Tom Corson

a long time, Absolutely big fan. And you know when I think i've we first encountered each other, I don't know, maybefore at when they had Giant and Brian Adams they played on the sound stage in Your wife was pregnant at the time. I believe she would have been very good of you to remember that and delivered a nice, healthy girl at that time. On top of our boy, what are they? How old? How old are your kids today? And thirty? Our daugh will be twenty nine in a week.

What are they up to? Our daughter is just graduated from Chinese medical school, so she'll be your acculates, your natural path. And our son is in banking, in finance and he's an analyst at A at essentially a hedge fund. And where is that hedge fund? They're both here, Yeah, both our kids in l A. Okay, Yeah we did meet at A and M for sure. So but let's start with today. What makes Warner different from other labels with this? Yeah, the opportunity that that I've taken taken

on a Warner, you know, twenty one months ago, is unique. Um. You take one of the greatest record labels in the history struggling, you know, really trying to find its way, uh, and looked at it as an incredible chance to bring a great, great mark, a great great brand back to it's heyday. Okay, And what have you done well in the last twenty one months, Bob? We have changed so much to the label. We've we've we've flipped fifty of

the roster. We had a very kind of you know, album oriented, not urban, not particularly pop leaning roster, and we freshened it up with a lot of urban signings, a lot of pop signings, Uh, artists that weren't you know, dedicated to just putting out an album in the album cycle business. Some that remain are fantastic And if you think about the Chili Peppers and Green Day and Josh Groban and Michael Boubley, amongst others, their perennials. They're all timers.

You you know, you don't you don't turn your back on them. They're wonderful and uh and they have a lot of commercial um vitality in the market. Uh. But we needed to refresh the younger, the younger crop. And Aaron's come in about a year ago. Aaron Bay Chuck my co chairman and CEO. He's put my partner and together we were really calling together a fantastic roster. And so we've've also changed the attitude and the brand of the company. We have a new name, Warner Records, not

Warner Brothers, a new logo with Mark. We've got a new building which is spectacular. We invite everybody to downtown l A into the Arts district on Seventh and Sam a Heo and it's just a started seventh in Santa Fe. Just fantastic. New building was the old Ford Motor Company building. We've changed the entire senior management of the company and quite a few other people and we're bringing a fresh new energy to the company that really it hasn't had

many years. Okay, let's go back a chapter. You at r c A. Just before this, I was, uh, how did you decide to jump? Yeah? Our c A. We we had a great run at our c Peter and I took over the label in two thousand eleven. Peter, Yes, Peter Edge and a longtime friend and colleague of mine. Uh, and we put together a company there that I'm really

proud of, you know. Um. And there were a lot of things that led to it, I'd always but one of the main things I'd always I wanted to move back to l A to be with my family because our kids moved out here. It was time and as you'll remember, I left here in ninety six, and uh, it was time to get back to l A. Had always wanted to come back and talked about working by coastal, which I don't think is really a great leadership strategy, and especially when you're working at a turnaround, you need

to be right in the middle of things. Uh. In joyed my time at r c A. Got a lot of respect for the team. They're built the team there. You know. I was different part r S as an amalgam of a number of labels over many years. Uh, starting in in two thousand with Jay Records merging into Arris and so forth. Um and and that was a

tough decision. I love Sony, I love the management there, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to move back to l a and to to bring Warner Brothers back to and now warning Warner Records back to two It's Heyday to It's glory. Now are you the one who got Aaron bay Shook to come or was that already in the works when you made the decision? That was already in the works. It was a strategy that Max Lissada, who was the CEO of music group Max Um, put

us together. It was an arranged marriage. Did you know Aaron? We had met a couple of times, but I didn't know him. Um and admired him from a distance. Uh. You know, his energy is great, his his track record is impressive. Signing Bruno Mars working with some of the artists he's worked with over the years. Uh and just actually more than anything, just sitting down talking with them knowing we had really similar or almost the same values of what we wanted to do and uh and where

we where we weren't quite on the same page. We've called cobbled together a strategy and and emission statement and and and core values that are really working for the company. So what does he do and what do you do? Uh? In the simplest fashion, I'm the operating guy in the marketing and promotion guy, and Aaron is the creative guy

and signs in A and RS the acts UH. Together, we we work with our business affairs had Julian Petty and we do the deals and UH and and you know what, Aaron is the guy out finding and and and and recruiting the talent, making the records, finding great A and our people, um, but you know, the best companies. And I think Peter and I had a good, really good relationship that way. Great and our people also have real good marketing instincts. Great marketing people have great A

and our instincts, and Aaron embodies that. And as we forged together the relationship, I'm really seeing the best of him come out. Okay, even though it's more under his purview. What is it like being an A and R person today? Because certainly in the old days it was about discovering things. Now everything is available on the internet, So what what do you what's the job of the A and Army of today. I don't think the job is essentially changed.

It's to find amazing artists who make really stellar records that hopefully become hits or they become something more more more cultural, if you will, and and and kind of set a tone for for music and and and for great artistry. And there's room for that at great labels still, um. But essentially it's it's making great records and making hit songs and finding and creating stars and and you know.

So that's that starts with the A and R Department and the people that are out there doing the research and going to see acts and and you know, and and it isn't it isn't always the ones with the with the greatest data that that end up working, you know. But that's that's it's a very data focus, data leaning approach these days. And but at the end of the day, more than one label usually has the same data, more than one A and our person is usually checked out

the act before we go deeper into the data. UM. Having had a long career and most of it at the top, have you ever directly signed an act? I have? I have a few over there is Pentatonics. I was. I was heavily involved with signing radio Head to the US label at the time, UM, and and kind of led the charge on that to Capital when Halmilgram was running it. Uh, you know, and on and on. You know, I've I've and and i've and I'm always involved in in in I'm not always I'm almost always involved in

everything that signed. Le tell us the story of Pentatonics because that was certainly something from left field relative the traditional record business and was ultra successful. Yeah. Look they had there, they came off the sing off they had you know, nobody picked him up that it was a direct to Sony sort of relationship. Um. Other labels had passed on. In fact, we passed on him a number of times. For those who don't know. This is an

acapella group. Yes, a very unusual group who now doing arenas and and have our superstars you know, and wonderful people as well. Uh. They I've been watching them for a while and and and and Linny Beer had who Yeah, but he co manages them with Jonathan Caulter and and the Hits management team does it. Had brought it to me a couple of times and I've taken in the CD A and R meeting, and I got the answer I expected, which was, Hey, this is great, but we

don't get it. We don't know how that fits into what we do. And at some point what happened was we just saw what was going on at the time at iTunes that their Christmas EP was going off going, so they put that out independently. They did how long after the TV show that was about, Well, it depends on which piece of product, but at the time we looked at it, I believe it was about three years after after they were okay. So it's just funny that

there's that much, you know, stickiness in the marketplace. Yeah, well, they broke off a YouTube Initially, they had their own YouTube channel. They were like a top twenty YouTube music channel, and and everyone was sort of like not liking them. They weren't they weren't they weren't sexy or ed g

in the way that labels generally look at things. And and so I've always had a marketing as you know, my I'm a marketer by by training, and so I looked at it and eventually I just went to Peter and I said, Peter, I'm signing this, and he was very supportive and he said, okay, great, I hope it works. You know, I said, it's gonna work to some degree. We're not gonna lose money because you can see what's going on here, and because I like to think I'm

a pretty good marketer. We knew what to do with it. The team bought in, Uh, well what did you do with it? Well, you know, we we did the things that they were incapable of doing in terms of maybe funding or having access to the right things. And ultimately it was making sure that you know, the product was was well explained to retail at the time because a lot of it was was physical that we already had a partner in Apple and iTunes, who were very supportive.

Amazon had at that time was was you know, more physical leading, and they they really saw a market for it. You can imagine with the Amazon consumer being maybe a little bit older and a little bit more mainstream and a little bit where our center of America not coastal and hipster leaning, that was a no brainer for them. Up in the YouTube was an incredible partner. We doubled down on YouTube and video and the way you go about it and so forth, and we just for those

who don't know. When you're in the belly of the beast, how do you double down on YouTube? What does that look like? Well, you know you can you you dissect the algorithm. You look at all the different various touch points where you can reach an audience. You have data and information. It's a little bit slower, so what might

those touch points be? Uh, you know, different YouTube channels you g C opportunities that you know you can you can point to and and have people do their own kind of versions of videos if you will, or whatever happens in the u g C page really slow. Okay, you have something you want to work. It has some traction. So then you search who has a good audience on YouTube and approach them. Yeah you have you did the research.

You didn't like audiences where they're sharing, where there's some crossover, and then you put these these Then you pitch these videos for playlisting or whatever within the YouTube you know ecosphere. And it's changed a lot since then, but it's essentially let's jump. Yeah, then that's how you would do it. Now it's, as I say, since that physical error is essentially over, how do you deal with YouTube. Now, um well,

YouTube is a great partner. They they they they are the you know you you you you like anybody you introduced them to. The artists you get you get them the information, You get them excited about about the content, and you differentiate the artist from one another from thousands

of other artists. You might be, you know, a band, or a white female or an urban person or you know whatever, whatever they whatever, the kind of category you put them in, and and and and and obviously you know, they've got to get excited about the music and the content that's presented. Because we're storytellers, you know, we're brand builders. At the end of the day, we work very obviously, we work with the brand, which is the hardest product.

And you know, we sit there and say, okay, well you are you you you are similar to these sort of artists or these sort of you know records. And I always say, you know, I know you're totally unique, but what do you sound like? That's right, what do

you sound like? And what what are you about? And you and with everything going socially today, you know, it's ultimately all about the music and the content, but it's also you know, about the story, about the conversation that they're having directly with their fans, you know, and then we amplify that, you know, by by going to places, whether it's playlisting that they can't get because they're not necessarily aligned or can't get in the media. Let's just

assume that just stupid. Let's go back one more chapter though, so it tell us the stories signing Radiohead. Yeah, well Radiohead. What happened was it was passed on by every US label in the EMI system at the time. Um, everyone was excited about other acts. They were a little more

already creep was. It was a modest hit in the UK, and then all of a sudden and it's it's it's such an old school story, but all of a sudden, Live on A five specialty show started playing it in San Francisco, and we noticed because I was trying to get it signed to to Capital, and so I went to my wonderful US at the time, Hill Milgram. I said, hey, Hale, you see what's going on over here. And there's a guy named Rob Gordon who deserves full credit too. We

were both excited about it. Now he switched to Warner Brothers. Where's Rob today? I think Rob's freelancing. I think he's a consultant. Um and and Rob and I got excited and said, do you mind if we take uh, if we take five thousand CD singles and see the market in the Bay Area And they sold out immediately and then the rest is sort of history. So did I signed them, pick them up? Whatever? Okay? But I was very I was very instrumental doing okay, But did you

have an inkling of what they would turn into? No? I thought I thought they were great. But you know, Pablo Honey is a good It's a really good album. It's not their best album. You know. I'll let everyone argue about whether each one it is. I mean, they're all they all have their own special place in folks hearts, but they but Tom was special. The players in the band were really solid. They were growing as a live band. Uh.

They had a point of view. And and when the Bins came in and we heard that album, uh, it was like, oh my god, this is a great act. And uh. I left shortly thereafter and moved to Columbia. But I'm really proud of the band. And they were wonderful people. And and the two managers were terrific and we had a great time. And you know they've gone on on to do to be radio ahead. And let's stay with that for one second, because a lot of bands with longevity will say I signed and everybody was here.

I'm still at the label. Nobody I ever had any business with its still there. So what's that like when

you're trying to convince people to go with you? Yeah, you know, well, look I I point out that I was at at our c A and some version of it for almost twenty years, you know, And so I'm not a guy who's bounced around a lot, even though I I had an average in my first you know, maybe fifteen twenty years of my career of every five or six years moving labels, which you know, I think for a young person in the business is not a

bad strategy. Get different experiences, work with different people, make relationships, um and and and have more than one way to do things and and labels are different and experiences are different. Uh. But and then settling down where I really enjoyed the whole process that that I experienced from two thousand to two thousand eighteen of of being in that system, and I liked I liked the BMG and Sony systems a lot.

And I think that that that they were very good to to to what I was trying to accomplish, which was, you know, helped create big stars and big brands and nurture the ones that were on their way. Um, and we had a great team. I worked for some of the all time great people in the business, you know. So I uh, you know, you know that process was was really a lot of fun. And um, let's get back to the question I think I've lost. You know, you said you were there for eighteen years and I

sell artists. Yeah, Look, I tell artists is like I'm a stable guy. I plan on being here for a long time, you know. And uh and and because you know you as an artist that that you know, you're sitting there and it's there. They're on their own, you know, in a lot of ways. They're they're the brand, they're on the marquee, they're on the on the top of the of the package, whatever that looks like, whether it's

digital or physical. And so at the end of the day, you know, whether it works or not, it's on it's on them. And what happens in the meantime they have to own. So so my pitch to them is like, look, I plan on being around Aaron plans on being around here for a long time, you know, and uh and and so our expectation is that will be going through many cycles together, many ups and downs, but that will

have some measure of success and satisfaction together. Uh, you know, and and and that doesn't always work out, you know, people change. And I'm the whatever, i am the fifth leader of of Warner Records, Warner Brothers Records. But you know, what I'd like to think is that my track record will help and my success will help pave a way for a really stable company for a long time. That's actually,

that's actually okay, let's really slow it down and start. Okay, I'm an artist, Okay, we'll make it really left field. I'm a very successful klezmer artist. Will you sign music in any genre or music that you feel is the easiest to market to the largest segment of the market, which now is basically hip hop and pop um. We may not sign the klezmer artist, however, you know, we're we're interested in artists that move culture. We're interested in

artists that move units. We're interested an artist that want hits and want to be global. Um, we're a big major label. So we have a new mission statement art plus impact art representing the scrappiness of an indie and the ability to be open to different forms of music. So we're generalists in that sense, you know. And at the same time, we're we're we're we're broadly generalists and globalists that we want to create an impact that an

impact of a major can can can provide. So therefore, the short answer is we're open to things that can really move culture and move units and and be big global Okay, talking presently, let's just say I'm a rock band. I have fewer than a million streams on Spotify, and I don't have a big audience on YouTube. But when you when people see them this act, they say, this is unbelievable. Yeah, what does what does warners say that? I think we? I think we. Then it's a value judgment,

you know. Then it's like, do we have a vision? Do we have a shared vision for this artist? When we sit down with them, we're excited about them, we see potential. So it's old school A and R. You know, it's old school marketing. It's like Hey, do we see a path for this artist that maybe not everybody sees, you know, and everybody has their own unique lens that

they look at artists through. Because once then, by the way, even if the data is great, you know, and the data points you in a certain direction, uh, there are a number of labels that won't go after something they have because that then it comes down to the taste and the culture within the label and where the artist fits and do we have a point of view, do we have a vision for this artist and does is

it shared with the artist? And so you know, there are very few artists that that all labels go for, you know, and for different reasons, but a lot of it is cultural. They just they don't mesh up nicely. You have a good meeting with one label, you have not such a good meeting with another label. And so from our standpoint, you know, it's can be data driven, but at the end of the day, we have to feel the music. Okay. So you stated earlier that you've

uh moved Warner more into the urban sphere. So if you look at the data today, if we look at Spotify top fifty, that is almost all hip hop and pop and for those people who don't make that kind of music. Is a major label the right place for them? Are you interested in them? So that we have an artist, Suburban that we signed right now and and which is streaming like a growing pop hip hop artist, but he's like more rock leaning, you know, and now starting to

try at alternative radio. So okay, so let's start with that. When you signed Suburban, what was the status of both the act and touring and data, etcetera. It was just a song that an Indian put out that we noticed that was that was that was streaming, that was moving. It wasn't six million globally like it is now, but it was and it got our attention. And then you get into the qualitative part of it, Okay, the subjective part. You know, we thought that we heard a couple more songs.

We were excited by that, we've met the kids. Okay, just to be clear, someone on your team just found it. It wasn't like you were pitched by a manager region. It was very early and there and and and the song it was with an indie called NCS out of the UK, so we had to go through that as well. But one of our and R guys Stephen Max cited it, picked it up, somebody tipped him to it, He dug in deeply. He went out and met the artist the whole thing and brought it in and said, hey, I

want to sign this, and we shared that vision. And then we when we met Suburban the artist, we thought he was terrific. He we thought he had potential. He played a couple more songs, told us his vision for his video of Cradles that just dropped a week or two ago, and we thought, yeah, we we believe we share that vision. Okay, if you sign an act like that, is it a traditional deals shall we say, pre internet?

Where you get a royalty depending on whether it's wholesale retail, you know, twelve to twenty or is it more of a revenue split after costs? What? What is? There's no such thing as a standard deal, but someone in that position, what kind of deal might they be a? You know, to be honest, I don't remember that specific deal, but

there's there. There's all sorts of deals that can happen now and it depends, like everything, it depends on what you want, how that fits with our economics, What leverage you have, what leverage we have, you know, and and and how you're positioned within within the genre, because there's certain genres that are leaning more towards ventures now where others are more royalty leaning um, which which more hip hop, more hip hop, some pop, but more hip hop because

hip hop, those are leading in which way a little bit more venture, a little more profit shares. But there's exceptions, you know, and and and and we're not you know, we're open to whatever as long as we have a fairly you know, long term you know, um investment or a long term relationship with the act over you know, four or five albums. You know, we'll do we'll do lesser from time to time, but our feeling is that

this is a long term relationship. We're going to build a lot of asset value together, and you know, we're gonna invest and you know, you know, the odds, the odds are that it won't work, you know, and and so but we're going to go in and seven figure level and in almost every case, and and you know, sometimes high seven figure levels before we really see what we've got. And and we're up for that. So we want to know we're in it together. Forget the Bidding

War Act the average act at this point. You know, people don't use this term that much anymore, But is it going to have to be a three sixty deal? We prefer those and and look at the view on that, and they're not as egregious as they used to be when people are taking of everything that that I haven't seen for a long time. Um, we have a longer, more partnership approach we have. We do have a merch company and an artist called Artist Services. They're very good

at what they do. They handle both artists within the Warner Music Group and outside. So we feel we can scale that in terms of the requirement if you don't have a merch deal to sign with your house is not it is not. We'd prefer it, and but it makes things easier on on on a DTC level, on a v I P level, on a merched level, we can we it's more holistic and and and there's a there's a shorter line of communication, that more efficient line

of communication. Okay, So I've always wondered people might say, and I'm not who I'm talking about history as opposed to you, and uh, specifically that royalties are not that accurate or get paid by the labels, How does the label ensure that they're not screwed by the act I'm touring in whatever other income there is. Well, we have we have language in the agreements that we expect people to honor. And at the end of the day, there

are acts. Most acts do pay you and there and they there's there, they step up and there may be some accounting that that is might be missing a piece or two from time to time, so you have to sometimes have that conversation. But by and large, the acts or stand up acts and the ones that choose maybe not to pay you, there's recourse, um, you know, and and you'd prefer to avoid that and just have a

straight up relationship. Um, but you know, there's future advances and royalties and this and that, and you might have a language in the deal that says, hey, we can recover you know, unpaid three sixty revenue from somewhere else. Um. It depends on the deal, It depends on the label and when it was done, you know, but we'd prefer not to get Okay, So let's just assume I have, you know, a three album deal within five years and it plays out and we both decide to go our

separate ways. Let's just assume you own the Masters, Okay, uh? Is there are there any sunset clauses or anything on these other streams of revenue. There may be, you know, there may be, but more likely when when our deal expires, it expires and you move on. But there may be a sunset clause depending on the nature of the conversation at the time of the deal was done. Let's go to the other extreme, someone like Little Nasax, someone who's blowing up traditionally hip hop acts in the last thirty

six months. The data is there, they're streaming, they're part of are is that something you're interested in getting into? I'm sorry, something that has proven itself such that they are willing to go with a major label. But the deal is going to be harsh. Yeah. Look, and by the way, that the deal for a Little nos X wasn't harsh, you know. Um, But look, we have an act called n l E. Choppa and Choppa had a track called shot a Flow, or has a track called shot a Flow which blew up and it was on

an indie called United Masters. And you know, but it was one of the United Masters what's his name? Yeah, so so, but he didn't really have any futures, you know, he had a he had a short window. Um, and so we went after it and and and it was a very robust deal and at the end of the day we penciled it out and we got the deal. Um. We developed. We believe in the kid. We think with his name is Bryson. We think he's a star and just dropped a track in a video called Camelot, which

is exploding million streams a week globally. He's he's a video you know figure. He just reacts video wise as well, and we feel like we got one, you know. Um, but he's it's a little early for we're now crossing in into urban radio. It's more of a traditional move in that sense. Little Nazex has proven to be more of a pop facing act at the moment. We're very envious of his of his success and excited for for Columbia.

But you know, we feel like, you know, we've got a couple of our own that we're building as well. But we're up. We're up for picking up quick hits. I mean absolutely, we're in that business. But we're also in the long term artist development business. Okay, but that you're signing more urban artists as opposed to the old album cycle. So let's assume you signed an active urban urban and pop. But at the same time, we're broadening. We're a full service company. We've signed rock acts, we

signed you know, we're we're open to just great artists. Okay, So let's but just for the sake of discussion, well, any new artists you signed. Okay, in the old days, everybody wanted to make their album. Let's just assume I don't have incredible traction in the marketplace. What is the label going to say relative to product? The label is gonna say, let's we're gonna air on the side of

putting out more product than less. We're gonna do it in a way that is customer bespoke to that artist trajectory. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it, uh my British relationship. We're gonna do it in a fashion where we feel like we have the story and the content build around it that makes sense. We're gonna learn probably more a track by track and maybe an EP or

a mixtape depending on what genre it's in. Um and but albums are albums still matter because albums become sort of the anchor in most cases for the artist brand. You know, what do you name the tour? What's the theme to what the artist is doing at the moment, What are this what's the storyline through the album? In many cases, that is the narrative that takes this beyond just music and and and just a video. So it's talked about socially, it's talked about in fashion. Remember, these

artists are brands. They have they have they there are three and there are three sixty brands in the sense that they can do once they're established and they don't even have to be that big start working with brands and being considered for film and TV, and you know, it's a it's a multimedia kind of marketplace now and we need to to to keep that in mind whenever we do things. So the the the cycle you know, is always on. However, you have to have a reason

to come to market with music. You can't just put it out in hope. And so that's where we work very hard, and that's part of the brand building and the narrative and the storyline that that really is the essential part of like why this artist, why now? Why this music? Why this video, et cetera. What's the story. Okay, let's just say you have an artist and a new artist real watively unknown. Is it basically fishing? You put out single and single and then once if hopefully you

get traction, then you work on that single specifically. Um, that's one. That's one strategy. Yeah, And and that's that's a fairly tried and true strategy. And and what you're doing with the singles, you're not necessary or the songs or whatever you want to call the tracks. You're not expecting everyone to be a single single means kind of your you're you're out with the expectation that it's some form of a hit. You know, you're you're, you're Sometimes

you're just telling a story. You know. We might be out with a single and put out a couple of tracks because maybe that maybe that single needs sort of sustenance under it and more of the artist conversation, something for the artist to talk about while they're while they're working the single, something for the fans to relate to, or it has a different reason. So it's all, it's

all custom, it's all, it's all individually done. Okay, Now, my friend Richard Griffiths who managed One Direction and still manages Nile Horran and a million million other people. He said, a stiff no longer hurt you. That if you put out a single it doesn't succeed, there's no tarnish your career as long as you come up with hit thereafter. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think I'd largely

agree with that. But I would say, you know, failure always stings, and and and and and it always hopefully it's a learning moment and a learning experience, and you don't double down on something that didn't work. But but you've got it. You can't have too many failures in a row, you know. And then, because I think, then the question is are we doing the right thing? Is this the right music? Is this the right artist? Is this actually somebody we can scale to your point earlier,

our point earlier? Failure is the norm, you know, success is unusual when you give up. Okay, So going back to the I didn't really formulate this question back to the Spotify top fifty, which is essentially hip hop and pop. Well that I know you're a full service company, but would you leave that way because that is definitive of a lucrative marketplace. Well, I mean we have to be competitive, right,

we have to. We have a I have a p n L to to meet, I have a budget to to serve to our our owner, you know, and and and and our team, and so of course we have to be we have to serve the market and what the market wants. But you know that doesn't mean you're just I mean, what the mistake we could make was just doing the same thing that everybody else is doing, going to try and to find another little naz X or whatever, who's a needle in a haystack, by the way, I mean, I mean, you know, but we want to

find something that we think is next. Is next in hip hop and pop and and you know, pop and hip hop and music mute mutate every day. They mutate all the time, you hear it. Sounds come in, flavors come in, hairstyles come in, you know, fashion comes in different ways of breaking things. TikTok didn't matter a year ago, it's now it's now pushing artists up into the ecosystem

dramatically and quickly. Um So, yeah, but you know, I wouldn't be surprised if the next thing that came along with some new form of rock that that stunned everybody. I mean, I mean, it wasn't long ago. The twenty one pilots, you know, kind of just made this gargantian leap from from the alternative sort of touring business to having pop hits. You know, Um, I I see that coming again. You know it's it's definitely on it. So so you know, you can't chase after a genre that

isn't working. That would be fool harder. You do have to pay attention to the market forces, but you can't also ignore the fact that music and genres mutate and and red redefine and reinvent themselves. Well, certainly on Spotify were all the data of the terms of the number of streams is visible to everybody if they know how to extract it from the desktop. Although it's on the most successful singles on every app. Uh, that's hard data. How important is the Billboard chart to you? Billboard chart

is important? Um, it's it's it's it's a it's a measure success. It's marketing, it's advertising, it's it's a way to kind of look at your competition. We are a business. We have to have key performance indicators that we can show to justify our needs and also to pitch to artists and managers and lawyers and say, look, we're competitive, we have x number of records in the top one hundred. We have this sort of market share, this sort of chart share. This is why we're viable, and and and

and and and so it does matter. And do we live and die off of it every day? No, you know, because every day is a different day. We have different needs and goals as we as we move along. But charts matter, and charts. Charts are also fun. It's fun to be number one, top ten, good to be the king. It is. But what about you know, many people say there's manipulation on the chart now because people are bundlings. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yes, that's a form of manipulation. It is.

It is, it is official, it is we we all have opportunity to do it. UM. I don't think that it's artificial in most cases. I think that it's if someone's gaming it, then they're smarter than I am, and and that's not hard to do. But you know, being smarter than me not it. But you know, it's you know, it's unique that you can really drive that much UM product you know, you have to be a pretty substantial to make it matter to begin with. So so you've got to get there first and then you can figure out,

you know, what maneuvers you can make. But you know, my my feeling is like game on, you know, I mean, you know, as if the consumer is parting with their hard earned money and they're voting for their artists, and as long as you're not doing something that that is is untoward and and and and and you're gaming it, then then so be it. But it should be transparent. It should be clear what the rules are. It should it shouldn't war for every three months because somebody's lobbying,

you know, to get a number one. It should we know it's this and it's not that, and it should be very clear. And billboards making great strides to do that, Okay. And how important is radio today? Radio is very important today? Um, different in a different way than it was before because radio is a lot of different things now too, um because they you know, they have streaming capabilities. Certainly I

heeart does and and and XM serious. XM is is a great are great marketers, and they're they're great at you know, providing a really interesting service and what they do. Um and you know, when you look at what I Heeart does and and some of the other chains they they build out and have, you know, shows and TV shows and events, uh and brand affiliations, it can be

very very helpful. Um So, while while we're going through a phase where airplay itself isn't maybe where people discover music the way they used to five or six years ago, there's an element of that that is still there with a certain consumer that maybe isn't streaming or just loves radio and they love the theater of radio and in the relationship they have with it because as you remember, radio's local, you know, whereas you know, streaming is global,

and you know, and and so there's an opportunity at that raded that the smart programmers and smart marketers at radio have to continue to to amplify both the scale of what they've got and actually keep things local and and you know, it's a it's a different form of entertainment. But we don't live and die on radio quite the same way we used to. But in order to really scale a hit song, you've got to have radio. Okay, Now, in you know, decades past, a record could have less

than a two month lifespan on radio. Now the record can go for a year. Okay, how do you feel? And of course, Lizzo, the record is in the marketplace for a long time before it gets on radio. How does this affect you on your red I'm sure you're frustrated to throw on slots on these stations. Yeah, well look yes, but at the same time, you know, there, I don't feel it's that I don't feel we're that

challenged at the moment. I think it's always hard to get your song played and and to explain a new song, especially off a new act, and so forth and so on. And the Lizzo story is amazing. Hats off to her and to her team in Atlantic. Um. But yeah, I'd like I'd like it to cycle in and out. I'd like, you know, they're not to be thirty week number one records. I'd like, you know, we'd like to see it be more fluid. Um pop still is pretty good at that,

you know, um other formats alternative seems to take forever. Um. I don't think it's healthy for the formats and healthy for the it's certainly not healthy for the artists and and you know, for us, we're partners with radio, So I just think it's a challenge. They have to kind of think their way through it. But they're they're selling advertising, they're in they're in a different game than we are.

They need familiarity and comfort, and the listener wants it, needs to go there and and and and feel like they are being super served with what they want and need. Unfamiliarity is challenging. It doesn't It isn't always something that the consumer wants. Okay, So in the old day, certain publicity goals be on late night TV, be covered in the newspaper. Uh eight of those things work and be if and if they do or they do not. Where you focus your marketing efforts these days? Yeah, well, just

sit to answer the last part of that question. A lot of the marketing efforts is some form of digital connection, you know, a social connection. So whether that's you know, paid uh paid media to to bring attention to an act, or whether it's uh moving artists into a space or creating content. Let's just be a little you know, let's assume you're buying as your paid media. What would that

literally look like online? It depends on which on which which platform here which platform is, Well, we use all of them and and they're different depending on the song in the genre and how the artist moves and whether the urban or pop or let's start with the big cohuna Instagram. What might you do on Instagram? Well, instagrams, you know, that's more of an artist to fan, you know, relationship and and and and unless you know, we'll we'll

do some we'll do some paid media on that. But it's it's it's more of a of what you put up their content wise, so we'll invest in content, whatever that is. We'll invest in whatever that means the story, whether it's fashion one moment or whether it's you know, teasing the song the next moment or showing something from the live show. And that's artists driven. That's really that's really direct relationship, as direct as you can get from the artists to their to their following. You know. And

what would you advertise or do something on Twitter? Probably not we I mean, we we will do things on Twitter, and we won't advertise much on Twitter, um, but but you know, we'll try things out. And Facebook has Facebook still is relevant for a certain type of acts, and obviously they have the biggest scale out there and you can move the needle. We did it recently with Michael bou Bleg you know and and and what did you

actually do? We took some ads that that pointed to this song forever Now, and it was an activation that happened organically off of a mom's related site and there was a little bit slower taking the ads on Facebook and then what so, here's what happened. There was a

video for forever Now. Michael has a song out Forever and Now, off his last latest album, and the video was about essentially a kid growing that an empty room that changed as a kid grew old, and then the kid went off to college and the boxes went up and it happened to be picked up by um I believe motherly dot com a side directed to moms at the time when kids were going back to school, and so it evoked an emotion and it went viral, and so we were looking to spend that into more spends

it radio and more sales of the album. So we took some ads to to kind of to to amplify that that emotion, to amplify that video and to point to people, and then we got our press department involved so it was. I think Hoda was talking about it on the Today Show, and you know, we brought it to everybody's attention. That's our job, that's the amplification part of it. You might miss it if we didn't publicize it.

You might miss it if we didn't advertise it. And we have the resources and the staff to do that. You know, that's what a major label staying with a major label. Chance the rapper famously did not have a MA. But is c Suee generous? Is there just one of him? Or how often are you interested in the act? They say no, I want to do it myself. What happened very seldom. Chance appears to be a bit of a unicorn. They come along every so often and Pat more power

to him and his team. You know, we actually have a label deal with his manager, Pat Corkran that we just spun up this year and it's going well. Uh so um. But but to me, that's unusual. But but in terms of the scale that Chance achieved, But there are a lot of acts were being independent might work better for them. It depends on how they want to move, how they want to be flexible, whether they really want to be global superstars. Do they want to have hits?

They want to stare, you know, out and into that vast void and say I can conquer this. You know, it's it's a big undertaking and and it takes a lot of ambition, focus, and talent, and not everybody has all three of those. Now, let's assume you sign everybody's a go. What do you say to the acts about participation in social media? Well, it looks that they have to be natives, they have to feel comfortable with it, but they've but it's been really benefits them to be

in it. And I think it'd be very tough to sign an act that just said, hey, I'm not doing anything, you know, having said that, there's no rules, we'd have to see. Maybe that's the next great move. It's not to be involved in social media, but it would make it harder for everybody most likely. Let's just assume you had a campaign on one social media platform. Facebook is probably the easiest, and you didn't go viral. It wasn't a matter of you know, some other website picking it up.

Is that effective? Just pure like a pure advertising play? Um, yeah, it depends on the artists. Usually for something like that, that's very traditional brand marketing. It's like we have a known brand we're communicating, or a known artist we're communicating the new album that's coming out. We know where they're following. Is the research tells us this, The insight tells us

how to move of the analysis points to Facebook. You know, let's go where this artists fans are on Facebook and make sure they know that this album single video is coming out. Let's go back to the beginning. So you grew up where I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Seattle, Washington. What did your parents do for a living? My mother was a homemaker and my father was a math professor at the University of Washington. What professor, math professor, math professor.

I can't imagine that the University of Washington. How many kids of the family. Three? I have two older sisters. Well, one lives in Connecticut and uh and she's she's now full time mom. And my other sister, who's living in la is a lawyer since retired. So did your parents and your father is certainly a highly educated person. Did they impart to you a certain direction they wanted you to go in? Now, my my parents would go make yourself happy do something you love. And they never really

understood what I do, but they really liked it. They liked that I was happy. Okay, So how big a music fan were you growing up? Oh? Pretty big? But I honestly never knew it was a business. It never occurred to me like I could have a career in the music business. I thought. I just never thought of it as a job. And I kind of still don't, which is the great thing. So I lucked into it, you know, I looked into Okay, so you were you went to college where U c l A U CE.

How did you end up going to u c l A. I My dad said, you have to go two states away minimum and I'll pay for school, but you have to go to a public school, the best schools two states away. We're in California. And I got into u c l A. And because I was a big sports fan and I was also a soccer player, and um, I thought, I'm gonna try to make the team at U c l A. And I made the JV team for two years and that was a lot of fun and uh, but I always thought the U c l

A was the coolest school out there. And I still feel that. Okay, what was your father's logic on the two states away? He wanted you to go out. He said, Look, while you can be supported and we're not gonna give you a lot of money, but we're gonna give you enough to live on. You can figure out how life really works, and you're gonna manage your life. And you'll have a little bit of a resource to do that with.

Will be there if the ship hits the fan. But you know you need to go at least two states wis. You can't just run home every time there's a problem. Okay, how good a soccer player were you? Pretty good but not good enough? When did you realize you weren't good enough? Kind of the first day I showed up and there were players from the U. S Olympic team on the field, and I thought, well, maybe I fight try really hard, and and I had. I had great fun, but I

never was quite good enough to make the varsity. Okay, did you get playing time when you were in the j V? Oh? Yeah, I started every game. And then how did you decide I'm done? Uh? You know, I realized after two seasons the coach was just playing as scholarship players because I practiced with the varsity all the time, and I thought, I'm good enough to play on this team, and I probably was, but you know, it wasn't. Maybe one of his guys and all that. And then sadly

the assistant coach kind of liked me. Was this guy famous soccer coach. Later on, it turned out the guy named Ziggi Schmidt who coached the Galaxy and Seattle Sounders and the US Under twenty men's team, and he liked me, and I think he kept putting me into the pra this is and I'd mark out the forward and I was a defender, and I'd take care of the ford and do a pretty good job. And but but then I just I just said, you know, I gotta go

figure out what I'm gonna do with my life. I can't spend the whole summer and the whole fall playing soccer, you know, and then think about it the rest of the year. And so um, I went off, you know, looking for other things to do. But it's kind of heartbreaking to give up the dream. Yeah, you know what, it was the right time, though, And when you give up the dream, sometimes the dream has given up on you as well. And but I played. I played until I was forty seven. You know, really, you know where

did you play? All over the place? But last time at Chelsea Piers, New York five aside. Then I just realized as a step behind and about ten years too old to do it, and I hung up the spot. He played. He went to school at Clarmont McKennon. He played four years there is he is a good player. Okay, okay, So you go to U C l A and you drop out of the soccer track. So then you say, I want to find your way. How does it end up being music? Well between junior and senior year, Well,

let me actually rewinding. I was in a fraternity. A couple of my fraternity brothers intern at A and M Records, and they would come on the people we would know they are not They got out of the business many years ago. One guy never got beyond an internship. Um and then they but they would come home with albums and concert tickets and they always had a nice looking girl in their arm. And I thought, that's something I'm

interested in. But I just thought I'd do it as an intern and I was supposed to go do it a paid internship in the Justice Department and it got canceled and my parents and I said, well, can I just go to do an unpaid internship in d C? And they said no, we won't pay for it, and which which is looking back on it turned out to be exactly. And then that night I got a knock on on my door and about midnight and my frister

living at the fraternity. Living at the frat, my fraternity brother, Richard Creo, came in and he said, hey, you remember we talked about this thing a couple of months ago. Nine o'clock tomorrow, you're coming in with me, And I said okay, and kind of the rest is history. I was a wide eyed kid who didn't know anything about

the music business, and I was like, wow, this is amazing. Okay, But traditionally, especially back then, that was a very hard internship to get, really tough, really tough to irony was. I thought it was A and M Records, which this other guy had. It turned out to be I R S Records. And I had no idea when there was so, but I was a pretty big music So what year

are we in? Approximately one? Okay, so the police have already broken I R S is and know quant that's right, I and but I r S was just starting to break. Literally like the week I started. The Go Goes released their first single, and a year later it was multi platinum. But they weren't on the map as a label other than just being a cool new wave label. Wall of Voodoo, you know, the Cramps, etcetera. Wasmon arrees, I mean you

can go on. Okay, so you work that summer, then you go back to school and what go back to school? But in turn the whole year and they gave me seventy five bucks a week, thank you j Boberg and Barba Bowl and give me seventy five bucks a week

to um to hang around. And so I go to school less and less, and I'm hanging around more and more at the record lab, and I'm doing odd jobs over the week and driving the Go Goes around the concerts, doing things like that, things you do, looking after stings motorcycle because he was Miles was in and out of the business, and it was it was so much fun. And uh so I finished school and about a month or so before I finished school, they offered me a job and I accept on the spot. How much money

and what kind of job. Well, this is a great story. So Bobrick takes me out to dinner at s J and those people who watch uh Goliath. That's of course where Billy Bob hangs out. That's right. It's a classic old watering hole. So we're sitting there was their office was weird at the A and M lot. Yeah, so which is now Henston Studios. So we go down there to dinner and and Jay says, well, we'd like you to come be our director of merchandising. I think was

the first job, whatever that was. And I said, great, how much? He goes to fifty a week? And I'm think about it for a second, and I said, you know, j I didn't go to college to make less than three hundred. He goes done, Well, what inspired you to negotiate? I had to stick up for myself. But then I realized that it was the first bad deal I made. You know, I could have come up with an extra

fifty bucks. Although, funny enough, Jay and I remained friends, uh and and he said, you know, Tom, there there were weeks when I didn't get paid, so everybody else could. So it was probably you know, as much as he could he could spring for it and your parents were fine with you making three a week. They were fine, okay, fine, So you go to work and what does it look like? And you know, I'm doing everything. I'm I'm i'm merchandizing record stores back in the day when you would put

up posts. Jason how Jason Flam started to that's right, I'm taking inventory. I'm I'm putting. I'm putting clean records, commercial records and bands come through town into places like Aaron's Record and Vinyl Fetish and liquors, pizza and all that because they didn't always take our stock or they might be out of stock. We didn't ship a lot of records in those days. I'm I'm sometimes going to be Okay, let's say Erin's, which was on Melrose, they're

not stocking a record. You would go in there with cleans meaning there's no cutouts, doesn't show to promo, and you would just stick them in. Yeah. I talked to the doors of the store manager or owner and at the end these and I'd say, hey, look um, we have R. E. M. Coming to town. Who's that? Well, they have this the CP called chronic town. I don't see that you have this or you have one copy and and k Rock maybe he had just started to

play it. Rodney might have played it or something in a specialty shower or Casey R. Car w is playing it where they're just they're selling out this this gig. I need to put five in here? Is that okay? Sure you took all the revenue. They took all the revenue, but we got we got music into people's hands because we got no revenue at all. It was it was it was seeding the market. And so it was what you did. You didn't do it a lot because it's

not it's not every stainable Christinas model. But but if let's active comes to town, who was you know baby R e m you know, with Mitch Easter producing them, That's that's what we did. And you know, and then when sometimes it works, it's like the five thousand you know CD singles for Radiohead, Holy Ship It we got a hit. It's like, let's go and so and I did that, and I and I was I used to actually order all the merchandizing, get the art from the

art department ordered. I learned about printing presses, I learned about color separations, I learned about ordering and pricing things. I would then get all the stuff in being the merchandising warehouse, roll the posters up, box up the flats, anything out, ship them out to the distribution people to where I first met a bunch of people. Their names were on the on the mailing list, ship them out all over the US. They would then order more. I keep the inventory. I kept all the promos closet full

of promos of everything today who knows, who knows? And uh, hopefully collectible some of it, you know, I mean I probably had some highly collectible stuff in there. Okay, so how long do you do that job? And then I became, you know, director of sales, director of Go Sideways for a second. So who else was working there other than Jay who sustained Yeah, Jay, and Miles obviously on the company and Jayson, Yeah. And Barbara Bowen was a really

prominent figure. She was probably VP of sales. The world famous attack hamster Michael Plin, one of the great promotions stories of in the world. A woman named Kyle Heatherington who was also a great promotion person who left the business a while ago now, but she's she's lovely. A young guy named Steve Tipp and I started around the same real estate now but worked at Warner for a long time. Yeah, and Steve and I literally started like the same week or two and he went off to Warner,

and I was always jealous. He got the great, he got the great. So now you have a job, you're making your three week Is there a dream? Yeah? I want to Well, the first once I got over the idea after two years that I probably wasn't going to go back and get an NBA and get a real job, I then was like, you know what, I like this, Maybe I want to run one of these companies one day. So my ambition pretty much solidified pretty quickly. I'd like to be president of a meaningful record label one day.

And you know, I had I had shots over the years of managing artists and doing different things with digital companies, and I just I just stayed through the thick and in. Okay, so how long were you at I r S four years and then what happens next? Then I got the break of a career. So, um, I got a guy named Gilfrees and a legendary yeah, my mentor, my true mentor. Yeah, it was president of A and M and every so often he would hire someone to be his executive assistant.

These days that would mean secretary, all sort of administrative work that it was actually a management trainee position. And so Jeff Gold, Jeff Arof et cetera, Michael Leon, some guys who, to me, your legendary and we're also mentors and friends of mine. Still they were previously in that role. So I snatched at it, and I got a nice fifty percent raise. I was almost a forty thousand a year.

Uh then and uh and but it was I got to be trained by one of the great thinkers in our business, who was really way ahead of most people thinking through the business. He would work with people like Peter Drucker, the legendary you know, kind of the father of the new of the modern masters of business administration, um idea and a great a great advisor to many many titans of industry. Gil would work with him or he'd go think about this differently, that differently, And obviously

Jerry Moss and Herbalpert just legendary entrepreneurs. And and I got to like, you know, play sidecar with Gil for five years. It was remarkable. Okay, how did he pick you out? But he Jeff Gold right, who now says sols memorabilia. But started in your role, became a marketing guy exactly. He recommended me, and I think a couple other people, my cole and a couple of those people

were supportive. Um and but I think Jeff was the guy that sayd hey, Gil, you should meet this kid, and and we headed off and and actually the beauty of it is his his My wife was his assistant, so it's all in the family. Oh, keid, Okay, how long were you in the position working with Gil before it was a romance with your wife? A couple of years. A couple of years. She she started after me. I advised him not to hire her because she didn't really want the job, she told me, And then she ended

up taking the job and work. She didn't want the job because she was thinking she was only she's British, so she's Susan was thinking she'd only be in town for several months with her then boyfriend and uh, gets more compliment. Yeah, this is getting too personal. No no, no, no, no, it's it's a great story. Okay, Well keep going. Yeah. So anyway, she's working there for at least a year before we hit it off. And you know, and then and then it moved very quickly, and within like a

year and a half we were married. Okay, when you start to hit off, is the boyfriend still in the picture? Briefly? And how did it end? How did he get out of the picture? I think she told him it was okay, wasn't your wasn't on your shoulders? Well, only that I'm irresistible, but you know, other than that, you didn't have to stand up. He was a great guy. So I felt, I honestly felt bally about them. Okay, so you were there? Did Jeff Gold? Was he there? And that assist Jeff

left shortly there after I got into it. But did he do it for five years? I don't know how long he did the assistant position, but he was. He was a proper VP of creative and other things by the time I got there. Yeah, so you worked for your five years, which brings us to what year? Okay, and A and M was sold to PolyGram that's right, and Gil left and went on his merry way to do his great the great things that he did then and and they made me head of marketing VP of

Marketing and Jake so, uh, this was before Alcafaro took over. Yeah, I was right at the same time. So Al got the he at that time, I think either got the presidency or GM. I can't remember. He became the leader of the company day to day. I got the VP of marketing. Gar garen Od came in a few years before that to be head of artist development. And Jim

Jim was a really good friend of mine. Used to play basketball every Saturday, you know, at his house one on one and and he and Michael Leon and I Michael, myself and Michael Leon and there was somebody else involved, maybe Wayne Isaac, I can't remember. We recruited Jim into the company and uh he did very well. Okay, so he was artist development and you were marketing. Yeah, that's right. And how long were you there in that position? Only for about a year and then when he got poached

by I got poached by Capital. And how did you decide to leave the family? Uh? It was it wasn't Uh, it was it was time, you know. I didn't think that the new leadership was really the kind of direction that I wanted to go, and I could feel the company changing. And then I met hell Milgram at a dinner party who would come from elector to run Capital, that's right. And he was wonderful and you know, and then he offered me this great opportunity to run the

international department at Capital, and I snatched it. It was great. I didn't know you ran an international first. I mean, that's back then, especially you flew all over the world. I flew two air miles a year for three years. Would your wife say? She said, come home. I got two little kids and I need you home. But are you kidding? She was the most supportive person in the world. And obviously she had to be, you know, I mean because because it was just tough, because there were no

emails then, no cell phones. It was all landlines and texts and landlines and faxes, you know, And and it was tough. And after three years, Hail threw me a lifeline and pulled me back into run marketing at Capital. Okay, Now, ultimately Charles Coppleman and his team took over. Where did that leave you? Yeah, well, so Charles came in, um changed changed leadership, brought in Gary gersh And, and that was a very different perspective. And Gary's super talented guy.

He was riding the Nirvan Awave at that point in County Crows and whatever. So he came in and Gary had a very different approach to Hale. But I got along fine with Gary. Well what was just for those who may not know, what was the difference in approach? Um, you know Gary, Gary was more aggressive. He was more opinionated about day to day. Um. Not to say that Hall didn't have an opinion or a point of view. He was an A and R guy and not a

marketing guy. Um. He was more He was more about the band's culture, if you will, and all that, and and so I think I got the benefit of both of their best you know things. And after a couple of years uh with Gary, I got approached by by by Sony and and uh about about a little about a year and a half with Gary, I got approached by by Columbia Records, by Don einer Um. And it was a strange time because the north Ridge earthquake had

just happened. Yeah, I still haven't recovered him now and so and and and it scared the hell out of us. And in studios in Sherman in Sherman Oaks, which was the second most damage that code and so and we got a hundred thousand dollars with a damage in at our house. That was terrifying. We had two little kids, and uh, and then and so we were thinking about do we want to live here anymore? And and Donnie came in like maybe seven or eight months later and

offered me. I remember this is Columbia Records at the time, which was mighty, you know, and Big Red and its glory and Donnie is as the fearless Commander probably almost like and um, so you know, I I I thought long and hard about it, but it seemed like it was the time to go. You know. Our kids were five and seven and actually at that point six and four.

And then so I had to work another year at at Capitol and kind of work off my contract and then and then Gary was generous enough to let me out a bit early and I stepped into the war zone with Columbia records. What was that like? It was it was a major cultural uh like wake up call. Um was in l A. It wasn't uh, it wasn't Capital. It was Big Red and Donnie Einner was you know this, you know, the Sergeant Rock or the Demand or General

Patton exactly whatever. I want to say, and a bunch of guys in suits and who were number one or one. They weren't quite number one when I arrived. They'd fallen off for a year or two. And I think Donnie was under a lot of pressure. And and so is culture shock for me. Initially, it took me a good year to figure it out and to figure out how I fit in. And I didn't fit in. I was a little bit of of of you know, of an awkward duck there within that company, of an ugly swan

or whatever, ugly duckling. And and but I really saw though, an incredible machine and it's and it was exactly what I needed at the right time. And Donnie was a great leader. Now to what degree where you say you didn't fit in? How much did you feel the pressure? Tremendously tremendous pressure. Remember I was thirty six years old, you know, with a wife and two kids, and I waited a year to get there, and it was like, holy shit, this is hardcore. And Donnie tested me, you know,

and what would that look like. He's just a he's just a fear leader, a hard driver, an emotional guy, you know, UM intimidating, um inspiring, you know, uh, one of the great recordmen. Uh, you know of all time, and and and and you know, look at the track record you know, as a label guy, you know, he was incredible, you know, and he was he was polarizing. You know, it could be very difficult, but uh, you know, I have great respect for for him as a as

a strategist and an executing person who could execute. You're you're there when he gets blown out? No, I am later on. Yeah, So did you see that coming? You know, yes, and no, I mean, I mean I saw it coming because I had I was in a much more privileged position than many years later in two thousand five maybe. So what was your obviously you weren't insider, but what was your actual title? Believe I was GM of of j R st R, j R R C. I can't remember exactly. And and it was recently, you know, the

companies were recently merged. There were a lot of politics going on. You kind of didn't know which side it was to come down on, and it came down on the BMG side of it. And Donnie was a casualty and but I still kind of couldn't believe it. I was like God, that guy was like, you know, okay, so you worked with Clive? What was that like? Cli? Clive was amazing and is amazing. Um, and I have a lot of love, yeah, um, and a taskmaster and

an absolute perfectionist. And nobody works harder, nobody's more strategic, and he was. He would manage the minutia down to the font on the sticker on the album cover, you know. And and at the same time, I have the big picture in the vision to both create stars and resurrect superstars, you know. And and his his his and he's insatiable. You know, he's just incredible. So how did you jump

to Clive Terrista? I was recruited, you know, this is when it was Jake, this is when it was now before it turned into correct So I I was it aris to about six months, but as a Columbia Records company into my deal. Um, I was approached by by Arista at breakfast with Clive. And there's a guy named Charles Goldstock who's Clive's right hand guy. We need to knew each other. We work together. Charles gold Stuck today he's doing Hitco with l A. Read so and and

and so. Charles and I knew each other from Capital. He was a CFO there and so um, and it was time for me to move. I you know, I felt like but they offered me a much better job, you know, a bigger job, global head of marketing e VP, all this stuff, lots more dough, thank you very much. And it was a no brainer. Um, And it was time for me to go. And I think culturally it

was a much better fit for me. What did Donny say when you wanted to go, You're making a mistake, said, you know, this may be and and this may be the last job you tall, having the record business and all that. But but at the same time he said, like, what can I say? You're gonna go work for Clive? I love because that's right. So you know he was he was doing his best to to who convince me not to go? And then when it's it's apart, you go with Claive. I do. And but one thing about Live,

it's basically his way. What was it like working that way? I mean, when you came up with an idea and he wasn't so warm about it. I put a lot of winds on the board with Clive, you know, but because I understood how he how he thinks, and I and and and at that point I wasn't I wasn't as much of a kid anymore. I had my own confidence. And that's what Columbia Records gave me, the belief in what I could do. And that's what Donnie wanted. That's

why he would test you. He would test you to make sure you really believed that what you were doing was going to work, and then you had to go out and do it. That was and that was proof of concept, making me feel like, you know, I am I am maybe as smart as I think I am sometimes, you know. And and he didn't torture you if you fail. You know, he would tease you or goof on you or whatever, but he would always encourage people that to to go for it. And and but he you know,

he he'd guide you along. He was great. Clive was a different version of that, you know. And Clive, You're right, Clive had the vision and and got a lot of the credit and and and deserves you know it as well. But you know, I like to think I helped Clive win. Clive takes a lot of credit. We'll leave it at that. Certainly can't do without the team. So then how do you end up being a you know, the merger happens, how do you end up on top? Uh? Which merger

the Sony b MG merger? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, so there's a there's a lot of different Okay, we you're talking about just I can't eve remember did j we merge with the Arista before? What happened Arista? Arista, l A read came in, lives out, We start j Records, and you have a lot of success. We have a lot

of Thank god, we have a lot of success. Um we get Arista back A couple of years later, l A is losing a lot of money or aristas losing a lot of money, but he's got hits, you know, so that that comes back into the fold, you know. Then Jive is bought by BMG. Then Clive and Charles have oversight of BMG North America, which includes Jive, which Barry runs autonomously, but he reports into these guys. Um So in the meantime, I'm Arista, R C A and

J become one become our CIA Records. Essentially R C A, J R. Cier aris to J and Richard Sanders for a while is running R c A. I'm running I'm running Aris to j and then Richard. Then the merger happens. Richard goes off and runs international for Sony b MG. I then become GM of of of r C A J Arista. So you're the GM. How do you fly up to the next level? So long? So spin it up again. In two thousand and eight, Charles leaves the company,

Clive becomes Chief Creative Officer of Sony. Barry Wise takes over. He takes over m r C A Jive. I'm GM kind of. He and I hit it off great. I'm a big fan of Barry. He's quirky and smart, but he's a consummate record guy, very bright, very driven. Three years later, Barry ops to go to university. Um Doug comes in. At the same time, there's a change in management.

Doug Morris comes in. He uh looks at Peter and me and he says, Okay, you guys run it, but I'm taking r C A and I'm retiring JIVE and I'm making it just our c A. And so he gives us our shot. And I'm very grateful for Doug to give us our shot, because as he would he

said with a little glint in his eye. About two years later, he goes like, you know, I didn't know you guys are gonna make so And by the way, maybe we didn't either, but but through through his support and and and and believe we we believe in ourselves. But going back to Donnie's comment, when you go to Arrow sat, so this is gonna be your last job in the record business. For a lot of people, they

make moves and it is their last job. We ever worried that, Hey, you know, there's gonna be a game of musical chairs and I'm gonna be left out if I if I'm honest, I would say I always believe in myself and I didn't think that was gonna happen. But but if I'm digging down a little deeply, you are there. I'm you know, insecurity drives all of us. So I wasn't going to be that guy. Okay, So now we're in the present. Obviously you live through the

knaps Ger era. Uh sales went down and then of course in the last couple of years results of streaming, they've gone back up. So it used to be the record company was king, but now a lot of record companies if they buy any tickets for the show, very few. They're certainly not buying out clubs like there used to be. So where does the record company fit in the ecosystem today? Yeah, um,

that's that's that's the billion dollar question. But but obviously the record company is there for a lot of things that's always been there for, which is to to to for scale global scale, To work radio, which is very difficult to work if you're not in there. To fund on a on a big scale, big ideas and small ideas. To have expertise, to source to source talent both on the A and R side, i e. Producers, engineers, mixers, masters, etcetera.

Video directors, art directors, photographers, To be able to uh sit there and and and sync music on on on scale at scale, To be there every day with brands where when we come in with hundreds of acts in some cases at major labels, but to know who to pitch and how to pitch it. When one pitch comes in for one act, you know doesn't work for that act,

but we spend it into another act. You know, so, and and and and you know and and just as a sounding board, you know, as a sounding board is part of the team of experts, because the one thing I'll say about major labels is we're there with everybody every day through the entire food chain, for better, for worse, you know, and hopefully for the better. And so you you you gain access, you gain global access. You have an affiliation, you have people that are accountable to you.

As an artist, we're accountable to the artist. Um, you have a royalty department, you have business affairs, helps sort you through. Then with an independent label, you want to talk about not getting paid forgetting I mean not getting paid and some of the Look, I'm a big believer in independent labels, but you know, they're running a shoestring, most of them. It's really tough. And so just so in order to stay alive, they've got to have cash flow,

and we have constant cash flow. They don't always have constant cash flow, right never well the old days distribution there you couldn't get paid if you were an indie, that's right. But okay, so I'm an act. Tell me about the relationships with the streaming services. Let's start with the paige services, Amazon, Spotify, Apple primarily. How does a major label interface with those that's a that's a big question.

But um, your primary role is to work with the the the DSPs, the digital service providers to work on playlisting and making sure you're talking to the right editor with the right playlist at the right time for the right song for the right artists, you know. But it's much bigger than that. They have a big platform, they have marketing money, they do out of home advertising, they have in some cases radio shows, uh, podcasts and things and so forth. Uh, they if and and they're not

created equal. Some are affiliated with hardware Apple. Some are affiliated with with digital retail Amazon and have a tremendous program called Prime. And I think fourteen markets around the world might be more. You have You've got Spotify, which is a wonderful you know service both at supported and premium that is in a hundred and seventy countries around the world, you know, something like that. It provides a lot of access around the world. So they're all different.

And and that's again if you're one person or one artist to one manager trying to wrap your head around that and trying to get access. And they have boots on the ground everywhere, but so do we, you know, And and so you're you're you're just dealing with it all the time, and you're constantly in a constant, always on conversation about what to do. Okay, let's just narrowly done to one Spotify hypothetical. Yeah, do you pick and choose what you're promoting or do you believe there's a

playlist for everything? I believe there's a playlist for everything. Actually, So you have your priorities and your goal there used to get it on the genre playlist. Let's you know you have what would you ask for? Well, genre is the easiest way to describe it, but someone's lifestyle, some vibe. Because that's the sort of trick with what I called the playlist generation. You know, many of us do. It's

not they're not they're not beholding two genre. They may they may go for R and B, or go for hip hop, or go for pop or rock or whatever. But they listen to kind of everything because there's a lot of sharing going on out there, especially the younger generation, Millennials and younger they're used to their own mix tapes, their own they send things, you know, they do their

own U. G. C. Stuff. They have playlists that you know, that's right in different platforms that they and their SoundCloud, and there's this, and there's mixed you know, my mix tapes and all this stuff. So there's a lot of different ways that they could access music. And when you come back to Spotify, you know, Spotify has you playlisting ability for people to share and its social and it

does a good job of that. And and so you know, there's the idea that you know, we look at collection i e. People collecting songs off of a playlisted uh Spotify list and and and the truth is is that something like eight of plays are off playlists and sorry, are off off bespoke playlist saves playlists not off playlists generated boyl the DSP And do you have any uh knowledge how many of those are saved because the person listened on a playlist or they just cherry picked and

created their own playlists. I know there's data there. I don't I can't spit it out at the moment, but but I'm sure it's a combination of both. But I think a lot of it is you sharing your playlist with me and me going, oh, I like those. I didn't know those three records that Bob put on here, I like those or I hadn't thought of that from my list, and it fits into this playlist for my dinner party, or this play is from my drive, or

this playlist for my workout. Okay, so that's almost impossible to penetrate, right, Well, yes and no. It goes back to knowing your consumer and knowing where to find them, and and having the experience and the ability to reach them and communicate them. To get them to listen English in English, you have to be a good marketer. So

let's just be very narrow. If you want to reach them on Spotify and they're basically trading playlists as opposed to going through the genre playlists, you won't just reach them on Spotify. That's my point. You read them, You reach them through lifestyle, you reach them through social, you reach them through touring, You'll reach them through other you know, levers and odd platforms. So so nobody exists in a silo or not. And okay, but let's just go back

to your Now you're you're pitching Spotify. Let's just say they put something on a playlist. You're obvious, they're obviously generating data which is useful to you, But how long will they stay committed? Before they not working for us. It varies from playlists to playlists. If we're just talking that, you know, you can have today's top hits. I believe the average time is eight to ten weeks. You know, you have other playlists like Pop Rising, which cycle through

more quickly. You have Wrapped Caviare, You've got It's you know, It's lit. You know, they all have a different sort of um sort of mission in terms of what they're trying to accomplish. But they they're data driven. They'll look at some yes there's some curation evolved and the human beings involved, but they're also very data driven. So let's see there's burn. You know, they'll see there's the playlist, things dropping and as you'll see it drop down there.

But I say, let's say you you're something you're excited about they put it on these playlists, and they come to you one day said, you know, we're not going to leave it on the playlist anymore, and you're still excited about it. How do you deal with that? Well, then you could go to a different playlists. Maybe you were wrong, maybe it isn't that audience. Maybe you thought it was Wrapped Caviare. But it's really something else or

you know that sort of thing. And and so you might just pivot and go somewhere else, or uh, it's just not a very good record. So, uh, since you're in the belly of the beast, what is the most useful data that you've ever I'm done about specific kind of data that you've gotten from streaming services that is either very useful or surprising. Other than people listening primarily to their safe playlists. Yeah, there's a there's not I mean,

there's a number where do I start? But but you know, collection people putting stuff on their plus skip rates are that what are they skipping? When they're skipping? Is skipping at the beginning of the song or right at the hook or a little bit later in the song? Um? What sort of click rates? You know? UM? What kind

of likes people have? You have a sentiment you know, um, data about how people feel, you know, And so you try to sift through those words and and create because it's an emotional products, so you and and and that's particularly helpful on the first blush of something, whether you're just putting out something new from Dualipa or whether you're putting out something new from a fairly unknown act, but you find you have a very we have a sat

cave Town. It's a sort of a of a pop alt kid from the UK and very very emo and very bedroom pop, but very connected. And he's just sold out venue here, the Fonda, you know, I mean, he's going doing very very well. And we don't we haven't had a new album out in a while. In fact, his previous one was Indie. So we have an album

coming out and I think believe it's February. So he played there and and you know, you watch what's going on there and and and and so you know you're looking at the connectivity that that that that happens off of that emotion. You know, it's so emotional, that product. But you'll look at the sentiment meter around that and you'll say, okay, that's super passionate. That's like a lot of love there, you know, and significant streams in the twenty five million range, but not the million range. But

we're betting long on Cave Town. We're betting long on Robin has the R. So we'll look at that or Hobo Johnson, you know, another act out of Sacramento. Frank his name is and he's he's got the same thing. You know, you'll you'll see the passion behind what's going on there and then and then you morphounted off the service and see that he's selling out theaters and doing eleven bucks ahead and merged. Okay, there's a lot of passion behind them. Have we hit radio yet with a

song that's gone all the way? Not yet, but they're they're they're aware, they're paying attention. Okay, I saw you at the Rufous Do Soul uh show where they sold out the l A State Historical Park neighborhood of fifteen thousand. Uh. They have not have put out a record under your management? What's the plan for something like that? They have put out a record, they had what they had now they had last year and um and Solace is their first album with with the label. Came out more or less

right when I arrived, like four or five months later. Um. But they're one of my favorite acts around period. I just think they're phenomenal and they're they're building themselves into a stadium act with their with their live show, and so you know, the plan for them is is to tournament one of the biggest acts in the world you know, uh, they made they made sort of a they made Solace was was a was sort of a very personal album. It was a little bit of a down mood. It

streamed fairly well, it hasn't exploded. I don't believe we've really reached on on on the record label side of things, a new audience, um, but we really solidify the audience. But live, it's amazing what's going on. It was actually twenty one thousand people. It was their biggest show ever ever. And they're doing Ali Pally in the UK this week which is ten thousand plus. They just come off here of doing two Red Rocks at seven thousand plus, so

they're massive in Australia where they're truly truly stars. Um there. The plan is for them to get in the studio and make a new record that maybe is a bit more commercially leaning, but you know they're going to make the music they want to make. Okay, So would you give them input? Say this is a hit not a hitter on want my hit? Yeah, we're we're what we

always want to hit, right. I'm not when you say, hey, I don't hear it hit, but you know you hits hit Sir, you can't really just manufacture said there's a magic to it. You can there there are certain writers and producers that have formulas that they apply and and they work from time to time. But um, for an act that's that's self contained, like Rufus their proper old school band in that way, they they've been on album cycles, were just like, we we need more product from them

to come out when they're doing a great job. It's early days still for us in that in that kind of arc of their career, but we need more product from them, more music, more connectivity, and they're doing a tremendous job touring. But then we need to keep that virtuous cycle going. And and but yeah, you know they'll they'll go into the studio and and maybe they're in a brighter mood than they were on Solace because usually hits are pretty happy, you know, even if their breakup hits,

they have a brightness to them. Um, And we'll see what happens. But I'm not I don't want to put any undue pressure on them because I don't think that it's fair and I think that what's going to happen with them is the market is more likely to come around to them than them coming around to the market, and those are always the best. Longvity. Okay, to what degree we talked about socials, you ever have an actually don't want to make a deal. I mean everyone picking

and choosing. But someone say, like the old days, hey I my credibility. I don't wanna tie up with any brands or anything. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I mean less and less it doesn't happen. It's more, I don't want to do that sort of brand. I want to do the cool brand, whatever they whatever they think is appropriate for them. And we're fully supportive that. We never make anybody doing it. We can't make anybody doing Okay. Now,

Scott Cohn is a friend of mine. He works in your company, I don't know, chief technical officer or something, and he was telling about this new data plan and Zach with Scooter was going on with me about that. Warner has a new way of looking at acts, a new way of collecting data such that you literally know who every fan is of an act and you will monetize that relationship. I'd like to see. It sounds great, not something you're employing. Well, I'm aware of of what

you're talking about. It's in beta. It's in beta right now and I'm looking forward to and when we have there's there's there's an artist dashboard we have that we share with artists. That's new and it's really terrific if that's what he's talking about. And now he's talking about something you know different as I say, you know, he's a blue Sky guy anyway. So but we have the answers. So just before we wrap it up, anything you need to say that we haven't covered, because I tear about

the gear here, I'm wonderful. Um, yeah, we've covered a lot. We've covered a lot, but I want to make sure you get your say of anything. And I'm very grateful for the time in the platform. Okay, but as I say, you know, you're sitting in a different perspective from me,

so maybe there's something I don't see. Yeah, I just think that, you know, from from where I sit, there's a lot of people that a lot of people that have an agenda about undermining what labels do when major labels do, and and I think some of them can substantiate it to a point, but most of them can't.

And that labels so but but not notwithstanding that, the criticisms constructively are taken constructively, and we have to morph, and we have to change our skill set and retrain our people and get new ideas and innovation, and people like Scott will help with that. And we we are working very hard at Warner and Warner Music Group of you know, creating a different sort of channels so that that dashboard or that information you know, does come to light and is shareable with our acts so that we

provide a real added value down the line. And I think what we provide now is more than adequate, but we we need to get better. We need to get more integrated with the agenda, not just of the artists, but with our partners and what we're doing, and more aligned so that so that our place at the table is solid. It's explainable, it's transparent, it's understandable, and more than anything, it's we can implement it. You know that

we gets a couple of questions. You now, the unlike in the physical days, these streaming companies pay more frequently. So if I'm an act, let's just as sue, for the sake of discussion, I'm in the black, how often would I get paid the same six month period or would be moment, it's it's it's six months. Yeah, okay, so let's just go one step further. You talk about the major label. I am old enough to remember the days where if you weren't on the major label, you

essentially weren't a player. First, you probably couldn't afford to record, but you couldn't get on the radio. And if you've got me in the famous stories Bobby Womack and Beverly Glenn Records, he had a platinum out and put the company out of business because they literally couldn't collect the money. So we know there's more music being made than ever before. Okay, granted most of it is literally not listened to. If you go on Spotify, there are millions of tracks that

have never been listened to. So this vastness where the major labels there used to be six controlled everything. What do we say to the There are certain genres, like we talked about plesbur that traditionally the major labels are not looking for, But there was a time they put

out everything. They were the only avenue. Is there a what are your thoughts about all all these other scenes that the major labels are presently not in um They have they have relevance and vibrancy, and there's and now there's very little friction once you're a subscriber to Discovery and Too and to Access and they have to battle their way to whatever relevancy they do because they fight at a different weight class. But everybody there's a champion

of every weight class. You know, it just depends on which weight class you're in. Okay, so you would anticipate the main We have none such by the way. Okay. So it's an affiliated label to Warn't Warner Records, and they have wonderful acts. You know that Vagabond is just as a record that came out this week. I urge everybody to listen to it. She's terrific. You know. You have Yola, you know, which was produced by one of

the Black Keys. She's terrific. You know. At the same time, you have David Byrne on the label, you know who we don't have to explain David Byrne, Dewey, he's a wonderful you know, all timers. Let's just stay with none such So none such reports to you, yeah, okay, So certainly if most revenue is from streaming these days, we know those records tend to have presently very little streams. It's challenging, I would think would be very challenging to

make money on those records. So look, if you're looking at traditionally what none such did, Yes, they're in they're in a in a position where they're more fitting and pivoting into the streaming area. So that's and at the top of the agenda for the management they're having. Said that, though we touched on Suburban, who I think five years ago would have been just a rock act, you know

that was put into a certain basket. But because of what he's brought to the market, there's now a streaming story behind Suburban, and now radio is going to follow that or the traditional sort of outlets to go if none such none such hat. That's why I mentioned Yolo because I think where I mentioned Vagabond, none such as

morphing into that area. And that's down to A and R and marketing and understanding that that whilst some of their artists may struggle to stream, there's a new generation of artists that might not be that different from what

those artists are, but they're of a certain generation. They might be digital natives who know how to communicate differently or more efficiently, and their marketing and their promotion has to be on point with how the market moves today, and certainly all the genres you know, the audiences will ultimately move to streaming. Hip hop was there first, but you know countries, you know better streaming than average country

is better than rock. Okay, you've been listening to a comprehensive viewpoint of what is going on in with the big cahuna the major label world. Someone who's literally worked at all major labeled groups by today's standards. And Tom, thanks so much for being here, Bob. It's been my pleasure. So once again, that's Tom Courson, co Chairman, CEO O of Warner Music. Until next time. This is Bob website