¶ Real Estate Attorney Discusses Transaction Issues
from real estate to real life and everything in between , the brad weisman show and now your host , brad weisman . All right , we're back in the studio for another awesome show .
Of course , thanks for joining us , by the way , and also wanted to say real quick thanks for our sponsors comfort pro uh , we really appreciate their new sponsor here , so we want to thank them for sponsoring the show and we have a good show today , a really good show .
We have the real estate show podcast is a really cool podcast and the one that actually runs it as Tiffany Weber . Now , she's from down in Lake Norman , north Carolina , which is a really cool place . If you've ever been , it's actually very nice , and I've been watching her podcast . I've been watching and following her Instagram and she just has great information .
She has great topics and I thought , man , I got to get her on the show . So we did so . Tiffany Weber , how you doing ?
Hello Brad .
Good to see you .
Good to see you too . I'm so excited to be here . It's a big honor . I love your show as well . Oh , thank you .
I appreciate that Well , she , you have a great show . You really do . It's packed with information and I got to tell you if anybody's out there looking to to purchase a home , especially in North Carolina . Uh , but even so , what I thought was interesting , tiffany , is that there's a lot of these , the topics that you bring up , are not just for North Carolina .
It's very , very universal , and that was the cool part about your when I when I was watching some of your shows and listening some of your shows , and it was always very good content . So , yeah , kudos to what you're doing . I love it .
So let's dig in and I guess Ryan's in the background , your husband he is in behind this wall is his office okay so yeah , he and he really like he does all of the hard work .
You know it's like really lucky of me to be able to come sit and he really like he does all of the hard work . You know it's like really lucky of me to be able to come sit down and he's got the lights set up , the camera and . I just get to talk and have fun .
Yeah , so you are an attorney at Thomas and Weber . And how long you been an attorney ?
Oh gosh , uh , nine , nine years . I worked in the corporate world and then went to law school at night , so I've been working longer than that , but practicing law nine years .
Good for you . Good for you . So how long has the real estate show been going on ?
Oh gosh . Well , we started the YouTube channel in its current iteration in January 2020 . But the podcast form of it was introduced as a pet project of mine , like not long before my daughter was born .
So beginning of 2022 , 2022 , there you go . So you , you got some . You got some shows under your belt . I'll tell you that much .
A few .
Yeah , that's great , that's great . So let's jump in here , okay . So what I really liked is that , when I listened to your shows , a lot of times attorneys and this is not meant to put everybody in one box at all , it's not but many times we will find , if we're in a transaction , if it's not a real estate attorney , they tend to not like us as realtors .
But what I found is that you're actually working with realtors really well . It seems like you do that a lot very well . Tell me , how did you get into that situation or that position ?
Yeah , Well , I have to give some credit to my former law partner . He passed away a couple of years ago , but I came from the litigation background . I was a litigation attorney to start and there's really not a team aspect of litigation .
You know , it's like everything's adversarial and I found it so refreshing to come into real estate where everyone really is working towards one common goal . There's a , there's a party that wants to sell , there's a party that wants to buy , there's a lender who wants to help that buyer buy and there's agents on both sides working tirelessly to make that happen .
So I know I just play one small part of that and we can't succeed in that goal without everybody's cooperation . So I'll tell you one thing I don't want to do the job of a real estate agent . If I really did want to do that , that's the profession I would be in .
So the real estate agent is invaluable to the transaction and I think we'd be crazy to deny that .
Yeah , and it's funny , you're an attorney state , so it's a little different than Pennsylvania . In Pennsylvania we don't . I mean we use attorneys if there's usually if there's a problem , we'll use attorneys at that point , but a lot of times .
but then again also , I know like our forms , everything we use is created by some very high paid attorneys from the state of Pennsylvania through the Pennsylvania Association of Realtors . So you know we do use attorneys . It's just we use it on a very large level and we all use the same forms .
So it is there and we couldn't survive without the attorneys for PAR writing our agreements . We couldn't do it . That's not our , that's not what we do .
The costs would just keep going up too If you had to have I mean , we have form , we have standard forms as well , and I'm so thankful because the cost of custom draft essentially every time a contract it would make it unaffordable to do business .
Yeah , I agree with you . I agree with you . What ? What are the issues that you see ? I mean , we have our own issues , but you probably have some of the same stuff . What are the issues that you see coming up most often in a transaction right now ?
I'm not sure if in Pennsylvania you're required to get a survey , but in North Carolina you're not . It's discretionary .
We're not either . We're not either , just so you know we don't have to .
So this is probably common . I think it would be shared in both states . In North Carolina , our standard contracts say sellers got to convey clear title , and it's often forgotten that a survey issue is a title issue .
Um , so people will think I can't get my survey done in the due diligence period , or um , you know , like I'm going to buy it regardless , only to find out there's some serious encroachment , or um , like in Lake Norman , we've got impervious issues because of the lake , I mean like we got all that's , we're crawling with that stuff and you can only find that
stuff out if you get a survey . So you know , opting not to get a survey and you close , you've lost all your leverage , you lost your opportunity , you're accepting the condition of the property as it is and then now you're living with that issue yourself . So that's one of the most common things that we see .
But then we also , like , constantly have the disputes about , you know , making repairs . Yeah , I feel like that's everywhere , like who's responsible to make repairs , if at all ? And in our state a seller doesn't have to .
Oh , interesting . Well , we don't have to . But I mean , well , the past several years , because of the crazy market we're having , we're not . I mean , we did inspections .
I'm in the business for 32 years , so we did inspections for a very long period of time and then , when it got very competitive on this this super sellers market is what I call it it got to a point where inspections are being waived , and really they've been waived for now two , three years . We all get concerned about .
Is that going to rear its ugly head at some point ? But what are you going to do if a buyer says look , you know what , in order for me to compete , I'm dropping the inspections , and we have you know they'll sign something that states that they're doing that . But you know , from there on out , we think there could be issues with that .
Are you seeing issues at all ? Yet from no inspections ?
Oh , absolutely , I think North Carolina is . I don't know that . I don't know if Pennsylvania has this . Do you have a due diligence fee in Pennsylvania ?
We do not .
Okay . So this is something that people really don't like about North Carolina is that we have a non-refundable due diligence fee . A lot of people moving from out of state think it's a scam .
Right , right right .
So who gets the due diligence fee ?
Who gets that the seller ?
The seller immediately .
Oh , wow it's non-refundable .
Wow so it's basically buying the time off market . You know , because the buyer backs out . You know because the you know the buyer backs out and at least the seller was compensated for their time off market and it's not required , but it is the custom . So you know , it's really- .
And what does that cost ? What is that due diligence fee ?
Well , during the craziest times I had an investor client put up the entire purchase price in the due diligence fee $180,000 investment property . He put it all in due diligence immediately non-refundable If he walked away . He's walking away from 180,000 with nothing to show for it . Wow , that's someone who's buying the property . You know one way , or ?
another buying that property . But you know , it really kind of depends on the purchase price . But and how desperate . It was not uncommon in 2020 and 2021 to see a hundred plus thousand dollars due diligence non-refundable . So you know , we , we still is that in addition ?
is that an addition to the like an escrow deposit or it is , you know , and that actually makes I actually kind of like that idea , because it's really hard to get take . Get that escrow money if there's a problem , right , but it's if there's a due diligence fee that's upfront and done , then you don't have to worry . That's very interesting .
I'll have to bring that up here in Pennsylvania .
Yeah , they might not like you for it .
Yeah , I know . Well , then I'll say it's your fault , I get the reason I'll blame it on you . I didn't come up with it , so I'm fine with that . I'm going to say there was some attorney in North Carolina that told me that this is the way to do it . So you know , I'll allow it , that's fine . Yeah , you can deal with it . So that's a .
That's something that was going on was a due diligence fee .
Wow , let's go back to the , when you were talking about the um , the surveys , you know , and one thing that we do find in our area is when you have an older area like our , our area , here there's houses that are , you know , 90 years old , and from owner to owner to owner , they all said , well , the , the right pin is over there and the left pin is
over there , and that maple tree is the other side of the one pin . So what ends up happening is , over time , those property lines are not really accurate , and then people don't want to get surveys and sometimes we have issues . I'm sure you run into that also .
Oh , absolutely Well . Also , we have to consider that in 90 years surveying technology has improved in quite a bit , so we can be much more accurate now than we could 90 years ago .
And you know , I don't know if people realize this , but if the maple tree is one of the markers , trees grow , so at a certain point it's getting bigger , so the lime is going to move at some point so true , just like a creek .
A creek , creeks move too .
Oh yeah , yeah oh yeah yeah so we have that same problem .
I mean it's you know , just a couple weeks ago I was reviewing title on a property that had been platted uh and then in the 20s um so interesting you said 90 years ago because it was a very old plat and the surveyor was like , yeah , from those best we can tell the entire plat has all the wrong .
Like the plat doesn't actually line up with the actual pins on the ground , so everybody's plat is wrong .
Yeah , I always wonder where do you start from there ? You know , like , how do you ? You know how do you start . That's why surveying I don't understand at all Like to me . It's just that it's a mystery to me . I watch them out there when they do it .
Another job that I don't want .
Yeah , no , thank you , no , thank you .
¶ Protecting Against Real Estate Scams
So you know , I know one of your shows you were talking about scams . What should we be aware of when it comes to scams that are coming out ? I mean , there's new ones all the time .
We have wire scams , all this . What are you seeing out there ? What's the latest with that ? Well , anytime I talk about scams , I never miss an opportunity to bring up wire fraud . It's the most prevalent scam there is . I tell every client that comes through our office , assume they're going to get fraudulent wiring instructions at some point in the transaction .
And when they hear that up front , yeah , it scares them a little bit , but it also makes them scrutinize very carefully any email to do with money , which is what we want . We want them to be extremely careful and also requiring you can't send a wire until you verify those wire instructions . Right , but you know that's something that is extremely common .
So one of the lesser known and is growing in popularity scams is a vacant land scam , have you ?
had any encounters with that . Yet this sounds juicy . What is it ?
It is . It is very juicy , so let me set the stage for you . This happens most often . Vacant lot Owner lives out of state . From the vacant lot , the property is unencumbered by a mortgage , so own , free and clear owner is not near the property , um , and no house on it .
So what happens is someone impersonates the seller and lists the property either by themselves or through a real estate agent that I've . I've seen it happen both ways . And they get even to the point where , in fact , I had an attorney a couple of weeks ago tell me he recorded the deed but before he sent the wire they realized it was a scam .
So they were able to . You know it was hard to unwind , but they were able to unwind it . At least the scammer didn't get money . But these people are saying I have to be a mail away , I can't come to the closing because you know I live out of state , which happens .
This happens legitimately . Yeah , it definitely happens , yeah , yeah .
But you add on the fact that the property is unencumbered and it's a vacant lot , then your hackles need to go up a little bit .
Yeah .
And one thing North Carolina is telling us is that it's everybody's job to you know , it's the agent's job job to you know , it's the agent's job , it's the attorney's job to try to verify the identity of these sellers in these scenarios .
So one thing that we do in our office is , anytime we get a contract for vacant land , we are emailing or mailing a letter to the address on the tax card , not something that the seller has told us we're independently finding their mailing address and sending them a letter saying hey , thanks , we've got your contract .
Uh , it's part of our fraud prevention efforts . We're just verifying that you are selling this property . Um , and then another thing is we won't allow the seller to arrange their own notary . Some will say I'm just going to take it to the bank , or I've got a notary that works in my office . I will just sign our paperwork there . It's not a real notary .
So we require the notary and then we won't close it unless we verified . Like , gotten on , just like you and I are talking right now , seeing them face to face , and the requirement of the notary and the requirement of a video call in some capacity is cutting out like catching a lot of scammers .
Wow , I never heard that one . That's a new one for us . You must have a lot more vacant land than we do too , Cause I think that's probably um that I'm sure that has something to do , and also for it to be paid off , not encumbered , like . That's amazing . So there must be like land that's just sitting down there for a while .
People don't live there and they're . That's what a what a crazy scam , wow .
Now do you guys land ?
yeah , yeah , do you guys get the deed scam ? Do you get the one where the they send in the mail to the , to the cell or to the new buyer ? Hey , if you want a certified copy of the deed , uh , send in 85 hours , yeah yes you get that one , they've gone up on price on us oh , they really really like 97 .
Now we keep , we keep the letter in the closing room and we and promise you this is coming in the mail to you .
We have a copy too we just show .
I love it , I'm so glad well , if you want the cheaper one , I can get you that if you want that , just in case you want a cheaper certified copy , that's crazy on our fake , on our scam yeah , it's that one there , they , they made a lot of money off that I mean , cause I know a lot of people in the beginning , when that first came out , a lot of
people were doing it . They just didn't know you know , they . They didn't know that they were given a copy .
Unfortunate Like you get . You can I guess technically , if they deliver there , they're sending you what they're saying they'll send you free .
Yeah , you know , you don't have to pay for that stuff . In fact , you can go online now , today , and get a copy of a deed . It's very easy to do . One of the things , too , I saw in your one of your shows that you had it was the 12 clear signs of a bad real estate agent .
Now , first off , yeah , I know , hugo , I got a little nervous when I read that , because when I read that I was like I was like , well , I wonder if any of these are me . You know , I hope not .
I mean , I'm hoping I'm the , I'm hoping I'm the good real estate agent , but tell me some of these signs of the the bad real estate agent , so that people know what to stay away from .
Yeah . So first let me say I got to tell my husband that his title worked . If that's what you were thinking like , let me see what these are , to make sure .
Well , and I'm running down through . And I'm running down through and I think maybe because I'm a real estate agent , but it caught my eye and it was like , oh , my goodness , I got , I got to check this out , you know .
Yeah , I'll be fair To be clear , I don't remember every single thing on the list . Yeah , that's right , just a couple One of the ones that reminded that , I remember is that and we see this an agent who's afraid to just put the bad news out there . Just be upfront about the . You know , don't try to conceal problems .
You know , don't try to conceal problems . Um , you know , don't try to make something sound better than it actually is . It's hard to make decisions if you don't know that what could happen . Um , and another thing is like just not not pursuing any sort of education .
You know , like getting the license , but okay , you got the license , I mean , I mean , you're a great example of use , you were up to date , but you have been in this business a long time .
You could have been frozen in time 32 years ago and you're like I got it now and just not keeping up to date , and that would mean you'd be given a lot of outdated or bad advice to clients . So if you're unwilling to keep yourself in the game and continue learning and evolving , then that's not great for a client .
No , and I agree , and we have this discussion a lot of times with agents in our company , because one of the things I people say well , how do you stay in at 32 years ? How did , how did you get to this point ? Which always blows my mind . I'm in that long , but you know a lot of . It's just staying relevant .
And staying relevant means you need to always be a student of your profession and and I'm sure as an attorney , you the laws change . I mean , you know every , every day , you know Um , so you know . I think you're right , I think you really need to stay on top of your game .
You got to make sure you're learning what's new and what's out there , because how are you going to represent a person in a transaction if , um , if you're , if , if they may be no more than you , you know , not , not a good , not a good plan .
It doesn't instill confidence , that's for sure .
Yeah , you know it was interesting too . So you are a real estate attorney . Now you do like municipality stuff also . Do you do that kind of stuff ?
Um , well , I'm curious , what do you mean by that ? Like , uh , like townships and the city ?
or or um like , if somebody comes to you and they're doing a subdivision or something like that , would you ? Be , involved in that too . Okay , cool .
Yeah , we help developers and builders , so we kind of see it from the 200-acre parcel of land to all the way through when that first homeowner is buying it and moving in with their new board .
Oh , that's cool , that's awesome , very cool . So one of the other things people keep talking about this that's cool , that's awesome , very cool . So one of the other things people keep talking about this do you see foreclosures starting an uptick or do you see that starting to come into the market there ?
I am seeing a little bit more , not so much that I am super concerned . Yet we have always had people interested in foreclosures . They'll contact us to do a title search because they're about to go , in a couple of days , to a courthouse to bid on a foreclosure property .
We're seeing it slightly more now , but again not so much that I'm like , oh no , the sky is falling . Maybe , you know , in eight months I'll tell you if that's any different . But you know I would say it's only a minor uptick at this point .
Yeah , and that's kind of what we're seeing too , because of the equity that people have today , I mean you know , they're saying it was it . Oh man
¶ Property Rights and Legal Issues
, almost like 50 percent of people have like more than 30 percent equity or something you know it's . It's crazy , and I think one of the problems we had in 2008 is was there was no equity . Nobody had equity , right , it was the opposite .
Yeah , so as soon as somebody lost a little bit of overtime in their job , they couldn't afford the property they were in , and that snowballed into a horrible situation .
Do you guys have the right of redemption in Pennsylvania ?
Right .
So in North Carolina a borrower can I mean , we've got our at the foreclosure sale , we've got our upset periods , so the 10 days can turn into another 10 days , and so on and so forth . I think that's pretty common . But here , like the borrower can , until that final upset period has ended , the borrower can redeem the property you are paying off or selling .
Yeah , up until a sheriff sale . That's what we're seeing more . So Up until sheriff sale , they can . They can whatever , because banks really don't want the property . I mean , banks are not in the business to own real estate , they just they don't want it .
So a lot of times you know , before it goes to sheriff sale , before the final sale , in order to you know for the bank to buy it back , um yeah , they , they , if they bring that check or they have that money , it's , it's theirs . I mean , nobody ever wants to take a home from somebody .
Ours is maybe a little bit opposite of yours , in that the sale happens first and then you've got just the payment after that . Oh , wow , it's , you know it , it could . The upset bid periods could continue on and on and on . You could keep getting another 10 days by someone raising the bid , but it essentially it's not over till it's over .
They keep that right and I think it's common between the two states ? Yeah .
Do you guys ? What about eminent domain ? Do you guys see , in your state or in your local area ? We're always fighting that here locally , just making sure that .
I mean , obviously we're realtors so we fight , for us is is eminent domain and that that it needs to be a last uh resort , that if that , if the government or highway needs to go through or something needs to happen , uh , they need to really be a last resort .
And if it does have to happen for the good of the public or whatever you know it's called um , then at that point there's better be some good compensation on it .
What is that ? What is that eminent domain ?
Eminent domain . You want to explain it ?
You're the attorney I mean I'm happy to , but if anything I say you're like I wouldn't have said it that way . Please feel free . Yeah , that's right , no problem . Yeah , eminent domain is the right of the government to take private property for a public use . So the examples you were giving , like a highway , that's for a public use Sure .
And there sometimes can be very good reasons why those are needed and the only way to get the land for it is to take it from private individuals . But our constitution and our federal laws say you can't do that without just compensation . And we're having that here . In fact , the building I'm sitting in right now .
My husband and I own this commercial building and we just negotiated a nice settlement with the North Carolina department of transportation for a road widening project .
Just right , on the road . There we go , oh , there can be some benefits . Yeah , I think what it is , it's the , it's the stuff that's more frivolous , that it's like okay , the government's going to buy this golf course , um , because they don't want a developer to buy it . You know what I mean ?
Like that , that kind of stuff , or taking over something because they don't want private enterprise to have it or to do something with that . That's where it gets a little . That's not right .
We don't have as much of that , thank goodness , at least not in my immediate area . It's almost all for infrastructure improvement . Yeah , and I get that you know it's needed and nobody really loves when you have to deal with this .
But at least it's not just because the government doesn't want to see a private individual or entity do what they want to do with the property , exactly , exactly .
That's interesting that you're actually having that go on right now . What are the odds ?
right .
That's wild . Is there anything else that you oh , I know what I wanted to ask you Before we end the show here . What is this Iron Lands Independence , what is that ? I saw the picture . There's like this big iron right , like in the middle of this town or somewhere , and then I guess they want to make it that the land around it is independent , or something .
I don't understand it .
So a little bit of context . Um , our youtube editor that we we've been working with for five or six years yeah he has . He now has his own insanely massive youtube channel . He's got a million plus subscribers and he teach it , uses it to teach civics , um , like civics education in a very accessible way .
So you know , this is his like civics project of saying , hey , if we wanted to start a country around this iron statue in Asheville , north Carolina , how would we do that ? So he tagged me in and said hey , can you look into this , Like how , what would be our first steps if we wanted to make this a country ? And he has blown up with that .
Yeah , because and I saw you had a whole thing on it and and I was like at first , like what is this ? Then I started kind of grasping it . So that's what it's about . It's like a , it's almost like an experiment .
Yeah , it is . It's an experiment to see how . What would it take ?
Oh , that's awesome . I'm going to dig into that more Actually . That's really cool . Into that more actually , that's really cool . Yeah , very cool , very cool . Well , I got to tell you I appreciate you for coming on today . I really do . I've been watching your show , been seeing you on Instagram , facebook you are awesome at all of that stuff .
Uh , how can somebody get in touch with you , either in North Carolina or just to chat with you about any questions they have ? Um , you know what's the best way to get in touch with you ?
Uh , so easiest way to find me thomasandwebercom On the internet . We're Law at the Lake , most places that you search . And then Real Estate Lawyer on YouTube .
Awesome , awesome . You got to check out the show too . The Real Estate Show with Tiffany Weber is really good . Orion is on there sometimes too . I hear him on the show in the background , so that's awesome . Thank you so much . We really appreciate you being on the show .
Thank you for inviting me . It was great .
All right , no problem , see ya All right . All right , there you have it . Tiffany Weber . She's just , she's really doing a great job . Uh , the real estate show You've got to check it out . Great podcast . She's from down there , lake Norman , north Carolina . So if you are in North Carolina , you definitely want to look her up .
If you're buying a house and you're looking for some representation from an attorney , she is the one . Yeah , so that's about it . Thanks for watching the show and don't forget September 19th we will be having a show here live . All right , that's about it . Bye-bye .