All right, break it down.
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy and Cat gotcha Covin locking No, brother, Ladies and folks, do you just follow Ann the spirit where it's all the front over real stuff to the chill stuff and the m but Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do it just.
You feel things.
This is feeling things with.
Amy and Kat.
Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things. I'm Amy and I'm Kat. And feeling of the day is annoyed because the question is, I mean, is there anyone we can trust anymore? And if so, how do we know we can trust them? Because I already feel like I had to let go of Jay Shetty and now Mel Robbins, so I need to know who we can trust.
Yeah, and I'm glad you're asking that question because you know what today.
Is the Mel Robin's Deep Dive.
It's our first official deep dive. So this is something we'll do from time to time. I'll do it with you and then you'll do it with me, and we'll take turns teaching each other something. And it can be about a person, a thing in pop culture, just a random idea we want to learn about and we're starting with Mel Robbins and her let them theory, and you are the teacher and I'm the teacher. I am the student, you are the student, and.
I was the biggest Mel Robins fan. And not saying that I'm not in general, I still follow I'll dabble. I like guess that she has on. I just have found myself increasingly bummed. I guess would be the feeling of like or just kind of this weird feeling okay, disappointed, could work or just confuse like it's it's more of a feeling like I don't even know that I've got the exact word other.
Than like ick, yeah an eh, I'm.
Getting it, just like sometimes I'm like eugh, I was reading her book. I have followed her for years and enjoyed a lot of her stuff. I have learned a lot from her. I've learned a lot from her guests. I have shared a lot of her information. I've regurgitated it on my own podcasts and quoting her, of course not as my own stuff, but it's someone that I was like, oh, we need to be paying attention to this person. And I do think that she is helping
in a certain way. But I know through your deep dive research you wouldn't necessarily define her as a helper, and I'm very curious as to why that is in what category we actually should put her in. But back to her latest book, I was trying to read it, and that's when the just really started to seep in because of the controversy around let them theory and where it originally came from. Because as an avid follower of hers, I know when I first saw her post about it, I remember being in my.
Closet, well, you're getting to have yourself.
Okay, I won't get ahead because I know you're the teacher, but I'm just letting you know. That's when, yeah, the and the unease started to set in. Yeah, because I couldn't even finish the book because that was a controversy
that gained a lot of attention online. There's a lot of podcasts about it, there's a lot of threads about it all over the place, and so you can do your own research into it, but it just gave me the the ick and I couldn't finish it, which then those articles and podcasts led me into more research, and then now I'm just.
Disenchanted. Yeah, that's a good word. She's somebody you or I know. This is how I felt. I want to like her. I want to like her so bad, but there's something also, yes, this disenchantment with that. You're like, oh, the screen has been lifted, like we see behind the curtain and we don't like what we see. And one thing that I kind of relate it back to is there was there was a job I had at one point in my life and it was like my dream job, Like I could not believe that I was chosen to
work there. And I started working there in this this very evident, like unethical thing was just running around the workplace. And this is in the mental health field. There's a bunch of therapists, so it's it was pretty black and white that it was unethical, but everybody knew about it. And that's what led me to quit because I said to my I loved my boss. I looked up to him so much. I thought he was very wise, and he wasn't like in charge of the thing that was unethical.
He was like stepped down. But I said to him, I said, I can't stay here anymore because I know about this, and you know about this, and we all know about this, and I'm not privy to a lot of the insider information, but you are. So if you're showing us this and it's that bad, what are you not showing us? And he didn't really say anything. He just was like, all right, get your stuff out here,
and then a lot of people quit too. And that's what kind of this feels like, is we know this is So we'll get into the what you're talking about. The controversy around her book. We all know about that. It is so obvious, there's proof, it's all the timelines, so that's there, and she's just acting like it doesn't exist.
I don't know how it has not been addressed on her end at all whatsoever. I am really that perplexes me.
So what we're going to look at is where she comes, where she comes from, like how did she get here? Who is she? And then we'll look at the book and I think there's some there's some criticism around just the book in general, and then this controversy which is also there at the same time, which since we're dancing
around it, I'll just say it. There's the main point of her book seems to be seems to be taken from a smaller, less known artist writer, and it's pretty evident and there's a lot of proof in it, but she's refusing to acknowledge.
It, which a simple acknowledgment. That's what so blows my mind crazy. She could still write the book totally and then just like credit this person, which even that both of them, even that girl which I'm sure you get into it, and I have her name and everything. I don't even remember her name, Cassie, Cassie, that's it. Okay, so Cassie, I think also the idea of let them. Who knows how many people before Cassie have even said okay, let them, Okay, let them. I saw a funny video
from some girl in New York the other day. She's like, you want me to give you the New York version of mel Robins let them theory.
She's like Ethelm, She's.
Like, someone does this to you, Yeah, someone does that to you.
Ef it Well, it just was. It was really funny. It made me laugh. But it's not revolutionary. Even Cassie.
Her poem, even poem, I get in trouble for how I say poem. I don't say it correctly.
I get it. Oh go I'm so used to you saying it like that, You're.
Used to me saying poem. Cassie's poem about let them it went viral, and I don't think Cassie would say that she's even with that viral poem poem, that she's the first person that's ever had this idea of let.
Them, you know, And yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah, it's wild, it's interesting. And I before we Cassie Phillips, yes that's her name, before we go deeper into this, I do want to say, I am just sharing you with what I have found, and I'm sharing a couple opinions I have made based on what I have found. But I really not trying to just like bash her.
I think if I was honest, what I really wanted to find is that she was what we want her to be because we all want somebody to look up to, we all want somebody to trust, We all are looking for somebody to guide us. And I discovered her or I first heard about her when she had her ted talk how to get people to stop screening you over or how there was something about screwing people over where I'm like twenty eleven and have you heard it.
Yeah, I've watched Okay, of course I had a big fan, big fan, but it was it was old, so yeah, I didn't know. If it's not how I discovered her, though, I think I first heard of her with her five second Rule and somewhere on Instagram she came up and I immediately started following her, and then of course I started high fiving myself in the Mirror.
Which was one of her books.
Yes, and then I would do the five four three two one Get out of Bed. And I liked all of her science back tips and tricks and hacks. I was a sucker for it all, and I still think that they could be helpful. I know that that's how I was exposed her. And then I think I went back and watched some of her viral YouTube stuff and her TED talks and stuff that put her on the map with a lot of people. And then I would
talk to you about her all the time. And I think it's worth noting that if people didn't gather from you working at that mental health place, that you're a licensed therapist, in case anybody's listening, that is new.
Yeah, and when I was on your fifth thing, you talked about her a lot, and I could take quiet because people probably are like, wait, you guys used to always talk about her, like we used to have a joke of like take a shot and once you were a say Mel Robbins, like, oh gosh, I forgot about that. So you talked about her all the time, and I went along with it because I know that I'm somebody who is very it's critical of the right word, it's very skeptical. I'm very skeptical.
Yeah, their standism, and I like in your blood yeah.
Which I don't love. Then I do at the same time, but I get sick of that part of me. So I'm like, Catherine, let her, let her, let her, like Mel Robbins, if she's helping her, let her help her, And that is I still believe that if if she's helping you, that's okay. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can take parts of this and also know when you need to like set a boundary for yourself or know when to say, okay, this makes sense, But I don't have to take all
of it at the same time. And so if you're listening, you're like, you guys used to talk about her all the time you are hypocrites kind of. But also we have more information now well, and that's part of it.
I think this is an example too of well critical thinking, which we've discussed previously, and then evolving and figuring out what works and what doesn't work. I mean, there are things that I would get from Mel that I would even try out myself and it just didn't sit right, Like it didn't feel right, like I in the mirror or.
You like, no, that worked. Now I kind of like that. I don't mind that so much.
And then you know, even the five second role, like I get the stuff behind it, but sometimes it's just like the simplest stuff that you need, sort of like drink water.
But how is she writing this is my question? How did she write a whole book on counting to five and let them like that could.
Be read the five second role?
So I'm not sure, Like that's an art that's near here and more there. So okay, we could talk about this forever. I could talk about this topic for five hours, So for the sake of time, shall we all right? So before we get into the juice, I did find this idea on a very credible website.
What's the website Reddit. Oh yeah, super credible.
And I was reading threads just of people's opinions on Melan, you know, leading me down a black hole, and somebody said this. I just thought I'd never heard this before. I thought it was interesting. The term is cruel optimism, and that shows up. It shows up, I think in a lot of her content, and specifically her book, but it shows up with a lot of self help content. And of course in the comment somebody was like, I'm not familiar. What is cruel optimism? And this is what
the person said. It comes from the philosopher Lorne Berlant and describes in a way, the sort of false hope attachments people are given which redirect them from changing their material reality. Most self help books provide a surface level false sense of solution which actually distracts people from making change in the material reality underlying their suffering. So essentially, it's what it's saying is it makes people feel better
about their circumstances without actually addressing the underlying issues. So it keeps them stuck, and it becomes a tool of actually reinforcing what's actually happening, and it works against them.
So would grow an actual work on yourself like deep dinner work. Then that's what leads to us the veil being lifted in us being like.
What yeah, I am I well, and that's I think following this person. Yeah. The criticism of the let them theory and like the five four three two one and all that stuff is when you're reading that stuff. I mean, I've had this feeling too, and I've read self help books. You're like, oh my gosh, highlighting it like this just makes so much sense. I'm going to do this. And then when you actually do those things, they don't change
anything about your life. They'll let them actually keeps you further away from actually addressing the issues that you have, creating boundaries for people in your life, having intentional conversation, confronting people, Like confronting people is part of real relationships. And so I just wanted to say that as we'll get back into it, but I thought it was just an interesting idea that it seems like and that's why
it's the cruel optimism. It seems like you're like, yes, this is going to change my life, but it keeps you exactly the same exactly.
It's sort of like you're just you're hopping onto this wheel and you don't ever get off unless you dig deeper. Yeah, but the tips are designed to keep you surface.
And I think that creates this the wheel. I like that idea. That's like coming back to that person. Right, So if I'm like I'm waiting for her next book, that's going to solve the next problem. And that's a marketing tactic like always leave, leave somebody needing the next thing. So like this book sets you up, it creates, it solves this problem, but it creates another problem. Somebody was talking to me about this, Hannah Ellis, she's an esthetician.
She was like, the beauty industry does that, so they'll create a product that solves this. Like back in the day, grapefruit scrub. It cleaned out your pores. Well, guess what it gave you dry skin? So then what was the next thing, morturizer. Yes, so it's the same idea. Okay. So I wanted to know when I started this, like where does mel come from? What's her background? What gives her the right to be saying these things? And I have to say she's very credited, like she has degrees.
She went to Dartmouth, Dartmouth, Dartmouth Dartmouth Dartmouth poem.
She went.
She went to Dartmouth's right, and then she went to Boston College for law school. So she is smart to be able to get into both of those schools. And she was a public defender. I think it was for a while. And then she moved to Michigan for her husband's schooling, I think business school or something. And when she did that, she wanted to change careers, which I would get that, like you want something different? Well, who
do you think she talked to about changing careers? Like, if you wanted to change careers, who would you call to help you figure out where you want to go?
Well, I mean I would just call a friend, Okay, I phone home. I don't know, like i'd call my sister. Who did she call?
She called a life coach.
Oh see, I don't.
I don't have one of those. But which maybe she started seeing a life coach and the life coach ended up saying like, and this comes from an article, I want to give credit where credit is due. This comes from an article by Rachel Baker, and it was in the Boston magazine in two thousand and seven, so this was before she got super big. So she went to
a life coach. The life coach was like, you should be doing what I'm doing, and Mel was like yeah, And so how do you think she learned to become a life coach.
From her life coach? So she was trained like the life coach saw something in her and was like, wow, you'd be really good at this. So then she decided show me your ways and like take me under your wing and then I'll spread my own.
Yeah. So she it says in that this article she trained for two years under this person by phone, email and an in person visits occasionally, like just training over email. I guess it was twenty and seven. Things were different back then. Probably wasn't Zoom, No, was their Skype? Maybe maybe? Okay, So then she became a life coach. So by two thousand and seven, so this is what eighteen years ago. How much do you think she was charging in two
thousand and seven? How much do you think she was charging in two thousand and seven for life coaching.
I'm just gonna guess five hundred an hour?
No, no, three fifty okay, but that's a lot like that, don't even charge that's double my rate as a therapist. So that's two thousand and seven. That's what blew my mind. Like, honestly, life coaches their rates are cucko these days.
And they're not they're not certified, Yeah, like I mean, I guess they if you could be training under somebody, but do I have to have training or a certificate?
No. You could to make yourself look credible, but there's no actual like you don't have to. I think that they're also I will say this, I think that there's a place for life coaches. I'm not against them when people stay in their lane and they do know like what they're actually coaching on somebody on. I think there's a time and a place for it. Do I think sometimes they charge too much? Yes, but there's not like a governing body of them.
So I would say an average therapist though, just that has schooling and all the credentials, which there is a difference between a therapist and a life coach. Yeah, but I would say most therapists are probably like what one hundred and fifty an hour.
Depends on where you live, Okay, I think in New York five hundred dollars wouldn't surprise me. In Naturville, you're gonna find between a licensed therapist, like one fifty to two fifty, and there's reasons why they would be higher and lower based on different trainings, certifications you have. And you said, it's the same thing, like therapists can also price gouge people. Yeah.
So it's like a bottle of water at the gas station and the bottle of water at the airport. The same bottle of water, you just charge more.
Yeah, so okay, that was shocking to me. So she became a life coach and then she had this syndicated radio show called make It Happen with Mel?
Was that on serious?
I think so? And now I was looking for if I could like listen to an old episode of or something, So I typed in like make it Happen with Mel, And now that just leads you to her website and she has like a two part online coaching program called make It Happen with Mel. I don't know how much she's charging though, because I didn't want to sign up for her email list.
She still has that business.
I mean, it's it was kind of hard if you didn't actually type in make it Happen with Mel. It was hard to find it on her website just by going through it, so she still does it, but I it looks like it's like a pre recorded coaching sessions, so who knows how much she could be charging for that, So she has that side business. So this also was very interesting to me. And this gets me into like my kind of thoughts and opinions on her. I think
she's a genius. I think she is so smart. I do think she has helped people, but I also think that again my opinion, she is a businesswoman, not a helper. The helping is like almost by accident or it's like this, like somehow this comes along sometimes to me. Her main goal is business, which also is like we live in a capitalist society, Like that makes sense. The way she markets herself, the way she uses words in storytelling to kind of rope you in and wrap you in is
incredible exhibit a her website. On her bio, she says, at forty one, I was unemployed, drowning in debt, and so overwhelmed that I could barely get out of bed. Then everything changed with one simple tool, the five second rule. It got me moving one small step at a time and led me here. Now fifteen years later, I host one of the world's biggest podcasts, and my books have
reached millions in over fifty languages. My work has changed billions of lives and can empower you to Does anything stick out to you?
Well, right now, my brain immediately goes to it's reminding me of how Rachel Hollis would market herself as someone that didn't even go to college and was just coming up with recipes in her like a stay at home mom.
Baking started from the bottom now or now.
Yes, like leaving out the part of like, well, okay, marrying a Disney executive, but that's a whole nother story in itself, which okay, we're not going to derail. But that's where my brain went of sometimes how you tell a story and how you spin it can change everything. And then your followers are like, oh, I didn't go to college. I just make recipes at home. I could be this person. I am in debt. I have failed at this, but now look at mel All I have to do is count down from five.
And also there's this essence of look how hard she works to get there too, and like if I just put in some hard work too, I can be there. And I did the math when she was forty one. It was like tw ten, twenty eleven. By that time, she was charging three hundred and fifty dollars for life coaching. She had a radio show, and she was on the brink of her ted talk, which really catapulted her.
Say what is she referring to?
She she wasn't unemployed. She was self employed. She self funded a lot of her endeavors, and that's why she says drowning in debt. But she would probably took out business loans to start this venture for herself.
Well, and then I think her husband had a restaurant business that was failing, so that would invested a lot. And so then there's that storyline of like all of our money was poured into this restaurant and it was going to fail. Okay, So she was employed, but by herself she wasn't.
Yeah, she wasn't unemployed. She was a life coach charging three hundred and fifty dollars an hour, and she was working with very high I mean she worked with a lot of big people and a lot she helped a lot of big companies. I think as well, well, I would.
Think charging that much back then you would have to be working with successful.
People and I wonder too, because you can only find so much information. If she really didn't work for a period of time, Let's say she stopped taking clients or something, how long was that and was that by choice? Like this, the way she wrote this, I just was like, you act like you were on the brink of bankruptcy and that you were living on the street. You probably were living in a very nice house. You probably never really
changed your lifestyle that drastic. So that's where I'm like, she is a genius.
And because it's not a lie.
It's not a lie, No, it's just the story is told differently and she leaves certain parts out and nobody's asking these questions to her. She's very calculated, calculated, very charismatic, and I just didn't buy that. And one of her big critiques that I read over and over was her arrogance. However, there's part of that that I think I was attracted to because she was so confident and she had the answer. But then at the same time, it's it, there has
to be a crack somewhere. She hasn't let any of that show, and when she does, I feel like even that is calculated. Like we were talking earlier when she shows that she's relatable, I'm like, is that story real or did you just tell that story in.
A way that would benefit you in the sense that she always has a relatable story, even with her guests that come on, which that's what I was drawn to as well. And I'm sure her story may be true.
Now I don't know. It might be.
True but not true, sort of like the first line of her bio on her website. I guess it just makes you wonder, which the whole reason behind doing this again is just so that you can decide if and how you're going to trust people, because there's a lot of people out there that are selling things and taking up a lot of our time and taking up a lot of our space. Yeah, and it's like, okay, then with this information, then you can start to kind.
Of who's taking that space up, take a.
Peek behind the curtain a little bit, and see if you want to keep going, and if you do, great, Because I guess I'm just reiterating it's not I don't want this to feel like a session at all. It's just interesting to look at it in that way, because I don't know I would read the first line of that, and I would be like, oh, interesting, now this could
happen to me. But because I know we're doing the steep dive and you're giving this information, my brain instantly went to other people I know that have now been exposed and have a reputation of presenting themselves as one way when it really was another.
Yeah, and I think we have to give it to her that she puts herself out there. Like in one of the articles I was reading, that was one of the things she was talking about. She was worried how people were going to perceive her. But that's the price you pay. But the price you pay for what? For fame or for money? For what was the goal? Was that the price you pay for wanting to reach more people and help more people, or to make more money. I don't have the answer to that, but I do.
This was just an interesting quote from that article by Rachel Baker. She said to her, for TV, you need to be relatable. The truth is I probably will never have a weight issue because I run, I'm a healthy eater, and I'm disciplined. That's a liability. My challenge is will they relate to me because I'm a mom and I'm from the Midwest, or will they brush me off because they think I'm too arrogant or too confident, or that my life is too perfect?
What even then, like I can't relate to that sentence at all. What's a right or that statement?
It just is the interesting thing to say to somebody that's interviewing you for an article. You know that's going to be an immagazine, Yes, that people around you are going to read. And I think that is It's just her personality is interesting. I would never say that about myself. Also, like I run and I'm a healthy eater too, But it doesn't mean that I'm never gonna have it. Was just it doesn't mean I'm never gonna have a weight issue. Like she just has this skewed sense of reality or
sense a view of self. She's very privileged, and I think that as we move into some of the critique about her theory, she is very privileged, and that I don't think is ever really acknowledged that she is able to do X because she can do this and when we are privileged and then we like sell this idea that I use the five four three two one and change my life and now I'm a millionaire, and so can you like, you have to acknowledge both because you're
setting people up to either always come back and depend on you or to be manipulated. Okay, would you rather go into the critiques of the actual theory itself or do you want to go into the platiarism controversy.
We can start with the critiques and then we'll get into the Okay, platiarism.
So Therapy for Women is an account on Instagram that I really love. She has a podcast and we listen to her podcast. Her podcast is called Need for Nuance and it's two therapists and they talked about when this first came out, what was some of the nuance that was not mentioned in it? And so she put a carousel on Instagram, and I'm going to read some of the stuff that she talked about because I agree with most, if not all, of it, and then we can add
our own thoughts as well. But the first one she said why she disagreed with the let them theory, which we haven't said what the let them theory is? Do you want to explain it? Well?
Is there a official definition for mel but in a nutshell, which, of course, when it first came out. I was saying it all the time. I'm pretty sure, like.
Even on the Bobby Bomb Show.
I mean we talked about on the podcast, but on a national radio show, I was like, oh, you know, Bobby, you need to do like Mel Robbins and just let them. So when I first heard Mel talk about it, she was just doing a selfie style video, and I think the example she gave is, like you know, she goes, I just heard about this, you know idea or theory called let them and you know, if your friends are gonna go to lunch without you and not invite you,
let them. Like it was sort of presented like that as like this, don't let it take up space in your brain and let it loop and run you ragged, Like just let them and move on with your day let them.
Versus share with them that it hurt your feelings and that you want to be included. Yeah.
That, No, I don't remember that. I just feel like that was what stuck with me from when I saw it. How she gave other examples, and I do see how that could be beneficial if it is working you up in a way where like if you don't have all the facts, like similar to like not making up a story that you don't know to be true, which I guess you could ask your friends about, like, hey, did something happen? I guess you all went to lunch. The
whole lunch thing. That probably stuck with me because I think I've had moments where I've had friends doing something and I felt left out, and so I felt like, oh, Okay, I can just let them, And I do see how that could come in handy if you if you're not trying to be dramatic, you don't need to say anything because like, what if there was a reason you weren't invited that you don't need to know about, or it
really doesn't matter. You can just let them. But I just know bigger situations and scenarios in life where let them just isn't.
Going to work.
Yeah, but I think Mel even addresses that some right Eventually.
I didn't finish the book. So this also reminded me of that other podcast that we listen to. It was Are You Up? Was the dating dating one? So she did her podcast tour for her book, and it was interesting that she was even on that podcast because it was about dating and so they were trying to get her to relate it to the dating scenarios, and I think that the hosts were being real realistic, like, Okay, we get she's saying like if somebody doesn't, oh my gosh, do you listen to that?
Right?
If you guys want to entertain yourself, listen to the first five minutes because she is so aggressive, and she was like, I'm going to tell you what's wrong with your dating life, and the problem is you there's a way, and there's a nuance, and there's just a finesse to sharing information when somebody's getting in their own way that most people are not going to listen to. They're going to Okay, you're mean, I feel attacked now I'm defensive.
So that's just not a from a honestly from a helping standpoint, that's not the way to help somebody.
Was that more of her life coach vibes like do you think thanks? People were paying three point fifty yeah, plus a session like that that's the version she was getting of, like, well, I don't.
Give a f what you think.
Like there was somewhere in that episode they asked a question about what a listener might be feeling, and she's not.
My effing problem.
Yeah, well they're not my effing problem. And I was like, oh, ouch, Like yeah, it did not feel like a helper, yeah at all.
I think they asked like if if somebody who's listening to this is having a hard time grasping this concept that like if somebody doesn't want to date, you just let them, or if somebody doesn't answer your text, just let them. If somebody doesn't blah blah blah blah, let them. They were like, we grasp the idea, but for somebody who isn't able to just like grab that when they really feelings are involved, when they like somebody, when they want to know what they did wrong, like how do
you get them to like get there? They were like valid question, like what's the route? And she was like if they don't want to get there, that's not my effing problem, or if they can't grasp this, it's they're not my effing problem. And I just was like, well, I mean, you're you're saying that you're trying to help them, so you're making them your problem and that you have the solution, and if they don't like your solution, then you're like f off.
It felt very aggressive and I remember my brain instantly thinking like, oh, would she have talked this way on Oprah's podcast?
And maybe she did.
I don't know, because I was already disenchanted with her by the time she went on Oprah, so I didn't even watch or listen to the full thing. I just saw clips online. But I wondered if her demeanor was the same with Oprah as it was with them, because she was very, very, very aggressive. I was confused by yeah, and you can side of her. You can be I think, confident and strong. And again, one thing that drew me to her in the beginning is she had this like
you just wanted to believe her. She just she believed what she was saying, so you want to believe it. And I, as a early therapist, was struggling with my confidence and how to show up. One of my mentors actually told me one time. They were like, you need to harness your inner bitch, and I was like, I can't do that.
But then I saw mel Robinson, I was like, I can be like her. It was like I got drawn in. But then that feels very different, the confidence than what she was showing on that podcast. It almost felt like she didn't like that. People were kind of poking holes of saying like, well, we need more because she didn't have the answer to that, right, So the critique said the women from Therapy for Women had We're going to just talk about each one.
There's five.
The first one is it can be an excuse. The first one is it can be an excuse. So so to avoid hard conversations or learn how to compromise. There's a difference between letting someone go versus using let them to avoid necessary conversations in long term relationships. I would have loved this five ten years ago, last year even like to be able to just like let them. I'm not gonna confront that. It's actually, i think, creating more
distance in your relationships than actually helping you. So number two is it's marketed as a one size fits all solution. When you try to apply a one size fits all solution and it doesn't work, the message becomes if this doesn't work for you, you're the problem.
Hmmm, which is sort of her was her demeanor on that podcast, Yes okay.
Which she probably would double down on, like you don't want it bad enough, or you're stuck and you're not listening or something like that number three. It can create shame if saying let them doesn't work or feels unhelpful. Change is messy, it's nonlinear, and it takes time. It's not something you can fix with a simple catchphrase. And I think that's something that I have feelings about, where like I love catchphrases like that, like the waight to worry,
Like I like the idea of let them. I have some of those slow equals fast is one that I use in my office a lot, but those I'm not writing.
And it's about yeah, no, like we didn't, we didn't just and.
We're not applying that to every situation, right.
We think they can come in handy. They're a tool to keep in your back pocket.
But that wouldn't sell if she was like, I have a tool that sometimes could work for you in certain situations and sometimes might not make any sense. Who's behind that like that? I think that's the problem with That's what I run into issues with a lot of like the self help gurus, a lot of the Jay Shetties of the world, a lot of the mel Robin of the world, is that to sell something, you have to create this like mph about it, and most of the reality of therapy. I mean we say this all the time.
Remember when we did that little game when you asked me about the different anxiety tools and now was like, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Well, I asked you to rate them on a scale of one to ten because a lot of therapists were doing it online and it was super cute, and they would just give a direct number. They'd be like waited blankets five, coal plunges seven, journaling nine, therapy tit like you were like, every time you try to answer, you're like, well, it depends, which is so true. It does depend, Like there is no blanketing number that will work for everybody.
For some people, journaling is absolutely going to be a nine or a ten, and then for somebody else it's going to be a one.
Well, guess what that reel that we made with that didn't go viral and that's probably want it's not that interesting, Like that's the reality of you'll help and real therapy is it's like not that interesting. Sometimes it's like not that sexy. Yes, which the let them theory, Oh my gosh, if the way she actually well, actually I'm gonna read chain and just gave us her website definition of let
them theory. The let them theory is a step by step guide on how to stop letting other people's opinions, drama, and judgment impact your life. Two simple words, let them will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you. It's time to build a life where you come first, your dreams, your goals, your happiness.
Like, okay, I want that, but okay, and it says I'm going to reiterate two simple words, let them will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you.
Versus come to therapy and maybe we might be able to find some help for you to feel better sometimes.
But that is a bold claim. Yeah, two words that are going to set you free.
Yeah. And I think the other thing is like, you can't. She gotta be sued for false advertising, because again, if it doesn't work, it's your fault. It's not because there's something wrong with my theory. It's that you're not doing the things that you're supposed to do. You're not buying into it, or you're whatever. Anyway, next one number four. It doesn't address the root cause of issues, which I
think we've kind of talked about. Shouting let them at someone who is in an abusive relationship or has trauma is unhelpful. That is a big one.
Yeah, I do feel like in fairness though, I believe mel again, you didn't finish the book, but this can't apply to if you're in an abusive relationship. There's no way she would be like, well, let them.
I haven't read the book either. And there is a second part where it's like let me.
Which also is plagiarized from from the same person, Cassie Fast. Okay, well, I'm excited to get to the plagiarized part because then don't want to talk about the prom part, because there was no problem in the original video. Yeah, there was only like the example of like your friends going to lunch without.
You, the receipts don't match up. That's right, There is receipts. Right, there are receipts. The last critique of this, which is what we're getting into, is it was plagiarized. The original concept came from a poem called let Them by Cassie Phillips about setting boundaries with people who don't value you while remaining open to those who do so shall we
we shall. I will also say, on top of all that, which is a thing with a lot of self help stuff too is and a lot of the stuff with Jay Shetty is like these repackaging things that already exist. She's repackaging one, this poem that already exists. But the let them theory is somewhat like radical acceptance to which we've talked about on here, which is part of DBT, which is a part of a therapy that's already been created.
I wonder if she addresses that, I don't know in the book. Probably not, she'd be giving credit to something else.
I don't think she probably does, because one and then it's she also says that she discovered this. She doesn't say she created it. She says over and over, I discovered.
This theory from her daughter, right, So, but that's not true.
Well, you know, we're gonna get into that.
Yeah, But that's the part where I'm like, well, it's my mind.
And a lot of the way she's talking about it, and a lot of her press she says, I discovered it. I discovered I discovered it, like I came upon this thing, not I created it, And I think that's her way of gatting around it. So I want you to tell your story, because you heard about this before me, and then you started kind of putting the dots together. And then I found some of this on the internet and I was like, look, it's true, so you tell me.
So back to my closet. I'm just scrolling Instagram or I do it.
Oh we were locked in your closet.
No, I was just it's just where I was in my house. Like you'd never hang out in your closet.
A clause is not that big. I wasn't locked in it.
No, I guess I would just sit in there sometimes when my bathroom was like all connected. But I remember that's exactly where I was. And the video hadn't even gone viral yet. It just was a video that popped up. And then later I kept seeing it. I was like, oh, this really popped off, like this is now blown up. And I think even for mel she saw that and she was like, oh there's something here, there's something to this.
People are loving this. Let them theory. And I'm sure with her genius brain, she's like, I better take this momentum and let's go. Let's create a whole movement, a book, all the things. So I do know that I saw her kind of she was just she made a selfie style video. It seemed like she was maybe out on her porch or something, and she was like, Hey, I gotta tell y'all, I just learned about this idea of
let them. And I don't remember all the examples that she gave, but I do remember she did not talk about prom with her daughter, mentioning it to her, which in the book when the little parts that I did read in the things that I know about her promotion around it is that it came to her through her daughter.
When they were sending her son off to prom.
He hadn't put a lot of thought into it, kind of decided to go last minute, and she, as the mom, was really frustrated, like the weather was bad. They were just going to go to some taco truck and she's like, we should really be making reservations and it's going to write and like she was just as a mom, Like I'm paraphrasing obviously, and that at one point during it all, her daughter it was like, Mom, let them, it's his prom Let them if they want.
To go to a taco truck.
Let them if they want to do this, let them and that at that moment, Mel was like, you're right, and then the story went from there. But that's not where it started because I remember when she first posted about it and she didn't say anything about her daughter or prom. And then since then too, the sluthor's online or whatever you call them, tons of people have collected the receipts and done the research and.
The timeline they had.
They put the original Mel video before prom so like that, you have the timeline, Okay.
Yeah, and I have the video too. It's still there, so you guys can go fact check this. So what's I have the timeline that a woman named Sage Justice. She has a substat called Sage Words. She created a whole timeline on this in a couple articles. I think really to give help give Cassie a voice and help
get her the credit where credit was due. And I want to say before I go into this, that's the problem, not that she took somebody else's poem and then created a book about it, because she could have done that in the right way. And what is that Picasso quote? That's like good artists borrow great artist steel like we're all taking information from other people and creating new things. That's fine. She could have done that and put Cassie's poem in the beginning of the book as like a prologue.
That would have been so cool for Cassie and for Mel. So my issue is it would have been so easy to lift this woman up, versus she's acting like it never happened.
This entire scenario was the downfall of my relationship with Mel. I was still on board and very much a fan. This situation with Cassie is what lifted the veil the tiniest bit, and then the veil got fully lifted and I could not even finish the book. Yeah, and my sister knew I wanted that book, and before my sister pre ordered it, I think she pre ordered like six of them.
And my sister and I would call and we would talk about mel roblems.
We'd exchange like instagrams, like I'd text her this or texted that, Oh, we'll go see what Mel said here. Yes, like I was a fan, like this just really bums me out, Like I'm like, it yucked your yum it, this really yucks my youm because dang it, I was excited to read the book, and then I wasn't, and then I sent it. I donated it to goodwill, so somebody else canna have it. Somebody else could have it if they want it, and maybe they need it and it'd be perfect for them at whatever season of life
that they're in. But the season I'm in, it just seemed very if and it was not cool.
And then it was not cool, mel, this is not cool. I just felt bummed like I'd been duped because you were duped. That's the feeling, and that feeling is so maddening. Oh that's why I'm so skeptical. So let me read you the timeline. Also, we got the quote it's good artist copy, great artists steel, so it's okay to take Also like she could have because they're really is if
we think about it, there's nobody has original thoughts. However, this could have been a really cool opportunity to help somebody.
And we're all inspired by so many people, like yeah, bring her alongside, like I don't know why it had to be the prom story versus a poem, right, and then also even with her daughter, what really me? Okay, sorry, I had a pre ordered copy, so I have the og which you can say that sorry, you're the teacher. You're the teacher. I didn't know what all you had prepared.
Well, I'm just going to read this thing and then you tell I know you're about to say. Okay, else we'll never get to the timeline. Okay, time, Okay, the timeline. So in twenty nineteen, Cassie Phillips writes the poem let Them. September twenty twenty two, the poem let Them by Cassie Phillips goes viral. October twenty twenty two, the poem let You by Cassie Phillips goes viral. Oh well, so in Mel's book, though, the other part is let me, good job mail. That one's on you. Okay, I think I didn't.
I think that's right. I didn't get to that part of the book. But in May thirteenth, twenty twenty three, Mel Robbins makes viral TikTok sharing the discovery of let Them.
That's kind of cool to know that on May thirteenth, twenty twenty three, I was in my closet based on that information that I know.
That nowhere was yeah, May twentieth, May twentieth, which comes after the thirteenth, twenty twenty three, the prom where Mel claims the origin story of her discovery.
Happened so seven days later.
Yeah, it's weird how time works that way. Also, I feel like I saw somewhere and somebody can fact check me on this, because I don't have it written down right now. I think she interacted with Cassie's poem at some point.
Well, all I know is earlier this year, when I was trying to read the book and I was starting to get perturbed because of this Cassie business. I did see that Cassie had posted somewhere some interactions with her, and.
Mel can't say she doesn't know this person exists. May twenty twenty four. This is interesting. Mel Robins files to trademark the phrase let Them September. October twenty twenty four, Meil Robins announced she wrote a let Them book. December twenty twenty four, she publishes the book that let Them there, and she was not able to get the trademark for whatever she was trademarking it for, because you can't just trademark a random thing that you don't have, No, like,
I can't trademark. What's up, guys? I have no like content or anything that comes around that.
Well, she is it because she filed for the trademark before she had the books, because if she had the book, then she could file for the trademark and say that that's like because I don't know the only thing I've ever filed for is under like the podcast and then clothing apparel, and you have to have a created product and be using it and selling it.
Well, so she tried to trademark for because if you look on like Etsy and stuff, there's tons of stuff that creators and artists and stuff make that says let them.
Maybe it was too generic.
I think it was too that was it was like too generic. She can probably trademark the let them theory now, but you can't just trademark that because then all also doing that puts all those people that already that are already creating that content out of business, Like that hurts these little people.
Well, if she were to obtain the trademark and she chose to take action on the little people, then it would impact them if she let them, she let them just do it. She could be like, let them, let them keep using it, yes, because that's really when you're only gonna get impacted is if someone decides to pursue legal action. Getch you like, the government's not gonna say anything, But she could. She found that.
This is sort of what I was trying to say.
Yes, it is possible to trademark a phrase or a slogan, but it must be used to identify goods or services and be distinctive enough to function as a trademark. To trademark a phrase, it needs to be more than just a common saying. It should be used to distinguish your brand and its offerings in the marketplace.
But if she had.
Clothing with it on there, or the book or different things where she's using it and it's tied to her, then she could.
She could. Before you say the other thing that I was like, don't say that yet, I found that Cassie, the original girl that wrote this poem, she credited the idea or their inspiration from her poem to the Medea video. Do you know who media is like the Tyler Tyler Perry?
Of course I know Medea Hallelujah.
She has a viral YouTube video which we can post the link because it's interesting and it's called let Them Go, and in it she says, if somebody wants to walk out of your life, let them go. So that inspired her poem and I'm like that right, there is all you had to do. Like, just like Cassie was like, oh this thing inspired this. It doesn't take away from her poem. It was like, Oh, that's cool to know the story of where that came from, the same thing Mel could have done.
But I guess she felt like crediting her daughter. Oh yes, which I feel like if I was her daughter, I might be like, Mom, I saw you post a video seven days ago talking about let them and then yeah, I said that to you for the problem. Like me, her daughter did say that.
But then her daughter doesn't have as much power as her mom.
Well obviously not, because that was what I was trying to say earlier, was that her daughter worked with her mom on this book side by side. They posted about it multiple times. I don't even know, like.
A year of research.
They acted like they were sitting at the kitchen table just day and night, working on this project together. And then her name was not on the book. Yeah, that really crazy through me. But then you told me on later editions because I had a pre order copy that when it was reprinted or the new books were printed that her daughter was added in smaller, smaller font font.
On International Women's Day and this is my thing about Like she's like, oh, what a gift. Yes, she made this announcement, like I'm doing this thing for my daughter, And I'm like, no, you're just putting the other author's name on the book that should have already been there. You should have put her a long time ago.
It doesn't make sense you didn't include her, especially if she's the entire inspiration for the thing.
But what a way to spin that of like oh, I just was waiting to do this as a International Women's Day to support women, like versus being like, yeah, I was kind of narcissistic and I didn't put my daughter's name on it. That was a mistake. I should change it. So this is all leads me to like the kind of wrap up of mine.
Like how does that conversation go, Like I'm honestly trying to picture it, Like does she like I know you've been by my side and you're the one that told me about this let them theory? Like remember remember when when your brother was going to prom and you were like, mom, let them let them go to the taco truck. And then we were like, oh, let's write a book. And then you sat by my side and we did all the research and we worked on it together. You know
how we've done that. But I just been letting you know that only my name is going to be on the book. So thank you for everything inspiring this entire thing, but only my name. Like how does she even say that? Like how do you say that? And you know what, if you, if you have any thoughts or feelings about this, I need you to just you know, go high five yourself.
In the mirror and kind down.
Let them.
Mom, just give yourself a five, four three two one some water. High five yourself in the mirror and then say let them.
Like is that what you tell your daughter? But that's the crazy thing is like the theory would say that the daughter should say.
Let them, Yeah, let them.
Can't do anything about it. She doesn't want to give you credit for these hours and hours and hours and hours of work that you put into this project that's gonna make her millions of dollars.
Let them, let them. If someone's gonna take your idea, I mean, because really this is the mom. Okay, she took it from Cassie or whatever. She was inspired and Cassie got it from Medea.
A fictional character. I love Medea.
My mom loved media movies. Every time there was an Adia movie, my mom was watching it. Yes, like always have a special place in my heart, which Tyler Perry is speaking of, like who can we trust anymore? He was in the news recently of stuff, and I'm like, please don't let that be true. Please don't let that be true. Maybe it is, and if it is, to the victim, like I will now have to be like, ugh, Tyler Perry, you suck. I don't know, because claims can
be made and I don't know. I haven't followed up the details there, but I'm like, dang it, I don't like reports like that, but thankfully truth should come out. So I do like reports like that, But you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, And I think that these situations, whether it's Tyler Perry, Mel Robbins, Rachel Hollis, whatever, when we find the cracks in the like too good to be true stories of these people that we're looking up to or that we're gaining insight from where we're learning from, we're not able to like get the what's the cart before the horse, Like, we're not able to know the information until we know it.
So I think the glimmer in this whole conversation is that you are allowed to change your mind at any point, like when you find more information about somebody that leads you to say like, oh, I don't think they had my best interest at heart. You're allowed to change your
mind about how you feel about them. And I think you're a perfect We both are perfect examples because I once loved her too, and the more we learned, the more we were like, oh, I don't know that I'm going to take everything with the same weight as I
once took from her. I'm going to think more. So we came up with some things to look for or ask yourself when you are looking to somebody, whether it's a boss, a friend, a mentor, a famous person, a self help person, a therapist, a teacher, there are some things to ask yourself that might help you not get too far in before you see kind.
Of the light.
But these are the questions that we came up with whenever I was paying money to a face fitness person.
They're not the same, they're similar that's not exactly the same, but those are all that's how to spot a scammer. Oh so they're similar, They're very similar. Yeah, well, and.
It makes me think of even Tony Robbins backstory, which I know this isn't a deep dive on him, and I don't know the full thing, but in Mel's first line of her bio sentence, like, Tony's story is this whole you know, grew up very poor, single mom. Like he feeds a lot of people now, like millions, maybe even dare I say billions. I feel like he's put out an astronomical number of like meals that he has provided for people. And you know, it goes back to this story of how he was helped as a child,
And then I'm like, I hope he was. I'm sure he was, but it seems like a lot of people follow him. I once thought about going to one of his conferences. Well, but I would have to pay a lot of money to go and then have him yell at me to walk on coal. But I think that'd be cool.
I feel like I just went so many places with you. I feel like, also though the Rags to Riches is so like I'm drawn to that, like, again, if they can do it, we can do it, So we can add that to it.
Oprah.
Oh yeah, Oprah. There's some cracks an Oprah story too. Don't tell me.
I don't want to know.
Crowdcat's like mm hmmm.
Maybe later we could do it. We could do an Oprah deep dive. But she's someone that definitely did not have privilege, that's for sure.
Yes, yeah, I think Mel had a lot more privilege than Oprah. Did You can say that, well, yeah, I mean Mel is never going to get fat. She runs and she eats healthy. I can't believe she said that.
And I know I derailed us with the whole Tony Robbins thing, but it just made me think of people that I am drawn to at times because of their story and then their charismatic behavior, and that I would pay money to go to one of their events because I think it would be cool and the energy there would be awesome, Like.
A Rachel Hollis's conference before her downfall.
Yeah, I'm sure that those were really exciting and fun and fun and like you felt like this community and connection. So that's why I think it's important that I particularly pay attention to these signs or these poverment.
What do you have? Questions? Questions that we need to ask. Yeah, okay, so five questions. Keep it short and simple. One is it too good to be true? If it's all encompassing, you might want to do a little bit more digging. Two do their actions match their words? I mean, are they practicing what they're preaching?
And this is how we can know if we can trust somebody. These are the questions we're going to ask ourselves. Okay, is it too good to be true? Do their actions match their words?
Three? How do they handle critique and accountability?
So you have to really like dive deep into that if you don't have a relationship with this person, because like, even for seeing how Mel handled some critique, we had to go listen to all these other yeah, but the podcasts, but maybe it would maybe once you see it, you may even notice sit in her own everywhere.
Okay. I think that's the other thing is I think you're experiencing once the veil is lifted, you see it everywhere because those are now the lenses that you're looking through versus the rose colored glasses that like, she can do no wrong and she's so nice and she wants to help, BUTZ like, no, she's a businesswoman and she wants you to buy.
Her book and she's a genius.
Yeah, she's pretty smart. Number four, do they show humility or just authority? This one is tricky because I think mel shows her humility in a an authentic way, but really she wants to she wants she wants to feel like she's just like us, but in other areas she wants us to not be able to relate to her.
Yeah, it's manufactured humility, it's am.
And then the last one, number five, what do they gain from your trust? Are they guiding, helping, or just selling? So are they guiding you or are they helping you
or they just selling a product? And I think that's one that you can go back to what we talked about in the beginning, is in with marketing, Like they're always supposed to leave you wanting one more thing, and if they're solving this problem, to create this problem, to then solve this other problem for you, if you continue to need, need, need, There's a difference in wanting, like I want to listen to certain podcasts, I want to
read certain authors books. They're fun, they're entertaining, I gained something from them, but I don't feel tied to them, Like if they stopped their podcast, I would die. If they never wrote another book, I don't know what I would do, Like I can't go to anybody else for that type of help, guidance or entertainment. That's I think where you're like, well, and.
I'm thinking about you as a therapist, and I would think that your goal would be eventually for your client to spread their wings and do whatever. I mean, therapy can be on and off. Doesn't mean like if you have a client that's coming in and just constantly needing you all the time, you may wonder I'm not doing my job.
Yeah, And I think there's again a difference in therapy where there's yeah, the goal.
Because you have a living to make too, and I think helpers need to make money. So I guess I'm trying to also have some discernment around how can you tell if a helper who also is trying to make a living is just selling, because like you could maybe I'm sure there are some therapists actually that do it or guides in whatever way that just keep what they don't care if their client gets any help. Date as long as they're coming and writing a check.
Yeah, that definitely exists. I think there's also in therapy a difference in because a lot of times I'll see clients and I might see in them every week for two years, and then they'll go to every other week, and then they'll go to once a month, and then randomly they'll come back and they're like, I have this issue? Can I come back for weekly sessions? And it shifts. There's also clients that just like going to weekly therapy, but they know that they don't need to come. It's
they're actively making that choice. And I think that's the difference of like that feeling of well, if you go on vacation, what will I do? Versus Okay, I'll see you next week, but I'll be looking forward to it, you know, like our job, yes, is to work ourselves out of a job, if that makes sense.
Yeah, But lucky for you, there's always going to be messed up, broken people because.
We have to pick up the pieces of Mel Robbins. So I love that was both entertaining and fun, and I hope it helps people again have their own discernment and so then they can be in charge. Like I like having agency over what I pay, like what I buy, what I pay attention to, what I listen to, and know what I give my time to. Yeah.
Yeah, because if I'm going to be watching somebody's videos or reading their books, yeah, and then trusting your gut and listening to it. Like when I knew it was like, wait, why am I reading this? I have to put this down? And I have zero interest in picking back up, which was shocking to me because I was really excited to read it. But anyway, let them let us. If people didn't like this episode, let them.
If people don't like us them, let them. If you want to feedback here just kidding, we actually love If you want to leave a bad review, don't just email us. I think you and I both we've said this before. We're open to feedback and critique whatever you want to send our way. I think it would be helpful if you just send it to us so we can work through it. Like, does it have to be on a public platform? No, I don't think I say that. I don't know. I think no.
Mel would be like, send this episode to everybody in your family that needs to hear good lives. It's going to change their lives, which I've admitted to even in some of our titles at times like oh and it's not just mel there's tons of podcasters that do it that kind of just hook you with the title of like you need to do this every day or you're going to die. And I'm like, Okay, yeah, we're going
to give that a go. And we've tried that, and we have not tried that, not that exact same is there's a little hyperbole there, but I just wanted to put emphasis on that we've given that a go, and it didn't feel authentic to us, like even we were just starting the rebrand, which has only been a few months now, like there are some titles in there where we were playing around with that and then I was like, eh, well, you know.
That's the cool marketing I think is what you have to think about, Like there's you have to be able to market yourself. Again, we live in a capitalist society, so we do need to like make money and we're self employed or I am, so like.
Oh no, I don't know about you. I'm I'm unemployed and on the brink of big brank crafcy, but I'm working on something. I'll let you know, and I have it all figured put together and I'll sell it to you.
But I think that that is something that you can do. But as you see with other creators and other helpers, you come to a point. I've had this in my own business. If like, you come to a point where you can choose making money or you can choose the ethics of what you're doing. And sometimes that decision is really hard, and sometimes you make the wrong one, and sometimes you make the right one. People like Brene Brown. We've talked about her a lot, not today but in conversations.
Not already likes her. I love her, but there's a way that she does what she does that keeps her from reaching the masses that some other people have reached. And I think part of that is her tie to what she really believes and what she really wants, and that doesn't sell as well. So I think that's worth sacrificing. Yeah, if we do these things, we might get viral faster and more people will listen to our podcast and we'll make more money. Sure, but is that worth having to
do it that way? Or do we rather have the slow burn? But then we feel okay about it? Yeah, slow burning we're slow burning. So no, I love our community. I mean, I know you do too, but I'm just saying I don't think either one of us all so it's chasing. I also like, don't I don't think we wake up every day of like I think we want people to download or listen, but that's not my number one goal in life, Like I think there are other things. I don't want to be that big. That's terrifying to me.
I don't like I like. I like walking down the street nobody knowing who I am. And maybe for other people would be the same way.
I don't know.
I can't speak for them, but I think for you and I, if our careers would change or we win a totally different trajectory like we would be okay. And some people it's like, no, this is exactly what I want to do. And don't get me wrong, I would love for us to do some live shows again, because when I do those and I get on stage, I'm like I was born for this. That's how I feel when I walk out on stage, like I love it. I think it's just connecting with people and like seeing
them there. But it doesn't have to be you know, thousands people. It could be three hundred people in a room, and we've done that before, six hundred people in a room, and it still feels intimate. And I think it's just connecting with our people. So anyway, I do have that
feeling of like I was born for this. And I also could move to Montana and make protein bars out of my kitchen, you know, and not never get on social media again, and never be in front of a microphone again, and I would be Okay, we just need to do the occasional live show so I could get on stage.
Feel the brush. Okay. Well, if you guys have feedback or questions or thoughts that you had while you listened to this episode, you can send them to us. Hey, they're at Feeling Things podcast dot com. You can also send us questions for couch Talks, where we answer your questions on Wednesdays. You can Thursdays. It is Thursdays. Thank you. You can rate and review us and watch us on YouTube. Yeah five stars only thanks, it's kidding. Only rate us
if you're gonna give us five starts. If not, just keep going.
No, just email us. That was my whole point. It's like, give us your criticism, but have to be public. But I think some people thrive off of like three stars, four and a half.
They thrive off of giving that they get a N star. Yeah, A sucks, but hey, you know what, let them let them. And with that being said, have the Day you.
Need to have?
Should we do a book? Have the Day you need to have? A whole book on it? That sounds like a children's book. No? No, don't you think I think we could market it? If we market it?
Right, Have the Day you need to have?
It'll save your It'll change your life. And in seven words?
Where was her?
Better than two words?
I was trying to scroll back to wherever the definition of okay? How many words was it?
Seven?
Seven simple words? Have the day you need to have will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you.
That actually sounds pretty good.
Okay, Bye bye
Z