Hey guys, we have a double header today coming from two state-based journalists who I really respect you're doing great work Justin Kanew at The Tennessee Hullar. He's going to talk about the anniversary of the Covenant shooting and the fallout from The Tennessee 3 that happened in the days and weeks after that. And then we'll have Justin Fenton from the Baltimore banter talking about the bridge collapse local journalism is being hollowed out. And I want in this episode for us to discuss both of those very important issues but also the state of local journalism and models for fixing it.
If you want political chop-shop talk, if you want to hear what might take my rant on the RNC's new litmus test for staffers that they need to believe that the 2020 election was fraudulent head on over to the next level. I'm taping that next. So be out this evening. If you want to hear the latest legal news, Sarah Longwell and George Conway are up with a new episode of George Conway explains it all go check out both of those on your Apple or Spotify or substack feed up next Justin Kanew from The Tennessee Hullar.
All right, have long last been wanting to do this for a while. I'm here with my friend Justin Kanew, founder of The Tennessee Hullar, a digital news site. He was also two time contested on the amazing race. I don't know if we're enough time to talk about that.
We're on the one year anniversary today of the tragic shooting of a Covenant school in Nashville. And so I wanted to talk about that fallout for that what happened with the Tennessee three. But first I really just want to kind of talk about your origin story in the order of the story of the Tennessee Hullar, which I think is probably the best local activism oriented journalism. I don't know how you describe it action journalism. What how do you define what you're what you're up to at the Tennessee Hullar.
I like the phrase accountability journalism, but sure activism journalism hybrid hybrid. Yeah, the origin story is, you know, it goes back to when I ran for Congress in 2018 had jumped in the race to challenge Marshall Blackburn who I know a lot of people have strong feelings about. I certainly did.
She ended up running for Senate I ran for Congress I lost to Mark Green. And while I ran I just felt like there was this kind of lack of a presentation of whatever you want to call it the progressive side of the argument here in Tennessee.
You know the only way to get your voice heard as somebody on the progressive side was to just hope the Tennessee and let you write an op-ed. So it felt like we needed something to counter the Tennessee star, which is a conservative outlet here in Tennessee kind of like Tennessee's bright part. So we started the holler in 2019 really video based because that's kind of my background. I used to be in the entertainment world. I'm not like a traditional text based journalist. It's just not what I do.
And we started 2019 and one of the first things that happened was we helped get rid of this really corrupt speaker Glenn Casada who was the speaker of the time and my state rep. And that kind of put us on the map fill Williams really lit the match, but we poured gasoline all over it. And we've become this kind of dog with a bone group of accountability journalist across Tennessee.
There's 10 hollars holler and now I spend a lot of time up at the Capitol trying to hold Republicans accountable because they're the ones with the power Democrats to when they do stuff we disagree with. But you know it's kind of a weird hybrid like you said of journalism and activism and you know we're openly progressive. We don't hide what we're about and that's what we are.
Yeah, I think that canters important and that authenticity and so people want and you know look as we're going to have a reporter on or a straight news reporter from the Baltimore banner later to talk about the bridge collapse and as local news has been hollowed out. You know across the country everywhere. There is just this big gap or people are not getting information. It's being filled by national news sites and conservatives on the right.
They filled that gap with a lot of misinformation on a bullshit from these national outlets right either it used to be talk radio and now it is the bright parts that you mentioned with podcasts, roll the Steve Van Enz, the Candace Islands, like there's just this huge ecosystem of right wing news and you know I think particularly in red states, you know,
which is why you said they're 10 hollars. I think they're all in Tennessee. I've been pushing you to kind of take it national but that can be another conversation. But you know in these red states like folks are not getting the straight news. They're also not really getting a different perspective from the mega perspective whether be progressive liberal or just kind of centrist pro democracy.
It's hard to find that a lot of times even in these local markets and so I think having both is so is so critical and when you guys are out there, have you felt like there was just a just a thirst for this among you know folks that you're talking to in the state.
Absolutely, absolutely, you know, even just in the time we've existed, we've seen a lot of the reporters that have that knowledge of what's gone on here over the years go away, you know, a lot of the publications have less reporters at the Capitol and like you said into that void comes this disinformation comes, you know outlets that really all they do is act as stenographers for the people in power,
they don't challenge them, they don't push back. And so it's been a real problem and it's helped facilitate the drift to the extremes I think in a state like ours because people aren't getting the other side of the story. So I think that's all the truth, you know, who was it? It was Christiana Mampore recently said be truthful, not neutral. And I think a lot of the outlets that exist are trying to find that middle ground, trying to be neutral.
And it's really detrimental and it's in a lot of ways it's put us where we are. So we try to do with the holler. We don't lie if we get something wrong, we fix it, but we frame things in a more, I guess, aggressive way that lets you know what's actually going on here. So the example that I always go to is there was a statue in our capital of Nathan Bedford Forest in a place of honor in our capital.
Well, Nathan Bedford Forest is the first grand wizard of the KKK. And so people were showing up to protest it and the articles about it were people protesting Nathan Bedford Forest. Our headlines were protesting the first grand wizard of the KKK. It's true. And it tells people what's actually going on in a way that people can understand and resonate and sure enough after two years of headlines like that, it's gone.
So I think you have to tell people what's really going on and framing is really important. So that's what we've tried to bring. Yeah, hell yeah. I love the statue, our grinks. It's like, oh, we need to respect history. It's like, no, like this guy, we can learn about Nathan Bedford Forest and learn how he's a racist piece of shit. We can learn about it in the history books. It doesn't even have a statue of honor. Okay. Another example of how aggressive you guys are.
I pulled a little audio from a press conference with Governor Lee. Let's just take a listen to this exchange on the drag queen bill that they were putting forth to ban drag shows in Tennessee. What a ridiculous ridiculous question that is conflating something like that to sexualized entertainment in front of children, which is a very serious subject.
Andy, what's your got? Andy, I'm just wondering if you're aware of any cases or instances that they're building this job. Are you aware of specifics in terms of the call? I think the concern is what's right there in that building children that are potentially sexualized entertainment to obscenity. And we need to make sure that they're not. I think that's something that should happen in Tennessee and that will because of this bill. Thank you all for your time today. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Okay, drag queens come to school. This is you. This is you at a high school governor. This right here is you at a high school. Is it only illegal when gay people do it? Have you talked to her sister about the bill governor? Oh, you left that part in good. I'm glad you did. Yeah, that's a shame. What was the deal? What I love that is I want to know. What's the deal with the sister? Is this sister a drag king or I don't know the story of the Lee family?
The governor, Lee's sister is married to a woman. And it's something that he doesn't like to talk about. And he is signing more anti LGBTQ bills than any governor never talks about it. And so we talk about it. We mentioned it. I think it's important for people to understand the hypocrisy of this man and how even when it's someone in his own family and immediate family member, he's still willing to do this stuff that attacks that community.
And I'll say this. I haven't really said this publicly, but like the one call that I ever got from the governor's office to say, hey, don't do that was about that when I mentioned his sister. And I told them absolutely not. I'm still going to mention it. And I'm still mentioning it right now. I think it's an important detail. But thank you for that trip down memory land. That was a fun day. And the one time that I brought some visual aid to the presser.
We'll put up the picture. It does lose a little bit in the audio format without the picture of governor Lee with his pearls on. There are kind of some nice pearls. I wonder if he still has them. I could wear them on MSNBC. There were great pearls. And also I should point out that there was a group that took out billboards in Tennessee and put that picture of him in drag in his yearbook photo up when that was happening.
It's just important to understand how hypocritical these people are. And it really flustered him. Although I will say, Speaker Sexton and Lieutenant Governor McNally do not let me in their pressers. Governor Lee to his credit. I still go to his pressers and he still takes a question from me. So, you know, after all that, he still lets me into his pressers. And I do want to give him credit for that.
I guess. Sure. We'll give him a little bit of credit. And I guess I don't have to. It's sort of like a double edged sword on the free speech. Right? It's like, okay, well, I will let the Tennessee hour in my press conference. But I won't let people, you know, do drag shows, do drag story hour. Parents decide. Parents rights unless a parent wants to take their kid to a drag drag queen story hour. Then that parent doesn't have rights anymore. Oh, true. It's disgusting.
The other thing on the sister, I just, I feel like I should mention because I've been looking for an excuse to mention it. The same story in Louisiana, Governor Landry's brothers gay. And it's been an outspoken advocate for gay rights and the whole situation is tragic. And he's advancing anti gay legislation in the state now in 2024 anyway.
And it's gross. He mentioned Lieutenant Governor McNally. I wanted to go to the, I wanted to go to the anniversary. But we can have one more moment of jolliness. Can we have one more one more? Can we have one more charcoal before we get to the sad. The sad story. One of the other things Tennessee haulers broken. I'm pretty sure this is when.
I mean, I'd seen your guy's stuff. But when I was like, I need to talk to this guy. I got to say I need to hang out with whoever's running this was when it was outed that the Lieutenant Governor Randy McNally. And not very attractive older gentleman. If we're just going to be candid, I guess I can say that you don't have to weigh in on the looks of the year of Lieutenant Governor. But kind of a yucky older man was putting very.
I don't know how long you describe the types of comments he is putting on the Instagram page of a young gay supportive supportive very incur flirtatiously encouraging comments on the page of a. 19 18 like very young maybe even younger than eight younger than 18 okay very young gay obviously gay young man named Franklin who by the way would also help me discover franklin's Instagram page he's an artist in his own right.
Yeah, he's putting out a lot of interesting content, but you know not the type of content usually a straight 70 year old man would be commenting on and so you guys talk to folks about the saga of Randy McNally. I got to tell you when I first saw what this was it took me about six hours to believe what I was looking at. Yeah somebody mentioned to us that Lieutenant Governor McNally was commenting on Franklin's Instagram page which if anybody seen it.
Basically naked in every picture dancing around in you know G strings and flamboyant like you said and you know proud of his body totally and there is Lieutenant Governor McNally with you know fire emojis and heart eyes and something about like you can be the rain in my rainbow you know obviously flirting with this guy who was very young and you know I messaged him.
I started to talk to him before we posted about this because I didn't want to make him uncomfortable and Franklin's response to me was no please include my handle and you know tag me and you know blow me up as much as you possibly can. I want to move to big city. I know. So we posted about it and I made sure to like screenshots you know screen recording because I knew the minute I did this it's going to go away and they're going to tell me that this wasn't true.
So we had all the receipts posted about it blew up you know apparently Lieutenant Governor McNally's handlers didn't tell him about burner accounts because he was doing this on his Lieutenant Governor McNally handle. Lieutenant Governor count with a blue check. And his profile pic with his suit on I mean it was just unreal and so of course it took off his excuse was that he's just supportive of the local community.
There was some question about how young Franklin was when he started to talk to him and that kind of never really got delved into but I have a feeling it wasn't a great look. And yes you know it became a big thing especially on the right but everybody apparently has moved on he's still Lieutenant Governor McNally and I guess that's just in the past now.
This is though again I mean even though he didn't end up resigning another example why you got this is needed right this is the kind of thing that he was not going to get called out for.
Probably not I don't know I mean it was so crazy but I think the important thing about it and this is what Franklin harped on to was that he is leading this Senate chamber that is one of the most conservative of the entire country attacking gay people constantly I mean the amount of bills that come through that chamber and this legislature it's just an endless stream of hate and here he is flirting with a young gay man while he's you know leading the charge to attack gay people in the country.
So the hypocrisy of it all you know it's worth more than just whatever one article might have come out we you know we're dogs with a bone about it and you know we made sure that it got the national attention that it deserved.
Yeah and there's so many outrageous LGBT bills we could go through them all of them but the one just that is the most galling that's happening right now is this we're banning the pride flag from the classrooms that the Confederate flag we're keeping right because we need to respect our heritage.
Okay but so you can't fear a gay teacher you know that wants to put up a pride flag or for a gay pride month you want to support students in your class and put up a rainbow flag that will be banned in the free speech state of Tennessee not just a flag a cup on your desk or a tattoo or a necklace I mean this is what we're talking about here so yes it's led by this guy Geno bolso who is pretty new to the legislature but is very quickly become one of the most hateful.
People ever to go through this building and he has this pride flag ban that explicitly carves out the Confederate flag and allows that to stand which is actually on the county seal of his county Williams County which is where I live but yes to ban this pride flag while claiming to be you know free speech advocates and all about freedom and it's just it's another way that they're attacking our teachers are public schools and it's just so hypocritical.
Let's get back to the anniversary so it was a year ago that shooter went into the covenant school six dead three nine year old kids the most deadly mass shooting the history of Tennessee. Sadly this like wouldn't even be top I think four in my home state of Colorado it couldn't even lower than that and the response to this though was you know for a red state pretty overwhelming right and there's
a lot of people that wanted action and that kind of led to this series of events that ends up with the expulsion of the Tennessee three so and you're there kind of documenting this minute by minute let's refresh everybody's memory on kind of the play by play and how you know beginning with the shooting and then the protest and the fallout sure so the shooting happened a year ago today just absolutely devastating day in Tennessee history I remember learning about it watching it unfold you know the faces.
Of kids on school buses the kids coming out of the school you know as people start to realize what had happened you know it's impossible to even put into words how devastating that day was the next day at the legislature because they were in session when that happened I was there and it was really business as usual in a way that was stomach churning you know they were going about their business they did some moments of silence but
nobody was really talking about okay what are we going to do to keep this from happening again I actually went around and asked probably 30 of them in a video that went pretty viral the next day you know what are you going to do to keep this from happening again and they would just be silent walk away from me and so there was a real hunger for something to be done to make sure that those six people didn't die in vain kids and
they were at the next session which I believe was a Thursday thousands of people descended on the capital saying do something they were chanting outside there were speeches given you know parents kids came out of school teachers they all wanted something done and on the house floor yet again it was kind of business as usual there was a
silence but then when a few of the members Pearson Jones Gloria and I think there were maybe some others they tried to talk they just wouldn't even let them really talk about what had happened it wasn't like a processing moment it was a let's move on we don't want to talk about guns guns or taboo in this state which has more than our share of gun violence and is actually loosening gun laws and so when they were cut off they had their mics cut off which happened a lot here
and they went into the well to go say we need to do something banging on the well in the legislature and they immediately cut that mic gabbled into session after like five minutes and for about 15 minutes or so the Gloria stayed in the well basically like we need to do something Jones had a bullhorn and it was a cathartic moment because the thousands of people that had shown up asking for something to be done that was an extension of them and if that hadn't happened those
people that showed up would have felt completely unheard so they were doing that to sort of be an outlet for the anger and you know desperation frankly of the people who showed up that day and it was much needed and the Republicans in charge absolutely lost it over that they started saying it was an insurrection they started saying it was a violent they sent out robo calls saying that there were pipe bombs that day I was there none
of that happened the students were completely peaceful there was an edited video of troopers grabbing a student that they made it look like the student was rushing the chamber never happened it was all peaceful 100% peaceful as some of the articles written about it afterwards say and they took that and the reason they started calling it an insurrection is because they knew right in that moment we're going to use this as an
excuse to expel these three and so the expulsion proceeding started within a couple weeks and very quickly they expelled the two young black men and not the older white woman.
Yeah and you guys broke another new story in response to that which was inside the Republican conference there pissed each other because a situation that you know the way that that ended up happening expel and Justin Jones and Pearson and not Gloria and you know shown a light on what was already you know pretty racist actions and silencing these two legislators that are right to speak out in the wake of a tragedy and so they had an internal
action and you guys got some audio that I want to play a little bit of that right now. I've been called a racist a misogynist a white supremacist more in the last two months of my life that had my entire life by Gowley I'm fighting my tongue telling you the speaker of all due respect days of rare thing I'm going to have to swallow this to see Mr. Jones back up here walking these hollow balls that the great
Tennessee stood it and watched him disrespect this cup to stay that I chose to move to my gowley is got to stop I'm sorry for getting angry my father was V. They plus four and he offered his freaking country and literally his friend's got you gotta do what's right even if you think it might be wrong you gotta do what's right and you gotta protect this freaking Republican kind of see what's all going to help home I'm getting freaking gray here sitting here listening to the
guy I don't know if I've had enough of this fucking he ha bullshit so just if you missed that you gotta do what's right for the party even if it's wrong there's one statement there the other one the one that kind of gross me out even more I know is the big headline you guys took away with one that gross me out even more as this guy who admits to being a transplant the Tennessee by the way I moved to Tennessee and these hallowed halls he's like now I have to swallow
watching Justin Jones walk to these halls and elected representative a black man this guy could not even bring himself to to see him walk through the halls to see him have the same privileges that he does as a white legislator to hear him speak his mind about what should be done in a democracy when kids are being slaughtered I can and these guys are like we can't even let these young black representatives
progress of speak and walk in here they're not worthy to walk amongst us and it was fucking sickening it's sickening and when Gloria we have Gloria in this podcast last year in response to that I mean she said that you know that audio that you guys had was pretty representative of the conversation she was hearing for you know in private for a long time for sure first of all that Scott's a picky so let's give him his proper do out of Murray County thank you yeah I
mean I think it really is representative of how they actually feel even though it's a you know leaked audio hidden Mike situation I've asked to pick you about that since he doesn't regret a word out of his mouth he says you know if the southeast falls it's game over for the republic where war for the republic he believes all that stuff and you know for him to say that we have to do what's right even if you think it might be wrong I mean I think that really sums up so much of what we're
seeing from republicans across the country these days you know that that's really really succinct summation of you know the way that a lot of people are acting and how we got here as a country they couldn't believe that they looked racist because they only expelled the black dudes these are the same people that kept a KKK grand wizard bust in our capital for years you know they've made fried chicken jokes and there's all kinds of race
of stuff that has gone on here for them to be like oh my god how could people think we're racist is laughable and you know Jody Barrett is the guy that cast the vote that kept Gloria Johnson there and so they're really mad at him in that clip and they're
mad at him for making them look racist not realizing that they do it to themselves all the damn time thankfully both Justin's were sent back unanimously by their districts they're still up there speaking their their mind speaking up right now as we speak and and so
as a reaction to that what republicans are doing now they're passing a law that says that if you get expelled your community can't send you back here really it's going to the legislature right now that's happening now yeah they actually had three bills to do it in three different
ways one was a constitutional amendment and the others were doing it in other ways and yes this guy Johnny Garrett is passing it so when something happens that they feel like goes against their agenda they just change the law and that's the threat to democracy that people need to
understand is happening in Tennessee and I said this to you you know off podcast and I want to say it to you on here the reason that people outside of Tennessee need to pay attention to what's going on in Tennessee is not because we're a swing state we're not a
swing state but we are the tip of the spear when it comes to the quote unquote culture war that's happening in this country this is a laboratory of theocracy were republicans figure out what they can get away with and export it to the rest of the country and that's why you need to pay
attention to what's going on here these guys think and act like they are representing America the American tradition and that those that are the un-American ones the heathens ones that are threatening the republic when it's like the opposite is true I mean like every action that they have
taken on this Tennessee legislature goes against the fundamental principles of what the country is supposed to be about the fact that we are a representative democracy you know as we're discussing before free speech with these drag bands the ban on pride flags I mean it's these guys
are trying to turn the country into a Hungarian style autocracy it's not the Democrats of no power in Tennessee because they're gerrymandered I actually don't I think I'm a gerrymandering sometime overrated it's not overrated in Tennessee Nashville you guys don't
even have a rep you guys don't even have a congressman in Nashville the biggest city in the state because they carved it all up it's an important point to make and it's also important to point out that a lot of the things that they support just
from a policy standpoint are not popular right so they have carved themselves into this strength position but their draconian abortion ban which is the strictest in the whole country that's not popular what are the details on the Tennessee abortion a zero days so you know
life begins a conception no exceptions no real exceptions for life for the mother rape kids are forced to carry to mean all the stuff that you they voted down an amendment just to let rape kids have abortions they unanimously killed that so there's that there's all these you know anti-LGBTQ bills on guns most of the state wants some sort of gun safety laws they won't let any of that past so you're right that they do not represent America in the sense of democracy but also just even from a policy
standpoint if you drill down to it they're not representing the majority of even this state and it's just a challenge to get the state to understand what's really happening up here and that's kind of why we started the holler it's usually people that are asking me this question
it's like liberals are saying to me Tim help me get inside these Republicans brains and so I'm going to ask you to do that though because you're you're seeing about that but I mean you see the evidence of it you're talking about a laboratory at the ocracy they're talking about how this is a threat to the Republic there's a lot of civil war talk there is a hint of secession type talk what do you think that they see as the thing they're defending what are they trying to defend what
is the system of government that they want implemented I don't think it's a system of government that they're defending I think first and foremost it's it's Christianity you know it's their version of Christianity bastardized Trump Bible American version exactly it's like you know you know both so said 17th century values or 1700 values from when this country was conceived you know that I think is in their mind it's you know that the two parent household
where the the wife stays home you know it's I have to say white supremacy you know I mean it would be an incomplete answer without talking about that aspect of what they're defending you know but it's really at the end of the day it's their own power you know it's their own power and personal ambition and I don't think it's much more complicated than that I think there's really a selfishness verse community aspect
to all this and they're just willing to do a lot to maintain what they believe they're entitled to so we're here out now we're talking in the green room you said that they were on the one year anniversary like kind of honoring the rifle or something there've been no no gun laws no have there even been school safety types things as if they in response to this the one thing that they did to make themselves feel better was they passed a law about
firearms where you have to have like a different fire alarm process if there's a shooter in the building then you do if it's a fire I will that'll do it right because when covenant happened I mean in a serious way when covenant happened you know I think there were some kids that ran out into trouble
because they thought it was a fire and so you know there is something to that you know as far as maybe it's something that needs to happen but it does not get at the root of the problem which is you know a proliferation of of guns throughout our state as
evidenced by the amount of people that are dying here every single day and we're honoring the Tennessee rifle tonight yeah the Tennessee rifle is being honored in state government committee by rep Mark Cochran who you know his defense was well I sketched with it for last week and they rolled it a week today is their final calendar it'll be interesting to see if he actually goes through it.
I get this question so I get to give it to you think about leaving you worried about being in Tennessee what I mean what you're how do you can a process all that I mean I'd be lying if I said it hadn't crossed my mind or other people's mind you know it's constantly a conversation that I'm hearing about here in Tennessee
part of me worries that you know by telling people what's happening here we're chasing away a lot of good people but I just think this is a fight that has to be fought you know I do love Tennessee I love living here we've lived here for seven years
there's not a great stuff about Tennessee great food great music beautiful people a lot of great people for Amanda Shire's was on this podcast we haven't heard her she's the best so much so I would say Tennessee's worth fighting for and that's why we're here doing what we do so we're not going anywhere my kids are growing up here going to public schools you know we've met a lot of great people a lot of people that you know our
fighting the good fight and I think that's kind of one of the things that happens in these red states it's you know you find people who when they're standing tentos down as people say on this stuff you know it's sort of a different attitude and you kind of find a new respect for people like when I lived in L.A. in New York these weren't fights that I needed to fight you know I just took it for granted that you know the people in charge kind of agreed with me and I didn't need to show up every day but here the people that believe in this stuff and want to fight for democracy
and want to fight for equality and for people to be welcomed they're showing up every day and those are the people that were standing shoulder to shoulder with and I don't want to leave them behind.
All right I said to you and promise listeners look if we have a big progressive on we have to you know we can we can we can pretend like we can just do five minutes and pretend like it's 2011 right pretend like we're not on the cusp of an autocracy pretend like we just like met at a bar and for some reason school vouchers came up we started arguing about it so Tennessee's pushing for school vouchers right now.
You're going to do to me what Al Franken did to you. Yeah I'm going to flip that I'm flipping it. Al is obsessed with trying to get me to sound like a conservative when I come on the podcast. He's like fight with me about something and I'm like okay. What do you want to fight about environmental regulations? Sequel? Let's fight about Sequel.
Okay I don't really want to fight about that but I do want to hash this out because I want to acknowledge up top that these fucking Christian nationalist bastards we've been talking about I don't really want them in charge of anything. With regards to schools and I would rather that they not you know be making these decisions at all but in a vacuum. You know if you're lower income person Tennessee and the public schools are being hollowed out or the public school in your area a shitty.
Wouldn't it be better on net for those families to have access to a voucher access and ability to you know maybe take their kid apparent to take their kid to a school. To charter school to religious school to a school that better prepared them for life better fit their values what's wrong with that. Okay so this would probably be an entire podcast on its own but I'm going to try to get to it in the time you give it.
Well there are four minutes. Okay. And then we have to argue about TikTok for four minutes so we have eight minutes all right. Okay we're not in a vacuum we're in Tennessee and governor Lee is in charge and and Betsy DeVos came here to help him. Start his voucher push and she has openly said that her agenda with public education in Tennessee is to advance God's kingdom.
So let's start there that that's where I believe governor Lee is coming from now what you presented yes that is kind of the logical.
Excuse for what vouchers are the problem is in implementation they're not really putting any income limits on this stuff they're not limiting it to kids that are in struggling schools it's now going to the entire state their goal is universal vouchers and it's impossible to take seriously people who under fund education in Tennessee by billions of dollars when they turn around and say well public education isn't doing what it's supposed to do.
So the argument that I would make is we need to fund public schools and not be in the bottom forties in public per pupil spending we need to make sure that the public education is able to do what it's supposed to do in Tennessee and not you know leave kids behind because what vouchers end up doing is yes maybe for a few kids they help them get to a better place but public education has to educate the kids with disabilities the kids with learning disabilities and everybody's left behind taking money away from school.
Money away from schools that are already struggling to do that is not the way to take us in in a good direction and then as a last thing I'll just say before you grill me on this what we've seen in the states that have done this is 80% give or take of the kids that use these vouchers are already in private schools so what they end up being is coupons for the wealthy that take away resources from our public schools that are underfunded.
We don't need to grill we basically agree that's that's great let's put income limits on it see this is how democracy should work you know we've got progressive just in and you know moderate class to clear level Tim and it's like that we've already have we already have a deal we do the vouchers for the bottom 20% vouchers for kids in the bottom 20% vouchers for kids in districts with that have graded schools that are failing and we should fund those schools and try to get them better but in the meantime kids should have an option if they need well I'm still going to reject the deal I don't want to get I just.
I'm I'm using that as a way to show you that they don't actually mean what they say they I'm not offering to accept your deal on vouchers all right that's fine okay we have we have the outliers I'm like the aoc here I'm not here to you know I'm not I came Jeffries
we have the outlines of the potential deal will continue in the future all right here's the one that we want to argue back we're texting about this you don't like to take talk man no I do so tell me why you don't like it and then we'll go from there I just think
the whole thing is disingenuous first of all what are they doing that these other platforms are not doing do we trust Elon Musk and the Chinese oh yes the Chinese thing well I actually don't believe this is coming from the Chinese and I think this is where we disagree you know
and it gets into a whole other topic I'm not going to try to open up but I think what people are upset about is that young people are learning about topics like Gaza and Israel especially in a way that they don't want them to and so you know we saw the head of the ADL Jonathan Greenblatt say we have a tick-tock problem and then three weeks later we see a 50 to zero vote in committee to potentially ban tick-tock I don't think
Banner tick-tock is the answer I think tick-tock informs kids young people especially keeps them politically engaged I think Democrats especially are wrong for supporting this politically and I just don't think anything is happening that it's not happening on the other platforms there's a lot of lack of discrimination happening I mean I just taking Gaza as an example I was scrolling through tick-tock the other day and there was a picture of something that was happening in
Syria three years ago the young person that's doing the citizen journalism is acting like this is happening in Gaza and it has a million views and I'm okay this is obviously happening other places there's Fox there's plenty of places where there's a so I'm not saying this is a unique thing to tick-tock but I also think that we probably Encouraging kids to only receive their news from the tick-tock algorithm in tick-tock also if you're on it and you use it frequently you know I don't like Elon
either but my Twitter feed is mostly things that I've opted into have you looked at the for you feed lately I have you looked at the feed feed and it's fucking it's garbage but my Instagram feed is mostly people that I've opted into my tick-tock feed is all random shit you know I'll be
going through and it'll be like you know some some 22 year old in Arizona who's doing like a shirtless news report about what's happening and then I'll scroll up and it'll be like somebody some basketball report from Serbia and it's like I have no idea where these
things are coming from and I think it's easy for a foreign government we're not saying get rid of tick-tock altogether it's like let's not let a foreign government you know put their put their finger on the scale of a this kind of black box algorithm when we don't know why
things are being served to certain people we don't know why things are being surfaced versus not surfaced you know I just think that's a different animal than a opt in social media I see what you're saying I just you know I think maybe open up the algorithm or something like that
saying it's not a ban it feels like it is a ban because you know who knows what they can sell it when making them sell it to an American but what if they don't then it's a ban right I mean that's then they're going to ban that's the whole point but you know and again I don't I'm not saying unregulated social media I just don't necessarily think that they're doing anything that isn't happening on I mean there's plenty of disinformation on Twitter sure when it comes to social media you either have
to trust that it's on balance a good thing a positive thing and those things are going to self correct or you don't and I don't trust that this is coming from you know we don't trust China I do think it's coming from kids are getting action they're not getting elsewhere we need to make that stop I think it's about China I will say that probably the guys are thing did spur action that people have long wanted and I think that there have been long
concerns about the China thing and frankly Biden should have done this earlier so this was not an election year issue because I do see how I he already has trouble with young voters and I do see that the potential risk with them but I don't mean the Chinese I think he's in big trouble with young voters I really do what do you think he should do what would you do if you if Joe Biden called you the less wing tomorrow and is like Justin how can I help improve my numbers with young progress
I think you need to do everything he possibly can to make the situation and guys a stop I think humanitarian aid needs to be led in there I think we need to you know absolutely put conditions on our help to Israel we need to stop sending them weapons I mean it's it's long been way too much already and I've been saying this you know for months I was even late to the party I mean what's going on there is horrific the images coming out of their horrific and that's why his numbers are
suppressed with young people is because they're seeing this on social media in a way that my mother and my parents are not seeing it on CNN and MSNBC I don't think Joe Biden wants it to happen but I also think that his bear hug of Israel has taken us to the place that we are now I'm going to have the opposite view of this on tomorrow people this is dicey I'm a classic just middle of the road squishy Tim I just can't I think Joe Biden's in a really tough situation I think he's been handled
a lot of the young progressives I think that the expectations of a crazy there was a good article that Peter Ricker and Susan Glasser's kid wrote for the Atlantic about what's happening at Stanford and I was watching the Twitter discussion about this from some of the left folks at Stanford's
campus and when one of the kids that the baker had wrote about had said that you know he thinks Joe Biden should be killed I know you don't agree with us he's defending himself on Twitter by saying well what it have been wrong to say Hitler killed or or been lot and should be killed he's doing a genocide and this is where I'm like these young people are not getting good information all right like Joe Biden is not Hitler and he's not been lot and he's trying to navigate a very
challenging situation he's been distancing himself from BB at times and at other times he's been supportive I think of their legitimate right to defend themselves from a terrorist group that wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet and it's like if you really thought that I don't think anybody's trying to get through to these young people if you really thought that Joe Biden was a genocide almaniac which was this guy's quote in the vein of Hitler
it's like well then you wouldn't be saying that on Twitter because people who live in countries that run by genocide almaniacs are very scared to mention that they think that they're a genocide almaniac it's not a logical it's not a logical statement I completely agree of course he's not I think that's an awful thing to say you know I think and there are absolutely people out there that are pro-Homos that are happy that October 7th happened I think that's disgusting too
we can't argue about the fringes like that I just think generally speaking you know I do understand where these young people are coming from when they say like they might not be able to bring themselves to go vote in November and I understand that uncommitted vote was encouraging Biden to you know change course like I think people are trying to help him help himself and I have this fight with my parents and you know my siblings and
you know they say well your Trump is worse and I agree Trump is worse like of course Trump is worse and that's the reason that we need this to stop and I'm not saying that I'm going to not you know support a president and let Trump win but I do understand when you have these images in your mind every single day I mean even this week it's still happening they're facing famine like we have to make the stop period full stop
and so you know I think that's the way to keep Trump out of office that's the way to help Biden correct his numbers and you know I can't get behind this idea that like you know we just need to let this go on because we have to support Israel Netanyahu is not a good guy. Thank you for opening up that can of worms because... Sorry I don't know how do we get that?
No I appreciate you opened up the can it was my eyebrow to tick I'm glad you opened it up though because that's you I don't know has been represented on this podcast it should be because we need to have an open dialogue about tough issues and that's what we're trying to do here not bullshit people people that want to get good news real news have real discussions about what's happening in Tennessee Gaza everywhere the Tennessee Hollow check it out be here at the Bullwork Justin can do...
And follow the Bullwork and support the Bullwork I don't tell you this enough Tim but you know I do listen to you I follow you I know that we don't agree on every single thing but I really appreciate what you do I think you do it in a way that more people need to and so I appreciate you too Tim
Man back at you brother I hope we can see each other have a beer soon I want to thank Justin Canoe as one year anniversary of the Covenant shooting I want to remember the victims Catherine Coons, Mike Hill, Cynthia Peake, Evelyn DeKaus, Halley Scruggs and William Kinney, three nine year old kids and they're just not doing anything about it in Tennessee it's pretty devastating and disappointing On the other side of the break we'll have Justin Fenton with the Baltimore banner on the Bridge Claps
All right we are back with another Justin Fenton investigative reporter for the Baltimore banner He was at the Baltimore Sun for 17 years he's the author of We Own the City which became an HBO mini series developed by David Simon Justin thanks for jumping on to talk about this really tragic incident of Baltimore Yeah of course thank you I wanted to just point out first before we get into the Bridge Claps
The new owner of your former outlet of Baltimore Sun wrote a column this week saying I'm no longer certain Putin is the bad guy in Biden it's the good guy in Ukraine it's complicated this goes to the theme of our episode today it shows the need for real local journalism truth
So talk to us about the kind of origin of the banner the new outlet the Orkinat The Baltimore Sun had been treated ownership many times over the years I was there and then it was taken over by a hedge fund that had a really bad reputation for gutting newsrooms So there was an effort it was called save our son where we're trying to get a local ownership group to take it over and it failed
And one of the buyers who was considering buying the Sun said even though I wasn't able to buy the Sun I still think that there's a need for a nonprofit newsroom in Baltimore And so they approached me it was the right time it was a great project and I jumped over and as you pointed out since the hedge fund sold the Sun And they've since been taken over by the the chairman of sinclair broadcasting which is headquartered just north of Baltimore now owns the paper
As implementing some changes including inserting the co owner Armstrong Williams who now writes frequent op-eds for them Do you think everybody was aware that this was an actual plot from the wire and that was supposed to be a spoof in the final season of the wire?
The horrible owners taking over a newspaper and gutting it and ruining it it's a little bit too close to home I mean it was quite a surprise I remember where I was when the news came in I was thinking was watching the Buffalo Bill's playoff game and it was like wow David Smith is about the Sun So far I think I still know a lot of people over there and they're still doing the same coverage that they've been doing
There's little ways that they've been sort of inserting themselves and changing things but I know that the editorial product has not changed but we'll see because they certainly have a reputation on the TV side And so the main mission of the banner talked to us about that what you got what holes you guys are trying to fill I mean it's not just the Sun like local media everywhere has been pretty devastated
Yeah I think that again effort was to create a sustainable model the idea was that the for-profit journalism model was not sustainable And if we could create using this seed money from our founder a steward Bainham we could sort of create an environment where news can last
That's our goal we're getting there we're not there yet but things are really positive Yeah we're really hopeful for the future we're trying to cover the city but also the region and we've been growing and growing which is something I've never experienced in my journalism career
A newsroom that is growing instead of contracting but I'm really proud of the work we're doing We'll keep monitoring this thank you for doing it and this is a moment where you can tell the importance of it You know so it was Monday night into Tuesday morning just after 1am was a container ship crash
And that France Scott Key Bridge which I've driven over many a time I'm sure you have as well Just a really a tragic incident yeah six deaths from I guess construction workers that were working on the bridge to rescue it and I guess the rescue operation is over Why don't you just walk us through the basics of what happened and where we are right now It got a call from a source at 2.30 in the morning I slept through the first call that the Key Bridge had collapsed
And I'm kind of groggy and out of it and I'm like what do you mean collapse like a piece of it fell And he's like no the whole thing collapsed check it out online and there was this video showing the ship hitting it and it just toppling into the water
And as you mentioned having seen that I mean it not just driven across it but it's in our skyline It's something you see all the time you see it from Fort McKenry it's iconic in many ways and it's just stunning But the fallout is incredible I mean obviously there's six lives that have been lost
Yeah economic impact on the port the transportation impacts this is something that we've mobilized like our entire newsroom to cover and I know we're going to be covering it for not just months but years to come Yeah only into the impacts but first I mean the one element of this that is I guess someone inspiring or hopeful is I guess the ship itself when it ran out of power and kind of anticipated that it might be crashing into the bridge
It sent out a warning signal and I guess in enough time to stop traffic from crossing the bridge and I guess 130 and warning not a ton of traffic but there will should have been some cars going over that bridge had they not done that right
Absolutely the video shows cars traveling over the bridge as this is happening and the initial reports from emergency personnel was it up to 20 people were being sought And then as you looked a little closer in the video you can see the traffic had stopped that there weren't cars crossing over it
And then we got the word that yeah the word had been put out I guess just in time I can't even understand how they were able to do that but as tragic as the six lives that have been lost it really could have been a lot worse especially this had happened not at 130 in the morning So yeah pretty incredible Think about the impacts for Baltimore I mean you know the hollowing out of the ports and the jobs on the port I mean this is like a tail as old as time in Baltimore
Is are there concerns that while the cleanup is happening folks are going to adapt and there might be a long term negative impact on Baltimore What are officials saying about how long the cleanup is going to be talked to us about that kind of economic impact on the city
Yeah I mean right now the channel into the interharper into the Patapska River on that side is just cut off there's there's mangled metal in the water And I think you know because this is such a stunning sort of event of a bridge is giving way because a ship hit it on the way out There's going to be a really serious investigation of this so I think what we're hearing is that they're going to keep that intact because they want to study it they want to understand it
And what that means is no one's coming in or out keep what intact I'm sorry the bridge the bridge will remain oh man okay exactly So it's impossible right now I know there's a strong urge to get it cleared but you know that that's going to take some time I think not only the investigation is going to take time
But the simple act of removing this enormous structure from the deep waters is going to be very difficult so yeah I saw a figure yesterday that said the port is expecting to lose $15 million a day Things are being rerouted we have a cruise terminal that they're diverting returning cruises to North Virginia So we just starting to wrap our arms around what this is going to look like but it's definitely going to impact jobs it's going to impact commerce
You have you know Westmore who is kind of arising Democratic started a profile in him while back a governor a new governor of Maryland from Baltimore First really major crisis challenge from him like what what have we been hearing out of out of him and he's also you know a Democrat that's very interested economic development
So I assume that this is going to be something that he's you know super engaged on yeah he was he was in Boston at the time that this happened and headed back I think that a bio
Assessments he's been you know just leading with poise and trying to reassure people but this is going to be very complicated and you saw I feel like you saw I'm not a political reporter but I feel you saw a little bit of politics creeping into things yesterday when President Biden was talking about covering the full cost and he expected Congress
We make sure that that happened it was sort of like it almost sounded like a bit like a challenge that you didn't expect that to be that easy but people are saying listen this isn't about politics This is about you know making this region a whole again being able to reestablish a major transportation channel a major port established jobs and we'll see how that progresses in this climate
Yeah I've got bad news for you Justin Pontics is going to be involved in this you had online yesterday on the right I mean we have to talk about this it's just absurd but the mayor of Baltimore brand and Scott younger black guy online someone the right we're calling him a DEI mayor saying he's not capable of this
We've lara Logan was on the band and podcast yesterday talking about how this was actually a terrorist attack and these guys are covering it up Out of the out of Jones called it World War III yeah okay do we have any evidence of a terrorist attack what's the actual reporting on that No I mean you know again this ship had just taken off we can see in the videos that there's a electrical power failure of some sort
You know I personally do have questions of what could have happened that early into its journey but authorities are saying there's no evidence of anything terrorist or intentional nature I saw those memes the things going around I saw a tweet saying that he was the DEI mayor and I clicked on the clip thinking he must have slipped up he must have said something stupid and that's why they were making fun of him
It was his poises I've ever seen him so I mean it was really just coded racism and really unfortunate to see but really really widespread What's next for both of what are you guys going to be focusing on what are you looking at in the coming days
Oh man we're all getting crash courses in engineering you know we've got people talking we had one of our reporters used to work with the Miami Herald And was first on the scene at Surfside so we're talking engineers we're trying to figure out those economic impacts
And again there's still a recovery operation underway so a lot of angles but thankfully we're a nonprofit newsroom that has a resources to cover them I think a lot of nonprofits across the country and I've been getting crash course in this myself I'm a legacy media guy I've followed mostly legacy media there's so many interesting newsrooms but a lot of them tend to be smaller You know they have a handful of reporters they try to put out some impact stories a couple times a week
We aspire to cover everything and we have got the staff to do it so we are chipping away Alright well if you're in Baltimore care about Baltimore care about the region make sure to check out the Baltimore banner Justin Fenton thanks for taking the time to come talk to us about this and the lake of something that's really tragic And Devastick for city I love I love Baltimore I got you know we go to our bunch when I need a weekend away when I was living in DC
And it's been a city that's been hard hit already and I think this is probably just gonna make things even more challenging for you guys Yeah but thank you for having me on I appreciate Justin thanks so much And it wasn't till now that I've come to see the view from behind those eyes We were singing to an old familiar song when she came walking through the door With her heart held high and the light in her eyes, the light doesn't see you anymore I'm the living light and the dead see you all
The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with Audio Engineering and Editing by Jason Bra