Hi everyone and welcome back to the Building Financial Fitness podcast. Today we have a special and I believe evergreen topic which is mindfulness in personal finance. And we have a guest today, um Stanley, thank you. First of all for joining us. Thanks for having me. So Stanley is the founder of the Mindful Circle, and I also wanted to give the audience a little bit of context of your history, what got you into mindfulness and why you've built Mindful Circle. So maybe let's start with that.
Well, I started my career in banking, so 15 years in banking, hustle and bustle, dealing room, moving as fast as you can, getting things done. And that was exciting and interesting, but a lot of it was thinking work faster, smarter, better. And I wanted to do a bit more. So from there, I sort of bridged over into coaching and consulting really to help people and organizations with thinking, with alignment and
with developing capabilities as well. That got me sort of away from banking into the coaching consulting space, but there's still one more thing that felt a bit lacking, which was balancing the thinking. So we're very good at critical thinking, analytical thinking, quick thinking. But we also need to take care of the mind a little bit. How do you rest? How do you recover, and perhaps also slow down the thinking sometimes to have
a different type of wisdom. And I went to mindfulness for self-care actually and well-being, so it's purely selfish and purely sort of uh transactional or sort of practical. But what came out of it was quite surprising for me, uh, which is the clarity that you get when you notice a bit more, when you don't automatically solve the problem in your head. Not everything in life is a sudoku to be solved. And maybe with relationships with loved ones or or colleagues.
So that sort of opened a new door and that got me really excited and so from that I got into training in mindfulness, completed a master's in mindfulness and sort of moved on into mindful circle.
I love the commitment that you put into the mindfulness space because the level of study that you put into mindfulness, not everybody. actually goes to the extent of that, even though mindfulness is often a word that's tossed around in various circles, mindfulness is obviously related to mental health, they are advocating
more mindfulness in the workspace. And today I want to talk about mindfulness and personal finance because managing your own finances, you can imagine there's a whole bunch of emotions that's related to it, even for managing family finances. A lot of family arguments actually are based on money issues. Hm. So I wanted to get your perspective of how do we practice mindfulness in the realm of managing our own money, our own investment portfolio because you came from that world.
I wouldn't say I have a better than average answer, but certainly some insights. I think what you said about finances being emotional is a really important starting point. So just acknowledging and recognizing that money has this psychological and emotional weight to it. Before I did the master's in mindfulness, I did another master's in coaching and consulting for change, and my thesis was on financial anxiety and how that can drive financial decisions.
And so a little interview that I was doing with for my research was asking people to complete the sentence, money is. So someone might say money is freedom or money is Power, money is status, money is winning, if you like. So money is one of these things which you can project pretty much anything onto. I think Trump has said before a long time ago, before he became president, even the first time that without money you can't keep score. You need money to know who's winning, for example, so
lots of different psychological frameworks we associate with money. And so when it comes to personal finances, We just have to be a bit careful and aware of what money means to us. So we will talk about, let's say spending, for example, there's sometimes a risk of overspending on the next shiny thing and that could be because, you know, it feels like a necessary treat or maybe
it expresses I've arrived somewhere in life. Yes. Or maybe this underspending because of some sense of wanting to be cautious and safe and then we don't spend something that we need. So recognizing that money has this psychological and emotional pool is the starting point of then making a considered decision. So mindfulness allows you to kind of pause in that moment to be aware of what's happening. So I'll give
you actually a funny example. So I had an investment position in a stock a few years ago and I had built that position up over a matter of weeks. And it was becoming more and more of a um must win feeling, right, because it was complex, it was going up and down, it's like it felt like a sudoku, a puzzle to be solved.
And how long were you looking to hold this stock?
Ah, this is a great question. So Sometimes what you say and what you do, anyone, including me, you know, sometimes there's an action intention gap. So typically I would say, you know, buy to hold uh as a long term diversified portfolio to have stable returns riding up the volatility. That's certainly sensible wisdom. But from time to time, you might get involved in a stock, you know, you felt that I bought it but it went down, that can't be right, you know, why did it happen?
You take it personally. And I said, I'm going to buy a bit more because that was wrong somehow. Well,
I mean, that's also averaging down in
a way, absolutely. So buying or selling itself is not right or wrong, but it's just noticing whether you're beginning to do stuff out of an emotional desire to win or not lose or to prove yourself right. Or you're taking it personally. This dog doesn't like me, right? And so I noticed that in myself. So I really want to buy some more right now, but let me just sit with that for a second and feel that.
And it was really interesting as I sort of sat and sort of felt the emotions coming through the body and the mind and thoughts. Another thought came up which is actually I want to sell this shit. So I sort of sat with that then and said, OK, what's happening there? And eventually sort of balances itself out sort of quiet. And the reality at that moment was actually I was bored. I was just wanted, I had an action impulse to
do something. So coming back to personal finances, whether it's spending, investing, budgeting, just beginning to take that moment to lean into whatever you're feeling before having to act on it, just gives you that extra space for that extra clarity and from that hopefully comes the ability to make a choice that is more aligned with your long term well-being. Not sure if that's helpful.
I think it's extremely helpful. I think that the concept where you talked about what money is to you, that links very much to everyone's own personal narrative of what money is. I think that it changes across generations because when we think about our grandparents or parents' time, you know, I can imagine for a lot of them, when you ask them the question, money could mean survival. Money could mean protecting my family, like making sure they
have the next meal or the lights are on. But fast forward to the next few generations, money could be, like you said, freedom and then that could then go on to the next generation where money status. Money is is for me to show the world that I have a certain standing in society. And I think we have seen that change very quickly for a country like Singapore that actually has been managed. To prosper economically in a very short amount of time.
And that's why generationally I think there's a lot of differences in terms of personal narratives to money. So I think that it's so important to be able to sit with those emotions and actually understand why am I actually buying this or why am I actually buying, selling this stock the way that I am, which is the example that you talked about and how can we be more disciplined? With sitting with our own emotions and looking inward before
thinking about how we deal with money. Is there a structure or a framework to this?
For me, what has helped is um practice over time. So I think step one, we're dealing with something that's very unconscious almost and very deeply ingrained. Our money scripts, if you like, you know, the stories we have learned growing up that money is X or Y or this doing this is good, doing this is not good. Those are very deeply ingrained. So having A sense of kindness to yourself as you navigate and adjust to discover what works. I think that's helpful to start.
The second thing is really sort of being aware beyond just at that moment I want to buy or sell,
but also look at your intentions as well. So a good example, and this is way before I got into mindfulness just in banking in general because we will take positions, etc. A very helpful discipline, one of my seniors instilled in me to say, if you're going to buy something, Before you buy that stock, for example, just take note of exactly why you're doing it and be clear on when you're likely to sell, how long you hold for, etc. so that when volatility comes, when the stock goes up
by 10% or down by 10% in two days, which is very surprising because the mind starts kicking and they say, oh, I'm such a hero. I got it just before I came in, it's up 10%. I'm a genius, and then ego comes, other things come, and then you start doing something differently from the original plan. Uh, or it could be the other way around. It falls 10%, you think the world is over, even though
your investment thesis was sound. So being aware beforehand or at the time of purchase can really help you at times of volatility or at times when it feels so tempting to buy more or sell. So just being aware of it in advance. So each time you look at your portfolio, that's an Opportunity to reaffirm what's important, whether it's up or down, how does that feel? And also there's some behavioral finance
techniques as well you could use. A fun one is, yeah, sometimes after a while you hold a position that you don't want to hold on to, but you hold on to it because maybe it's a loss making one and you can't make yourself crystallize that loss, quite a common feeling. So a question that we sometimes ask is, imagine that you are logged on to your trading account on your desktop. And your cat walks across the desk and steps on something and sells the share for you. Would you buy
it back? And if the answer is no, then it's interesting because you currently hold it. If your cat sold it, you wouldn't buy it back.
You've actually answered a question for yourself.
So, so these are sort of things that you can do just to double check our intentions are aligned with what we intended in the beginning. And we haven't sort of accidentally rewritten a story or intentions because it's very easy to do that in the in the haste or in the battle of investing.
Yes, I think in the realm of investing, what you talked about with regards to the investment thesis, I think it really links to Investment conviction and I think that's something because I started on the buy side and every time be public equities or you're writing or private capital investment, there needs to be that conviction of why one buys into a position and that actually takes a fairly informed approach I feel because There could be an insight that we have that may
be that you feel that the market is not seeing, and that allows you to weather the ups and downs of the stock movements because as long as that investment thesis slash conviction hasn't changed, there's no reason for you to sell just because it goes down. And there's no reason for you to be super, super happy or exuberant when the stock goes up beyond what you projected. Yes.
But when we look at individual investors, you know, not institutional investors, but people who are, you know, could be a mom at home or somebody who is just investing for themselves, sometimes it's not easy to have so many data points. They're not necessarily, they're not building their own financial models, sometimes they're buying stocks based on somebody else's recommendation. So how can one actually have that kind of conviction on mindfulness when entering or existing positions?
There's quite a number of different things you have said there to unpack that a little bit. So if it were a sort of more like household investment, uh retail individual, so the amounts may not be as large. It's unlikely that we can accumulate uh large positions in one thing. So a recommendation would be to firstly diversify so that it's a balanced sort of exposure and therefore the volatility hopefully gets dampened over time.
And so it becomes then the discipline of investing whenever you can and riding out the volatility along the way. So it wouldn't be as ideal to be having large positions in a single stock because that would be bringing a high risk, high reward, which may not be suitable for the long run. I wouldn't say whether it's bringing mindfulness or not, I think it's just a question of being intentional.
So if the intention of this investment is, let's say long term returns for the family, then we can understand the kind of risks we can take and uh go on that basis and stick with it. If on the other hand, and I do that too, it is more more speculative position purely because it feels interesting or you just want to know what it's like.
Then understand how much you can afford to do that with that, you know, spend on that and accept that that's not an investment, that is not that different from buying a lottery or yeah, you know, sort of a very speculative position taking. And we're bringing mindfulness in the sense of we are being aware that we're going to do that. So let me enjoy that. Maybe I can sort of contrast that with, let's say, Myself and drinking coffee. I drink a lot of coffee.
It's not great for me and I know that. So if I'm going to drink a coffee, let me enjoy that coffee. In the same way, if you're going to go into Bitcoin because you really, really think it's going to triple in the next 3 days, figure out how much you can afford to lose, put it in and enjoy the ride. I hope you get, you know. returns and whatever it is, sort of learn from that experience.
In that example, actually going into it, being comfortable that you could lose your principal.
Absolutely, yes, exactly. So knowing that this is not an investment, this is like drinking a coffee or having a giant pizza because I feel like it, generally it's not great. I might love it, I enjoy it. So let me lean into that enjoyment and get the enjoyment out of that.
One of the first few um investment philosophies I got in my first job working in a family office where we were basically investing in public equities, the founder of the company basically said that whatever you propose, you must be comfortable with losing the principal. Why do you think that approach is important?
Well, in a way, it's a very conservative way of looking at things, so at least you know, in a worst case scenario, where will I be? So by doing that, you don't take on too much risk or more risk than you can bear, and that's particularly suitable for, you know, sometimes with some of the um investors, there might be this philosophy of what I call a 4D plus FD plus 4D, put my money in something that's super safe and then I'll gamble on
something my friend told me is amazing. And if you're going to do that, then you must make sure that the high risk item is something you're willing to to lose completely. That's one way of doing things, of course. There is also a more diversified approach, but you don't necessarily have to imagine that everything will fall to zero. Imagine all the shares in Singapore, the blue chips, DBS, Singtel, etc. to say that they will all go to zero. I mean,
that would be a very conservative assumption. So I wouldn't say you always have to assume you're going to lose everything, but when you're going beyond traditional investments, uh, beyond diversity. portfolio that safely managed, it is definitely prudent to assume you might potentially lose all of it in a terrible scenario.
I love that we captured the part of mindfulness in investing because I feel that that's not often talked about, you know, in a very practical way. I think you raise a lot of like good, you know, personal examples of how that actually works for you. How about mindfulness when it comes to your The other part, which is the spending part of things.
I think that's even more relevant because you know, we're making spending decisions all the time, yeah, day in, day out, exactly, and we may end up consuming more than we intended to, you know, choosing where you go on holiday, for example, what we have for meals. So when it comes to the spending, I would say mindfulness is also highly relevant. I think there's many contexts, but two that I can
point out now, right. The first one is in the moment, so the impulse buys and sometimes, I mean it happens to me all the time, right, that I end up the day and I go, I'm not quite sure why I bought that item or I go to a shop intending to buy 3 things and then I buy 5 things.
Where did those two things come from? And so very often when we are, you know, working at speed, sometimes we want to get things done, we can do things automatically and maybe something, you know, uh looks like a good deal and we end up buying a little bit more than we needed to. So, in the day to day, in the moment spending, uh mindfulness, similar to what I was saying earlier about holding the shares, just getting that sense of, oh, I feel this impulse to buy more.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy, but noticing the impulse means that you're going to pause the auto buying, right? Or maybe the other way around, you see something you really need and a part of you says just keep walking. So, I wonder why I have this urge to keep walking. Let me just stop for a second and just, just, just breathe and have a look at the item and maybe it's something I need. Um, so that's of conscious consumption if you like, or purchases.
I think in the bigger picture, just being clear in our minds about the sort of 5, 10 year, 20 year views. Maybe right now we're in the accumulation phase of our lives and therefore, even if it's fifty-fifty, I'd rather not spend because there is a longer term vision or goal that's important to me. So I think mindfulness allows us to sit and be clear about the long term as well, so that when it comes to the short term, we can make those decisions with a little bit of a North Star as well.
Yes, I believe that it is also about balance because you can look at both ends of the spectrum. There are some people who are very FOMO and like FOMO, YOLO, you know, let's go on that fantastic trip to Switzerland because you only live once and you need to have fun when you're young and that could be a very expensive trip. At the other end of the spectrum, you have people who scrimp and save and don't spend on a single thing until the end of their lives and sometimes they never got to enjoy.
Everything that they accumulated in their lifetimes. So we are looking at two ends of the spectrum. So I think that balance is important, that balance is very different for everyone because different people ascribe different value to different things. So it's important to identify what are things that are important for ourselves personally. So let's say if you know I value good health then that someone in that household would have no qualms about.
You know, spending more on higher quality food, even though it costs more, but you know for them because it's part of their value system, then that makes sense and you're not kind of like putting your enjoyment into the future because that's something that you're doing on a day to day basis or when somebody is buying luxury items, you know, sometimes people could easily fault them and said, oh, you know, these are unnecessary things, but if it truly truly gives them joy, unbridled joy.
Then, and if they know that clearly for themselves, then who are we to question?
Absolutely right. So, having the clarity and intentionality to make that choice that aligns with what's important to you, whether it's health or enjoying that item, I want to go further as well after the decision is made to then really embrace that decision. If I've decided to buy this luxury item to treat myself with this item, let me then allow myself to experience it and enjoy it. Uh, sometimes it's a little bit sad that Let's say in a in a family going on a vacation, uh,
maybe dad and mom have slightly different objectives. There is a discussion, animated, energetic discussion, and we agree on something. But the person who, let's say one wants to go for, you know, an experience for for young children, etc. that decision is made to go for the experience, but then when going for it, because you feel a bit bad that I pushed so hard for this, maybe I should, I shouldn't. Ask for so much more but then maybe we should
also lean into something else. And what ends up happening is kind of accidentally dilute the experience, which is a shame. So, you know, all our decisions when we have made them, I think, uh, without being apologetic, just really being sincere and fully immersed and engaged with whatever the choice is, I think can bring so much joy to the experience as well.
I agree with that. I think that what you said about thinking about that purchase decision on hindsight and kind of constantly checking in with yourself is important because sometimes it could be buying, it doesn't need to be luxury items, but I think many people can identify with. Looking at a pile of things at home and wondering why did I buy that and when did I even buy that and like did I actually get utility from it. Sometimes it would be like you said, impulses, being able
to recognize those, I think it's important. Being able to see if We're buying things to impress others or actually for ourselves? Because the utility from doing the former I find often is actually not very high.
Yeah, yeah, so extrinsic uh validation rather than self intrinsic motivation. Exactly. Yeah, and and it's also very unstable. Things that are sort of more aligned with deeper values or deeper needs allowed in a very natural and organ. Organic way tends to be healthier and more wholesome, yeah.
Yes, and that requires inward looking time spent looking inwards and understanding yourself, which doesn't come immediately. I think that takes work, which is why I'm very glad that you started the mindful circle. For listeners who you know are interested in the work that you're doing with the Mindful circle, where can they find you?
We are online, so you can easily find us in mindfulcircle. Dot org, org. And what's unusual about what we do is we want to be really accessible. So we have sessions that are free or even the longer courses, you can pay as you like as well, including pay nothing. So the goal is really to make this available to the broader community. Yes,
and I appreciate that you do that for like the nonprofits or you know, the marginalized communities in Singapore. So thank you for that.
We try to do our best.
Thank you, Stanley for being on. Many thanks as well to all of you out there for tuning in. This has been a fantastic conversation and we would definitely love to hear what you think about it. If you would like to get in touch with us, you can reach out to us through the email podcast at melisten.sg or at my Instagram at misfitie. Aside from that, if you enjoy what you're listening to and want to hear more, please help to spread and grow the show by subscribing on Me Listen or Apple.
Podcast or by following on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Finally, the Building Financial Fitness podcast is an original production from Media Corp and recorded at Skate Live Studios, the pod, powered by Audio Technica and City Music. Episode production is done by Junes Yu with editing and support by Danny Cordy and Gareth Fernandez. Once again, I'm your host and BFF Junes Yu. Until the next time.