How Bad is The Batman?

Hello, Kitties. It's your old pal, John, the voice of. The crib keeper and you're listening to the bottom shelf. Alright, guys. 2 boxes down. Wait. Did did did you guys catch that flash of light? Works let's? Oh, man. What's happening with the wormhole hole? Alright. Everyone check. We're always wait. Bam put... You don't need... Okay. When you say hand check, you can put the tentacles down a little bit. But they don't they don't get as append. They're not hands.

You sit hands. Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. You you ce pod. Alright. We're safe from the llama with hats. Well, you know what? Weird things keep happening, like, for for real. In my bedroom. It... I... My bed turned into a baked potato. So that's the thing. Was at least cooked all way through. It was delicious. Warm fluffy. It was and fully loaded. Anyway, maybe if we just keep going, s might here. Maybe maybe happens. I got a box. Let me over the box. Spit it up.

Why are were you watching this movie? I'm very confused. What movie? It's called the Batman. Why are we watching this movie? It's not the movie you need. It's the 1 you deserve. What did I do? Prepare yourself to discover a world of terrible movies. See little brass. Hello, movie lovers and movie haters. And welcome to the bottom shelf a part of the Geek Versions podcast at a podcast network of Da devoted Geek certified devoted to letting people know they are alone their characters. If he'll

past this moment to this. We love you who care about you. There's a plan and purpose for your life. And if it... Do you doubt it, Bryce can hug you with all 8 of his arms for I've got them to spare. Those are tentacles, not arms. Oh, that's fair. Alright, Ladies Jim. Welcome to the bottom shelf. We typically review terrible movies, but we're stuck in a time warp, and we're not dancing through it. We're just kinda of falling. Let's do the time warp begin. Time warp hard. I didn't say the wrong

thing. He anyways, by the way, ladies. So we're watching good movies because debatable. Okay. Well, critically critically declared okay movies, but So we've had AAA fun time so far. We watched a deep impact recently. And did. That was that was a fun movie. Was it? III recall thinking it was a fun movie. No, must. I mean, it was only, like, 20 minutes ago that we talked about it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Totally. And then we... Before that we watched lady hawk. Yeah. Now that's a good movie. Was it?

It was. It really was. So ladies and gentlemen, we have opened up the next box, and it is called the bad. I'm gonna start calling this the wormhole hole of John hate because that's where that's what really what it's starting to feel like. I mean, at least, celeste was lucky enough to get zap out of here, but not... Okay. So for everybody at home who doesn't understand why I am having issues. Like, I have been avoiding this batman movie since it came out. Like, even before it came out.

Like... And and Dallas can testify to Like, when they announced that Robert Patti was gonna be playing batman, I made a meme with... No. Wait. It wasn't... Robert Patti that I made the need for. That was for Ban ben A. I put not my batman. But he was still same concept. I was not bats. I was not into sparkle bats. III do not want a batman that women sw for is what it came down to. So I I would I was a little bit upset about head Bruce Wayne, dude. That's exactly

what he is. It's not the... That's it's Playboy millionaire Bruce Wayne. Anyway. So if but here we are, I'm... I, a good sport, and I will play the game. So I'm so proud of you. I lost the game. I don't I don't. I don't play that game. Why? Why? I've been reflecting on college lately lately. So... Okay. Right. So want you introduce the crowd to the movie. Yes. Introduce them to the thing that I've been running from. Alright. The batman is the first Dc

free Dc film of the 20 twenties. It is directed and written by a Clover filled Lane and Paradox producer Matt Reeves. It stars Robert Pat who transformed from a twilight vampire into the Sparkle bat himself batman. Joining him is the voice of Mary James, zoe K, the first cat woman to go from a brick, House. To a gritty got landscape. Watch over Got as lieutenant James Gordon is the voice of Marvel's the watcher,

Jeffrey Wright. And then the heavily transformed former Bulls eye actor colin Farrell as the penguin. Alright. I was wondering if you're gonna get the the joke about the brick house. Oh, yeah. I didn't get it. She was the voice of cat woman in Batman lego. I wouldn't know. I didn't see that 1. It's okay. Alright. Read the back of the box. Alright. Alright. Back box says this egg killer targets Sc elites. Sending the batman on an investigation as evidence

mounts. He must forge new relationships un the culprit and bring justice amid corruption. I gotta say, modern boxes kinda suck with their epic Yeah. I'm like, that is 1 sentence. Here's the thing. Like, you you you're tapping... You're you're kinda you're tapping on a hot button for me. Movies do less and less to try to impress their audiences with how they advertise themselves. Mh. The biggest tragedy, I think has been movie posters. They all coming out the same now. They

don't make them, like they use do. They used to they used to have, like, outright paintings for movie builder. Yeah. Like, it was a work of art. The last good 1 that I saw You it was a... It and it was intentionally a throwback, but it was for a horror film that came out in the 20 tens called the Dr men, and it looks like a 19 eighties horror. And the the box art for it looks like a 19 eighties horror film movie poster. And it it made me wish that they still did box art and movie

posters. Like they used to because they don't. It used to be like, pun... Like, I'm not intending this pun, but you can take it if you want to, but there used to be an art. It's to movie art. Mh. Yeah. Yeah. III totally get it. I keep thinking about the the original artwork for the Star Wars poster. At the. Yeah. Mh. Yeah. I mean, that kind of stuff is like, it... It's stuff that looks like people spent time on and... Even bad movies like Beast master.

Was semester bath. I didn't enjoy it. It won't haven't seen it in the long time. I haven't seen in a very long time. Coming soon to an episode near you. But I digress. I got some trivia for this being as we're coming up on my segment here. Speaking of colin farrell as the penguin. He went to Starbucks to try out his prosthetics and makeup for the penguin. The... When he had them on for the first time, and nobody recognized him, and he got a lot of stares from people for because he

looked a bit weird. Yeah. Marty he recognized him in the movie. I... You know? I I guess. I knew it was Colin Farrell when I watched the thing. I I I've seen this before. But when I when I first saw it, I knew it was colin Farrell. Right. Right? And I Jill didn't recognize him. He's... He's literally legitimately a talented actor. And when you add in the prosthetics, like, it's like completely different. Person altogether.

Apparently, this little bit o tribute was a big thing because I did this is the first time I've literally sparked a conversation with tribute. Jesus. Robert Patti, when he was auditioning for the role, he actually took a selfie in the bat suit as a moment just in case it didn't work out. I respect that. This is actually the first bat first version of Batman to address the black eye makeup underneath the cow directly. In previous films, the makeup just disappeared when Bruce took his mask off.

Matt Reeves stated that he loved the idea of... Taking off the mask and underneath, there was just sweating and tripping down of the makeup and whatnot. Sorta of looking like a, like, you know, that's scoop. Yeah. And he also stated that his version of the riddle was partially inspired by the infamous Zodiac killer,

for... Which was a unidentified serial killer, who operated in Northern California in the sixties, who also used Cipher in his infamous letters to the police, which made Matt Reeves call him a real life riddle. Yeah. In the film, the riddle begins his video saying, this is the riddle speaking, and the Zodiac began his letter saying this is the Zodiac speaking. The Zodiac also

murdered his victims. Well, wearing a leather suit and a mask and classes over his mask just like the riddle wears in this 1. And then finally, Matt Reeves stated that call and farrell L's version of the penguin takes inspiration from the character F Cor own from the Godfather, in relation to the about that both Barrels characters are under underestimated by others but have huge potential. So that's something that check out for me to watch for when I watch this movie. Yeah.

Definitely I am beat. That I am being forced to watch to be free from this wormhole. But that seems like a good segue to get into our expectations. Yeah. Let's do it. Indeed. And wants to start. Bam. Alright. And expectations. Like I said, I actually saw this in theaters when it came out. So I've seen it before. I remember enjoying it. I remember there's a lot about it that I that I had fun with. So I'm expecting to be entertained. You know, I'd I enjoy superhero movies.

And from what I remember, I liked the angle this 1 took on Batman. So I'm I'm looking forward to it. Dallas. I I'm looking forward to this. As a whole. I... I'm a Batman fan. And I I remember going to the theater and watching this and thoroughly enjoying it. So I'm looking forward to watching it again. I can tell you I am not looking forward to this. I have been at actively avoiding this movie, but I circumstances have worked against me, which is fine. I can play.

But I am a good sport, and I'll sit through it, and I will give it a fair shot because that's what this... That's what this show is about is, taking movies that we otherwise wouldn't watch and giving it a fair shot or maybe we would. But it's the fair shot that's important is is what I'm trying to say, my my hope, John for you going into this today. Is this at speaking of giving a fair shot that you give us fair shot, as you did with the

Battlefield Earth? Yes. Because over the years, you know, have having multiple conversations about this movie in your absolute stain of the idea of this film. Oh, 100 percent. IIIII will be the first person who will openly admit that I am being... I am 100 percent unreasonable when it comes to this movie. Right. So I'm hoping that... That the idea of it doesn't override the experience of watching it for you. You know me, dude. I'll, III can turn off... I can turn off my biases to

watch a movie. That's how I ended up enjoying... Battlefield Earth, and some other movies that everybody wondered what movie I was watching. But you know, I can only speak from where I'm at with it. So... Yep. Anybody else got anything else they wanna say before you go into the movie theater? You please. Anybody? I'm excited, and I need popcorn, and I need taco. And taco machines. Okay. You guys saw that picture I sent. Yeah? Yes.

Alright. Do you still have it? We should probably post that to something years We'll try to find it post up to Instagram later. The dream is reality everybody. I don't suppose we got any community feedback on this 1. Did we? Nope. Nope. We did not get anything on back on this 1. Whoo 3 cheers for organization. Alright. Let's go ahead and head into the Theater. There we go. Dear listeners. This is your opportunity to escape. Our crew has just entered into the media projection chamber.

What horrors and matters that their consume unknown? Their mental state upon their attorneys is, unknown. You have been warned. I'm confused. I thought we were supposed to be watching the batman. This movie called Vengeance. Oh, Branson. Branson, you're the Branson. Hey, somebody's gotta be. Might as well be me. True story. Alright. Gentlemen. Well, we just came out of the theater. We watched a film together. Yes I I feel like we just watched 17 films together. Well, let's both.

Both in length and number of different movies I could pop off that I literally feel like I just watched. It's fair. What, was let's talk about. Was was going into our spoiler free thoughts first. I'm gonna kick it off by saying the talk for you this was freaking beautiful. There was a lot of really good shots in this movie. They... They're go? I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna state when this was in the movie because this is not the spoiler part. Mh. And this isn't a spoiler for me to

describe this 1 camera shot. Mh. But there is at 1 point in this movie, where it's an overhead shot in a completely dark and flooded arena. Mh. Where we see batman holding up a flare, leading a bunch of people to safety. I love that shot. So That shot for real dude, like, for real real. Mh. Like, when I saw that shot, I I said to myself, that is a modern version That is... Like, if you were to paint that, that could be a modern... Oh take on the extras, on on the exodus. Oh, yeah.

Like, literally bat batman plays such is such a mosaic character in that shot. Mh. I'm just like, oh, 0, man. I love it shut so much. I I'd like at Less when we saw that originally I said, I need this picture as a background somewhere because it's such a beautiful 100 percent. Like, that would that would make, like, the best computer wallpaper. Oh my gosh. It's it's it's...

And part of it is because the whole film has us noir fill to it, and and they... I really really want a black and white version of this just to see how it play out. Because I think it'll work. Yeah. They do such a great job of playing with lights and shadows. Throughout the entirety of the film. And and they play well with, like, the kind of lighting they do. That, yes It's a dark film but it it doesn't fill doctor. Does that make sense? It's like... Mh. What was that film we watched

last couple years ago that was... We were all like, gosh. It was so dark. We couldn't see a tag on things about the entirety of the thing. I think it was a, a Cooper film or something like that. It was a space filled that we watched. With with Frank's tomato. Oh, that was Dark star. Dark dark dark dark stars is not a dark movie. That wasn't but that wasn't the 1. But visually, it was dark. Like, I've had a hard time seeing it. Yeah.

Terms. But what Saying... What I'm saying visually at what the dark stars is not a dim movie visually. I think I remember what you I can't remember what movie it was. Right. There were there's there were been a few movies. There was... I wanna say the first Le had a couple moments where it was, like, that. There were a few scenes in Gui. Guy. Guy was 1 that kept coming out. That's that's the 1. Yeah. Yeah. The first guy. The second 1 we're called during the daytime,

and you could see the... You could see the Zipper. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about that because that's that's 1 of the reasons the monsters actually looked decent in the first movie because it was too dark for you to see how bad the costumes were, but it actually helped. Right. Mh. But, yeah, with with this movie, the focus is more on the lighting. And it really doesn't matter what the color... I mean, the color...

Makes... Color 100 percent. Mh. Yeah. But even if you but even if you remove the color, I think still just pure as a pure value, thing. It would be it would be enjoyable. Oh, you talking about giving it the the Zack snyder treatment and putting it in black and white? Yeah. Going. This this movie does play a lot like a film Noir movie. Mh. 1 of my biggest grip having seen it now. Is that this movie didn't need to be a batman move to work. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes. Yes. I wrote that down.

I wrote that down. There was... The entire time I was watching this movie, I did not feel like I was... It needed to be a batman movie. In fact, I felt like I would have enjoyed it more up until a certain point, I I need to... Caveat this. I can't talk I can't finish this thought in this section. But up until a certain point, I feel like I would have liked this movie more if it wasn't a bat. Movie. Like, if they would have made this purely a Jim Gordon movie, and I would have been 100 percent on

board with us. I don't I don't think batman was necessary for this movie. Right. Or take Batman's... Character and instead of making him a vast vigilant, just make him a guy who wants to drive around and beat up criminals like leave Bruce Wayne in his motorcycle outfit that he was in least the time. Just leave him in that, take away the need to dress up like a bat. And let him do the exact same thing. Let him go and beat up criminals, let him, you know, make him a private eye.

Right. That Jim Gordon works with, and I think you would have an excellent film door movie. It there were elements in that that it almost felt like they had to remind us from time to time. By the way, this is a batman movie. You know what movie? You know you know what what superhero movie this felt like, And I'm gonna say this, and I'm gonna watch both of you go. Yes. This felt like the movie version of the Netflix version of Dared devil. Yes. I can see that definitely. Yes.

Absolutely. Yeah. I I could I you could remove Batman and insert Dared neville, and this would work just... As well. Remove remove the villain and re remove a Falcon and put in king pin. U. Mh. Yeah. This But because it's a very street level Yeah. Type story. I think it's 1 the reasons why I love this. And and, again, we're not getting the spores with this, but this movie encapsulated a lot of what I've been looking for in a Batman story.

Mh. We... You go back and you look at all the Batman movies we've hat from Adam West to to all the ones from the nineties of 2 thousands. Seems like 2 thousands. There was a You know, they're that they they marketed as this, like, gritty realism, but even still there was a level that wasn't there. This right here grounded things, but it it focused just more on the detective side of who Batman is. Yeah. And again, why... The reason I love comics is

you have story... Different forms of storytelling, and the the characters are just the the vehicle for those storytelling types. And so the fact that this could be a a movie without Batman is awesome to me, But although love the fact that Batman is the the... The vehicle for this story itself. And I have a couple of things to speak to directly about that about why? Things I think they could have done differently to make Batman more of a necessary character.

Mh. To where it wouldn't work just as a generic P, Film Noir movie. I gotta get the spoilers to talk about that. I. I get that. So I'll say... I wanna say speaks to the cost also. This. The cost of this film was in my opinion fantastic. You know, we we talked about how I mentioned interested ago. This, like, this feels very grounded, far more grounded and than I think than the the Nolan movies were. But then they were also just... It was amazing

what they did. We talked earlier in the in the pre in the opening to show about Colin. And how he was completely different. Like, that it didn't make sense for him to look so not like him and it worked well. Like, it didn't look like it was a a prospect it was wearing. It was just a different person together. And cat Woman seemed the least cat woman. Of all the capital. No. Speaking of Ke one's costume. I was telling

Celeste. Like, I appreciate the fact that her costume is, She's is obviously very attractive, very sexy looking, but she's not s looking. She's just very su. And Right right. I appreciate that. They they kept... It's a Pg 13 film. Again, some people have issues with the fact that, you know, why did they go for r? They didn't have to? They didn't to. You know, Batman is a is kind of a youth

based property. You know, it's dark, but, I mean, it's just like, you're gonna cut out the majority of your audience if you go for a hard are Right. Yeah. Exactly. And so they they kinda kept that bounce throughout the entire film. I mean, it's a it's a dark. It's a violent film, but never crossed the the the Pg 13 rating. No. And that included the characters that they had.

It's Cat Woman has always been the the sale always been has has been portrayed for decades as the eleventh interest for batman. And but the way they did it, they didn't do it in a way that I'm just like, oh, you know? They weren't trying to be tit. Yeah. Exactly. And so I appreciate that they kept that balance there. The cost though. Sorry. What person? I was actually gonna talk about the cost. Oh. For. Oh, I was just gonna say the the her her outfit is 1 of the

things that I felt like was a... Oh, yeah. By the way, this is a batman. Because she spends most of her time with her mask off. It's just her and her cat suit. Yeah. And then every once in a while, she puts on the mask, and it's just this ski ask, but with the little... Sieve that stick out to make look like cat. Mh. And it it almost felt like a it almost felt like a nod or so than it cost you. Like like, you know, when you watch a movie, you have a special cameo by somebody that's

a nod to something else. Mh. It felt like that. It felt like Like, the movie trivia was, oh, yeah. This character was in spot, you know, if the the writer of the movie said well, I was inspired by this character by all the batman comics are red where Cat woman would show up. And so as a nod to cat woman, she'd put on a ski mask and that had little cat ears on it. That more like a an homage than it did. No. This is... Cat woman. This is supposed to be Cat

woman. Yeah. I I definitely have some thoughts on the on that cost, that might kind of speak to that a little bit, because I was looking at Batman's cost specifically. Mh. I'm a batman fan, but I'm a... I'm more a fan of batman for his villains than Batman himself. Mh. But anyway, I... And I I have all the Batman movies with the exception of Ben A like in this 1. And I've taken a really hard look at... Batman outfit.

And a lot of it was cut and stitch with leather, but with love leather, I can't talk tonight. And I think what the direction was that they were trying to go with cost in this 1, was they were trying to make it look like... Costumes that legitimate real people would have the capacity to make. Mh. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, in the in the Nolan moved in the nolan verse, you know, batman was ordering parts for his stuff from China,

and stuff like that. And they don't even talk about how Batman made his suits and all the previous movies. But, I mean, they were all latex and Yeah. Nipples and that was only Val forward. No it wasn't didn't have bad nipples. Fell K did either. It was 100 percent, doctor Ross. But anyway, No, you're right. You're right. With the bat Visa card. Belt Val K was the 1 that introduced the bat butt. Oh, was was there a bat butt on his suit with when he puts on the the prototype suit or whatever,

He... They they they do a shot of his butt, in the suit up sequence. Gotcha. At any rate. It's been a hot minute since I've watched batman forever. But at a at any rate. I think I think they were just trying to go with the whole Diy outfit aesthetic a little bit. Obviously, Batman suits gonna be a little bit better because he has access to better material and better Yeah. You know, stuff. But so I think they were trying to make it feel a little bit more gritty underground Diy.

Sure. Because even even even Batman's Bat wasn't as Uber as all the the Nolan verse or even or even the I don't even I don't know what we call the series with the 3 different Batman. The nineties is Batman. Yeah. Sure. We'll go through. Yeah. So reverse. I think they call it the burton verse. Right. Except except Jerry B did the last 2, but, you know, Yeah whatever. You know, I'll I'll say this to the cons with in that that world.

1 of the influences and it's undeniable, And I I think there was an area interview where we actually mentioned that is that he heavily pulled from Batman Year 1 in Batman year 2. And in Batman year 1, it's it's the first year of batman. And they said he's only been around for 2 years. And the great thing about Batman year 1 specifically was the fact that it was super ground level. Like, his cost wasn't perfect yet. And Cat woman also was that way. She was a ground level person. There's a lot of

things that they... And Won't get to spoiler a little bit, but it's a lot of aspects about the cat 1 character in this film that comes directly from your 1. And it's it's just like what you're saying. It's this like, they're figuring it out. They're putting stuff together and and try to figure out what works and what doesn't work as vigilant and Villa. Yes. So... And I think that's what makes this movie great for me and fitting in with that Noir field is that there's texture

to it. It's not the... The the slick latex that Val has. It's, you know, there's a there's a greatness. There's there's knicks and and cuts and stitches in his helmet the entire time. And maybe maybe that's what's contributing to this whole idea of me saying, you could just as easily make this a... A regular film Nor Pi movie as you could a batman movie. Maybe part of it is because the aesthetic is not overly comic book, Mh. It's very, very grounded in realism.

Mh. You know, batman's mask. You you see the stitches where he put it together. It's not this hard carbon fiber. Bat colored, you know, that thing. Of like you said, Cat Woman's outfit is is it's not designed to make her look like a cat. It makes you look like a a cat burglar, Mh. She just happened to have cats around. His his bat is just a soup up car. It's not a... A boy howdy with a car. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was a great car. Don't get me old. But, like, if I saw that driving down

the road. I wouldn't think, Oh, there goes the Bat like you would with, like Tim Burton met not same or just the effect. It's it would just be something. Yeah. You and me are riding the same wavelengths to me. It I was just gonna say, it would be some more closer to the effect of, like, oh, man. That's a dope vehicle. Yeah. Exactly. You think it would it would be going to a car show or something. Right. Yeah. So... Can we get the spoilers? At least. I've got so much more I wanna say,

but I can't give it away. I'm sure you do. I got spoiler free stuff yet. Free. Actually, this is my this is my final spoiler free the thing. Is that this movie was over long, But 100 percent. There was a lot... There were there was plenty. They could've have cut out of this movie, and it would have made it a better movie. There was a lot of long drawn out shots that could have been reduced that didn't need to be as long. For instance, can't talk about that.

You see. But thriller, but there were they're, like, literally, When I was when when we were... When I watched this movie, it was literally... I was like, okay. So it's about to end now, and then I looked at the status of it, and it was only at an hour and 40. Minutes in. I'm like, oh, no. I've got an entire half of a movie left. And then I watched some. I'm like, okay. It seems like it's it's wrapping up now. Nope. Still had another hour left. Okay. It's wrapping up now. Nope. Still got

another 30 minutes left. It I'm like, this movie literally felt like it ended 5 times. It's like they were trying to end this movie in every movie that it was... Don't know if I wanna say inspired by or ripping off, but III will say this to give a little peek behind the curtain as as... As John says sometimes, when I watch this movie for the show. This is the first movie in my entire time on the bottom shelf. Where I actually had to pause it and pick it up the next day.

Like... Because because I wanted to watch it enough to where I could pay attention to it. But it was getting late, and I was falling asleep. It's a 3 hour movie. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a long movie. I'm not gonna debate that. This movie is not lord of the rings. It it I it can't justify a lot or time that long. I don't know about that. I think a, for the difference that it is as a No movie. And also I didn't find problem with the pacing. Like, like, like, yes. There are moments where the Story

arc was coming to a low. Like, it was like, okay. We're wrap it up, but then it rent back up, but to me that went rent back up. It re engaged me really well. I didn't want it. Dude. It it like, it felt like it was wrapping up. It felt good and it's just like, okay. We're gonna do it again. It sort of, like, it's sort like, when you're running a fun run, you, like, A5K or something thing and then then they're just like, nope. You guys gotta go a little bit longer and

I did. I was... I did think the Well, that's spoilers. Right. There there was 1 point. I'll I'll say, oh, there was 1 point in the movie where I did feel like, okay. You've major point. Come on. But let's wrap this up, Let Batman do his thing and let's just keep going. This is honestly over with now. When it when it gets like this... More often than not. It's just whoever was writing the movie

couldn't edit themselves. They had a lot of ideas they wanted to cram in, and that's not to say that any of these ideas were bad ideas, but they had so many ideas that they wanted to cram in, that it caused the movie to blow out a little bit. And honestly, I think if they could've have they could have taken half the ideas they crammed into this movie and fleshed out the remaining ideas, and it would have been great. And they would have had enough ideas to make a second movie

that would have been great. If they would've have flushed out the ideas they take... They took they would have taken out of it. So... Do you think if they made this a 3 part mini series? Like, 3 hour long parts, it would feel better. That could be digestible? Maybe. I mean... See that. It's because there is a lot of story in it. And usually, if there's a lot of story in 1 movie, it would do better to stretch it out, so you could spend more time with... Each story.

Instead of trying to jam it all in 1 movie. Yeah. I mean, but but by the time they were starting to resolve narrative threads. If... To to be honest, because there was so much going on in this movie that by the time they started resolving narrative threads, it literally felt like, they were checking off a checklist. It's like, okay. We resolved this problem. We resolved this 1. Okay. Now we gotta... But they were intentional about. It it... But it

it felt intentional. Like, they did it in such a way that it didn't kill the pacing. But, like, literally, it it... There was there was too much going on. So here here's my pushback. I don't think they could have... I agree it's long. And there are certain portions I'm like, okay. You could cut here and you could picked up with a sequel movie, make it 2 hour and a half minute films. The problem is this, when this movie came out.

We are on the back end, of, the debacle of the Justice League movies. We are on the back end of the the death of the Dc as a whole. People are are screaming and cram and claiming, like, we want the snyder cut. Right? That's what's happening in the world. They had 1 shot to make a movie that goes, this is what this world is. And people like it. I don't think you could cut this movie at a halfway marker and gotten a sequel. I don't think that there would have been a... It would have...

Satisfied. They would have to do a a plethora of of things to make that happen Don't think it would it worked out. I think this was, like, we got 1 shot Here it is. Do you like it. And clearly, people did. I mean, it it made book boo of monies. All the monies. I mean, I can only... Maybe... Look, her. Hold on. Let me let let me back up because and I'll start talking before I finished what I wanted just... Thinking about what I wanted to say. I don't...

That's fine to say that, but in the same sense, I can only judge the movie based off the movie, that's being presented to me. I can take into the account of the time period that it was made in in in certain instances for instance, Like, if we're... Well, like, when we talk about the first Le recon movie, and I and I have my rant in it that it's a

product of its time. You couldn't, you know, but as as far as what's going on with the production company during that time period, I don't think that's a fair thing to really bring in when you're... When your... Cri a movie, because, yeah, that may be the reason why they made certain decisions why they did, Mh. But in the same sense, I can only judge the movie that's being put in front of me. And so... Yeah. That may be may have been their reasoning, but it's gonna have an effect on the

viewer watching the movie. Mh. Regardless. And for my perspective, I was ready for this movie to be done a couple times. Like... By the time, I was done with the movie. I just felt tired. Like, a emotion... Like, emotionally and physically. I was just tired. You know, I'm sydney here thinking about because John, you mentioned to earlier Lord of the rings. Mh. And I've got I've got the extended additions of both.

Guide you too. I I thoroughly enjoy sitting down and watching but, I will, I will sit down start fellowship with the ring and go all the way to Mori. I'll I'll alberta a day watching all 3 back to back. Then But I'm trying to think of why I'm willing to do that. And I think at least in part, it is because I saw the theatrical. Release. Mh. And knew there was more and wanted to see what was missing behind it.

Sugar? If if if I'm if I'm understanding you right, then, Bam, what you're suggesting is that that maybe they should have done the cut and then had a extended cut. Yeah. I think that might have that might have done it. So that you have a version for casual movie hours, who, you know, are just... They're just going to see the next Batman film.

But then you've got the director's cut that for the real fans of the field that 1 us kinda sink their teeth into it because I'm I'm I'm reflecting back and thinking back on the movie and knowing that it is a long movie. Now when I watched it for the for the show, I started too late at night. That was my own decision. But knowing it's a long movie if I wanna watch it. I sit down prepared to see it in its entirety. But I do that with Lord of the rings too. I sit down knowing

this is gonna be an investment time. Right. You know, if I want to enjoy this for... It's the full experience and need to plan to not have interruptions and things. So Baby... Yeah, maybe this would benefit from having a theatrical cut just to say here's the movie and then have a director's cut and the director's cut b, what we watched. I think I can speak... I think I can... This that, you know, this this episode

is gonna go down in history. We're at 46 minutes and we haven't even gotten past non spoilers. But I think I think that... It's I I think that I can answer your question as far as what... What... What's the difference between sitting down to watch the extended cuts of Lord of the rings in this? And ultimately is that Lord of the rings isn't nonstop, dark or nonstop gritty or whatever. Yeah. There there are moments of bright and lever Levi, and you go to R, and you go to... You

do you see what I'm saying? Like, yeah. We're normally normally you get moments like that in the Bruce Wayne scenes because he has to pretend to be a playboy, but the no Bruce Wayne scenes in this movie. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say because it's early in his career, he hasn't adopted a persona for Bruce Wayne. So even when he's Bruce Wayne, he's batman. All the time. So there isn't a a

break. I'll tell you what... As I... Being as I broke Taboo, let me do this and we can continue this conversation. Ladies gentlemen, the sw section. I just felt the tension and my shoulders relax. Alright. Let's get into this. I'm ready. No Bruce Wayne scenes in this movie. And well, let me rephrase that. There are a couple, when when it's just between him and Alfred, which again, Andy Ce. Wow. Yes. But Even in those bruce Wayne scenes, he... That's not my Bruce Wayne.

Yeah. Well, I I understand why they played that the way they did though because this is supposed to be Batman in his early years. This is Batman who... Doesn't really care about the Wayne Fortune doesn't really care about the Wayne name. All he cares about is as it has been... Said over and over and over and over and over again, this movie. All he cares about is vengeance. Vengeance vengeance. To be fair. Couldn't you say that that's how batman begins, started out too,

though? No. Because he still had his Bruce Wayne persona because that got him into parties where he could get information. This batman isn't. Not Not. I'm I'm I'm I'm talking about how Batman begins began, because he was originally like, I'm gonna go kill it wasn't Falcon. It was the other Joe chill. No. No the no. The other batman, Mafia a guy, he met him down in Hell's kitchen in the restaurant. Oh 0, Be. Yeah. Bo. Mar. Brody. That was it. Yeah.

Yeah. Because they got... There's 2 different Mafia guys, And I always get them mixed up. There's Falcon and Mar. Phone, and Yeah. And macaroni. At jeez. But I... Like I said, IIII could see that though, because he he's still focused on his his ambition. And he hasn't quite figured out how to use Bruce Wade as a tool for that mission, even the scene John that you're referencing, he he hasn't the Batman, He's Bruce wayne with a with a pistol. That's all he is. He goes off the

comes back man. It comes back. And and and in that movie, in that movie verse, He comes back with focus and intention, and he knows how he can use the Bruce Wayne persona Mh to achieve his mission. In this version of Batman, He's not focused. He's brand new. It, you know, the way Robert Patton played and he looks like he could potentially be, like fresh out of college age. Right. Like, this is a mid twenties bruce swing. He hasn't developed the Bruce wayne persona hasn't learned how to

use it to his advantage. All he cares about is mission. That's why, Alfred talks about there's a board meeting that you weren't present for. You know, you need to start showing up to these things. I get it. I get it. Oh, I don't know. I'd... It's just... I have so many mixed thoughts about this movie. Like the reason... Go ahead. There's like, there's things that I liked about this movie and there's things no 1 back. I guess, you

could say that about any. There's things I liked there's things I didn't like. But this... And I I kind of alluded to this in the spoiler free section, but this is not my bat. This is not the batman movie I I come to. This didn't feel like it needed to be a batman movie for the most part until they... Until they blew out the flood walls around the city. Once they did that, then I was like, okay. Now this feels like a batman movie because you got your flooding in an entire city, which is

Okay. That needs a superhero. Everybody's trapped inside stadium, which is which is going to be just... Destroyed by the minions of the riddle. Okay. I understand why that needs a superhero. You know, it was at that point where I was like, okay. This is why Batman... This this feels like Batman's necessary. But, I mean, you could have really prior... I actually think I have a solution for

that, though. I think I know... What they could have done that would have made this cemented as a batman movie and not just a film nor movie with the guy that dresses up for the costume you. 1 of the things that 1 of the premises that they kind of hinted at promised at the beginning of the movie, but never actually delivered all in. Do you remember the seed where he's he's giving his opening monologue, and there's AAA thug who rob a convenience store. And he runs out and he looks into

the the shadow of the tunnel. Mh. And he's a and and and and bat it's talking about how they don't know if I'm there or not. Because I could be everywhere. Right. And there's this attitude of Batman could literally be behind every quarter I think if they dropped the on yoga fresh. I don't know what I'm doing yet. It just went into... No. This is a batman who has established. Himself and played that more. Like, take out

the... Don't take out the seed, but rework the seed where he goes to visit the penguin by knocking on the front door of a night nightclub in his bats suit. Have him sneak in, it just appear in Pig woods office. When when he shows up to fight those skull painted guys at the very beginning of the movie. Instead of him just slowly walking in like, have him baked the lights go out and do the the monster thing where guys just vanish into the shadows. Like, play up the

Batman is an urban legend thing. I I am, I I gotta finish my thought. Alright. Because because then, He's this urban legend he's this myth, and his intention is to strike fear. But he doesn't care about inspiring. Hope, all he cares about is striking fear. He has his entire interaction with Sully kyle. He has his whole thing, you know, his his history ripped apart by the Rid. You have the moment where the the flood waters came in, and batman stops worrying about stealth and being a monster

the night. Then he becomes a symbol of hope. He cracks that flare out that that very senior talking about where he cracks the flare, holds it open. It leads people into safety. And then he's standing in daylight, putting people into stretchers, and then at the end of the movie. Instead of having him just riding off on a motorcycle, half him in his back cave working on a new suit. In all the new suit, you have the bat symbol with the yellow oval behind.

Can I throw out as even simpler suggestion on how to fix this movie? It might be simpler, but III love the idea of Hipaa. It'll it'll be simpler. Okay. And you'll like it better. Okay. Take out batman, put in the shadow. That would work, but then it wouldn't be a batman movie. I'm trying to make it a batman movie. I'm trying to make it a better movie. No no. But see, have y'all read what's it called? Justice Lee new here? Nope. Yes. Have you seen those the animated movie?

Nope. Okay. In that movie, there's a... Seed where Superman is visiting batman of the bat cave, and Robin is there. And Robin like, oh, wow. You really know him. And Batman is like, don't you have homework today do It's a Robin one's runs off. And Batman's costume is noticeably different. And Superman makes the point says, what's with you? You've got a kid side kick? You've got a do look, What what's the deal? And he says, I just realized that I want to scare criminals, not children.

Because earlier in the story, there's a situation where Batman's is trying to rescue a child from a cult. And the child is just a scared of him. As he is of the bad guys and have kidnapped lap him, and it sits with, and it bothers of that children are scared him, so he changes his costume to be less scary and more more of the vein of superman, more of a symbol of hope type thing. Takes on Robin as a side kick, and I think that is a theme they could've have explored this film. I'm glad

I didn't. Oh, whatever. But bro, consider your audience, my dude. That is not a John movie and you know it. I know, but I still like that idea because I don't like a batman with a Robin, dude. I do not like that A Robin. Don't don't have Robin then, but but have have a story that shows him transitioning from the dark night of avenger. Don't to the symbol of hope for Got. You can even work in, like, don't introduce the bat signal until the very end, because it becomes a symbol of hope. It

is a symbol now. That... That's an entire theme they could have explored How old damn when you realized that you were addicted to hope. 3, maybe. Hello. What was that first sith? There's the superman spider man? Worse things of Too, man. I I always just... You you literally had said hope at least 5 times in your response. The simple is for my planet beads hope. I don't know. For me, different audiences, I guess, I don't know. Like, for for me, I prefer the dark and

gritty, I do. I just don't prefer my dark and gritty for 3 hours straight without any break out of levi or sense of anything, but dark and grit. You know I know? So... Yeah. I get that. There it again. I think that that's 1 of those things where... Instead of sending Selena Kyle into the club as a as a... What's the for plate. It's not a play. Here plant. It is a plant Okay. I thought those was are work. Instead of city

Kyle there. The... That would have been a useful place for Bruce Wade, playboy persona to come in. And then you can have him like laugh at a making jokes and getting information as he talks. And that would... But see even that, it's this... Underground club where people are there that aren't supposed to be there, and it... You know... I don't know. I I like, you could've been joe matches if you did

that, though. It's That's true. But see even then, Joe Matches is you could play it in a comic way. He could've he could've have been like, Hey, you know, Joe Ba he out. Anyone get wanna do a game of dice. It it could have had about an ability to bring in that levi. But instead because it's Sal Kyle and S Kyle has this whole issue with her dad and her ball, it made it it kept it of the dark. So to speak. Even been kinda quiet, Dallas. Don't you got anything? This was your movie. My

dude? I mean, you guys have been talking about. I've there was no place for me to jump in. It's like Playing Hops with with the the flash year. I mean, Bam was too busy trying to fix a movie that he liked, which was just confusing me. I Well, the hot take. I fell asleep during the lord of the rings. I don't like those movies. I think they're boring. You heard feeling down. And I can handle this being a longer movie than I can the Lord of the rings.

The only time I'm I'm really up for watching little rings is when my wife is feel like, hey, We watch Little rings. Yeah. Sure. I'll watch it with my wife, because they're boring to me. They're slow. And to quote, quote, my friend Paul Jay Powers, it's slow and boring. This, though, the action keeps going, things keep moving in again. Let me ask... Alright. I know you've fred no man's land. But how much batman have

you actually read john and Branson? I I don't know you're talking about with no man's land. So... You've you've mentioned... Oh, you've mentioned not no amazon. You've you've read the... Or you know about the... You've the... Oh, gosh. What is it god? Nightfall? Nightfall. He knows what Nightfall. Not no. I have... I have all 3 nightfall. Right. I've read the novel normalization of of a, no man's land. I've not read the comics. Right. So besides that, John, and, Brian, how

much Batman have you guys? How much of red? How much how many comics have I read or how much of the narrative am I... Do I know? I feel like red would be a better way of of consuming it, but narrative works too. I know I know quite a bit about the narrative. Mh. As far as what I've actually read, it's pretty much limited to the nightfall series, my cousin has a lot of golden age and silver age stuff, and I've poked through that quite a bit. Mh. Have you read you or long Halloween by intense?

I was just about to get there. As far as specific series though. Like, if you're if you're gonna talk about multi book arcs. Mh. Then you're looking pretty much at the at nightfall because I... Don't like the majority of the superheroes on Dc, so I stay away from crossover stuff or justice league. Sure. I I've read nightfall. I've read ear 1. I've read Long Halloween. I've read... Now when you say nightfall, are you talking about all 3 arc, of nightfall fall or

just. Okay. Yes. Batman breaking John Paul Valley is Batman and then Bruce Wayne coming back. Because back. Mh. I've read that whole thing. Oh, I've read I've read second chances was is with it's Jason Todd became Robin, a red, a lily place dying, which is win tim Drake. Became Robin. Like I said a red, Long Halloween and a red you're 1, Red Robin year 1. What was the 1 that happened right before the long Halloween. Was that your 1? No. You're 1 separate. It's the...

Well, I mean, you could. I mean, it is it is there, but you're thinking darker victory probably. I've read dark victory. Or, dark comes after, long halloween. Okay. Then it comes after. I I knew there was 1 besides long Halloween. I've read dark victory. When new 52 came out, I followed the series there for a little bit. Mh. I read the court of valves. A beautiful series. I I enjoyed that 1. That was 1 of the 2 things... Well actually, there's was a lot about the do 52.

So, yeah, I've I've I've read quite a bit of that bad colleagues. Right. So here's deal. The the long Halloween dark victory. Year 1. Those are those are... How do I put those? How do I put this? I feel like you guys are viewing this through the lens of the stereotype of superhero movies and what the Stereotype what Batman is.

Which is often looked at the lens of A and threes and all those type of things, whereas when I viewed this film, I'm viewing it through the lens of the long Halloween, year 1, where it's it's not that goes in and gets all bash and, you know, beats up, you know, does the superhero thing. He has been a ground level hero for decades. But the ground hero story Don't get us, don't make movies. Whereas this was the ground hero that batman has always been, but he's not

been put out. So I feel like that's part of the the disconnect that maybe you're having or like, oh. He here's kind with superior until the very end. No. Because he's not necessarily a superhero. He's a vigilant... That that that was that was the point I was trying to make earlier was if you're gonna have him become the superhero at the end. To do it on purpose. I think that you don't. The whole point at the front end of it was Murray opening words was I am the shadows. He

was a myth, the legend. People were scared because in the first 2 years, in the first couple years of the Batman lore. He is the shadow. He is the the thing in the dark, and people didn't know where he would come out of, which is why there was fear all the time. But at the end, he goes published shadow, he becomes the light leading people out of darkness. Okay. I I get that. And and that was the purpose I thought they were going with, and I was excited because I would

love to see that. Mh. But then he casually waltz us into the middle of a gang fight, and they're not scared of. They think he's funny. When he goes to confront Oswald cobb pot, he knocks on the front door of the club. Mh. He doesn't sneak in. He knocks on the front door the club when he tries to solve the riddle question before the bulb, they take him to a police station. And and how he is laying unconscious in that police station and a room pool of cops that hate him and his mask is still

on, makes 0 sense to me. Mh. And then, see by the it... So by the end of the movie, like, for for a Batman who has built this persona of but here you're so afraid they'll see me in the shadows, there's spent a lot of time not sneaking around. Right. But he he does. Again, this is still the new... He's still becoming the batman. There's So if you go back go back to year 1, he still freaking the stuff out. And he still is

unsure of himself. He hasn't built everything. There's only pockets that know. There's rumors. So that the the the the group of thugs, they're young kids who are just, you know, they're out kicks. And They see him, And, you know, the 1 kid though, he sees the bat symbol, and there's fear. Like, he's gripped by the fear of the symbol itself in the sky. He goes, this isn't right. And then that might comes in kicks butt. So again, we're still at the sc level with him

becoming who he's supposed to be. Jump forward to the whole thing about, you brought the whole thing with him punching into the the the the go after the penguin in the lair. Again, that was that young batman, what you said front end. Like, he doesn't know who he is yet. He hasn't figured our thing out, but he's learning about fear and

intimidation at the same time. So I guess what I guess what I'm saying is if if you're gonna play the young angle and he's just starting out, then I don't think that he... Would have had enough time to make himself enough of an urban legend that people would be afraid of seeing him in the shadows. Like I I guess that's what it is is the 2 ideas are conflicting. Either he's been around long enough that people are afraid of him, or he's so brand new that legend of the batman hasn't become

a thing yet. But it seems like they tried to do both in the movie, and it feels like the 2 ideas were fighting each jesse see. I don't think so. Again, he's been around for 2 years doing this. I mean, in 2... 2 years span. There's time for things to reach out and remember, Got massive. Got is not S, Louisiana. It's not spokane. It it is it is smoke. Sp spokane. It is literally New York City. Brought into the space. And is so compact. And, again, he's in the darkness. He's in

the... He's at at nighttime and he can't be... And he says that I can't be everywhere. And so he has to choose where he does go. Yeah. And so the legends be beginning to grow there, but he's not there. Now. The the scene with the cops. That scene is explained to me for me because of the fact that half the cut force and you see this in the comics, they're like, we're with Gordon. This is a good

guy. We're not gonna check with them. But then there's the other half that's like, we're on top Cohen payroll. Right. And then you had those like, and we don't see him minute it, but Bullock, Mh who... He's just a good cop, but he does... He's, like, he's like, visualize his period. U. And so And so III see that as working at myself personally. Maybe it's just a maybe it's just a difference in storytelling style. You but like it to be black and white. You want to be, like, bam. Here... He's a

he's a sludge. But now he is hope. And and John's just like, he's Gun Gritty superhero who's beating up everybody, and I'm trying to go like, but he's a ground level dude who's figuring life out still. Yeah. I guess. I I guess III guess that makes sense. I just... I don't know. Like I said, I I thought it was a missed opportunity to... Sure. To... I like your idea. I like the idea of him working those suit and becoming... It's the 1 with the the yellow on it. I I love that idea legitimately.

That would require the Robin though in my opinion, the raw figure. I don't want or robin. That's okay. We do. Okay. So I... I was so... I was so terrified that they were gonna make the mayor's kid become Robin. No I was that was actually a bee. That was, like, so many he beeps. That way I wouldn't be and then injustice as to the robin character as a whole. There's no there's no robin that that could fit in at all. Dick Grayson when it fit in, Drake when it fit in,

Todd wouldn't work in. Carrie would not work in. I mean, none of it works Yeah. Certainly not Damien. So, that would be a uttered justice. So hot take, and, and may get the steak for Balance for this. I actually like Robin as a character, better than Batman. I can see you that I at. That checks for you. I mean, Actually, I I have a collection of... All of the issues, now when you say Robin or do you mean night wing? He probably Robin. Robin, like specifically Robin.

Because each Robin has his own flare, his own story that I that I found interesting. Yeah. I find it he's he's a legacy character without being a legacy character. Mh. Like, every every character. Becomes Robin, and that's their introduction into the superhero world, and then they eventually grow out of the role and become their own person, but Robin is the way they step in. And that it is an idea if I

find interesting. The only person that stopped being Robin, that I hated that they stopped me Robin because it never really became anything else was Tim drake. Like, yeah. He became. Drake became Red Robin, which is just... It's still Robin. I think that that was a a decision made because they realized we can't age ages people too much. Yeah. I mean, Todd is a, I mean, a psycho path, but You know he died. He came back. He's got some Ptsd going on. Yeah. He doesn't

let clowns anymore. And so he's got very. You know, he... He is the... And... But that same time, like, what I love about the different Robins though is that they all are different... Aspects of who Batman is. Yes. It Drake is the is the detective. Todd is the the... What do you call it? He is the the the the gruesome, the hard edge, the I'm here to just hit everyone in the face. Whereas Dick is the, I care about people.

Aspect of Who bruce is, Damian, though, he's the he's the the Wow card because we're not really sure. He's still growing into his personality. He's this heart ninja who was raised by his his grandmother... Ours grandfather to to hate the world, but now he's learning to accept this new role as, as a wan in trying to figure out what that means for him. And III really find his character be fascinating altogether Tim Drake is my a favorite Robin because wood, he figures out who batman is. Hey,

guys. Yeah. Can we talk about the movie we actually watched instead of just Alright. Alright. We'll we'll we'll we'll save that conversation for a comm talk. We'll have a special Robin edition Comm talk. I do wanna to say though, go back to the idea of batman the detective. When I realized that he was wearing, recording lenses,

Mh. And him being at the crime scene just looking around and taking everything in, and then he find out after the fact, he's doing that so he can go back and review the footage. And actually like investigate. Mh. I thought was next level genius. Oh, yeah. Like, when I when I first saw that theaters, I actually did, like, Oh, no way. Because I thought that was a bit... Because he he looked at it him I and he he's this stoic figure in the room

just kinda taken everything in. Mh. And then you're like, you know, what's what's the deal he's just staying there. And then you realize that he's deliberately looking at everything. So that he can't investigate in that he can look into it. Mh. And I thought that was a meat, modern take on the detective batman. Yeah. That you've got a little bit of that modern technology, but it's still

the old school detective work. Yeah. But at the same time, he's still z, like, he's the 1 that saw the the hatching of... The tool and he's, like, he's picking out small details as he goes. I was gonna say something and I completely lost my train I thought. It's calm. Okay. Never mind then. I have a thought. Oh, yeah. Certainly. It's coli. The this 1 thought that came to me when I was watching this movie, after they laid everything out, they whole they completely wholesale ripped off

the narrative from the telltale game. The first telltale game. So Haven't finished that 1 yet. I've haven't enjoyed it. I haven't finished it. But It's same story. All they did was add Riddle, Yeah. Adding in the the Falcon connection there. You're right. I forgot about that. Exact... There's a lot it's the exact same story. There's a lot of stuff that they're pulling. I mean, the whole thing with selena and in the girl, Annie, which was... Her name was Angel in the comic. It's the same thing.

The connection was for this? Well, in year 1, it was... Yeah, you meet Selena. And she has a there's a young girl that she works with name, named Angel. And there's a... This this kind of, like, care, in the comics that plays out more of a of a big sister type situation caring for, and she ends up getting hurt, in that also. And then there's also the connection with falcon ko, which you see play out in year 1. At

you're 1. I'm sorry. And the long Halloween where she actually goes off to to investigate that in a separate book called something Rome. I forgot what was called. Wait. Now doesn't Falcon become the black mask though. It's sun incident it? It was supposed to be falcon. I thought. I'm gonna Google it because I remember. The black we asked is 1 of the Italian families, but I thought it was the son of 1 of the monsters.

Me watching the 2 the 2 actual comic book nerds, just go to town on their computers after I just dropped out on. They're, like, It's a Roman Cia. Robert Cia. So it's not any of that. Mh. Famous chrome. At least tested to the new 52. So Alt you go, yep, Row sail that's how he across board. Mh. Ion was it... That that was right now now I'm remembering. Mh. So I pulled that back. I was like, I mean, because again, the think about... What... This is part of the reason why I

love this so much is this wasn't. He's finding the penguin. It's not well, yes. He's fighting the brother, but it's not it's not the riddle yet. He's not fighting the joker. He's fighting Falcon. He's you know, on the back end of dealing with Moron, This is a street level detective he's dealing with thugs and and the mob and stuff like that. I like this version this version of the penguin as the organized criminal who runs the the night club. That's my favorite

version of the penguin. I'll tell you this much. I enjoy this penguin so much more than Danny Da penguin. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's not hard. That... And that's not a dig against Danny Devi. He acted his butt off. He he he took what he was handed and he did with the best with what he could. Yeah. That's speaking of which did you know that he actually ate that fish? Raw. Like did That that that was wisely. That was 100 percent. Really did. Wow.

Kudos to him for being so dedicated. I... Yeah. It... For for the listeners at home, the look on bam face right now. 100 percent priceless. Yeah. The the whole thing with him being so penguin like. That was purely Burton design in that whole that whole movie. And again, it's... The the early nineties movies as much as I love them for nostalgia reasons. They got away so much from the source Material became 2 they became characters of themselves and... Became too

comic book. Yeah. But even not but even not really like the comic books themselves. You know, 1 of the reasons why I love Jack Nicholson as the joker is not just because he is my first joker. But because he was the last person to play the joker that was legitimately sadistic and an actual mobs or crime boss. Yes. Ledger was cute. Ledger was a cool character, but with flat the I'm gonna get flat for this. The only reason people think he was the greatest is because he died. I.

I disagree. He was a good character. He did a great job playing sadistic, but he was not a good... He was not the end all of the joker. What wasn't? What is the Joker title? He is the cloud prince of crime. The cloud prince of crime. Jack Nicholson joker was actually a criminal. Heath fled joker was a psycho path. He was an ana artist. Yeah. He was an ana. So if we wanna hold to the joker origins, then you've got to have some kind of a criminal element. He's gotta what like, the

the joker... The classic joker would torch mountain in and full of bunny just for the heck of it. Mh. Hang on. Let let let let's let's let's walk... Let's walk that back a little bit. Me not being as versed in the older comics the comics I've read that have had the joker in there. He has been a sadistic psycho path. Mh. So I'm not sure where the whole mafia bit comes from as far as the joker is concerned, admit. Like I said, well, not... I don't even need to feel

bad about this. There is so much batman out there that I can't. Yeah. But but the joker that I'm aware of from the comics has always been the heath ledger joker. I think that the heath blood joker was a... Or rather or rather a form of the heath leather. It was a form of the heath fled joker. He was Heath heath fled let basically took the joker that I'm familiar with and took it out to the nth degree, basically. So here... Here's where I... Where... How I

will place everything out. The heath ledger joker is a great character of the the sadistic side of who he was. There was always a level of him being organized criminal in, before things got weird in the mid nineties. They or say else. The comma code did some interesting things. Branson will proudly show the comma code tattoo on his left butt shake if you want. Ask him to. Because he loves it. But I I don't I don't love what it became. I love the idea behind it. The but that's

the thing. What it became. What it became, caused a the the stories to become... Well, they, like, the Adam West of of everything. Yeah. Adam West was. Yeah. Adam West is batman, the... What the people realizing out the entire undertone was, look, This is the common code. This is how things are. Type of thing. They're pulling up the Hilarious of it. And so because Comp that was the the view that the general audience had, they introduced more of that silliness into the comics

as time progressed. On the flip side of that, Burton comes out with the batman or with Batman, and we see get a return to the the mobs criminal joker that he was beforehand. Okay. Alright. And I guess that I guess I'm just not familiar with pre comic code joker. Yeah. And so and that's fine. And and so there was this back and forth between the 2 throughout the nineties and 2 thousands of the the sadistic and the the criminal element. He Ledger comes out and with his batman.

And again, or here's a joker. Again, not a bad joker. Hear me out. I'm not saying that don't come at me, but he's not the best joker because he's not as well rounded as as... I'm. Now. I want you I'm gonna say... Senator to the moon. Who? The, what's... Was the Walking Phoenix? No. What's his name. Oh, the the lead singer of 30 seconds to mars. What was that man's name? I can't remember. The guy that was walking joker in Joker.

Joaquin Phoenix was the Joker and Joker. He's talking about guy that was in Jared Lit. That's who it was suicide squad. Joaquin Phoenix Joker was actually pretty interesting, especially the way they played that with him being where you... We weren't sure if he was ever sane or not. Where that was all dream. But Jared Joker was absolute just dog water, and needs to be thrown away. I never saw it. The joker or or or Jared let. Yes. Okay. So Yeah. They're making a second joker, though. They are.

And it's gonna be in black and white. And, apparently it's gonna be a musical. It has my attention. I... Here you here's the thing. I like things. I like my villains to be un unchanged. And and and that's that's what drew me to batman to begin with. I like my I like my villains un unchanged. I like them being unpredictable. I like them be. I like, I like my evil to be evil. Please, and thank you.

I don't... And this is something that me and a lot of other Christian content creators will will often come to logger heads over It's just because I I believe if you're if you're gonna write evil, you shouldn't candy c evil. Evil should be rep when it's when it's looked upon. So, like, when when when... Like, there's a lot of people who object to some of the stuff that's like, in the movie, the ex assist. And they're like, oh, they should've toned that down. I'm like, why? If it's a demon,

they're not gonna wanna tear... They don't they're not gonna wanna tone it down. So, like, for me, when you got someone like, the joker who's from my perspective is a psycho path, yes, I want them to be sinister and a moral as possible. And I think my issue with the villain in this movie with the Riddle is it just wasn't my riddle. They shouldn't have called up the Riddle if they wanted Batman versus the Zodiac killer, they should have done that. And yeah. Yeah. And

I mean, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the character. It just wasn't the riddle. I felt that too. That was that kinda of played into the whole idea of they had to remind us every once in a while, this was a batman. And 1 of them was the regular, like the symbol of a question mark. They kept throwing it in there just to remind you, hey, This is the riddle by the way that were not for the question mark symbol, and the colleague of the Riddle. I wouldn't have recognized him as the red.

I would have liked like you said I would've have thought it would be like a just a generic serial killer, which the original batman, especially Golden age batman, pre Robin would have fought a generic serial killer. That's something that batman would have... That's a case that batman would have taken on. Oh, so... Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was cool. But I mean, our our... We all know about the the new Batman movie that's coming soon. Right? Batman, Noir. You Batman door. Yes.

You guys don't know about Batman Noir. This is news to me. Bro. You're in front of a computer type it in. I need your reaction to this. I'm not seeing it about Noir movie. I see the comic? Nope. There's a movie coming. I keep seeing things about it. There's was Batman 2 coming out. Was it Batman Noir Maybe it was Spider Man Noir. Now that I'm thinking about it. Spider spider Noir coming out. Spider a bit horse coming out. Yeah. My bad with

them. God. State for industrial lakes reflects my emotions. John's over you're playing with Matt Moses. Oh appreciate that. So... Yeah. Well, I think we've all landed in different places here with this movie. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I have been going out of my way to hide my actual opinion about this movie. III have stated my thoughts, but I don't think any I don't think either of you can really state

how I feel about this movie. I have my suspicions, but now that you've said that it's making be second guess every That's what I do. I'm... I I am a Dm. I am a Dm, 100 percent of the time. Until I play my hand, you will never know what game I'm playing. Indeed. So I'll put this out there before we we go until that aspect of what we actually think. Just the influences of this film. There were a lot of great great noir styled, cape styled movies at this movie call pulled

from. But for... Those of you who are like, hey, what should I read? You should read batman in your 1? You should read the long halloween, and you should read no man's land to understand some of the the major things are pulled for this movie. I would say, also, if you wanted... The costume influence, I think Crowley came from, Batman, the white knight, which was a kind of alternate future where the joker heals himself, and he's no longer the joker, and all of a sudden, he's... People like

him. He's a normal human being. He's running for air. And he helps organize, legit the vigilant entities and batman like, nope. I don't trust you, and it all goes to crap. But that does have latitude. I figured it would. I figured it would. And then, no man's land was a huge story arc that took place where, Got, all the bridges to Got were destroyed, and Got was literally... Portions were flooded, but it was an island.

And the government... The the country had to shut down the city, and it became a no man's land and the gangs begin to form factions which is really what basically was happening at the end of this movie, and I kind of hope. The second movie plays more with that. Actually read the novel mobilization and I didn't read the comics by I an organization that was really interesting. I think that would actually make a really neat video game. Mh. I think played a little bit with it with

Ark City. Yeah. Ark City. They played a little bit with it. Not much, but they they teased it. Well, go ahead and and bake it a full fledged they and or do that, but then make it to where you can influence how things turn out based on which factions you help and support? Okay. But my brain's running off. Your rocks steady instead of giving us this crappy Vr game that you're putting out there own quest, give us the game, Bright thick enough. You will make money.

Well, here's the thing. It's not Rock dead call. It's it's W Montreal. Everyday. Isn't it w? Mh. Rocks city dipped the stuff, though. Anymore? Rock their owned... Rock study is owned by Warner brothers. Oh, I see what you're saying now. I see what you're saying now. So that's the reason why they had to make, justice league kills... Not just league kills. Suicide squad kills the justice league. Which bombed and is already shutting down their servers. Not even out a year and people were

like, yep. We're sitting down. It was trash. It was trash. It was a money grab. They it paid 0 respect to the source material. Yeah. It they made people mad and Warner brothers was, like, what happened. But this isn't a video game podcast. It's a movie podcast. So let's get to our final... Let's get to our final ratings because we're flounder. We here at the bottom shelf review movies on a 4 tier rating system.

Starting with top shelf, this movie is fantastic, I must own it and everybody should watch it. Then we have the middle shelf, which is... It's okay. If it's on Tv, I might watch it or maybe I might buy a copy and watch it every couple years or so. Bottom shelf is, I didn't enjoy this movie. It might be okay for you, but I don't wanna watch it again. And then there's the dumpster fire, which is where we are going to go out of our way to

keep people from watching it. And as far as we are concerned, the movie has been erased from existence. So with that being said, I'm gonna go last because I'm the big question mark on this 1. But what's that a red alert pod? It wasn't, but I will pretend like it was. But Dallas. Yeah. So for me,

I'm putting this on the top shelf. It is 1 of my favorite batman films of all time, partially because it's so different from any other superhero movie that's coming out at the time and is coming out currently, and I love the Know fill things. And I love the text side of things. There is a personal project I've had in my head for years I've wanted to do and this kinda tapped into a little bit. So I'm digging

it. Cool. Well, bam, I will say that listening to you on this episode has been interesting to me because you came in hot and head before it, and then you began to argue with Dallas about this movie. In the meantime, I just sat back and watched. Well, part of that is because I wouldn't saw this in the theaters. And when I saw it in the theaters, I loved it. Watching it a second time with a more critical eye, there were some things that stood out that kinda of maybe scratch my head a little bit.

I think the movie is a net positive I think it has more going forward than has against it. I think that the issues I have with the movie I have because I was watching it with critical eye I was actually watching it too critique it. If I were to watch it again, and just watch it just for the fun of it. I think I would enjoy it. Oh, I can't give it a top shelf rating because I don't have a desire to go buy it. But I did enjoy the movie. I had a good time watching it.

I had a good... I had a good time thinking about ways I would have written the story slightly different. And I think that's that's that's neat that a that a movie could make you think about well, how how would I tell that story. So I'm gonna put this on a very high middle shelf. Not quite top shelf, but High enough that I would be a embarrassed to recommend to other people. No. There. Alright. Now I... Before I go into my review,

I am super curious. I wanna know what you guys think where you where you think I'm in a land? I'm I'm taking bets now. I'm gonna say you're on the top shelf. Got a middle shelf. Alright? He plot twist. He goes dumpster fire. While I'm I doing this. I hate you Dallas. I'll give you off the show. No. IIII can promise you, Dallas. I'm not gonna dumpster fire this movie. I came in this movie, and III did.

I pushed my biases aside, and I watched it with an open mind because know, if I'm gonna put 1 of my favorite movies forward, I would hope that somebody would do the same... Give me the same respect. Because I'm legitimately sharing something that's important to me. Sure. So I wanna do that too. So I went into it. And for me, it wasn't a batman movie. I think I've I I think I've stated that.

Mh. It didn't bring anything that I like about batman movies until the final act of the movie, but it brought other things that I enjoy about other movies. I saw a lot of other movies in this at at certain points. I felt like I was watching the movie 7. Yeah. At other points, I felt like I was watching the movie Zodiac. And if you haven't seen that movie I highly recommend it, everybody. Especially if you like this movie, Go see Zodiac. Oh, and if you're over

18, that movie rated our. So... Yes. It is. Let's see here. What else was there. I mean, there there there was a lot in here. It was over long but there was a cast of characters, and everybody who is in this movie acted their butt off. I honestly think I would have enjoyed this a lot more if this was a shadow movie over it being a batman movie. I think I think the setting would have made more sense.

As well as the the whole detective work, it would have made more sense to me, but I didn't hate this movie. There were times. I I legitimately found myself in enjoying what was going on on the on the screens. I feel like the car chase between the penguin and batman could have been taken out of this movie and it would have been a better movie that was probably the most boring car chase I've ever seen.

And the reason why I say so is because the rain effects that they had going during this blur the visuals for me, so bad that I felt like I was watching a fight scene in the transformers movies. You know what I mean? Yeah. So...

But with that being said, like I said I didn't hate it, and I'm gonna end up watching it again because I honestly believe that my wife will this movie more than I did because my wife super into Tv shows like Csi and criminal minds, and let's face it this kind of what this this movie is. So with that said, I'm gonna put it on the middle shelf. Alright. So bam 1 that 1. Yay. I win. Alright. So let's go ahead and move on to jeez. We're we're at an hour and a

half and we're still not on. Weak connections everybody. This is a weak connection Pastor Dallas. Via the the the microphone is yours. Welcome to the weak connections a portion of the podcast where we Take the film that we watch good bad or not. Yeah, we bring us something of value that is encouraging, inspiring to your soul. Points you to Jesus. So, real quick, show hands who has AAA weak connection. Right chicken his head. Josh. I I literally I literally watched this movie today.

I didn't have I And I watched it while I was at work. I mean, so that was a John's job that did not affect his productivity in any way whatsoever. Oh, no. It didn't. My my productivity was actually high today. So really? There you go. When you're good at your job, you can do things like that. I mean, that's fair. That's fair. Alright. So for me then, what talking about this film.

By the way, if you go to geek oceans dot com, we do have a devotion based off of this film that I did when it came out 2 years ago. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm actually talking about something different. He was talking about... The entire time he's, like, he's talking about how he's vengeance. He's vision. Everything like that. And there's this whole thing with Selena where she discovers at Falcon her dad, and she's angry about it, and she's raised to just, you know, awesome. And

he's like no Don't do that. You've suffered... You've paid too much for this already, But she's holding on his business. She's holding on to his anger. And it was driving her legitimately to homicide. To cross the line, and he said over and over don't do this, you'll become just like him, and it's a really interesting scene that takes place because he's just genuinely trying to protect her from cross light. To the point she's been a a cat criminal,

you know, our cat Burglar Right? She hasn't necessarily done anything terribly You know, she hasn't crossed that line it's a. She hasn't committed a mortal. Yeah. So he's trying to protect her from going too far. And But there's this bitterness. There's unforgiveness. There's this anger that is walled up inside of her. And now she's been pushed in the end, and she's ready to just to cross that line and do the very thing that the man she hates did did to her, basically.

And You know, the bible talks about is of Lord. And some people look at that and they're... They kinda scratch. Like, what does that mean that Is is Lord. That means that god's gonna take care of things. And really, for... There's a lot of people who have love her. They've been through some stupid stuff. And it's not right. It's inappropriate. The things that have happened to you. They shouldn't have happened.

And I can I can set stand here for and not place of all the guys here on the show, we're sorry that it happens? That's inappropriate. But if you hold on the bitterness. And you don't let go, you don't forgive. What takes place is not the person who offended you getting hurt. But you're allowing yourself to be victim optimized by them over and over and over again. That's what happens when we don't forgive when we don't let go. It doesn't let go and forgiving doesn't mean that you're

validating that person. You're not not saying that, okay. It's no big deal what they did to you. Letting go means you're no longer gonna allow yourself to be their victim. And honestly, again, they may never know. Your hard looks at them. Your your biting lip, that's not doing anything to them. It's just hurting you. And so What Batman doing in this thing. He's like, he's like, let me handle this appropriately. Let me bring justice now. We all know how that ended in very well.

But God's not batman. God's not superman. He's not a man at all. God is divine. And God has ultimate justice. And whether it's in this life or when they stand before the throne in judgment. God will bring righteous judgment. Somehow. And we had to put our trust in faith in that and let him bring the human let him take care of us. It's hard. It's sucks. It genuinely is a terrible process to walk through to let go of the pain. I I have lived the life where I've been

through some stupid stuff. And I've seen things. I wish I had never seen and people have hurt me in ways that I don't care to think about on a regular basis. But I've had to let go and I've had to forgive them. 1 of the hardest things Ever had do in my life was I had to genuinely call the person who hurt me in a very real way and tell them I forgive them. Like, I had to. Inside of me. I was like, I've got to let this go and I had to tell them I forgive you of what

you've done to me into my family. And that was hard. But once I did that, there was a release, there was a... There was something that took place in my spirit that I was no longer a slave to it anymore. I was now free to live my life the way that I needed to be. And so I'm not asking you guys to do anything that I'm I'm wouldn't do. And some of you, you've you've been through horrific things far worse than what I could ever imagine, I'm sure, but holding on to the bitterness.

Holding it onto to that pain. Like I said, that doesn't hurt them, it only hurts you. It is a chain that will weigh you down. And if you do not release it, it will taint every relationship going forward. It will be the... You will see life through the lens of that pain. You'll see life through the lens of that bitterness. And any anytime a person says anything that is even the a fragrance of what has been happened before, you will instantly respond away that is

too far. In a way that you're trying to protect yourself legitimately, but instead of protecting yourself, you're hurting yourself because you're keeping the opportunity for people to care about you from taking place. So that is my weak connection for you guys for, this show film, the batman. Hey, Babe. Hey man. You guys wanna add anything to it? You know, I was actually having a conversation with my bolt. About revenge. She was talking in her bible study about

that concept. And something they said in that bible study I thought was really profound. They said, God says Vi is my... Because justice is up to him. Mh. Sometimes justice is Jesus. Yeah. Sometimes the justice that he puts out on the center of the person who is wrong this is Jesus dying on the cross for their sense. Mh. And that's humbling because I love to talk about what Jesus died for my. Mh. But to think about that Jesus died for the sins of the person

who hurt me. Yeah. And that blood that covers my scent, covers that sent to. And if I'm gonna say God's praises about how he covered my sin, I need to recognize that he also covered that person as well. Yeah. Definitely. That... And that's a hard thing to realize that, you know, he he does that we. III remember years ago, it was I starting with on un Acquaintance, and we were talking about just the goodness of that.

The the god's gracious. You know, it's it's unbelievable that God would forgive us I mean, it is a is a miracle that God gives us. And I was talking with him, you know, the god's grace is so great that you know, the... We're all familiar with the funny Mustache man who couldn't speak German very well, but he led a whole nation. And he did atrocious evil to despicable with things that are unspeakable.

To this date though we has done anything near as bad, and it is terrifying to think the people analyze him and some duty analyze him today. But in those final moments when he was by himself bleeding out if if I'm not saying he did, but if he had a revelation of Christ in that moment, and he genuinely repent. Because God is faithful and true, he would have forgiven that man, and we would see him in heaven. And matt is at is

starting to think about. And, my friend, they kinda freaked out on me because they... And what Bowl down to was if Guy could forgive that man. And Guy could forgive the person that I've used them when they were younger. And they didn't want that. They couldn't handle idea of seeing that person in heaven with them. And that is the that is the shocking thing about it. About god's grace is that it's there. And he's okay with us struggling with that. But that's is where we had to God's grace

covered us, it will cover everyone. Awkward silence. Don't worry, John. I'll take care of that. Yep. He won't. He's lead in there. Oh, man. Alright. Well, I think we've covered everything, guys. Alright. Well that being said, let's let's go ahead and exploit our position and advertise for a brief moment. Come check me out at, playing games of strangers. That's all long I'm gonna say Dallas where can people find you. Geek devotion dot com where... Geek devotion dot com.

Yes. Where you can find devotion, articles, reviews, podcasts, including this podcast right here. And also, most recently, a free curriculum that you can download as a 6 week curriculum to go along with a Mario kart tournament. That you can do with your youth group and community. But wait, there's more. Like Listen soon. Yes. Tell us what you're doing. What am I doing I don't know. You you you y'all got anything you wanna... You don't got anything you wanna promote my dude?

Not at the moment. Though. Alright. Alright. Well, with that being said, thanks so much for listening. We certainly hope you've enjoyed this. Please engage with us on the discord in the face space and all the other socials that are just destroying the moral fabric of society. And goes. According geo. But that being said, thanks so much for listening. State devoted. Love. Copyright infringement. You