Moving Forward with Robert Rafjer & Tyler Sala

We are nearing the end of 2023 , a big year in the industry , of course , with the market flipping and lots of headlines on companies going out of business some seemingly dire news .

In the middle of all that , we still have entrepreneurs and founders taking big risks and starting businesses in a down market , which can be a huge opportunity for those who can make it through to the next cycle .

With that as the backdrop , I'm really excited this week to get to talk to Rob Rafer and Tyler Sala , who started Wagon earlier this year during maybe one of the most turbulent times that I can recall . Rob and Tyler , welcome to the show , tyler . How are you today Doing ? Well , nate , thanks so much for having us . Absolutely , rob .

I know you have a background with some of the big names in the industry . We both have spent some time at CH Robinson . Then I know you moved on to Flock for 8 as well . Now you decided to launch your own thing . What was the catalyst for making that decision in what some people would say is the riskiest time to possibly start a business ?

Then one day I wanted to go into finance or law and I realized that wasn't the path for me . That's how I ended up in the business . It was March of this year and there were some pretty significant compensation cuts at Flock for 8 . I had a conversation with Warren , who's the CEO at Flock . I have a ton of respect for him and I like him a lot .

I said , look , if we can't work this out and if there's not an opportunity to really have a conversation about this , I'm going to leave and I'm going to start my own . I hope we part as friends . He was super supportive . Actually he's a good guy . I remember he said to me congratulations , of course , welcome to the life of entrepreneurship .

It is rarely glamorous and always fulfilling , and he couldn't have been more right about that . I looked at the job market out there and I just didn't like what I was hearing in terms of other opportunities . I have two very close friends from high school for years who were saying do this , you'd be amazing at it .

I said , yeah , it was that easy , everybody would do it . I gave them a call and I said I think it's time , I think I'm ready . Can you guys help guide me and really put me in the position to succeed , because I never created financial projections before , I've never done all the stuff that is creating a business .

I obviously understand freight and have a background experience doing that . I understand sales and account management and even care sales and operations , but that side of things was a lot less clear to me . They've been amazing partners in terms of really helping guide me , and Tyler as well , and giving us the foundational backbone to launch this thing .

What was your initial impression of Rob , and how did you get to the place of being like this is the guy that I want to ride or die with .

And Rob and I kind of completely hit it off from this sales and ops background and I leaned on him immensely for just guidance on how to do this . You know how do you call somebody who you've never spoken to in your life . You know like what does that look like Cause to me ?

I couldn't think of any worse anxieties in the world than doing something like that . So we immediately hit it off . I just knew he was sharp , he was savvy , he really knew money and finance and like how the dollar worked and trickled through our crazy economy and everything , and we just immediately hit it off .

We first became close friends and then from there , rob was always number one , I was always number two , chopping out his heels on the sales leaderboard . We started kicking around .

This , can you know , probably hadn't been about a year ago started really talking about it and everything and getting serious with it , and for me , I couldn't really have thought of somebody better to do this with . He's been an immensely great resource for myself . Just on , you know how to build a business . How the hell are we gonna do this thing ?

You know we're still learning every single day , but it's been a very challenging , beautiful journey so far .

A business is very much like a marriage , right , you know you need to trust that person completely and I don't think it works unless you open up the kimono for lack of a better phrase to you know whoever your business partner is and you interact on all parts of the business together , regardless of who does what in the day to day .

I also saw Tyler's operational background and I was like that's a perfect compliment to me and in terms of who's the level head one , it's Tyler .

It's like a lot of people out there who are building brokerages talk about the best people and the best teams , but there's not a lot of people who actually walk the walk , and Tyler and I spent a lot of time talking about how do we actually live that out every day and how do we make sure that we are constantly and continuously doing what we say we're gonna

do and making sure that those values are actually lived out in our customer and carrier relationships but , most importantly , the people that we're hiring , so with Wagon as a brokerage .

You know , the leadership at a lot of these brokerages , in my opinion , is extremely far behind in terms of adopting technologies that are out there and a lot of them feel the need to build technologies internally , and that creates a lot of engineering spend , frankly , what I'll consider to be a lot of waste .

There has been so much technological innovation from the venture capital world and just from the start of world in general , regardless of how it's funded in the space to create tons of different products for freight brokerages At scale .

They're not being used , you know they typically get thrown away and leadership seems to make the decision of hey , we're gonna actually build this ourselves . It equates to that analogy right of Jack of all trades , ace of none .

So , tyler and my vision is to create a modern service-driven brokerage that is the middle ground between your convoys and CH Robinson , right where we are adopting best-in-class technologies . There is almost zero engineering or tech .

We are connecting all of the software through open APIs to create our own customizations , and that allows us to create a super-high-powered brainchild which allows us to very efficiently and effectively service our customers and carriers , which , in my opinion , is paramount .

You also see a lot of noise . That's happened with venture-backed tech companies getting into the supply chain space with really no industry experience and some having success and some floundering . So getting that mix of innovation and new thinking alongside , you still have to understand the basics of this industry .

Parts of it are resistant to technology , but for good reason , For Ocean Freight . Ocean Freight has worked for thousands of years without a TMS . That's a fairly modern invention . The people side and the service side will endure , no matter what the technology is . Let's shift gears , though . I want to go , Tyler , to some of your own background .

You started off by saying you knew you had to learn sales or get good at it , and that that was scary on some level . How did you get over that fear Then ? How did you get over the fear of moving from being a W2 employee to being an owner ?

Everybody was remote . We were all in our homes all across America and everything . It wasn't like I could go to Rob at the water cooler and be like hey , man , I've made 15 calls today . I can't get anybody to pick up . What are you doing ?

There was a lot of finding that outreach , finding people who will give you a year , who will give you five to 10 minutes , leaning on some of the senior sales guys who were there , who had had a lot of success , and just really trying to be a sponge for those first early months .

From there it was more of like okay , we've got this , this isn't so scary anymore . I can make a cold call . I can figure out what I'm trying to articulate to these people . I felt like I had enough tools in the tool belt to really take that next step . I had always felt just in my career .

Having that operations experience , having that carrier experience , you really understand the nuts and bolts that it takes to make a shipment successful from A to Z , wherever it's going . Why not try to take all those tools and apply it for something ourselves ?

It was absolutely crazy . One day I was driving home , pulled off the road to get some food and a gentleman ran through a red light and hit me , going about 45 miles an hour , pretty much bent my car in half , spent two months in ICU and then , from end of March 2019 , until about December , I had to learn how to walk again .

That was one of the most humbling , eye-opening experiences I've ever been through . Really shows you what's important in life and , kind of looking back on everything , I just like to laugh and smile through it all now because I've got everything I need . I can get out of bed on my own two feet , I've got my family , we've got lights on , foods in the fridge .

Really , do you have your health in that ? So how did you not get bitter ? You know there was a lot of bitterness , a lot of bitterness in the beginning stages , realizing that I was supposed to be in that car , at that red light with that guy coming through that red light . Like life has a really funny way of you know , one

thing everybody told me is like everybody's story is kind of already pre-written , you just don't know it yet . So I was supposed to be in that car , I was supposed to go through what I went through , my family was supposed to go through what I went through , but you know , I think it just changes everything .

You really realize what's important in life and you know , I've kind of always said you know where do you put your energy and your effort ? And for me it's my family , my friends and my career . You know , if it doesn't fall into those three buckets , I'm kind of like forget about it .

And it's funny because the accident almost had to make me level that up now , because I've got probably like six pounds of metal in my hips now , so I have to do a lot of stuff in the mornings to make sure it doesn't tighten up , to make sure the metal doesn't get too stiff , and I've had to like put different routines in place just to make sure my body

can now function from a day to day . So it's very different because , like I was always an athlete , when I was a kid I squatted 500 pounds at my heaviest and now that's not a thing anymore .

So it's like you got to do all these different things to , you know , get you to where you want to be at the end of the day , and it's life works in funny , mysterious ways . That's what I've learned .

And it's been almost 11 years now , and every single morning , my very first step getting out of bed , my left foot hits the ground , and it is the moment every day that I start with gratitude of I'm lucky to be here .

I shouldn't be alive , and it's by the grace of God that I actually get to wake up today , and so for me , it's a daily reminder of how fortunate I am . And I do have gratitude , and we'll have to compare notes on hardware , because I had a bunch of it too , and I'm glad that you've made a full recovery .

It sounds like in that it that it has had that big of an impact on the rest of your life , because we're all looking for some kind of purpose or meaning in what we do , and if you've found that through hardship , it's a blessing in disguise . At the time , it's not a lot of fun , rob , I also know you've had quite the journey yourself too .

Take me through some of your own journey . Even as we're talking , I'm starting to get a better idea of how and why the two of you work so well together , knowing some of your origin stories .

One of the things we push , tyler and I on the team at Wagon is how important it is to take care of your health and that's something that's very much embedded in the day-to-day and I encourage the team that obviously getting your work done is incredibly important and the most important thing , but you've got to figure out how to weave it to your day-to-day and

the ability to take care of yourself and take care of your body . You know , in terms of my own experience , I had an older brother who died of a heroin overdose when I was 13 .

I don't talk about it a lot , not because it's not important to share , but because I just don't think that well , it doesn't matter why I don't talk about it enough , but I'm very lucky that I have an incredible family and a very strong family and I remember going through that as a kid and being like you know , life is very finite and realizing that from the

time I was very young and then , six months after he passed away , my dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's . He is the strongest guy I know . He has run over 25 marathons plus a number of triathlons in his life . He was incredibly healthy and fit and you know his ability to fight the disease has Largely been successful .

You know to a point , because of how much he took care of his health throughout his entire life . You know , I think that one of the big lessons that the three of us actually share is that you know , when you see these things happen , you realize that there's a clock , and I forgot who said it , but someone said that . Now let's forget that .

This thing alive .

And what if this happens ? What if that happens ? Yeah , I mean , even my parents , who are incredibly supportive , were scared and I understand the fear . I called Tyler and I just said if we don't bet on ourselves , what are we doing ? What's the point of us to live is to take a little bit of risk .

Unfortunately , every time you get in a car or taking a risk , there is no price too high to pay to be able to own your time , and that was really a large impetus For us .

Wagon is less than a year old and You've got huge plans for the future . So , as you look at what you imagine a wagon is going to be , one day , when you allow yourself to dream truly big , what do you think wagon can be ?

But I think you know , all this being said , the root of everything I do is I just generally enjoy helping people . I'm just like such a service oriented person .

So as long as we just keep building , keep growing and building a place that we can take care of our clients , you know , provide them one of the best services in the market and then also build a place internally For our people to come and really build a life in a future for themselves and their families .

I have kind of the same response each time is it didn't matter if this was a sports podcast or Something about education or health care . I look at it as whatever sphere of influence we have . Wherever we engage in our vocation , the vocation itself is almost irrelevant .

It's how we do it that matters , and the more we can humanize employees or customers or suppliers and begin to see people as more than their title or their company , we can build a sense of community or even just healthier respect for each other . That is often sorely needed . Maybe every once in a while that comes off as preachy , and I'm sorry .

I really do care about this industry and the people that are in it , and it's obvious that you both do as well . Question for you , then Rob who do you lean on or who do you go to as a mentor or when you're stuck on a business issue or a hiring challenge or something . Who do you go to ?

Tyler and I have had an immense amount of support from advisors in the industry . Senior CH Robinson . Executives who sit on our advisory board to our investors have been incredibly helpful as well .

One of our lead investors is also one of my best friends from high school and he has been just priceless as an understatement in terms of navigating a lot of the different tumultuous waters of running the business not the side that is , the freight side of running the business , but the side that is actually the business side of running the business , and the

strategy as well is huge .

So there's quite a few people who are in our corner and then tremendous amount of support from my family as well are very lucky in that regard , and Tyler and I I think we foster a very collaborative team environment and we lean on the team as much as the team leads on us , and that is essential to what we're building here For us .

We're running this business extremely lean . 80% of our burn is payroll .

We think that that value is very much articulated to our customers and carriers and that they see that Our essential thing is , as we look at new customer opportunities , we want to make sure that there is strategic buy-in on both sides so that strategic shippers , for example , can see the value of having a young and nimble partner with an amazing experience .

Team that's available , owners , mindset walking the walk these are the things that people have been saying throughout the industry for years . It's all kind of disappeared . It's all smoke and mirrors and Tyler and my vision is you know , we don't need a billion customers .

We can build a very strong , lean , well-oiled machine with a strategic group of customers who understand value and the flexibility that a partner like Wagon presents .

Right now , it's still very much a blank slate , and that's why part of what I love about the Bootstrapers Guide to Logistics is we have guests on that have built $100 million businesses and those who are kitchen table brokerage two people just getting started and close their first customer six weeks ago and it's a privilege for me to be able to have a front row

seat to the entire journey . The road ahead for both of you is going to have immense highs , and it's going to have low lows , if anything . What I'm picking up from both of you , though , is I'm less concerned about the lows for you . You've been through lows in your lives already . You seem equipped to handle that .

Maybe the small seed to plant for someday in the future is . Success can also bring its own challenges . When you get to that place of having taken over the world , it can be very tempting to let go of some of those values that got you there in the first place , and you can believe your own hype and you think look at all this that we did .

And you see it , sometimes when people have extraordinary success , very quickly it can warp their sense of self . I have a ton of confidence that the two of you are going to do amazing things .

I hope , when you get to that place , that you remember a conversation like this and you remember your roots and stay grounded and stay focused on the real mission and the real impact that you're trying to have . I know I'm going to be rooting for you for a long time to come .

Last question for you , tyler it's early , but what advice would you have to somebody who is considering starting a company and is terrified ?

Just like anything you do in life . You just got to do it . I think Rob hit on it earlier of like , if we looked up and we were 80 , 90 years old , start deteriorating away . What's life without taking a little bit of a risk ? Have a little fun with it . You can do something your way for once . Put your own little flair on it .

It might work , might not work , but at least you'll have a great experience on the way .

Can't wait to see that for both of you . Thank you so much , nate . Yeah , thanks , nate . Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapers Guide to Logistics , and a special thank you to our sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible . Be sure to like , follow or subscribe to the podcast to get the latest updates .

To learn more about the show and connect with the growing community of entrepreneurs , visit LogisticsFounderscom . And , of course , thank you to all the founders who trust us to share their stories .