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Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Buck Sexton Show. Kara Frederick is with us now. She's formerly of Facebook, currently with the Heritage Foundation, where she's Director of Tech Policy. We're going to talk to her about AI, about government snooping on social media platforms, and all kinds of good stuff or bad stuff, but interesting stuff. Kara, welcome, Thanks for
having me. So let's start with Elon Musk recently spoke to Tucker Carlson on Fox Tree saw it, and he said, not only was he Elon flabbergasted by how much access the government had to the communications and just the general stuff going on at the social media platform Twitter, I'm sure as true of other places, but that dms were easily accessible by the government to What do you think of that one?
Yeah, so this, you know, honestly, it's not surprising. I mean, especially given the backgrounds that you and I had there. We do know, first and foremost there are legitimate reasons, or at least there were legitimate reasons to you know, work with some federal entities when it comes to things like child sexual abuse material, you know.
Sniffing out the bad guys.
I worked on foreign Islamic terrorism when I was working for a big tech platform and before, so you know, there are times when you want the government that is ostensibly there to protect the security of Americans to maybe
have some sort of access to these internal communications. Unfortunately, over the past two to three years, we've seen that there's been a abject dereliction of duty when it comes to the you know, number one, keeping United citizens safe and number two really prioritizing the the security of Americans, especially from external hostile forces, and instead looking inward at the American populace and inflating the definition of domestic extremists
and terrorism and whatnot. So, in my mind, the government has lost our trust and deservedly so, and they have been misprioritizing when they should be looking at real, actual threats.
Then okay, maybe we can think about.
Some of these surveillance capabilities, but that's all gone, that's been washed away, given especially what Elon exposed in the Twitter files, and it is very telling. I think that we at the Heritage Foundation, we published a report in February of twenty twenty two, and we said there's a symbiotic relationship between these big tech companies and the government. It goes as far as collusion and any sort of collusion between government actors and these big tech companies to
silence the speech of Americans should be prohibited. And people were like, you are, Oh, come on, You're just a fear monger.
What are you doing. But we've been I've proven right.
So the fact that the government had full access to dms and Twitter. Again, we knew Twitter dms a long time ago were probably compromised, and this just proves it. And frankly, this proves a Heritage Foundation right yet again.
So you worked at Facebook, I would assume, and tell me if it's an incorrect assumption that the very very cozy and all too close relationship between Twitter pre Elon and the government and as he described it, effectively, it was a bloated activist organization Twitter masquerading as a social media platform. I have to assume, and you tell me if it's not right that the politics of Facebook, Google, all the rest are basically the same and perhaps even worse.
I would say, post twenty sixteen Trump elections, that's when everything became exacerbated. So you have you know, a cadre of US who went in before that election. I did there in twenty six sixteen, early twenty sixteen, and you know, we we were there to solve these big problems like the foreign as long terrorism issue, and you had really
talented people, a lot of time patriots. I came right out of a naval special warfare command where I had been doing counter terrorism analysis as a targeter, and I went right into Facebook sort of thinking that, you know, we were going to do the same thing. We were going to protect Americans and their users from this you know, foreign Islamic menace, which was taking the form of ISIS
at the time. And then I would say in twenty sixteen, something really changed and it was Trump's election, and they just went hysterical. And the people that they started recruiting post election, you know a lot of them went in sort of thinking that they had a mandate to stifle the conservative voices i'd say in America. You know, prior to that, we there were some interesting i would say data points when it came to the way that we did our analysis, for instance, and this is no secret.
Now these companies have been using organizations and goos like the Southern Poverty Law Center to actually help them formulate their policies and help them formulate the way that they treated specific actors on these platforms, and they thought nothing of it. They thought, Okay, SBLC is an honest broker.
So I think that part of it is ignorance. Part of it is, you know, the sea that they swim in in the Bay Area, and then the other part of it is the twenty sixteen election just really unhinging people and making them really come in with mission oriented to sort of stifle the voices of the people that they disagreed with.
Is it fixable at these places? Like how would you actually if you were able to get you know, Zuckerberg and his top lieutenants in a room and they were willing to listen to reason. I mean, you know, I think Facebook has just turned I'm a man that there's still apparently as many people using it in America as there are. I find it to be like an unwieldy trash heap of nonsense, Like it's really hard to even
figure out where anything is anymore. They've it all looks like it was made by a bunch of you know, computer engineers. And I don't mean that in a good way, Like it looks like it's just this kind of cobbled together thing and all of the original just the ease, and it's just they're throwing all this. I think it's turned into a bad user user experience and user interface.
But anyway, forget about fixing that for a second. If you were just trying to fix the fact that Facebook is not fair to half of the country politically, is it possible or do we just have to build our own build our own thing. By the way, build your own Facebook doesn't sound as crazy. Maybe it's buy your own Facebook that's more expensive than Twitter. Not to call elon on that one.
Yeah, you know, I will say personally, and when I was in the company, I thought Mark Zuckerberg's instincts were more libertarian than you know, more leftists. So and that is sort of the old guard of the builders.
In Silicon Valley.
You know, these are engineers, and they think like engineers, they think like programmers. They want to solve problems and fix things. Unfortunately, I do think that he's he's been there for so long and he's been frankly led astray by others in the C suite and that other sort of layer of upper management as well, who are very concerned with pr fires. And clearly we know that public relations only goes one way, and that's against Conservatives at
this point. So you look at that and sort of see how he's been co opted when his instincts were maybe initially good. I remember a speech that he gave in October of twenty nineteen at Georgetown University where he said Facebook had to be the alternative to an authoritarian China which was propagating its digital platforms here in the US. You know what happened to that that that gave me
a little bit of hope. But since he since spent four hundred million dollars pushing certain Democrats in elections under the auspices of these out the vote measures, but we know that they were in blue states going to Democrat activist organizations who were then pushing only getting out the vote for Democrats. So unfortunately, I think those instincts that he previously had have been quashed, and I don't think there's any coming back from it. I do think it is too far gone at this point.
Let's come back in a second, and talk about TikTok. Since you mentioned communist China, we'll get into that in just a second here. But everybody at home, if you haven't tried the Geezy dream sheets, I'm I'll tell you right now, you're missing out. Mike Lindell's got a lot of amazing products. Karen, do you have Geezy dream sheets. We're gonna get you hooked up.
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was like, oh, TikTok, I'm sitting here. I'm like, what about the social media companies? They are already throwing elections anyway, We've put that aside for a second. I mean, how worried are you? Let's just look at TikTok. And I won't do the you know, the what about with YouTube, Google, Facebook or Instagram all that stuff, although I could. How bad is TikTok really? How big a problem is it?
Yeah?
I think TikTok falls into three problem buckets. I would say, and The first and foremost is the most obvious one. It's that Byte Dances its parents parent company. It is headquartered in Beijing and therefore subject to the laws and policies of the People's Republic of China. One of the laws that we like to talk about is the twenty seventeen National Intelligence Law, which effectively compels private companies to
do the work of the state. So if the Chinese state, the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, decides that they want specific data, they want access to this, they want access to that, then by virtue of this law, Byte Dance has to comply. And this is not my original phrasing, but I think it illustrates the problem pretty well. China doesn't have rule of law, they have rule by law. This if this is something if you're you know, the Bite Dance CEO, you're kind of powerless to resist at
this point, and why would you. When you look at Byte Dance, they have one of three of their board members of the main domestic subsidiary of Byte Dance is a card carrying Chinese Communist government official. If you look at like some of the good reporting that Forbes has done, they scoured LinkedIn and found that three hundred plus profiles had either current or former links of these current byte Dance employees to a Chinese propaganda arm, to Chinese state media.
So you have active and former members of the Chinese Communist Party, particularly in the information realm, working in byte Dance. And there's so many other data points that I could talk about, but that's the first one. Byte Dance very close links and infiltration frankly by the CCP. They have an internal committee, a DOJ report in September twenty twenty coming out of the Trump administration assessed as much, and we know that they are deeply involved in the inner workings of TikTok as well.
So that's one thing, and again just tip of the iceberg.
We can go into just really how odious some of those connections are when it comes to the connection with American data as well, but I'll table that for now. And then number two there's that influence campaign aspect, and you know, we talk about the manipulation of the information environment. This is something that we were dealing with in the intelligence community and especially in big tech companies and looking at it now and what we've seen is pro CCP
narratives pushed on these platforms. We've seen an actual Chinese state account come to TikTok and say, how can we push our information? And we've seen information from those accounts pushed and not labeled as state media as well. So we know that they're trying to do the proverbial sowing of discord, such as promoting Democratic candidates in the twenty twenty two midterm election to the detriment of Republican candidates.
They're trying to push stories about abortion and incendiary things to help so descent among the American populations, something everyone always accused sort.
Of the Russians of doing.
So that's another aspect of that information environment manipulation.
And then third, you have the kids. You know what it's doing to children.
And we know that TikTok, in particular with the four U algorithm, just lights a.
Fire under these social contagions.
We know that they're in bed with the transgender lobby, featuring you know, prominent transgender activists, prominent LGBTQ activists all over their websites raising awareness. They're very very open about doing this, and there are pediatric hospitals that are reporting actual physical manifestations coming out in patients because they use TikTok like things called TikTok tics, which most researchers are
classifying as you know, pure social contagion movements. So you know, and this is again something that TikTok is very very efficient at that it doesn't necessarily distinguish it wholesale from the instagrams of the world. If you want to talk about what about is them. We know their staffs on that in terms of mental health harms. But TikTok is poised, especially because, as Christopher Ray says, directory of the FBI
China controls the algorithm. That's even more problematic when they're feeding our kids this poison.
But how much of the algorithm is the kids click on the things they click on and then it's reflected back to them, right, Like you know, I asked this because remember Russia, remember Russia collusion. Back in twenty sixteen, they're saying, oh, Hillary Clinton lost because Trump worked with Russia. And then they talked about the Facebook ads. I think there was like one hundred thousand dollars that were spent on these bogus you know, or Russian backed or whatever
Facebook ads. And when you look at the ads, I mean a lot of them were ridiculous. I mean it looked like a guy named Yuri, you know know, working in like sub basement c of some you know fsb outpost you know, on the on the in the outer ring of Moscow was like looking at a you know, a little dictionary in English. I mean it was preposterous, right, I mean their understanding of US politics beyond lock her up for Hillary Clinton, which you know they got that right,
but their understanding was very weak. I mean the idea that that I just hear all these people saying, oh my gosh, you know, the Chinese are going to brainwash our kids and make them lazy or whatever. I look at them, like, what do you guys think Disney's door.
I just this is the part of it that there's so much more upset about what's going on with the I understand the spying thing, and like if they can suck up your information and do create that that's a separate issue, but it sounds to me like there's also just a content component of this, and I I don't under I just feel like I feel like TikTok is the shiny object where people in politics and in power get to pretend that they're doing something that's like, oh,
we're protecting the kids from the bad influences online. They're protecting them from one of dozens of major and endless minor influences online that are all being pushed by the Democrat Party anyway, like transgenderism. Beijing's not pushing transgenderism via TikTok on kids. The Democrat Disney is pushing transgenderism on kids.
Well, number one, you know, you're right, But number two, we also don't know that Beijing isn't pushing this stuff, and that's you know, part of the problem too. If China is so intimately involved in the algorithm, which it says it won't. If there's a forced investiture to an American company of TikTok, it said, there's no way we're giving up the algorithm. So in my mind, that means, yeah,
they want to retain control of it. There's a commercial element to it because it is really good, but there's also that information environment of manipulation potential there because they want to keep it in Chinese hands so badly, and they've said as much, which flies in the face of a lot of the assurances that these TikTok executives are providing to Congress members with their you know, Project Texas potential, you know, mollification of our representatives.
But so I also I do want to address that.
I think that when you have over sixty seven percent of American teenagers as of last year on a particular platform, and you have thirty percent, according to a pupil in twenty twenty of preteens nine to eleven year olds on a specific platform, and we have new data coming out of the UK saying a decent percentage of toddlers are now exposed to this content, then you.
Have a problem.
Then you have a the fact that you know, number one, all of these children are on it to a much greater degree than you know, Facebook, as you talked about, is hemorrhaging users, especially in this demographic Instagram as hemorrhaging users as well. Then then that becomes a source of information, and we know that they're getting it for their news now as well. They're not just looking at those cute videos. They're they're getting it to be informed about the world.
Top Google executives said as much as well. In a tech conference. He said, when people young kids want their news, they go to TikTok and Google is very much aware of that, and you know, keeping their antenna up. And then you have American adults, so looking at the kid stuff that matters a lot, but American adults as well. So you know, in two years the amount of American adults that get their news from TikTok has tripled. That's problematic,
I think from a civic perspective. I see you want to say something, but I want to say one more thing before I let you talk.
I'm standing in the way of the train. By all means, go ahead, Sorry you were saying yeah.
So I think the last thing is a number of enterprising journalists have taken it upon themselves to create their own TikTok accounts. And what they do is they register as users from around thirteen to fourteen, and they have found, to a man, within minutes, they are fed content that is composed of self harm content, suicidal content, eating disorder content, especially if they're registering as girls versus registering as boys.
So we do know that there is something that isn't just responsive to shall we say.
What the children want?
Granted, the TikTok algorithm is based off your engagement, not necessarily your network, So how long your eyes linger over a specific video if you're interested in depression, Yes, it's more likely to feed you self harm content and suicidal content. But this appears to be pretty uniform across the board
for a lot of these journalists experimenting anyway. So there's something in TikTok that is particularly I would say nefarious when it comes to our children and the noxious content they're being fed.
I mean, do you ever go on TikTok because I gotta say, some of those shuffle dance moves very catchy.
Fuck.
No, I am not going on TikTok, nor will I ever go on Tiktokay.
This is where I get to point it out all the other people in America, usually especially the Democrats, but I get to call them comedies and have fun with it. Apparently on this one, I've got like a soft spot for communist China. So I'm like, I think TikTok is super entertaining. I gotta tell you it's all for me. It's yeah, it's it's how to how to sear like the perfect steak and different red meat. I follow this like Max the meat guy who makes like Wagu and
briskets and all these things. Uh, guys who know how to make like tomahawks out of the stuff you find in your backyard like this is and of course cute pulldog videos like like, I was like, what is this? How is this supposedly in some way doing anything that is uh, you know, going to damage me? But then again, I'm an adult and things are different, and you know that can be a little bit of a challenge. And yeah, so I got to get to the Oxford Gold Group
here for a second, and we come back. We're going to talk about AI because I think its kra Frederick has to plane whether or not Skynet is going to become self aware and cause the nuclear war that James Cameron warned us about in Terminator one and two and probably the other ones, but no one saw the other ones because the other Terminator movie sucked, So you know, there was a she knows it's true. There was a recent banking collapse, the nation's largest collapse of a financial
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just like I do. Call the Oxford Gold Group at eight three three four zero four gold A three three four zero four g O L d Okay so ms Kara Frederick who is on the task force I believe at the Heritage Foundation for dealing with AI related matters, So you would you would have some insights into this. I I think that the AI is and look is Elon Musk, both wealthier and smarter than me. Yes, but I think all this stuff about how the world is
going to end because of AI is pretty crazy. Like I'm looking at this, I'm like, how does this even happen? Everyone's getting all freaked out? Do I I'm usually actually no, I usually tell people everything's gonna be okay, because most hysteria is just people wanting attention. But is AI really? I know it's a big deal and it's gonna matter all. I'm not saying it doesn't matter a lot, but as a threat, what is the threat from AI? That's the part of this that I still haven't No one's really
been able to explain to me. It's like, oh, like it's going to hurt our democracy because of the disinformation. Watch CNN, look what they.
Do, fair point.
And I do think you stand in good company with with some of the skeptics.
You know.
One of the things, as you know, in the Intel community, though, there was always that person who was like everyone everyone China isn't ten feet tall, right, everyone everyone al Kaita is not looking at external operations, and they like are the naysayers and everyone kind.
Of their whole thing is is they're the uh you know, they're they're playing the role of what's the what's the word we're looking for here. You know, when you're just being in opposition, to be in opposition, I forget what the word is. You know what I'm saying, contrarian. Thank you. They're playing the contrarian.
Yes, yes, yes, so so you know there's that aspect of you know, the AI community as well. But I do think there's there there's reason to be worried. And I like to quote, you know, two authoritarians on this matter. And I thought this was commonplace, but apparently not. Many people know that Putin a few years ago said whoever is going to lead an AI is going to rule
the world. I think that that's the significant discussion to be had, especially when Putin's saying that, and then she and China says, you know, we want to dominate in AI by twenty thirty. So, you know, if our adversaries have their eye on this and they see it as some geopolitical strategic key, then I think that it's important
to sort of pay attention. And the reason why I think they know harnessing these technologies is really going to uh catapult them to the front of the line of global dominance is is because they're doing things at machine speed. Tends to be better than doing things that human speed.
And when you're coming when you're talking about war fighting, when you're talking about things like even you know, the stuff that the Intel pukes like us used to do, that computer vision algorithms can do better, you know, instead of what project may even tried to do. Instead of a human being sitting in front of an FMV screen, you know, saying that's labeling a truck, labeling a rock, labeling a car, you have machines able to do that.
And then when machines can make decisions, and again, you know, the autonomous weapons that we have are mostly semi autonomous, so there's always a human in the loop. At this point, there's a lot of debate and discussion about that. But when you get to the point that a machine is basically cutting out all of that analytical rigor that can be applied elsewhere to do things only humans can do, that's going to give the war fighter a massive advantage.
So if you have a computer vision algorithm determining that that's a rock and that's a tree, and that you shouldn't you know, hit it with a with a kinetic strike, then that's going to be better. If you have another analyst sort of doing things like determining if there's a positive identification of that actual terrorist actor which would cause that hell fire to rain down. So I think that you know, it's offering specific advantages because of that machine
speed vice human speed. People talk a lot about drone swarms too, so instead of you know, training up a human pilot necessarily these you know, what my old boss at the Center for an American Security used to say is that, you know, the human being sort of acts as the quarterback and you let your your smaller, you're cheaper systems do some of the other work for you, so you're not sort of wasting a human being in
the human capital on that kind of thing too. So I think those are just two examples of what AI can help accomplish in war.
And we know that she's on a war footing.
We know that Putin is currently at war right now too, so so that's another thing. The information environment, like what you were talking about before, that's a whole nother kettle of worms, and we can talk about that all day as well.
Oh, I don't know, it seems to me like if there's a little machine that can clean up after me, and tell me how great I am all the time, and you know, not ask any questions beyond that sounds good. I'm not that worried about it, like turning into the terminator and deciding that you know, it has feelings too, and it's self aware at all. This I don't know.
I mean, I guess I do think it's it's definitely going to be interesting for high school kids who want to have some program that can easily write there, you know, kind of B minus level term paper for them that we know it can do pretty quickly. But friends, you know what you need, not AI, you need chalk. Chalk provides all natural supplements that help people restore their energy
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to c choq chalk dot com. Use my name Buck b U c K for thirty five percent off. So, Caro, when you're not trying to save the Internet for the purposes of freedom, humanity and world peace and all that stuff, what else? What do we need to have a Cara Fredder? You were a Navy intel analyst. Is that what I'm getting?
Because you said vice in a way only people from the intelligence community ever say vice like that, meaning instead you know that no one else You'll never come across anybody who did not work in the IC who will be like, well, I think that's a good idea of vice. This other idea you're like, wait, what, we're the only ones who do that.
No way, Oh man about Habita.
Oh I'll give you more. I'll give you more optics. Only people from DC talking about well from this optic or from that optic or whatever. There there are some things that the the Intel people in particular, we have this weird nerd vernacular. And I caught you doing some nerd vernacular during this podcast. So at least I know you're the real deal. At least I know that you know, you were pouring over those reports eight cups of coffee deep.
Yeah, it's funny, you know, get smart with Steve Carell and Anne Hathaway. It's a it's a movie. It's like a I don't know, spy caper. And you have the Intel analyst who like finally gets this chance to like be in operations officer in the field and he's you know, talking to some operator types and he's like, wait, did nobody read my report?
Like that was me. I was like, did nobody read my report?
That person who would would go out with the guys and special Operations forces and sort of be.
Like, hey, everybody, this is what we should be thinking about. Here's the target. You should go there.
Uh So I was always a civilian, a civilian intelligence officer, and we called him Targeters when I was working with Naval Special Warfare Development Group.
But that was, yeah, that was my job.
I was an Al Qaida analyst first and foremost and all sorcers.
So what they did was they like original original gangster old school al Qaeda or the uh a Qi. Because I was a q I, Oh you were, they brought me in to do CDC a QI and then I got moved to OI uh o I A and and uh and a q I basically so no way, yeah.
No, I was.
I was looking at guys over yeah, the original guys. Some of the guys been hiding in Iran for a little bit that is now in the open. And yeah, when I deployed a couple of times, that was my that was my thing, looking at Al Kaida external operations operatives.
So what did you think of Thirteen Hours the movie, by the way, because I always thought it was so funny that the case officers in that were like so smug, which is just great. It was just great. The analyst were all sitting there like yeah, maybe we were just back at headquarters making coffee, but like at least we respected the paramilitary guys.
Yeah, oh don't. I don't know.
I had a lot of OGA friends when I was out there, so you know, you got to you gotta.
Keep those relationships warm. So I was I liked your side of the.
You know, but did you notice in the movie for some reason, just to really hammer it home, like one of the American case officers in Thirteen Hours just randomly has kind of like a French accent and he's turning around to like he's turning around to uh, you know, what's his name? John Krasinsky, And like all these guys were all, you know, jacked and these badasses there and he's like he's like, IDA had to do fancy things, dude, Like I am so cool. They're like where did this?
Where did Why is is his name? Like like Jacques Couston, Like where did this guy? He's an Emeritan? Like they just I love it because those guys.
Uh, the the the.
GRS guys in the movie, like, oh, it's funny the things they would say about the case officer. I'm just sorry. I just was observing. I'm just observing.
Fuck.
Every time I left when we were forward, every time I left the tactical Operations Center.
All the guys in a chorus would go beat it NERD. So yeah, it's a yeah, but you guys were like.
He had, we had our reports and are our cool stuff, you know in the meetings that we did too? So interesting? All right? Well, Cara, where should people go to check out your work and the stuff that you're up to and all that good stuff?
Yeah, first and foremost, go to Heritage dot org. So all of our work is on the Heritage website. I direct the Tech Policy Center there and yeah, we're we're looking at you know, five big lines of efforts. So go to that website to see what we're up to. Personally, I'm again kind of in the belly of the beast. I'm on Twitter Kara A Frederick and on Instagram as Karafred with two DS, so you can check out my work.
I do a lot of some personal but mostly.
And you got a tiny you got a tiny baby too, right right now you're like a yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So she's an infant and I don't hear her, but she's probably gonna start crying a little bit.
So this is I'm glad we didn't get the form where you pretend you hear the infant crying so you can end the interview early. So that's good. That means we kept it moving here. Check out Karra stuff everybody. Kara Frederick, thank you so much. Appreciate you joining us