Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of a group of glamor models from the UK who band together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost
town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and how best to tell this story. My team and I aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet, so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but for one reason or another, not all of those interviews
made it into the series. All of them were crucial to how we put this series together, though, so we're bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring you an interview I did at the very start of production, which was really important in shaping how we told this story, from the way we conducted interviews with models all the way through to the wording we used in the final scripts. From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny
Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me, as well as the people we interview, to help us report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty, topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to
or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists working on these stories with the tools to tell those stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.
I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a project manager working on our Ingles project.
Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign, a program that was started in the wake of the Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With the team, it heard was central to the way we interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from
them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do for projects in the media.
We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media in a way that changes the conversations but also opens up a better understanding of these issues.
And how do you go about that? How do you create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.
The first thing is we bring together people with the experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to be able to talk about this story in a safe and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard and understood by audiences, but also that they can do this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.
And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the stories that people with this experience want to be told and support them to understand what the issue is.
When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable enough to share their story with the media.
One of the first things that we really work with people to understand is the control that they have in situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during, and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to, and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that
they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's okay to have something that you want to get out of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't have to do it alone, so you can have a friend with you, you can have an ally with you, or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me, this is not the right time for me, and pass it on to someone else that is better suited.
Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand the people they are interviewing, but also for the people who are telling their stories.
In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced and that really like center people instead of you know, the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a society towards a way of like looking at these issues
that can have an impact for the people affected. One thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions, sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with our story and then they don't approach us or engaged with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean you know, not giving them the control over the narratives that they want to share, or just like in doing an interview and then don't follow up with when this
is going to be released or involving them in the process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution, and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times and journeys want to get it right. But then we really need to be aware of what our behaviors are reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.
What are some of the main stereotypes that you want to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.
But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors for that they should have just a certain way done, a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks like and like the TV shows that we watch, if we're seeing the same thing over and over again when we're approached by you know, for example, some of the different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend
what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that that can't be quite true because that's not what I've seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable to think that you know, people close to you might be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.
But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also need to then do something about it, talk about the solutions as well.
I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know, really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned, but that has some things in it that can be probably for people who work in that industry or who are victims of survivors. But what are some of the common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the sex industry or on the glamor industry.
Language is really important, and I think we're prone to use language when it comes to reporting on these issues in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't take into account how the person wants to be described, what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards
a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To see how we all play a part to make this issue as big as it is, and we often hear like, you know, institutions can really change, like this is such
a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And what these narratives do in people's mind is that people he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where their minds will go when they hear the stop it without hearing that actually we all have a part to play, there are solutions, and even just showing there are places where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.
Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the women at the heart of the story's space to be represented and related to as people beyond what they do for work. After the break, I get some specific advice on how to report this story. Some of the women I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers, and while others don't identify with that, many people would
see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than others to share their stories with the media.
For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse. This is where we really hate a wall. Like we are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused because of the work that they choose, but actually what we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in this way even when they choose to do this for a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.
And so we go back to how do we bring the conversation back to what the real issue is and not what people want to see as the issue. So it's really important that we reframe the way that we think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.
If you were to give me some advice when it comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area, how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing them or falling victim to any of those sort of stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.
You won't be able to get everything right, like you will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human. I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing someone is always ask and have that conversation with them, because that can be huge in setting the foundation for the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview to ask them what do you need? How can I
describe this? And how can I say that? And just checking with them also about like what are your triggers, what is it that I need to avoid? What are your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well, simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them, have someone to help them prepare if you have an editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey, like I'm going to do my best to make sure
you're represented well. But if things change, this is why explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just really simple things.
One thing that we have faced in this production, and I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long time to make anyway, because you know, you have an interview process and there's an editing process. This is a big investigation, so it was already going to be a
long process. Do you have any advice on sort of how best to handle people who have told their stories when there are delays, and how to kind of manage expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to put together and to put out there.
For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're realistic about how the process works and how the industry works, and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and making sure that you don't forget the people that you worked with in the process, I think is really important.
One of the things I wanted to speak to the team I heard about was whether they had any advice for me on how to cover a story about one man that many women are making allegations against.
I think the really important thing to remember, especially when there are like a lot of allegations, is not to fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding a way to report without falling into that trap and showing that it could be anyone because of how what
is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know, the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components of this story might put on the plead that's the key on how you can sweitch the conversation.
So for me, this story has always been about power. I think a huge part of it as well is the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general public has about sex workers, and even just two girls that I've spoken to the way they try to kind of get this out there and try to get people to listen for quite a long time, but just really felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was a real sense that like, well why did you go
on the photo shoot? And it was like they never they felt like they would never listen to from the start. And so for me, those have been the two most important things to get across that kind of being a sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim or any less susceptible to this, and that this is really about power. And I guess with that in mind, do you have any specific advice about how I can frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.
Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors, what they really need is that recognition from their community or the society that you know, the rights that they've been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by
being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right, We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma, and yet you know there are human beings that are still the humanized in the way that they experience these issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.
So if you're telling a new story about the way we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the person that has been affected by this, and I think that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey, this is not this individual's.
Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this issue and not the individual one, not this person that made this choice, but all of us and how we all contributed to turning a blind eye.
As for how to get justice for the women in our story, it was heard that first put me onto the idea that it doesn't always have to be through the courts.
When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal institutional systems. And so we also know that what a survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements
of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control over their stories in a way that they can share in their own terms, and also control over the exposure that they have when it comes to the trauma that they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing in a person to giving them a platform to actually share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of
justice to the person that is doing the talking. The media can have a role and a power in giving a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that they need by just showing that they believe in them, giving them a platform and giving them their voice to say this happened to me. This is the way it impacted me, and people might believe it or might not
believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and they know it brings them justice because it sures the reality of this cave of the issue, then I think there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability in having played the party, in giving the vice, and that's what you're doing with your podcast.
This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with me that telling this story and getting it out there could be a form of justice. It was this motivation that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really, it's what fueled me since I started out as a journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us
on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories about women and the sex industry, and how that led to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.
They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in this series and that they prohibit paid to play the practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.
You can find me on social media by searching my name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are. Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and
scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander, Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development
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