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All right, what's next for Israel's war against Hamas. We have people over at Axios, for example, sharing this that Israel plans do the quote occupy and flatten all of Gaza if no hostage and ceasefire deal is reached by the end of President Trump's trip to the Middle East.
That is from a fellow named Barack Ravid.
David Ifoon joins us now and he is the publisher of the New York Sun, and we're going to dive into all this now, David, always good to.
See you likewise, but.
Well, what do you make of this? I mean, this is from Axios.
They're saying that the next phase is to quote flatten all of Gaza and occupy it if there are if there's not a full release of all remaining hostages. What can you tell us about the state of this war and what happens next.
It's interesting that you bring this up, Buck. You know, I was in Israel back in two thousand and five when Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip and I hate to take you all the way back, but it is relevant that was at the time Israel governed the whole of the Gaza Strip. There was a lot of international pressure regarding peacemaking. If you listeners will recall, Ariel Sharon was the one who spearheaded this. He actually had to form a new government in order to be able
to pull it off. He was encouraged at the time by George W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice, but ultimately ended up pulling all Israelis out of the Gaza Strip in two thousand and five. I was there for all the protests. I saw the chaos on the ground. I saw, you know, some of you might remember the orange shirts. That was kind of the banners, and the theme of the protests was color orange. But you know, people were really screaming and shouting about the disaster that they felt would unfold at
the time, and it so happens. You know, since Hamas took over Gaza in two thousand and seven, which is just two years after that pullout, I've now been in the position where I've basically overseen coverage of five different wars in Gaza, five different wars in Gaza, and what has become quite apparent even throughout this latest round, is that if you really do want a scenario where there are no more wars in Gaza, which obviously is good for the people of Israel, but more than the people
of Israel, even it's good for the people in Gaza, you need to get rid of Hamas, and you need to get rid of them completely. You know, to get rid of eighty percent of Hamas or ninety percent of Mamas is like getting rid of eighty or ninety percent of a buyer. As some Israeli officials have put it, it will sprout again and will take over again if it's not if it is not completely excised, they have Harmas has taken over every single element of society and
living in the Gaza strip. And you know, I think at the beginning of this process, it seems he's really sort of tried to see if they could figure out how to get Hamas out of the picture using more conventional methods. But it seems that they've arrived at the conclusion that the only way to really do that is to just sweep the slate entirely clean and stuff from scratch again.
So does it seem like then it is true that is there going to be some uh taking occupy, occupying occupation of this area that is essentially like a DMZ.
Do you think that's is that going to be the plan?
I mean, it certainly looks like they're lining that up. Is an option. You know, it would be easy for everybody if Hamas just demilitarized, give up, the hostages, stepped out of the picture. But it seems apparent they're not going to do that. And if they aren't going to do that, Israel is basically faced with two choices, right. One choice is to kind of continue with the status quote where Hamas is still placing a stranglehold on how
the flow of goods and aid circulate. They're still controlling the lives of a lot of the people in Gaza. They still have the capacity to wage water to some degree, and obviously if they're left alone, they will continue to be able to do that to a larger degree. So that's option one. Option two is to just, you know what, could completely take over and remove Hamas from power and everything that relates to it and start again from scratch. And you know, obviously that's not going to be easy.
It's not easy for Israel. They've got to put their soldiers into hum'swey again. There's a huge mobilization effort now in the south of Israel. I mean, people down there tell me all the tanks are going down, all of the reservists are being called up. I mean, they are mobilizing right now for full scale war. So it's not easy for Israel. It's not easy for gardens either, in the sense that you know, a lot of garzens have
been displaced for a very long time. We're seeing now what I think we believe for a long time that a lot of gardens don't support Hamas. I mean, plenty of gardens do support Hamas, but there are also gardens that don't their effectivity living under a totalitarian regime where every single aspect of their lives is owned by Hamas. Their food, the medicine, their kids' lives is owned by Hamas. So you know, it would certainly be a tough period.
But if at the end of it, there's a scenario where there's no Hamas and you know, they can start the process of rebuilding with new power structures. At least certainly there's a real opportunity for Israelis to be free and at peace, and also an opportunity for Garzen people to finally live in a scenario where where they can have direct relations with the world at large or why the community, whether kids aren't being recruited for terror all
day and all night. They can have access, open access to information and maybe create the embers of living in a better world and a better future for themselves and their families.
So is it then accurate you think to say that the goal here, the strategy for the IDF, these really defense forces, is the destruction of Hamas as an entity.
That that is accurate? Right?
If this, if this war goes the way that it seems to be, it's not beat back Hamas until they are at a fraction of their normal or you know, general strength. It is Hamas is effectively an issue no more.
Is that?
Is that accurate? I mean, that's exactly accurate. And that's why you know, when when officials are talking about flattening Gaza, this is not kind of like a salt the Earth strategy. It's it's it's actually quite pragmatic in the sense that throughout the years that you know, Gaza has been built up in the way that it's been built Hamas infrastructure
has been integrated into absolutely everything and everywhere. I mean, there are you know, super high end apartment buildings in Gaza that have you know, Hamas tunnels and Hamas infrastructure built into them. A lot of them were funded by Katar, by the way, and you know, it's hard to see
a scenario where Katar wasn't complicit in that. But I mean, the only way to sort of know with certainty that Hamas is gone is really to take an inch by inch approach, and that involves, you know, looking under every stone and every rock and every tunnel and every building, and that's you know, what would be necessary in order to achieve that result. I think that's it seems to me that that is what the Israelis have determined. After going at this for for nearly two years.
It's been it's been a long fight already. How much longer do you think it will take before they would achieve that objective?
Well, I think you know when it has gone for a long time. But just keep in mind that they've been in different phases, right, There'll be phases where it's paused for negotiations as phases, and then the various you know, short term deals that have been enacted. But the other thing to keep in mind is that Israeli society and the Israeli Army is very much a citizen army, and there are certain requirements that Israeli government has to keep
in mind. So for example, they can't keep reservists signed up for more than three months. Right. Some of them, you know, they have businesses, they have families. You know, you have folks like you and me who have day jobs. Suddenly they're called off to go and fight in Kaza, and you know, some of them are startup entrepreneurs or this or that. You know, it's they they got to
be able to come back to that. And then I think also frankly, part of it is, you know, many of the soldiers are students, they're in university, they're finishing the semester. So on a practical basis, the summer is a better time to mobilize the IDF, which is probably why you're seeing this sort of timeline emerging. But yeah, I mean, if they're at full scale and they're you know, focused on getting the job done, I think it's weeks, especially being as Hamas is so depleted as it is now, you know.
We'll come back and talk about Iran here in a second with Dovid Ifoon of the New York Sun. Our sponsor is Birch Gold Group. Terriffs, as you know, cause a little bit of chopping the economy. Things have settled down right now, but we could see some supply chain issues and inflation is still something that has to be taxed. Gold and silver bullion are excluded from the tariffs and all of that mess that has created.
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free info KD today. Now Iran, you've started to hear some talk, David that even in the US and the Pentagon there's a disagreement about how Iran and its nuclear program should be should be handled. What are we to think about this because for so many years now I can't even begin to countertrack it. We've been told Iran is getting closer, Iran is so close, Iran is closer than it's ever been right, and we say, okay, well,
what are we doing or what does that mean? What do you think the posture of Israel is right now with the Iranian nuclear program? And what should the Trump administration be doing?
Well? Look, first of all, just to put a line under sort of the contrasting visions for how to deal with Iran, the view of the if I'm administration, for example, And frankly, you know, at certain times and from certain people in the Trump administration, you hear the same thing the Europeans. You hear Iran cannot be allowed to get a nuclear weapon, right. The position of the Israelis is Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons capability, which
are two completely different ideas. One is that Iran might have the tools in its kitchen to create a nuclear weapon, but we're not gonna allow them to push the button, and the Israelis always maintained, well, that's very risky. You kind of have to trust the Iranians if you're going to allow them to have the whole setup. We want a scenario where they're not just pulling out the plug from the machines, but they are dismantling the machines entirely,
and the and the weapons production capability. So that's been kind of a source of a big disagreement for a long time. And you know, I think in the early days, you know, with Witgoff and others sort of talking about engaging with Iran, they were using similar language to the above administration, which certainly had the Israelis alarmed. But more recently, you know, the language has been more precise in the sense that they're saying, we don't want to allow nuclear
weapons capability. I mean, look, at the end of the day, the best way to deal with this is for the Iranians to understand that they have a really serious amount at stake if they continue to pursue it and to undo the progress that they've done on their own, which is obviously really difficult, but there is I would say a window now, an opportunity. Now Iran is incredibly weak
and incredibly isolated. The Trump administration has shown this ability to be super tough on Iran in terms of sanctions, and I think if they really ratchet up the pressure and they it seems like they've at least opened up a willingness to do so, there is the possibility of achieving that outcome without the need for any military intervention. Obviously, having a credible threat for military intervention is part of what it takes to get the Iranians to take this seriously.
The other factor, which of course is significant and should not be underestimate, tool is the degree of internal opposition that you have in Iran, and the weakening of the regime by the Trump administration of buying the international community
by definition strengthens the internal opposition within the country. So the two peaceful ways are, you know, pressure that is absolutely ascruciating on the Iranian regime, that that you know, convinces it that it's worth getting rid of the nuclear program or and possibly simultaneously, the strengthening of the internal opposition to the point where regime changes is a real threat.
But in the end of the day, you know, the military option, you know, needs to be on the table, either as a as a practical last resort or as you know, a very firm alternative pathway that is presented to the any regime to the extent that they're looking at these conversations and taking them really seriously.
Talk about the campus anti semitism stuff here a second.
At first up.
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Dial pound two point fifty say the keyword baby. That's pound two five zero say baby, or visit preborn dot com slash buck that's preborn dot com slash b U c K. I don't know if you saw, but Bill Ackman talking about that there needs to be some change at Harvard at the very at the very top level. I think in the Board of Overseers or that you know, the whatever it is, you know, you giving me a face, what you don't you don't like your you want the Harvard board to stay the same.
What do you think about this?
I don't know. I think it's it's insane what's going on there. And I don't want to compare campus to Gaza and Hamas, But you know, these kind of ideas are just so deeply integrated into every level of some of these elite liberal institutions in this country that it's hot to see that any of these changes, superficial changes are really going to make a difference. I mean, the truth is, you want to change Harbor, you've got to fire half the professors and bring in people with alternative views. Now,
what are the chances of that happening? You know, you're going to change the overseers. Are they going to do that? Is anybody going to do that? Like, if you really want to have an open minded institution where you have free debate, free discussion, free ideas, you can't have ninety eight percent of all of the personnel being sort of apparatics for the Soviets or you know, whatever the liberal
the work zeitgeist is at that particular time. So the truth is, I think the more realistic pathway is not that Harvard's going to change or Yale it's going to change. Is that alternative institutions are going to displace them. And you know, you're already seeing sort of what they call the Ivyes of the South. I know, in the Jewish community, it used to be a huge badge of honor to
go to Harvard or Yale or this or that. Now a lot of parents are telling their kids, you know, what you pick something else, you know, it's just not worth it. And the truth is, if you have to think about it big picture, you know, those are very powerful brands, but they should not take for granted just how quickly big brands can become devalued. I mean, you saw what happened with bud Light or this or that.
You know, if that Zeit guy sort of takes hold, you know, the brand of Harvard and the brand of Yale will just not have carry the same weight or the same value that they've carried in the past. You know, in the end of the day, frankly, you know, Harvard Yale, if we're talking about anti Semitism, they need their Jews
more than the Jews need need Harvard. That's the truth, because you know, if there is a boycott, if people aren't sending their kids there, if Jewish or as ready, professors don't want to teach there, if if they don't want to engage in you know, shared research programs, you know you'll end up with just this rabbel, you know echo chamber of kind of like radicals, and they'll just you know, feed off each other and eat each other alive.
And you know it'll be the end of these great institutions, and certainly what Trump's doing on the on the money is gonna certainly accelerate that significant.
Do you agree with with that position from Trump that if these places don't clean up their rack, they should stop getting the federal dollars they're getting.
I think so in the sense that you know, there federal dollars always have strings attached, right, It's not like a given, it's not a right to get to get money from the government. And like in a lot of these institutions, there's real like reverse discrimination, right, and it's you know, it's not just Jewish students, but like I don't know, Christian white men probably feel isolated in a
very similar way and other kind of groups. But you know, you really have a scenario where it's no longer a merits based system, and it's you know, it's class based, or it's race based, or it's this or that. And for to have an expectation then that the US government, namely the taxpayer you and me, should have to pay for that, it's completely reasonable to say, well, you know what, this is not what the American people, how the American people want us to spend their money.
Yeah, absolutely our sponsors IFCJ International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. You know that just like here in the US, Israel has their own Independence Day. In case you missed it, this year's Israel Independence Day was a few days ago on May first. But for the people of Israel, freedom is nothing more than a daily struggle just to survive. In so many instances, there's no real peace, the continuing war,
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gift at eight to eight four eight eight IFCJ. That's eight A eight four eight eight four three two five, or go online at IFCJ dot org. Dovid thanks so much for being here is always where folks just go to assume New York Sun dot com right check out the latest you're doing.
Come enway son, don't come.
I'm sorry, that's I think. And why in New York? Yes? N why son? And why new York? Sun At.
We want to make it easy. We're don't have to ask people to spell out new York.
You know it's fantastic.
And how are you doing by you know, I'm a dad now and your dad or your dad four to four times over before we let you go? What is your your your year one best bit of as a veteran of daddom, what is your fatherhood? What is your best advice for year one?
Dad?
Best advice? You know? Academics are overrated. Try and put all your focus on values.
All right? Wow, there we go. Dominic food everybody, I'll give you. That's all right. Hey, we'll take it. Thank you, my friend. Good to see you.