.
But amazing achievement and just brought a bunch of for the lads.
Yeah, great stuff. Well, Neil, how do you feel about some quick fire questions? Mate? Is that all right to finish off the interview here?
You sure can. I'm bloody horrible with these times.
Yeah, you'll be fine, do you want to kick us off? Pulled forward with the first question.
Neil, if you weren't a professional cricketer, what would you be?
Oh? Formally one driver? Or I'd love to be an all black?
Oh you're nice. Does your wife do your Instagram?
No?
Mine does?
What what opposition?
Because sometimes I don't know how to do the bloody?
Yeah?
Yeah, that's it.
Hey, what one opposition player do you wish could have been on your team?
A good question? I have a hushing mammer okay, roll? Yeah?
Nice?
Nice worst roommate and why oh.
Jesus too, that's James ni number one, number two. I want to say Scott google line.
Yeah nice. What is your weirdest superstition or Rachel?
Oh gosh, I wouldn't say it's a superstition of richeal, But I'm I've got O C D. And I'm very neat and clean and tidy, which none would sort of pick from me, but annoy the living crapit on my teammates. My stuff will be clean and in a nice place and between Selvy Bolts and Blundle. They always used to just go muck around and I'll get back in the change room, mate, and I should just be everywhere. And I think it's funny, but yeah, it's it's not a superstition, but I just like it.
And yeah, they probably the worst thing about me.
Nice, easy one. Who was your favorite umpire?
Oh gonna, it's got to be Richard Kilber is good. Yeah, Richard Kilber was very nice. I enjoyed joy having him in the other end.
Could laugh.
Meal when you're cooking at home my go to meal.
Oh gosh, anything in a barbecue, mate, steak and bere and yeah, whatever I can cook in the.
Barbecue, beautiful.
The most disorganized person you've ever played alongside got to be a niche again, wouldn't it?
No?
Bj Watling, okay, made his gloves are not number They all in a mess, like's got to be twelve and for you, yeah, he has some gloves and you can't get a pee together.
It's just all over the place being miss individual.
But what's the strangest thing you've ever had to autograph? This isn't a family show, so you can say whatever you want.
Gosh, there's been a few things. There's a blow up doll here, undies and a bank card right.
Sorry, what's Cricket's most annoying rule.
Can't buy more pounces enough.
Where is your black cap right now?
Uh?
Great question. It's in the bag. I've got this little.
Bag that I put all the caps from every team that I've played for and represented, so Tigo and obviously Normal Districts and and the Black Caps. It's my kit bag and I've taken this out and it's just sitting on top with my Black CAP's helmet, which has now been taken out of my bag in this little trophy campne thing. I've gone the garage and I haven't touched it since the last day since retirement, and it's due to get touched now because.
I've got to get my indie cap out of it.
So for this week's game, who is the best sledger you've come across from World Cricket?
Wow?
Good question.
Yeah, I had a pinpoint one, but Matthew simply was outstanding. I had a lot of battles of Skippy and he was bloody funny mate. I walked out one day onto McLean Park playing a game and I had a muffin from Tea and I put it on a lengthh Andy Whens way too full for you, and he was just always starting some bant or some sledge or something, and
there was always a heated battle of myself. And so I want to say, skippy Matthewson clears up there, and yeah, Joe Root wasn't far behind with a few funny comments. You were there and Aby Devilliers and Graham Smith was giving me a mouthful and my first teamitch against Sinapia.
Yeah, what's your most embarrassing moment?
I played a game in South Africa. I went quite hardy opposition and I walked out to bats and the guy kept asking me how's your pants feeling? And I was like, I want to think where this is going.
And I just didn't bite back and sort of left and he kept going, keep going and goes, mate, can you can can you get better them in that?
Like surely?
After you even think I've been dishing out to you? What the hell are you talking about? Mate, I've body pants? Like surely, and he goes, how's your pants feeling? I was like fine, mate, He goes, well they're on the wrong way around, mate, And this went on for a good half an hour, and yeah, I felt like an episoute idiot after that, to be honest, and I had to bet my my pants the other way around, trying to think you don't get out now, and I don't get out.
And finally, Neil, the last book you read be all out, woonn't it?
No?
I can never remember the titles of the books I'm reading.
I'm a shocker, honey, funny enough, I'm horrible. I do not read a lot of books, and.
I'm a shocker when it comes to reading. I'm not the best reading myself, so I never thought I would write a book myself. But I actually read The Three Quicks, which was myself and a book there Trivia. I'll get it, honestly, that's kind of the last book I'll read on this. I feel it was the book I.
Recently read, and for some reason I can't remember now, but yeah, good one. I don't actually read a lot of books, which is yeah, it comes to nice surprise.
Well, Neil Wagner, you're an absolute legend, mate. You were hugely and are still hugely loved by the fans out there. Mate, what a career to be proud of. And Mate, all the best with your book. I'm sure it's going to go great guns and hopefully, hopefully we still see you around about the place.
No, definitely, mate, I'm still playing cricket. I'm getting on the older side now.
I don't know how long I've got left, but I'm enjoying playing for and D and who knows, hopefully get stuck into their black chess game someone way to come from the near future. But you know, thank you very much for having me.
Welcome back to the b YC. And Jason Howitz Bealves have hit it off to a meeting and it's poor for a Dylan Cleaver here, Dylan Neil Wagner, what a good bugger. And I had a question for you. Actually he mentioned working with the writer of the book.
Was that you No, No, it wasn't. Actually I did write about Neil Wagner and the best selling modern New Zealand cricket Greats. But no, I believe it was a very talented writer named James Borrowdale, who I think And I'm sure I'll be let know if I get this wrong, but I'm pretty sure he is of South African heritage as well.
Oh good stuff. Well, I mean, I'm sure you couldn't tell during the interview, but I haven't read the book, but I'm very keen to get my hands on forty bucks, so get stuck into it.
Now.
It's a decent read, and we didn't sort of broach it. But some of the stuff around him growing up in Pretoria and relatively straightened circumstances was really interesting as well, and kind of he needed a few things to fall his way to get into the the right school, to get noticed by the right people. But in the end, you know, it wasn't quite enough. He struggled to I mean, he made it into that South African first class system, but for various reasons, his ceiling was relatively low in there.
So I think he made the great call to come to this fear land of ours.
We should talk about the black Cats or so Sri Lanka, But I just wanted to say one thing. I was surprised that didn't come out. Any of his answers around his favorite cricketers and all that kind of stuff was Fath Dupless, who I know he was very close to when he was growing up. I think they were schoolmates and he used to go to the Duplesses for cricket training and all of that kind of stuff. But keep that one under his hat today. Dylan Blackcats well, you
must be excited. What a great way to celebrate a magnificent test victure in India. Then heading to Sri Lanka from some t twenties and one day is it? There's five matches over there, starting on Sunday night, actually Sunday morning at two thirty am. I think it is doublehead of Sunday and Monday two thirty am starts and then the first one day or is at ten pm on Wednesday night. Yeah, how do you feel about this one, Dylan? I'm not sitting there Lar.
I'm not really that interested in the tea twenties. I mean, I'll watch them because it's what I do. But you know what as a kind of a.
Well, what do you call that thing?
What's that little drink you have in France when you finished your main meal? Is it a pestif pestis or a pair of tief is beforehand? And then yeah, I think it's you have something to close the stomach afterwards, a brandy or something like that. Yeah, the one days we'll do it for me? Is she? For the simple reason is there's like I don't really care about the results. Well I say that now, but I'm really intrigued to see a couple of these guys that have been waiting
for opportunities, Zach Fuchs or Fuchs. Is that how you say that, Fuchs or folks or I.
Think it's folks.
Looking forward to watching him player looking forward to watching Tim Robinson, Mitch Hay, Nathan Smith. Like there's a real sprinkling of under thirties in there, which is not that common in New Zealand international cricket scene at the moment. So yeah, I'm excited enough. What about you?
Oh yeah, look, I'm excited to see how Nathan Smith goes. You mentioned him and Mitch Hay, then keeper batsman from Canterbury. I think the other debutante that's in there. I think Smith was a Domestic Player of the Year last year and I think Hay was Canterbury's Player of the Year and nice to see those guys have a crack and get stuck in. I think Smith's in particular is really banging on the door. And you would imagine, I don't know that who would be the next wicket keeper up
if Blundle was injured in the Test patch. I was just trying to work that out of my head on the fly.
I think the vindicated that Mitch Hay is seen as a red bull option was perhaps Daine Cleaver, who's over time has got the best record of them. I think you've seen more a white ball keeper at the stage of his career, and you know he's plus thirty now as well.
He might be.
He might have missed his.
Y, missed the bus. Also, I always look forward to seeing Lockie Ferguson and he'll be leading that attack with Jacob Duffy, the two old dogs, and then yeah, just say folks and Smith and Clarkson, I guess will be the main, the main, the main event on that front. Lots of guys aren't available for this series. Blundle Conway later Mitchell O'Rourke sow the ravender Williamson of course, and then add an a shock out with the back injury.
Ben says is still injured in Cole Jamison, I think's out till kind of March next year at the earliest. So yeah, it's a bit of a ragtag bunch.
But yeah, I guess we'll know we've already talked about him on this podcast at length. But I'm also looking forward to you you go through that squad there and I'll just quickly run through it sent Nichols, Young, Robinson, Braceball, Chapman, Clarkson, Folks, Foxcrift, Phillips, Ferguson, Duffy Hay and Nathan Smith. You know, Will Young is almost like the senior player in there now, and he's coming off the first kind of I guess, coming of
age moment in his test cricket. I'd be interested to see if he just is a little bit more puffed out at the crease if you if you know what I mean, you can tell when a batsman feels like he might have made it. He knows that he belongs, He knows that that's a far better way of putting it. He now knows he belongs and can play at this level. And I just like to see if that transfers to the other formats and just as general countenance on the field hard to measure obviously countenance.
But.
Yeah, we'll see, We'll see how he goes. I feel like the New Zealanders have got something to prove after the shoddiness of the of the Test matches. As well.
Other good news, I guess the world champion white ferns are rampaging their way around New Zealand, including to Havelock North, I know, and there are national tour they swung by Tarwa College and Tawa Intermediate here in Wellington over the recent days of Absolute Powerhouse under the tutelage of Robbie Kerr, of course, absolute magnet for woman's cricket talent over the over the years. Warm fuzzies around this one DC.
Yeah, I mean it's well, it's not a shame, It's never a shame, but it almost feels like they didn't get a long enough celebration before events moved to Benglaruho and Pune and Mumbai. But yeah, we shouldn't forget that.
It wasn't long ago that they just pulled one out of the fire and it was brilliant And look, I hope they get all the kudos that's coming their way, and I hope, as we've mentioned before, I hope it actually translates into real gains for women's cricket around the country, whether it be coverage, whether it be particip participation numbers or just general vibe of the thing. Will be fantastic. But have some of the players gone on to the WBBL, which is in full swing right now. I was doing
quick check of scorecards. I haven't seen much yet.
Yeah, I don't know if they have made it over now. Maybe obviously Ameliacur and Sophie Devine and the like, they've certainly been on tour, but whether they're doing the whole shooting box, I'm not quite sure. So maybe you might find that they go their separate ways over the next
few days. The other thing that's coming out on the women's cricket front is the Future Tours program, effectively for in the scheduling for the women's cricket and there was a bit of speculation leading in and then leading out of that announcement. The likes of Susie Bates and Sophie Divine merely occurre obviously really gagging to be playing some test cricket, but the economics, from the sound of it,
just did not stack up for New Zealand cricket. So it looks like that is not going to be a thing.
Yeah, I wonder if it evid will I mean, it feels like something that in Yeah, Australia and England will do and no one else will. I mean, have South Africa played a Test? Did they play one recently? I think they may have actually, yeah.
Maybe, And I think the West Indies have got a couple of test matches scheduled in this in this next set as well, and certainly England are going to be playing Westernies, India, Australian South Africa and test matches. So okay, yeah, we seem like a bit of an odd one out in terms of not being able to do that. But economics I think plays a big part there obviously.
Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that, to be honest, I don't know if I can quite work up the requisite outrage for it, because yeah, I like the I like the way woman's cricket is trending in the T twenties and ODI's and the way it's being played. Would I be gagging for a woman's test match? I mean it's not up to me. Oh yes, but you know, probably not.
And you've got to say when you I don't know if you've had a good look at it yet, but you know that when you look at that FTP cycle, there's a very quite a clinical calendar, unlike the men's game, quite a clinical calendar with carve outs for the major T twenty competitions. Obviously, the T twenty World Cup every couple of years, the fifty over World Cup every four years. It's actually pretty damn organized compared to that absolute smagas
board Shenanigans that is the men's schedule. Now obviously that's economics as well, but yeah, it looks a hell of a lot more organized that from a from A for the woman. But anyway, on we go.
That clinically. Can I mention something that's maybe not as clinically organized as the women's FTP, and that is Auckland
Crickets scheduling. So press release dropped in into my inbox this morning and it's we've already broached this topic, but it was there were a couple of Auckland dates in the Super Smash the Dream of eleven Supersmash that were TBC, and the press release reads, please note the venues for Auckland's for Dream eleven super Smash games on January thirteen and fifteen, initially slated for Eden Park before being compromised by a music concert, have been agreed to below and
they're going to Seddon Park and McClain Park. Napier. I can confirm that neither Seddon Park, Hamilton nor mcclaim Park Napier are in fact in Auckland. And I also, I mean, did you detect a kind of sneering irritability from New Zealand Cricket in that press release pool?
Yes, a little bit. And I mean the other thing is that I think it's the Luke isn't it the Luke Combs concert. I don't even like that big country and Western singer guy. And so I mean tickets on that have been literally to the Eaton Park concert on that day have been signed, sealed, delivered, sold, months and months and months ago, so it shouldn't really be a surprise, but yet the announcement is so so late. So yeah, Shamble's absolute chambers.
And this has wider implications obviously, and that and Scott Weinding's got a bit of grief for this when he came out and back to Eden Park is the future home of New Zealand cricket or cricket in Auckland, International cricket in Auckland. And I know exactly why he had to do it. I mean, you want to host cricket in the biggest city in the country and if there are no other options, you back the option. That's potentially available.
But eden Park, on the other hand, have made it very very clear that they see their summer future in the concert game. Stadiums for music. Concerts need huge leaden times to prepare them and get them ready. Cricket is just going to be forced to the margins in Auckland unless they get a bespoke venue. I mean, I'm banging my head against the brick wall here. Eden Park is not the future for cricket in Auckland. It's a diabolical set of affairs which was just in this just kind of reinforced it.
Yeah, they're turning into the full the equivalent of Pakistan and international cricket and days gone by, recent days gone by. Yeah, not not great, not great. But I want to keep an eye on too, because, as you say, yeah, the sneering irritability, they cannot continue. You wouldn't. You wouldn't assume, Hey, Dylan, have you got a who am I? This week?
I have?
It's Dylan Cleavers. Who am I.
You were?
Last week? A couple of sharp eyed listeners or sharp aired listeners detected correctly that who am I was Mark Burgess, the blue eyed Aucan grammar schoolboy, and they were Michael
Seth and Patrick Peterson are there, Michaels. I made a reference to him being usurped by another blue eyed Ucan grammar boy, and he thought that I was reference seeing Martin Crow, but in fact I was referencing another one, which was Jeffrey Phillip Howerth who took over the captaincy from Mark Burgess and kind of led the first Golden era of New Zealand cricket ready through his urbane captaincy.
Mark Burgess was a gun fielder too, right. I remember my dad talking about Mark Burgess and the covers, the young fellow, and I didn't quite know who he meant, but yeah, I worked I did work that out, and didn't he. I think he also worked at Britain Cricket Cricket bat sales and sports goods and all of that, which was obviously I think that was where Phil Horn ended up as well. But after after subsequently, ye man Phil Horn? Yeah, okay, cool, we have you got a
new Have you got another? Who am I for us? This week?
Certainly have? And I think I've made the clues a little bit harder, a little bit more cryptic this time around. But I guess the listeners will tell me if that's the case.
Who am I?
Is the case with a lot of New Zealand cricketers. My wisdom career summary comes with the classic did his talent no justice? Line, But that's not strictly true. While that might have described the majority of my seventy international matches, I found enormous comfort in the middle of a foreign field, specifically one patch of grass surrounded by streets like Kennington av Surrey Road and Lancashire Road. Very strange. I'm being a little oblique here, which is the opposite of my
batting that was very direct. I could have been a great T twenty I player, although I never played one. Very strange. Although I'm a wisty, my career revival occurred while I was a banker in Europe's financial capital. Then I became a wisty of sorts. Again, very strange. All good things must come to an end. Mine did at Milton Keynes, of all places. Very strange. Who the hell am I?
Do you have any clues for intriguing? No, I don't.
I feel.
Oh it's really got my brain wearing mate, this one. This one, yeah, No, this is I'm gonna have to wrap the memory banks and get the get the men and white out. I think for this one, I've got one of those big exhibition copies as big as a table of men in white that we got loan to us from the tab and I'm the acc custodian of that book and it is an absolute beast. So I'll
have a look and see what I can find intriguing clues. Hey, before we go, I do have a violence corner, poor forwards cricket violence corner, yes, And this week great news tip following terrible news, A man has been arrested following a burglary at the home of England cricket captain Ben Stokes.
Stokes was in Pakistan for the recent Test series and his wife and two children rapped the property in Castle Eden, County Durham, when a masked, gang broken two year old man from North Yorkshire was arrested overnight on suspicion of
burglary and he has been released on bail. Stak Stokes said his family did not come to any physical harm, but a number of sentimental items were taken, including the medal for his obe, which he received in twenty twenty for helping England draw the World Cup the year before. He posted pictures of the missing items on social media, which also included three necklaces, a ring and a designer bag. Yes, well I'm not saying that he deserved it, but yeah,
good news for him. But what a thing to steal the OBA awarded after the atrocious crackle.
Yeah, it's a real thing in England, isn't it. It happens often to football players that when they go away to play in Europe their houses get burgled by otunistic masked robbers.
Yeah.
Grim, Hey, DC, we've crept on for long enough today, thanks to everybody for listening. If you've got a short epistle, flick at our way b YC at Basebagade dot cod on NZ will slide into their dms on the ACC or the base Brigade on Instagram or Facebook and we will copy and paste that into our WhatsApp group and folded into our our episode next week. But in the meantime, DC, you have a great week, and we hope Jason's bowls
are okay. And I'll tell you what, no matter what happens in Sri Lanka, we probably won't be coming in as hot and excited as we did. Today because this may be, we may be in the aftermath of the greatest ever performance by a New Zealand cricket team and the greatest Fortnite in BYC history.