Opposites Attract with Ori Anavim & Doug Ladden

We're not just going audio , we're going video , and we're not just going with one founder , we're going with two co-founders . So it's going to be a bit of an adventure . We're all learning in real time together , so thanks for being here Again .

Welcome back to the show , where we feature the backstories behind some of the most compelling entrepreneurs in supply chain that are building companies , the ways that don't get a lot of attention Bootstrapped .

This week I'm excited to get to introduce two folks who are in the last mile space and the technology space , which is something I've been fascinated with for over a decade . I'd like to introduce Doug and Ori , the co-founders of Deliverite and Grasshopper . Welcome to the show , gentlemen . Good to be here . Thank you , nate . Doug , let's start with you .

Can you take me back to the very beginnings of what was the idea that , or the event that happened that led you to wanting to even get into this space in the first place ?

We were really trying to figure out what websites we're going to do in order to handle deliveries of big and bulky products , because these websites were gaining traction with consumers to figure out how to sell products online . If you're trying to sell exercise equipment or furniture , you can't call FedEx and UPS to deliver that product for you .

They won't handle products that are over a certain size or a certain weight . They won't handle things that require two people to deliver them . They won't go into your home or your apartment to set it up . We said someone's got to build a solution for all of these e-commerce sites and brick and mortar stores that wanted to sell online .

We said what do we know and what can we do that would help to solve this problem ? That set off a whole chain of conversations and resulted in us saying well , all of the big and bulky delivery companies that already exist today . They're already doing the job of delivering furniture , delivering exercise equipment , appliances to people's homes .

They don't really have much technology . When you think about trying to work with e-commerce sites , how do you say to an e-commerce site I'm the best delivery company in Kansas City and I need you to send me a fax every day with the deliveries you want me to make . That's not a technology solution for an e-commerce account .

Also , if you only handle Kansas City , the e-commerce site is going to say , well , hey , buddy , I need you to handle a lot more than just Kansas City for me . There's a whole country I'm selling to .

We started out thinking we have to build a technology solution for these delivery companies and then we'll connect a whole bunch of these delivery companies that are on . Our technology will connect them to all the websites that are selling these big products . Then we realized , well , in order to build the technology , we actually have to start a delivery company .

We actually ran some delivery terminals for a couple of years and Ori and I spent five years working in a warehouse and working with developers and operations people putting together the technology platform that we call Grasshopper . Today there's a lot that's happened , but that's what we were thinking at the beginning .

We needed a better solution for big and bulky products .

Where did that sense of curiosity or humility even come from that ? Before we can build something , we have to learn the industry .

We already had members on our team that say , okay , we clearly need to start testing in a real life environment and not inside a four-world room with a couple of developers they're writing some code and assuming the guy will figure it out .

I think the fact that we had this insight into this issues of bridging between the real world driver , the real world warehouse guy and the super techie developer or engineer that like to build those great mobile apps and have someone in the middle that we're not doing a Duolingo or translating the operational skills to a development features I think that gave us a

good insight . Having said that , it still was very hard . We were fortunate that we had one degree of separation from real life . We did not have to find a customer that have a driver that can give us feedback . This is a driver .

I can't even tell you how many times I spend time with drivers and warehouse guys really early in the morning In hours that a typical developer never wakes up to . Actually testing the loading feature of a trailer or unloading of a whole box truck , all those things . That's something .

Only if you have really boots on the ground you can really iterate a lot faster than just walking through a design partner or typical startup environment .

What were you like as a kid ? Were you able to go from one group to the next group socially with ease ?

Bill , who was really our operations expert . He could walk through a warehouse and by the end of a tour he'd know everyone's name . He'd know what everyone did . He understood the business so well , the operations so well . You couldn't help but learn from him as you walk through buildings with him and spend time with him out on the floor .

What he likes to say that a big part of what Grasshopper has done is taken a lot of Bill's brain and put it into a technology platform . I think what people have responded to most over the years whether it's people in operations , they see what Grasshopper can do and they see , wow , this is really a novel approach .

It really fits well with what we're already doing . It looks like it was built by operations people , because it really was . It was a very granular way to build a technology platform that was built by collaborating with operations people .

Every day , when you show it to people who are on the e-commerce side or the retail side , they look at it and say , wow , this is such a useful tool . This is exactly what I need .

You don't have to be a personality expert , you don't have to be the life of the party in order to get people to see the value in the technology and how much they can do with it . At the end of the day , we really are solving problems for people .

We really are helping the people on the operations team , we're helping the drivers , we're helping the people who mend the phones and we're helping the people who actually sell the product . We're helping the consumers , who get their tracking links and get to see where their product is and where their order is at all times .

It's a very useful platform and that's really what we have focused on since the beginning . Have the right people . Figure out what your customers really need . Let's offer that to them instead of trying to convince them that technology is so wonderful because it can do these 47 different things .

Let's figure out what people need and then let's give them what they want .

In other cases , you find a co-founder through the industry or just life in general and you become friends over time . I like to always explore those dynamics because it can often dictate the success or failure of a company . Yet your story has another layer to it in that one of your co-founders , who unexpectedly passed his impact and legacy , is still .

It sounds like a daily part of the company . When the two of you get together and talk , do you ask what would Bill say in this moment , or how would he approach this issue , and how do you move on .

We came from two different sides of the same industry , but I think we are very ying and yang . Tag is a calm , relaxed , what I call it me the guy who's going to take the pressure out of all the hotheaded .

When I come in and twice a year when Tag is a hotheaded , I'm able to say , okay , this is not normal , tag is a guy who never gets hotheaded , so I become the guy who takes the pressure out . You need to have this very good core understanding of your partners and know how to work with each other .

We know each one has bad and hard days and as long as you are like , okay , you cover me here , I'll cover you there , it's very easy .

Now , when Bill was part of us , it was also very kind of a nice symphony that each one is playing his own instrument , and Bill unfortunately passed away we noticed how well prepared he created this , his area of expertise , that all the people under him stepped in within , I would say , 40 hours .

We really had a team said , okay , this is a crisis , but we will know exactly who does what . So within three or four weeks we stabilize the entire vertical of operations . And until today , literally last week , I spoke with George , one of the first guys that Bill brought in and asked him okay , we have this , what would Bill do ?

And it was like five seconds of okay , let's think about it . And he would do that . It was very trivial , it's a kind of a clear answer , but it's like , okay , it's another stamp of approval . Bill used to take this approach . He's not with us on a daily basis , but with us on every kind of mission critical decision that we reply .

So we had people in three different locations . Then COVID hit . People went home . What happened was a lot of our people from New Jersey moved to other places . We're down in North Carolina now . We have people in Florida , north Carolina , georgia , connecticut , delaware , new Jersey . We've got people all over .

What's really has happened is we've all stayed in touch . We've all stayed in touch through Zoom . This had happened 15 years ago . I'm not sure what would have happened . So many companies couldn't have made this transition .

The fact that we're all able to talk out of moments notice for every day or we have regular scheduled Zoom with each other , it enables us to continue to stay in touch . And actually the culture isn't necessarily something that we state now we're working on culture . It's as you continue to talk to people .

That's something that we have in our offer letters that we use , as we say you're going to be working this department reporting to this person , but it is important to deliver it , that you collaborate . You will be talking to other people around the firm and other people will call you with questions and it is a core value for us that our team collaborates .

People see right up front , even if you're in a silo , there are going to be times when people check in with you and it's important to this firm that you answer that call , that you answer that question , that you work with people that you may not know all that well , just because it's something that we all say , we're signing on to when we first start to work

into it .

We want to trust you that , whatever you are , you do the work . I think , if you understand , this is an environment that everyone need to play well together . That's very important and we don't expect to micromanage it . If you don't trust the people because they work from home , you already have a problem with the people , not that they matter where they work .

Second thing we adopted the , so we have the no jerks allowed rule . That pretty much , if you are becoming a poison to the environment you're working with , doesn't matter how strong your skills are in your area of expertise .

It's a very easy decision for us to say you might be a good guy , but not to us , and we'll have to stay friends but not working together . It doesn't have to end bad .

It just has to make sure the culture fits to what you want , to make sure your team knows what's important , which is , first , you need to be an adult individual that knows that this is the environment , that we want it to work together . And second , you should not be a jerk .

Okay , you can be very direct , you should be very honest , but you don't have to be a jerk .

Or if you could do something over again , you would do it this way .

the technology solution and try to get it out there in people's hands earlier than we did . I think I wish we had done that earlier . Hindsight is 20-20 , right , so I think each time we had to make an important decision , I always feel like we were making good choices , but I'd love to be further ahead on licensing than we are today .

The fact he doesn't give up on it is a way . It's like he's a big brother . I never had kind of a way . So I think definitely Bill was a big impact .

and that kind of legacy lives on in one way , shape or form with every delivery that happens . That has to be some small sense of peace or gratitude , so thank you for sharing that . I know that that's been a challenging road for each of you , doug . What advice would you have then ?

There's somewhere right now a young man or woman wanting to build technology in the supply chain space , wide-eyed and full of optimism . What advice would you give to them as they launch their company ?

I think if your goal is to build the biggest company , to solve the biggest problem , to have the biggest impact , then you're not just going to be focused on technology alone . You'll also be focused on . You know it's a $1.2 trillion logistics market out there . Right , it's massive , and so you know .

I've seen estimates that say technology focused on logistics is a $25 billion a year market , which is , let's be clear , that's a very big market all by itself . The fact that you could actually have an impact on the $1.2 trillion part of the pie is massive , and there are plenty of successful companies out there that do many billions of dollars in revenue .

You know they're nowhere close to maxing out . It's such a huge market . I think you have to be clear on what it is you're trying to accomplish . I think you can build a very successful company in just services and logistics , and you can build one in just technology . You've been doing both and it's more difficult , but I also think we're adding more value .

Just because we have so much the technology improves our service . Because we have the service , we're able to market the technology , and so there's a very complementary effect of having these two pieces in the puzzle and I think it's taken us a long time to build up to a critical mass .

But what's great is you know we're coming through a difficult economic environment and we're doing very well because we continue to attract new business , new accounts . People see that we are having an impact . We really are making their businesses better . We're solving these huge logistics problems for them , and we do it through technology .

So my advice is decide what it is you're trying to do . Be very clear on what your goal is . Be ready to change it if conditions change . Really set out to figure out . Are you thinking about logistics and services ? Are you thinking about technology ? If you're going to do both , just be clear on it .

Just be honest with yourself what it is you're really doing .

It's about growing as meaningfully as possible . With that lens in mind , ori , what are you most excited about for the next five years ?

We build an iPhone where the hardware connects to the software all things very well together . So far we don't know anyone who took the same approach . You have a lot of logistic companies that have third parties , software vendors . They can't really think the same way and you have a lot of software companies that have nothing to do with service .

And I think the fact we have the service dancing and singing very well with the technology give us an edge against pretty much all the competitors . And I think the fact that our platform became accepted by many of our competitors that for them this is something they can't really fight it because it will make them even better . They are open to connect to it .

So I'm most excited about how far this technology is going to be in the next five years . I think we will be in a lot of many major junctions in where all the communication within the final mile space takes place .

It's only going to make the platform even stronger for us as a company , but I think the entire industry , everyone talking the same language by having one uniform way of how final mile need to be handled both on the communication side , on the operation side and the customer experience side , all in one way , whether it's going to be through Gassoper or it's because

Gassoper is putting kind of a new standard of this . How should be your post-delivery experience when something goes wrong on your delivery ? This is how things should be handled when the truck is late . All the things should be becoming oh , we will set up the tone and everyone else will follow .

And yet the consumer drives just about everything nowadays when it comes to delivery . You want a terrific delivery experience , you want visibility , you want predictability , and yet the consumer is somewhat king , because they may not be home when you're supposed to make the delivery , because something came up , and then you simply have to react to that .

So , doug , what do you think the general public gets wrong or maybe misunderstands about home delivery ? That maybe if they actively participated in that exchange more , might make it more beneficial for everyone .

. I think the pandemic really changed that for people . Suddenly , everyone was hearing about supply chain problems and it was affecting food at the grocery store and it was affecting you know products . People were ordering cars , you name it . Everybody started talking about supply chain . People started thinking about it .

I think for the average consumer , they just think oh , you know what , I live in Buffalo and I need to get this product returned to Philadelphia , and so it should be real simple . Just , you know , there's got to be a truck going from Buffalo to Philadelphia . Just get it on that truck .

You know , I say to people there are these major arteries of how big and bulky products flow around the country . You can say that things are close together . So how hard would it be to get that product from one you know one city to another nearby city ?

But it's really hard and I always say it's like you know , you've got blood in one finger and you're trying to get it into the finger right next to it . You can't just pump it straight from one finger to the next .

Now it actually has to go all the way back up through the small veins , bigger veins , to your heart , back out to a big artery , back down to a smaller artery , and then add to the other finger , and you just can't move stuff the way you'd like to , even though the map says it should be simple .

That's not actually how the network is set up , and so I think a lot of people don't have the appreciation for how complicated logistics can be and how efficient logistics are when they work in the correct direction and when you're trying to go against the stream . It's very difficult .

It's a problem that people are trying to solve today , and we've seen lots of companies start up in that space and have failed . It's hard to make it work . People don't want to invest the time in figuring it all out , nor should they have to you and I . You can understand that .

We've got you know internal combustion engines and you know now electric vehicles and we can know basically how they work . But you know you don't need to be able to build an engine or build an electric car right in order to drive one Like you should just be able to get in the car and go , and that's how logistics usually is for people .

They just want to get their product where they want it when they want it . Don't explain to me all the stuff that goes behind the scenes that you have to figure out , like I'm paying you to figure that out . I don't want to know how to do it .

We're getting a very distinct science and art vibe A left brain , right brain . And then I also hear this calm and steady Doug and then the fiery and passionate Ori .

So the dynamic that the two of you have is compelling because it tells me that it's not just a business relationship , it's a friendship and you've got complementary skill sets but shared values and that's a gift . I don't know if you maybe take a moment out of your day ever to say hey , doug , thanks Like hey , ori , thanks for being my partner .

That has to be gratifying to have found somebody that you work so well with . Last question for each of you what would you like to say to the other ?

You know the Facebook story and those guys and even him . I don't think yet that easy time . It's so hard . So if you're not a good co-founder that does exactly the thing you do not want to do or do not have a skill to do , I admire people do it on themselves . It's so hard to do it themselves .

I'm saying find the first guy that you can really do this with .

I don't think Ori spends any time thinking , oh , how am I going to have to explain that to Doug ? We just know that we're both committed to the same goal and , yes , problems come up all the time . We just have to talk them through and we have to work through complicated situations .

I think over the years , we've learned how the other person likes to process things , and so we might say hey , like Ori will say to me , this is going to take you a little time to wrap your head around , so I'll give you the heads up .

You're going to have to start thinking about this topic , so that's good , I get to do some processing on that and then be ready for when we have to make the decision .

But really , as Ori said , it's so difficult and there's so many things that come up that you're not expecting , and there's so many things that come up that you think about afterwards and you just say I cannot believe that we had to worry about filing with the Department of Labor in the state of Connecticut because we hired someone to do a project for two weeks .

Now they're forcing us to register with state of Connecticut and then we got audited by them at some point and it was over something like $38 . And you just like these mind-numbing things that come up as you're trying to scale these mountains , like , really I got to deal with that .

I have to get on the phone with an auditor about something like this is nuts . Things come up all the time . You have to be very solid with your team . You have to have the right partner , you have to have the right partners and I think our whole management team . We all think along the same lines that we're on the team , we're in this together .

Collaborating is a nice way to say it , but we're really all committed to getting to the goal together and it's a very powerful feeling of motivated team , a quality team and a committed team all trying to get to the same place together One of the best things I've ever done in my life .

Be sure to like , follow or subscribe to the podcast to get the latest updates . To learn more about the show and connect with the growing community of entrepreneurs , visit LogisticsFounderscom . And , of course , thank you to all the founders who trust us to share their stories .