Hey fam, Hello sunshine.
Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with how to have those tough conversations with your family, or maybe you've got people in your life you just can't see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren. She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving us the tools to talk it through and find a little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday, February third. I'm Danielle Robe and.
I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from Hello Sunshine.
All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on your mind today?
Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have that new year energy coursing through me. I get super introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too, just thinking about like where you are, where you want to be. And I came across this article in the Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's all about this idea of self continuity, the link between who who you are and then who you expect to be.
Ooh, what is the difference?
Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that often when we look back at our former selves, we might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that happened to us. But actually the research shows us that a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence for our past and our present selves can help with mental health and becoming emotionally resilient.
Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at as just.
Part of my journey.
Is that what's happening here.
The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged by this research you.
So it's such a funny moment in your interview with Esa about.
That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind. And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to
tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice writing a letter to your future self, that that can actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea.
My therapist just had me do this. I had to write a letter to Danielle in five years.
That is so funny to me because I have felt like burdened by this idea that I need to write a letter to my future self not five years out, but like a year from now, because I want to make sure I'm still living by my values.
Then well that's nice. And also you can start with chet and then rewrite it in your own words.
You did, you didn't actually write it.
I needed a starting point.
I was like five years.
Who knows so much happens in a month.
The second half of this exercise is actually writing a letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah, kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection to your future self, and it also increased these student's desire to study harder and reach their goals.
I actually I really agree with that. There's all these studies that say that people that write down their goals accomplish more of them.
What did you feel like you gained from this exercise? I had.
It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting, like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one of my things this year was trying to follow the spark. Are you gonna do this?
Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna do it.
Yeah. Do it in Jamaica.
No, I want to.
I want to actually like kind of like sit down and journal and like be in the right headspace for me. It's it's about making sure that as busy as life gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still like living by the values that I committed to a few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort of like eclipse.
That is it too personal to ask what values?
Like? What do you mean values not at all values of just being present with my family. That's that's the main thing, you know, being present with my husband and my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me to keep my ambition and ego in check because I lived and worked for so long where I kind of just let those things run out ahead of me without actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life.
That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing it in terms of values too, because you really don't know where things will go necessarily, but you can always live by that integrity exactly.
And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know, in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions too from things that we need to address or confront in our lives.
I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up to him and said, the devil comes for you your highest moment, Yes, and that is.
Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can help you live out that self continuity and that accountability that you need to reach your future self. And when I think of the people in my life who do that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who
comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity, about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing some of that journey with us today.
She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor, and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a really interesting journey.
Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels like there's nothing left for us to preserve.
Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma?
Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love, or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue.
Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to.
Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the key to unlocking the transformation we want.
That's after the break, Stay with.
Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me. And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like.
We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally this is John Fancy and Fumal.
We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we met in the trenches. We did.
We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we were in for some like deep internal work. But all we got on the bus. This is like my favorite memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's like meeting and talking about and I knew what we were in for. And Simone got up and was like, does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right. Little did I know?
I was in for group therapy camp where we would be weeping together for the next four days. But it was a magical experience and so lucky to count you as a friend now because I turned to you all the time for wisdom and now we get to open it up to our bright side busties. So I want to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you
go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad school like was in the world, and when I was only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown, but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor to mega church, and so you like learn all of these skills and all of these things that you become really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable.
Like I've never walked up and been like, can I run your tech company?
I used to be a manature chest they and like, oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment, I found myself just sort of looking back on my life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And obviously I spent a long time talking like I was a kid in school where every single report card was talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me.
If I found a way to make mine I get paid, I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do a video. And then I just my own identity as a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was
a pastor at the church. I was trying to do more and more technic things, and so sort of like gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a transfer somewhere.
There was a really big life event that happened, and I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You met your wife when you were working at that same church, and when you both came out and shared the status of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened from there?
I spent a lot of my life just being pretty unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church, right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort of like do do do?
Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well, because there's so much shame around just the idea of sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really, I just put it on my head.
But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa like and instantly fell in love and was like, this is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So I come to this realization and fall in love. And we were both working at the church. She was the creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes, meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be
in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in the sixties. This was a church in la in like twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of to love and be loved and had that experience, I knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built a career in. And that was really hard for me because, like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what am I gonna do? What job could I have? What
life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job, it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was wrapped up in church. And so I think having that experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And so even though that was the most beautiful experience in my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value now because I have been able to build a career that is authentically my own.
You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that maybe weren't challenging before.
I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really important for me to learn and went on to influence a ton of the work, even though today I was leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a
trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then there was like good things too, and so I really wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a good experience or was it bad? And then find myself being like, oh, I think two things can be true, and if more than one thing can be true, Like, how does that impact how I view everything else?
What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't think I'm good at that, being able to say I have issues with this person or experience or thing, but that doesn't mean all.
Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard. It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice. But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've been trained to have our brains take the easiest route, which is just all good or all bad, all one or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now, happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like, I just need to know one thing about them so I could decide the totality of them.
I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma? It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It? And it feels like this is the book of the moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds, we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this
binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be able to think in the gray, just to be able to imagine in that gray space. When did you first realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided as we've been told, And what was your first step and just mantling the binary thinking.
I mean, I always say the work of this book started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And I grew up really close to my parents and like
oddly like protective of them. But every time I was in therapy and I would mention something that was kind of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done this differently here like this, I would immediately be like, but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry, do you think if you say something about them that was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that, it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them?
And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that. I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of, like so much of my personal work that I then started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now I see it like in social media, I see it more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no, only one thing is true and I'm going to figure out which one.
It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even if it was a challenging relationship.
Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me. But then again, that's like us being like it's one or the other, but it really can't be both, right, you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible.
Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that?
No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed to being parents, and I mean at the best way, and so they were. We had a good relationship and they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's hard for me to talk about things that I might be disappointed or have our time with. We were very Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I have to tell you.
Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to me are or having to do with the idea of not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is that based on experience?
Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest, like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life that we have very close relationships and a deep love for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that first happened with me when I left the church, and I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have a lot of people who I love deeply who still believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something, or that God like still hold this idea, this very
like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like, oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like this is in conset question to me. I don't know her,
like I don't know. But then we get in the habit of doing that where it's like and this is why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like, we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I.
Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow, I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking, They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who denies my right to exist, just as an example, how can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it worth fighting for.
I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right, because there always is a line, right, there are times where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness. But I think what makes it worth fighting for is our connection to other people is why we do this, why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us most of the time than it even does for those
other people. And if our goal is to only stand in a circle with people who agree with us one hundred percent of the time, we are going to end up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place to end up standing up, because we need other people, and so we have to take a realistic look at
our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that I was talking to this guy and he was like red in the face, telling me how he's not going to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is out there. He's like going on and on all these vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that.
They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just like how to ask. I was like, how long are you going to begin? You know? He was like a year, and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day, like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people in our life that are we are willing to grow away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate.
We show our parents one tweet and then if they don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had for like decades, then we're like, you don't get it, you don't get me, Like I'm gone, And I don't think we give enough weight to like the connection and to the humanity of the relationships. Not I agree with you.
I also think some of my most challenging relationships have been my greatest teachers.
M I have a pretty ideologically diverse group of friends that you know, are across the spectrum of beliefs, but just being honest, Like, sometimes I feel like I'm going to be criticized for that in today's society. Like I feel like sometimes people are gonna be like, I can't believe you hang out with this person because if you look at if you look at their views online, they
are pretty extreme and they're very different from mine. However, I have a lot of respect for this person because I think they have a lot of integrity, But I feel like people would have an issue with that, you know.
And they probably would and do. And that's where, Gosh, one of the things I talk about that like prompted me to even set work in this book was like my response when we were like waiting for the verdict for George Floyd's murder Trap, and I was sitting in my house and we're waiting for the verdict and then it comes and it's guilty, and I'm like, immediately before I did anything else, I picked it up my phone and I was like, I need to post about this,
and so I was like, guilty praising emojis, and then I was like, no, should need praise to that. I go like and look at another activist online and she was like, you shouldn't be celebrating Georgia should be alive. So I'm like, oh, take the price praisans out, just guilty, and I look at another thing. They're like, don't let anyone tell you can't celebrate, like this is a win. I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, praisans are back. And then now I go to another page and then they're like,
this is this is justice. I kinda believe that the same you can okay, and then like freaking out and I'm like, what is happening? Yeah, Like at the end of the day, I think we have a huge where we will experiencing something and we will be doing something that feels right to us, like this is what I want to say. These are the people I feel comfortable having friendships with, this is the work I could feel
downable doing. And then we have everyone else's voice who isn't living that experience influencing what we're doing.
So how do you approach conversation in online spaces now? Because you write about a friend of yours who was publicly shamed for something that she said online that many people perceive to be racist, and you mentioned hearing the verdict from the George Floyd trial. What do you say now, Because it does feel like it's impossible to serve this many masters.
It is, and so I think you have to decide who are you serving, right, and you have to appropriately take like appropriately place context and people and feedback. Right. Like one of my best friends in the entire world called me one time and was like, hey, just so you know, like you're not being a good friend. And I was like, oh, idially shut down, close the laptop. I'm zoned in. I'm listening why this person has been
in my life for twenty years. Right, So she's like, think random DM from lady in Ohio saying I don't like the way you did that. I'm not shutting it down. I'm just like letting that ride off, you know. And I think we we hold so many things to the same standard that aren't the same. I'm like, this feedback, all feedback isn't the same. Yeah, giving weight where it doesn't deserve weight.
One of the tools that you share in how to engage with people that you disagree with is holding space. Holding space is a real thing, and it's it's a therapy term too. Why do you think it's valuable to hold space and sit with the discomfort?
Yeah, I mean I think, like you said, that's some of our greatest learnings and teachers come from these moments. I think if if you would have asked me ten years ago, like my ideal life, I would have been like everyday sunshine, every day perfect, every day grass is green. It looks like a claritin commercial, like everything's perfect. But when I look back in my life, those haven't been
the days that have taught me anything. They've been awesome, and when they're there, I'm like, yes, I'm traping through the flowers. But I think it's important because we have to remember that our life is full of mutuality, and if we don't let ourselves sit and hold space for people, then how can we expect people to sit and hold space with us.
So when you say hold space, just to be clear, you mean she like, listen to someone's perspective, listen to their work.
Here's someone's perspective. I think empathy is our greatest tool in things like this, and I keep saying and hammering down empathy is not an endorsement. And I think sometimes we're afraid to empathize with people because we think, oh, if I can empathize with you, then I'm just co signing a new beliefs Like no, you're just humanizing that person having that experience, and that's an important tool.
We need to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with Britt Barren. And we're back with author Britt barn You wrote something about empathy that's really stuck with me. You've talked about how it's so important for us to access empathy for the earlier versions of ourselves so that we can do the same for others. And when I think about that, I think about your brother who's a police officer, and I think about the fact
that y'all probably don't see eye to eye on certain issues. Yeah, do you find yourself having to extend that empathy for his points of view?
Yes, yes, all the time. And again, like I am so close to the version of myself before this one and before that one and before that one, and sometimes it's easy to forget because like as we grow in of all, we feel more like ourselves. But I was like, oh yeah, I was at church like kids, sitting in the pew being like, oh my gosh, thank God, Like I found the right way to like live right and go to Heiman and I know all the right answers.
I remember a sense of psychological safety watching over me, being like, oh, thank god, I found the right translation of the right book to have the right afterlifely, you know what I mean? Things now that I'm like what, you know what I mean? But I remember when it felt like to like wholeheartedly believe that and to like
embody that. And so when I talk to people or like people in my life who have relations I disagree with, sometimes I'm like, I'm just I'm gonna get a little bit curious, like because I remember feeling so down bad for a way of life that I now actively work against, right, like actively fight against some of the things that I believed like to like ten toos down for like American Christianity. And now I'm like, oops, yeah, we need to fight against it, you know what I mean. And that pendulum
swing is so helpful for me when I'm talking to people. Yeah, like my brother who's like America police. You know the things I'm like, I too remember how comforting it is to feel like I am on the right side. That can change the tone of the conversation. I say all the time, I like, the work never changes for me.
I'm a person who believes in liberation for all people, but my approach to the work changes all the time when I access empathy, and then I start to realize that if everyone's not avided, then it's not actual liberation. This is all very radical, you know.
You know, these are radical ideas in today's society, and this is not This is not how people offer You're offering a different perspective, like a new way of approaching relationships today.
Empathy isn't passive. It's actually way more radical. Staying in relationships and coming to the table with people and working things out in a slow, nuanced, like empathetic kind way isn't passive. It's radical. I think what we've been doing is absolutely polarizing, and we're seeing that play out now.
I'm like, we're about to come up on a chasm that's going to be impassable, and we're about to be so far up on our high horses on either side that we can't even hear each other came reach each other like we need something different and to be able to come to the center and have conversations with people we already know. So I'm saying, set yourself up well for the conversations you're going into. If someone is saying, I straight up hate queer people and I don't U
should exist, I'm not having a conversation with you. But if someone is saying, like, I'm trying to reconcile this with my faith, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, well, okay, what about this, and we're having a real conversation, I'll stay in the conversation. But my like, I don't think we can ever discount how much of an impact the narratives that we consume have on the conversations in our real life.
You reference this James Baldon quote that I love. I imagine the reason people cling so tightly to hate is because they fear once the hate is gone, they'll be forced to deal with the pain. How has that language changed? How you see the extremes that we're dealing with right now? I mean, it's I think I see that play out more now than I have at any.
Point in my life. So I try to keep hold an empathetic lens. And that doesn't mean a life without accountability. But I imagine, and even in that James Baldwin quote, you have folks who have had ideologies, who have had apologies, that have these ideas, And now I'm coming to you and saying the thing that you've sought for sixty years actually makes you fundamentally a bad person. So come on
and agree with me. Aren't you a bad person? And so at the beginning of my career, I used to do a lot of anti racism trainings, corporate trainings, so you can imagine it was awesome. What year was that when you were doing this? Oh my gosh, I started in twenty eighteen, but then I did a lot in twenty twenties. You can imagine. Yeah. And what's so interesting
is I would always urge people. I'm like, can we just get to a point where we the term racist isn't necessarily as pejorative as it is descriptive, Like, we live in a society that puts out racist narratives and you have probably consumed them. Right, if we take this this isn't an individual issue. This is a systemic issue,
and the system has touched you. And so if we could do that, then like, and I'm just trying to open people up to this idea of like, it's going to be painful to realize that you believed something that wasn't necessarily true. It's goal. It's a little bit painful to change your mind. This is what James Baldmon is
talking about. After I spent years telling girls about purity culture and going on missions trips and telling people like, oh my gosh, you know, we'll help you in this place where you don't have enough resources, this prayer, you know what I mean. It's painful to think about things I did before now, and so I think it just when I go into these conversations, I'm like, hey, you there are some things going on in the world and you may have consumed those narratives and it's okay to
change your mind, right. I think we make it so not okay for people to change their mind, even though we're their goal is for them to change their mind. And I'm like, why are you making it so hard? It's always okay to change your mind.
I love that this one rings very true to me mending a betrayal. So I had a good friend, good girlfriend from growing up who I found with my boyfriend. Okay, wild, wild story. Yeah, she's still my friend all those years later, he's not my boyfriend. I decided the relationship was worth keeping. All my other girlfriends were just like a gas, like, how could you keep her in your life? I posted it on TikTok one point, and the internet was a blaze. They really disagreed with me too. So I want your
opinion on betrayal. If someone seems genuinely remorseful and wants to reconcile, even if it was a horrible betrayal, how do you decide if the relationship's worth rebuilding.
That's I want so many more details, but I feel like, okay, I need to go to the TikTok a huge I need to. I didn't think i'd need to beginning the conversation. That's a great question, and I think a lot of people wrestle with that point blank, shortest answer only you know. And I think if I had a magic wand and I could bop everybody in the world on the head and give them one thing, it would be more self trust because almost all the time we know, we know when we need to lean and we know when we
need to step out. And I think something I talk about even in the book is we've done a weird thing with forgiveness where we made it feel like it's like a moment or it always requires the person who like did like did the betraying. And I always talk about forgiveness as like an action verb, as like something that we are actively doing. It's this ongoing process and
not this moment. And so I think as we move through relationships with people who betrayal us, like keep a pulse check on like that forgiveness barometer, and if we have it, if we have it, and trust yourself, like what's the internet know about the depth of your relationship.
I'd never heard anyone say that forgiveness is a verb that is so beautiful and rings so true to me. Even five six years later, I still find myself having to actively forgive that I love her. Okay, partnering through change, And I'm curious your thoughts on this, because you are married. A lot of my friends that have long term partners, those partners or my friends experience major shifts in their
identity in their beliefs in their careers. How do you suggest navigating the tension between evolving individually and staying connected as a couple.
I read this quote that I just loved so much, and it was about relationships, and it said loving someone is attending one thousand funerals of who they used to be and one thousand birthday parties for who they were coming. And I was like absolutely, wow. And I think in partnership like that can often be just such a great mirror to other relationships, to your own self and to be able to celebrate and be engaged with those changes.
And I think a safe relationship that allows people to say like, I think this is changing where I'm sensing this, and you don't go like, well that's not who I marri And you get to go like, oh, I'm curious about that. I want to know more than I think. You know, you set that foundation because it's all going to change, it's all supposed to change, it's all meant to change, you know.
So when it gets into the nitty gritty of like practical application of all this, obviously that's work. It's a lot tougher, Yeah, especially when you're when you're trying to navigate between Okay, is the thing that I have a problem with? Is it someone's behavior or is it a belief that I hold m that's core to their DNA.
So how do you know when to set form boundaries? That's a great question. I think when it comes to boundaries, something I like to always say is that boundaries should always be like set and then reassessed, like this should be a constant like thing that we do. And so if you're not sure, if you're like, what's happening? Is this the belief is this? Take some space. If you can't hold space, take space is something I say all
the time, like, just take some space. I think sometimes we think that the options are go no contact with our family or stay permanently at the table now like there is such a wide world in between, and so set boundaries for whatever you need as you need them, and then reassess. I think during a heightened political season, during a heightened emotional season, during a heightened creative season, my boundaries all change. If I'm writing a book, I'm like,
good luck hearing from me. They shift and change. And the strongest boundary I have in my life, without question, is with information. Rights with the news, it's with social media, it's with like things that I can really that impact my life. I think with relationships it's the same. I think I was just talking to something about this who was like, I don't want to like cut my family off, but like, okay, it's just too much, like it thinks to me, is too much. And I was like, Oh,
don't don't go that's this. These little boundaries are in a sign that we're like throwing in the white towel. It's giving us more confidence for when we do show up, that we are showing up in the way that we want. It's not like advantageous to be like, oh, I'm just going to force myself to stay at the table, give yourself some space, and then get back in there.
As we step into this new year, and maybe someone listening is thinking about mending fenses with someone in their life, or even trying to hold on to a bond that feels really difficult, what is your advice for them? What is step one? That's a great question. I feel like step one is to always ask yourself if you are willing and ready to do what it would take to
either keep that connection or men's that connections. I think sometimes we just don't have it, and that's okay, and sometimes we really are willing, but you have to know
whether or not you are in that space. I think I had a friend, she was my best friend at the time that I got married, and I asked her to be a brides and early wedding as one does, and she said yes, and then when it really came down to it, she said no because we were two women getting married, and she worked at a church and there was a lot of things, and this was like my best friend and someone I loved dearly, and we tried really hard to keep that connection for a while,
and then we just couldn't, like we just couldn't do it, like we didn't have it, and we didn't talk for about four years. A year and a half ago, we met up for lunch and we were just such different people, and we have become such different people that we had everything we needed that we just didn't have four years ago. And now we like talk every day again, and all my best friends WHOA And so I think sometimes urgency
is our greatest enemy. It's okay to have space. Everything doesn't have to happen right now in one conversation in one season. I'm super grateful that we didn't talk for four years, because we wouldn't have been able to have the relationship we have now if I would have just like ripped my teeth through everything that bothered me that I knew I couldn't get.
Past in the moment.
That was so wise, Britt, Before we go, how do you exercise your curiosity on the daily? What do you do to keep that muscle firing?
Oh? Great question. You can't give what you don't have, and so I always try to use it on myself. First. I am endlessly curious about every emotion that comes up. I think I used to live in a world in a mindset where I'd be like, oh, I'm feeling this. No, I'm not like, shove that down, shove that down. I think being curious about myself first makes me realize how absolutely vast every single human being is that at any moment, I am feeling a multitude of things. I'm like, why
am I feeling angry? I'm like, wait, no, what's the day to day? Like? Oh my gosh, two years ago I had this really hard thing. Is my body remembering that? Oh? Should I bake this? Breadway, I kind of missed my dog. Wait, no, that conversation my mom was kind of weird. Right, No, that's me And that was thirty seconds this morning, right. And so I think when I allow myself to be generous to like all the nuanced eye hold, then I can serve to hold it for somewhere else.
Thank you so much for joining us on the right side, brit Thanks for having me. Britt Baron is the author of Do You Still Talk to Grandma? It's available wherever you get your books.
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by five time Olympic medalist Mary and Jones. She's here to talk about overcoming failure and moving forward from past mistakes. You don't want to miss this.
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