That is really hard because you are not aware of all the things that they had to do to get there. You're just on your first six months of your record deal contract and you're trying to figure out, like why you're not selling out a stadium yet.
Welcome to episode five oh eight Troy Cartwright. Troy has a podcast called ten Year Town. That's how I was introduced to him. It's a really good podcast. It's I would say, a better version of this show.
You would say that, yeah, probably.
Yeah. He's like a legit songwriter. He's a legit artist, and we talk a lot about that. But I was drawn to his podcast because I was following it on TikTok and the clips would come up and now I was like, dang. And I went into his podcast and I don't think it's as big yet, but I was like, yeah, this is a better version of what I do in that.
While though you see something on TikTok and you think it's massive, Like I've been seeing his clip for a long time now, and it's weird seeing he's per inspected from his side.
Yeah, yeah, I really like it. I like him a lot, and so we'll talk to him coming up in just a second. As we hop in to episode five O eight, I was watching Speaking of TikTok, was watching clips from your podcast, Mike Movie Mike's Movie Podcast, and I am fascinated and have been fascinated with the Oklahoma City bombing.
I'm like so into That's kind of how I learned about it. I just watched the Netflix documentary that just came out.
Oh there is one, yeah, I saw so that's why I saw you talking to I didn't know that was on Netflix.
Yeah, director of the documentary, the director of it.
Because I was too young when it happened. I don't really remember it, and watching that documentary is me learning all the details for the first time.
Age Flex, I hear you, age Flex.
That story is crazy because there's like eight avenues of crazy, meaning you could go there out of who really was he?
Who are they working for? There's all that. There's also just how it was caught that's wild.
It was also crazy that when they didn't know it was him, they started accusing other people. They were like, oh, we saw Middle Eastern people coming out of that a building.
Yeah, it doesn't it show I mean, and that stuff still happening to It just shows like.
Even back in the nineties, like that was just there.
And in the nineties there was nobody to speak out against it because there wasn't social media or other forms of tell or other or eighty networks to go, hey, we don't think that's right. There were like three channels, four channels. But so the bomb goes off, it's not
a spoiler because it's a relevant in the history. The bomb goes off and the guy who set the bombs drives away and his license plate the explosion actually shook the car somebody, his license plate fell to the ground and that they found the license plate.
Yeah, and he was driving like seventy miles from there, got pulled over for another for.
Reason, Yeah, because he had no license plate, not because they were like that's the guy they And then he had a gun on him and no license plate. So they put him in jail, but not because of the bombing. And then he's in jail the whole time, and they're looking for, like you said, a Middle Eastern guy. They're looking for all these fake and he's sitting right there in prison. It's a all. It's tragic, it's sad, and he almost got ahead of.
Jail, like he was in court. They were like a better let this guy go, Like wait a minute, yep.
So go check out Movie Mike's Movie podcast. I would say if you love movies, it's a great podcast obviously, but even if you want to learn more about that, because you're talking with the director of that project.
Yeah, one of the retired FBI agents who was there rescuing people.
I went to the building across the street because I went and toward the whole thing, and so went up and there's audio of from the building across the street as they're having a city a town hall meeting because they record all the town hall meetings, and you hear it in the town hall meeting how loud the explosion was to the people across the street.
Yeah.
I didn't realize how massive the destruction was too.
Yeah.
So, and again there are a lot of conspiracy lanes to travel down if you choose.
But that's everything.
But yeah, you're right, check out that on Movie Mike's Movie Podcast. And not so much just a plug about Mike's podcast, which is great, but I'm super interested in that. I'm super interested in songwriters and especially the viewpoints of songwriters, which is what Troy does. He brings on others and they have talks, and so this is my talk with him. This is Troy Cartwright and again the ten year Town podcast. I love it. Here's the episode. Enjoy Troy.
Good to see you, Good to see you. How you I don't know, it's kind of like that, I don't know. Good.
Yeah, My days I think are layered a bit different than yours. Yeah, just from the waking up part, right, So I think we're When people ask me that question, it's often like how you doing, I'm like, you know, I think it's I'm at a different stage of my day, so it's relative to what stage of the day you know you're in.
Yeah.
I was gonna say before, I really like you, by the way, and we spent time on your podcast, and I definitely want to talk about that. Yeah, I didn't know you, but i'd seen ten Yuretown on TikTok, saw the clips. Yeah, and really had a great time on your podcast, and I hope it was well received and very You have to say that, so I don't want you to say it. You have to say it. It's an obligation to say that. But yeah, you do a
great job. And I left going man, that was fun for me because I didn't feel like I had to do what I feel like I often have to do, which is take controls. So it's not a dude, and I'm not right when I do that, but I didn't have to do that with you.
You owned it.
And I hope people hear this and go, wow, maybe if this interview is not terrible, I'll go check out Troy's podcast.
Yeah, so, how are you enjoying that? I'm loving it still. Oh yeah. It's one of those things right where if I would have known how hard it was when I started, I'm not sure I would have done it. That's this whole career too.
I mean that's a microcosm for everything, this whole freaking city.
Yeah. So it's been a lot of work, but it's you know, it's been really rewarding and I you know, I enjoy getting to like to tell the stories, you know, and I like talking to people. Yeah.
I think you like what people should like about podcasting because I feel like you pay attention, you care, you are interested and curious, like you have all the things that I think I wish I cared about. Where I'm just like, ah, god, it's a lot to say, and there's another human in the room, and let's just see what happens. Like That's what I liked about, because you're very warm. I'll come back to the podcast. I wanted to lead with that, though, because I do feel that way,
and I know we've texted on once. Yeah, once or twice, But I wanted to say that at the beginning, so I didn't forget.
But thank you.
What I didn't know a lot about as far as your career was your music.
You're writing.
I knew you from doing the podcast, but I knew you did the podcast because you were also a writer, but I didn't really know what that story was. Yeah, I'm seeing now on TikTok because I'm a psycho super fan of yours.
Are you writing again?
Are you now writing and making content with what you're writing?
Because I'm seeing content? Yeah, So where are you in that stage? Uh? So I am writing every day? Have you always been writing every day? I've been writing every day more or less since I moved to Nashville eight years ago, almost nine years ago. Now I'm coming up on the title of my podcast. You know, so some Some's got a break soon.
You're about to be a millionaire then, because if you make it ten years, you're automatically a Millionaire's how it works.
Yeah. Yeah, So I'm writing all the time, and I have been working towards a new record for my my artist project, and you know, in addition to that, I am writing songs for other people.
So is that why I'm seeing you do you in music content? Because you're working on you? Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, it's because.
If you're.
Writing and you have a publishing deal, you're writing independent whatever you're doing, and you're writing for other people or you're writing to be pitched, you're probably not putting a lot of that content.
On social media. It makes sense if you're doing your own project. Yes, and it is, you know it. It's a it's a it's quite a long story and I'm happy to go into it if you podcast wants stretch it,
string it. But it's kind of like what we talked about on when you came on my podcast about like there's this opportunity with making content, you know, which is like the buzzword of the day, where you can really get heard, you know, you can get discovered, you can reach people, and when you're writing and making songs you're trying to you hope that it can mean something to somebody.
Yeah, the environment is very different and also the same in the way of what's great about now is the finger quote gatekeepers have far less control. Yeah, but the finger quote gatekeepers are now an algorithm.
That right, you don't even know who they are.
Well, at least you kind of knew the devil you were dancing with before. H But the freedom now is is that you have it, and it just takes the right thing at the right time and the right algorithm looking for the.
Right yeah, for it to hit right. There's something I heard one time about like increasing your your luck surface area so you you still got it. Like if you go if you want to go viral, you know, it takes a lot of luck, but can be more tries lead to more luck. And that's hard work. And and I've had, you know, some stuff go really viral.
What's really viral to a few reels last few years define a number.
I think when I posted That's why, which was trying to think if it was twenty three or twenty two. I think it was twenty two. I posted it right before Valentine's Day, and I went to bed. It wouldn't post.
It was weird it like I love. I went to bed story and wake up and it was big. It's like a Bailey's Donement type days. It was happening for so many people.
Yeah, but literally, yeah, I posted this thing and I was uncomfortable. I was singing to my camera, you know, not really my it's really my vibe. Yeah, it feels a little goofy. Yeah. I went to bed. I think that one was many hundreds of thousands, if not close to a million. The next day. The next day, and I had just gotten dropped from my record deal, so it was like, okay, here we go. You know, I was right, Are you a god guy? Yeah? Yeah, in my own way.
Yes, And and I and I think it's a great answer in your own way, yes, because I am in my own way as well.
I think we all are and we have our own.
Different But did that was that ever part of it where it's like something It didn't have to be a god thing, something bigger just showed me that whatever I lost in that, hey you've now been dropped, that maybe it's.
Not all lost. What did that happen at all?
With you?
Yeah? You know, there's this. There's this quote I really like that says opportunity is a strange beast that frequently appears after a loss. And I and that has been true for me a lot of times. And it was it was an interesting time because I was dealing with sort of a little bit of an identity crisis because ever since I when I first moved to town, I had some momentum coming when I came here from Texas, momentum based on what based on some music I had
put out. And this was very very like, you know, comparatively small, but it was there was something bubbling up and I was doing something that I think, you know, somebody somebody liked, and that your artist.
You're you're sick because you have different versions of your career. Yes, I have performance, got it?
Yeah? Yes, I have kind of a songwriting an artist and and now a podcast. You gotta do you want to.
Final like I'm five at times? Okay, So you move here with some momentum, yes, based on your performance correct performing I had started.
Up until that point, I was just living in Dallas, writing, you know, in in my bedroom basically, and I had made a record and I had put part of that record out and somebody that worked as like an independent radio promoter invited me. They said, you should come to Nashville and you should meet some people. So that's how I met a publisher named Jake Gear and then he set me up on some co writs. Blah blah blah.
Like a year later, I moved to Nashville and I got on the radar of somebody at the label and they signed me. It happened pretty quick, you know, I got I got a record deal, and that was that was a dream at the time. It was a dream come true.
It happened so quick that you didn't really got the eyes and cross the t's and or even understand that that was a thing.
You know, I've been thinking about this a little bit. It's it was a perfectly fine deal. Yeah I was.
I'm not insinuating it was lu Pearlman shady right right right, Uh, it was.
There's a lot of things looking back on that I wasn't thinking about. Part of that was just like what do I want to sound like? What do I want to say? How old are you? I was twenty six.
You're just starting at that age to figure out what You're just starting to figure out.
Yeah, I mean, you don't even know what you ask to that crisis. I understand the cirl. Okay, so what happens is you come to town. Here I go from writing. I was very rigid with my schedule when I when I was writing by myself, I woke up every day, I started writing at eleven, and I wrote until two or three in the afternoon every day. So when I moved to Nashville, Okay, now I'm getting set up on these co writes, and I'm writing with people, and now
there's these things called track guys. So now you're getting like these almost basically you're ending the day with a song that kind of sounds like a record, but you're you're going through you know, maybe one hundred different combinations of writers. So so over time, when you don't know exactly what you want to say and what you want to sound like, you can strangely lose your voice in the in that process. Mind me up.
And it's not exactly the same that quote if you don't stand for something, you'll stand for anything, Yeah, And it's that you aren't for sure, yeah, And you're around a lot of other people who kind of bar for sure, and so you're kind of pulled in directions of what you think might be the thing that works.
No doubt, And and what happens is then you get a record deal. Well they're geniuses, they know, so I want to do what they say. You know, I want to be you know, I like, I want to be a good artist and well liked and I'm a people pleaser. So all of these things. It's nothing, nothing nefarious is happening. It's just it start, it starts to slant towards the middle, you know, and then I'm making music that sounds like the radio, which is cool, but lost your edge though.
Yeah, the things that got you here you no longer have one because you're now here and you're trying to sound like here, which is very easy to do because yeah, same anybody that moves to town and you're around quote these geniuses, Yeah they're just us.
And when they moved here, they saw the geniuses. Yeah.
It's almost a cycle that everybody goes through, and you have to do it wrong in order to fully understand that no one's ever right.
Yeah, nobody knows anything. You just you do. Eventually have to get back to a place where you go like, what do I what do, I want to say, you know, and and part of that is just learning the lessons of taking the hits, you know. I mean, that's that's a big part of it. Yeah.
To me, it was if I'm going to fail, because I've already failed a bunch of times here doing different things, at least I want to fail doing it my way, because at least that feels like I honestly failed.
Yeah, and there's something there's a real truth to.
Success or failure when it's your truth, because you know it's genuine either way. Where if I you know, there were times my first couple of years here, I was hated. I was hated because I was way different. So at times I would manipulate or modify and it wouldn't go well. And it got to the point where it was, if it's not gonna go well, I'd rather it not go well with me being exactly me, because then I know it's me, it's not whatever I'm chasing.
Do you feel like you were you were modifying yourself to like fit into like some mold that you thought it was supposed to fit into.
My situations, as similar as it was to yours, was different in that.
Mine was genuine I hate you.
The word hatred, it would I would say uneducated hatred from the industry because I was so different in the industry is a big evil man that doesn't have a face. It's like when people can complain about the rady and I'm not mister fight for radio either, but it's like radio just won't. That's not a thing, right, It's so
when I say that. So it was an uneducated hatred toward me because I was different and I challenged norms and norms that felt comfortable then felt threatened, and after a long time of it being difficult for me, I thought, what can I do to make this not so difficult
for me? So it wasn't that I was going, I'm going to do this to get better because I have confidence in that area, but it was this sucks, like I'm having articles written that aren't true about me, and like local music industry magazines, I'm having four or five different type of of of deal and I'm like, you know what, I'm just I'm going to lose some of my edge, so some of that edge is not given back to me. So the parallels are from your story of mine are similar, but the same thing it still.
Didn't go well. Once I changed and got a little softer.
Yeah, I was like, I'm just gonna be me and then if I fail, at least the truth is I failed because I failed with with who I was totally.
Yeah. You you almost think it's gonna be easier because you give in to what you think you're supposed to do, but the you know, the end result is uh. I was just I was becoming very dissatisfied. I was waking up and looking in the mirror and being like, I'm not this feels out of sync.
Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor, and we're back on the Bobby Cast.
I bek you're losing yourself. Yeah, because what happens is you are surrounded by the system that is holding you are constantly standing in comparison to the most successful artists on the planet, and that is really hard because you are not aware of all the things that they had to do to get there. You're just on your first six months of your record deal contract and you're trying to figure out, like why you're not selling out a
stadium yet. You know you've got to kind of like, okay, well I'm going to reverse engineer this and try and sound like this. And it's not even always intentional, it's just sort of the way that the like I said, the table is slanted towards the middle, so you just kind of end up making stuff that is palatable to this this middle. But in the in the process, you know, I lost me in there, and that is you know, it sucked and it was hard, and then it all went away and that was hard.
So and that was my next question. Did it take it all going away for you to realize nothing to lose, got to get back, got to get back on my track?
Yeah? So, I mean it was so out of the blue to me when they when they dropped you, Oh, you had no idea it was coming, no idea I had. I had a record coming out. It wasn't even out yet when that happened, which which you know, what's the call? What's that call? Then?
Uh, it's it's it's an ep No, no, no, what's the call? When they call you or they in your oh what's the call? What do they say to you? Because that sounds like, yeah, well that's when something is underperforming.
But what's interesting is that no one ever called me, oh, you're still signed. You have no idea, but you're still signed. Yeah, my my manager, you were never dropped. Yeah, it's just in Yeah. My manager asked me to go to lunch. I was not writing that day.
Uh.
It was like a Monday or a Tuesday. We went over to uh Ed Lee's in twelve South and we were sitting outside on the patio and and he was like, look, I had to tell you something and it's not good. Oh God, And yeah, I mean, you know, I still remember it.
What was his explanation? What was the justification? Because they obviously saw something in you? Yeah, and then they didn't. So something happened in the middle where Yeah, was there a change in any sort of executive.
You know, I don't know. And and I've I've since seen some of those those people, and and I've I've asked the question many times, uh, you know from my manager, and I don't know that there ever was like a great answer, a great answer or a satisfying answer. Uh. And the answer may just be like it came from on high that they're spending this many dollars and they need to spend this many dollars, Like I don't know, but but yeah, it just it just it went away, you know, And did you lose confidence?
Uh?
I had to. I had a really uh high wire to walk because my record was still the songs that I had done were still planning on coming out, even though they had told me that they weren't going to that they weren't going to move forward after that, so they.
Were going to put it out, but they were going to put any money into promotion of it. Yeah.
It was sort of one of those things where like, but maybe, hey, maybe if something happened to catch, then maybe we're not going to best anything in it.
But if it happens to catch, yeah, so so now so now I'm faced with this situation where I'm promoting a record.
I'm my mask right is is full of of confidence and and doing like some press stuff, you know. But I'm just defeated, and I'm just waking up every morning wondering, like what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. I mean, you think it's over, You think you think that your dream is dead.
Did you have some money that to get you through for a few months?
Yeah, I had a publishing deal. Okay, so you're still writing in a pay Yeah, And then I knew that when the so I basically didn't tell anyone, even though I knew, I didn't tell anybody for like four months. So that was very, very lonely because I didn't want to say something. And then and then it changed, and I wanted. I was worried that people wouldn't want to write with me anymore if I wasn't as signed artist. So I was like, I'm gonna let this play out for as long as I can before I have to
say something, so you know it. It It went on, and then the new year happened. I think this was turning into twenty twenty two, and uh, and then by publishing deal also went away, you know, and then you're really faced with like, oh man, what am I gonna do? You know? Somebody has I had this jinga tower and somebody somebody kicked it over, you know, and I've got to rebuild it. And then I thought I had a single on an artist as a writer. I thought I had their next single and got a call that that
wasn't happening. And that day is the day that I thought, well, I got absolutely nothing to lose at this point, and I sang this song called That's Why into my phone and posted it and went to bed, and then you know, it blew up and then my and then my life changed again.
You know, the timeline of you being told that's not going to be a single, but it's still cut by the artist, so it's not gonna be the single. The timeline of being told that and recording this was was.
What the song was recorded?
No, no, no, I'm trying to figure out when you're told it's not the single anymore. And that's crushing because that's where the money is. Yeah, So when you record a song into your phone, is it same? You say the same day, week and week?
Uh, I'm not. I'm not sure. I'm totally understanding the question. Are you talking about this? I'm calling you right now.
Hey, I'm artist, I'm I'm Jimmy Jams, and we're not I'm not cutting your song as a single and you're now heartbroken.
When do you record the song that goes viral? Okay? Gotcha? So the song that went viral I had I had written just with some friends of mine, so it was like it was like a demo. Uh, and I just that's what I posted was just it was like a piano vocal It wasn't even you singing. It was me singing. But it wasn't like the fool. It wasn't a full on record, right, I was it that night? Uh? That song? I don't know. It was a few months old. No, the song, the song had just been sitting with me.
I'm not asking the question right from being told you're not the single to you getting on your phone and recording that on TikTok.
Different songs, correct, Yeah, yeah, but what what's the what's the time difference in them going up? This is not a single, and you're going, okay, screwed, I'm just gonna sing on TikTok two hours? That is my point.
Yeah, that was exactly what I was leading it up too, freaking hours. Yeah, and that's I think that's also why I was so confusing, because that's almost like alien abnormal.
Type stuff totally doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense.
So you record it, Yeah, you go to bed, you wake up, you're like, well how about that? Well I guess like this what happens then? Does anybody like slide into the DMS to go, hey, I like your sound, or do you let it build for a again?
Because it doesn't just stop right. So at that point I was like, all right, I gotta put this song out. Yea, yeah, there's some like logistical things I gotta figure out to do that. Maybe maybe three weeks later the song out far and away like the biggest release of my career. Did it stream dude like crazy? It was like you know iTunes downloads, It was on the it was on the chart. I mean, it was the thing I'd always dreamed of happening, and here it is happening to me
and I and I owned it all. I mean that was that was the craziest part. If this would have happened six months earlier, it would have been it still would have been life changing, but it was. It was life changing to me financially when it happened, because it I was, as we've just been over, like, I was not necessarily in a great position to uh to uh have a career in the music industry at that point, What did you think your options were?
As soon as they said hey, because it feels like your last life draft at that time was the single that was probably going to be cut by artists, Well, what did you think your option were once they said that wasn't happening.
I think I'd gone through the thought work of being so low for so long. You have moving home, No, I didn't because my wife, I very vividly remember, we went out to Utah. We went to like, what's the one with the I think it's called Arches. I was gonna say the one with the arches, but Arches? And uh, you drive from Salt Lake, it's like a four hour drive. And I was like, look, I don't know, like, I don't know, I don't know if I can keep doing this, Like I I don't know if I have it in
me to keep going. And uh. And she told me, she was like, look, you're you're too good and you're too close to give up. Now you you have to keep going.
What's funny about you saying that is the fact that she could see how close you were, but you felt so far away at the exact same time.
Yeah, and and and there have been many times since then where you know she's believed in me. You you need you need that belief. I'm I'm so lucky to have people in my in my life like that, and and and ultimately, you know, you gotta believe in yourself and that can be the hardest one. That can be the hardest one to find of all. I think some of it though, is that you look like Jesus. Get It's like people are just like, you know what, the guy looks like Jesus. Let's say, let's give a song
a stream. Yeah, I get, I get Jesus and uh and diet Ryan heard a lot wish Yeah.
That's funny. I'm I'm really good friends of Ryan. I was text about them last night.
Yeah. He just put out a record that's really good. It's so great. Uh you wrote on did you write in that one? I didn't write on that one. I wrote in the one before. What'd you write for him before? What are you drinking?
That's a good one too. I'm big Ryan fans, so yeah, so same. I know all of ustuff just because we're friends. And if I don't, he quiz me and then I'll be a loser.
But that's a great song. Yeah.
So I was looking through some of the cuts Ryan Don't don't don't don't tell me, okay, Cody Johnson, Yeah, I don't know what was a song?
Wished it was you. It's some of the record that just came out. How so not a single.
But how does Cody's albums, he's a big artist do well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's hard to make money if your song is not a single. But are you are you seeing anything off of that not being a single?
But because of Cody and Heed does stream so well, I think I will. It's it's like for those people that that don't know that there's a there's a long there's a pretty a lot of lag time in between when a song comes out. I think that record came out in the fall, and so I haven't even seen you know it had It'll be whatever June quarter is before I see any other not Creed Nickelback, Nickelback, Yeah, it's pretty crazy. That was a weird one. Please uh long story short? I want I want long story mid
at least. Yeah. So I I my publisher at the time, This guy named will Overton uh he uh was over at Warner Chapel and he got an email from somebody who was working with Nickelback and they were looking for songs. I don't even remember what the prompt was. What the prompt was was not what the song was about.
So you didn't have this song already to give them they gave you the prompt for something they were looking to have, so you went and wrote it.
No, the song was written. Somebody reached out to my publisher and said, we're looking for songs like this, do you have anything got it? So my publisher put together a link of like I think it was a six songs and just send it over. And this happens all the time, and it never works. Never. It's like an audition. It never happened. You never get the audition and projecting
because I never get the audition. Yeah, yeah, uh. And I think it was probably six weeks later he gets an email or a call and it says, hey, this song, this is Chad's favorite song. He loves this song. And so Will called me and told me that, and I'm like, okay, like what what does this even mean? He's like, I have no idea. Oh that was it.
There was no no other It was just his favorite song. It's not like, hey, he's.
Gonna cut it. Hey Ha's cutting Yeah. I mean at that point you're like, I think he's going to cut it. Yeah, but it's just right now, just he likes it. He likes it. Yeah, So all right, we're dancing we're at the dance. It's a good spot to be. Two and a half years ago, by holy so, I think I'm
you know, I've moved on. You know. I had this this like jet ski in my mind that I was going to buy with that money and and uh and uh, you know that dream had died and then uh it was Yeah, it was like after I was on the road.
I was driving back from a show in Houston, I think, you know then like a Walmart and like, uh, little rock or something, and I could just get a text and it's the song the File Bady cut and they sat the file had cut it, and then and he and and Chad came in and like he he had like tweaked a couple of things and uh and yeah and then that was the song. And it was like, I mean, it was crazy because uh, Nickelback's Silver Side Up was the second record I ever bought, you know,
when I was twelve, and everybody had it. It was it's a great record.
It's a great record.
Yeah, they have great songs.
And I am a hater of Nickelback haters.
You don't have to be Nickelback lover, but there's no reason to being a Nickelback hater. It's just because they make good freaking music. Dude, people hate stuff it's popular, you know. I think that's all it is. I just had I was just talking to h to a chief who's who's was was their manager and is now their manager again, and uh, and yeah, it's just it's just one of those things. You know. Every everybody hated FGL for a while for for some reason, you know, and
my personal reasons. But yes, I understood that.
Yeah, Coldplay, if you get so big, you get corny, even if you're not.
Yeah.
My question has been and I've asked that a couple of times to friends and even on this podcast, Like I'm waiting for Morgan Wallen to get corny, even if nothing changes with what he does. You reach a level of popularity where it doesn't matter how great you can be, sustained greatness. But once you hit this level of so many people love you, then it's corny to also be one of the people that loves you. Yeah, and so it's I wonder when Morgan Walling gets corny And he's
not there yet. But if you it's just a popular When you get so popular, yeah, you get a bit corny only because you're so popular.
Yeah, well, it becomes the It almost like the potency of what you're doing almost gets deluded because so many people start doing it as well. I mean you see you see it happening right now with Morgan, you know, I mean a lot of people are chasing that sound and it's a great sound. So so I understand it.
The Bobby cast will be right back. This is the Bobby Cast.
And I could even understand why people would go out, Well, that doesn't feel nice, like you're saying Morgan Wallan's corny. No, I'm saying I'm using Morgan Wallen as the standard of when you look at massive acts, Yeah, who got so big and so many people love them that it was no longer cool to be one of the people that love them because so many people love them that you're just part of the herd, and nobody wants to be part of the herd. Yeah, And so it's cool to
see Morgan. It's cool to see like Zach Bryan. It's cool to see Luke Combs not be corny yet and be able to do stadiums. Yeah, because that's about the time when you become so popular people feel like I don't want to be a fan anymore because everybody loves them.
Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine, Like, was Tom Petty corny at some point? Did that happen?
It's dude, First of all, I love Tom Petty like that is like my favorite. I was watching a TikTok last night because I'm on Tom Petty TikTok like I used to be.
It's one of the best places to be.
Yeah, and so, oh, we're gonna side really on this one for a second. So Tom Petty to me top three Grace American rock artists of all time. I say American because you can go through the debate. I did have Ringo Star here a few weeks ago. It was awesome.
Wow. Yeah, I hit with everybody rub that in there.
So Tom Petty was talking about how if he went to watch Ray Charles, he would want to hear Ray Charles.
Do.
I forget what song he said specifically, but what I said, whatever song it was, Yeah, and he said, I know he started playing that thing after fifty years, but if he doesn't play it, I'm disappointed. Yeah, And he said, I have three songs that I feel that way about. And so I paused it because I'm insane in my head,
and so I played a trivia game with myself. We're the only person that could win or lose with me, and so I tried to guess the three songs that Tom Petty was about to say that they expect him to play at every show, And before he even said the songs, he said, I played them at every show.
I don't mess a lot with the melodies, but I try to put them in places that excites me, and I try to put them up as a part of things that can still excite me because I don't get excited about playing them because I've played him so many times.
Yeah, he wasn't the second.
They weren't great, and I can understand that. On like the radio side, we do a segment. It's called tell Me something Good. We've done our fifteen years, we'd it four times a day. I can never do it again to be the happiest person ever in my life. But it tests so well, it researches so well. I go places and people sing the jingle to me, and so I owe it if people like it, to keep doing it.
Yeah, totally.
So I'm not Tom Petty close, No, not at all, But I can understand in that way where it's like one of the things that people say the most to me and that they love the most. I don't really like doing yeah, but I used to love doing it, and I understand why people like it, and repetition is going to warm me out. So with Tom Petty, what do you think that three songs are?
Uh, American Girl, free fall In, and I'm gonna guess won't back down all three? I would have said, probably because he has so many songs. Yeah. The three that he said were.
Last Dance, Mary Jane, Yeah, free Falling and Renegade Renegade, and he said he just had no interest in playing them anymore, and he thought they were great when he wrote them, but when they would show up, people are like, oh my god.
So we had to find ways to make it, could keep it interesting, to keep it interesting to him. Yeah, there would be times too.
By the way, this is why I enjoy you over here because I feel like we can just talk music, which is nice.
Yeah.
Also because you're like a savant like Berkeley, and then you're like super genius and I'm not near smartest you, so I can ask you things and get smarter like I like being around.
People like that.
So there are artists that I love and have been to their shows, and as similar thing has happened when they've played a song so many times where they start messing with the melodies and changing.
The words a little bit. I don't like that. Yeah, I understand that.
And you can do like Creep from Radiohead, when they just stop playing it for a decade.
Well, yeah, you get tired of it.
For sure, But it's to have the awareness like Tom Petty's awareness of I'm so tired of this. But let me put myself as a fan, and if I were at a Ray Charles show, I would want to hear that song even though I know he feels how I feel, so he kept playing it.
Garth does the same thing. Yeah, Garth plays all the hits. Yeah, you know he's tired of it. You know as an artist, you being an artist, you want to play new, fun, creative, fulfilling, exciting things. You want to go where that excitement is. But but you think the thing that that that I always try and remember with with That's why, for example, I played that song so many times, but I know
I know that it means a lot to people. And I know, I know that there are people coming to that to my show because it was their first dance at their wedding or or it was playing for you know, when they got engaged or whatever that is. It's it's their songs. So I know that I I, you know, I'm super grateful for the opportunity to like have created something meaningful.
I to remind myself to be grateful because I think it's easy for me to forget. And it's not like I'm working at the mill like my stepdad, But it's easy to forget because we're in our own little world. We're trying to create ten thousand things at once. And is this good as as bad? Where all of our insecurity security is based on the feedback of people by consuming. It's a nutty world, right, Like a screw's got to be off for us to do this.
Hopefully it's the right screw. And so the fact that.
Tom Petty had the awareness to make him a fan, to keep him from being good to his fans was so freaking cool to me because he is He's at the top of the mountain.
Yeah, same man, I mean, he's he's the guy you know, and like reading, uh, conversations with Tom Petty. I don't know if you've you've ever picked that up, but it's it's just a collection of things he said in interviews, you know, and it's it's it's it's inspiring to read, you know. I mean, he's just a guy like everybody else, but he he was tapped into something.
R be hypocritical wrophin am when Bob Dylan went acoustic to electric, Yeah, it's exact opposite, right.
Well, I was I was going to bring that up, you know, you think about like, uh, somebody like a uh like a like a Bob Dylan or and Neil Young that just they're playing shows and they don't care, and they're they're changing their songs completely. They're kind of I think. I think a lot of creativity is just sort of chasing, chasing this undefinable and attainable thing. And maybe that's what they got to do to keep to keep doing it. And uh, and that's that's what they've chosen to do.
It's a courage and a confidence. Yeah, because I saw Arim once. They never played a hit. It was the worst experience in my life. And I love r Em. Yeah, they played an entire new record. I hated that show. I respect that show. Yeah, because they knew everybody was gonna hate it.
That's tough. They had to do it, I guess.
But if Michael Stipe got famous, because again he has a couple of screws loose, they're the right screws rim you know, very late seventies, eighties, you know, in early nineties were massive. Yeah, for a reason they were different. I was pissed. I was like, this sucks. And it still pisses me off that I saw a band that I love not play a single song that I know. But that doesn't mean I also can't respect the courage and the confidence that.
It took to do that. Yeah, well they're u. It's it's a fine line to walk. But uh, you know, sometimes I just think of like Bob Dylan, and I'm like, that is a that is a very free man. He is he's walking through life playing only by the rules that he wants to play at and uh, and it's very tempting to want to do that. That's somebody who knows who they are, and I'm jealous of that. Yeah, It's it's it's a very uh you have you have to have a very strong sense of self to be
able to operate that way, and you gotta be wildly irrational. Uh, just all this business, well, I mean that is that is the absurdity of life. You have to be so irrational.
Think about just even you thinking that you're good enough to be able to record something and people will spend three minutes of their day which they have limited time listenings, or or spending a few bucks to come watch a show that you're gonna play at, or like me thinking I'm gonna go to a theater and people are gonna buy a ticket or spend fifteen minutes or an hour.
That is such interrational.
Yeah, and a balance of I'm wildly insecure, yet I still think everybody needs to listen to everything that I do.
Yeah, but I think what you're just what you're talking about is are you familiar with this this idea of like the absurd? Yes, So, like you know, like Albert Camus, like the universe doesn't care about you, and the only the way that we create value as a human being is to like do it anyway, you know, And I and I think exactly what you're describing, You're going to show up to a theater and like, you know, hope that people show up, which is it's absurd.
It's absurd that people would spend Yes, it's absurd to think that I think I'm good enough for people to dedicate their time and money to kind of do it.
But don't you feel like doing it? Do you feel like that gives your life? Yeah?
At the same time, it's it's the dichotomy of all dichotomies. Yeah, that I am a wildly insecure person. At the same time, I can still have a massive ego m that I think I manage healthily eighty eight percent of the time. So yeah, it's an odd business, especially when you start to diversifying two different things like you've done from being an artist, yeah, being a songwriter.
Doing the podcast I did see.
I mean I didn't love it, but you know, I got followed by two better podcasts, which was you had Kip on you had Craig Wiseman, and I was like, god, dang, if people forgot about me so quick on the A ten Year Town podcast, that's a little bit, that's right, you know, that was the opening act. You know, I was a baby I was a baby act on theodcast.
I really enjoyed our conversation out there.
Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor.
M HM, and we're back on the Bobby Cast. Wait you think about Kip. I love Kip. I think Kip is a is a is a real artist.
I think we talked about Bob Dylan like for different reasons. I think Kip in the same way that Kip just does his own freaking thing. And I think for a minute, Kip would probably admit that. For a while he was like, you know, I'll make kids, and finally he was like, screw it, I'm just gonna do what I do.
Ki.
Kip and I got into a big fight once, and it's the only artist I've ever done this with. And I've been in many fights with many people just because I say stuff, and I say stuff for five hours a day, and sometimes I say stuff that's accurate, inaccurate, overly opinionated, unfair, fair numbers, game right, right, And Kip and I got into it pretty good about some stuff
that I said about him personally. Yeah, I actually think it was about a parody of one of his songs that I was doing just be funny, But it wasn't about him and keeps a serious guy when it comes to music in his art, and he deserves to be And so he was upset, and so I was like, screw it, I don't give a crap. I'll do it again. And Kep was like, hey, will you meet me for breakfast? Like, oh man, I don't want I want to do that.
I don't do anybody. I don't like hanging out with anybody, not because I don't like people.
I just awkward.
I'm not This is the only place I thrive is with a microphone. Like if I were to see you, I'd be like, dude, it's so good to see you. Okay, I want to like I'm not good as a human. That's not my strength.
I relate to that.
And I was like, I did not want to do this. And Kep when I set at a restaurant, I just talked it out for like half an hour, and like I respected that process with him because he asked for it, expected it, and delivered his fairness to it. And I love Kip because of that. Kip and I are not alike in a lot of ways. We have our birthdays one day apart. It's pretty cool, But I love Kip and if people were like, hey, dude, can you come pick me up six hours away? I will get in the
car and go get him. Yeah, but are we going to hang out? Probably not because he like does muscle stuff. He like climbs stuff and does man stuff. Craig Wiseman. And you should go listen to the episode that you did with Craig. Like the guy has done, seen and worn it all.
He's done a lot of different stuff. Yeah, and he Uh, it's still I think the most inspiring part of it to me is with Craig. You know, it still comes from this desire to be close to that, to that thing, you know, to to where to Like we just want to get as close as we can to like where the magic is happening. Can you get to the magic? Though?
Because I don't feel like you actually can. I feel like I can't. I'll never get to this place that I am suing. That doesn't mean I've stopped or tried anything less. I just don't know if that place exists. But that doesn't mean it's not true. Can you get to Is there a magic place that you can get to and be fully fulfilled?
Uh? You have to ex For me, I can only speak for my own self. I think you have to fall in love with what the process is and not what the result is. And so there's a there's a moment that that there's a place that you can go to when you were making when you were writing a song, where you are Craig talked about it a little bit on ten Year Town. But where it's like it's called like a thin place where you are in the presence of something of of like you know, the creator or
the universe, whatever you want to call it. And and I have, I have been there a few times. Do you know you're there when you're there a little bit? But but but you it's kind of like, uh, you don't want to think about it too much. It's it's it's very surreal, and it's it's a very very hard place to get to. It doesn't happen very often. But I mean I think, uh, like I'm not a good golfer, but I'll play a few times a year, and every
now and then you just you just hit one. You're like, oh my gosh, I could go pro And it's songwritings. It's it's similar. Man. It's just some days you you know you're in the presence of something really powerful, and that is uh, that is like worthy of for me, It's worthy of like dedicating my life to chase.
My analogy would be playing crabs. M you ever play craps at all? Because you know I love playing craps. If I I'm writing for whatever book jokes, yeah, if I'm just.
Live on the air of feeling it killing it.
If I'm at a table and I'm I'm just throwing and I'm hitting points, I'm not crapping out. I'm not in my head. I'm not going well, I wonder what I'm gonna crap out. I wonder how long this isn't gonna go. I'm I'm just in it, not thinking about it too much because I think if I think about it, it's gonna end. But then when it's over, I'm like, holy crap, Like I was. We went forty minutes. I
didn't crap out for forty minutes. When I get in those spaces, it feels like I had a great run at the crab's table, and like I can't.
I can slightly.
Acknowledge it's happening, but I don't want to do it too much because then I'm gonna roll freaking seven right, right.
You're you're you're in the I think what happens is you're you're very, very present. And so when you're in that creative place where with the crabs table, you're so in the moment, there's a there's it's almost like a like a bubble, right, You just don't something's gonna you know, someone's gonna come along and pop the bubble. You just trying not to think about it.
The bubble's never live forever, No, but the bubble's pretty awesome to be in, and it's rare to get in it. So when you get in it, you really want to try to experience it without me having a complete inner monologue of why I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing, what's this experience going to end?
Is there ever gonna happen again? Yeah?
I run from that, Yeah, and just and just try to live in it. But dude, it's so cool to just see what you're doing.
Again.
I said that to you during the podcast, but then even after, like, I enjoy talking with you afterwards too because I was just like, hey, whatever you need, Like, I see what you're doing and keep doing it, and it sucks but so does everything else that's awesome. Like everything that's awesome sucks because it's supposed to suck or everybody will be doing it.
Yeah, it's hard, but it's rewarding.
Yeah, both and two things can be true. Yeah, it can suck and be awesome at the same time. Yeah, and sometimes not the exact same time. But sometimes things can suck until they get awesome, until they suck again, until they get awesome again. Yeah, and podcast is great. What have you learned from the podcast?
Mmm? I think I've learned a lot about how much everyone's journey is. When I think about all the twists and turns in mind, I feel like an alien a little bit, you know. I think I've always felt that way my whole life, Like I'm a little bit of an alien on the outside looking in. And so getting getting to hear other people's stories, you start to understand likes. That's kind of part of it, that's part of life.
I've learned a lot from that, and I've gained a lot of inspiration from hearing other people's stories.
Other people's stories have made me not feel as alone in my group of aliens. Yeah, there are there are other aliens, like me use the I'll use alien too. I didn't think there were. I didn't think there were and no other aliens exactly like me. But there are, there are other aliens like me. They go through the same struggles, mental struggles, uh, imposter syndrome struggles, totally success struggles, comparison struggles.
All of that's happening to all of us.
Yeah, but since we're not talking about it, we're not seeing It's very a much social media culture as well, right too. Like you cae only see the good stuff, you don't only see the bad, so then you think, well, my life's note as good as theirs.
Yeah, there's a there's a disconnect. I think that happens on sometimes can happen on social media where it does all look good, you know, And I think, uh, I think there's a real opportunity right now, just like we're having right now, for for for honest conversations and and authenticity and and I'm you know, I'm I'm obviously like trying to figure out figure it out as I go and just trying to figure out how how all of this stuff goes together, you know, And the beauteo is you will.
Never figure it out it doesn't go together probably, I mean, that's it. It doesn't go together and we'll never figure it out. But that's what that's what's about it. Before you came in, we talked about the podcast and what do you want to say about about your music that's coming out?
We talked a bit about it, but what do you want to say? I think I'm just I I have. We we went into it a little bit about that's why, and you know, doing all of that music independently allowed me a lot of latitude to with with income and resources to like create some stuff that I've always dreamed
about making. The podcast is one of those that that is an offshoot of of my successes as a recording artist, and I wanted to make the record that I've always wanted to make without any kind of, you know, stipulations on what it needed to sound like, or it needed to have this this hit or that hit or whatever. I just wanted to make something that that I've worked could work hard on and be very proud of and be excited to like put out into the world that I felt feel like is reflective of of of who
I am. You make any money on the podcast? Getting there, I had, I had a lot. I had. You really inspired me.
Actually, I actually asked you that question on your podcast here and.
I said, and I said, I think I said no, which was true.
But that's all I mean, it's it's impossible. But yes, that's why I asked. I really wanted to know.
Well, you told me. I don't know if you remember this. Uh, we were talking afterwards and you said, uh, you were telling me about cold emailing people. And I'm like, okay, well he's doing he's doing it. Why can't I like, I mean, I feel awkward, but I'm just going to do it. And I, yeah, I did. I literally just copied you. I I went on LinkedIn and I found some people that I thought might be a good fit.
And I and I did some combinations to figure out this company's email format of this person's names so that I could get into their inbox and uh, and it worked. It's crazy.
It's actually not crazy, but it's crazy. It's crazy because it's so simple. Yeah, and but it was awkward. It's but so was recording that song. So was recording your song after your single had been said, No, it was awkward to put the phone up and sing a song. Into a freaking camera. Yeah, and then it goes viral. Yeah. You just do it anyway. You do it when you're uncomfortable.
Dude.
I'm I'm a big fan, you know. I was looking forward to seeing you again. I'm rooting for you. I watched, you know, watch your stuff.
Yeah, thank you. It's pretty cool. I don't even know you as the artist. It's what's crazy.
That's it's weird because sometimes people will be like, I don't really they don't listen to the radio show though I've watched Idol.
For years or whatever it was. I'll know me for these weird things.
And I'm like, oh, I don't really think that that's funny. Is that disorienting at all? It's I wouldn't say disorienting. There's just no orientation to.
It at all. Yeah, to any of it. It's just all the.
It's all yeah, and it's awesome. It's great unless they try to stab you. Otherwise it's it's great. And I'm famous, so fractured mm hmm. Nobody's famous yet everybody's famous, and yeah, boy like and like you said, there's a chance for if you just do it enough. There are no gatekeepers
actual human form gatekeepers. There's an algorithm we can't figure out, but it's a different gatekeeper, but it's at least it's not one that is going to get you know, canceled for doing inappropriate things in an office, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just it's it's pulled out under beyond understanding algorithm.
Everybody has a chance though, yeah, and everybody didn't always have a chance, right, and everybody has a chance now.
Yeah, it's it's an exciting time. Well, I'm a big fan.
We put all your information down in the notes as well, and check out the podcast, and I'm going to go in what Nickelback song was that.
I want to horizon? Okay, check it out.
That's my favorite Nickelback song ever. I know I don't know what it is, but I wanna those do that. That's pretty cool.
I believe you when you said it you got a skill. There's no way I believe that.
But that's pretty cool to hear like somebody, like a familiar voice singing something that you created in your brain regardless.
That's cool. Yeah, Like the feeling of when I just press played the first time in the and the guitars are playing, that's cool. Yeah, it's crazy. It doesn't you know, it doesn't make sense, but but it did happen.
Check out ten Year Time podcast and everything else is down in the notes. Good to see you, Troy, and let's do this again soon, all
Right, Thank you for having me, Thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production