When The Boss Burns Out

Frank Butler 0:17
Hello Busybodies, welcome to another episode of the Busyness Paradox. I'm Frank Butler here with Paul Harvey.

Paul Harvey 0:23
Good day.

Frank Butler 0:24
And on today's episode, we're gonna be talking about managerial burnout,

Paul Harvey 0:30
Managerial burnout. That's the, I guess we've talked a little bit about burnout before, but not so much from the managers perspective, we owe them, I think, a little bit of attention, because we ask a lot of managers on the show, but they have a hard job,

Frank Butler 0:45
They have a hard job, they have a lot of stuff they have to deal with, and especially in today's pandemic, environment, right. I mean, right, especially as we you know, we've talked about this in the show the, the evolution of the workplace, you know, the rapid rise in hybrid work, or work from home environments, remote work, all of these things are going on. And I can tell you that managers are struggling with this, I know that I was working with a company not long ago, and that was causing, I think, some heartburn for some of the managers, some were really in favor and a lot of work from home those some others were much less so in that mindset. And I think a big prominent example, too, is Apple, right? Apple has continued to push off bringing people back in the office and implementing their new hybrid work schedules and such. And I think it's because they're trying to figure it out, right, I think they're really trying to find out what's going to be the best mechanism. But Apple also acknowledges there's going to be certain people that are going to have to be back to work on a full time basis on the on campus, right. And if you think about that, from a manager standpoint, oh, now your team that you're managing, are given all these different options. And now you're accountable for all of that, and trying to keep up with all of that.

Paul Harvey 2:03
You've got to make it all work somehow.

Frank Butler 2:05
You've got to make it work, yes.

Paul Harvey 2:06
And that's what we often forget. We literally us, and I think the larger society and commentary, it's out there. You know, we call on managers to give employees flexibility and sometimes shamed them if they're not allowing remote work or if they are, depending on your perspective. But anything, all of these things, anytime we say flexibility. For employees, that means complication, complexity, let me say that again, every time we say flexibility for employees, that means complexity for managers, because they have to not only adjust their working style with those different employees that are working in different locations are different hours, flexible schedules. But they also have to adapt their systems to work that way. Whatever that might be. So instead of having all your employees doing something the same way, you got them doing different different things, though, instead of having one system that works, you now have to create or modify numerous systems that will accommodate all these different variables.

Frank Butler 3:05
Yeah, I think that's it right, is that there are so many things that now managers are having to juggle,

Paul Harvey 3:12
Yeah, good word for it.

Frank Butler 3:14
And so therefore, it's going to contribute to what we're seeing now and be specific here. This is a Gallup poll that says it was published on November 18. Manager burnout is only getting worse, year over year, there is a significant increase in those managers that are managing people of burnout. And you know, a lot of it is pandemic related, right? I mean, again, the workplace is only managing people.

Paul Harvey 3:39
Just to clarify, we're referring to kind of those frontline managers who are active actively interacting with employees. So it's, it's interesting, this Gallup study, they actually saw a slight decrease in senior level leadership burnout numbers during the past year of the pandemic. But a big spike for those we might call middle managers, the ones who are kind of the, the in between of the higher level managers and the employees. So that's specifically the type of managers we're talking about here.

Frank Butler 4:13
Yeah, yes. And to also add to that, there's an individual contributor line on there that's flat year over year. So that would be like the employee themselves, that that burnout has not improved much. And project manager, not much, but the project manager is actually experienced a little bit of an increase nothing to the extent of the people manager. Now the project managers apparently already had a higher level of burnout to begin with, but it's been a little bit less slopey right for them. But it's those frontline managers are really getting burned out. And you know, I guess one of the things we didn't talk about too, is probably trying to fill job openings that they had, right. That's the other big thing. That's another layer. Yeah, they're probably short staffed.

Paul Harvey 4:56
We've said this is a great thing that people are finally you know, standing up for themselves and quitting jobs that don't treat him right and everything, all good stuff. But again, from a manager's perspective, that's tough. You've got all this other stuff going on, and you can't find enough people to fill your open jobs.

Frank Butler 5:14
It's wild, right? I mean, we're in a new environment right now. I actually I just did an interview the other day, about Black Friday and Cyber Monday and shopping for the holidays and kind of talking about that. And of course, one of the big contributors to what's going on is the the lack of people working in certain jobs. And again, let's just put it this way. I know there's a lot of people out there. And I've heard this many times, and it's complete and utter BS that people don't want to work. Right. utter and complete BS. If you're saying that about people, you're wrong. There are

Paul Harvey 5:47
Some people don’t want to work but yeah, that’s not

Frank Butler 5:49
Well, yes

Paul Harvey 5:50
They’re the exception to the rule,

Frank Butler 5:52
They’re the exception to the rule, what it means that people don't want to work for you, at your ad pay in your bad culture and your organization, which isn't going to protect them, when they're having to deal with customers, whatever that might be.

Paul Harvey 6:04
And that's a good point, because those middle managers we're talking about don't often have control over those things. They don't set the the culture of the policies, all those aggravators, you just mentioned, generally in the realm of the manager's manager, their bosses, so they're kind of caught in between and it's tough spot to be

Frank Butler 6:20
I agree completely. And that's the thing is that it's a really, really tough job, the truly the middle manager, the line manager, those people will actually have it the hardest, I think, I think so it's a rough gig. And I can sort of see that this is something that's been challenging to them because of the changing and in a lot of its uncertainty, right? I mean, what are the new policies looking like for work from home or remote work or hybrid work? How is that going to apply to me as a manager, and I have to evaluate my people, you know that this is problematic.

Paul Harvey 6:53
You're where the rubber hits the road. The higher ups say, Okay, we're going to allow hybrid work, or we're not going to or whatever, you're the one that has to make it happen. You being middle manager?

Frank Butler 7:03
Yeah. And we do kind of overlook, even though I feel like the numbers, there's much more line managers or middle low level managers, there's a lot more of them than upper management, obviously, right?

Paul Harvey 7:15
Oh, yeah. by an order of magnitude. Yeah.

Frank Butler 7:17
Yeah. You know, just think about how a company's hierarchy, you know, you always think of like a triangle right in the middle managers, and the employees are kind of at the base of that pyramid. And that means there's a lot more volume there, which is a lot more people. So there's a lot of people who are dealing with a lot of things that they're probably not even well trained to deal with at the moment, right? All this stuff is still trying to be figured out at the top. And they're trying to change all these policies. And there's not any trainings getting pushed down to help them out either with how do we deal with this, there's no blueprint, exactly, no blueprints, nothing. And this kind of goes back to one of the things I always try to say, as a senior leader, your job is to absorb the uncertainty for your people. And take that uncertainty and turn it into something that gives direction and you deal with it. But you're helping your people out and feeling like they have purpose, and that they're not having to deal with uncertainty so they can get their job done, right? Because anytime you're uncertain, it means am I in the right job, am I going to lose my job, I'm too worried about my livelihood, my life. So what you want to do is try to at least remove an element of that. And that's not really truly the line manager's job, right? That the lower level managers job is not to reduce uncertainty, their job is to take whatever you're putting out there and convert that into something that they can apply.

Paul Harvey 8:37
And they're almost literally where the rubber hits the road. And, you know, that's always been the case for foremen, middle managers, whatever type of position you're talking about. This is nothing new. But the extent to which the friction between the rubber and the road is increasing, or has increased over the past year is fairly unprecedented. I think we, as a society have sort of overlooked the role that they played in functioning during the pandemic, they've really had to do a lot of the grunt work. And I don't think they get enough credit for that from us or from anyone else. And that, of course, further contributes to burnout, for sure.

Frank Butler 9:14
Acknowledgement can go a long way to help somebody continue to do their job and be motivated, right? That simple, thank you can be something that's so tremendous, that we rarely give,

Paul Harvey 9:26
Especially in the context of burnout, specifically talking about burnout,

Frank Butler 9:30
Right

Paul Harvey 9:31
Those types of things that help reinforce their perceived strengths, that they're having a positive impact and that their efforts are appreciated. You know, those are nice things in general, but in the context of someone who's at risk of burnout, basically just throwing in the towel and saying, I give up, I can't do it. Those tactics are hugely important.

Frank Butler 9:52
So let's go with that real quick. You bring up something you know, we talk about burnout. But what is burnout, right? I mean for our audience They might not necessarily know what burnout includes.

Paul Harvey 10:03
So if you will imagine, say, a hill going up one side down the other side. And as high as in the middle, like a mountain, there's a relationship between stress and performance. So as you have more stress, you generally have higher performance, you're going up the mountain there, to a point, and then all of a sudden, you reach this point, and you just drop off a cliff on the other side, and your performance just goes down the toilet. That is one conceptualization of burnout, you've reached a point where you lack the coping resources, the coping mechanisms, the skills, the abilities, the time, the energy to deal with the demands being placed on you. So you just can't get blood from a stone throw in the towel, you quit. Or you just sort of withdraw and say, I give up, fire me if you want to, or you get into coping techniques that are destructive, like alcohol and drugs and that kind of thing.

Frank Butler 11:00
Yeah, that sounds like it to me. You know, I always I think one of the things I always do is I always associate burnout with getting to the idea of like turnover intentions, that kind of stuff. Absenteeism

Paul Harvey 11:12
Which is actually withdrawal,

Frank Butler 11:13
Right. Withdrawal behaviors,

Paul Harvey 11:15
Which is a common result of burnout. so common that yeah, they're almost kind of the same thing.

Frank Butler 11:20
Right. And I know that that's probably not the best way because burnout is distinctively different.

Paul Harvey 11:26
Yeah, if you want to get a little like, textbooky about it, we can…Psychology Today. So they define burnout, as a state of emotional, mental, and often physical exhaustion brought on by prolonged or repeated stress. Though it's most often caused by problems at work, it can also appear in other areas of life, such as parenting, caretaking or romantic relationships.

Frank Butler 11:46
Interesting. And I know…here, so I pulled up this document from the Gallup poll, it kind of took me through there. And it says employee burnout undermines health and productivity. So it said that employees who say that they're often are always experiencing burnout at work. 63% are more likely to take a workday, you know, so there's some absenteeism in there a sick day. Yep, half or as likely to discuss how to approach performance goals with their manage managers. 23% are more likely to visit an emergency room. That's interesting, really interesting connection, 2.6 times more likely to be actively seeking a different job. And then 13% or less confident in their performance. I think that's something that's important to understand is that if you're experiencing burnout, that means that there's so much more that this is impact. It's just not just the stress and you going on, I don't want to do this anymore. There's more to it. I mean, there's there's the health and well being work life balance aspects of it, you know, that goes home with you, right? I mean, it doesn't magically go and stop when you walk out the door, this comes home,  so you’re at home feeling sick.

Paul Harvey 12:51
Yeah, that's a really good point that spillover effect. If you find that you leave work, and that sense of being overwhelmed a sense of dread about your job stays with you, then you're on your way, if not already there, what you often see is if there's any problems happening on the homefront, someone's marriages and is struggling, or kids, having a hard time in school, anything like that, that adds to it, you start seeing it go both ways, the home stress starts to spill over into the work life, and then you end up in a real bad spot.

Frank Butler 13:23
Exactly. But that's just it, right? So this is why we are having this conversation. Because you know, obviously here the Busyness Paradox, we believe strongly in helping your employees with their well being. So that way, they can be more effective. And more efficient employees at the end of the day, and managers are still employees dry, we might have the labeled manager, but especially these line managers, these sort of lower level managers, they are still employees, they might have reports,

Paul Harvey 13:52
They have a boss too, probably multiple bosses

Frank Butler 13:54
Right. Yeah, they're probably dealing with a lot of the hierarchical challenges too. But they're the ones who don't get to make the real big decisions. They're the ones who are having to be hamstrung by what's being decided at the top and being pushed down upon them.

Paul Harvey 14:06
And that's one of…the so again, burnout is a result of stress. And there's different types of stress. And one type is where you have demands that are placed on you, but you lack the necessary resources or permissions or whatever it is to address those demands to fulfill those demands. So you're being asked, like, get all this stuff done on time, you don't have the number of employees you need to do it. It's on you. That in itself is a powerful form of stress that understandably, leads to burnout a lot faster than maybe other types of stress and strain at work.

Frank Butler 14:44
See. And that's interesting, right? Because there's so many different things that come together to make these impacts and I think that's something that people don't often think about, you know, if you think back to the conversation with that we had with Brooks right about [[WUSI]], one of the things that he said that He's seen often the workplaces that managers want kind of these binary things, it either is or isn't right, it's either going to be this or it isn't. And unfortunately, the world is just simply more complex than that. And it goes back to write your statement earlier says flexibility leads to complexity. And we've got to understand that people are complex, the way we work are complex. And the impacts of different things that are attacking us or coming at us, or that we're having to do it are gonna have different they're gonna manifest themselves in different ways, right? Some people do thrive on the chaos, but it's a lot fewer people than you think.

Paul Harvey 15:39
And we all have that point where we hit the cliff, even if yours is way farther down the road than other people. That's right. We all have limits. Yeah,

Frank Butler 15:46
That's it. Exactly. That's exactly correct. We all have those limits. And right, eventually, even if somebody who thrives on chaos, they're still gonna hit a cliff, at some point,

Paul Harvey 15:56
There's only so much chaos they can thrive on.

Frank Butler 15:59
Yes, I think that's why it's important that we have this conversation. If you're managing managers, one of the biggest things that you can do is start having better communication with your your people, I think this is something that is so poorly done, for whatever reason, we just don't communicate effectively as a whole. And managers, senior managers in particular, seem to be really profoundly bad at it, you have to as a senior leader, be more communicative, really try to explain what's going on. And as I said earlier, it's about giving clarity to people, it's by giving them direction by making them feel confident, so they can keep working. And you're striving to figure out ways to help improve their ability to get their jobs done, or there's finding the right tools to bring in to help them out. Or, you know, especially as we get into these, you know, hybrid and HyFlex, work environments, blah, so there's so much there. But it takes really being intentional, and diligent with communication, and not just, you know, sending an email. And that being it, there's there's layers to it, right? There's emails, town halls, so many different ways. But you also have to make sure that your top management team has a unified agreement on what's going on, right. And we're trying to figure out what we want to do for, you know, employee flexibility in terms of work environment, can they be remote? Can they work from home more hybrid work, you know, whatever that might be? Because everyone has their preferences? Well, if you guys can't get to a common definition at the top, what can you get a definition on, like, what seems to be something that you guys would be okay with, at least consolidating and agreeing upon, so everybody understands where you are, even if you're not prepared to do something so rigid as create policies, because a lot of companies don't want to right?, they just don't,

Paul Harvey 17:44
and I think is both a cause and effect of that increased communication. You know, we all have what we call bounded rationality, we don't know what we don't know. So it's real easy for someone in a senior leadership position to say, I think this would be a good idea, make it so and not realize the layers of complexity that they just dumped on their middle managers. I'm reminded a bit of not to get like political but I want to say it was Hubert Humphrey who ran for president against Nixon in 68. I might be wrong about this. But after he lost the election, he'd been in the Senate, I think, for several terms, decades, basically, a career politician, retired from all that after the election, and went home and started, I think, a hotel or something, and said, If I had done this, before I got into politics and realized how complicated is to comply with all these laws, or regulations or whatever, all these Well, meaning things that we thrust down from on high, I would have voted differently. When you're in a high level position. Point being, it's easy to say, Yeah, this is a good thing, go do it. Without understanding how difficult that easy thing might actually be in practice when the rubber hits the road, right? We all do it to a certain extent, but having that higher level of communication, occasionally hear about managers, senior level managers, who will take say, a week or two out of every year or something like that, and put themselves on the front lines, work side by side with a foreman or even like on the production lines or whatever themselves to sort of keep themselves grounded in that reality. I think that's a great way to write to know what you don't know. So you don't create undue demands and stress on your managers.

Frank Butler  19:29  
So it's funny you talk about that. I was just reading an article about I think it's the new or current GE CEO, who's kind of helping navigate GE through this break up into three separate companies. And the company he worked at before going to GE I believe it was a Japanese air conditioner manufacturer, I believe I'm kind of going off memory here. And he said that this was one of the big things about the Japanese workplaces. One they were pretty direct about things right. So which is good, right? But the other thing is like it would not be Surprise, every every once in a while, see an executive out mopping the floors are on the production line assembling something, right? They're getting their hands dirty, to keep themselves grounded in the different layers that are going on in their business. And I think that's so important to do that on occasion, right? I mean, kind of a quick aside, that was the thing I loved about the original season or two of undercover boss

Paul Harvey  20:24  
Right

Frank Butler  20:24  
It was like that, right? It's like, hey, well, how do our policies up high, get translated as it goes through the game of telephone and gets implemented? How does that actually affect the workers? And so I love that about the original season that now I kind of got a little bit to like, oh, there's a sob story. 

Paul Harvey  20:39  
It went off the rails fast. And there was so much potential.

Frank Butler  20:42  
But I mean, I still love that concept. Yeah, yeah. What you know, people, you know, that's not going to get viewers right. Kind of like, you know, we're never going to get the viewership or listenership of Joe Rogan. And because we're not, 

Paul Harvey  20:53  
Because we're not Joe Rogan 

Frank Butler  20:54  
Trying to entertain in the same way,

Paul Harvey  20:56  
Again, this is rubber hitting the road, people will click on certain things in larger numbers or watch certain things in larger numbers than other things. So if we were to say, hire a middle manager, and tell them get our download numbers up to 7.3 million by the end of the year, for us, it's like, it sounds easy, you know? Obviously, it doesn't sound easy to us either. But

Frank Butler  21:22  
No, it's certainly very unrealistic, is unrealistic, but unless he pays a bunch of people in a country like China or India to download it, right,

Paul Harvey  21:32  
Something more reasonable say, like, 10,000, an episode or something,

Frank Butler  21:37  
Which would be good stretch goal, but

Paul Harvey  21:39  
Would be good. But how do you make that happen?

Frank Butler  21:43  
Especially if we're not giving them the resources to do it, right, like didn't know no monetary stuff beyond just their salary? Okay, you gotta go now, you know,

Paul Harvey  21:50  
Right. Let's do it. It's your job, do your job.

Frank Butler  21:52  
There's no advertising budget, figure it out.

Paul Harvey  21:55  
We should try it. Anyone want a job?

Frank Butler  21:59  
We're not gonna be able to pay you anything. But,

Paul Harvey  22:02  
But you'll be a manager… even though you won't have any employees to manage. Give you a good title.

Frank Butler  22:07  
We'll give you a good title.

Paul Harvey  22:09  
Lack of resources...unrealistic goals....

Frank Butler  22:11  
Unrealistic goals.

Paul Harvey  22:13  
Send resumes to input@BusynessParadox.com

Frank Butler  22:16  
And go to our website, busynessparadox.com

Paul Harvey  22:18  
It’s something we're going to do I think 

Frank Butler  22:21  
Eh, it's something we would do to isn’t it 

Paul Harvey  22:23  
I don't see a reality where we don't do this

Frank Butler  22:25  
it's going to be awful.

Paul Harvey  22:26  
It is.

Frank Butler  22:27  
It's going to be awful, too. So…

Paul Harvey  22:29  
Keep an eye out for that.

Frank Butler  22:30  
But we will be taking applications if anybody's interested in helping out. You know, spreading the word please. Actually, if you're enjoying the show, please spread the love. Rate us. subscribe. Tell your friends, tell your boss, tell your employees, whatever.

Paul Harvey  22:43  
You’re our middle managers, it's your responsibility to get our show

Frank Butler  22:48  
That's right

Paul Harvey  22:48  
To as many people as possible.

Frank Butler  22:49  
That's right. That's right. So to help summarize here, remember, communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate, keep it clear, try to not obfuscate it with cliches or metaphors that won't really connect. Right. Yeah,

Paul Harvey  23:04  
I'm glad you…glad you had that caveat. Because there is such a thing as communication overload. That's not helping anything that is just like, here's some more cliches for you. Thanks for taking my time away from my impossible job to do that. Yeah. Quality communication.

Frank Butler  23:19  
Yes, yes, I keep saying this is one thing that aggravates me a lot is you know, people will try to come up with these really flowery, like, mission statements that, you know, use these words that, oh, sure, kind of might have multiple meanings, right. But they sound good. And you're like, you can't do that. Because what you're doing is transparency. Well, and your your what you do is you know, you're leaving it up to interpretation.

Paul Harvey  23:41  
And you're not addressing every possible set of circumstances. It's just it's a vague, vague words. Yep. With limited applicability and real world situations, usually.

Frank Butler  23:53  
Exactly. So that's one element. But here's another thing as an employee, recognize that your manager might be actually stressing out a lot, their turnover intentions going on, you know, they're burning out, especially if you're in an environment where you know, your workplaces not really come up with anything concrete, right. And there's some people working from home. And here's another thing, right? So let's say that your organization hasn't come up with anything concrete. So like, when managers let their people work from home two days a week, your managers not and you're like, Why Why can't I and you're going into manager go, Well, why can I and that's causing stress too, right? Because it might be their preference, and they hired you to work for them. And now you're not liking that environment. And it makes sense, right? So if you're that manager, you're stressing out about it, because it's like you're having to go against what you think your ideals are. But at the same time, as an employee, you got to understand that's probably adding to a greater burden on them, which might affect how they respond to you. And it might make them angry toward you or it might make them like just go like, Oh, I don't want to deal with you right now. Or they don't give you the guidance that you need. developing. So just be patient. You know, don't badger somebody goings like one guy start working from home a couple days a week like so. And so

Paul Harvey  25:09  
We're good at telling managers not to do that we're not so good at telling ourselves not to do that in return, even when it's sometimes seem so simple. Like, I just have a simple scheduling requests, I want the flexibility to work from home one day a week. Why is that so difficult? Well, because you're one of a whole bunch of other variables at play for wherever your manager isn't. It's simple to you, but it might be very complicated to them.

Frank Butler  25:32  
And exactly. And remember, if you're the manager, or senior manager over these managers, imagine they're going through this. So if you have a manager who is struggling, because they believe that all their employees should be hands on deck five days a week, and you've got other managers who are reporting, don't be like, Okay, we got to treat it all the same, like, everybody's gonna be five days, no, you know, maybe there's some intervention you can do, maybe there's something that he talked to that manager be like, it's okay, if they go home for a couple of days a week is not going to be something that you're losing control over, you know, trying to understand and help them right to help train them help ups in the word is here that they're using the Gallup poll for examples, upskill your managers through their strengths, right? Their strength was, they want people to be on site and control. Maybe that's not the skill that you need, maybe you need to help them develop a strength of being okay, with some remote work, you know, some people working remote.

Paul Harvey  26:25  
You can help them deal with the ripple effects of your request. So I want the flexibility to work from home, say, on Fridays, what are the challenges that will impose for your manager? And how can you help them offset those challenges. So you know, no one likes being given a, someone else's problem to sit here solve it. So if you're able to present your request along with, and here's how I can, you know, make it feasible for you, you'll probably be more successful and a manager anywhere near the level levels of stress and burnout that we're talking about would probably greatly appreciate that

Frank Butler  27:00  
It's amazing, I guarantee you, they would. So that's a very good point, let's go with that. At the end of the day, as an employee, just recognize your manager might be going through some stuff, be patient with them. If you're a manager, over the managers, senior leadership, provide communication be clear, help these managers get acclimated to the reality of what they're dealing with, right, provide them with just the ability to communicate, right just to have a conversation with you. And you know, here's another thing too, if there's a if you do have a manager who's really good, but they want their employees on five days a week, and their employees are not happy about it, maybe you can find employees that want to be in the office five days a week and just kind of reshuffle who is reporting to whom, just simply so that way, the teams that are getting what they want, are getting what they they want to be the most effective, right? It's your job to get the most out of your people. And a large part of that is keeping them happy with how their work is going

Paul Harvey  27:56  
Two-way street. And I think we we don't acknowledge the right hand lane as often as we should we treat it like it's a one way street. And like any relationship, inside or outside of work, it takes two to tango. So assuming you have a manager that allows you to view yourselves as part of a team together, especially right now, a lot of managers are out there, building the airplane while they're trying to fly it. You're able to be supportive and offer suggestions that they legitimately might not have thought of, because no one's done this stuff before. Makes you look good, but also helps you get the outcomes you want and makes the manager's job just a little bit easier. Goodbye.

Frank Butler  28:32  
Agreed. And with that,

Paul Harvey  28:35  
I think that's it,

Frank Butler  28:35  
I think so, I think that's it.

Paul Harvey  28:37  
Come work for the Busyness Paradox.

Frank Butler  28:39  
Thank you, everybody. And just as a quick aside, this is now over one year of Busyness Paradox. So yay

Paul Harvey  28:45  
Happy anniversary

Frank Butler  28:46  
Happy anniversary to us

Paul Harvey  28:47  
To the Busyness Paradox. We missed it by like in true male fashion. We missed it by…what is it, 11 days, but yeah, we've been around for a year. We plan to be around for a bunch more.

Frank Butler  28:59  
We're taking over the world. We're gonna be the next Joe Rogan podcast but for workplaces I guess

Paul Harvey  29:04  
Stretch goals.

Frank Butler  29:05  
Yeah, there you go. That is our stretch goal.

Paul Harvey  29:08  
All right, folks. Good day. 

Frank Butler  29:10  
Have a great one.

Paul Harvey  29:12  
The Busyness Paradox is distributed by Paul Harvey and Frank Butler. Our theme music is adapted from its business time by Jemaine Clements and Bret McKenzie. Our production manager is Justin Wuntaek. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and we'd love to hear from you. Please send any questions, comments or ideas for future episode topics to input@busynessparadox.com, or find us on Twitter. Also, be sure to visit our website, busynessparadox.com to read our blog posts and for links to the articles and other resources mentioned in today's show. Finally, please take a moment to rate and follow or subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts. Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google podcasts, or wherever the heck you get your podcasts.