Mike Cernovich - Hard Truths in Trump World

how are we doing these days on the right? When people ask you that question or when you think about that, what are the first things that come to mind? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is they did when a mid term with the House, and they did get a popular vote majority, which mattered of course before the current time. Right, Well, they won the popular vote for the House. That's the good news. The other good news is the Senate is looking good in twenty twenty four.

Republicans can take that the you know, on the other hand, there's a lack of purpose and mission caused by an obsession with the twenty twenty election that like just won't go away. So you have a number of people myself included, and I'm becoming more of a dinosaur who says I mean, of course, every you can read about the Jfkle election, you can read about Bush versus Gore. Democrats had their opinion on that, of course, but you have to move on or you have to have some kind of solution.

You can't dwell on it. And the right is currently obsessed with it and will not let it go. And anyone who doesn't think that's the most important issue as a traitor controlled opposition not ready for the moment. And that's people saying that as a large percentage of the voting bates, that's a huge problem. And I don't know what, if anything, is going to be done about that problem. Yeah, I was gonna ask you what you said, a huge percentage?

What percent of the GOP base would you estimate based on your interactions with them, are completely and unalterably, at least for now, committed to the idea that Donald Trump won in twenty twenty, and therefore a replay of twenty twenty in terms of strategy, candidate, everything would be to our advantage. I would say ten to twenty. Yeah, that would be. That would be my guests as well, is there what would have taken me? So so when I have people, for example, calling on radio and I'll bring

up I think Georgia is a perfect microcosm of this. Right, I think there are some states where you can look and see and say, hold on a second. We were able to win all but a race that was very much associated with Donald Trump and with twenty twenty election issues. And I'm not somebody thinks it was a clean election. But to me, that becomes irrelevant at some point unless we're talking about fixes to the election. Do you think

there's anything Is this an unfalsifiable claim? Now for many people, the twenty twenty election was stolen and therefore it doesn't matter. We just have to have Donald Trump again because he'll win this time. There's so there's two elements to that. One is the people who I don't think are annoying who say, hey, man, it was taken from Trump unjustly, let him have another rematch. I don't actually get upset

by that point of view. I don't agree with that, I think wrong, but that's within the realm of reasonable dis chorus. But there's fortunately it's not ten percent, but it's probably one to three percent who would say, well, buck, you bring up Georgia. But that's because they the voting machine. People let these Republicans win. That's what they'll tell you.

That there's control now to a level of granularity where they can say, Okay, let this guy Republican win and that one win, but we're not going to let that one win. Those people drive me insane. Honestly, they not insane, but they annoy me the way Internet spam annoys me. And there's no reaching them. That's the bigger problem too. So within that subset of the ten to twenty percent we think we have to redo twenty twenty is say, a percentage of people who they're not open to reason.

You can't say, hey, look we just had an election, barely one why they barely won. Will Florida that map? We now have people attacking de Santas's redistricting map in Florida, which is the only reason the House has a majority right because Lee's Alvin pulled a few people up in New York to Santas is actually in federal court or will be soon because when the Florida legislator drew up the map, it didn't give Republicans much of an advantage, but because the state had changed, it was an unjust map.

The Santas said no, we need to do a new map and did a new map. So it's barely a Republican majority. That's because himselve in in the Santas, not because of Trump. Trump seemed to have dragged down people who couldn't let go of the twenty twenty election, and that would be the logical case that I make. No that they're having you know, they're having none of it.

Can can I ask you, you know, as a guy who I think certainly became known in conservative circles in the Trump era and relating specifically to twenty sixteen and the rise of the Trump movement, are you accused? Like? What are what are people who are very who are so pro Trump that they don't want to hear or they don't believe some of the arguments you're making. Is

the response that you've you've turned on Trump. It just feels like you would have the credibility to say I still think a lot of what Trump did is great, and I appreciate Trump, but I at this on this issue, I break from some of the narrative. Right, do you get any leeway for that, well, I do from people who know right. You don't see a lot of people who are insiders saying too much because what I say

is actually true. But then the funny criticism of me is and this is again because of maybe the way that people are spoken to who are Trump motors. You're either Trump or you're never Trump. And if you're never Trump, you're the dispatch. And no, what do you do with a guy who is hated by the never trumpers despies. I'm sure you knew, especially in twenty sixteen, I was hated, and because I was pretty ferocious, I ruffled a lot

of feathers. Twenty seventeen, still pretty hated because I was pro Trump and I was knocking metaphorically knocking heads of these dishonest conservative pipe piper leaders right. So to me, if I were Trump people, I would be worried. I would say, Okay, we know where Cerovic was. He's not there now. He's so far over Trump, and we need to find out why, and we need to fix up with the inter is that they don't want to engage with realities. So the realities I sent you an article

from twenty seventeen Foreign Policy magazine. So people go, you know, especially people who are new to politics, go, cernam it. You're never Trumper, You're a nobody, You're a loser without Trump or nothing, blah blah blah. And here's all I gotta say. I was under federal investigation by the National Security Advisor hr McMaster because my reporting into the sabotage efforts directed at Trump were so truthful and effective that they wanted to shut me down. The Ukraine whistle blower

who came up during that impeachment trial. I reported that this person was looking to get Trump set up on something, or to figure something out, or to find a way to get Trump out of office. I reported that in twenty seventeen, the name and everything which you can't even say lo and behold the name resurfaces. And oh, the same guy that I said in twenty seventeen was was gonna be a problem. Oh so years twenty seventeen, two years later, now you're in trouble for something that I

warned you about. So when people come at me with these ridiculous slander at this point, the idea that that um that I'm a never Trumper who doesn't know anything, it's actually the opposite. I was such a pro Trumper and I was explaining what was being done to sabotage Trump when he could have reversed chorus, and they didn't want to listen. So then in twenty eighteen, I said, I'm pretty much over this guy. There there's no real point and in doing this, right, what was the point

of Trump Agenda? I'm sorry my guess. I mean, did did the Trump Agenda get subverted by people that Trump brought into his orbit? Or was the apparatus and the deep state and the and the Democrat media just too much so that the promises were not able to be seen through? Right? What was it within Trump's control or was it external forces that are too much for anyone to be able to break through to fulfill all the promises or even the biggest promises of the agenda build

the wall, for example. Well, you know the answer to that. You were at Trump DC, and I'm sure you heard because we are there in the same era. The same thing that I heard is the only way to get hired and the Trump administration is to prove that you were never Trumper. In twenty sixteen and twenty fifteen, that was the quote unquote joke. Do you want a job in the Trump administration, you better prove that you were never Trump during his campaign and we saw it over

and over and over again. Who they put in charge of things at State Department. You know, you can talk to people like Amanda Militis is still loyal to Trump. She's still called him the president. She's still loyal. But you can ask her and she'll tell you, because again, what I say is not dishonest. They'll all tell you, Oh yeah, the people who are put in control, we're all never Trumpers. And people would go and say, why

are you hiring never Trumpers? And Trump would just sort of raised his hand, you know, yeah, how did that happen? Though you know you were there. How did that happen? How did never Trumpers take over the Trump administration? Seems bizarre. Trump never had any interest in getting into the weeds of how you create administration. Now. The excuse for that is, oh, when you come from the private sector, you hire people. Everybody shares a mission, everybody wants to make money. Oh,

poor Trump was naive, which I hate that line. I'm forty five. I don't know how you old you are forty one? Yeah, if you talked about me like that, I'd be insulted. Oh, poor Mike, helpless, little baby, he didn't know, he's so naive. I would be insulted. And that's how people talk about Trump like he said geriatric. Oh he just didn't know how vicious it was gonna be. Well, he didn't. I mean, he had people telling him this.

People like me were telling him this. A lot of people, probably people like you, were telling that to him, or a staff was at the very least, so there the whole always just he just never cared. He never gave a crap about sitting down and saying, Okay, I'm the president, now what can I do? How do I make this happen? He fell riding in the trap when firing flynned with

the Russia Gate stuff. He was distracted by all of this, these chaotic land minds going off about him, instead of saying, why don't I just hire people who like me and support me? And then of course Mike Pompeo started getting the security clearance. This pool of Trump supporters I was supporting that at the time didn't matter. He wasn't protecting his staffers. They were getting walked out from the National Security Council one by one. It was like a joke, like, oh,

who's getting fired today? Right? Rich Higgins rest in peace, who succumbed to various medical conditions a couple of years ago, was walked out of the National Security Council, brilliant guy because he was too hard on China. He wrote this memo explaining how China. All this is true. Now if you go read the Rich Higgens memo, everything he said is true. So Rich Higgins was warning people about the

Confucius Institute. He was warning people about how China is subverting the country via you know, university, and for that he got fired, walked out. So why are people getting walked out? Can I just tell you one thing that when I was in the CIA, that I used to say when they found out finally that I was leaving, they reached out and I had I didn't leave under

I wasn't angry or any of that. I just got, honestly a cooler opportunity for me at the time, which was the start of media career, which I wasn't looking for, but it found me. But I just remember telling them, I said, you know, guys, this is now, this is from an analyst side to be fair, but I said, one of the problems in our business, and I met this in the whole national security national security sphere overall.

If I was in DC, i'd say written large, because everybody in DC has to say written large all the time, has sound serious. But one of the things was that being right in the in the long run, meaning to be truly right, doesn't matter. It's being right in the office with the policymaker at the time of the discussion, such that they like you and they want you back.

The incentives are all wrong. And just to what you said about your friend, it doesn't matter who's right about the WMD, it doesn't matter who's right about us China, doesn't matter who. What matters is do the people making the decisions like you when you're a CIA officer, when you're an FBI, you know, senior counterintelligence guy. Whatever's that's why you have this This This plays out time and time again. Mike, Yeah, And people were explaining that to Trump,

but again he had no interest in learning this. So that's why I bring up I hate to be the old guy who was well. Back when I was in high school, I scored four touchdowns that's not what this is about, right. The reliving and glory days, those are actually quite stress quite stressful actually, when the entire intelligence community has singled out you, a civilian for political and or worse style assassination. So it's not like a glory it's more like I put my neck on the line.

All of these things I reported came out to be true. All of the excuses people make are not excuses. It's not Monday morning quarterbacking for me in twenty twenty two, to bring up twenty seventeen, when in twenty seventeen, I and other people but close to the president was saying, Hey, you got a problem here. You gotta get rid of certain people. Your loyal people are getting fired. They're trying to completely rework this into Hillary Clinton National Security Council.

You better, you better handle your business, right. I'll tell you. One of my frustrations, Mike, real quick about this is that Trump brought me in in May of twenty twenty. I thought it was because I was one of the first people to say I don't know. There were some others, you know, my friend Jesse Kelly, and there were a few people who very early on April twenty twenty, were like, this is crazy, open up, no mask, this is insane.

But I thought he want to talk about COVID, He want to talk about the intelligence community and some of the top people who were still in that I knew, you know, either personally or or well enough that I could weigh in on. And it was kind of funny. Now, granted, Trump thought he was gonna get four more years, so I respect, but there was a part of me that wanted to be like missus president, you know, you know me and he had known me since I was a kid.

He had actually Trump and his kids had known me since I was thirteen or fourteen years old in New York. Do you bring me in? Now it's been four years, you're asking me. I could have helped him avoid some of the deep state bear traps that he walked into. But he didn't ask my little while me didn't ask my opinion. You know, he brought in. Look, he brought in a bunch of swamp guys. He just did. And so you know, I sit here and I'm like, I you know, it's like if I were you know, you're

a dad. I'm hoping to be dad soon. I just got married if I told if I wanted to tell my kid, hey, you know, run this play on the football field, but he won't even listen to me. I can't even say it. And then he gets just annihilated and sacked and loses the ball, loses the football. That's how it felt to me. It's like, really, I don't know that was frustrating. Well no, it's really I didn't know that about you. And that's even more annoying to me because yeah, right, so you're you're at the Trump

DC Hotel. You're hearing the same things that I'm hearing, yeah, which is, oh yeah, got walked out today? Well why Well because some'm Clinton appointee wanted the jobs, so they got rid of the Trump person and they put a Clinton person in there. The intelligence community is indistinguishable under Trump that it would have been under a Clinton president.

Seeing you're like, oh another one. Wow. So it's like Friday night, like every Friday was a Friday night massac or you're at Trump Trump the Trump Hotel DC, and oh yeah that oh I'm out of a job now. And then of course there was no soft landing for

those people. So you saw this, you know, of course you could have and you know this, you could have just had Trump walk through Trump Hotel in DC when you know, when it was Trump Hotel when he was president, and just walking just people that he knew by side a name, you know, you me others, and it's been like, hey, guys, I'm thinking about bringing this guy in or gal to some very senior, very important post. What do you guys think?

And we could have said, you know, because we all knew, we would have said, sir, this is a person who it's just about them. There's no, it's not about service to the mission. It's certainly not about service to your agenda. But some that feedback mechanism. And I've tried to tell people this. It's like every time I felt like I

was trying to coach. And I have a much bigger platform now than I did during the Trump I meant to be fair, But every time I felt like, even from what I had, I was trying to coach Trump in the movement out of out of love for what was trying to be accomplished. I got shot. I got shot. Why don't you believe him? Four D chess? Shut up? Why aren't you with him? I'm like with him, I'm with him the way that you know the coach whose desperate to see his team win is with him. Like

what and that feedback mechanism being broken? I think was Look, I think it's it's why Trump isn't president right now, folks. I hate to be the one that has to say it. That's why we got four years of Biden and maybe four more, which I want to I want to talk to you about. It's like, actually, can we pause right there for second, Mike, while I I got to talk about our sponsor. But I want to come back to the Biden issue and where we're going. But My Pillow

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promo code buck. Get the easy Dreamsheets. Got a bunch of other products as well. All right, Mike, so I have another another premise here. I want to throw your away because you know, look, I'm just gonna say it, Mike is one of for those of you who are on Twitter, Mike is I think one of the most worthwhile Twitter follows that you can have because you don't always know what you're gonna get, but it is worthwhile. And I feel like that's such a rarity on the

right these days. There's so many people who it's just we're all like hamsters hitting the pedal. Right, it's like the same, Oh, this is what you know, this is the talking point, this is the talking point. You know you're you're with the movement, but you're not always aligned specifically with every individual part of it. And I find it interesting. And also we'll talk about some of the lifestyle and you know, life philosophy, I think is a better way of putting a life philosophy stuff that you

get into. So I think that's really important for the right and just for all of us. But I believe it. I believe that Joe Biden, you know, we spent a lot of time going haha, he's Seenisle and whatever. And look I do some of that too. I mean, you know, poking fun is poking fun. Um. I think he's going

to be formidable in reelection. And I think people that believe that this is going to be, you know, that Trump, let's say it is Trump, that Trump comes back and he's the nominee and it's going to be a walk in the park for him, I think that's delusional. And I think we all need to be very honest that

this is going to be a dog fight. Zero percent Trump wins in twenty against I mean, there's I'll take, you know, I want to make best I'll talk about, you know what kind of as they want to set, because that'll be the easiest money that I ever make in my life. No Desantz barely desands it would be a close call, but because there are issues with like I argue, an example, we don't need to go to the moon is made of green cheese. Are the infamous?

There was a server I mean you, I'm sure you remember as a former CIA analyst, some people were saying there was a server shootout involving the CIA in Germany for votes in twenty twenty. I was like, oh my god, yeah, we have a we have a real problem here and I don't know where we're going to do about it. But they can't I mean, they can't run ballots more

than once. You know, it's not hard to say, oh, we have a you know we're running the ballots and you know that there's a certain district that's going to be heavily favorite of Viden. You can't change it at the granduar level, but you can say I'll run this one a couple of times. There's there's there's nothing really

stopping that. That's why you need more poll watchers, which was a big issue in twenty twenty, the whole of the pipers in Georgia and then suddenly the Republican poll watchers were sent away and there was no real solution for that. So there's a lot of things that twenty twenty that aren't going to go away, and it's gonna intensify. And that's why you need Rohn to Santaz, who's gonna say, hey, Buck, what do you think? What do you think about twenty twenty?

And you're gonna say, well, there was no CIA shootout to steal the server. You know, the moon is not made of green cheese. But yeah, there are people doing double ballots. There are pull watchers or pull watchers were kicked out. That's gonna come up again. There is ballot harvesting that's going to be a big problem. They're going to these massive apartment complexes and maybe all folks homes, So we need to start looking at addresses because they're

filling out the ballots for senile people. That a lot of that was shown in twenty twenty. Right, Oh, here's a oh yet one hundred and fifty votes out of here and it turns out as a senior living center. Right, So there's a lot and because elections are so close, everything like that really does matter, and you need someone

who's going to focus on that. Well, this is the part of it that I also got very frustrated after twenty twenty because anybody who wants to talk about how we can find when there's illegal ballot harving, ballot harvesting, find that stop that. Anybody wants to talk about mail in ballot campaigns for Republicans, how we need to match fight fire with fire, and says, look at Florida, look at Rhndissantis just did in his reelection. Mail in ballots can be done. It can be done safely and securely,

but you need to get the stuff set up. I'm all about that. And looking for fraud and setting up systems to catch fraud, I'm all about that too. But whenever I say to them, at the end of the day, it's scoreboard, and if they put up the points and we can't prove that they cheated, thinking they cheated is one thing. Fine, Yeah, sure I think they cheated, But I think they always cheat. If we can't prove it, we lose. And this is just where we come to.

I mean, I had people in the months after the election, I'd be like, and I don't mean when Trump is still in office. I'm talking about you know, let's say April of twenty twenty one, I'd say, oh, you know, President Biden, and I'd be at live events. They say, don't call him that, he's not the president, and I'm looking at him like, guys, you know, he is the president. You can say he cheated and it sucks and I wish it weren't the case, but like you know, we

got we gotta pushed through this a little bit. And I just worry that the thinking of the twenty twenty obsession is going to be a big problem for us in twenty twenty four. And I try to tell everybody Joe Biden, look, yes, everything you say about him, he's a clown. His son is a disaster. They're criminals, they pedal influence. I mean, no one criticizes him and sees it I think more clearly than I do. I mean,

other people see it the same way. But Mike, he's gonna get forty nine percent of the vote, right, I mean, that's where we are. And I just need everybody on the right to understand that because I see these polls. Oh, people think Biden shouldn't run again. Guess what if he runs again, those people who are Democrats are going to vote for him without a second thought. We just had

an election That's why I tell people too. People send me polls here and there, and I go, we just had a midterm, brother, Why are we talking about polls a few months after a midterm? Yeah? Right, that's how I feel about polls. This sixty one percent of the country says that it's going to the wrong direction. Great, we had an election and ste of the electorate didn't vote Republican. We didn't have that slave that we thought. It was all very close, hotly contested elections. Bobert almost

sawst hearsy it was. It was brutal, and again without the Santest and Zelden, it very well may have been a narrow majority under Nancy Pelosi for another two years. So I don't know the poll And this is again my biggest problem with the right, and probably this spoils into my overall life philosophy. We if you have an audience, you have to be a leader, and you have to lead your people in the right direction. You do not pander to their delusions because you want another click, you

want another retweet or whatever. I've never pandered to everything I've said, even the things which are even the crazy things I've said, are aging better than maybe I thought it's because I believe it and I want to steer my people in the right direction and telling telling our people, oh yeah, sixty one percent Biden wrong direct. I say, shake them up. Did you not pay attention to what

has happened? Two hundred and twenty two seats? And it turns out, Santos, we're gonna just plan on losing that one. So you need to just be thinking already, how are you gonna get bobert reelected? Double recounts? Right, barely, that's how close everything is going to be. Every vote counts Orange County, there's still one seat shy of where it

was before the ballot harvesting of twenty eighteen. So even though the California GOP has gained ground and retook a bunch of the seats that were wrongfully taken in twenty eighteen, there's still sheets a seat shot. I was thinking of sheets. I was thinking of the guys a dreams sheets actually, but it's the electoral seats. And that's what we have to do, is you shake our people up, you guys. You need to focus on the right issues. I think

that's that's essential. I want to ask a question. We'll old because I have to have to give a word to our sponsor for a second. Mike, But when come back, I want you to address this. Why is Mike Cernovich

considered so controversial? I want to can we can we get into that a little bit, because you know, I follow your Twitter and I'll sometime say it, even sometimes people in the right like, oh, well, I never get really, oh Cernovich, he's so controversial, like the other people in the black helicopters are gonna come and kidnap me because I follow Cernovich on Twitter and like some of the stuff.

We'll get back back into that in a second. But the tone of the Towers Foundation, I'm sure so many of you heard about it does phenomenal work, really important work, keeping the obligation, the debt of honor that we have to America's heroes. The Foundation honors fallen and severely injured heroes and their families with mortgage free homes. This year alone, hundreds of gold Star and fallen first responder families with children and our nations most severely injured veterans and first

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I often say I'm probably the most widely read person that people won't admit that they read because I'll say something no one else had ever said, And then all of a sudden that's circulating widely and largely the reason I'm controversial or seeing that way is in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, I viewed the presidency as an existential crisis and stopping Hillary Clinton was the most important thing that I could have ever possibly have done with my life.

And I didn't have kids. I honestly didn't care if that election killed me. I didn't where I was at the time. We would have been in World War three with Syria and Hillary Clinton one. So as much as I you know Trump this all the criticism is buffered by the fact that we prevented World War three by working to elect Trump, and everyone should feel good about that for humanity. It was one of the greatest gifts that we could have given humanity in our lives, and

Trump deserves all the credit for that. But if twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, I was pretty mean, if you were a you know, conservative, was the term like, we've we fought viciously and we weren't We weren't nice to people, So I made a lot of enemies, which, as you know, that's not a good way to be an influencer or a media personality. It's not good. Like late, I think Jordan Peterson has been doing things to sabotage the right.

Who's going to criticize Jordan Peterson. Accept me. Nobody can say that I'm wrong, right, Everybody in my notifications when I said, well, wait, why is Jordan Peterson calling out Christian rufo Into Santez for trying to reform higher education when Jordan's whole brand is the far left? Is it going too far? Well, okay, so, but legislative action is happening,

and now you suddenly have a problem. No one else but me is gonna say that, because well, one then you're gonna get You're not gonna be on the podcast circle. You know. I'm I'm persona on Garrata because Jordan Peterson is a you know, perfect saint. But you notice, if you ever read the replies, nobody says cert of it's you're factually incorrect. They go, oh, you're jealous. His book sells more than you. Blah blah blah. Which is you know, and anybody who knows can attest. I'm not trying to

ever get on anyone's podcast. I always say, find an email on me. Try trying to be on someone's podcast, right, that's so far from where I don't want to do. But there's no one who if I think you're steering the right in a bad direction or the country in a bad direction. I don't care how popular you are. I don't care if you have this halo effect on you. So I'll criticize Trump and Jordan Peterson the same tweet,

and then that that then I'm controversial. Now Osernovich is at it again, rather than just say okay, well, but is he actually correct though? Is this this is a correct point? So live it is vibe and aura because I go, I mean, I go hard. That's why I don't play um. I don't ask for sympathy or a pity party because I do go hard and people people go hard back to me. But that's more where you know why people see me as controversial, because yeah, I

do go, I do go hard. If I think you're you're up to something that's steering the right wing in a wrong direction, then I'm gonna come at you in a way that other people won't. Speaking of the Jordan Peterson, I mean, one thing that I do think is getting a lot more attention. There's Jordan Peterson, and then more recently there's been Andrew Tate, who, as I speak to you, is still in prison. They have leveled all these allegations against him. He's an American citizen who has not been

afforded time before a judge. They're just holding him. He says, he's innocent. The charges are are very serious. But we know that he was speaking, particularly in the last six months or so, a lot about what it means to be a man, what young men should hear. And people said, oh,

we set all these terrible things the past. I say, oh, well, that that may well be true, but there is still a need, regardless of any individual, regardless of any influencer, to look at the all out assault on masculinity and this is a real thing. We're all aware of it that is underway. Toxic masculinity as a term is something that kids are learning in school and being taught that they should be aware of. Do you think the right is doing is beginning to do enough? I guess say, hey,

you know, have we the term woke? You know, whenever I say have we awoke in I'm gonna be like, oh, well, not wokeness, but are we h waking up to the all out assault on masculinity and gender as part of the leftist program as something that is an intentional part of strategy. That realization m was part of why Trump won in twenty sixteen because he was seen as someone who really kind of unders So that that's why I think that Trump's most recent nasty comments about the Santaest

is just going to fail. Right, Oh, here's the Santist at a graduation party, and they're like, oh, okay, so here's a young de Santest and doing a normal thing. And now so now they're trying to flip that, which is what I by the way, I have no I have no tolerance for the Oh he was a twenty three year old teacher who posed in a photo with some of his students and like maybe one of them had a beer. Let's let's charge it with some let's let's allege or insinuate some kind of sexual impropriety. That

is that is bleeping garbage to do, and everybody knows it. Yeah, and it was a graduation party, so you know, as you know now it's a different era. But yeah, you go, oh, that's our high school teacher come to a graduation party. That wasn't a weird thing. And if you actually because the New York Times they reported all of this and they said he didn't try anything. He didn't do anything. He just showed up to a graduation party. The kids are like, oh, hey, how are you doing. How you doing, teacher?

And he's like hi and walks away. And then the New York Times, the New York Times couldn't even turn that into anything, right. So if you go back and read it, when they tried that, everybody said, oh, yeah, nothing weird happened. Oh but in hindsight, he shouldn't have done it, right, that's where they lend it to. So

that just shows that people playing into that narrative. They're playing into the left wing narrative, which is that, okay, so if you're a twenty three year old or twenty two to twenty four year old man and you're with an adult woman just in the room, you're a groomer. Now, where did that come from? That's left wing orthodoxy right there. So that's where the people have again lost a plot

that's not I'm gonna work. But that shows how deep the memes are now when people on the right don't realize, oh, yeah, I'm actually being played, or for example, the the Andrew Tate thing, Now people are if you go read those articles, boy, the headlines don't match what's in the story. The headline is the latest BBC one I read was oh, and I'm in trouble for the Andrew Tait thing too, because we've had cigars together too. So that's another reason I'm controversial.

So I've been embroiled in scandal after scandal where that because I've smoked cigars with Andrew Tate. I have to you know, I have to either disavow him and convict him or I'm like to wait a minute, why don't you read the articles. The latest BBC article was a woman who said that, oh, yeah, I did cam and he gave me half the money, but I felt like he manipulated me. Oh and she had done sex work before and then she left and they broke up. Right,

So the headline is Andrew Tate abusive boyfriend, manipulator. Okay, well maybe this is finally, maybe they have something finally, And then you read it and I go, wait a minute. So he had a relationship with a sex worker. He tried to get into camp, she didn't want to. Eventually she did. He split the money with their fifty fifty. She decided their relationship was toxic. That goes both ways. Relationships with men and women are both toxic. That happens

regardless agenda. And then she broke up with them and left. It's like, okay, but we're being told that the Tape Brothers are the real life Taked movie. That's the narrative. The narrative is they're kidnapping people. The narrative isn't that they're bad boyfriend. Human traffick. Human trafficking is the allegation they're using human trafficking, which is which is a heinous crime, right, something people should go to prison for decades for Haine

is crime. I mean to the human trafficking allegation. I've also read in just in the stories that there are people that are allegedly human trafficked who are coming and going on video as they please with cell phone owns and buying designer handbags. So right, if if that's if that's human trafficking, I know, I do think you start to get to well, is it the is the coercive Is it just the psychological brainwashing creates the coercive force? But how do you measure that? Yes, And we need

to talk about that because that's the latest. That's the latest ploy the late because two of these, two of the women who are free and walking around, they're the victims. And the Ukrainian judge said, oh, you've been brainwashed by the man. That's all left wing. So the left wing now, that's why I was so disgusted by Trump's tweet referring to the santests. And that is grooming. Oh so we're the left now. And if you're an adult man with a woman who's eighteen or older, you are now a groomer.

Groomors what happens to children, right, Grooming is at something that you do not I personally, if I'm twenty four and I'm a high school teacher at that era, you just go to a graduation party because you don't think anything of it because you're actually not a scumbag. Right, If you're a scumbag, you wouldn't say like, oh, take a picture of me because I want I want proof that I can your graduation. It'd be the opposite. But that is left ing. Orthodoxy is they're going back now.

And you can see this in a lot of the cases. And the theory. The theory is that if you're you're so man, your man brain is so powerful and then by extension, the female brain is so manipulable that men are now emotionally manipulating women into doing things the woman doesn't want to do, and even if she doesn't leave, and in fact, by not leaving, that proves your man brain is so strong that you're able to exercise this mind control over you know, fully formed adult women. That's

where it is. Because yeah, these two women said they were on video and they're like, oh, yeah, you know Andrew, he was nice, we love them and everything. And I thought to myself, well, you could find how how would I know this isn't just two random Romania women? How do I know these are the two women in the court case? Because for me, I feel like I have a duty to present if the Tates are being railroaded, I have a duty to say something. Right. So I saw that video and I even tweeted, how could I

know these women are really his girlfriends? Right? How do you know? And then you read the court Oh yeah, as it turns out they are. They told the judge we don't want anything to do with this, and the judge said, too bad. I didn't realize, by the way, you were so up on this story. Do you believe the Tates are being railroaded. Well, I certainly believe based on what I've seen that the evidence is not matching

the allegations and the media. Because if you're telling me there are six victims and two of them have said we're not, and you're saying we don't care. If they say they're not, they still are, then that means that a lot of pressure has been applied, probably to the other four. I did see this, by the way, and one of the reports there were women who have come forward who are considered to be some of the human trafficking victims, who have told the court and this is

on record or told the authorities. I should say, police, that's laughable. We meaning these two women, I think there are six that we were absolutely not human traffic human trafficking victims. That is reported right now, right, So we know for a fact two of six say we're not, and we know the judge said we don't care you are. So what's they say about the other four? Were they leaned on, were they pressured? Were they real last why?

I would like to see evidence? So then the BBC goes, oh, we met one of the Tate's old girlfriends, and he's a terrible, terrible guy. And then I go, okay, well let's read the article. And that's the article I just mentioned. Do you think the Biden administration is putting pressure on Romania in this regard? Is that just too far fetched? People have reached out to me to say they think

that that is an element here. If you believe the Tates are being railroaded, and we need to say that's an if do would you believe that the Bidenministra Asian may have a hand in that. I think that it's more subtle than that. I think that, just like the DNC doesn't have to tell Twitter to take take things down,

the FBI does. I think with the Tates, you had guys who were trying to be basically tweet out rap lyrics right whenever people go, oh, here's this horrible video way Andrew take I say, you know what, if you're like me and you want to ban pornography and you don't believe rap music should be listened to because you

think you're hypnotizing yourself to negive lyrics. If you want to ban I don't know what you heard about me, but I'm a pimp from the radio, then I'm really interested in what you have to say about offensive videos. So we're gonna ban Snoop Dogg the pimp. We're gonna be in all that rap music that talks about pimping. Right, Oh no, no, you don't want to do that. Oh you don't want to be in pornography or less interesting.

So you participate in pornography, your watch it. But then if a man is involved in the production, now he's a rumor trafficker. Even if the woman said you willingly did it, and if you talk like a rapper, then that has to be taken is true? But rap music, right, you see, there's no coherence to it. So what I think happened is pretty simple. You're the Tates. You want to get known, You make exaggerated claims, and then you start saying that you're bribing government officials that you're not

really bribing. What do you think is going to happen? Right? That falls into the category of what do you think is going to happen? You're embarrassing people, You're embarrassing powerful people.

I'll tell you that there are people on the right who when Tate was talking about how the corruption works in his favor and this just I draw in my background in the CIA and learning a lot about other governments, which is the most fascinating part of being in the CIA, because obviously we got a lot of info, you know, other government, We do have more sophisticated technology, We do get a view that they don't want us to have obviously.

And the one thing that will get you in trouble in a corrupt country is bragging about the corruption in that country that you say is in your favor. That that's like, it's like the first rule of fight club is never talking about fight club. You're in a corrupt country, Eastern Europe, anywhere else in the world, and it's working out for you, It's going to stop working out for you the moment that you say, oh, yeah, the corruption

here benefits me. I think. I think the tates that's a that's a lesson from this process, irrespective of everything else, you know, the whether they're pressure being brought to bear to bring these charges, etc. Whether they're guilty or not, which I don't know and I don't profess to know, um, but I do think that you don't want to talk about corruption in a corrupt country if you're if you're planning on staying there, right, if you're really doing it too,

which makes me believe that they it was just I think it was just all an act. I thought there. I think they're trying to be real life rappers. They were, they were mimicking what rappers say and that because if you're really bribing people and bragging about it, then I have to reconsider my view of you, right, And there's nothing about the Tates that indicates that they're not that they're low IQ. Right. You can say they're evil, you can say you can say whatever, that's a moral judgment.

You can say they're evil, but nobody has ever said they're not that. I don't know Tristan really, but I mean i've just from what I've seen in interviews with Andrew, he's a he's clearly a high IQ individual like that. That is obvious. Right, So if you're high IQ, you're bribing government officials, would brag about bribing government officials, right,

That's kind of how I see it. And then, of course people who don't like the Tastes have to wrestle with the corruption issue, namely that the Tastes were arrested in March twenty twenty they were released the next day because apparently video evidence cleared them. Then they get re arrested in December. Okay, so was Ukraine corrupt in March when they let them go? Are they corrupt? Now? Why

aren't they being tried? Why are they being held? You know, because Ukraine has this weird system where you can be charged but not really tried. Is this limit? Yeah, remain there, They're in remaining and they can be held. I think you can be held. I read that you can be held for up to a year without actually having a trial. A year I mean now J six J six defendants can apparently in DC be held for about eighteen months

in solitary for in some cases non violent crimes. So you know, we're gonna poke it romaaning on this one and say, oh my god, oh my god. But as we know, if you get on the wrong side of the deep state in this country, that can happen to you.

But I wanted to ask you though, on a more on a more positive and constructive note, four young men, because one thing, one thing that I can tell does really rattle the left is when young men have this moment of recognition that the left wants them to be miserable, unhappy, week controlled and uh, you know effectively, you know, low T, low IQ, do what you're told, triple mass, get your seventh booster shot, and you know, sit there, call yourself

a male feminist. Don't excel, don't exceed, don't you know, suppress all your masculine urges. And the right actually has people, by the way, like you and others who are saying, no, actually being a man is what you are meant to do, and that that inspires I think young men. I think

there's something important there. Well, that's where I had to thread the needle that I find interesting too about the Tate thing, because the Tates were giving a message of that I don't even agree with, which is, oh, you need a car, need the watches, you need the swag. And I realized they were just doing that for marketing.

So that's why I think the Tate thing is such an interesting phenomena, because a right wing critique of the Tates would be, well, if you're chasing watches and cars, you're actually chasing left wing secular hedonism, right, You're not.

You're not teaching. And I realized it takes it more and I'm gonna have the tape people, Matt, I love this because I'm gonna have the Tate haters man, because they're gonna say I defended him, and I'm going to have to take super fans mad because they're saying that I'm like somehow attacking them. Right. But the way I look at it is that we I You know, you don't ever see me front and you don't ever see

me flexing. You don't want to do that. Which you want to teach young men is find your purpose, find your mission. You're allowed to have one. You don't have to live for women, because too much of a conservative Christian movement, unfortunately, is oh, you're a man, you know your job is to be like a pack mule, loads yourself up and well where it's not even necessarily biblical, right,

So where are you even getting at the Bible. So there's a there's a third way, which is masculinity is about finding your mission and finding your purpose, waking up and trying to accomplish something right, trying to fight with the dragons, trying to wrestle with the oppression, trying to

have some vibe right, some aura. So much of that, so much of it is a feeling and that's what men not only need to be told, but that's what people like us have to try to model in our own way, which is, hey, look, man, you're gonna get beat up. People are gonna say stuff about you. This nasty.

I've been attacked over lines of blue and tape. Imagine the same three weeks you're attacked for allegedly the human trafficking thing, and then allegedly for knowing somebody who is allegedly maybe has an alternative narrative on her own traffing story, right, and but you just but that's where you just as a man, you just say, man, this is part of life. Right. How lucky it is that we get to do this

all day and we get to take these attacks. Imagine how our lives could have ended up so differently or so much less interesting than I do think that's important. I do think that the same way that if you believe in you know the duality that is that essential to our existence. Right, If you believe in heaven, you believe in hell. If you believe in good, you believe

in evil. With those with the basic framework for understanding or day to day lives in place or our existence, I should say you're going to piss some people off, because if there are if there's evil in the world, there are people doing evil, and if you're going to do something about it, you're going to upset those who are wrong. You're going to upset those who are making

the world a worst place. So, while you know, I don't go out there looking to stick my thumb in the eye of people, there are people whose hatred or disdain or whatever is a badge of honor. And I do feel that way, right And you know you're smiling. You do enjoy poking your finger. It's okay to admit that, Okay, Okay, that's true, Okay to tell It's okay to tell men you know what, conflict is good, but it needs to

be conflict for the right cause rights. It's okay to have a little bit of indignation if it's righteous Indi Nation. It's not okay to be a Karen. It's not okay to be crying over nonsense. It's not okay to hate women or to say because you have some bad dating

experiences at all, women are like that or is. And it's not okay to just be a pack mule, to let get walked on either conflict is okay, but you need to again find that purpose within yourself elf and then find out that this is a righteous cause, and then conflict is good and it's necessary, and I think it's very healthy and it's very masculine. One thing I

want to ask you about. You know, there's this trend I'm sure you've seen of women shaming men for allegedly looking at them in the gym, right if you've seen this, and this has got a lot of attention recently. There's a lot of things I would say by this. I mean I go to a gym down here in Florida where I've never experienced this before in New York City, but there are a lot of women in the gym who are you know. I just got married recently too, so I've got the blinder song. But there are a

lot of women in the gym who are influencers. Some of them are known to other Jim staffers, for example, as having very lucrative only fans careers, things like that, and so that's very common here in South Florida at

certain gyms. You're just gonna look at this where for people look a certain way, they have to spend a certain amount of time in the gym, and I get all that, but I worry that women are are not being given good messages and a variety of ways about their beauty, and that it is now being it is now thought of more than ever as a commodity, meaning the monetizeable, that your sexuality and your beauty as a woman is a monetizeable asset first and foremost beyond anything

else instead of something. So yes, of course, be charity. You know you have a lovely wife. I have a lovely wife. I would say, you know, you can trust a guy with a lovely wife. But that's the point is actually to to appreciate beauty and too also to see it for what it is. And for a lot of these women, I think to find a great I mean, you know, we're supposed to say life partner, but husband, I mean to find somebody to build a life with.

And attraction is important in all of this. And I just think that now you have a lot of these women who one are very insecure even though they're very good looking, because there there's a hyper focus on it because of social media. And two it's just like an ATM machine now and they wait until they're forty and then they turn around they're like, well, I'm so beautiful now I want my husband gets a lot harder. Well, it gets yeah, it gets a lot harder for a man. Two.

And that's something that I've noticed that when you watch videos. One actually good TikTok trend is they go and ask older people, oh, how old are you, and they'll say, I'm sixty five. What's sixty five feel like? And one of the themes is that you see the world the same way, but you're old now, right, And if you're a man, you usually have more self awareness and realize, Okay,

I'm gonna I'm an old, old guy now. And for oftentimes the women, it's harder to make that transition, which is in your mind, like you know, you're forty one on forty five, and our minds were still like twenty five, right, And that's actually how men get injured doing things because you're like, oh, I no, no. My wife asked me earlier to climb a tree and I was like, I'm not going to climb that tree. She goes, well, I go because if I fall down, I'm gonna hurt. Man.

You know, if I were we're still there. Yeah, yeah, keep going. Yeah, And so the world looks at you differently, and a lot of people have to accept that. But as to the gym thing, it's like a lingerat show Man. Sometimes it really is ridiculous. One gem I going. I started going on a different hour because I don't I don't want to just have those curient thoughts like I don't watch pornography. I try to avoid the ig. I changed my algorithm so I don't see you know, all

that kind of stuff. Go ahead, No, no, no no, I don't want to interrupt you. I just I think this is so important for men while while while promoting masculinity. And look, I'm the first to admit I drank too much in my twenties. I should have worked out more, I should have gotten more sleep, you know, twenties in into my thirties, I you know that there were some

things that I would change definitely about my behavior. I will say I've actually never said this before on radio or on podcasts, but I made the decision, maybe it was about fifteen years ago, to just just no pornography, just like not you know, just no pornography, because I really started to feel like there was a desensitization that occurs from it where you can appreciate, you know, just everyday female beauty. And I think that it really does

damaging things to the male mind. Um if especially if you make it a habit of looking at at pornography. And I still feel like to this day when you say that, people think, oh, are you like, are you a puritan? Do you wear like the shoes with the little buckles on them? Whatever? It's like but appured in at all. I'man sitting here talking about like hot chicks

in the gym. But but I do think that every you know, that that balance and context and and understanding habits in which are habituated to as a man is really important and it's and it's the grating too, I think. So for me, I went through large phases where I didn't I didn't watch yet, and then I would get in a bad phase and then I wouldn't watch it, and then I just gave it up once and for all because it just not to be too crude. But I just I think it's undignified to turn on a

laptop and get moisturized. It's just disgusting. You're like, this is just like there there's if there's a night and I'm eating a bag of chips on the couch, I'm just like, you're a disgusting person, you know, like, who are you like? And I get up and you know, there's just an idea that if you're a man, you should have some kind of basic level of dignity. And you know, laying around with pringles in your face, it's just a gross way to live. And the same thing too,

is up gonna fire up the old laptop. That's gross. Man, you don't want to live like that, right, You are capable of so much more as a man. How do you? Totally I totally agree with you. And I think that people on the right should feel more just, people in general should feel guys in general should feel more comfortable talking about how the I think one of the ways that the apparatus tries to control you is actually is actually through the desensitization of the twenty four seven access

to pornography, and the normal is a of that. Like there's just you know, for a long time, people forget there was more porn being watched on the Internet than literally anything else I mean, right, and again, I know it sounds like I'm like, you know, like church lady, like, why are all the people watching the porn? It's like, no, that's not That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say it's not good for the guys who

are doing it. As somebody who appreciates female beauty and thinks that you know, having a you know, having an attractive girlfriend or a wife or whatever something that should be aspirational for men. And you know, attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder and all that, and I get that too, but um, I think that this is an area where there could be a lot, a lot

more done. Mike. I could talk to you for like three hours, but I'm not quite at the level yet, like like the Rogan three hour long podcast, So we're gonna have to have you back further time. I just wanted what what what it makes you feel positive about the future, and that you think people should hear, And then I want you to tell everybody where they should go to follow your work and just sort of see

what you're what you're up to these days. Well, what makes me feel positive about the future is always remember what had the one hundredth anniversary. Well recently we had the one hundredth anniversary of the end of World War One, and I always encourage people to go read about that war and what our lives would have been like if we had been a draftable age, and that in the Battle of Psalm, and learn more and more and more about World War One. Do you have a favorite World

War One book? Yeah, Paul Fussell wrote a book. He also wrote a book class about it. And I forget the book title, but Paul Fussell's book on World War One is my favorite because I sent a lot of poetry and a lot of the literary devices at the time, and the death tolls are literally incomprehensible. Would be like, right now, well that happened, Okay, it's one hundred thousand men dead. That makes me optimistic. Also why we have to make sure we don't bumble our way into it

with Russia and Ukraine, because we bumbled into it. So that is really is still the best time to be alive. Man. All this, oh there's a war on men. This all that true? You would still never ever ever have one have been born in another air because there's a man You can create your own destiny, right, I don't believe in living the life of a Heatonist. But if you wanted to live a life of Roman emperor as a man,

you could. You could do that. And don't do that, guys, I don't think that's a good way to live, but you could. There's no there's never been a time in the history of the world where you, as a man can really choose your own adventure if you want to work for it. And every day I'm grateful because look at us, we're talking like this. Now, this would have

been impossible. We'd have been working the fields as medieval peasants, right. Yeah, we're hanging out talking and hundreds of thousands of people are gonna hear our conversation, maybe benefit from it a little bit and be able to say, you know, I learned something or I have a different perspective on things. And we didn't even have to leave our houses to

do it. It's really pretty crazy. And then people are able to listen to so even if they have a job that's maybe a little bit boring, Well, I had boring jobs too, and you didn't have pot. You had a portable CD player if you were lucky, a walkman or something. So there's never been a better time to be alive, and people should recognize that which they follow all things Cernovich. My substack is pretty good Mike Cernovich dot substack dot com and then Twitter at Cernovich. But

the substack we're doing things very little politics. They are much more culture, family, trying to scare things in a

different direction. Awesome, Mike, great talking to you man. Ever since we hung out that time at the Trump Hotel, I figure we're going to be able to do a long form and we'll have you back because there's a lot more I'm sure people, and I hope people will tell me what else they want you and me to talk about in the future, and as this podcast continues to grow in addition to you know, the radio show I do, which fortunately is rather substantial, So we're going

to keep keep this going. Mike, thank you so much for your time, and it's great to see you. Thanks. Brother,