Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Brew. I am your host, Bill Brewster. This episode features the one and only Consuelo Mac. I have gone to Consuelo's Wealchtrack program for a number of years for weekly investment content. I love what she does. Her mission to educate investors and give them access to investors is something that resonates with me and that I hope to do as good of a job over time as she has done. And I asked her to come on the program.
She said yes. And I'm thrilled to bring this interview to you. One interesting tidbit that I learned in preparing for this program was Consuelo Show does not have funding, so she puts it together. So we get into that a little bit about how she gets her sponsorships and how she goes about her business. I think this a really cool conversation about her career and I am happy and honored to be able to bring you a conversation with the one and only Consuela Mac.
I hope you enjoy. As always, nothing in the show is financial advice. Please consult an investment advisor before making investment decisions. Everything in the show is for entertainment purposes and educational purposes and do your own due diligence. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Brew. I am very excited to be talking to the one and only Consuelo Mac. I, I, I am honored to be on this side of the mic and interviewing you.
So thank you for saying yes. No, I'm delighted to be here. You you did a terrific interview with a good friend of mine. Had a Nadler recently, a mountain Nadler, and she's APR person that I've been dealing with for years and has become a good friend. And anyone that had a recommends that I talk to I do. But anyway, so it was really fun. You had a great discussion with Heda. I learned a lot. Heda's one-of-a-kind, yeah. And I just, yeah, go ahead,
sorry. No, she said today, I hope I'm not leaking confidential info, but she said that she had like an affinity for me and I said that I had one for her as well. And she said well hopefully you're not afraid of me. And I said a little, but it's out of respect. Totally out of respect, right? Do do not fear head out. But she has all of our best interests at heart. She's she's really one-of-a-kind.
And I also, you know, listen to your, that podcast that you did with Matthew Sweeney, which I thought was fascinating. Oh, thank you. Right. I mean, just about the, the issues that one has as value
investors. Like, I honestly felt like I was listening in on a, on a guy's luncheon, you know, but just a conversation that, that you would have with a close friend about all the things that you're thinking about, the things you don't understand and investing in the markets and, and you know, what works for you, what doesn't? It was really a neat conversation. I I really appreciated it. Well, this will be a a conversation, hopefully a different kind of luncheon.
That's that's the goal of the podcast. So I'm glad that that's how you felt. If if you felt that way, I'm doing my job. Yeah, you are. It's been a joy. Has it? Yeah, yeah, I like it. I mean, you know more than I do about the back end of it, but you know, it's, it's been a nice learning experience. I came here having some ideas. I mean, I, I read, you know, Buffett Munger and thought I knew everything about the world. And the more I learned, the more I realized I didn't know
anything. And, and now I'm trying to learn more, you know? Join the club. The more I know, the more I realized that I don't know. And it's a constant, you know, learning curve. And that's what makes this business so exciting because you never stop learning. Yeah, that's right. Well, how did you get into the business for those that don't know? Right. So I, I graduated, I, I had a liberal arts degree from a college called Sarah Lawrence College, which is still very
much in existence. It was just turning Coed at the time. So I had, you know, nary a math course or economics course, nothing in finance at all. And when I graduated from Sarah Lawrence with a, a very liberal liberal arts education, I really wanted to make it in, in the man's world. I realized that there was a huge void in my education, which was about business. And my wonderful parents had supported me through college. And I decided it was time for me to be financially independent.
And where could I go where I could be trained and paid at the same time. And the two options that came to my mind through talking with various friends with was in banking head training programs and they paid you as, as did the brokerage industry. And so one of my first interviews was at Merrill Lynch and they needed to hire women. At the time, it was in the 1970s, some significant legislation had just been passed by Congress and they were under
pressure to hire women. And also in the 1970s, the I was at 600, the Wall Street had been decimated. And they also needed bodies. So Merrill Lynch was kind enough to offer me a job as a, you know, as a, as a broker. I mean, they called us account executives. That's kind of a joke at the time for me, certainly. But that's how it got started. What a good time to enter. In retrospect, Yeah, Little different than now.
Wouldn't have known it at the time, Yeah, Would not have known that it was a good time to enter at the time. I mean, there were lots of empty desks in the office. I was working in the garment district. The people that the the brokers who were left there were real
seasoned veterans. They had actually survived what was going on with the market at the time and they could not have been nicer or kinder to me. I wonder if in a way that was a real blessing because you had the people teaching you that had the most skill, right? Those that were able to to survive, Absolutely. What I mean, you said they that they couldn't have been nicer to you, but what was that like? I mean, how many women were in your class?
Well, in my, in my actual training class, I think that there were like three of us and I was the only one that went to this office in the garment district. And it was an amazing experience because we were given I think 40 called call cards a day to go through. So I was calling. They were all men who were, you know, obviously had sent in for information. And so I was, you know, calling all these guys who were, again, you know, that they were seasoned investors themselves.
And it was a daunting and humbling and I realized how little I knew. And so therefore, when people ask me questions, I, the training program was great, but I, there was a lot that I needed to learn. And that was part of the experience as well at the, these, the guys at, at 1515 Broadway were terrific to me and really tried to help me as much as I could. But quite honestly, Bill, I realized like right from the get code, I am not equipped, you know, to do this.
And number one in my background. And so I, I moved quickly on to, to work for some other really terrific firms. I ended up working at Mitchell Hutchins, which was the number one research firm in the street because I realized I really needed to know a lot more. I just couldn't make cold calls. And that was a wonderful experience as well.
And that's how I, I got into journalism by recognizing that if I, you know, really wasn't happy at the number one research firm on Wall Street who were also terrific to me that that I needed to to go in a different direction. And that's how I got into journalism. I took some courses at the New School at night, and one of them was a broadcast journalism course. And I met a woman who to to this day is one of my closest friends, a fellow classmate at the time.
And she was working for a, a very small station in West Orange, NJ, which was about 20 minutes outside of New York City. And they needed someone to do market commentary at night because at that time, in order to get that broadcast license, you had to cover news in those days. And so I would go out, I'd work during the day at Mitchell Hutchins, drive out at night to West Orange, NJ and do market commentary for two or three minutes a night. And that turned into a full time
job. But I I found my calling. Yeah. Circling back to something that you said, you said that you didn't have the background or brokerage wasn't for you. Do you think that was it? Was it a function of personality type or do you think that it was you, you sort of weren't trained at the time, you just didn't enjoy doing? It, no, that's a good question. I, I wasn't trained at the time because the, the, the sales course then I remember we might have had 20 products.
And now at Merrill, if you go through a training program, I'm assuming there were like, you know, 300 products. I mean, it was just it was it was, it was a sales, you know, course and on also the markets were going against us at the time. And you know, I just wasn't set up to losing money for clients. And so, you know, I literally would go home and cry at night and talk to my husband about, you know, I can't believe that I sold this stock and it was going
down. Whereas every everybody you know else in the at in the office, that's just kind of the name of the game and our clients actually understood it as well, But I just wasn't psychologically equipped for losing people money. Did you take it personally? Yes, I felt it was a personal failure. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I couldn't divorce myself from the advice that this is what Merrill Lynch is recommending and therefore it's OK for you to recommend it and you don't own any of it.
And I just, that was not I, I couldn't deal with that. I mean the expectation is if, if to your point, if Merrill is saying that it, it is OK you are only the face that is relaying Merrill's information. Right. And selling their products. I think you time, yeah. I think you and I have a similar. I'm not OK with that. If if it goes wrong I would I would own it personally. It's part of why I have no interest in ever really running money. I I much prefer doing this right.
Unfortunately, one is more lucrative than the other, but. Yes, when I left Merrill Lynch even or Mitchell Hutchins, yeah, there it was. I took a huge, enormous pay cut. But, you know, these, these psychological rewards were, you know, were more than made-up for the loss in income at that time. So when you were driving out, I, I mean a young Consuelo, you're working during the day and you get your two to three minutes
on, on local news at night. Obviously you're retired, but you must have been very excited about about making that drive, right? Yeah, it was a rush. It really was. And, and I loved it because the one thing that the thing that I really enjoyed when I was at Mitchell Hutchins and again, I, you know, I, there's this not a, it's not a myth, but there is a perception on Wall Street that that women are not welcome. That has certainly been the case for many women that I know on Wall Street.
It is, you know, it's been very tough for them to break into for, for some reason, in my limited experience on Wall Street, people really took care of me and, and tried to educate me. They, they really cared. I think I just have always met, you know, the the top, the best, highest integrity people on Wall Street. And there are a lot of them that are very professional doing their jobs and they want to see younger people succeed. I was very fortunate in that respect.
You know, someone may say to you that you attract those kind of people because that's who you are. Right. Possible. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm a really fun person. Probable. I bet. I bet people saw something in you that they said I want to help this person, that that's my my bet. I, I think you're absolutely right. I was, you know, very fortunate to have that experience. So what was your your early journalism? You're driving out to the local news? Where, when did you say, you
know what? I'm jumping full-fledged into this journalism thing. And then how did you get yourself into your first gig doing that? So they made me a job offer basically to do a show, a Daily Show. And that's, that's how that happened. And, and I was going to say that, you know, I mean, I've, I've done a lot of mentoring over my career. And one of the things is that people say, you know, I didn't wish I hadn't wasted time on, you know, on Wall Street or whatever that I was not meant to
be there. And, and, you know, there was so much that I, you can learn from a job that you're not enjoying as well. Number one, you fight, figure out what you don't enjoy about the job you're doing, and then you figure out what you do enjoy about the job that you're doing. And being at at Merrill Lynch and on Wall Street was really great training for, you know, calling people who don't necessarily want to talk to you right in journalism, being persistent. It was another quality that I
learned. And also when I was at Mitchell Hutchins, Mitchell Hutchins was a fabulous place to work because they had access to research from all the other firms on Wall Street at at the time. And, you know, you only got your own research from your firm and it was limited at that. It as a retail broker, you got a certain level of research and as an institutional broker you got much more. At Mitchell Hutchins, I was working for their wealth
management division. We got access to everything and we had consultants like Henry Kissinger, we had climatologists at that time. We had, you know, demographers. So, and I'm one of them was to, to go to the, the meetings with all of these experts and then put together a synthesis for our clients to, to explain what the, the macro environment was. And, and then start, you know, taking it down to then, you know, well, what does this mean for certain industries?
What does this mean for certain companies? And, you know, taking it all the way down to the micro level. And that's what I found out, I really enjoyed. And that's why I decided I, I think I would, you know, do well in, in journalism. It's very apparent as you're saying, that I'm reminded of your last two-part conversation with, I believe it was Ed Hyman, right?
Yeah. You know, and, and one of the things he said is he, he mentioned that I don't know if he said it was early in his career, if it's now, but it was something about demographics. And he said, Like I, I've focused on that and other people maybe haven't as much as an economist. Right. And they did. They weren't at the time it was, you know, total outlier. Like why would you be interested in demographics? And it turns out it's really
important. And Ed Hyman, as a matter of fact, when we launched Wealthtrack in July of 2005, he was one of our first guests. Oh yeah, Long. Time. Yeah, So what was the show like? I'm sorry to ask you so many about, but I'm curious about the path to Wealthtrack. So which show? The first show that you did the The Daily Show. Oh, right. So, so I did well #1 on this is on channel 68 in New Jersey, I was doing a Daily Show.
It was, it was live TV. It would, you know, we interviewed everybody you can imagine because we needed to get people on the air and it was seat of the pants and it was it was trialed by fire, no question about it. And then I got and so that was really interesting and luckily very few people were watching so. Making mistakes in in quiet, right? Yeah. And, and I got to know a lot of people on, on Wall Street because no one except for Lou Rukaiser was doing business journalism at the time.
And so that was a really great launching pad. I, I don't think such a launching pad exists now, except it does on online. People can, you know, can create their own persona and everything else online. If you get views, you can really make a career out of it, which is very cool. And but anyway, so that that was the first show and then then I went on to a venture capital backed program that was on ESPN. It was a Daily Show called Business Times, which was the the 1st morning business show
that was on cable. And then and that was for two years. And that was another pretty amazing experience. But it turned out that that we couldn't get the advertisers to sponsor a business show on ESPN, even though that's where male viewers were, that that was the concept at the time. And then Disney happened to see me on doing business times and we pitched Disney.
They had a, they had just started their independent production company, Buena Vista, and we pitched the person who got in touch with me an idea of doing a daily business program, which I would be the sole anchor of on network television. And that was Today's business. And and that's, you know what we did. We did a, a program that was a, it was a daily half hour morning program syndicated on mostly CBS affiliates, but also ABC and NBC.
And it was before, like the Today show, for instance, or before Good Morning America. And that was a really great experience as well. Did you have pieces? Sorry. It was. It was big time. No, that was big time. Yeah, did did you have a team that went with you everywhere or was it were you like how did the you said I we pitched Disney, right? Did you have like a group that you said we're all going or was it? I'm Consuelo and I'd like to do this show and I think it'll
work. Like, how did that? How did you make that happen and who helped you make? That actually, no, that's a really good question because since today's business, I have had a team that's that's moved with me. But before that I didn't because they were, they were really, you know, small, tiny programs. I'm just trying to remember how it happened is that I got together with two men, a guy named Ron Tandelia, who was the youngest producer on the network news program on television.
He was Eyewitness News. He was a pioneer and he liked what I was doing. And then we had a, a, a post production guy producer out in, in LA and the three of us got together and then and we pitched Disney. That's how that happened. And you know, it's all of you know, it's just dumb luck. It's what, how a lot of this these opportunities have come up. It has not been strategic at all, Bill. I wish I had been more strategic, but we, we weren't. It just, you know, we just kind of lucked out.
Well, you were persistent, right? So persistence can create its own lock. Yeah. And the, and the markets are endlessly fascinating. And more and more people were doing, you know, their own investing. And so it, it was a great time to be in the market. And also the great bull market in bonds and stocks basically started in 1982. So the last, you know, decades have been pretty good times to be an an investor. Yeah, yeah, that is that is definitely true.
What was the impetus to start Wealthtrack? Heda told me. I didn't realize that that Wealthtrack is your creation and you run the business side of all that. Is that correct? Do I have this? Wrong. God help us. Luckily, I have a fabulous senior producer and have had some terrific senior producers to run the business side of it. I'm mostly content, but you know, I, we do our own fundraising.
So the, the story between I'm and I'm not going to, I'm not going to skip right to Wealthtrack because in between today's business and Wealthtrack was an incredibly important time in my career as a financial journalist. And that is that I I worked for the Wall Street Journal and I did their weekly television program, the Wall Street Journal Report when they were doing that.
And that was huge for me because suddenly instead of being with these, you know, small independent productions, I was working for the Journal. And you know, who's raising debtra is to cover a business and finance. And that was a really fabulous experience. And that's really where I built the team that has then, you know, some of them have gone on with me to, to Wealthtrack.
But, you know, there's just no other organization as far as that I've ever worked for, like the Wall Street Journal. Little bit easier for to get people on the phone when you're at the Journal as opposed to Channel 68 or something like that, right? Yes, it was, yeah, a lot easier.
And, and also we were able to, you know, talk to the reporters and, and also I, I was the only actually journalist at the Wall Street Journal that had access to both the, The Newsroom, which is completely separate from the editorial page, which is one of the things that I love about the Wall Street Journal. You really get 2 newspapers in one.
There is, there is no overlap. And I think this is so important to recognize where whereas in many other publications the editorial bent bleeds into the reporting staff. It does not at the Wall Street Journal at all. And, and so, but I was able to have access to the editorial page because Bob Bartley was the editorial page, head of the editorial page at the time, liked me, liked what I was doing and said, you know, why don't you attend some of our meetings
and, and which was just great. And so that I got access to like Margaret Thatcher, for instance, and, and, you know, Helmut Kohl. And so, you know, these, you know, major world figures would come in and I would go to meetings with them and Bob and others on the editorial page would say, you know, do you want us to try to have give you access for an interview? And, and sometimes they'd say yes and sometimes they'd say no. And Margaret Thatcher said yes. And that was like a once in a
lifetime experience. Yeah, that's amazing. So what what? I mean, what was that like? How nervous were you getting in going into that interview? A wreck. I was a total wreck. I still get very nervous in interviews. I know, but Margaret Thatcher? Is slightly nervous at this interview but but Margaret Thatcher was daunting because she did not suffer fools gladly and you really had to know what
you're talking about. And quite honestly, I still feel to this day that I was not up to the task, but it was just awe inspiring because she had such a clear vision and of, of what she wanted to do as the Prime Minister of the UK. And, and her alliance with the United States, with Ronald Reagan. And they, they moved the world.
Without them, their, you know, Berlin Wall wouldn't have fallen or they wouldn't have, you know, been the dissipation of the Soviet Union. I mean, she really made a huge difference and in bringing the UK economy back. So that was a tremendous privilege for me to interview Margaret Thatcher, one of the highlights of my career.
When you were at that time right around, let's call it 81 to 85, like throughout that, did you like, could you feel a change going on in in the markets and and like was it apparent that a bull market was starting? The reason I ask, you know, is I, I was just listening to the like I referenced earlier, right, Ed Heidman saying it could be the roaring twenty 20s, it could be the 30s. Like I'm I'm curious to know. Right. And that's actually Ed Yardeni. I'm. Sorry, I'm sorry.
Ed Yardeni. You said that. That's OK. Apologize. No, not at all. But but Ed Yard, Ed Yardeni is the one who said that this could be the Roaring 20s. Yeah, again, the Twenty 20s. Yeah. And and I'm just kind of curious, like when, when the bull market of the secular bull started in the 80s, could you feel it or, or did people not? No. Yeah, no, as a matter of fact, I had Jim Grant on for the 40th anniversary of Grant's interest rate observer.
And he noted, you know, and this is what I love about my guess is that they're very honest about what they've missed. And so, you know, he said like, you know, 198182. Did I have any idea that this was the start of the greatest bull market in, you know, in in bond history? And no, you didn't feel it at all. It was. It was. You know who knew? Yeah. Well, you know, it's, it's so interesting because I think, yeah, I, I don't know, I don't know where we are now, right.
So, so it's interesting to read history and, and, and in in retrospect, it's like, well, of course, you know, interest rates were that high and markets had kind of gone nowhere for a while. Of course that would be the bull, but that it's when you're. Living it, it's not so easy. No, not at all The you know, the remember the 87 market crash and I, I can remember I think it was 1984 that Alan Greenspan, you know, raised interest rates and I was on vacation.
I kind of went, Helen, what are you doing? The market, you know, did, did not do well at that time. It's fits and starts, but you know, if you look at the history of the market, it goes up, you know, much more than it goes down. But you know, behavioral economics will tell you that, you know, that you feel your losses twice as much as you feel your gains. And so you know in the meantime, all of us are focused on kind of the short term machinations of the market and and it's can be
very upsetting. You have access to to some of the smartest minds. Do you feel more in tune with the market because you get to talk to people that you get to talk to or do you not feel as in tune like or or somewhere in between? That's an interesting question because I've, I've, in preparation for this interview, I've been thinking about, you know, what have I learned?
And one of the things is it's not so much, and one of the reasons that I started Wealthtrack is it's the great investors don't focus on what's going on in the market. They focus on what's going on with individual companies.
It's as simple as that. And so, you know, it's, there's all the noise of the markets, which is one of the reasons that I, you know, left CNBC to, to start Wealthtrack is that that, you know, if, if you have to cover the markets on a daily basis, the markets become the story.
And, and I felt that I needed to step away from the markets and that for individual investors that it's, and also for, I, I think quite honestly, for most active investors that, that you have to focus on, on longer term wealth building in companies. And so they, you know, long term diversified investing in depth interviews about with great investors about long term diversified investing is kind of is, is, has, is now our signature on wealth track and that's what sets us apart.
But so, no, I, I don't, you know, they, everybody pays attention to the markets, but that's not what is driving their investment decisions. Yeah, You know what I love about Wealthtrack? I mean, other than listening to you interview people, which is awesome, but like you've now been doing it for so long that like I can listen. We were, we were talking about Bruce Berkowitz, who I know that
you brought some lessons from. So I can listen to him pitch Sears on your program and listen to that pitch. And now I can listen to the recent interview that you did when he's talking about Saint Joe and controlling the outcome and talking about how Freddie and Fannie changed his perception of the legal rights regulators country. Yeah. And and Enterprise Products. He says, you know, 7 or 8% isn't so bad if you just do that
forever. It's kind of interesting to be able to go and watch your interactions with different
investors over time. Well, that, you know, I think Bruce Berkowitz is probably one of the most fascinating guests that I've had along over the years and that's been a well track exclusive and he hasn't come on too often, but Manhattan Adler represents him as you know, and and you know, it was a time to talk and we've been and so he felt he he really was willing to talk about what's been happening with the Fairholme fund. And you know, the Fairholme fund
has a phenomenal track record. You just had to stick with it. So I, you know, I'm just, I'm just looking, it's, you know, 10% annual has returned since its 1999 inception and versus the S&P 6% returns. This was a, a couple of months
ago. But, and, and that's another, you know, one of the lessons that I've learned is that if, if you're going to invest with an active manager that that you've chosen because, you know, you believe in their discipline, you believe in their culture, you believe in what they're doing it which it's a good fit for your portfolio, then you've got to stick with them because you can't time an active manager.
And Bruce Berkowitz is a a case in point, as is Bill Miller, incidentally, is a case in point is, you know, another great investor that, you know, had setbacks. Well, duh. I mean, every, every great investor has setbacks where they're underperforming the market and and they make mistakes and they learn from those mistakes. But you know, in general the great investors have terrific long term track records.
You just got to stick with them. Yeah, and, and as an investor, it I have found it's hard to separate, you know, when when stocks are going against you or me, I'll just personalize it. You know, it's hard not to let's say I hired Bruce and I'm watching Sears happen and, and some of the other stocks aren't going our way. I it's hard to not like it's hard to. That's when you find out, can you actually be married to the person, right? It's like when the trust is truly tested, can you stick?
It's all it's easy when things are going well and that's that's the key, right? That's what separates. That's why so few investors tend to actually realize the returns of the underlying securities that. That they own. There's this huge underperformance gap that we've covered a lot on well truck over
the years. The morning starts done, you know, research on I think as is the investment company institute, but you know the investor, individual investor in a in an individual fund, you know way underperforms the fund itself. Why do you think that is? I, I, I have a theory that it's probably that they're over allocated, so that kind of a drawdown really hurts them more
than everybody should. I, I think right, no, no, I, I, I, I think it is because thinking fast and slow, Daniel Kahneman's wonderful book, of course, he just died the Nobel Prize winner. And you know his, his point is that human beings are not rational and we're, we're very biased and, and we think that short term results are going to last and therefore we make, we make really stupid investment
decisions. So it's it, it is that the factor that losses are, you know, twice as painful at least as as gains are. Yeah, yes, there's a different but similar thought that I've read and and I just want to put it out there. It's negative thinking is almost 100% effective, right I think. That's kind of interesting. I think it's kind of. Interesting, and it's all a lot brings. Truth to it.
And it's infective too. It's a whole lot easier to get your brain to go negative than it is to get positive. And and I right, it rhymes with investing. Not the same. But, well, not only that, I mean, another thought that some of my guests have had as well is that you get a lot more attention if you're negative, too. You know, the press loves to talk to people who are negative. You know, who wants a positive story? So it's.
Yeah. Yeah, so how did, how have you maintained your integrity and gone about your business and the way that you have without chasing, you know, macro doomers that that would help probably your ratings. But I, I love tuning into your show 'cause I, I truly know that I'm I'm gonna get a conversation that's rational and topical. And how do you avoid that temptation to chase the ratings? Right. Well, I'm on public television, PBS, so they don't pay a lot of attention to ratings.
At least they haven't with us. We're a niche program that makes a huge difference. I couldn't do this on network television, no question about it. And, and because we're an educational program, you know, we're really trying to educate our our audience about how to be good investors and make, you know, good financial decisions. So that's why I don't have to chase that. But I have to admit it was, you know, the people who were, you know, concerned leading up certainly to the to the.com
bubble. And as, as you know, I mean, you know, greats like Julian Robertson said, I don't understand this business anymore. So I'm I'm going to get out of the business.
And, you know, we, we reached that point where the exhaustion of fighting the dot a bubble, it's, it was really hard to have people on. I mean, Dave Rosenberg talked about that, who used to, you know, was the chief economist at Merrill Lynch for a while now has Rosenberg research out of Canada. And you know, he was saying Merrill Lynch forbade him from using the word bear market
because it was a bull market. And he, it's, it's really hard to withstand the, the pressure of any sort of a bull market or, or an enduring bear market. So I've, I've certainly has been as susceptible as anyone to that, where it's hard to have people, you know, the broken clock is right twice a day. It's hard to have people who have been very bearish when
you're in a bull market. Yeah, I, I guess what I was thinking is, is you could very easily do a lot of macro podcasts and, or, or interviews or whatever. And, and you, you don't and, and I really respect how you go about it. And I am going to take your PBS comment as you've set yourself up in a structurally advantage situation, much like a fund manager that maybe has permanent capital because, you know, I don't know, I care about how many people listen to this, right.
But, but there's something about I don't want to go down that route. That route seems very unfulfilling chasing the the views and the next who can be scarier type interviews. I don't. I don't like that, but that's what gets the clicks. Right, except, you know, I just I'm not I wouldn't be good at
that. So that's another thing, you know, I wanted and and I'm I learn from every program that I do. I mean, honestly, when I, you know, interview my guest that we, you know, handpick that have tremendous track records that are known for their integrity, that are respected by their peers that are rated by independent agencies like Morningstar. Those are the guests that we have on. And I find them fascinating because they, they love what they're doing. Bill, you know, you've said this
on your podcast. They're, they're constantly challenging themselves and, you know, they have a tremendous, they have a discipline, they stick to it. And I, I think they have intellectual integrity and, and it's, it's hard, you know, those are fewer, far and fewer between now because of the passive, the move to passive investing is, is the default option now. And so it's, it's very, you know, it's hard to be an active manager these days.
And yet I think that it, it can be still incredibly rewarding because fewer and fewer people are doing it, you know, and you're competing against the indexes and you're also competing against all the quants and the, the machines that seem to have done very well. But you know, when's that gonna blow up or when, when will their, their performance become average? Because everyone's doing it.
Yeah, I don't know. I, I was having a conversation with an RAA yesterday and he's a, a go getter type and I, I enjoyed talking to him very much. But one thing that he said is he said, well, public markets investing is, is really pretty easy. You just need to put your, your clients in the SMP because that's what clients are gonna care about anyway. So you do the SMP with some structured notes and that kind of provides you with some downside protection and yadda,
yadda. And I was like, I don't know about this, but I do. I do believe that a lot of people are thinking that way and it's an interesting guide. Right, because you know, it's easy. Well, it's just the market. It's easy to defend yourself. It's just the market versus, well, why did you choose that particular money manager? And it is, it's the default option. It's it's, it works for most
people, I think. And, but I think there's still tremendous room for top active managers and, and they can protect you in down markets, whereas if you're in an index fund, you have no protection and you're investing in everything regardless of what the quality is. So I mean, I'm, I'm still a huge believer in active management and I'd certainly easier for me to interview an active manager than it is to interview an index. That would be a tough one that has a little something to do
with it too. That's on the come Consuelo. Microsoft just released those faces that can talk, so. Yeah, believe me, I'm easily replaceable. I know. No question. I don't know about that, but but the go ahead. No, no, no, please. Well, the other fun thing is that, you know, passive indexes are not passive at all. So we did a really fun interview with Jerry O'Reilly, who is the portfolio manager of the world's largest index fund, which is the
largest mutual fund. I'm sorry, it's the the Vanguard, you know, all market mutual fund. And I probably got the exact name wrong because he is managing several. But at any rate, so Jerry O'Reilly is on the trading floor every day, and they're constantly reconstituting the S&P 500 and the S&P 1500, and it is an active manager's job. And so, you know, who are we kidding? There's still a lot going on in these passive indexes that aren't so passive.
Yeah, it's, it's going to be very interesting. I did pull up because I, I've been on this ETF journey and I reread Joel Greenblatt's, what is it? He calls it? It's still the big secret for the small investor because no one read it. But you know, like the, the VTV, that's a pretty interesting index. I, I kinda, I can get my head around that one for the long term, right? Like the S&P with a value tilt. That makes sense to me, but I
don't, I don't know. I just have this nagging feeling, and maybe it's from living through the GFC, that when everybody's on one side of the boat, sometimes things go really wrong. No, and that's where you need, you know, diversification in one of the one of our guests, a guy named Peter Bernstein, who wrote against the gods, the remarkable story of risk, which is a wonderful book. You know, it said, I mean two things to me that have stuck with me. One, the future is unknowable.
Just repeat that the future is unknowable. The future is unknowable. Peter always said that which is true. No one has a, a, an accurate crystal ball. And, and I'm just trying to think what and the other one was the other quote that Peter Bernstein said on Wealthtrack, which is really terrific, is that you're not truly diversified unless you own something that you are uncomfortable with.
And So what you're talking about as being on, if everybody is on one side of the boat, you're not diversified, you're not fully diversified and and you have to own things that are. That you're uncomfortable with and at one point when gold was going nowhere and Peter, you know, we were talking about gold being something that you're uncomfortable with as a basically an insurance policy against the unthinkable.
And. And there are through you know, throughout different market periods, there are times when you know small cap value for instances goes through periods of being very unpopular emerging markets right now for. Small cap value too the last 10 years has not been kind. No, it has not been. And yet Chuck Royce has been one of my exclusive Wealthtrack guests over the years who just celebrated his 50th anniversary at the, you know, Pennsylvania mutual fund. And and his track record long
term is also very good. And he's, you know, he's Chuck and Royce associates. They are small cap managers. That's all we're going to do. And if you want to be diversified into small cap, then Royce is is a place that you know that they're not gonna deviate and they will find value in the small cap space because there is value there. Yeah, yeah. That, that I've watched. I mean, they're sort of my proxy for AUM flowing out of small caps. And it's, it's been interesting
to watch. It's not because of performance, I don't think. I think it's just because you know, it's hard to look at it at A at an asset class that is not performing relative to asset classes that are and not get that. FOMO, right? Absolutely. The more things change and stay. The same. No, they do. And it's, and again, listening to your podcast with, with Matthew Sweeney is what's very difficult to be a value investor
anyhow. And because you're looking at companies that are unpopular or that are unrecognized and you are going against the flow. And I remember a couple of Jean Marie of a yard who was at first Eagle ran the first Eagle fund and, and Matt McLennan, who took over for him in the midst of the financial crisis in 2008. So Matt has been a, a, you know, a regular guest on Wealthtrack as well.
And, you know, they are, they just kind of have to ignore what, what the markets are telling them as far as what's really popular and just keep looking for those, you know, resilient companies that are going to compound over the years and that are financially strong. You know that you're not going to, you know, lose money, the permanent impairment of capital, which is a mortal sin. If you're a money manager.
And, and you know, they're, you can rely on them to continue to do the kind of value investing that they've been doing for years. But it, it's, it's not easy. It takes a really strong stomach. Yeah. And to your point, sticking with somebody. Right, Right. Yeah, right. I I don't think I asked you this, but but it's on my mind. You had mentioned that you vet the guests. What does it look like? What does the Consuela Mac vetting process look like?
When people are pinging you to get onto Wealthtrack, what are some of your filters? Well, they have to have a track record and it's really at least 20 years. So I, I want to see how they've done through several market cycles, word of mouth. So you know, who do you pay attention to? You know, who do you listen to Bill? Who when a, when a, a shareholder letter comes out, you know, what are you reading?
So it's peer-to-peer respect. It's, you know, recognition of, as I said, independent resources, independent evaluators and, and also what is there, we have a no jerks rule on Wealthtrack is that I know I've interviewed before Wealthtrack, which is now we're in our 20th season, going into our 20th season, you know, I've, I've had to interview a lot of different people that I had no control over the booking of and
life's too short. So I, I want to interview people that I like and that I respect and, and are known for their integrity. Integrity is really important and the culture of a firm is really important because there, there were so many changes going on in, in Wall Street firms and also in the mutual fund industry, 'cause I'm, I'm dealing with products that that individual investors can invest
with. And so, you know, you will see, you know, funds that aren't doing well retired or merged into another fund or not necessarily a bad thing, but, but, or a money manager that at one point, you know, said that they were in this specialty and now suddenly they've changed, you know, now they've become a growth fund. And so those are really important to me the, the culture, because any of us individual investors, we have a,
a, a long investing life. If you're starting in your 20s, you know, we're talking about 60 or 70 years of investing. So I you want to be with firms that are that you can trust that are going to be around and that are, are going to continue to to do what you're they're best at. So in integrity and the culture of the firms that I interviewed are really important.
And I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but what I'm hearing when you're talking is that you seem very passionate about the individual investor and I mean certainly in will track, it's apparent that you are doing a service like where did that come from in you? Why do you think that's something that drives you, assuming I'm right?
Right. I think probably it comes from my family and terrific parents and wonderful brother, great grandparents who really felt how important it was to be honest with individuals and to be as helpful as you can, a real public service orientation. So that really is what motivates me. It's this is where I'm doing a public service on public television. Yeah, I like it. That's how I tried to treat this
podcast. I, I've, I've said to myself, I, I wanted something that I wanted to build something that if I were kind of giving to my son, right, or to my kids, like what, what would I say? Listen to this and then figure out how you think of the world. I don't care if you agree with me. I don't care if you agree with any particular guest. I care about you listening to people's perspectives and figuring out what resonates with
you. And that's what I'm trying to build, which is it's, it's fulfilling, right? It is definitely. Yeah. How has journalism changed since you started? Has it always kind of been after like the story of the day? Is that is it more that? Way now tremendously as have the markets. I mean there are so many more options and journalism, as you said, it's you know, it's turned into clicks and attracting clicks. So there's, there is a, there's a lot of unserious journalism
out there. Certainly, you know, on the Internet, no question about that. And it's very competitive. And you have to recognize that people are shorter attention spans. I mean, if you're, if you're really in this to have a profitable business, which I'm not because at any rate. We have things in common. Yeah, we should be a not-for-profit, but we're not. But at any rate, so journalism
has changed tremendously. And that's why it's so important to have the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times. I mean, I think editors are really important because pressure now is to deliver the information first, regardless of whether it's right or not. And that's really dangerous. And so I, I think that there is a, a, a big gap growing between people who are, who really are journalists and do their homework and, and check and double check because that takes
time. And the rest of the, I mean, a lot of podcasters and I'm not putting them down, but people who are just interested in hearing their own opinions. As I opine, here I am. That's not true. You're on my show. That's different. Yeah, I think so. I think there's a huge divide between really good journalism and just kind of sensational opinions. Yeah. And so that's that's been a, a big, big change and the markets
have changed tremendously. I mean, they're much more democratic than they've ever been. I mean, I can, you know, I have a, one of our guests is a guy named Bill Wilby who used to run the Oppenheimer World Fund. That was the number one global fund when he was running it many years ago for the 12 years that he ran it.
And, and you know, Bill was saying that that he's basically unplugged from research from all of the like Bloomberg and, and I don't want to, you know, disparage Bloomberg because they're phenomenal. They were wonderful service. But he said, you know, I can just go online now and on Google and there are just a few things that I need to subscribe to in order to run my own retirement portfolio. And so that's a huge change as well.
And of course, the, you know, deregulation since I have been in the business since the 70s, I mean, commissions were deregulated and interest rates were deregulated. And there's just been a tremendous explosion of the financial news with CNBC and the financial news network and then CNBC and, you know, now Fox Business News said there are a ton of resources out there. It's, it's overwhelming.
And that's, I think what we're trying to do on Wealthtrack, at least I find it overwhelming is just talk to known quantities who again, you know, have the track records that I, they're true professionals. And so once a week, that's what we're trying to do. Have an in depth discussion with an individual about the process, their investment process and how they see the, the world and, and what their investment strategies
are. And we just ask them for one investment idea at the end of every program. We're not getting 100 investment ideas like you know you would on, on CNBC, which does a great job covering the markets on a daily basis, but you're gonna get one like is there one thing that we should all own in a long term diversified portfolio? So that's how I've we've really set ourselves apart and I'm not gonna deviate from that. Yeah, nor should you. I I think it's a winning formula.
I these are my words, not yours. But I did. CNBC does a great job of keeping people tuned in. I don't know about all the although if David Faber, if you're listening, you are the real deal. I love David Faber, that guy. 'S Oh, he's wonderful. He's legit. They've got a they've got a number of people that are good over there. But you. Know it's just it's an insanity.
It's terrific. It is terrific, but it's it's they have a different mission and they've got to cover the markets and the markets is their story. No, I'm, you know, I'm a huge fan of CNBC, so no question about it. But I wanted to do something different and, you know, CNBC probably wouldn't be interested in the kind of program that I'm doing. Yeah, yeah. It would have to be on like late night or something like that, right?
It it it could not be. But they've got Shark Tank and they've got, you know, they've got these wonderful programs, they're doing great. So, you know, I'm a huge fan. It's just that there there's room for a different message and a different approach, and that's what Wealthtrack is. What's What's your audience demo? Do you have any idea? Right. No, no, I mean we do, we, we don't get Nielsen because Nielsen's really expensive to get. So but we do know what are because we do surveys.
And so, you know, our audience demos are largely college educated graduate degrees, well, middle to and up, middle income and up and about, I guess about 40% of our audience is actually under 44. And the other, you know, 60% is over 45. So that's where our demographics are. And, and it's, it's largely men still. I mean, I, our audience for women is growing, but, and having, you know, online has just been a huge boon to our audience growth.
And that's where we're attracting the, the younger viewers is on our YouTube channel. So, you know, if you go on wealthtalk.com, you can, you know, stream us and, and we do podcasts, not as many as you do, but the show is, is actually is available as a podcast. So yeah. And we, we're, we're going without doing any advertising or it's all organic growth and word of mouth and you know, the wonderful linkages that that YouTube does. I think I found you through the
Apple podcast player. I think I think, you know, 2018-2019 or something you recommended. And I started listening and I was like, oh, this is great. So yeah, interesting. What? What we? Try to do is, is have guests from with very different perspectives on. And I and I think probably two of the most diverse examples that I can give are, as we talked about Bruce Berkowitz, the Fairholme Fund that is now like, you know, 80% plus in Saint Joe, the real estate firm in Florida.
And Matthew McLennan, who's on the other end of the spectrum, both value investors, but, and you know, both very much don't want to experience the permanent impairment of capital. But Matt McLennan, who you know, is, is running a, a $80 billion portfolio at First Eagle, their global value fund or their global international fund that has several 100 companies in it. And you know, two very different approaches.
But let let me give you some sound bites from Bruce Berkowitz of the Fairholme Fund and some of the lessons that he's learned and I that he I am more hesitant to deal with highly regulated businesses where one civil servant can decide whether a very large company lives or dies based upon a perception of social good and without any respect for the owners.
So Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, he, he fought a long fight to try to get the private shareholders or the public shareholders recognized and have ownership again in Freddie and Fannie and has failed so far. But Fannie and Freddie are making a ton of money, but the government owns them and the shareholders were basically cut out of, of that success story. One of the reasons that he invested them in the 1st place.
And then the other one was that what he learned through his experience at Sears, which was a bruising experience as you know, as an investor in Sears, is that that he decided that if he was going to take a big position in a company ever again, that he would have ownership. So that he was in a position to really dictate what the policies and the strategies of the companies would be. And Saint Joe is a perfect example of that where he's now chairman of the board, largest
shareholder. And so that those were kind of a couple of lessons that I thought were worth sharing. And with Matt McLennan, who has a, a, a terrific track where he runs a balanced fund. It's not, you know, pure stocks at all like Bruce's, but the first Eagle funds are, are, you know, broadly diversified. They're value oriented. They always have a 10% stake at least in gold as kind of ballast for the portfolio as he, as he explains it.
But they're looking for resilient companies that that will are, you know, good will produce results for the long term. And one of the said the things that he said recently was in a world that's uncertain, you have to be willing to invest in a range of different business opportunities at regional prices. We don't tend to get too carried away with anyone investment and that's been part of the reason we've been provided an element of resilience over the long term.
So he's been broad based portfolio, 2 very different approaches that have done very well for shareholders over the years. Yeah. Do you have any views on, I mean, well, the question that you ask is one investment for a well diversified portfolio. So I suspect you lean towards diversification. Yeah. Yes. So the the set up with that is that we have these portfolio managers on who are managing portfolios.
So it's like picking your favorite child, but you know, just, you know, one, if you were to could just, you know, put one stock that we should add to a diversified portfolio, what would it be? And so those are the ideas that we get, you know, from them. Yeah, Well, I, I only ask because there is a school of thought that says put all your eggs in one basket and watch that basket closely. And then there's a school of thought that that says diversification is the way to to survive, right.
So. Well, there's room for both. Curious, all these interviews, all these great people that you've interviewed. I I wonder how that's changed your opinion or evolved your thinking on that if it has. Right. There's room for both and I think that everyone should have a very, you know, a broadly diversified portfolio and therefore there is room for a Bruce Berkowitz for one portion of your portfolio and maybe a
core. And no, Morningstar is called the first single global fund, you know, kind of one of the top kind of all in one portfolios because they invest across, you know, different asset classes. I mean, they do stocks and bonds, they do international domestic. And so it's kind of a core holding. You want something like a first yield fund. And and I'm again, I'm not making a recommendation, but these are the kind of guests that we have on.
And what I've learned over the years is that that you do need to be broadly diversified and that that there's room for multiple money managers and there's room for having an index fund too. Yep. To participate. It, it was my own stupidity, but for a while I was not able to hold both thoughts in my head. But thankfully I was younger and, and had a lot less back then. But you know, I, I, I kinda, I mean, you know, concentration, you can get risk rich, right?
But you also can lose everything or or maybe not everything, but a lot. So the volatility is tough to stomach. Yeah. So where are the customers yachts? So, right, yeah, that's that's why I think it's great to have the concentration again in a in a portion of your portfolio with managers that that run their portfolios that way. Yeah, diversified concentration slightly. Yeah, I agree. Diversified, right? Yeah, with diversification, with concentration. Yes, it makes this makes sense to me.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I get it. Yeah. I don't know. I wanna talk to you Bor, but I don't know what to talk about. This is how it how it goes. I I you know, I was gonna ask you for a book recommendation, but I don't know about a book recommendation.
How long are you gonna do? Well, track what's what's going on in no. So, you know, I mean, ask, you know, ask Warren Buffett when he's gonna retire and, and you know, ask Charlie Munger when he was gonna retire and Dan Fawcett, Lewis Sales, who's still, you know, and his 19 is still working. And, you know, there, I think Charlie Ellis, who wrote what, what a book that I would recommend winning the Loser's Game is in his 80s.
And he said this is one of the wonderful things about this business is that, you know, you are, you're constantly learning. The environment is constantly changing and you meet some really neat people along the way. And, and you can keep, you know, doing it for as long as you've got an audience. That so I, I mean, I love what I'm doing. I I heard.
You know, in in one of your podcasts that you know, you say you can't imagine going on the golf course and just retiring would be devastating to me. I would shrivel up and. You. Know intellectually and I I really the metal challenge and having deadlines is is really good for me and it and I and I get a tremendous amount of energy from other people. That's where I get my stimulation and energy is from talking to really smart people.
That makes sense. So you're, you're like an extrovert with the big time interest in the markets that enjoys talk. Yes, All right. And big time interest in helping individuals build wealth over the long term. I mean, that's, that's the motivating factor. And and I think we've really, I think our through our guests, I think our guests have helped our audience do that over the years. And we've certainly had some terrific feedback from our audience from all walks of life.
It's really great on the, on the subway, the one of the conductors will come up to me in New York City and say, you know, I watch your program and it's really helped me. And you know, I, I started a 529 program for my grandchild or we've I've gotten a lot of terrific feedback and, and from a lot of women, especially who are tend to be ignored in by Wall Street, even though that's becoming less the case now.
Well, as as one audience member who is very grateful to have gotten to interview you, I will say that, you know, they, they say don't meet your heroes. I would, I'm gonna put you up as the counter to that because the way that you speak about what you do and how apparent it is that you care about the right things. I I'm really happy that you found this calling and I hope you get to do it as long as you want to and someday I'd love to meet and do this in person
because that. 'D be great, I would love. To do like a genuinely good person, I think, and I think we got a lot in common, so it'd be nice. I know, Bill, thanks so much and I'm I'm so glad that I was introduced to you by by Hannah Nadler. So this is terrific and I'm you have just gained another podcast viewer. Well, thank you. Consuela Mac. So I I really appreciate the opportunity. You know what? I love it. Is great.
We're so lucky. You know, what I loved about Heta's interview was when she went into, she said that like growing up as poor as she did was a gift. And, and I was, I thought that was like one of the best parts of the entire podcast because it really shook me and, and, and forced me to listen And who, who she is, is she's an incredible person. Oh, she's an amazing person. She really is. And just so enthusiastic and so smart. Yeah, she really is.
And and I think she also said something about, you know, you deal with the reality that you're given and it's you don't decide whether if you're in high school, you know, Gee, do I really want a job? Well, she had to work and she said so. Sure. So she'll, you know, she'll enjoy work, she'll be happy about it. And that's that's kind of my attitude about life too. You have a choice when you get up in the morning or you're going to be miserable or you're
going to be happy. And it's being happy and optimistic. Is a is a a much better choice, much more fun and enjoyable than the alternative? That is 100% true. I cannot let you leave without asking you one investment for diversified portfolio. What would you recommend? Well, I do. You think I'm gonna give you one? I would hope so you you have enough to. Pick from but I you know, I I don't give investment advice either, but my guess certainly do. Fair enough. Listen to Weltrack to get them
weekly. Yeah, exactly. That's right. My one investment is to is invest and stay invested because it works out in the long term. That's a pretty good one. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks, Bill. I hope you enjoyed it and I certainly. Did I? Did I? Did too all right, have a great one. Take care. Thanks. Bye. Bye. You too. Bye. Bye.