Michael Malice: Taking The White Pill

but I did read it. The White Pill a tale of good and evil, and I think there's a lot of lessons. There's a lot of great history in this, Michael,

which I really appreciate. I think one of the areas, even for people in this country who think of themselves as history bufficer or what have you, the actual history of the Soviet Revolution and more broadly, what was really going on in the Soviet Union is a massive, massive hole in the education of American history, I think, and your book, again right here, goes a nice way to

addressing some of that gap. I think that's also partly by design that there's this massive hole, because what we're taught in schools, we like to have a nice little narrative that there's the good guys and the bad guys, and the Founding Fathers were all the good guys, and the Brits were the bad guys, and then the North were the good guys and the South were the bad guys. And then world War Two the Allies where the good guys and the Axis were the bad guys. Now it's

clear that the Axis were the bad guys. But we're partners with Stalin, and if you start getting into too much of what Stalin did, all of a sudden that little good guys bad guys thing falls apart, and I think that does an enormous disservice. As a friend of mine pointed out, which genocidal ideology should I be more worried about the one that lost or the one that won.

So I think it's important for especially conservatives, who kind of often have this incorrect idea that things started getting bad twenty years ago, and all these different organizations, whether the universities or Hollywood or Washington, were somehow co opted by the left. This is not only not new, but what had been going on, especially in the thirties. It was so much worse, is so much more depraved in many ways than what we're facing now that I thought

it was important to put forward. You know exactly what half of the world effectively went through. And it saddens me that so many people, and obviously I was born in the Civil Union, so many people and what they went through is being forgotten when this is a victory that happened in the lifetimes of pretty much everyone listening

to this show. Yes, you could definitely argue the greatest in terms of population and number of people, the greatest liberation of humanity to freedom from abject tyranny occurred in your lifetime and in my lifetime, and it's really not thought of in that context. I think, I think nearly enough. I don't think people understan and you know, we think we have a bit of a cartoonish view. And look, I love Rocky for I'm not saying it's not a

really fun movie. But you know, the Soviets, I think in retrospect or thought of almost more as um and the whole Soviet system as you know, poor but poor, buffoonish, oh fish. You know, we have all these these this this notion of the Commissar whether it's in It's in um the Hunt for Red October, or you know, any of the any of the pop culture, it's always some

fat Russian guy with a bunch of metals on. There's like I'm during going vodka, and it's like these people were actually sending women and children and and and everybody to effectively extermination camps in Siberia and to mass imprisonment and to mass torture, and it's not thought of him quite that way. And I think your book explores that. I also think it's important for you to continue to tell people why is that, Michael, Why why is it

that the there's always a soft pedaling of the Soviet atrocity. Well, I think one of the big reasons, and I'm confident that you'd agree, is that so many people in the West had had blood on their hands as a consequence. Despite what you know political when the New York Times might tell you in twenty twenty three, there was never a strong Nazi presence in the United States. This is not a thing. You had the button, but they were

basically kind of marginalized in a joke. There was very much a very strong not just communist in the sense of oh, I believe in communism is an ideal, but literally many people answering directly to Stalin and the far side of what later became the Iron Curtain, and the one time when they were accountable for their actions. The fact that you know, we gave someone who's killed millions of his own countrymen, got handed the Adam bomb, and

things like this. The fact that so many of these Western outlets are still in power today, are still treated with respect today, is I think a major reason why this is soft pedaled. There's a great quote in the book that I found. You know, we were all told that, you know, the night the McCarthyism, you know which hunts, and you know a play right, I'm like in her name? She was like, But there weren't which is in Salem.

But there were these communists. These were people actively and intentionally members of an organization dedicated to secretly and to violent overthrow of the United States government in the service of what had been at the time the most evil or maybe one of the two most evil governments on earth. So it's never framed in that way, and I think I did what little I could do to point out exactly what it was that was so bad about their views.

It's not that they're just look, I'm for equality and you know, buck, everyone has to have a job and we need more housing please, you know, it is so removed from that. It is defending people being tortured. It is defending children being taught in school to turn their parents into the police, even if they their parents have retribution and kill them. It is starvation for political purposes.

It is mass deportation of many people from their ancestral lands in order to break them and for the sake of the common good, so that they're subservient to the state. None of these things are discussed in the West, and frankly, I think in many ways it's a failure of conservatism where you know, the worst thing that often is said about about communism is that it's godless. But it's so it's not just godless, it's downright satanic. Yes, no, it

goes beyond that. There's a there's a sadism. And actually that's for anybody. And you there's so many really poignant anecdotes in the book about you know, for example, the little girl. This is from Michael's book. There's a little girl who is outside in a breadline, we always think of the Soviet breadlines, and again we have this this sort of mentality of its people. You know, they're in the babush gun. It's sad, and they're in line there.

It's like, well, actually, the guy at the front of the line sees a girl who's part of the Kulak class because they're all online waiting for food, right, and hits her with an ife and kicks her in the stomach and she dies right there, a little girl who's starving,

that dies in front of everybody. And his response to this, as you write in the book, is you know, well, you know, you never know where the class enemies are going to come from, right, or there's something you know, this is another sign of the weakness of our class enemies. There's no humanity, there's no decency, And that's just that. That's a a vignette that I think exposes um so much more of us. I mean, for example, the Gulag Archipelago, which people you know Orwell is amazing and gets a

lot of credit. Though Orwell was kind of a slowly reforming socialist himself, or reforming at all. He was a hardcore socialist to the day he died. Well, he went less, He went less less socialist. I think, I would argue he was starting to see the problems of a socialist system. He said explicitly, every word I write is in defense of democratic socialism. I don't understand it democratic socialism, right, you're gonna tell ye not. Well, I mean, but this is no. But this is the game they play all

the time, like what's it? Dive seen Bernie Sanders and Stalin. One is democratic socialism and one is you know, socialism socialism. So no, I actually I do think that there's some there's some game that maybe it's false, but there's a game that's played with the moderation of what the socialist intent actually is. And Orwell recognize that a truly empowered socialist state now national socialist state. But that would be a whole other conversation too, created the horrors that he

wrote about. Anyway, I didn't want to get into the Orwell discussion as much as I just wanted to say, souls and Eats in I think is as important an author and is probably assigned in school you know one percent as often or you know one tenth maybe as often, and you know souls and eats in I think in the Gulag Archipelago, the thing that really strikes people is just how evil people in this system were willing to be every day and it was nothing and no one cares.

It wasn't just they're willing, they're excited. This was their channel who however, somebody else that people who are arrested for political purposes were told explicitly, you are lower than rapists and murderers because they're still people. You're an enemy of the people, And it was encouraged, and we see this still to this day in North Korea. It is you're encouraged to be cruel and vindictive and make them suffer because you're the good guys and there's something far

beneath human. This is something obviously very mirrored in Nazi ideology. So it's extremely you know, it's extremely disturbing when you look at historically what these systems mean in practice, right, because you know, there's this whole idea of what communism is great in theory but bad in practice. What everything is great in theory, what does that even mean? Like, what kind of idea is bad in theory. It is practice where you determine whether an idea is good or not.

And when we saw, over decades, over how many countries, what this meant for the average person. You know, children chained to cribs because they were handed over by their starving parents, who were told the government can raise them better than they could, who gave up uncrying because they knew no one was going to come to pick pick them up. You and I and pretty much everyone listening

to the show can sit all day long. And if we try to, like rack our brains for how sadistic we could be, we would never think of half these things because our brains aren't wired like this. We're not raised in cultures where it's considered appropriate at least yet to turn power against the weak and those who we don't like and just do just the most vindictive, vicious

things and pat ourselves in the back for it. I want to bring this into our current context a little bit, actually, and I make the argument to people, and I can

tell that it's it's really uncomfortable for them. But you know, you and I were in contact a lot during the COVID and what was going on in New York and the lockdowns, and I try to remind everyone that there was to your point about almost a glee, like there was a leave that some people took in the extreme of it all, and there was a clear joy that you would see in the eyes of people, just in the eyes who were masked police, for example, walking around

or telling you why aren't you're close to me? Social distancing they took. They took some level of joy and treating their fellow human beings as though they were unclean one and also that they could lord it over them in some way. Yes, and I say to everybody, you know, okay, yeah, it wasn't you know, they weren't hurting us off into camps. I mean, they started to do something like that in Australia.

They obviously did do that in China, but it also was a virus with a real fatality rate, a real fatality rate of you know, point zero two maybe point zero zero two, depends on whose numbers now you want to believe. Spanish flew had a five percent fatality rate in the United States back when nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen, nineteen twenty. So I feel like if people were willing to do that for something that wasn't that extreme, that we're actually much closer to falling into a full blown

totalitarian society in America than anybody had previously realized. One of the big delusions I think a lot of people have is that America's magic in the sense that these things that happened in other countries can't possibly happen here. And I think a lot of people, especially on the right, when they looked at how their fellow countrymen acted during COVID, had a big wake up call as to how many

people really regard liberty as their highest value. And what we saw and I learned in my research for The White Pill is in East Germany they had an enormous the biggest informant network the world I'd ever seen, thanks

to the Stazi, which was their secret police. And after the wall fell and Germany was reunified, just the beautiful, beautiful scenes and some of my favorite parts of the book, you know, the Stazi archives were opened and a reporter spoke to one of these former Stazi recruiters and Buck, you and I probably thought, I certainly thought that, Okay,

here's how it works. They capture me and they're like give me five names or else we're going to kill your family, And like, Buck, I love you, but if I got to drop your name to save my family. It's going to happen. And I think this situation would be reversed. You'd hold out as much as you could, but at a certain point you're like, listen, I'm being I can't sleep. You're threatening my children, you're threatening my mom. I just got to give your names. I just can

do anything to get the torture to stop. That's not what happened in East Germany. They were people who were just bored or lonely, or just wanted someone to talk to, or wanted to have the opportunity to feel important for once in their lives. So see, we don't have to speculate as to what it takes to get people to turn into informants and to be amenable to telltalitary and systems.

We've seen it historically, and we've seen it here during COVID, and I would hope people realize that this is far more pervasive and far more universal part of the human experience than even I would have liked to have believed.

You know, the there's a Souls and Eats in story and I remember where there's a woman who goes into the You know, this is obvious in the Soviet era, a woman goes into the effect of the local police station and says, you know, the constables, and says, because her neighbor had been seized another woman at night, never to be seen again, seized but left behind an infant, like a you know, six month old baby, and and she goes the neighbor goes to the police station to say,

you know, hey, is the mother coming back? If not, you know, should I step in and do something here to help out with this baby's going to starve to death. They arrested the neighbor and when asked when when, when asked later on why one of these individuals why they arrested the neighbor, the explanation that Souldson heard from you know, another bureaucrat, another police officer, was to save them the time. That was the attitude. It's like, oh, you're already here.

We're just gonna grab you, because we're probably gonna have to grab you at some point anyway, and you've already showed up to the station. So now you also go into the cell and you either go to Siberia or you just go up against a wall and we execute you. Thank you for saving us the time that was the attitude. And you know, obviously that's a lethal matter and it's

particularly depraved. But I really did get the sense, and I know people get mad at me when I say this, I get the sense that there were a lot of people who during COVID in this country not only would have complied with, but would have felt here's maybe a better way of putting in, Michael, there were people who were openly celebrating when other human beings died of a virus because they thought that they represented the anti Fauci point of view. That was widespread, yes, explicit and constant.

But look to that point, with that, with that baby. The other reason for a rest is this is a country where kids are treated well the narrative. So if you're pointing on an example where kids are treated poorly, you're a provocateur, You're a troublemaker. Come with me. So what happens in these systems is pointing out hypocrisies or problems with the status quo in and of itself. Labels he was a counter revolutionary. So everyone very quickly has to learn to keep their heads down and keep their

mouth shut. And this is something that those of us coming from there. It's just very weird to me talking to people who've been raised in like complete Americans, because a lot of times they'll say things that's just so different from how I was raised, and it's just things that just kind of I guess, you know you're culturally, you're just brought certain ways, like Americans are very big on Like I remember I had a group of people where everyone's trying to give each other advice and it's

give a problem at work. Well, the American answer is always well, take the person, sit down and talk with them, have it out. And for someone from a Soviet background, it's like no, no. The first question is, well, what power does this person have because they might smile and not at the meeting, but then they'll stab you in the back later. Are they going to start a file

on you? This is the kind of psychology that develops in these countries, and this is something Americans I think are thankfully very naive about about how vindictive and petty small bureaucrats often can be. And sadly, I think some Americans are starting to learn that the your nature of that And a good example of this is when the parents were protesting about the stuff being taught to their kids, and now the parents were an investigation and being labeled

as terrorists or being alluded to as terrorists. This is the sort of thing that Americans just never think of. But it's like, yes, the government will. If the government can arrest terrorists very quickly, everyone who they don't like becomes a terrorist. Yeah, I'm I'm somebody who you know. There were There have been two moments, I think politically for me that have really shifted you could say my Overton window or my perception of the country and what

we are, what we are up against. The first one was actually Kavanaugh, not even because it's like, oh, my gosh, Supreme Court. So much is at stake that the Kamala Harris was among them, that the most powerful voices in the Democrat Party and the Democrats Senate at the time, we're willing to clearly, erroneously and without any basis in any fact or any reality, call a man a rapist in front of his family in the whole country just

because they didn't want him to have a job. That means they do it to your dad, that means they do it to your brother, they do to anybody, and feel good about themselves too. It does not matter. It did not matter to them. And then with COVID as well, the immiseration of millions of people, the deaths of despair that occurred as a result, the businesses that were destroyed, the livelihoods that were ruled. I mean, we go down

the whole list. Not only were there people going along with all this, and this was the part of it that really rocked me as a New Yorker. It's why I'm no longer a New Yorker. People thought they were happy. They were like, oh, we're great, We're the good people. The monsters thought that they were the heroes. Michael. That's the problem. But Buck, I'm going to push back a

little bit, and I don't think you're gonna disagree. The Democrats should have patted themselves in the back about kavanaughh because none of them have faced any consequences whatsoever for what they did, other than fundraising and being regard as leaders of a movement. Chuck Grassley, who was either the chairman or the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, has

sent out press releases. I point out this story all the time, how he wrote letters to I think the Justice Department and either the FBIRA CIA demanding answers as to how Julie Sweatnick, who had no connection whatsoever to Kavanagh, who was claiming that multiple gang rape party she attended, he was somehow responsible for Avanadi. Her attorney went to jail. They couldn't get her on CNN fast enough. Grassley wrote a letter being like, what are the consequences for this woman?

And in his press release he's boasting that his letters for a couple of years have now been ignored. So when you have one party that is willing to do this and the Republican responses, well, I'm going to write a sternly worded letter and no one's going to answer me. And I'm fighting for you. When you have this asymmetry, of course, the incentives are always going to be to be as tyrannical as possible, because there's no downside. I don't disagree with you, so saw that one coming. But

let me ask you. We'll take a pause, Michael, because I want to put in a word from our sponsor, But a question I want to put out there that you can think about, and we'll come back to in a second. How close in ethos? How close in sentiment? Are the most radical elements of the Democrat Party in this country, and your average Soviet commissar circa nineteen fifty.

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help America to never forget its greatest heroes. Join me in donating eleven dollars a month The Tunnel the Towers at t twot dot org. That's t the number two T dot org. All right, Michael, returning to our question, how close are the not even the most radical, how close are the administrative elements of the Democrat Party in this country to the apparatus of the Soviets. I think I'm going to duck the question a little bit, but

give you an answer you'll be happy with. I think the Democratic Party and the members of the Democratic Party are far more moderate and mainstream than the members of the corporate press. I had a poll on my Twitter once and I said, if you had these are two choices people watching the show an't like. But if you had to choose to be the Supreme Court and you had the choices, where nine random Democratic Senators or nine random members of the New York Times editorial board, which

would you choose? And I think it was like eighty twenty in favor of the Democratic Senate, the New York Times, and all these agencies. They're the ones who are making the Democratic Party wag. It's not the other way around. And I'll give you an example that demonstrates this point. Let's suppose I'm a Democratic Party congressman. I hate Trump. I think he's the worst. He's praising white nationalist of Charles Is, all the others, you know, the whole Rigamar role.

At the same time, I don't think he committed any impeachable offenses. I think he shouldn't be president. He's terrible, so and so forth. How could I go in front of my constituents as a Democratic congressperson when twenty four seven they're hearing Trump Rusher collusion, Ukraine phone call, so and so forth and say, guys, he's horrible, the worst president ever. But that's not enough for impeachment. I would not be in that position. So that demonstrates who has

the power on the left intellectually in this country. It is far more than the media, who is accountable to no one as opposed to every day Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi and Kevin McCarthy and Chuck Schumer will tell you how the other person's terrible. No one is holding the New York Times or the Wash to Post accountable other than idiots like myself on Twitter. So that to me is the far bigger concern. So and as to the operatrics in the fifties, they didn't really care. They weren't ideologues.

It's like I think it's a Upton Sinclair is a big character in this book, and there's a quote ascribed to him where it's almost impossible to teach a man to believe something when his salary depends on him not believing it. If I'm in the nineteen fifties and the only way I could get food is to parrot Stalinism, and if I slip up, that sword's gonna kill me in my family, I'll be singing louder than everybody else.

You don't, and you know those saying goes. You don't want to be the first one to stop clapping for Stalin. So I think people need to appreciate that a lot of times, these these entities in these organizations aren't a function literally of ideology so much as people responding to very perverse incentives, and often those incentives are a matter of life and death for them and their families. I also think that there there are things, and you get into some of them in book in terms of the

level of awfulness, the every day awfulness too. It's not bad. Things will happen in a lot of countries, but you'll remember them as well. That was an awful moment. You know that that was something terrible that happened, but it was just every day, right, the every day awfulness of living under the Soviet regime. But there are also stories

that I think people they just refuse to believe. And I think it's so interesting that in the Death of Stalin, which was a pretty well made movie, for what it is, that whole sequence, that whole sequence in the beginning where Stalin calls in and wants a copy. However they did it you know, old school records. I forget what it is, but wanted a copy of the of the you know, Moscow Orchestra performance, and they had already finished. They did wake up the conductor and bring everyone back and do

a rerecording of it. Like, they brought everybody back, and I believe they even tried to bring back members of the audience too. So they had a performance at the main theater and I think it was Moscow, might have been Saint Petersburg, but I think it was Moscow, and they actually brought everybody back. And people, look, there's no way that actually happened. That actually did happen, because everyone

was terrified if it didn't do it. He was going to have their family killed as well as them, you know, all the horrible things you can imagine that was life for people. Yeah, it's it's the artists are you know, had a particularly tough time because if everything, anything can be perceived as in any way not praising the system enough. We see that even here with the political pregnics to far lesser extent. Obviously people aren't getting murdered. But there's

this one story. I want to get this exact, the exact details. Um uh here of um, there was a play that Stalin didn't like, um and basically overnight, you know, your career is just ruined. Apple can be sent away. Everyone who's ever been associated with you, uh gets I'm trying to get the exact I think it. Shostakovich, I want to get it exactly here. Yeah, Shostakovich was in nineteen thirty six, you know, he had a play called

Lady the Lady Macbeth MTNSK. There were articles about it two days later, and the community stood up for him. Because Shostakovich was and remains one of the great composers of all time. Stalin just didn't happen to like one. As a consequence of this, so the director's wife. He stayed with the director's house. Her wife was stabbed to death in the eyes when a marshal the Silviet Union. This guy's very high up to Tachevski. He was defended Shostakovich.

He was tortured and shot. His body was sent to landfill the librettos of the of the of the performance, was arrested and shot. His ex girlfriend vanished, his brother in law who was a physicist, his sister, his mother in law, and his uncle. They were all arrested just because Stalin didn't like this play. So, you know, to your point, it's not that people were living in fear of like you know, maybe Buck. You had this tweet in college and crap, what if someone finds a screen

shot and it's gonna look bad for my career. You're newly married. You, I've met your brothers. If something happens to you or if they can't get to you. But let's suppose I want to get to Buck. I don't need to get to Buck. I've got a circle around you. And let me tell you, everyone listening to this can imagine themselves being tough, and there's nothing they can do to me. You could arrest me. I'm not going to break Bring in your wife, bring in your brothers. Put

them in that cell. See what happens. And this is something I think in the West were so correctly proud of our respect for the individual and individual rights. It never even enters our head that innocent people who are simply family members. It's not only automatically that their targets, it's the law. It was a crime, a felony to

be married to an enemy of the people. And if you're arrested enemy of the people, it's like you can't defend yourself, you know, the spouse can't say, well, I wasn't really arrested married to them, And right away what

happens also is the children become orphans. And there was a lot of handwringing in the Kremlin because all these kids started killing themselves with good reason because overnight they were orphans and no one would associate with them, because why are you taking in a child of the enemy

of the people. So the level of depravity and evil in these societies is so much worse than just like, oh, someone's this fat guy like you know, some faba food on the top, and it's his brother gets a pay cut and you're hungry and you have to learn stupid things at school. Oh please, Like that is nothing that's totally scratching the surface of what's going on in these society. Yeah. I think that people also don't spend enough time, or

we don't. It's not thought of very often how much North Korea really tried in many ways, Yes, they're a huge very you know, there's people make the case that actually a racist Japanese imperial mindset was borrowed by essentially an ultra nationalist, ultra racial identity as part of North Korean ideology, but also in terms of the machinery of North Korea and how the Communist Party or whatever operates

there is borrowed from the Soviets. I mean very you know, even even the fashion choices in a lot of ways, say from China too, but guess what the Chinese communists bar them from the Soviets now borrow it implanted. You know, it was just directly important. In fact, a friend of mine, Peter, when he was looking at my photos of North Korea, he was just blown away. He goes, this looks like

where I grew up. But there's Asian people walking around like he couldn't wrap his head around it looked identical to him. So this is one of the reasons I went to North Korea. It's like, all right, this is my only chance to see what it was like from my family, you know, seventy or eighty years ago. And let me assure everyone, it's it's no picnic, to put it mildly, although we did have a picnic. Yeah, Well,

how does a society fall into this stuff? I mean, because that's always the you know, we look at the understanding the scope of the problem and understanding how awful it was, and we're far away from that. And I mean, I'm always amazed who I read about you know, what is it the Conquest, the Robert Conquest book where he talks about the great purge right, and how academics initially, you know, in the West, we're saying that, oh, it wasn't that bad, and it is actually even worse than

anybody had had anticipated. But the entirety of Western world academia was essentially trying to cover up or or certainly vastly diminish what happened there. You know, we don't learn these things enough. But also, what is the what is the tipping point right, because people are sitting here. I was just saying before, I mean COVID. COVID was the closest thing I've ever felt like in this country too. We may actually be living in a totalitarian state at

some point. I didn't think it was underway, right, I mean sitting at home ordering, you know, watching Netflix, getting uber eats. But the mentality that people had was scary. I mean people that are people that are masking up their three year old and are willing to scream at people if they get within you know, ten feet of them because they're so scared of them. Like there was something dramatically wrong with tens of millions of people in

this country. I don't think there was something dramatically wrong. I think there remains something dramatically wrong that was activated. I don't think those people's psychology changed as a consequence of COVID going away. I think COVID gave an excuse for people who have neurosis or anxiety or other some kind of things that are suboptimal mental conditions to have a rationalization that's external and an opportunity to act out

their aggression and hysteria toward others. And to your point about the intellectual Theodore Dreiser, who's probably the greatest naturalist writer of all time, Like he was discussing what was going the Soviet Union, and he just basically concluded, what good would freeing those prisoners do? So this was something and we see this still today with many people who are pro government to such an extent that they have this guinea pit of society. It's like, all right, let's

try this experiment over there. If it doesn't work out, at least we'll have the data. And you know rand I rand who opens up the book with her testifying in front of Congress. She had this great quote. She was on Donahue in nineteen seventy nine, and he goes, why you so harsh in these people, Like why can't you just say that you disagree? And she goes, because they don't hesitate to sacrifice whole nations, like they don't. I think this is something Americans like don't really get

the depth of evil. They don't care if literally millions of people die or are tortured or starved, because they have this idea of how society should run and there's nothing that's going to stop them from feeling important and having their world you imposed infinitely innocent people, and by definition, in their mindset, if you are opposed to their machinations, you are no longer innocent, and therefore whatever happens to you,

it's your fault. You see that reality, You see flashes of it with a lot of the climate change stuff. Climate change is a religious belief now, I mean, they play all these games. You don't believe in climate change, You say, well, climate's been changing forever, of course, the

climate changing. Climate change is a religious belief. And but you see it though, because if you start to say, hey, you really, if we've radically decarbonized that the there's still about a billion people right give or take that are in pretty dire poverty globally. It used to be a lot. More good news is that, you know, global poverty is in the last fifty to the last seventy five years down by leaps and bounds, But there's still about a

billion people. If you do this stuff, and you were to actually enforce these rules about CO two, there would be a lot of people without enough food to eat. A lot of people would not only die of starvation, but just a whole lot more people die of the malnutrition and the other components of you know, being able

to live in a prosperous society. Even if you don't die necessarily from lack of food, if you don't have enough food, your health is dramatically impacted, etc. Michael, they don't they don't blink when you there's like, yeah, but I mean, you know, we're trying to save CO two emissions. Man, Like, we're trying to save the world here. And I actually think those people are I think they're scary. I think they don't realize they're frightening, but they're terrifying in a

way because there's no mind there. There was this I forget which African country, but when the lockdowns were happening, there was one country. They're like, if we lock down, we die. We don't have fridges, we don't have stores of food. We're living hand to mouth. We need to go farm and get today's food. And basically it was like, well, let the meat cake, so you know what you're speaking of. Again, I think it's so much more malevolent than people realize.

And again, the reason why Americans especially don't realize how malevolent it is is that there's an entire information superstructure designed in place to teach us since kindergarten that people are basically good, and that when people in power do bad things, maybe there's like some bad, corrupt CEO or some mayor who's on the take, and Aaron Brockovich is going to come in and put him in his place. But for the most part, everyone sure makes mistakes, but

no one is inherently evil. And if you think that they are, you're a deranged conspiracy theorist. And when you have this as your basics for evaluating politics and people in power and governments and so on and so forth, it's almost impossible to realize how little those in places like this value human life. And if the choice is between their position and thousands of people suffering, you know, horrors, it's it's almost a joke to them. It's like, well,

what's the catch, you know what I mean? They don't. They don't. If anything, they feel powerful that they can wave their hand and have so many people kiss the ring. Well, this is I mean again. Another another area that I think illustrates this really well is the very obvious positioning of really well off to very wealthy white liberals on things like police and I know, I know you're not a big police guy, but on especially females, Yeah, on

issues of criminal justice. I mean, you know, if we if we do have a population that is not supposed to be policing itself, which is what we do. Even though we do have some you know, people caring the notion that you would condemn people living in high violence, you know, ninety percent plus minority neighborhoods to living with even more violence so that you know, you can go to Nancy Pelosi fundraiser and then hang out with a bunch of like producers for Netflix shows and have your

shard neyglasses and feel good about yourself. They do not care. Even when I try to explain this to libs who are very you know, who think that they're very attuned to things. When I tell them that your BLM marches and you're you're giving money these organizations and all this stuff makes you feel good, there will be more people who are dead because of what that position is. They do not care. It does not it doesn't affect them one look, the whole Democrat party. It doesn't affect them

until it comes time for elections. Then all of a sudden they pretend that they never said these things. I'm gonna say something about the police that I'm sure you're gonna agree with. My problem with the police is things like Kenosha, where not only are they refusing to do their jobs, which is in and of itself a problem when you know massive unrest is happening and these things are being torn down, it's that they were punishing people

who were trying to do their jobs for them. Kyle Rittenhouse when he turned himself in, was pepper sprayed by the cops, and then they tried to they put him a show trial. If they had their druthers, he'd be in jail for life, and even if he got off. There's no one who's listeners who can tell me that being arrested and having the death sense over your head isn't a traumatic experience for literally anybody. So that's my issue with the police that I'm sure you're going to

agree with. That's the problem. No, no, again, I don't disagree that either. I actually want to take a moment here for capitalism, Mike, if I can the my pillow two point zero, which is amazing. I've got them here at home, Pat haven't jus will fill of the original My Pillow, but now brand new exclusive fabric made with temperature regulating thread. The stuff is great. I love it, Carrie loves it. We're sleeping rom My Pillow two point

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smiling ceo face. It's really cool. I have a copy of it here. Yeah, oh yeah, it's amazing. Mike is Mike is an incredible, an incredible American success story. I mean, when you think about I think, you know, you think about a crack addiction, which, short of opioiddiction, is probably one of the very hardest I think to to be. That's because it's so good. They're not using crack because they don't like it. I mean, look the opioid receptors

in the brain. Anybody, there's apparently nothing and this is why it's so dangerous, right, there's nothing that feels. And he, Mike has been way too I'm talking about Mike Malice, by the way, for anybody. Mike Malice has been way too well behaved this whole interview. By the way he's been, He's had his thinking cap on talking. He hasn't said anything yet to just intentionally try to get me in trouble,

which is one of his favorite games. Because then I go because if I don't say that, he says something and I go, oh, I keep going, and then I get my people who are like, wow, how could you let him say that? I'm like, Malice, Fuck, if you started smoking crack your dad could become president. Well everything about that, hmm. I did not think about that until now. That's such an interesting point. Also, Hunter Biden, by the way, you'd think, like kind of a spoiled connected kid, crack

is not usually the option, you know. Yeah, it's such a low class, gutter drug and the guy has money and he's trashy, but not in the crack of trashy way. You would think he'd be a junkie, maybe a cokehead. It's it's it's I don't know what's going on in that household, but it's very rare, rare that these children of privilege are become crackheads. Do you, um, Hunter Biden, do you think he's gonna get you know, that's what we're talking about here. Do you think he's gonna get prosecuted? No?

I don't think there's ever consequences for a Democratic Party people. It's all the consequences almost never really one direction. And I have an on air bet over this. I was like, I was like, oh, he already always be one steak dinner, and he has doubled down because he said last year Hunter Biden's gonna get indicted, I said, Clay that's crazy, and we bet a steak on airs. This is all very public. Everyone knows I won. Now he wants to do a double and I'm like, how many of you?

How many steaks? I mean, fortunately Clay's got plenty of money, but I was like, how many stakes of yours? Am I going to take? The one who got put away? Two of them? Rob Lagoievich, Rob Lgoevich and Kwamie Kilpatrick. I think Kilpatrick was the last name. Roth got went to jail and Trump commuted our pardon both of them. So not only is he are do the Democrats never go to jail? When the Democrats do go to jail,

the Republicans let them out. You know, you just remind me, actually, since I want to, since I want to just start getting angry people angry at me and get in trouble. Here, what happens in the Republican election, What happens in the primary, what happens in the general twenty twenty four? Given where things are right now, what do you see happening? Oh? I think it's going to be. I'm shocked at to what extent Trump is going full bore against the Santis

this early. I think he only knows how to do offense, which is not a bad thing. I'm very much for doing offense. I think he is in a lot of trouble because it is now there's an excuse for me if I'm Facebook, if I'm CNN Fox to be like the guy foment an insurrection. I can't give him airtime. So this is the first time I think in like recent history where there is some kind of corporate explanation for not taking a candidate's money, and that is something

that's a real big handicap. He used Twitter to get elected president. For him to leave that money on the table to me, I'm not his advisor, obviously seems crazy. And I'm also I think that I think people underestimate that the biggest issue Trump is facing, in my opinion in twenty twenty four is the Republican Party establishment, because

and here's the other thing. If he became president, Mitch McConnell would team up with the Democrats in two seconds to get him removed from office, and they'd have those sixty seven votes quite easily. In my opinion. Wow, interesting, ah man, I'm ever even honestly never mind. Twenty sixteen, twenty twenty two makes it feel like any prediction can be. It's just a seed that Mitch McConnell cares far more about his relationship with Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden than

he does about the people of Kentucky. Yes, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, now that's that's very true. So you think, but you think Trump probably wins a primary against the Santis, No, I think. I think they're going to do whatever they can to screw him out of the situation, including, if necessary, excluding him from the debates. It's not going to be like twenty sixteen. And I also think they've been successful in making him radioactive enough that it's gonna be very

hard for him to hire quality people. Because think about it, If I've got a good resume, right, why am I ruining my life for the sake of this guy who wants the campaign's over? If I quit, He's going to go on True Central and talk about what an idiot I am. So it's gonna be very hard for him to get and staffing. I think even his biggest supporters admit was a huge issue for him throughout his White House. He's the one hiring Fauci and John Bolton and Jared

Kushner and every other you know rents previous. None of these are are particularly maga type people to put up mildly. So I think this is going to be a major issue him going forward. What's the so you finished the book? Back to the White Pill here, and it's this way we can bring our discussion to close this time until you invite me on the Michael Mallas Show, which has not happened. I don't think it's happened since COVID. I'm just gonna call you out right now. I don't think

I've been on well. I try to have likable guests. Wow. See that's what he does. I'm just gonna tweet that clip out soyod be like, see people will actually see it. Yeah, I'll retweet it. So the white Pill you say at the end is effectively that while um, it is not guaranteed effactly that we have to lose to tyranny, Um, we can fight, right, we can keep fighting. So what

does that look like for us here? There's a lot of people in the West and in America who thinks America is a rap, that it's doomed, so on and so forth. I can't one of my biggest points is how do you look at Mitch McConnell and Kamala Harris and Joe Biden and John Fetterman and say to yourself, I can beat these people. They're too important and smart and powerful. When you put in those terms, you realize

what an absurdity it is. And something that you and I completely in lockstep agreement are is that if there's any glimmer of hope for a better future for ourselves and our families, we have to do whatever we can to fight for that future, even if you know we lose. At least when you meet your maker, you could be like I did the best I could with what I had.

And there are so many forces, especially in the Republican Party, who want you to settle, who want you to compromise, who are like guys, grow up, be rational, be realistic. None of this is going anywhere. You have to work within the system, and this is just always how it's been. Those people are the most dangerous ones because they're the ones trying to get you to get down on your knees voluntarily instead of being forced to. The White Piale is the book The Tale of Good and Evil. Michael

Malice tells a good tale. Good to be with you, sir, Thanks for hanging. Oh, it's a pleasure. Buck