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Welcome to the Buck Sexton Show, everybody. On this episode, we have doctor J. Batacharia with us. We're very excited to talk to him about well health policy as it relates to COVID and so much more. Batachari as a professor at Stanford University Medical School, teaching in the Department
of Health Policy. He's a Research associate of the National Bureau of Economic Research, a founding fellow of the Academy of Science at Freedom at Hillsdale College, and co wrote the Great Barrington Declaration, a focused protection alternative through lockdowns. Doctor Botacharia honored to speak with you, sirs. As a very early, huge supporter, booster, adopter of the Great Barrington Declaration. I feel like I'm in the presence of Sanity Royalty.
Thank you for your sanity Tuotebuck sheiate the support for it. Thank you for having me on.
So just for everyone listening to this, if they, you know, subscribe to my show and they know what I'm gonna say, so you were right. So the Great brand Declaration was as correct more correct now, even if that's possible, than it was then because we played out the experiment on the other.
Side of what what happened.
Let me start with this because it's such a big topic and we don't you know, you've got people to save and young minds to mold and all that stuff.
At Stanford.
How is it that all the institutions of medicine seemed to get this entirely wrong and would not speak out at all in favor of some sanity on this.
I mean, I think there was some element of policy hysteresis wish. I mean, like very early on the Chinese example, the January twenty twenty Chinese lockdown played an enormously important role in the minds of public health. The people, like the World Health Organization sent a delegation to China in February and it came back like they wrote this report saying, oh, what China did worked, and then everyone copied China, all
the countries one by one, from Italy on. It was like Domino's falling with these lockdowns, And you know, how do you do something so dramatic, so devastating that already had. It's really hard if you're like at the top of some bureaucracy and some hierarchy, especially if you're a scientist, to admit that you've got it wrong. And so I
think that that's that. Like by the time October twenty twenty rolled around, I mean, I saw very clearly the lockdowns had failed in October, in April, March, April twenty twenty, and that I'd already gotten already seen all of the devastating reports that were coming out of poor countries and even rich countries about what had happened to poor people during the lockdowns and so and I also saw that
the lockdowns were coming back. And so what's happened? And I think since is it's a lot of people who should have known better, and maybe now they actually do know better, but they can't bring themselves to admit that they were wrong. Because they do, they sort of lose their status, lose their position, lose their power.
Now, did you have docs coming to you, colleagues, people you know in the medical community who were saying to you, look, I know this is all crap like this the paper masks, really, the masks period aren't doing anything for anybody. The lockdowns were a disaster didn't stop the virus at all. And you know, the vaccines are nowhere near what they were promised to be. And I want to get your take on exactly how you'd grade the vaccines in a moment.
But did you have people coming to you in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, I mean, I mean later on in the pandemic, or was the group think so strong that mds, even from Vario esteemed institutions like in Stanford University Medical School just couldn't see what was obvious.
So in twenty twenty I'm pretty sure I was not a majority, My view was not the majority within Stanford, but it might have been a pretty prominent a much more prominent than people realized.
Right.
So when we wrote the Great Brenton Declaration, almost immediately actually released it, tens of thousands of scientists signed on, very prominent scientists signed on, including a Nobel Prize winner
here at Stanford. It was it was really clear that there was a pretty substantial portion of the scientific community that was very deeply unhappy with the lockdowns, that actually was not a consensus, the scientific consensus behind them, and that actually that there was a lot of people who thought what we were proposing, which is essentially lifting lockdowns and focused protection of vulnerable older people, was a better strategy. Was a strategy actually, just to be clear, that strategy
we proposed the Great Brandon decoration. That's basically the old pandemic plan we followed for a century of respiratory virus pandemics. I was just cribbing off of people that are smarter than me for over the last entry. So it wasn't like we had a really truly novel thing. So it's not surprising that a lot of people, but the suppression was so the censorship, the smearing of people that that said no, was so severe that a lot of people
kept themselves silent. A lot of very prominent people kept themselves silent after after we wrote the Great Parent Doc Christians, the people that signed it, some of them lost their jobs. A lot of them face like, you know, investigations and other things within their own universities for you know, for heresy, I guess. And it was it was so shocking because I thought the scientific community was more open to challenge.
I mean, that's part of what science is. You say, you think you think a I think that I think B we run an experiment, it turns out you're right. Now we both think A right, but no, I'm not even allowed to say B. You're not allowed to say and therefore there's no challenge and we don't know what's right. A lot of that happened during the pandemic. People silence themselves.
Has there been any I mean, here we are talking in halfway through twenty twenty three, and you know, someone just told me that in New York City where I left New York City because of the response to the pandemic. I mean, that was the number one reason I just said, I can't do this anymore at this place. The libs have gone completely insane, and I'm not going to pay taxes to support this system, et cetera. Right, but put
that aside for a moment. A friend of mine who was there said that recently, all these they had these little COVID testing tents, as if remember there was that obsession. It's almost hard to go back and think of this as like a nightmare that you're trying to forget. There was this obsession with we just had testing everywhere, Like what is that? What is that even going to do?
Right?
What was the point of having just mass testing, constant test test, test test tests all the time. Was just an anxiety disorder pretending to be a health policy. But you know now they've switched it, so now it's COVID and flu testing. Almost like we've created this bureaucracy that will now live on forever. Instead of everyone realizing what a disaster the policies were, the policies were, we're really bad.
Yeah, it's institutionalized hypochondria book, That's what it was, and it is. I mean, I think you know you you the testing is is valuable if you use it the right way. Right, So if let's take those at home managing tests, right, So what if we'd had them very early and we use them so that before you go visit a nursing home, you test you have to check sure. Right before, all we had was those PCR tests. That
wasn't a technological thing. That was a decision that was made by public health that to not promote the andergen test early. That could have been you know, sort of promoted and like developed much earlier. And the reasoning was that, well, if you do a PCR test that has to happen in a lab, public health will know if you're positive, if you'd had the Amergen test early, people could have known for themselves without even directly reporting public health and
use that information to protect older people, vulnerable people. Matchine, We've done that. Like the test, the key question is not whether we should test. The question is what do we where should we test? What we tell for, and what do you do with the information? Testing low risk people for for for the viral fragments in a where they have no symptoms at all, It is just destructive, it puts it results in a whole bunch of low
people being quarantined for nothing. That's what happened during the pandemic. And then a lot of people just stop testing because they're like I don't want to I don't want to be stuck in quarantine for you end days just because I tested positive. So yeah, I think I think the testing it's just it's it's like you have a technology, but you don't know how to really use it. You have to like think, And we didn't do that.
Yeah, no, there was there was no thinking. Tier to your point about the previous pandemic policies as well, it really feels like the people that were supposed to implement the policy, looked at the book of what decades of thought and research had come up with and said, now, let's scrap this. Let's let's just let's go with something else right away in the moment, you know, if you've been practicing a fire drill and a fire exit plan for years, the house catches on fire and you go, well,
let's forget about the fire. Let's forget about those fire exits. Everybody, let you know, everyone think you're crazy. Seems to be kind of what they did.
This for me. But it's an area, you know.
I still get people docs you know, that say, oh, you know, we've moved past COVID. I said, how have you moved past COVID? There hasn't been any account any accountability for this. Have you seen any major institution. I'm here in Miami because I left New York and I went to the U Miami Health System just to get a yearly my check up, you know, And I don't go yearly, but I hadn't been.
I like, I don't know five or six years. Don't tell anyone, doc.
And so I'm going for a checkup, and they made me wear This is a couple months ago. They made me wear a mask walking in the lobby and then I go in the actual medical area and like, yeah, we don't really but I mean they shouted at me to put a mask on. I don't feel like there's an accountability. I think there's still pockets of lunacy. Do you think has anyone been chastened by this? You know, does anyone at the CDC feel horrified at what an abject failure they were during the US or not really now?
The CDC, the NI, HD, FDA, they're all they all failed in very fundamental ways, and they're basically like they're giving themselves awards, like they're patting themselves on the back. There have been some attempts to try to like do some evaluations. So for instance, the House Select Committee on this Coronavirus task coronavirus pandemic has been meeting, but you know, like if you look, I testified that the Democrats have
basically they think they've done everything right. The only problem was misinformation by the by the by the right, and so like you don't you're not getting like honest, like a real honest evaluation in that setting of what actually went wrong, scientific questions about what what went wrong in policy and in science. There's other places like in around the world. The UK has its is it's its parliamentary
inquiry going on. There are some some some like like the Danish of the Norwegian authorities have concluded that they shouldn't have closed schools for the two weeks or whatever they closed it for the very short period of time they closed it. So you're starting to see some push pushback. But as it stands, Buck, I completely agree with you. We are in a position where if the pandemic, another pandemic comes, we will lock down again. We will absolutely
lock down to it is now thus standard plan. And so that means that if you run a small business, prepare around that, because it's very likely that you're going to face a time where your demand is going to dry up because of that. If you have kids, make alternate arrangements, make sure that they have some capacity to learn even if another pandemic happens. You know, I think, uh, a huge amount of civilization depends on some sort of certainty that the kinds of guarantees that we have in
our society. You know, I can send my kids to school and I kid the teachers are going to teach them I have to worry about it. Those those are out the window now thanks to this pandemic manage, this crazy pandemic management we faced and that which is now I think the standard plan.
So I want to I want to ask you, Doc, hold hold your answer for a second, but I want to ever know. We're going to get into what your real report card for the mRNA vaccines against COVID. I want to be specific on it because I know people like to play all these games. No, no, no, no, I want your real report card for what we know now based on the data and what we've seen in reality,
not in theory. In just a second, but for a moment here, I want to talk about the Tunnel the Towers Foundation two thousand, nine hundred and seventy seven People lost their lives on nine to eleven, two thousand and one, but that day is still taking lives. People are suffering and dying from nine to eleven related illnesses. Not to mention, there's also a whole generation out there that knows little
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See I give it a C.
So tell us what worked, what didn't? What do we need to know?
Yeah? So, I think the problem actually is again not just the technology, but rather how it's used. All right, So, in December of twenty twenty, the randomized trials what it found. What they found was that the vaccines stopped symptomatic infection. At ninety five percent for two months. That was the That was the result. We didn't know if it's if if the the protection waned after that time. We didn't
know if it stopped transmission. If you get infected, can you still get infected, can you still pass the disease on? We didn't know if it stopped asymptomatic infection, And we didn't know for certain whether it protected you against severe disease and death, because the random zest trials didn't have that as a primary endpoint. In fact, the m RNA vaccines the trials had actually more deaths in the vaccine arm than the placebo arm, but it was like such
small numbers that you couldn't tell statistically. You had to tell it when it world down in the public at large. The reason I give it a C is I do think that it would protect it against severe disease and death, which was really important for older people who had a
very high risk of dying from COVID. Young people, the mortality benefit is small because the risk of dying from COVID is small, so I don't see much benefit, and I do see some harm, like for young men, like folks your age, it's you have I think an unacceptably high rate of myocarditis, especially after the second dose, but certainly even the first does you know, heart inflammation after the vaccine, so for for so okay, So how would you use that vaccine with with this kind of these
kind of characteristic The way I would use it is I would use it to protect older people. I would very much strongly encourage older people to get the vaccine, And in fact, that's what I did, and I think it saved lives doing that.
Kind of like the flu, right, I mean, the flu is for older people, immuno compromise people get a flu shot, right, that's generally the that's the advice, the guidance that I've received, I think a lot of other people here from their doctors. But it's not if you're twenty five and you don't get the flu shot, you're a monster who's killing your killing your grandma.
Yeah, because the flu shot doesn't stop transmission most most years, and it's so like you know, if young young people can get actually young flu is probably a little worse for young people than covid is, depending on the age and the condition you're in. So it's you know, flu is, flu is a different thing. The vaccine is a very it's a very traditional technology. It's very safe, that flu vaccine. It's we know we know that the characteristics of it
because we've been using it for decades. It wasn't true for the mRNA vaccine when we recommended it at scale. Instead, we used it to essentially we first first public comp made this promise that if everyone got it, or ninety percent of the people got or eighty percent of people got it, then the disease would stop. You get hurt immunity with the vaccine. The problem was like herd immunity
doesn't work that way. You don't you don't you need a vaccine that actually stops you from getting and transmitting the disease. There's a famous clip of this woman on MSNBC like you know this like incredible delivery. She's like telling saying, okay, if you if you get it, you are a dead end for the virus. You don't transmit it to other people, right, And that was wrong. She
didn't know that. The public Health didn't know that. And yet you had Tony thought you going around saying you gotta have eighty percent of people to get it in order for the disease to go away.
Well, that that was the part of it.
That all that I think bothered so many people. You know, I told, and I was saying this on Radio two at the time. I told my own parents, who were both seeing both senior citizens, unsurprisingly, to go get the vaccine.
And they did.
And I think that under the circumstances, given what we knew, that was a sensible move. But the whole mandates and the federal mandate that Biden tried and then had to be overturned, you know, the Supreme Court had to step in and say, no, you can't do that. This was all premised on you have to get it because you're a danger to the people around you if you don't. I mean, that was a total lie, right doc. And what I want to know is should did they know it was a lie all along?
Was it always a lie? Or did they figure out that it was a lie? You know what I mean?
So early on let's say January Febry twenty twenty one, they didn't know it was true because the trial didn't check it. So if they confidently said that if you get the vaccine, you're not going to spread it, they're lying because they're over representing what the trial said. By let's say April May June twenty twenty one, it was clear from international events that heavily vaccine societies were experiencing
huge disease burden, a huge spread of the disease. You know, places like I remember the earliest one was I was. I think it was like the Seychelle Islands, which you use the Chinese vaccine. I saw this enormous outbreak in like late March, early April Afica, exact the date, twenty twenty one. I thought, huh, that's strange. Maybe maybe that means that the vaccine, the Chinese vaccine, doesn't work. I wonder what that means for the for the these vacs, the MR ANDAs we used. And then I saw Gibraltar
which had an enormous outbreak. And then I saw, I mean, it's just like Israel. Country after country there was heavily vaccinated, saw enormous outbreaks. It was clear that all of these vaccines had failed to stop disease spread, and that at that point it was it was a pure lie. They should have been seeing these same things I saw, and yet they still going on TV saying if you don't aren't vaccinated, You're a danger to others. That's a lie
piled on top of demonization of people. This this sort of like separation of people on the basis of like are you clean or unclean, which is a very dangerous thing to do in public health. A lot of people. Yeah, I don't know, Like I heard all these stories from Thanksgiving A twenty twenty one where I'm vaccinated, people weren't invited to Thanksgiving for their own families. Yes, I mean
that's public Health's fault. That that's a lie put around by public health essentially demonized people on the base of the vaccination status. And then there was a parent lie with it, which is that if you had had COVID and recovered, there was no there's no immunity at all. All. The evidence was really clear by July twenty twenty that you had pre substantial immunity.
Yeah, how is it that doctor Fauci could look anyone in the health sphere in the face and say, Rather, the bigger thing is what he didn't say, which he the concept of natural immunity was completely abandoned for the pandemic. How couldn't people see, right? I mean, doc, how many years did what you went to school? How many years for medicine? I mean it was like four years medical school, four years residency, right, I mean you spent decades of
your life studying this. There are like you, How could they have not have seen this? I feel like I'm just some random dude. I saw this.
It was crazy, Okay.
Yeah, So I mean, you know, so I do research full time. Just so you know, So I didn't do residency, but oh I did a PhD. I got gray hair for a reason.
Buck, Yeah, you studied this stuff for a long time, bottom line fair.
Yeah, but yeah, just so why did they not know? I mean I think that the problem is like the kinds of people that ran the pandemic response, they're they're most of their HIV experts, right, So, like you know, Tony Fauci, Rachelle Olenski, all of these folks, they made their bones in HIV, and for HIV there's no immunity, so and you know, like there's this new virus. They use their knowledge of HIV to set expectations about this virus.
So very early on, it was like you weren't even allowed to say that it's the possibility of the immunity. Until you can prove it. The problem is like they didn't update. By July of twenty twenty, it was clear from like a multiple papers in prominent medical journals that actually, you know it works pretty well, that is, your body's immune response works pretty well. And they didn't update. They were like, oh, we can't know for certain, We can't know for certain. Well, you know for certain for the
vaccine either. And if you really look, you're right bucket. You don't even need medical training. You can go back in history, right, We've known for twenty five hundred years during the Athenian Plague, they used people who would recover from disease to care for people who are already sick. It Right, in the Athenian Plague twenty five hundred years ago, people used they used people who recovered to care for
the people who were sick because they knew about natural immunity. Somehow, in the last three years we forgot about twenty five hundred years of medical knowledge, and Tony Fauci going around saying, oh, I'm not certain that you have protection if you have COVID or covered.
We don't.
I mean, that's just crazy, it's just bad policy. People could see with their eyes that if they got COVID that it took for a long time. Afterwards they wouldn't get COVID. They could see with their eyes at the second than they got it was less severe than the first time.
So I've been called an anti mask fanatic by all the worst people. So I want to return and ask you about some mask related questions and the possible connection to massivesteria here in just a second doc. But first up, some days you have to dig deep for the energy you need. But where does that energy come from? And men's body's testosterone is a critical source. And if your body is not producing enough to meet the demand, you're feeling worn out before the day is far from over,
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thirty five percent off your subscription for life. So doc I when I go into any doctor's office, and this has been the way I felt now for what three years, but certainly still because it does happen in places, and I see, you know, the purpose of the people at the front desk with the masks on they're walking around when I'm told that it's still hospital policy as it is in some places that visitors everybody has to walk
around with a paper mask on. I lose faith in the intelligence, the seriousness, and the professionalism of the people involved. Are they aware of this at this point? Like this is this is no longer a debate that rational people can have. It doesn't work, It doesn't help.
What are they doing?
It's it's okay, So let me just do a little bit of the history. I think this is my theory about why they launched themselves or attached themselves to such an odd such a bad uh, such an intervention with the almost no evidence behind it. In fact, the evidence behind it. Coming into the pandemic, there was a dozen randomized studies that said it didn't work. Show they didn't really work very well for the flu, which transmits very similarly to COVID, and so we knew we had the experience.
There was a reason why we didn't say to school's mask up during flu season because there was the randomized studies that it didn't work. When the pandemic hit, I think public health had two contradictory aims that they needed to meet. They wanted to meet first, they wanted to tell the public, you've got to take this pandemic seriously.
Remember how early on, like there was that guy, that NBA player, Rudy Gobert, who, like you know, he does this like press conference, the licks the microphone and the everyone gets on his case because he's not taking COVID seriously. Masks serve the purpose of telling everybody you're in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone's wearing a mask that means you're in the middle of pandemic. Everything's going to take
the pandemic seriously. The second thing the mass does, and this is paradoxical, is they also give people the sense of control that they have something to do about the risk that they face. So the public health makes people feel this sense of risk and then they give them something to control it, and now you moralize around it. Take I wear the mask and I'm like protecting others with it, right, I'm doing good. So I think that's really like the fundamental thing, Like it didn't matter what
the evidence said. All that mattered was that you had this sense of control and you have this sense of fear, and the mass ser of both of those purposes. The evidence during the pandemic became came in loud and clear. Randomized studies that were looking at the effective as the mass would find nothing. And so yeah, I think the places that are still attached to the masks, where they treat everybody like a biohazard, they're not following any scientific data.
And I mean, I'm not sure I should agree with you about joejudging them, Buck, but you know what i mean, I'm sympathetic.
Well, I just want to know, like, does anyone would anyone in the medical community honesty come up to you and say, doctor Botacharia, this cloth mask that I wear for you know, a total of five minutes a day, maybe when I go into the doctor's office. Nowhere else, by the way, nowhere else am I wearing this? This keeps me very safe from Aristolas virus? Like, is there is there a serious MD on the planet who would
make that case to you? And if not, how is it that there are still places that are making us mask?
I mean there are still people floating around inside meta. I mean, like, you know, you can tell yourself any story you like, buck and if you convince yourself for you can. I mean, but and people there are people like it's just cognitive disonance. They can't believe that they were wrong about something, like very very smart people. So there's not that there aren't people like that. You know on Twitter they still bug me. But like, but it's
it's it's not. I think most people in medicine understand that there was a mistake, that that that there isn't the evidence behind did that they wanted, and that they embraced an intervention that didn't have evidence, and it's undermined the credibility in the eyes of the population. I think a lot of people in medicine and public health have started if they haven't seen that, they started to see that.
What do you I want to ask you how we can fix this, this credibility issue, or what that would look like, doc. And I also just want to say thank you for the Great Barrenton Declaration for a lot of us who were trying to hold the line for sanity while and I'm talking about you know, early on right summer twenty twenty, we'd all seen the hospital tents in Central Park that never got used because they weren't needed, and the hospital ship that never got.
Used in New York City.
But you know, they brought up this whole hospital ship. We all saw this stuff, and the Great Barrington Declaration came out and we're like, wait a second, so what we see just as rational people. There are doctors who are telling us that that's true. Right, So it was really I don't know if anyone told you this. It was a glue of light in a darkness of mass hysteria and appalling cowardice and political opportunism. And you know,
I know you're a very nice guy. My disdain for Anthony Fauci, who went to my high school, which I always tell people is kind of funny. Will never it will never cease because he's never apologized. He's never said I lied about everything and I was wrong about everything. If he does that, then you know, fine, Fauci will call it a day, I guess. But the Great Barrington Declaration is very important anyway, and you can tell I feel very passionate about this. We'll get back to this
in a second. I just want to say thank you for attaching your name to it and giving a template for reality and sanity at a time when so many of us were looking around saying, I can't believe you know double mess. Remember they talked about goggles and gloves too. I mean, I remember all this.
Tony Fauschu said goggles. There's not a single study I've seen that talks about I don't know where she get that idea.
Just you know why not right? I mean, to your point about the enforced hypochondria, it really turned into Remember they put the kids in the bubbles for band practice, like the plastic bubbles. Remember remember the plastic dividers that they set up.
In place A study that shows that it reduces airflow, making things worse.
Yes, you're creating like little pockets of virus. I mean you can't make this stuff up.
Everything that they did that people didn't want to do. That people you know had a problem with, Like, yeah, you're six, stay away from people, stay home.
That's called having.
The flu or the cold for all of you know, human existence. You know, you don't want to infect people. So if you're six, stay home anyway. Doc, But I want to ask how we fix this. We'll get to that in a second. But for everybody at home, the team at my Pillow got to talk to you about this for a second. You know, the Geeza dream Sheets have done amazingly well their slippers, their pillow products, There's
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Enter promo code buck for that twenty five dollars deal. All right, doctor Boticharia giving you the ability here to clean up faucheese mess. How do we fix this? How do we fix the credibility problem? How do we fix the systemic wrongness problem from the pandemic? So to your point, we don't lock down again and do all this crazy stuff again because I think we would.
Yeah, I think we would too. But at the end, to answer your question, the key thing is, let's follow what happens after an airline disaster crash. Right, the NTSB sends out, it's independent investigators, people who weren't involved in the disaster. They take a look at the black box, they like try to figure out what happened, and then they make reforms so that it doesn't happen again. Right,
And the same thing happens in medicine. Right, so when the patient dies, you'll have these conferences called minem conferences, mobility and mortality conferences and where doctors like it sometimes can get heated, but like the idea isn't to blame anybody. The idea is to like figure out what went wrong. We need a society wide eminem conference, a society wide airline disaster conference for the disaster that was the management
of this pandemic. And you know there's some places that are starting to do this, but like it's it the quote there, no one has asked really all of the right questions. So I've worked with a do on a document called a Norfolk Group document an o rfolk dot org Norfolk Group dot org. Uh that that asks essentially
like eighty pages of questions, scientific questions, policy questions. You know, some of the stuff we discussed, what was the evidence on masks, what was the evidence on natural natural immunity? Why didn't why wasn't it acknowledged? When did people know that the vaccine didn't stop transmission? Why were there why we're still there being mandates pushed? All these all these questions need to get asked, both at the national level,
I think, and also at local levels. And and in essentially it's an agenda, a blueprint for what an honest commission looking at the COVID policy disaster would ask. We still haven't had one. I think that's fundamental. Once we have that, and it's not it won't be run by me. It should be run nor by Tony. Fact you've run by independent people who that and you have answers to these questions that everyone accepts. Then you can start to begin to start to regain credibility.
Am into that doctor Boticharia, A lot of us out there and not just me, really appreciate what you did during the pandemic. And then you continue to speak the truth, and it feels like the world of medicine is not completely going into the abyss of politicization and mass psychosis. So thank you for that, and thank you very much for being those Is there anywhere you should you want to direct people to either look at your research, follow you on Twitter, or anything like that.
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter. Probably too much on Twitter, as my wife tells me. But doctor J. Boticharia A D R J B h A T T A c h A R I A. I'm also I have a new sub Stack thing called Illusion of Consensus where we explore how the idea of consensus arises, why sometimes often the idea of consensus and sciences is actually just simply an illusion in fact, and we use the pandemic as
a lens into that process. How the media and the scientific community work together to create this illusion when in fact there's quite a bit of dissenting ideas inside science. So Illusion of Consensus on substack and Twitter, those are the two places to follow you right now.
Doc, you have a new subscriber. I think you've got a whole lot of others that are coming your way to when they hear this.
Thank you so much, Thank you Buck, thank you for having me, thank you for the great branch of decoration, signing it