Wesley Schultz

As much as we start to blend time on the road and then recording, it seems like it there's never like a pause to take a breath, So it was kind of, in a weird way, suite to take a minute and regroup and just get ready for about two years on the road. But I don't I wish I had a better answer. I've been told that the things take time to organize and behind the scenes.

our song was nowhere to be had. You couldn't get it anywhere. It was like the worst If you were trying to blow up, this would be like the worst plan. And so the only place you could find our song was on a site called day Trotter. It's this place outside Chicago where you drive out as a band and you'd record versions of your songs live. So that's the only place people found it. So we shot up I think the like second all time and like day Trotter

at the time. But at that point Majors and Indy started approaching us and offering us potential deals, and none of the deals were very good, especially from the major side, and it was a lot of like multi year deals, three to five record deals, and we just wanted a one record deal. We wanted to know whoever worked with us would want to do well like we wanted to do well, and we actually gave the right of first refusal at the time to Daniel Glass. We really wanted

Daniel Glass to do this record. He had worked with Phoenix and Mumford and Sons and among other bands, and we thought, well, if he could do it with pretty different bands that aren't sort of on the traditional path per se, maybe he could do it with us. And he came to our show at the Mercury Lounge and he passed on it. He was like, I'm good, no thanks, but I wish you guys all the luck in the world.

And so we ended up going with Dualtone, who at the time I think they had Brett Dennen as one of their artists, but he was on the way out. He was heading somewhere else. So it's kind of like, man, I guess it was the only fair deal that was being offered, so we took the fair deal and we could own our own music and you know, keep it all like in house and do one record deal. So we ended up doing that.

I think front of us money to do that. It was like ten grand to record the album, and then it was and then we ended up scrapping the whole mix of the album because we didn't like what the original producer had done with it. So then we took it to Sound City and Kevin Agunis remixed the whole thing from scratch, and I think we then double the budget to twenty thousand, which looking back, that's a pretty good way to make a record compared to what records

cost today. And yeah, we remixed the whole record. I had heard a story about Damien Rice early on, before we had had any record deal, and how he had like scrapped an entire record he had saved up to make because he didn't like how it sounded, and that stuck with me. So when it came time for us, we didn't. It sounded way polished and all these comp takes, it didn't sound like us, It didn't sound like human. So yeah, we remixed it and then went on from there.

Like I said, we would have had the song at least somewhere to like download it, and it was nowhere.

a way. And then we were basing a lot of our decisions on we had heard from. We have a really wise lawyer. His name is Richard Grabile, and he's been doing it for a long time and he's kind of like always I always turned to him when I need really deep advice, and he was just like saying that all these whether it's a major or an indie, the person that signs you is your cheerleader. It's like

a coach who drafts a player. And if that coach or that executive in a label gets fired or leaves, the next guy that comes out comes after him isn't necessarily going to be brooding for you or trying to

help you as much. It's so you was. His point was always know who you're working with, and if you do one record deals, there can't be that much instability within that short period of time, so you can kind of control a lot more of your destiny and how much attention you're getting from your label, because sometimes you'll there are a lot of stories of bands that sign like a three record or five record deal and the guy who championed them leaves pretty soon into it and

they're kind of shelved or ignored, not prioritized in any way. So I think we were just mainly concerned about how fair the deal was. We enjoyed the people at Dual Tone, but it wasn't I gotta give most of the credit

to Richard Grabil. He really helped us navigate these things that we were just frankly just happy to not be, you know, working side jobs, which was just happy to be able to play music and get I was thirty at the time, so I wasn't sure it was ever gonna happen, So there was not a lot like being taken for granted. But I feel like it helps to be a little older because you can say no a little easier because you've been the whole thing has been a failure up to that point.

he's like, I only listened to physical copy. So I had to send him a CD. And then I kind of said, hey, it's been a couple of weeks and I just got this management offer. Can you please get back to me one way or another? And he's like, don't sign that and call me right now. And so I called him and I could barely speak, and I was like, oh, redshird, I just got my wisdom teacher like and he was so excited for us, and he

loved the music and he started helping us immediately. So we luckily didn't sign some really bad management contract to begin with, and he helped us kind of navigate it all from from there from there on.

so it all happened like really fast. He called us on like a Wednesday, he said, this articles coming out and I want you to know about it first, and he tried to kind of explain it and we were

like whoa. And then talk to the lawyers, and then by Sunday we had let him go and as well as like the whole management, we wanted a fresh start, and and then we interviewed that I don't know if you want to go there, but we interviewed like ten more so after that, we're making our third record and we're in the middle of it, and we scheduled like nine or ten two to three hour meetings throughout the course of like a week or week and a half where they all flew to Denver and it was some

of the most amazing management groups and managers and you could ask for because at that point we were like proven goods to some people. So we met with like az like just people I'd only heard about or see, you know, seen on documentaries, and it was really it was really cool to hear their their viewpoints on how either they could help us or their philosophies about music

and how to essentially like help their artists. And we ended up going with Activists, which is run by mainly Bernie Cahill Matt maher mayor I think you say his name. I always messed it up because I had a friend grown up. They went by mar and anyway we like and you know, an Anna cole Ender is also someone if she ever listens to this, ione her to know. I'm so grateful for. But but we ended up going with them. But it was something where I didn't really expect to go with them, you know, like if you

just base it purely on roster. There they were working with Ded and Co and I'm just I had I'd seen the dead and different iterations of them, and it just felt like, well, we're not a jam band. I don't know how they're gonna know how to deal with us in terms of like that's such an improvisational band.

We're more like a writer kind of band. And then when we heard them and we had a meeting with them, it was just kind of like it felt like a perfect fit in their personality and what they were trying to do, and they had just had a person leave. It was Zach Brown had left them to start his own management group, so it was like he had left and left this void that they were just all had

everyone kind of ready for us. They didn't have to hire kind of many more people to make it work with us, So it was kind of like good timing

for both both sides. But it was kind of surreal because we were working on our third record and writing it and then having these race sort of stressful meetings with these you know, people who were all big deals and we're having them in these shitty like I remember we had meetings in this coffeehouse and then this dive bar, and that was like we do back and forth each day two hours and one or two hours in the other, and it was just like you glaze over after a

certain amount of like hearing the same speeches over and over.

speaking with the manager of the Black Keys. I thought he was so thoughtful and he sort of customized things. When he was talking about them and how he did things, it was like, well, that's a real thoughtful or artistic approach to helping a band grow. It's not just like

paint by number make them bigger. He was because I was commenting, like I love one of their videos where it's this dinosaur or it's just saying lyrics and it's like a dinosaur puppet and then there's a girl at the pool and it's I think it's called my ex girl or my next girl, and you know, things like that, and so I think, you know, he was an example of someone we really wanted to work with. But the the deal breaker for us was like he was a

one stop shop. He was a one man band. So if the Black Keys were putting out a record and we were putting out a record, there's only one of him, you know, and we needed like we needed a team, you know. So uh, But he was an example of someone just like really impressed me as far as like how he wasn't just treating every act the same, and he had done his homework on us and had figured out ways he thought we could do some things better.

So but it's a little bit like some people surprise you with like how they just kind of show up and they maybe rely more on their reputation than having anything original to say, and that that could be That was disappointing for me. But on the flip side, some people really shock me with how much energy they put into it and like thoughtfulness they had, because I think that's what it takes. It's really not especially now more

than ever. You need to figure out how to make an audience understand an artist in the way that the artist feels authentic to otherwise it won't work. And you have a lot of examples of I mean, I know, I think you interviewed Billy strings On here. I met him at Willie's ninetieth birthday, and just thinking about how two decades ago, I don't know if he has the

same opportunity. And now, all of a sudden, you have this person who's like a musical household name, and he's playing a style of music that isn't necessarily always in vogue, but people know about him. I think that's pretty great, But that also takes either the artist or the management with the artists to try to communicate that out to the to the audience.

every other small club. They just passed the hat and so it offered you a chance to play to strangers, kind of like Rockwood Music Hall is now to play the total stranger and have people just walk up and discover your music. So we had done a residency I believe it was in let's call it February of two thousand and eleven, and we had or twenty ten, it must have been, and we had we had five tuesdays. I think there was happening to be five tuesdays in

that month. So the management flew out for one of those and express this was the Seattle based management, that they might be interested in working with us, and they wanted to feel us out, and honestly, we didn't have any other like suitors at that point. We were like whoa, this is cool and then things and we were recording all these songs at our home studio and like at Jared's parents house at that time as well.

the music. So the music is the most important thing, and that's the true art. And then when you're out and managers are trying to help you promote it basically get it heard in some way and recognized and distinguished from the ocean of other music that's out there. He was really big on this idea that like it's all an ecosystem. So you don't want you want your live oh you should be wor on your live show. You should be putting a lot of energy into sounding good

live and having a good show. But also you want to if you want radio to play your songs, you have to visit radio stations and you have to you know, kind of like put in a lot of miles in terms of doing that. You can interview with different publications. It doesn't mean that they're going to say nice things about you, but you know, you kind of just you have to put yourself out there in a way that I thought it was just like you make good records

and people find them, and it was. It was very apparent after that that touring will, will is and will always be the most important thing you do beyond the music you make. It's like, if you're not willing to tour and tour hard, you're just kneecapping yourself immediately. So

I don't know. I think part of him is you made me understand that there is there's more to this than just the making of the music, because I think me and Ja were so dedicated as writers and we just love writing music that we didn't really want to have time. We didn't really want to do the other things, and we had to learn how to do those things.

And then her mom was a severe alcoholic. She could drink like a gallon of Tito's vodka day and was arrested in different jails, and she was homeless and she got taken into the emergency room ninety nine times in one year. I mean, she's and we bought her house at some point when we finally had a little bit of money, and we had a victor from that house. It was just sad, like the whole thing. So there was nothing left for me to do in a way

except write about it. I was trying to process it, and I asked Brandy, and then I asked her family if that was okay in a way. Is that okay with you guys. I'm not trying to, you know, make you feel terrible buy us, but I'm this is how I'm dealing with it. So we made this record, and then we had made these music videos for previous records. You know, the first album was kind of like they were ambiguous videos. Second one, Cleopatra, had some really I

think interesting videos. This great director, Isaac Rove Shunkar, I had to come up with this idea of like tying a through line through all these songs. So on the third record, we kind of wanted to ticket to like a different, different level. And so I have to get his name, he says, Kevin. I should know this. I just haven't spoken to him in a little while. He's the man, though, give me two seconds of just looking up his name. Kevin Phillips is his name. So Kevin Phillips.

One of the reasons why we hired him was because he would often cast and work with people who look real. They didn't look like models or Hollywood. It looked like a documentary almost, and so we we wanted to do a song every song had its own music video and it formed a short film. So our activist comes in

is we tell them we want to do this. The label wants to help us a little bit, but basically Jared and I self finance the videos and it's a lot of money and they they're supportive of this whole thing.

And the album is pretty dark. It's pretty in a way depressing to certain people, but we really Jare's brother, who's my friend, died of a heroin overdose at age nineteen, so between him and Brandy's mom, there were things to sort of sing about and feel like grounded in, and so we made these videos and they were pretty like unflinching in that they try to tell the story of what was really happening with an addict and how it

affects a family, and they got they helped us. Activists helped us along the way, and they got it into They helped us get into Toronto International Film Festival, TIFF and the Nashville and Geneva and a bunch of others, and they kind of really helped us try to get that thing seen as best they could. And that I remember sending our manager, Bernie Jimmy Sparks, which is like the longest song on the album and it's a story song, and he was like super into it and supportive right away.

And that wasn't like a hit. That wasn't like at all what a manager typically wants to hear, which is like they hear a song that's short and fast, and they hear dollar signs. He was in this long, like

six or seven minute story song. So I think in a lot of ways we got off on good foot good footing with them because they supported us wholeheartedly in trying to get this three film scene and the album heard, and it it eventually got optioned into making to be made into like a TV show, and that's like still

in the works. We're gonna see what's gonna happen. But like John Mark Valet was like involved in it and he was gonna spearhead the whole thing, and then he tragically passed away and so it's been tabled a little bit. But that was all through this new activist management group that like kind of got creative with how to help us get this album heard.

And then, yeah, he had a lot of social anxiety and he would sort of self medicate, I think, from to try to deal with it, and it just kept escalating. Like I was there when he took his first drink and you could see like the way he drank was to the point of it was to get out of his head and get out of his body. And that seemed like he only knew how to take it to eleven. It wasn't like a middle ground, and he just I think he kept searching for things to numb that feeling

of anxiety that it was really deep within him. And Jerre was sixteen at the time, and it was a lot for him. It would be a lot for anybody in any age, but to be that young and to lose your brother, it was like pretty pretty awful.

Joshua really loved these and so it was like the sort of last time I saw him, but I didn't even get to see him, but we kind of knew something was a lot more serious than we realized. And then but at the same time, you're so I was so young and ignorant of like you just feel invincible, so you're you don't think anything bad's gonna happen like that.

near us. It's an interesting place to grow up. It was a really for me idyllic place because you were in this what felt like safe place, like a little safety bubble, but you're on the doorstep of New York, where it feels like anything can happen, and there's all these all this it's known as the greatest city in the world, and you're right next to it, but you're kind of out of the madness as a kid, but you have access to it. So I thought it was a beautiful place to live.

weeks in he got killed. And that was his oldest brother, and he had there were four brothers altogether, so he was the he was the second youngest. My brother was sorry, my dad was, and so when that happened, it kind of just shattered the family. It made the parents go pretty numb. And so my dad was was I think, pretty dead set on trying to make people connect and feel again, and that was one of his like special

powers or something like. He came home from college and his family still talks about how he he hugged everyone in the family, mom, Dad, all the brothers, and he told them he loved them, and that was the first time they had ever done that, and he was the one to sort of crossed the picket line of that. So I think he was a very to me, a very interesting guy because he also before that got in a lot of fights as a kid. He was a really tough dude, and then came back and found this

new part of himself. I found out he could be a really good listener, and so he had his duality of like we all knew he was a badass and tough, but he was really good at just holding the space for someone like a teenager like me at the time when I was growing up and listening. So I could confess anything to him. And the rule was like I wouldn't really get in trouble necessarily. It was it was a bigger, much bigger sin to lie. So if I told them I smoked weed or drank, they were like,

all right, well, keep it a moderation. But like if I kept something from them, it's like, what are you doing? Just tell me what you're doing, you know. So honesty was encouraged and and I felt like I had a real listener in my life. And I've had a therapist since then with the band and Independent, and they they are not all the same. So I feel like, looking back, it could be really annoying to have a therapist as a parent, but in my case it was it was really nice.

what are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, musician, you just come across like an idiot to a lot

of people, or misunderstood or just kind of outcasted. But I felt like they were really supportive of me, and uh, I think they were very secure in who they were, so when it blew up, there were moments when my brother would tease me, my little brother and say, like, you know, we went to like they'd get together and my mom would be like playing videos of me like at some show, and he's like, West isn't even here?

Can we just like hang out? And I think that I think that's like eased off, and my mom is cool down with that and listen to my little brother. But I think she was she was just excited because I think she was relieved. But I think there it's a testament to them because they're both pretty like accomplished in their own right and and do their own thing, and it can be happy for me, and I'm obviously really happy for them, and so they've been like a big support system through it, through it all.

very comfortable being alone and missing parties. But I was also lucky that I kind of navigated between different groups because I was like into athletics but not really and I was like, I felt like I could hang with a lot of different social groups, but I was never really fully with one of them. And then I was like I felt pretty alone a lot of I don't know why, but I always had this deep sense of longing and loneliness, like just in a temperament kind of way.

So I was always writing poems and poetry and rhyming. I always loved doing that, And you know what began is drawing. Me and Josh were drawing, and that was the kind of solitary thing. It became writing, and then it became playing guitar and stuff, so I would say. And then in school I was like I got in trouble for behavioral stuff, like, you know, just goofing off in class and being a bit of a having making

my friends laugh. And maybe I remember I was supposed to be on some honorable thing, but they kept me off because of my behavior. It was like my mom was so mad. But in a way, it was pretty innocent. It was more like you know, telling I didn't like. I didn't like when any adult was condescending, so I or if I feel like I was being forced to do something, so I would act out against that. But it was overall pretty innocent.

just be a human being, and I crave that. Like if I remember I got to meet Chappelle, or shit, i've met a comedian I really like today's Shane Gillis, Or there's different people in comedy world, or in let's say restaurants, Like we joked that the chefs are like the rock stars of our world because we're it's you get to meet all these different people that are excited about what you do and you're excited about what they do,

and it's a beautiful way to share. I would say we're we're in a unique position as as the lumineers because no one really knows what we look like on a large scale, or knows my name, or they know our songs. Our songs might be famous, but our our personal lives have been I think we got grandfathered in to like this generation that we weren't. They didn't ask that of us, and they no longer want that from us anyway. So like if I could be totally wrong here,

but I just went and saw day. You know a few months ago, and like, I don't think whether they have a TikTok account or not, it really matters. It's like it's green day. And I feel like in some ways those if you're an older artist and you start to try to keep up with the jones as it

can be awkward anyway. So just like another, I like the mystery of some of the bands I grew up listening to, and I feel like our fans hopefully don't mind that there's a little bit of a layer of mystery there, because it is like annoying to me that if if if I was to be asked to be a broadcaster full time of my life and my personality and hey, I'm over here with the it's just I can't do that. It would I would suck at it and know one it would make this a lot less fun,

you know. It's like all all the perks of like So I think I think basically like most of it, I never really cared that much about. But I love getting to know people like that. You don't get to see that side of them that often.

could play the songs better than anyone else. He's like, doesn't matter, and I was like, I don't agree with this, and I just like walked down. And I always felt like it was like, well, what's the point of this. I thought it was to play the song? So I knew I had like some level of acumen when it came to that and like remembering lyrics and holding a melody and things like that. But I didn't really pick up a real instrument again until I was sixteen and I played started playing guitar.

how do you do that? What is that? And then I started playing guitar and within a year or two, I think I started playing guitar in like ninety seven or ninety eight, and and I have an old CD

of like Christmas of ninety nine. I made my dad loved if you made him gifts, like he didn't want you to buy anything, so I made him a home recorded like covers album with actually with some originals on it that I still have, like a CD where I recorded on that really like the tiny little mic that they used to give you with a computer, you know, just a shitty little But I started playing because because I saw these shows. I would say, I couldn't believe

how entranced I was by these shows. And then I remember just it reminds me of Howard Stern because he talks about watching his dad with the radio and how he just was fascinated by that and wanted to be that to his dad. And I couldn't relate more to the idea that I would sit there on these drives with my dad and he'd be like hitting me in

the arm and be like, listen to this. Listen, like listen to what playing a Warren Yvonne song and be like like and start laughing, that's hilarious, or talking heads, you know. He focused a lot on the lyrics, and I think because he was a shrink, he loved when people were right on the edge of like and they

were so honest with what they were saying. And I remember and then I remember him saying about Billy Joel, like listen, all these styles this guy could do, and uh, I remember thinking, like, wouldn't it be cool if he thought that of me, Like not consciously, but just like it was just like, this is my hero and his hero is in that coming out of that speaker. And I think that really drove home for me. Like, as I reflected back on it, I was like, why was

I so fascinated by this? It's like, well, because I saw this dude that I he was my whole world and that was his whole world. Was this music, even though he wasn't like a musical guy himself. You know, he didn't sing or anything, but he was just into it.

I'll never see my mom's guitar again. It was this like Yamaha nip On Ghaki, like they made him in Japan FG one, which is like a beater of a guitar, but it's amazing guitar for if people want to buy, they call it a poor man's Martin and it's just this great guitar. It's just not good for touring because it'll break down. But I had that. So its acoustic guitar.

And my first song was a Dave Matthews song. It was like when I'm walking by the wall, it was just I forget the name of it, but I remember open for him and wanting to play it for him. It's like but U And the next one, one of the ones soon after that was Tangerine by led Zeppelin.

It was like a lot of I learned Dave Matthews because I felt like that was like some of the hardest rhythm guitar to play while singing, and I kind of knew that, so I was like, if I can learn this, then there's a lot of other songs I can learn that are going to feel easier than this, because he had a lot of stretches and really intricate stuff, and I think it was free fallin'. I have that. I took lessons for a few months and that's all you really need, and I have the early lesson book.

I saved it all these years. He taught me basic scales and basic chords and some blue stuff, just stuff to like I said, just give me a really basic foundation and then I'll just hopefully take it from there. And because I didn't like having to do it, but it kept me going, you know, for the beating part of it. And then soon after I just found myself like wanting to write songs because I love writing poetry.

So I've heard John Mellencamp describe, you know, his guitar playing as a vehicle for the lyrics, and I always felt like, I just really love the lyrics in the music, and the guitar and any instrument was just a way to put that on put that out there.

that like didn't go the way you practiced it. With music, for some reason, it went better, and it was like felt locked in and that those nerves were no longer like hurting me. They were like creating this, this better, better thing coming out of me, which was like a totally unique feeling because I had really love sports growing up and now would get out there and just like try way too hard, and for some reason, music it was just different.

And I think they thought, if we give him four years, he's moved on from every obsession he's ever had. Because I used to be kind of obsessed with things. He's moved on from every one of those, so what's the odds are He's just he's gonna get that out of a system and then he's going to find something that's more steady work, you know, more like a normal job. So you don't go to college, no, So I tried

to convince them. My dad had a good pitch. He's like, I want you to go away to school, and I want you to like find yourself outside of this town, outside of this family, and just get through it. Like, just do it. It's not a punishment. You'll have a good time. But like I always felt like I was behind, you know, like I could be in the real world trying to make it in this and you're asking me

to do that. So then when I got to school, I went to the University of Richmond, where my sister had gone, and uh, I started playing a lot there and I remember, like I kind of cringe looking back, but there was like a courtyard with a gazebo, and I would sit in the gazebo and it like I would sing at the buildings of dorms. Like, thinking back, it was so obnoxious, but I think I just wanted to get this self consciousness out of my system. So

I would just play, like for an hour. I remember people yelling out the window was like shut up, you know, like, and I would just keep playing. And then I played at the and played the mics, and I just started

playing a lot and formed. I formed a band. I called it like Wesley, Keith and Co. And I had different people coming and going, but most of that there were I remember I had the biggest I would say, the biggest event that happened to me, or the biggest thing that happened to me that was really serendipitous, or it was like the reason I was supposed to go to school to that school was In college at All, I met this guy, Charles Arthur, who's an incredible musician,

and he was an adjunct professor there where he gave lessons and I took lessons with him. I decided, you know, I know how to do rhythm guitar. I want to learn how to solo. It'd be so cool if I could solo. And I went to take lessons with him and we sat down and we almost never picked up an instrument. We just talked about music and the approached to it. And I didn't really learn how to solo, but I learned how to write songs with him. And there is a minimalism to what he brought to the table.

He was like, how do you say the most with the least? So you know that old that old adage is like, if I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter. It's like Mark Twain apparently said that. I don't know if you did, but it's it's like every note should matter, and every word you say and every and he taught me just how to

create tension and then relieve that tension. It was a very incredible experience just talking music with this guy that I still keep in touch with and we still talk often. And whenever I get a new album, I said it to him, and whenever I make a new album, I mean and whenever I get a gold record, I send him a copy with his name on it as like a thank you for showing me how to write music. And he lives at he lives still in Richmond, and this is a guy who plays in a lot of bands.

But it was funny because he plays in some wedding bands and he's like, you fucker. I got to play your songs now at these ways. It's so good.

can jare come? And I was like, I don't. I don't really want anybody else there. This is a pain in the ass to try to coordinate everybody's schedule. And then he's like, come on, come on, just let it and he came in and we kind of hit it off musically, and that that other guy justin ended up, you know, having kids, getting married and all this stuff, so he was he couldn't can continue to pursue music, and Jared and I kind of just stuck with it.

And at the time my dad was sick. He had like a three plus year about with cancer, and so I was staying home for him in a way, and I was and I was staying home to play music with Jerr, but I really didn't want to be home, and so there was there was a lot of pride that was it hurt my pride be you know, past

a certain age. But I stayed and it was kind of good looking back in terms of we were able to do a lot of experimenting home recording and just with no overhead, you know, no money being spent, just recording in this anonymous way, driving into the city, constantly gigging and just seeing that side of it before we really got a break, and you know, any spotlight was on ut, which is I think important for every band because I think the nightmare scenario would be that you

come up with a style and a song that you really hate, everybody loves it and they want more of that from you, and you you don't even want to play it. So I think by the time I remember, something really shifted where I was in this Brooklyn apartment and I was I ended up writing like a ton of really good songs in this really dark period living in Bushwick where, But I like O Hey and Flowers

and your Hair and all these songs. But I remember writing Flowers and sending it to Jare, And the great thing about Jerry is he hears it and he goes, I love that car alarm in the back the background, so he's trying to recreate that. And but I remember playing that for my little brother, and my little brother has always been supportive, but he's not effusive in praise, like he's not going to tell you something's great if

he doesn't believe it. And it was really sweet because that was the first song I'd shared with him a ton of songs. That was the first time he said it's a really good song. Like it was kind of surprised him. And you know, whenever you do something like that and you have someone in your life that doesn't bullshit, it was really a moment to be like, yeah, I thought it was good too. And from Flowers came Classic Girls, came Stubborn, Love, came out Hey, came Dead Seat. They

were just pouring submarines. They were all just like pouring out of us. But before that, it was like the pipe was clogged, and all of a sudden, it was just like boom, stuff started pouring out of us, and none of it was that similar to the last song. So it was a really strange, cool time of like we crossed over some hump.

So I just found I found all these different jobs I could do, uh, and I worked all those kind of like at the same time, like in little spurts, you know.

what are you guys talking about? And and the next guy, Joe bran Support, who's really accomplished musician in his own right to this day still records and plays music and he's insanely talented, he peeled off. So we had these people like a third member come and go, third member come and go, and it finally just was easier to look at it more like, Okay, we're the we're the nucleus, and anyone else who joins is is probably gonna leave,

so let's just like do it in the house. Let's figure out ways to do this ourselves, or just view it that way. So then we renamed the band Wesley Jeremiah as like a an idea. It didn't really stick, but we always liked the name. We always like a band for some reason. That was our generation was like bands. So we were we were, you know, romantic, We were romantic about the word band. Like we thought it was so cool to be in a band, which is why we ended up naming it the Lumineers. But that was

even that was an accident. That was like a we were at an open mic in Jersey City and there was like an MC who was running the open mic and he's like, up next, we have the Lumineers and we got on stage were like, we're not the Lumineers, but uh, we're Wesley Jeremiah. Nice to meet you guys, and and then I was like I kind of like

that name. And then that was an instrumental band, and then they broke up and we just kind of adopted the name, and then we were certain it was going to have to get taken away because it was like a dental veneer company. And our lawyer was like, no, it's unrelated. It's not the same you know Lane or something, so it's yours. Like whoa, this is crazy. So it kind of stuck. But it's something that the band name is a hard thing to arrive at because they all sound stupid.

one really did. I mean, that city's wild. And when I was I decided to move there. And Jay was still finishing school at William Patterson and so I decided to move there.

I didn't have that. So I was like there for a little while, taking it really seriously, but also doing the math and realizing that all the time I used to have when I was living at home to write music with Ja and record that was all going away.

And I was joking that I got really good at making hot and cold drinks, but I was not getting better at music because I was a barista and I was a bartender, and I was all these things that I didn't care about and I so I was like, I'd be better off in Buffalo, New York versus New York, New York because I had no time for the thing that I knew I had to put all this energy into. So we moved to Denver just because a couple of

friends were like, this is what the rent costs. And I remember being on a subway platform and Jar wasn't gonna do it. He was like, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna go start a studio with Joe Brandsport, and I was like, I kind of just gave him my sales pitch on why if we try to make it work remotely it's not gonna work, then what do you

You can always go back and make that studio. But you'll never have this this chance, you know, and he, like God bless me, he took the he you know, he bit the pitch and we went and we drove out, and Denver was a much better place at that time to try to be making it.

their fans are friends, mostly friends. They take their ten dollars door fee or whatever, they sit them down. They make them buy drinks at a comedy club, you know, one drink or two drink minimum, and when your set's over, they kicked them out. They're not even allowed to stay. So it is a vicious circuit that you get exposed to. But there was something exciting about it, and there were glimmers of hope, but overall it was like pretty it was. It was all about just like wanting to make it

any way. It's like if you were in a movie but you were an extra. You know, it's like you're not really no one gives a fuck whether they're or not, but you feel like you're part of the movie. And that really mattered to us at the time. And then I remember my buddy who was my roommate, Matt Maddy Collins. He said to me it was like the Goodwill hunting scene where he's like kind of like, I love you, man, but if you're still hearing five years, I'm going to

fucking kill you. Like he said, you have the same five or ten people coming to every show and that's fine, man, but like nothing's changing here, Like you need something needs to change, you know, And he's like, I believe in you, but you gotta like do something. Something's gotta give, and

that's something given. Was definitely moving somewhere else. So we we took the plunge based on just what became what felt like a Merry go Round where you just or twilight Zone or what's Groundhog's Day where you're every gig feels like it starts to blend in with the last, because they're all just nothing's changing or growing, it's just stagnating.

isn't like the rider we get backstage or something. It's it's writing music. It's like the core of what we love to do, we get to do without anybody bothering us. And I think that is the ultimate ultimate high for us, So those were like what kept us going. I think was like the joys of like the simple act of getting to write music.

of questions. And I had worked a long shift and everything, and I kind of just felt embarrassed, you know, and the lady was like, I, I just we just have the best idea, you know, all these kids like want to learn math, you should write math songs. And I just went up and like cried, Like I went to my room and I just cried. I was like, I'm such a fucking loser, like and I will not do that. Like there's a part of me that was like I didn't make music to make money. I just like I

wouldn't do it like that. That would be like that would be.

isn't like what I'm into. This isn't the type of artist I want to be. This is operatic, technical singing. I want someone who's like baring their soul and in a way a shitty singer that is risking it all by putting it out there. And so even that was weird to come home and you're like, maybe I'm the fool,

you know what I mean. And then like years later, American Idol was licensing our songs so that contestants could sing it, and I'm like, this is so fucking weird, like our song Angela or something, and You're like, I don't know how to square this, but but life is weird that I think that. I think I just kept my head oblivious, like and I have deliberately kept my head down and like stayed oblivious to a lot of it and tried to I kept trying to tell myself that this is like just part of the like the

hero's journey or something. You're like, you're gonna do it. This is just make your story even better, you know, like just trying to convince in any way that you're not being an idiot.

the wrong end of it. So consciously, did you say I'm going to wait to do all that until I have you know, I've broken through, or did you conversely find or maybe simultaneously find that women said this isn't what I'm looking for?

the country club where I was working. I was cleaning the salad bar at the end of the night, and she was like, are you all right? It's everything alright. I was like, oh my god, like because I was like, I'm a musician. I'm actually you saw her. It's like if she went to an asylum and was talking to a crazy person, and I'm like, oh no, she thinks that I'm crazy, you know, so I think there there was like when I moved to Denver, I had I felt like there was more of a culture around being

an artist. But in New York, at least the experience that I had, it was pretty hard to link up and meet people that way, because yeah, it's a pretty competitive, successful city and if you're just like this on this part of the totem pole, it's not very interactive. So when I moved to Denver, I met a lot more like gypsy like people, some carnies you know that like got what we were trying to do. And then it was a little easier to date and to meet people. So I met I met my wife. She threw like

a house show. She threw a house show for like her best friend where we show up, and my wife was like dating a woman at the time. So I'm thinking, like I'm a Jersey boy, and I'm just categorizing, like, oh, Denver has house shows, and that's a lesbian, and that's Harry Armpit and that's a you know, like you just I just moved there, and so it turned out she was not a lesbian. She would just have I've been dating a woman at that time and had dated men before.

But for about a year I was just talking to her like a friend, and that was like a really nice way to meet somebody because I wasn't putting on any fronts. I was just like being myself and she she happened to like that, and it's not how you draw it up, but it was a beautiful way to meet somebody in the sense of like there was no fronting. Uh, it was just like candid talk. You know.

coming to your show. So he just gave me a Rolodex because he had been touring with his band on a very grassroots level and a DIY house show kind of level. So he's the first guy to take us out busting went to Boulder and busting on the streets for money, and then gave me this just long list of people to call an email. And that's how we did our first touring. And I feel like Denver was helpful because if you're on a coast, you stick to

that coast unless you're just really getting after it. But when you're in Denver, you got to go left or right. You can't really stay there. There's only a couple of cities you can really play. So it was like it was on I mean the first tour we did that

was a real deal tour that was DIY. We went took a mini van and a little U haul trailer, the smallest one they had, and we drove it all the way out to the West coast, all the way up the coast through the country down the East coast back in thirty days and just played a ton of shows, and it was like that was a baptism by fire

in the most beautiful way. Had I gone somewhere else, let's say I went to Buffalo, New York, I think I just stay on the East Coast, and then that's less of like a baptism, that's less of a challenge, you know. So I think being in the middle of the country had its pressures of like, you're gonna have to go and one's not that much easier than the others, so you got to go all over. It made us think about it differently.

styles singing and performing. When you're busking, you have to project, and you have to sing really loudly and almost scream. So a lot of that album is just it's like informed by those gigs. You know, you kind of like glean what's going to work in that style room, and then that ends up on your record by accident. But I would say you kind of just take a leap of faith and you do that first few gigs and hopefully someone has steered you correctly, like this is a

good place to go. And so we just did a lot of that. We called people that we knew would have friends come out, even if they didn't know the band, so'd be like, hey, can we just we just it's almost like we're not going to pay you, but we'd almost pay you to do this, Like can you just get some people here? All we want is bodies in the room. We want to just play to people. And there's so much of our previous musical life have been spent being so proud of posting on the website all

the gigs we had scheduled. And then you get to that gig in Philadelphia or Virginia or wherever, and it looked nice online and on the flyer and no one's there. And then when you go to a house show, everyone has a different feeling about it and they're kind of forced to commit there, they're really engaged in listening, and the next time you come to town, you almost it's like double the people. There's some deep, deep intimacy impact to that that I never knew until I did it.

And then it became like a way to to really effectively tour and like make it somehow work while you're being a busboy on the side.

later we were on the show. So it's like those things have a way of they keep playing a big guard. You're playing a lot of seeds, and you just never know where thing's gonna come from.

I was like, something's happening here. And then we played five shows at the living room and then we used that as kind of like a satellite here in New York every Tuesday. Where else can we go in between? So we went to Virginia, went to I think Pittsburgh, maybe we went to DC, we went up to Maine. We went all these different places in between those five gigs, and by the fifth show, the living room, that show sold out. So it was like, over the course of a month we even saw a half empty room to

a sold out room. It was really cool.

April of twenty twelve. And at that point when that album came out, oh hey, it was already on the radio a couple months before that, and it had kind of like shot up into different formats and it was all just news to us.

think they felt bad. And then I was making some sort of Swedish like we were using dough and making these Swedish pancakes or something and my hands were like covered in flour and we were in there with their kids and it comes on on the radio station and it was the first time I heard it. It was like I wanted to like get my phone out and text somebody. And my hands were covered in flour from the cooking we were doing. And we were about to leave for for tour at that point, and and I was like, well,

that's a good sign. And I think we had just found out we were going to play Conan and that was a real dream come true. We just love Conan O'Brien, and like things were happening, you know. I think we got in a south By Southwest after years of rejection. That's I mean, that's like the sort of irony of

festivals like that south By and stuff like that. It's like you're almost getting in when they already have heard about you, which is not the point to me, but uh, it seems to all snowball are happen at once sometimes.

bring clothes? Like I have my clothes. I'm gonna wear what I wear, you know. Even down to that, it was like, really remember going to the Grammys and they'd be like, here's some free sunglasses. You just have to take a photo. I was like, I don't want to fucking take a photo. Like it was. I felt like the industry as a whole, whether it was imagined or real, it felt like it was just to sort of like soften you to change in a way that I didn't like.

And I didn't feel safe around. I felt like I was always in this weird danger zone of maybe whatever I thought made us who we were was gonna be played around with and rooted out of us. So I was like really wary of the whole thing, and then I wasn't so concerned about like whatever was going to

happen next. I just felt like a lot of this stuff felt cheap, like it wasn't didn't mean that much to me versus some other things in my life, Like, you know, it felt like objectified, and I don't really know if that's a healthy way to look at it. And I think other people around me were enjoying it

a lot more. I think now I feel in a really happy place with it, because I feel like there's a level of like independence from some of that and security where I'm like, I felt like we built a trust with an audience that doesn't can't be like taken away from us in an instant. But at the time, it felt like there's some people out there who just like want to make it known that they can make you and unmake you.

about what happened around o Hey. That's not as lightning in a bottle. That's almost circumstances way beyond anyone's control. And when we came out the second record, I was I felt like we had made an even better record and like instinctively, you know, and then I felt like we were really really lucky that Ophelia had the connection it did and it had its own moment where we didn't feel like we had to prove that was just

a fluke, you know. I felt like that already with having Stubborn Love in the mix, but then having Ophelia just shoot up, and then we had Cleo and Angela on that second record. It was. It was definitely strange to to you know, you come out of the gates with your first album and you get nominated for Best New Artists and Best Americana Record, and then you put out what you feel is a better record that connect to a lot of people, and it's just crickets from

the Grammys. There's not like a nomination. But I don't I've learned over time that that's like, that's just a strange world. I don't I don't necessarily understand how things are. I know we don't fit neatly into a box, so that probably works against us with some of that stuff. And I know we're not on a major I know we don't play the game as well as other people.

But it was surprising to be like, I'm just kind of shocked we got nominated at all, knowing what I know now, and then we got to play the show. It was kind of a miracle for us because that a lot of our friends and family and just fans thought we had won because we had played the show. So like in a lot of ways, it's it's a really beautiful break like turn of events and break for us. And now we've kind of remained under the radar as far as that goes. But I guess you just you

take your breaks where you can get them. That's how I kind of view it. It's like, at first, you don't understand it and it doesn't make sense, and it can be kind of like deflating, but it's also a strange measure of yourself. If that's how you're like viewing it, you know it's a kind of a trap.

care that much about how long it took. I just thought the fastest way to plummet is to put out a mediocre record, So I was like, as long as this is strong, we're our chances of like survival and all. This is way higher than if we rush something to please someone. I think today's people making music have a lot of fear around people forgetting about them, and I just don't agree with that. I think I get really

turned off when I hear music that sounds rushed. It sounds like half baked versus someone who, oh yeah, remember that. I love that band, and every time they put something out, I fucking dig it. So I was never really too concerned. I know our management was a bit or a label, and our management are concerned about those types of things, but it never really bothered me that much.

all together. Those good ideas and that makes a record, and then some of us just written on the spot, but a lot of it is just like ideas that have been existing independent of each other, just sitting around on your voice note voice memo thing.

is the melody. And then and then I would take like I would take a adder all and just walk around the park and just mumble to myself like a schizophrenic person and just get a bunch of lyrics written between when we finished sort of demoing the the rough, rough ideas and then trying to fill in the blanks

with some lyrics. So it was like that that area of time was just a lot of constant like trying to create something, and it was and then when we got to the studio, I think it's our it's I think it's our best record on a lot of levels, mainly because take the first record, for example, we we had written all those songs over the course of like three four years, and then we had performed them hundreds of times, and so by the time we went in to make the Alb it was like you knew everything

about the songs, and there wasn't discovery, There wasn't like that feeling of danger or curiosity. It was just like execution, almost like you'd been putting on a play and now you're gonna do the movie of it. And and this one was there's we had no we call demo ititis, where you've done something so cool as a demo and now you're all you're really trying to do is like

pantomime thatt recreate that, and that's impossible. It's like I always say, it's like if you ever have the best date with your partner, every time you go back to that restaurant and try to recreate it, it's always not

as good. And there's something about that process that we did on this one where you can hear us being like children just exploring and like playing around like they say, play music like we were playing for the first time in a long time, and it was It was really beautiful, and it kind of it was surprising that twenty years in Jere and I were as excited as we've ever

been for something. It made me feel good about me and him and a band and what we're doing because I know there are elements of this where bands kind of get into it for other reasons and then it kind of becomes something different over time. And for us, it was like, wow, this is great. Can you know? There was such a a wellspring in it and I think you can hear on the record and we did most of them takes are live. They're like really there's a a lot of humanity and all of it.

And then David's more of he's a great producer in his own right, but he's he's also a wizard when it comes to the engineering side of things, and he's an artist in his own way when it comes to, you know, presenting a guitar, presenting a vocal or presenting piano drum sounds. It's like he's really pushing that to the limit as far as like what what's possible and

how raw you want to make it? And like with the vocals, for example, all the vocals are like sitting really upfront in the mix and not a lot of

adornment for most of them. Like a song like Automatic, the title track is just like right, he describeses like it's holding right in the center, right at you, and he's just encouraged us to be really brave with our choices and mixing, and I think it and he was the one who wanted it to be like get back the Beatles, where it's a big, open room and there's a lot of bleed and you're kind of like playing all together live, not multi tracking and doing everything separately.

So he's a big he was like the instrumental force behind that.

that was gonna be a placeholder or whatever. And then it worked out and Lauren was super understanding of what we were trying how it all unfolded, which credit to her. With regards to the other instruments we have Byron Isaac's on bass and he tours with us. He used to play with Leavon home and for like six years and wrote a song or two on his Dirt Farmer record, and he's an amazing musician in his own right. We met him on the second album and he's been with

us ever since. So he played with us a lot live for this for this album, and then we had, you know, a choir of three singers that would come in, amazing singers and they would do backing vocals, and we had a little bit of James Felee, Simon's brother who has sang on our records a lot. He's fantastic. He's in the Police Brothers.

advertisement for the tour. You make a new album, not to mention the fact, I'm sure you'll sell you know, physical product, whatever, but eighty four percent of the revenues now or on streams. What are your expectations.

make it. I think it's important that we make this record. And it kind of tamped down whatever that part of my side of my brain or that ego part of it. It was freeing to just make something for the sake of making it. That's probably you know, that's how you should make every record. And so with this one, I mean, I'll say that the early responses of playing it live are really special, and I don't think that's I think

that's a strong indicator of it's more. I think the more the bigger question is like, well, anyone know it's out? And if you're not dating or Kardashian, does anyone know your music or something? So I think there's ways people cleverly promote. Whether it's Jack White, who I think does it super artfully, it's like a genius when it comes to letting you know he has a record out.

to like want something specific to happen with it. And also, I've been proud of every record we've made, and they're not always they don't always hit the way that you thought they would, or the songs like look we have on on the album three, we had a song called Donna, and I don't know what the streaming numbers are on that, but like live, that's a big song for us, and that means so much because it's a slow, piano, sad

song and I just love when those things. I love when I feel like the audience is choosing something organically and they haven't been force fed something, because obviously when something like Ophelia happens or oh hey, that stuff is force fed, it's like a duck, you know, making the foie gras. It's like the audience is it's forced upon them, and I don't that's part of the game. But what made me really happy or mental lot to me was when people like songs I Slow It Down or Donna,

or songs that never made the radio. You know. Those are those show you that an audience is is discerning and does have a taste, and they tell you by by how they listen to it online or had a show. You could just feel. And that's to me, that's a lot more like sustainable and reassuring, and I try to focus on that because otherwise it's like, I mean, I'm not just turned forty two or not like a young band. This isn't like the new shiny thing. And I hope that.

I hope that's it's a situation like Tom Petty Wildflowers, where it's like a renaissance constantly. I couldn't believe being a teenager listening to that album and it feeling so fresh, and I could go backwards in his catalog and get blown away, like it's so such a cool feeling, and I'm I've always been enamored by that situation. Just it was a very formative time for me. I remember holding that CD. It was that brown paper like CD the outside of it, and just being like, who is this guy?

And then remembering realizing that I'd heard all these songs on classic rock stations by this guy, and yet this is something he has to say, that's brand new, that's maybe the best thing he's done. You know, it's so so impressive. So I'd like to believe that it comes from like the audience sort of finding it and gravitating toward it. But they're so out of our hands.

who knows how that plays out. Like I remember seeing Bruce Springsteen or Tom Petty and they'd have new albums out and they would play like chunks of the album select tracks, and I see that as cool too, But for us it wasn't. Maybe it was encouragement by our booking agents or management or something I don't really know, but instinctively, it was really fun to play new stuff, even if I feel like you break people in enough to it the shock goes away or something and they're

just they're down with it. And like we opened for You two in twenty seventeen, and that was the first time I think in their career where they had really like kind of looked back. They played Joshua Tree as an entire They were going to play the whole thing, And it was thirty years or something anniversary and we were opening and they started playing stadiums for that. Two nights at the Rose Bowl was the first gigs we

played with them. And so they had gone from playing arenas to stadiums because they were willing to play older stuff. But I thought, what a testament to you two that they've continued to like do what they wanted to do and not being like dance, Monkey Dance, I'm gonna play only the hits and I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy these stadium gigs. They were like, we want to play it our way. So if our way means you play arenas,

that's great too. And uh so they're they're playing arenas as like almost their version of an underplay versus like playing just the hits. And I think for us playing the whole song, playing the whole album, uh for for for audiences has been it was tough in the beginning, but it was all we had. Like we put out our second album, what were supposed to do? We didn't enough music to fill up like the whole the whole time, unless it was cover songs. So from the beginning we

were forced to play our whole records. And now it's just an old habit that I think is a good one to have.

it's great to see. I mean it. It sounds like it should be a prerequisite to work in music that you love music, but as you probably well know, not everybody who ends up here actually likes it. So it's nice to be around people who have that fire and that passion and in his case, believed in us way more than we ever believed in what it could. I hesitate to even say it that way, because I don't I think it's odd to like want to play a stadium. I don't, that's not like an ambition. But he, for him,

that's exciting. He's like, I'm gonna get the most people at your show, and it's really cool. And he's kind of He's made it happen in a lot of ways for us, and I think him just expressed in a faith in us has made people who haven't paid attention to us maybe take us a little more seriously because Louis he's like, he's like a mafia dude that like, you know, you're a made man if you like he kind of like expresses I believe in that, and suddenly

people go, well, maybe there's something there. And so it was a big thing for us. It would be like getting a really positive review in a magazine where people read it. It's like that's before anybody kind of took a chance on us.

back to. So it's like there's a deal there. He's like, blow their minds. I'm going to bring him here, blow their minds. Like and he whenever we see him, he goes, I just need one more song, just one more song, Like he's always like talking about one I need one more song or two more songs, something like that. And I know what he means, but I'm like, it's if I knew how to do that, I would just do

it for you. But it's not that simple. But I think the other side of it, I think he I think he like challenges our management and the band and the booking agents to sort of go for it in a way that everybody's so cautious that he's like, why would you what? Go go big? Like try it, And there's something that's a good person to have as a part of the mix in the room, you know, Like, I think there's a lot of conservative people and he's

not like that. He's a dreamer, so he's always like, you know, pushing the envelope and getting us and and the other part of it is I think he's he's aligned with us in the sense of he's not someone who's gonna throw out a bunch of money and give someone a big advance. He's like, if you win, I win, and if I win, you win. We're going in on this together. That's not like you know, someone's gonna lose. And you know what I mean. I think there's like a there's like a we're all in this together aspect

of this that is. I think that's why his business works because he's like taking a chance right there with you.

makes music become a choice. But I also think it's a funny thing because I was discussing this with Simon Felice a few years ago, where we got into music on the back of the nineties and early two thousands, when everyone was like, man, there's no money to be made in this bit there, and so it was almost like you were joining the Peace Corps or like becoming a teacher, where everyone's kind of looking at you like, you know, there's no money, but I'm glad you exist.

And so to have that flipped on its head, and now people are sometimes doing music to try to make money. It's bizarre to me. But I feel like like I was standing in front of my house the other day and these people were walking by and they were like, I live in Denver. And these people were walking by and they parked the car and they're like, it's a beautiful house, and like I looked, I'm like thanks. Man.

He's like, wait, you live there, and I was like, yeah, yeah, I lived there, and I was with my wife and kids. And then he turns I don't believe him, and then the person goes, wait, you live there, and he's like yeah. And I was talking to a neighbor and they I don't believe him, and I was like, I told my wife lear I was like, I think that's the nicest

thing someone's ever said to me. It is like, I don't believe him because we didn't really get into this for any of that, and so it feels okay to to have things go your way and have something nice because it wasn't the reason. It's just kind of like I could take it or leave it. I enjoy I enjoy parts of it, but really it's just like the joy of I'm sitting here in my like workshop home studio thing. This is the best part of it. And then music somehow made its ability to buy a house

and stuff like that, but all of it. It's it's cool because none of us got into it of that era for money. It was the opposite people thought we were being more on So in that way there's a guilt free aspect. I remember our first house, like these dudes while I was walking that was with my wife and he's like, oh, go back to mommy and Daddy's house, and I was like, all right, man, it's just like there's an element of this that I feel like, uh not, You're just like this is all kind of funny money.

It doesn't really make sense. There was no promises about this. This is just like this happened to be the era we were born in. It could have been twenty years ago and I would be in a much different situation. It's it's all fucking timing and luck in some of that stuff. But the bottom line was I loved music, and now this is cool that we're getting paid at all to do it.

played a show. There's like fifteen thousand people there and we were like, this is insane, Like you know, suddenly Spotify exists and smartphones are in everyone's hands all over the world. There's places that English just the second language and they're playing to a large crowd of people. It's it kind of blows my mind. I don't I think.

I think country to country it's pretty different. Like if you take Ireland, I think Ireland likes us because of the storytelling, but it's it seems to differ place to place, and it's like almost like not for me to understand. But like you know, a I would take a band I've always loved, like growing up, like The Killers. The Killers are like probably arguably bigger in Europe than in the States, and I feel like we're bigger in the

States than we are in other places. But we've gone back so many times to to Italy and to Spain and to Ireland and Germany that you start to see it slowly grow and it feels like trustworthy or something. I don't know how the right way to say it, but it feels like at least something that feels like, all right, maybe this is a real thing versus in the very beginning. It was like when we first went to Europe on our first album, and then we returned on the second album, I think our ticket sales like

divided in half, and it was kind of shocking. It was like, whoa, no one's here, what the hell's going on? And then we we've sort of like, over the next two to three albums, have built everything back up to where it once was. And I think that's an interesting

thing to happen to somebody. It's like you realize in the beginning, it's kind of like a moment in time and you're and then you slowly grow back into this original thing that you thought was so easy, and it was like a lot of hard work to get back to the thing you thought was easy or it thought was like, oh, I guess it just happens. Like it doesn't just happen. It went away just as fast as it happened.

But it's not overly done because I find a lot of that cheesy and probably not authentic to like, I don't think we'd come off doing it well anyway. There's some people are just naturals. They're like, that's what they're about and they know how to do that. I just I don't and I don't care. So I live with the I live with the understated rollout and like, you know,

let the chips fall where they may. But like, in another way, we've we put a lot of behind the scenes work into Like there were a lot of years where we were showing up to radio station early morning the day of a gig and playing an in studio session and doing an interview. We did a lot of that, I think to try to like plant seeds of maybe the radio will support us in some ways, or you know,

there's different ways to do it. But I sit back and total admiration of someone like Jack White, who can he can promote something and somehow it's just so cool the way he does it, And that's just don't I don't. I don't have that like same instinct. I can't. I wish, I wish he could help us. But at the same time, there's a charm to like letting people find it. I think they feel like they own it a little more if it's on their terms, which is why hit songs

don't feel as personal to people. I think they just feel like they were shoved into your face, and if they're good, it's almost a surprise, you know. It's like it's like, I'm sure Bruno Mars has some amazing songs, but all of them feel like they're just like pushed directly into my ear and like it's a little aggressive versus like I don't know. I got into Time out of Mind, that Dylan record from like ninety nine, I want to say ninety seven, and I listened to that

NonStop this whole recording session. I don't know why. It just gave me a lot of comfort and I kept listening. I've still listened to it, and it's kind of like Rodriguez. There's these albums that I get into. They feel like mine because nobody forced me to listen to it, And maybe that's part of it. Maybe that's like I mean,

we were we were sitting in with Zach Bryan. I think he's an example of someone who the fans tend to feel like his music is their music, and I think part of that is that he released this is a lot and doesn't really like having an extravagant roll out, and it's just like a here it is unadorned. This is it direct to you. And you know there's something to be learned from that because everybody thinks that they

know what they're doing and how to promote a record. Well, like he's kind of broken that mold, at least for himself. I don't know how many people could pull it off, but he's a good example of like, hopefully some good music can find its own way.

gonna make our second record. We had found a studio in the woods of Colorado in the middle of nowhere, and like three weeks from about to record there, the owner called me or called our management and said the price it tripled because I guess they found out our band or something who we were, and we were like what No, So we ended up changing plans and going out to the cat Skills for the first time, which turned out to be like an hour north of where we JOURNI up just fell in love with the area,

and so I have a few yurts out there in a house and it's like a little bit of a compound where we spent a lot of time. We make records out there. I produced records with David Barrett out there, so it's like a beautiful Do do you spend time out there? Have you been out there?

you doing right? And he was like pretty good the weather, and he like launched into this explanation and I was like, is this real? This guy's like talking to me right now. It was so friendly, and I was I was I found myself when I first moved here, like what's the catch? What are you trying to do to me? What are you trying to sell me? And it's just pretty kind, you know, Like so I had to adjust to that, and I think people actually found me to be quite cold,

hence the song asshole. But it was like I think I was pretty like unnerved by how nice everyone was being, and I was like I didn't find it very authentic. You know, No one's just nice. And then I've been here long enough where it's just normal to me now, and when I go back East, I can kind of switch back to that and I definitely understand it a lot more.

is just normal to me. I was like, I was going to the Museum of Natural History as a kid and seeing like drug addicts on the street and like homeless people and just wild behavior at a sort of young age that this is like they're in their twenties now, like her brothers in his forties and their kids are their teens, and they were just like, well did you see that? Guy?

doing here? Like what's going on? Like when is band rehearsal?