Stevie Van Zandt

Were you always Stevie? Yeah? Okay. So one thing you mentioned in the book is an offend comment that if your finances were better then maybe you could have afforded children. Is this something you consciously thought of? Well? Yeah, to an extent, I never felt really stable enough to have children. I never gave it a serious thought as to, um, you know, should I should I find a way to do that or not? But as my life has unfolded, it's been rather unstable, and I really do feel one

should feel some stability before one has some children. You know my own feeling. Any regrets that you didn't have them? I don't know, Um, not really? You know, it's just it wasn't It wasn't in the cards. This this life, you know, maybe next life. I don't know. Okay, do you believe in reincarnation or you religious person or just saying that, I'm just saying that I'm not a religious person. Uh, you know, I just I really, I really don't have

any thoughts about it. I Um, I think it's probably because of my own arrested development that I never felt like I quite grew up myself. So I'm not sure I would never be qualified two uh for that for that very important role in life. Okay, you wrote the book, it's now out. How are you dealing with the reception?

I gotta tell you the truth. It's been amazing, amazingly well received, um, more than any album and I and I've always gotten good album reviews, you know, I got no complaints, but uh, this is something I mean, the response has been remarkable, to be honest, I mean I didn't expect that, you know, New York Times best seller List and uh, London Times and l A and every everywhere is doing well and uh and the reviews been spectacular. It's just one of those things that I didn't really

think about. I just did it. But but the results have been amazing so far. Great, And now that the book is finalized, is there anything that you would want to go back and change? Um? No, I caught a couple of errors when I did the audio book, you know, which uh makes me wonder if if if those things are done in the wrong order, you know, I think most most books have done that way. You know, you

do the audiobook last. I wonder though, if I do another book, I think I'll do the audiobook first, because if you find I mean, we've been through this thing seven eight nine times, me and my editor and my publisher and so many and others, and there was still like a dozen mistakes left in it, you know. But so that was nothing nothing major, nothing making it was a grammatical mistake. It's just through a stupid stupid things. Yeah, nothing, you know, there was there was one serious thing where

like the wrong album. Uh what was it? Uh? Uh you know somebody, some some bands album was was the wrong album which uh, which wasn't my mistake, it was it was made by once. I mean, you you know the process. But once you go through your own process, it goes through an editorial process with the publisher, and sometimes they will change things thinking that they're correcting something when they're not. So it's all very very The book world is a trip, and I gotta tell you the truth.

It's a different it's a different world, and it takes some it takes some adjusting. You know, you gotta you gotta give up some of the usual total control that that I usually demand. I mean, I just I just did eight days in Europe and the book is different in every country. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna try and collect them all because you know, I mean, there are there are countries that change the title without mentioning it to you, like damn, that's that's different. You know.

So you know, you work very hard to get everything exactly right. You know, when you're making albums, you know that everything from the art to the graphics to you know, you name it, and to go from country to country and having it would be different every single time has been pretty pret remarkable. And you know, one country left off the Dylan blurb, you know, one country left off the McCartney blurb. You know, you know it'll just change

the title. Okay, you have all those blurbs in the book are you self conscious about asking for those or you have no problem. I didn't ask. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it, you know, Um, I don't. I didn't ask anybody. I think the publisher, the publisher mostly did it. UM trying to think of either a publisher or my managers would uh would you know, talk to talk to people? And uh, my publishers said, have been you know, uh friendly with Bob Dylan's manager, and they

you know, they sent every single book to him. And it's the first time he's ever actually done a blurb that they can remember. Nobody can remember another Bob Dylan blurb. Somebody says there might have been one forty or fifty years ago for Alan Ginsberg or somebody. Uh. So that was that was beyond beyond belief. I mean, that was that was so so so nice of him to do. And I didn't ask, um, but I did send him the book right away, I said, I sent the book

to Bruce. So I sent the book to Bob because I didn't want it to be one of those books that you know, any kind of gossip or or I didn't want to make any Bruce news at all. And uh, some of the conversations with Bruce and Bob were intimate, private conversations. I wanted to make sure they were cool, you know, with those um and that has been the challenge in the book because I I know a little bit too much, you know, So it's a matter of what do you leave in? You know, what do you

leave out? And it's a little bit, it's a little bit. You're gonna be a little bit careful about that. So in those two cases, I thought, I want to try, I want to check with them, and they neither one of them changed one single word, which which was which was nice? Well, there's the code of the road, as we know. And speaking of the road, that's where you seem to run into Dylan in the book. It seems like you don't have that extensive and interaction with him

in your life. What is the truth now that we're talking. Yeah, he's just sort of a fantastic acquaintance. You know. It's not I wouldn't I wouldn't be so uh, you know, changress to say, you know, we're best friends, but uh, I don't know. I just think we we just had to like each other and run into each other every couple of years. Um, you know, we don't talk every day, like like me and me and Bruce do you know, pretty much. But but Bob is just every time I

see him, it's an adventure. And uh, I just I just thought that they're just kind of fun, this kind of fun encounters because he's just a fun guy. I mean, he's, uh, you know, he's in some ways he's very very normal, and in some ways he's just uh, he's just always surprising you with something, you know. So it's uh, I

just I just love the guy. I mean, aside from being so extraordinarily important to my work and everybody else's, uh and his place in history, but he uh, he's just one of those fascinating kick cats that that very proud, very proud to know him. And uh, but I don't see him nearly as often as as as I as I wish, I wish I could. What's your favorite Dylan album? Oh, it's got to be Blonde. I'm Blonde in the end.

I mean, you know, I like a lot of them, but mind I'm Blonde was the one that just, h you know, it's it was just the the ultimate, the ultimate Dylan album. I think a lot of people agree with you that's really the number one true fans. But I'm really bringing it all back home guy, because you know it's all right, ma, it is transcendent. And of course, at this led, at this late date, subterranean Homesick Blues is a big deal. Everyone talks about Highway sixty one,

but I prefer bringing it all back home. Yeah. That was that's the half electric catholic acoustic one, right, right, exactly? Yeah, yeah, I know, I mean, you know, maybe maybe skipping the first one, but you know, other than that, the first seven, uh, just remarkable. I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't argue with anybody. I mean, free wheeling, you know, times they were changing, you you, you know, extraordinary things on these records. I

mean complete completely. I mean, I know the words used too often, but they are game changers for the folk world. They completely changed the folk world overnight. And uh and then as soon as as soon as they you know, they were kind of reluctant to accept him because he was kind of radical, and then the truth they accept them. They kind of walked away and plugged in because but but but no. I talked about Subtorian Homestay Blues in the book as the single most important, you know, two

sentences in history of rock and roll. I think I certainly know the record. For those people who don't know the record, why don't you just give us the two lines? Well, the first the first line he's you know, he because Bob is a mixture of you know, playfulness and fun and uh, you know, just kind of uh, you know, he always he's always wanted to make you think a little a little bit and has you know, coming from the beat, poetry, the metaphor and symbolism type stuff, but

also just sometimes just stream of consciousness. And and he doesn't even he doesn't even intend to say anything. He just likes putting the words together. I don't think anybody loves English language as much as Bob Dylan. He just loves the language and loves to play with it. So the first line is is this kind of that a little provocative, a little little you know, which is Johnny's in the basement mixing up the medicine. You know, what

does that mean? I go through like five or six things it could mean in the book, but you know, And then the second line is the is the one I'm on the pavement think about the government well, what a weird thing to say to us thirteen fifteen year olds. You know, what do you mean? They're thinking about the government. Who would want to do that? Why? Why would you do that? You know? Uh, that was a remarkable thing to say in a pop song, you know, basically, and

uh it really made you think. And I've been thinking ever since. You know, Okay, let's go back to the book for a second. Your name is on the cover, but when you go inside the book as an editor, to what degree was the editor involved in the writing of the book, and to or to what degree it's all yours? I wrote every single word. And I try to think in the beginning because I read so many biographies and they all seemed felt similar because the co writer is doing the writing, and it's just they all

become very homogenized. And I just decided, I'm not it's not gonna be me. Um. So I um, I try to figure out how how can I how can I make sure that this is in my own voice? And I thought to myself, well, I'm a picture doing the audio book, you know, and uh, if I can, if I can write it the way I you know that I'm gonna speak it um, it might work. And so I explained to the publisher and to the uh, to my editor, I said, listen, this is not gonna look right.

It's gonna be not correct grammatically, it's not gonna uh, it's gonna be sentenced fragments all over the place. But if you if you read it the way I'm writing it, it'll sound like me, you know. And that's what I ended up doing. Uh, And um, I think it really worked because everybody the first thing everybody says to me, boy, I can really hear you. I hear your voice in

this and uh, that was very important to me. Um. You know, it was hard for my editor because he's a co writer and he had done some great books for George for George Clinton and Brian Wilson and Quest Love and I forget who else. But he's really a terrific writer himself, and uh, you know, and he did me a favorite really by by not by not co writing, and uh, but he was very very helpful in terms of the editing because I can digress, you know, with

the best of them. Man. I mean, you know, it's hard to make it hard for me to make it through a page without one story turning into another story, turning into another story, you know. And I wanted to keep it somewhat on the on the right path. And most importantly, I wanted to maintain a balance of the history because I witnessed every day except the first decade of rock and roll, and uh, and I got some thoughts on that subject, um and and I've been a

lot involved a lot of craft. So I wanted to make sure the craft made it into the book because I thought that might be useful, you know. And and then in the middle, it was the narrative, you know, So that balance of those three things was important. And that's that's what I told the editor to keep an eye on. I want to make sure that balanced between history and narrative and craft, uh, you know, kind of stuck together throughout the book. I want to wander too

far from from any of those three things. And and then and then, you know, when it came to whatever the whatever I was talking about at that moment, whatever the event was, or you know, you gotta you gotta provide a little context, you gotta provide some environment, you you know, provide what you're thinking in that moment. And it was a question of how much, you know, for each for each incident. That that's that's real tricky because

you know, you gotta provide some for us. The book becomes a list, you know, I did this, and I did that, and I did this and I did that. You know, that's boring, So you know you want to you want to make it. You know, I was hoping that would end up being more like a detective novel or Dan Brown book where they don't know what's coming next, because I didn't know what was coming next, you know.

I mean, the first half it's been a pretty pretty linear you know, local kids from Jersey makes it to the top and rock and roll, which is a great story myself, and you know, I'm not I don't want to sound ungrateful about that. That's wonderful, you know. But the second half, when I leave the street band and my life has ended literally, uh, and there's no plan and now I'm just wandering in the wilderness, I think

it's becomes more interesting. And now that the more universal themes start to emerge, I think, you know, the the search for identity and the search for purpose in life and spiritual you know, spiritual enlightenment and those kinds of things, um that everybody can relate to, right, I just want it to be a music book for music people exclusively. Yeah. Okay, so you had a book deal and you gave the money back. Right now you have another book deal. How

did you decide to actually do it? Was it has something to do with the time of the uh uh you know shutdown of America the world? Actually and what was your process and how long did it take to do? You one of those guys you know you sharpen your pencil every day at noon or whatever you started, So give us some of the story. Yeah. I think that the survey of quarantine thing was the biggest factor. I'm not sure it would have ever been done without that, honestly. Um,

it just was a perfect opportunity. Um. A big factor was the previous three years. Two that the seventeen eighteen nineteen happened to be the most productive years of my entire life. Unexpectedly got back into the music business, said that no plans to do that, Like most of my life was just not planned. I got back in, I put out two two albums which I didn't expect to do so Fire in Summer of Sorcery. I ended up releasing six album packages in those three years, which is

about as productive as you can be, you know. And and so suddenly I reconnected with my life's work, which I, you know, unconsciously abandoned for thirty years. Um, suddenly I was, you know, back playing my own songs again, and uh, I kind of appreciating them, I must say, for the first time, maybe uh the first time in a long time, appreciating them in a new kind of way. I just felt, you know, jeezus, stuff was interesting. It has a value

to it that, uh, I've never really considered. It's something about the you know, the genre I created, this rock meat soul thing that it kind of holds up in a funny way because it was never fashionable. You know, it was never trendy. When I did it the first time, it wasn't fashionable. So when something's never been fashionable, it kind of makes it timeless, you know, it gives it a timeless quality. And uh, and I just was a little bit, a little bit struck by by the by

the nature of the music. And I put together this amazing band, actually put together by my friend Mark Ribbler, put a couple of my old friends in it, and and and they just performed the stuff so well that uh uh, I said, well, it sounds so good. I mean it all. It all started with with with this promoter in London at the end of the street tour

two thousand sixteen. He said, when you come back to London And I said, well, I usually me and my wife's come back every Thanksgiving for her birthday because she loves London so much, but this year coming earlier for Bill Wyman's eightieth birthday, and he said, well, that's that's the week of my blues festival. Put a band together and and and headline one of the night. And I was like, wow, I haven't done that in thirty years. But more I thought about it, the more it sounded

like fun. I said, you know what, I'll bring back the horns and I'll be able to do some like Paul Butterfield stuff with the horns that nobody's nobody ever hears that stuff. I'll do some electric flag nobody ever hears that stuff. You know, I'll do some blue stuff, and then I'll do some of my own songs. And when I started playing my own, my own music, I was really really struck by it. So so we ended up well, let's let's let's make an album and and

the soul FA. I wasn't ready to write a whole new albums, so we did so fire h an album of songs I've written for other people. And by accident again somebody came by and gave us a sponsorship to tour. I had a TV show that I was going of fell through. Bruce decided to do Broadway. I had nothing better to do. Um, all right, let's let's tour it.

And we start touring, and then ideas start coming to me, and uh and Summer sorcery Man, a whole new album came out of a gift from the gods, you know, and and uh you know, and so suddenly, uh, here comes the Quarantine and I felt some closure because of that, I felt the mute musically, I had a little closure on that part of my life. And uh, you know,

I had new managers. First time I've ever had managers, uh, you know, which is many of the problems I run into in the book, because I never had managers or manager and U and one of the managers actually suggested at the end of the book, which helped me formulate. You know, Okay, I know the beginning, I know the end. You know, let's just tell a story and try and keep it to uh, try and keep it somewhat coherent,

because my life, uh, pretty pretty crazy. Okay, So you talked about reading all the biographies, you know, Ray Davies says Ray Davously saying, England. Give me two good reasons why I ought to stay. Tell me too. Music biographies that you think are great, Well, Bob Dylan's Chronicles has to be number one. Um. I thought Bruce's book were great. Um, and I liked um, I like Robbie Robertson and uh and I like Levi on Helms too. Well. One book you mentioned in the book which I love is the

Tommy James book. Oh, I think it's great, really great. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Uh he's uh, he's lucky to be alive. But I mean you know that that was that wasn't great when Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, okay, So how long did it take you to write your book and what was the process? About a year? You know, about about a year of the quarantine. I would say, um we um, we decided, you know, I wanted I wanted to treat this thing a little bit like therapy,

which which really was. So I I spoke with the editor I think three times a week for an hour or two, like Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. So I would write over the weekend. Um, you know, I would write and and then and then we would discuss it and I would write. You know, uh, just do that, you know, writing constantly and discussing it, like two or three times a week. Uh, for various reasons, you know, just to make sure again I was maintaining this balance I wanted, um,

but he was. He also was a good sounding board for what people might want to know about you know, um, because I gotta I go. There's a lot I kind of got a little bit too much in my head. So, um, you want to make sure you're you're not boring people or spending too much time on one subject, making sure

you're spending enough time on the subject. Um, those kinds of basic you know, limitations that you want to You want to have somebody you know saying you know, you're going a little too far here or not far enough there. So um, there was a almost a constant conversation with the editor and I really uh, so you know it was really a collaborator in a true sense of the word. Okay, how come you never had a manager till now? Well asked a big question. I wish, I wish, I wish

I knew. You know, I spoke to a lot of guys when I was looking for a manager for Jukes, because I was managing the Jukes in the beginning and I desperately wanted to find a manager for them before I left uh to join the Easter Band. And uh I got, I got I'm the greatest agent in the world. That was big, you know, getting him Frank Barcelona. But you know, our manager represents you, and uh, I was having trouble finding somebody that I felt, okay representing me

if I'm not in the room, you know. Um And I think it has to do with my aversion to money frankly and uh and people who's job it is to make money. I sometimes have trouble finding a common ground with with with people like that, and and and in the manager's case, that's kind of that's one of their main jobs is to make money. And you know what I mean, if I get if I get that sense that money is their priority. I uh I don't

trust it. I don't trust it, uh because for me, uh, integrity, dignity. Uh, certainly the art, the work comes first, has to come first. And I realized, you know, we're always trying to the great dilemmas, trying to find a balance between art and commerce. I understand that, and I you know, and I never found it. I mean, if anything, my life is the

triumph of art overcommerce. Uh. But I think you know, when I when I sense that somebody is just you know, in it for the money, you know, to some extent, it just turns me off. So I think that was part of it. You know. I just never they were quite fast somebody. I mean, looking back, that was that was a mistake I should have I should have I should have just picked somebody and had them do it, because a whole lot of opportunities were lost because because

of that and uh, not having a buffer. People people like the artist to have a buffer. They don't want to talk directly to you, you know, they just don't. That's just how the business works. They want they wanted they want an intermedia, you know, that's why you know, the networks. The other thing is, you know, you know, I've been through this with deals where they say insulting things.

They're just negotiating, but hit me emotionally. So since you made all your own deals, how good a negotiator are you? Certainly in retrospect, Well that's the problem. I'm very good. Uh, And it was hard to find managers that were as good. Uh. But it wasn't the negotiating of the deals that was the problem so much. In fact, there's advantages. There's advantages to the artist if you if you can get somebody to actually do the deal with you. Uh, there's advantages

to being the artist. And in that case because they don't want to say no to you, you know, so sometimes it actually is an advantage. Um. What's the biggest problem is there's not the negotiations as much as just not having an advocate. I mean, the gig of a manager is is advocate. You know. Uh, I can sell you all day long, Man, I can't sell me, you know, and you need somebody selling you. And asked that that's just the truth, man, And I never had that, So why do you have it now? Well? I got lucky.

First of all, I didn't I wasn't looking for a manager at this stage of the game and my agent, my music agent, one day just said, hey, I'm going to lunch with these guys. You know, why don't you come along. I didn't even tell me who they were. And they were just having a conversation. And at some point, you know, they revealed that they were you know, they were managers and and uh, at some point I said

they were interested in managing me. I said, wow, you know, you know, about forty years too late, but hey, let's let's you know, and I just I just liked them. I like, I just liked them both as two guys, and I liked them personally, you know, I got I kind of kind of got to know. I mean that one conversation before you know, before they became my managers. But I just kind of like them. And uh, and I thought, well, you know, let's see, let's see what

happens here. Let's see what we can do. Because I've always wanted to have a manager, So let's give it a try. Let's go back to the beginning. Okay, you know, you start Massachusetts, but you really grow up in New Jersey. What kind of kid were you? Were you the leader of the gang? You remember the gang? You're a guy off to the side, you have friends, you didn't have friends. I was a small kid. Um um, yeah, I wouldn't, wouldn't.

I wouldn't say as the leader of a gang. I probably UH had that inclination right from you know, birth, to be more of the sideman or the guy you know, off the side or behind the guy. You know. I don't remember very often, uh being the leader of the gang. Once in a while, I find myself in that position. I remember after seeing the West Side Story movie. Uh, we started having gangs in in suburban junior high school.

I guess it was let we see one of that fifty seven fifty nine when that movie was like six one, early sixties, right, Yeah, So I'm like cannon whatever whatever, whatever grade you're in, the ten eleven and I remember, I remember I did start that gang. And and and and during a lunchtime or whenever people went outside recessed, Uh, we would we would have knife fights with with pens, and we would write on each other, you know, whoever wrote the most on each other, you know one and uh,

and I was. I was the leader of that one. And of course we got busted and getting that a lot of trouble, Uh, but other than that, you know, I was kind of one of the guys. You know, my my neighbors were older. My one of my best friends lived behind me was a year older. So um, you know, the older guys always would be the more of the leaders in any situation. And I don't know, I just was like a lost little kid, kind of just waiting for destiny to speak. I remember hating being

a kid. I do remember that distinctly. I wanted to grow up and get on with it. And and then, you know, uh, thirteen years old and uh, Kennedy gets shot on my thirteenth birthday, your birthday, November, And uh okay, well let's go back to November, your thirteen. I certainly remember that day. Did you have plans to have a celebration party? Yeah? Yeah, and uh, you know, to show you how politically where I was back then, that's all

I was concerned with. It was like, you know, the party gonna happen or not, you know, yeah, but soon just after that, right, just four months later, you know, the big bang. Okay, wait, wait, wait, let's not get there for a seconds. Hey, good student, mediocre student, bad student. I was a good student, very good. Ever thought of you know, going through college, what your parents say, did you miss you know what we are your thoughts there? It was, it was a thought. My parents wanted me

very much to go to college. Um. I had a couple of advanced classes in fact heading that way, like calculus, believe it, and physics and the certain kinds of physics classes and a couple of couple of different things. Yeah. Um. Uh so at that point, you know, you're trying to find in the normal route into society. I thought it was gonna be college. Yeah. Okay, but let's go back to the earlier days. Beatles are in sixty four. Did you have a transistor? Were you a sports kid? Listened

to the sports? Um, not big on sports, No, but you had a transistory, remember getting a transistory? Yeah yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's how I heard the Beatles. Okay, you listening Were you listening to you know, this is all New York radio, w m C A, w ABC Tentendons. Were you listening to those before the Beatles? Oh? Yeah. We had great radio all along, all along, uh fifties into the early sixties. Uh.

The radio was was terrific. We were much luckier than our than our British brothers and sisters who uh literally had nothing until until until Pirates, you know until okay, but when but you were listening, you were an active music listener before the Beatles. Yeah, I I bought a couple of dozen singles. You know, I remember what some of those were? Oh yeah, yeah, first was Tears on My Pillow, Little Anthony, the imperials um Uh. Poison Ivy was given to me by my aunt because I had

poison ivy. I bought, you know, uh Sherry. Uh. Mid four Seasons were huge, Twist and Shop by the Isley Brothers, Palisades Park, A Little Prittle, Angelis, Duke of Earl, you know you casting down? Uh you know those those were those were just uh really really great great singles. Willie Still Love Me Tomorrow, the Rills? How about the Beach Boys in any West Coast stuff? You know, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really like the Beach Boys for the West Coast stuff. Now, No, I didn't. I didn't

get that whole thing. There's something, uh, you know, I don't know. I don't know what it was. The college, even though I thought of going to college, but the whole fraternity vibe of them with the letters on the sweater, and there was something that was just to turn off to make that at that stage, you know. Um, I mean that's why the Beatles was so shocking. It was it was, it was, it was shockingly contemporary, you know.

I mean, and even the Four Seasons, which is the other group that survived the Beatles, and then the only two that did, you know, is the Beach Toys in the fourth Theasters, and of course the Motown and Soul stuff. But but the Four Seasons you know again, you know, they looked like your Italian uncles. I mean, you know, you love them. You love the records, I mean various records, among the greatest records of ad. I mean, you know,

one one phenomenal thing after the other. Sherry Big Girls will Cry, walked like a man, big man in town, Ronnie rag Dolls, rag Dolls, I get it, you know, Marlena Candy Girl. Let mean, you know, phenomenal stuff, phenomenal stuff. But you know, you didn't really, you know, you didn't wanna. I didn't want to be them, you know whatever, for whatever reason, you know, And and it was it was the British invasion that just okay, you know, So when

did you personally first hear the Beatles. I was in bed under the coverage with my transistor radio, and I remember my brother would listen also, he was in the next bed. We're both in the same room and older, younger, younger. He's seven years younger. Uh because uh, you know, my mother remarried when I was seven, and that's how I got and that's how an Italian kid gets a Dutch name. And so I had a I had a brother and sister that came along at that point. But I remember,

like it was yesterday. They you know, you're digging whatever's on the radio, and that's all great. I want to hold your hand. Comes on and they hit the high note and me and my brother burst out laughing just spontaneously, you know, and I and I you know, and I've been analyzing that ever since, you know, which it comes down to. The Bells had just hit on something remarkable that obviously came from the fifties, came from all the the do Op and certainly Everly Brothers and and everybody

else and Roy Orbison and all all of them. But but but they had taken it to some new level and communicated just unbridled joy somehow there was some something joyous in in that in in their music that was uh new. It was just new and unexplainable really uh and man, it was just like, uh, just a you know, just a volcano. You know. The culture was just transformed overnight completely. Okay, So the record I Want to Hold Your Hand forget the stuff on VJ before because we

didn't know about it then. So I Want to Hold You And it's actually released at the end of December, but literally after the first of the year. It's gigantic. Beatles are not on until February. Did you buy the single? And then there was She Loves You Would All Get You. On the end there was Meet the Beatles. How active were you before they were on? Ed Sullivan? Yeah, no, no, uh very Uh. That was the first. That was the first album I ever bought, which we thought was the first.

We thought was their first album. Of course it turns out to be their second, right, Um, but but that was my album buying, you know. That was the beginning of album buying for me. Uh. And then and then yeah, whatever you could find at that point, they you know, VJ, the Swan something was on Swan you know uh and uh and actually their first album kind of snuck out there and on some maybe on DJ, also on j R introducing the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh. We couldn't

get enough. We couldn't we could not get enough. I mean, there's never been a sonic takeover like like that, like that, I mean, as everybody knows. I'm sure you know, by April they had the top five singles, uh, and another fifteen or twenty on the charts at the same time, you know, but the top five singles, uh yeah, nobody want to hear anything else. I mean, but you know, but soon there would be other British invaders that would

do quite well. They've five We're right on their heels, and and and and glad all over with would replace uh uh one of one of them on one of the Beatles songs, and then you know it's just one one after the other. Hermit's, Hermits, the animals, and then you know, stones, yard birds. Okay, so I certainly remember this era before the Beatles was a folk era. Every household had a nylon string guitar. People would play a few chords. The Beatles hit overnight, people are growing there

here and getting guitars. What was going on with you? No, no, no, no, you're not exaggerating. I mean literally, February eight, nobody had a band. You didn't see band. You know, the four or five guys singing and playing didn't exist. You know. Uh, you went to your high school dance. It was an instrumental band, alright. So February nine, they played this variety show that the whole family watched on Sunday nights. February tent everybody had a band in the garage, and I

am telling you everybody you know it. It changed the culture overnight and it would continue really throughout the entire sixties. When you went out at night and had to have fun. I mean you might go to driving Okay, to see a movie. Other than that, you went out to see a band, or in my case, you will actually be playing in a band. But bands took over the culture after that, Uh, in a really you know, fun positive way. That was all you did. I mean there was no

one through remind your younger younger listeners. Uh, there was no internet or cell phones or video games or you know, there wasn't a lot of distractions. We did have a good six seven, eight, fantastic rock and roll TV shows on in those days for about a year and a half, which I think looking back was quite remarkable. But mostly, you know, it was radio and going out and seeing bands and so um the the you know you. We were just so lucky to be that generation because that

meant there were lots of places to play. And I mean right through high school we were booked all the time. Uh and uh, how did you did you have play any instrument prior to the Beatles? How did you pick up the guitar? And how did you form a band? No, my first two bands I was I was the lead singer, so I didn't learn how to play guitar for about a year or two. But I started early, just before

the Beatles hit. My grandfather, from my Italian grand father from from you know, my mother's father, who was from Calabria, showed me the song of his village, a little melody that was just uh. I guess every every town had their little theme song. I guess. Uh, So he he was showing me that. I and I wasn't you know, crazy about playing guitar as much as I wanted to spend time with my grandfather. Tell you truth, you know

what I mean. It was that kind of thing. Um, but I got like a I don't know, six month head start before everybody else but guitars, and then UM sixty four, you know, right in the sixty five. I didn't really UM start for my my my, my main band, the Source, uh started in sixties six, at which point I'm playing lead guitar. So it took me. Uh, it took me a couple of years, I guess to get there. Okay, a lot of people from that era, and you've certainly met all of them. I've certainly met some of them.

They're not really that talkative. Their personality is so much, but they get on stage, they light up, the music speaks through them, and their whole life opens up. The girls all on them. So you're now the lead singer of a band, then the lead guitarist of band. How does your life change? You know? What was really uh funny, ironic? I don't know. You know, we're watching Hard Day's Night, you know, which is just the uh you know, primer, primer. How do you say that for how to be in

a rock and roll you know? You you hope UM and the girls did not like us who were in a band. It was first of all, the whole rock star concept at that point was English. You know you if you weren't English, you were kind of irrelevant. And and in our in our area, in our school, the girls still like the football players, you know. And uh, you were just kind of freaky. To be honest, it wasn't It wasn't like you were cool to be in

a band in the sixties. It was more freaking a freakiness about you, uh, because it was it wasn't a business phill seventies, first of all. And before that, like I said, it was this kind of a British thing. They just kind of owned it. So you were just, I don't know, some kind of want to be I guess, or something but not considered cool or something that girls

desired certainly, you know. Uh, you know, so your life doesn't really change other than my life taking on a bit of a purpose, which which was a big, you know, a big thing for a kid. Man. You know, you're looking, You're looking, You're wondering, you know, where are you going in this world? Man? And I'm telling you right now, I was having a lot of problems trying to sit in trying to think of where I fit in before the Beatles hit, and then I always tie it together.

And then four months later the Wronging Stones came. So it's always have been a fifty fifty thing for me. Um, you know, because the Beatles were just you know, yes, they revealed the new world, but they were just way too good to think that you could do it, you know, and they this were we caught them halfway through the career. You know, they're singing together since fifty seven. They were going to sixty nine. You know, here we are there,

there's phenomenal. Okay, the harmony is ridiculously perfect. The hair is perfect, the clothes, every everything's perfect. And four months later it comes to the Wrong Stones. A little more casual, a lot more casual. Uh the hair is not perfect except for Brian Jones. Uh low harmony whatsoever. You know, they made it look easier than it was. They really were at the first punk band in every sense of the word. But they made they made it may they

made it look easier than it was. And uh so you know, I always say that the Beatles revealed this new world and they're only Stones invited us. And okay, now the music change versus a British invasion then, and these are not strict demarcations, but I'll throw them out there anyway. You have the folk rock of the Birds, then you have this sixties seven coming in with Jefferson Airplane, etcetera. Did you like all kinds of music? Because you remember this was on Saturday night on w ABC, they'd have

wars between the Beatles and the Stones. You know, were you a fan of everything or was there certain stuff? No, I like this and I don't like that. Well, you had some of that going on. But but we were surprisingly a model culture at that point. I mean, you know, not strictly but but but very much so in a country that you know, it was the only country ever

created that was not a model culture. Uh. You know, we were a culture of ideas, many of which were still trying to implement um but we but musically we were very much a model culture. And and like you say, the trends went year by year in those days and pretty much followed by everybody, you know, which was a great education because you know, you pick up a little bit of this, pick up a little bit of that.

Some people stayed in that in that certain mode. I mean sixty four British of Rage, sixty five folk rock, sixty six, Blues rock sixty seven, Psychedelics, sixty eight country Rocks, and then sixty nine the Southern the Southern white gospel blues thing with Glania Bonni and all the rest. Uh. And you kind of went from trend to trend, and everybody did um right up until seventies, at which point it did fragment and uh and become hybrids after that. Um. But but you kind of kind of you tended to

like everything. I mean, there any moments where yeah, you know, it might have a Beatles versus Stones discussion or um, you know, Jeff Beck group versus led Zeppelin discussion you know, later on. Uh, but you tended to kind of like everything. I mean, those those those who's better than who we were kind of phony arguments to begin with. Okay, you bring up a couple of things. Who's the best guitarist to ever according to you? Well, there's two, Uh, there's

sort of two errors of guitar. Uh. There's the sixties era, which there's no doubt about. I don't think anybody would disagree that Jimi Hendrix was the greatest guitar player that ever lived. Um, the sixties guy that ended up still blowing minds is Jeff Beck. Now you go see Jeff Beck right now, and he will blow your mind right now, you know, And and and and never Clapton will say the same thing, and Jimmy Page will say the same thing.

Last time I saw Jeff back, Jimmy Page was standing next to me and just as awestruck as I was, you know. But they all pay homage to Jimi Hendrix. He just was from another planet, you know. And then then there's a whole second era of modern guitar styles coming from the Eddie van Halen, you know, hammering. It's a whole different, whole different style which I never got into.

But there's a whole there's dozens of modern show called the modern arrow guitar players that are you know, Steve I and those guys that are remarkable technically, just just beyond belief technically. But that's a whole different style that I never, I never got into. So it was for me, it was just the four amount rushmore pretty much was was was was clapped in uh back Page and Hendrix and and and in a very special place in my heart for Mike Bloomfield, who was important to me, you know,

Paul Butterfield's guitar player and later form the Electric Flag. Um, but he Uh, but you know those are guys, you know, for for me. Okay, favorite Beatles album, Favorite Stones album. You know that changes every day, Um, no, no doubt about it. The most important Beatles album obviously was Sergeant Pepper's only last club band, which, Uh, I don't care how much revisionism there goes on. Yes, Revolver it was more innovative. Revolver has better songs song by song, Yes,

we all agree with that. But Sergeant Pepper was the most important cultural moment that I can remember. Uh, every every story walked down the street that wherever it was June one, sixty seven, every single store was playing it, you know, every restaurant, every clothing story. You know, this is an amazing, amazing moment when all of Western culture was celebrating the same, the same piece of work. Um. Favorite, you know, my favorite Beatles album probably it's probably Helped Um. Um,

that's my favorite. Seven seven Beatles songs in a row. Uh. But Harriday's Night was terrific. Beatles for Sale, terrific, you know they I like the I like the early stuff. You know, I liked it from pretty much those you know, from Hortidays night beals for sale. Help. I love that period the most Stones, Uh for me, twelve by five two of my favorite Stones albums don't exist in England,

which is twelve by five and uh December children. Um that's why you know, we we we used the American Stones albums as the real thing, and of course the British Beatles albums as as the real configurations. You know. Um, but you know the record company actually did the did the right thing with Stones, uh, twelve by five for me, you know, and then then you have the second Stones, the second great Stones evera of course is the four remarkable you know, Beggar's Banquet, Let it Bleed, sticky Fingers

and Exile. You know, you know, the two errors are are both amazing to me. But I but I actually I enjoyed the early stuff. I love I love the covers. I love the covers, you know, Beatles and Stones, you know,

I think that's a real true measurement of greatness. And and usually it's the it's the guys who went up go on to write the best songs, just do the best cover version, and uh, I have a great respect for cover versions, and I think it's an extremely important part of rock education that many many people are skipping these days. I think two best covers who by those two bands? No, No, two best covers period. Oh jeez, that's the whole get the whole radio show on that.

Um well there's you know. I I in the book, I talked about the various rules for how to make a cover song on your own and the one the one that the one to check all the boxes? Uh as the middle of Fudge you keep me hanging on, but certainly close to that is you know, Jimmy Hendricks so along to watch Tower, you know, one of the greatest. And Joe Cocker is a little health with my friends. Um, those three I think probably stand out as three and

three the greatest. Let's go look. Decade later, Soft Cell read does Tainted Love and matches it with where Did Our Love Go? And I did not know the original Tainted Love? Did you? And what do you think of those two songs put together by Soft Cell? No? I I didn't know it either. Um um, I wasn't really into them that whole uh you know whatever that was called the New wave. I wasn't a big new waiver,

so I didn't like the whole synthesizer MTV thing. You know. Um, they make an exception or two to the rule, but they weren't it. Okay. So one thing you say in the book, which blows my mind because I use it all the time, is we lived through the Renaissance, okay. And I tell people today when people say, oh, music today is just as good as it ever was, they said, no, we lived through the Renaissance. They had a Renaissance and

painting and sculpture in England. They've been painting and sculptor since. But there was only one Renaissance. Okay. But in your book I get the impression. Well, let me just ask you straight. The Renaissance starts with the Beatles. When does it end? It's a good question, um, and arguably, uh, you could you could clock it. I mean, the full Naissance and Renaissance was you know, about twenty years, you know,

fifty one to about seventy one. But you can go into the mid seventies if you you know, and I wouldn't argue too much about that, especially if you're including other arts. You know, if you're including movies, um and other you know other other other, you know, other important books, film paintings. You know, you may want to go into the seventies. The high the high point would be this sixty four to seventy one, seventy two from you know the Beatles to um either Exile on Main Street or

or or the who uh what's it called? Who's Next? With the Who's Next is in seventy one, Quadraphenia in seventy three. Yeah, I see, you want to you want to include that, so you know, somewhere in there, somewhere in there, you know, um different than the rock era, which I clocked from like a rolling stone, the Kirt Coby's death almost exactly thirty years. But the renaissance for for for me was was that. Yeah, sixties into the into the seventies. Okay. Conventional wisdom is rock is dead.

What do you think about that? Well, I think that's true in the industry sense of the word. However, we're still the biggest thing live and I think that that will continue to be true. It's a very important part of of the of the rock art form is live performance. It's uh, unlike any other art form in that sense. I think and we still remain I think, the biggest thing live and always will at least while while our generation is still going. Uh, we're not being replaced, unfortunately.

But I'm trying to make up for that with my radio format and my music education program and and my record company and everything else I've been doing. For the last twenty five years, I've been trying to trying to preserve this endangered species called rock. Um. But it's it's it's it's not part of the industry anymore. I mean, they don't, you know, and I really piste off that they don't even bother to broadcasted on the Grammys anymore. It's it's it's really really uh enraging. You know, when

we ran the world. You know, when rock ran the world, we included everybody, you know, we didn't pick them off the telecast and say, by the way, the Rock Awards went to so and so. You know, I mean, you know, it's it's this that's really wrong. But but anyway, that's just an example of how how dead it is. They don't even bother showing them under Grammys anymore. Um. And you know, the last time with rock and roll song gonna in top forty I don't even remember. You know,

there's no more hit singles that are that are rocking. Okay, let's talk about rock, because there is rock and there's the active rock format. I have a theory about this. I remember when led Zeppelin was considered heavy metal and

Black Sabbath was too far out. Now after Black I forget the number of years, but in terms of sound, from Black Sabbath you go to Metallica, and then from metalli you can go even further off, such that if you want to listen to what they call active rock, you have to have an education encyclopedia to get that far, because it's not really the year appealing from the beginning, whereas we grew up in in her Of course, the Beatles are definitive. They all had good voices, They wrote

songs with melodies, they had choruses, their bridges. Is this just a lost art like the Mayans. Couldn't we just put that together and have hit songs again? I think, truthfully, I think all that went to Nashville, you know it kind of it still exists there, right, I mean, you know, I gotta I got a second format on serious satellite called well Country, and that resembles the old rock world more than the modern rock world resembles the old rock world. I think, you know, I think all that went to

went the country music. Uh, you know, so I'm glad it exists somewhere. But other than that, yeah, it's a it's a very different Uh, it's a very different pop war now. And uh and uh, I'm not sure there is a rock world really, you know. Yeah, there's a heavy a heart, the hard stuff. Yeah, the hard stuff still exists, but they they've gotten that's become almost an intellectual part of the art form, you know, in a funny way. Uh. My friend, uh, my friend Max Weinberg's

son Jay wasn't one of those bands. And and uh and then early and one of his early heavy metal bands. I went to see them and and and it was extraordinarily complex. I mean it was it was like Bebop times on steroids. I mean, very complex musically, a very high level of of of technical proficiency. They go all over the place, and they all stopped together. And I was like, how did they possibly stopped together at that moment? I can't, I couldn't. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't

analyze it. It was so complicated, you know, so it's become almost uh an intellectual uh you know, in a funny way, an intellectual pursuit. You know, it appeals to an intellect as much as the venting of frustration, which is how we mostly associate with with with hard rock. There's something there's a whole another level of technical uh you know, expertise going on with that, with that world. But I don't, you know, I don't of course I don't relate to it directly. But you know, those rooms

for everybody, and you know, God blessed. But but uh, you know, but as far as the stuff that we grew up with, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta listen to my radio station if you want to hear that. Okay, was it in your book where you pooh pooed Americana? Um? No um they started. I think that that format started um trying to copy an idea I had. I didn't really, I didn't put it down. It's it's it's fine. But I was discussing what became out Wall Country with somebody in Nashville who had a

discussion with the guy who started Americana. It was very either extraordinarily coincidental or I think it came from that discussion. And he didn't do exactly my format. He didn't do this, He didn't do the format exactly as I described it. But it was closed, and so I didn't. I don't think I put it down, you know. Okay, you know I read so much as I said. It wasn't abviously sure, Okay. One of the times I saw Tom Petty before he died, he played a week at the fond Uh and he

played I won a couple of nights. They played different songs and he played an old country song he called country music today rock of the seventies. Okay. Now, on one hand, we have those people. Another hand, the most respected artist in Nashville is Chris Stapleton, who is great on Eddie front. So do you pay attention to that scene? Do you have thoughts about that scene? Yeah? They You know, I don't. I don't pay as much attention as I should because it is it is one of my formats.

But we we championed the new artists, just like we do on the rock side. And so I think there was a very very healthy scene there and and uh and I agree, and I like I we talked about this in a minute ago. I think I think most of what you were describing as as melodic, interesting chord changes and melodies and and and artists expressing themselves now lives in country music and initial you know, the you know Staple or the Jason Is Bells and whoever else you know, the uh they you know, and and I

think that's that's a healthy thing, you know. We you know, the outlaw country format is all three generations of Hank Williams, you know, because uh, you know, once once, uh, a friend of mine told me that they weren't playing Johnny Cash in country radio anymore. I'm like, well, then it's time for a new format. I'm sorry. You know. That's one of the reasons why I started it, to make

sure that were you aware of country music in that period? Yeah, yeah, um, you know, not again not living it, but aware of it, you know. And uh, and I just I liked a lot of that generation, you know. I like Merl Haggard, you know, in spite of his you know, yeah, and me being a hippie, you know exactly. I love Johnny Cash and and uh, you know, and and a back way back to Hank Williams and and uh and uh you know the Outlaws, you know, Christis Stofferson and Willan

and Willie Jennings. You know. Uh I like that generation a lot. They just uh there was just something cool about them. Okay, So Crossby Stools and Nash comes out in sixty nine, we have the Eagles. In seventy two, we have Sweetheart of the Rodeo and sixty eight. Was that a sound that appealed to you not? Oh yeah, definitely. We Well, like I said, we were, we were. We were following the trends in those days. And I think, and I say we, I think that's true about everybody.

We were all following those trends. And uh, country rock, Um it was big man, I was. I was. You know, I'm still huge fan of Young Bloods, Buffalo Springfield, Uh Birds, Find Burrito Brothers. Uh, we'll be great. You know these are country. This is country music for you know, country rock, and uh yeah, I'm a big, big fan of it. Yes, Okay, So let's talk about turning this decade sixties and seventies.

You're out of high school, You're playing what do I know, like everybody else, I had a guitar, I had played I'm to my friend Mark's house. We're playing our guitars because now we're going to change keys, and I said, I'm out. You know, did you ever what has it always been hard work for you? Or did you ever fall in this side and say, wait a second, this is my groove. I can do this. I live here.

I'm as good as anybody, I think. You know, you're always you're always kind of improving, you know, I don't know if I ever. I mean, once you start writing your own shows, you know, your your own records, in your own shows, obviously it's got to be. It's a it's a comfort zone because you've created it, you know. Um. But other than other than that, you're always they're always I don't know, learning looking to improve. Right, does anybody intimidate you a musician just in terms of how good

they are? Um? Oh, man, there's a there's a whole you know, kar Yeah, yeah, uh, you know. I mean, it's glorious. It's just a glorious thing to witness a great greatness in any form. You know, I'm I'm attractive to greatness in anything. I agree with you. It's like when you have a great sport, guy, great guy on any of the dominance and to see them walk that line Louis Hamilton and car racing the guy on Jeopardy.

So one of the big points in the book. And you really describe it well, the whole period that Bruce gets a record deal and said, you know, I guess it with John Hammond and they think it's a folk record. I remember for a long time the second album was my favorite. Second Bruce Wilde The Innocent, Okay, especially this. I saw him in the bottom line the year before and seventy three, I mean seventy four, the year before, uh, the born to run shows. But you say a couple

of things. You say he was sold sold to John Hammond as a folk act, and certainly on that record the band is mixed way down. But I realized the book is about you. But hey, were you very conscious of Bruce trying to get a deal record deal of the Stravails And tell me exactly how you felt when you were left out in the initial recording situation. Um, I wasn't. Uh, I wasn't following it day day to day. But but we were very very conscious of trying to

get a record deal. That's where you that's you know, that was the whole idea to get into the business. Uh. Um. And and we were, you know, we had a different band every three months, uh, you know, in that late sixties. And at some point we realized, no matter what we did, nobody's coming down from New York to discover us. And add great Park, I mean, even though it's only an hour and hour and a half away, might as well being I've been on the moon. So Bruce, being you know, smart,

I saw the singer songwriter trend coming. It was happening at that moment, which was the beginning of the fragmentation at that point, you know, like I said, it was it went from singer songwriter on the left to heavy metal on the right, everything in between, um, singer songwriters. Interestingly enough, when I analyzed it, you know, I realized the difference between them and folk singers, you know, um,

which is pretty much semantics. But but but but the interesting thing additionally was all the singer songwriters had hit you know, which was not the case with all the folks that you know. Uh. And I that struck me when I realized that. But anyway, Bruce kind of gets in the trojan horse of singer songwriters, and then immediately, you know, pisses everybody off by saying, I don't want to make an acoustic record, you know, I want to I want to do a band record. And John Hammond

was not happy about that. His managers were not happy about that, nobody and so, um, we didn't have an existing band exactly at that moment. So he just kind of started drawing in guys from different bands and we played with and of course I was one of them, and I turned out to be just you know, one guitar player too many. I mean, they weren't happy about having a band at all, and they certainly didn't see any need for a second guitar. So I was rejected. And and uh, I guess it hit me pretty hard.

I was, you know, pretty disappointed about it. Uh. And I kind of at that point I felt we had missed the boat anyway, I really did. I felt like the great stuff has all been done, you know, it's it's it's it's kind of over. And I wasn't that far wrong, by the way, but uh, you know, it just kind of felt like, you know, it's redundant from now on. And so I wasn't I wasn't you know too too depressed about it? But it was it was. It was depressing and disappointing, and I quit. I quit

the business at that point, and we're construction for two years. Okay, to what degree are those two things connected? Was the fact that you weren't included in the band? Was that really what drove you to go to construction? Yeah? Because I was in debt from a previous couple of bands. We were, and we thought we were gonna be big, and I bought a big amp uh and a van to carry it around in, you know, because I thought we were gonna that was our big break, you know,

a couple of bands earlier. So I was in debt and had to pay, you know how to get a straight job the first time in my life. How much did you hate it? Well? I I hated it, um, but I but I started my mind immediately began to adjust to uh, accepting this as you know, this is it, man, this is this is your life now, so adjust to it. And that was pretty good at doing that, I guess, um.

But after two seasons going from you know, uh flagman on on on through two seven at six in the morning, and you know, five degree weather, go all the way to the jackhammer in a hot ninety degree summer. Um. I was playing football on the weekends and and uh, flag football, and I broke my finger, still bent and uh and to exercise my finger, I couldn't work anymore. I couldn't pick up a jackhammer. So I went to

exercise my finger by joining the band playing piano. Uh. And that's how I got back into music, just by just by that weird circumstance, which is a story of my life. I mean weird circumstances definitely the story of my life, as you see in the book. And I got back anyway, So I you know, I I appreciated show business a lot more after working instruction than I

did before. Let's put it that way, Okay. In the book, you ultimately go to Vegas, you go to Miami, you're working with Oldiezacs, and there's a lot of sex talk at this way, you know, and then you talk about going down south below the Mason Dixon line and having girls. Whatever. Were these things that the older musicians taught you being on the road or how did this develop? Well, it was just I wanted to give a little bit of flavor of that of that era, you know, and the

seventies was just uh wide open. I mean, uh, you know this is before aids and uh and and and post women's liberation. I mean this was real women's liberation, like they would come and ask you for sex liberation, and uh, I want to give people a little bit of a flavor of that. I don't think. I don't think I overdid anything. I overdid it whatsoever. You are realistic and nobody is ever realistic. I want to hear.

We have the heavy metal bands where you know it's happening seven, you know, then we have Linda Ronstad's book that's so sanitized it's like it's unreadable. Okay, So I was surprised that you were honest about it, and you know that was why it's good. I mean, there are certain people who are uh you know, Elvis iconic, looking in their stars whatever, and one knows it goes with the territory there. I mean, I know, listen, I know

these people don't know. You go on the road with these people, there's always somebody much more experienced than you are who teaches you the ways of the road and what goes on and kind of coaches you along and then you ultimately pass these lessons down to the level. But if you're not a member that group, you have no idea. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, so you got some of that on on the oldies circuit. Uh, these are the needs of the guys who admited it, Okay,

exactly mean it doesn't invent rock and roll. Uh. And that was and that was just fun, man, I gotta tell you the truth. You know, I was the only one having fun there because they all hated being called oldies. They put out the past there in the primary lives. Okay, these guys are you know, late thirties, early forties. If they had four hits when the Beatles hit, they did those four hits the rest of their life, you know.

And it was just tragic. One of the just odd odd phenomena of our of the history of rock and roll. That first generation who invented it got put out the pasture and and and did not have a chance to evolve, uh with an audience the way every other generation did, starting with the second generation of British invasion. You know, who are the biggest acts and sixty four the Beatles and Stones who the biggest acts now the Beatles and Stones, you know, as there should be, because as they evolved,

the audience evolved with them. Uh some reason that first generation just kind of got left out. And uh, and that's why one of the reasons why the minute I got in the studio, I started bringing them back, you know, out of just out of gratitude and and and wanted to show people that they're still great. Got Ronny Specter and Lee Dorsey out of retirement, Second Duke's album, We United the Coasters, Drifters and five Staturns, you know, um uh me and Bruce, Gary West Bonds, put Benny King

and Chuck Jackson on that record. And uh, and of course I worked with Ronny Specter and just did Darlene Love album you know, some years a few years ago. Um. You know, at first of all, it's great to work with those people. They're different, There are different species of people. These were talented people, the real talent, you know, not tuning, the vocal talent, not editing or the vocal together talent. They had it right, got it right the first time

every time. You know, They're a real thing. And so they were a joy to produce. But anyway, I was the only one. I'm really having a good time on that on the on that meeting, meeting all of those guys, and uh, it's a shame the way that worked out. Okay, so you all do we come back to Asbury Park. You formed the Jukes. First question, tell me how you played Monopoly during the set? That was? That was a

different band. That's Dr Zoom in the Sonic Moom at a certain point, like I said, we had a different band every three months before the Jukes. This is quite a bit before the Jukes. Um, this is more and more like the early seventies. Uh. We became the go to opening act at our local Hullabalu club, uh Hullablue coming from the PV show. Um. And we didn't really have a band at that time, and we you know, we just kind of floundering around. So we decided to put everybody in town in the band so to get

a paycheck of some kind. And that include people who didn't play instruments, so we hadn't play monopoly. We haven't play monopoly. Instead and they got there whatever ten bucks or whatever whatever whoever it was. Uh, Okay, how come when the pop gives you a deal for the Jukes, And how come you just don't stay with the Jukes? You tell the story of the book, how you tell Johnny he's got to be the front man. Why don't you say this is my thing, let me ride this

all the way. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a good question. It's a good question. Um. I don't know. I felt it was limited in some ways. You know. Johnny was great in his own way and had surprised everybody by being as great as he was. Uh, you know, he just really really rose to the occasion, you know. But he wasn't Rod Stewart, you know, let's face it, anyway, he wasn't you know, Stevie Tyler or you know, Roger Daltrey. Uh,

you know, he didn't. He wasn't he was. He was like a blues you know, blues guy and great in that particular sub genre. Um. But but that there's built in limitations to that. And I and I wasn't ready to be limited. I wanted to go all the way,

you know. And so the horse side bet on was was Bruce Springsteen because I felt he was the one guy, the local, one local guy that could go all the way, and I just, um, I felt that about you know, we were friends a long time and uh, and that was probably the first one to think that about him, because he was extremely shy and uh, and nobody predicted him to be a success. But I saw something special

in him very early that nobody else particularly saw. Um. But by that point of course, it had come kind of a roller coaster ey because he he was the first guy signed in our town, but his first two records were complete failures. He was about to be the first guy dropped in our town. Uh, you know, so, um, it wasn't it wasn't that final a decision. It wasn't like I'm leaving the Jukes and joining the East paying

for the rest of my life. He only had seven gigs books, so I thought, you know, the seven gigs and probably come back to the Jukes and then let's see what we can do. You know. UH may have recorded the first album by then, but that's it's about it. So I would really start to uh become a much better songwriter, and on their second and third albums, Uh, so so they're they're future artistically wasn't really clear at

that point. I just was using them to learn the craft of a record production because I really felt like I was a record producer and I wanted to learn how to do it. You know. Okay, another thing you talk about throughout the book is writing songs. How do you write a song? Well? I think what I tell people now, you know, and I do these masterclasses on songwriting, and you know, I try to say, the first of all, there's no rules. Okay, so let's keep that in mind.

But I said, you know, the thing you want to try and overcome is is being stuck. You want you want to try and be want to have some momentum, and you want to try and be moving forward whether whatever you're doing, all right, you don't want to be sitting there staring at a blank piece of paper if you can help it, you know, waiting for your muse, you know, to to visit. Uh. You know, now this may be just me and my A D D. Which, as I say, I've had long before it was fashionable.

So you know, I don't have any patience. So so so um I tell people, you know, first of all, right, with purpose. You should also live with purpose, by the way, but but certainly you should write with purpose. What do you want the song to do. You know, Uh, you want to make people cry and make them last and make them dance. Uh, you gonna have a hit record. You want to confess your sins, you know, decide what what do you want to the stone to do? Uh? You know, um, and then you know you can work

out how how literally you want it to be. Uh, but right right down some reference lyrics saying exactly what you want to say. Don't worry about being poetic, don't worry about being cleverly metaphorical at first. Just write it straight out, and then you can go back and you can add all those things you want to disguise it. You want to, you know, make it more poetic, whatever you want to do, make it more artistically interesting. You

can do that later. But the idea is to get some momentum going come up with a purpose right out. What that purpose is is clearly as as as you can you know. UM. And the other thing I use also and I teach it and I and I use it myself and I used it very much on my latest album, Summer Sorcery. Uh is you're stuck. You're writing a song for yourself right one for somebody else. Um, it's A. It's a it's the best way to to break that break up that you know, that log jam,

you know, uh, because it's always more difficult to see yourself. Um, you know, you want to write a write a beach boy song, you know, write a song you can you can see the beach boys doing it. Write a wrong Stone song, or you know, whenever your favorite artist is write and write a door song. You know. You know now when you do that, um, you're not really gonna be impersonating them most likely. Uh so it's gonna come

out you. It's gonna end up being you. But it's just so it's just a way of getting some momentum going, because that's the hardest thing when it comes to writing. And once in a while you get a great melloy you'll come into your head, or a phrase. You'll catch a phrase in a book or somebody's saying something. You know, and I and I and I keep notes. I mean, the reason why Summer Sorcery was was such a miracle

was my radar had been down for thirty years. So before that, in the eighties, when you're in that cycle, you know, record tour, record to our record to a record tour Um, you're always your radar is always up. You're always making little notes, you know, a little melodies things. You know, you record the little bits of melody that come to you, or a chord change. You know, you record it. Words you know you'll jot down, you know somewhere. Uh, phrases,

you always looking for. Titles are always important. The most important things to title, you know. The second most important thing is a chorus. Very most important thing is the opening line. You know. So you're always looking for those. The rest right itself. Um, and you're you know, uh, and you're always compiling all these notes, and then when you go to make a record, you have all this stuff you can then you can, you know, put it all together. I got to make summar sorcery. I have

none of that. There's no notes, you know, there's no not one bit of melody recorded anywhere, or not one single phrase. You know. That's why it was such a remarkable miracle that records happened. But but I did, But I did. Right there, I sat down said, okay, so I'm gonna make a new record. Um, first of all, I wanted to be a new idea. I don't I don't want it to be order biographical, because all my

records are autobiographical. And I don't want it to be political alright, because there's no reason to be political during the Trump years. It's completely redundant. So so I said, I'm just gonna write ten or twilve little fictional movies, be a different guy in each, and have some fun and I and I said, you know, so, who who do I want to represented on this record? And I

wrote down a list. I wanted to fly in the family stone because that's how I'm picturing my new disciples, the soul in that, in that sort of uh you know frame. I want some Sam Cooke, I want some Tito Quente, you know, I want from James Brown, and uh, you know, I'm may a list and there and and then and then I wrote the songs, and uh and none. None of those songs sound like those people exactly. They sound like me. And that's how it works, man. You know,

how about collaboration, believe it or not believing it? Well, I you know, I love the idea of it, um, but I never figured out how to do it. I could. All my collaborations, uh, you know, usually somebody's riff, you know, Bruce Bruce. Bruce came up with a riff on a love on the wrong side of town, you know John John John Johnnah Johannah and I wrote the rest. You know what I mean, like, give me, give me a piece of a song and then I'll finish it. You know.

But two guys in the same room writing, I don't I don't know how to do that, and I and I envy it, you know, I'd like to do that. I'd like to be in that, you know, winning in McCartney mode when they started, you know, Mick and Keith when they started UM or any of the any of the great songwriting teams, you know, Lieber and Stoller, you know Barry Greenwich, you know a lot of great ones. Okay, let's do so. Ultimately, Gary Gersh tracks you down. You

make these records for E M I America. Commercially, they are not successful. You talk in the book about the label not taking advantage of television appearance in Europe, based in Germany, etcetera. What was your internal experience, Hey, did you feel an obligation to try to have hits for them or you thought you were doing the right thing and the label wasn't coming through for you. What was

your experience there? Yeah, I really, uh, I like those records and I went back and really really re examined them writing this book. Um, I really believe it was a case of having no manager to to be that advocate. And my records were not actually the most commercial and the most uh the songs that really fit in necessarily, so it would have been difficult no matter who it was. Um, they were just the way I heard them. You know, my records are completely uncompromising. Um. And I don't know

where that comes from. I don't know why. I mean, I grew up with pop music, you know, and I love pop music and I love sixties pop music. Um, but I just I was off on some artistic trip that I I just couldn't resist because it felt like I was justifying my existence. You know. It wasn't enough to have pop hits in my mind, even if I could have done that. Um, they needed to be hits with substance. I just I had that need to to to communicate substance. I don't know why, but I did,

and and and and the songs. You know, we're not uncommercial. You know, when you'll go back and look at you know, out of the darkness or or bitter fruit or or or you know, uh whatever, they were not they were not you know, they're not jazz. You know they're they're not They're not you know, something difficult to comprehend. Um. And so you know, I think it would have needed some an advocate to to to really to really help

promote promote the stuff at the time. I think with the manager, I think I would have stayed in Europe at that moment and broken through. We played the sixteen countries and and blew to boot, blew the house down, and and and you know, like I said, a group that was not nearly as good state and broke to in Europe. That might have been my breakthrough moment. Who knows, I don't know, Um, I don't know. I I think

lack of management was a big factor. I think my own lack of lack of of making it a priority was probably a factor. I I did not see having having a hit single at that point being a priority to me, and I should have. I should have. Man, I made sure bru spraising and a hit record. I'll tell you that because we needed it. We needed on that that fifth album that you know that was the last chance. Man. We needed it, and just to stop at that point for a second, it was fascinating to

get your viewpoint on that. I know there's a big economic component on the other side of the stage, but from the audience, if you had been there before, everybody came aboard on board to run. Certain people came aboard on board run Darkness was a return. It was a gift to the people who had always been there. And in addition, amongst fans in Los Angeles, you played the Rock, they played the Roxy. There were boo legs, I own

the bootleg, et cetera. So the fact that you felt on the inside that you needed Hungry Heart and you needed to put it over the top. My feeling the vibe in l A was Bruce and the Eastree being were part of the firmament, well being a part of the firmament, part of the FIRMAMENTI of the Roxy. That wasn't underplay. I mean that was a radio show or even the palladium. What was the intermediate? Uh, I'm pretty

sure on the Darkness tour Bruce played the Forum. Now granted that's l A. Well maybe and maybe, but it wasn't it wasn't full. If we did, it wasn't full. Okay. So and yes, and that was l a you know, you go to Kansas, you know. Uh, we were struggling, believing me, believe me, we were struggling. We were in some ways less popular. I mean, to run made a lot of noise that that particular song. People think it

was a hit. It wasn't really a hit, but but certainly yeah, and it got more airplay than anything on Darkness Darkness absolutely, you know. So we were kind of, you know, in some ways on a on a on a down slide, kind of um saved by Frank Barcelona, who kept us going regardless, and it just felt like we need we need to get over his hump here, you know. So I think that single came wrong with throw at the right time. Okay, let's jump forward for you.

When did you realize the Sopranos was the Sopranos um About three weeks after it was on Um. Uh, suddenly everybody is stopping me on the street. Uh, and then they don't want to discuss rock and roll anymore. And I had been a you know, a so called rock star at that point twenty five years. Just to show the power of TV three weeks. Forget those twenty five years and they're they're gone. I'm telling you know, and and I and I did not. I was not not

easily recognized. You know, I looked pretty different in the show. You know, I think you fish you may see it that way? People knew you were in the show. Yeah, you think, Oh, I know, there was you know, that was one of the big stories. Not everybody walking down the street in New York City is gonna know you're in these three be gonna know who you are anyway, But if you were a music fan and you were watching that show, you knew it was you. Alright, alright,

But to my mind, I looked pretty damn different. But but anyway, it didn't matter because everybody is stopping me. And I said, man, this show, We're onto something because it was it. This wasn't that obvious League commercial. Okay, I mean the pilot, uh was was downright weird? You know. Extent is the pilot the first episode, Yes, yes, I mean a mob boss has ducks flying to with pool,

they fly away, he has a nervous breakdown. That the makings of a hit show, you know, And then and and David Chase, no compromise, this is gonna be his last show. He didn't care, all right, he'd been he'd been a good TV soldier his whole life since Rockford's Files, you know, like what early seventies or something. Um, and and and he's ready to go onto movies and he's just gonna break every rule in the book. He just

doesn't care anymore. So so so um, he has no The Lightning is like practically should have a very tay you know, it's practically a documentary. And the camera doesn't move at all, no seductive camera moves. Uh. Uh. I had to talk him in adding like four songs to the pilot because there was there was no music. It was just like it was the most uncompromising and too

many characters, you know, no stars. A couple of people might have known me, and a couple of people knew well then new Lorraine from good Fellas, But here she is doing the opposite roles from good Fellas, you know. Uh. And that's it. So, I mean, every rule was it

was being broken. Uh. And I thought, you know, I thought it was gonna take at least one season for people to kind of get used to the idea of it, because it was pretty bizarre, you know, no two or three weeks boom, I mean it was, it was on and uh it just kept building from there. How did the Alabama three songs get chosen? They David chose all all the music. Uh, I don't watch so much. Sure who who turned him onto that? I never asked him? Uh, but he but he you know, he had a guy

that did some music supervision for him. But but mostly he liked That's the thing he liked doing most. He liked doing the music more than anything. Okay, the landscape is littered with hit shows to get worse every season. Okay, so you're doing the show now, there was a delight he first you wanted to yearly schedule and then they you know, for script real, I'm on the outside script resil. To what degree was their pressure and to what degree

did you feel the attention? Now as the show started to play out, well, okay, the pressure was on David Chase and uh after the first season, Uh, he was a little bit stuck because in his mind it was just the third teen part movie and and and the movie in his head was you know, mother was to kill kill her own son. And uh, you know, and so he was kind of he wasn't really sure what to do after the first season. Uh, but we did. We did a second season, right according according to the schedule,

I think, you know. And then we were at the Rath party for the second season and at that point, you know, we're doing really really well and uh and and and everybody's kind of celebrating, and David Jason's looked completely wasted, you know, just really drained. And I said, damn, you know, you know, come on, you gotta have some

fun here, man. And he's like, I got, I got like whatever it is, three or four more months of post production and then it's like maybe a month off and then I gotta started writing a third season, he says. And I'm just I'm exhausted. And I said, you know,

I'm thinking myself, h is HBO. You know, I mean, before we got there, there's a football show and seven right, you know, you know, And I said, Dave, you know who says you gotta follow that schedule, and you know, and he had been such a good soldier his whole life, you know, he said, well, that's the way we've always done it. I'm like, yeah, So what it's HBO, you know, new, a new idea. We are so hot right now. What

are you gonna do? Fire you? If you say I want three months off, I want six months or whatever. When we come back six months later, will the show have been forgotten and and and go down to drain? I don't think so, you know, Well they fire you. I don't think so, you know, I said, fuck then, you know, it's more important to us and to them that you are in good shape mentally. You know that you are not exhausted. You you need you need to read, you know, refuel here man, take take whatever time you

fucking need, you know. And uh and he did and he did, and that changed the entire It changed cable TV forever because everybody started doing it later, you know, taking you know, extra time here, you know, coming back fourteen months later than sixteen months later. But you know, but it was important at that time that I thought, you know, this guy is gonna just kill himself here and what good is he gonna be for anybody? And burned out like that. What are a couple of your

favorite episodes? Well, you know, I never watched the whole thing from the beginning, but but I watched some of the first season. Uh, they were doing a marathon and I and I had seen the you know, the new one, the new Many Saints, you know, so I kind of put me in that soprano's moods I watched. I watched the first season and and uh, it's amazing how well it holds up. Honestly, it's a it's a it's a pretty unique show. Um. I mean, thinking back, my favorite

scenes were two things. You know what we're working with Jimmy. Um, you know, I just love working with him. Uh. I remember seeing that you know where I come in. I gotta I gotta give him bad news and it pisces them off. And you know, I like that scene a lot. And then uh, very rare scene with my wife because uh, mostly of the guys with the guy, the girls with

the girls. And uh we had one scene when when the tony sopranos in the hospital and Sylvia has to take over and uh, and he's getting dressed and then she is there, you know a little bit of the Macbeth thank but it was it was that was that was are the two scenes to stand out in my mind. Okay, you talk about your political awakening, being in Europe being asked questions about America, and there are a lot of

vivid scenes about that, democracies in crisis. What do you think of the political world today and what you or anybody in the music business or music and anything can do about it? Well, that's uh, that's a good question. Um. I think we're in big trouble. I think we're in the biggest trouble, uh, possibly of our history, certainly since uh eighteen sixty. I think we are very much on the verge of a second civil war. On he my dog waking up. We are in a huge trouble right now.

And I keep asking where are the tough good guys. That's uh, because we're in a war and uh and only one size fighting it. And I felt this way for a long long time. And arguably this board goes back to our founding. Um, you don't like it or not admit it or not, we were founded as a male dominant, white supremacist, um Christian nationalist oligarchy. That's how we re formed, as what most of our constitution said, and um, luckily we had a few more enlightened founders

who snuck in there. The liberty injustice for all bits and pieces that we've been trying to live up to ever since. But at this point Republican Party has completely returned to that same position. Um, and even even more anti American and un American than that. You know, they just have lost all interest in democracy, in uh, in equality, uh and even in science. So it's uh, we become we've become this this dangerous uh, dangerously close to civil war. And I see it's not just us, it's it's the

problem is all around the world. I just did two tours around the world and gets a mess all over the place. You've got a problems from Australia to Indonesia to Hungary. You know, either it's either it's fascism or it's religious extremism, and uh we got both going on here. So so so you know, um, I'm hoping the Democrats wake up. Uh if they're the only game in town,

it's left. But what they're doing to this show Biden, I mean, you know, you got love the guy and I root for him every day, but he's not getting you know, it's been one unforced era after the other. I mean, just the concept of bi partisanship. It's just uh, a tragic sort of frame of mind when there is no by by means too, because we don't have to legitimate political parties anymore. I mean, if people were trying to make him sound and act like a senile old man,

they couldn't do a better job of it. Okay. Uh, there is no bi partisanship possibility now. Uh, that was the first unforced Sarah Merrick Garland. I mean really, Uh, what was don knots not available? You know? I mean an attorney general. It should be Malcolm Nance, it should be you know, and people, well, you're not an attorney. I don't, I don't. We don't need an attorney, We need a general. You know. Uh. Afghanistan an absolute disaster. I don't care what anybody says. I'll argue this all

day long. Okay. All we had to do was keep Kab, keep one town. Was they had at least a hundred fifty thousand soldiers that people are saying three hundred thousand. Let's cut that in half with a hundred fifty thousand creating an impenetrable perimeter. We could have kept the two air for the two bases and Kabul and I think a few more cities as well. Now, where is that accomplished, That accomplishes the main goal of all of our fun policy,

which should be don't allow anymore Islamic states. All right, there's only four, you know, and and and they are the epitome. And the ultimate example of human rights violations by definition, is the problem with Palestine. Right now. I've been fighting for a Palestine homeland my whole life. I'm not gonna do it while Hamaz is in charge, forget it, all right, not gonna happen, man, al Right, I don't believe in human rights violations. And that's what surial law is,

that's what Alamic state is. And we just gave it to him. Man, And what does that mean? That means those hundred cats died in Vain, they died for nothing, just like the fifty died in Vietnam. It's exactly the same thing. Okay, when you when you you know, in this case, they had a really good reason to die. If we had kept Afghanistan, you know, at least a

city or two kept it from becoming Islamic state. There's plan to justify then, just for the women, the women's rights along justifies that, you know, then those hundred died for good reason. Fighting Islamic extremism. That's something that's that's a war worth fighting every day of the week, you know, any religious extremism, but certainly Islamic, you know, I mean, you know, and instead, you know, we I mean, how could he follow Trump's plan that didn't alarm bells go off?

If you're doing something you Trump suggested? What the hell's the matter with you? And the incline and all the guys around them, What were they thinking? You know, Yeah, let's get out of the forever war? What about the forever war in Japan and Germany and Korea? What about that? We're there for a reason, and it's a good reason, you know. It's it's called keeping an eye on things so we can maintain some freedom and democracy and all

those good things. Man. You know, instead it bandons Afghanistan, you know, and God knows we're not going to go. It ain't gonna be good. It's one unforced ver after the other. Cuba is another one. Yeah, follow Trump's plan on Cuba? What a good idea? You know. Cuban right wing have been this to me off ever since they got here. You know, they hate for they hate the Castro brothers, so much that they want to vote for Trump.

That makes sense. Huh, you know, come on, man, I mean, these people don't give a ship about their own brothers and sisters in Cuba. That's what pisces be off. You know, they think a boycott hurts the fucking Castro brothers. What what planet do you want? You know, the idiots, they're idiots, you know, And you know, of course we should normalize

relations with Cuba. Of course we should. You know, anyway you want unforced that after the other man, and and you know, and right now, uh, you know, these two, these two fucking little life bene Edictonald Twins, Mission and Cinema, they're gonna kill the Democratic Party and they kill Biden's presidency and they may be killing democracy. That's how bad things are right now. I mean, twenty states are already passing laws. Twenty states, all right, they're already passing laws.

Not just voter suppression. That's what everybody talks about. It's a voter nullification. Everybody needs to learn the word nullification. That's what's going on. And that means it doesn't matter who we vote for. Suppression can be overcome. It shouldn't exist. But it should, but it can be overcome like like you know, Stacy Abels didn't in Georgia, so overcame it. Nullification is the whole another trip. That means it doesn't

matter who wins. They sort of vote to the garbage camp and the state legislators decides who wins, which is exactly what Trump was trying to do, you know, last last election. Well, now what's happening for real? You know, And I mean we are in big trouble and I don't see I don't see the good guys rising to

the occasion here. Man. We'll see, we'll see how they if they go after the subpoenas you know, for January, the January six to you know, if they actually put these suckers in jail, they're all right, you know, maybe maybe we got a chance here. But I'll see it. I mean, look look at the look at the sentences are getting. Look at the sentences these guys again, you know, for tresh passing, you know, six months for you know, violation of some curfew or something. Excis sort of the government. Man,

what what kind of sentences these people getting? You know, I mean it's just you know, you keep play cating and playcating and playcating, and we've done it all of our lives. Man, What what other country puts up statues and names army basis after the cats were trying to overthrow the government? Only US assholes do that? You known to play kate, play k play k don't don't want to piss them off too much? You know, then we try to end America. You only try to overthrow a government.

You know. We don't want to piss them off too much. I mean, what the fuss are mattering with us? Were are the tough, good guys? Man? You know that? So I don't know, man, I don't know what going here, but it ain't looking good. It ain't looking good, Okay. I thought that once they got rid of abortion there'd be riots in the street. Leaders to say that didn't happen. By the same token, we had spontaneous demonstrations around the world with George Floyd. What will be the trigger to

make those on the left wake up and take action? Well, that's that's a that's a good question, because it should have happened by now. It doesn't help when all the anchors on TV use the word abortion instead of equal women's rights, because that's what we're talking about. We're talking about women's equal rights. What they do with those rights is their business, you know. And every time we say that we're abortion abortion, abortion, it's like we like abortion.

Nobody likes abortion. Who likes abortion? Nobody? Okay? And if you're serious about not liking abortion, there should be a lot more sex education. We should condoms everywhere for free and a healthy encouragement of oral sex. If you get rid of abortion, you get rid of rape. So what's the problem right now? In Texas? A father can rape his daughter, all right, and then get ten thousand dollars with the bounty if she goes to she goes and tries to have an abortion. He can get paid for

rape and his daughter in Texas. Okay. I mean we are insane, man, We're losing our minds. And I wish I could answer that question bile, because that's the question. What was it gonna take for these guys to wake up? I don't know. But Joe Biden, you know, he's living in the past. Man. I'm sorry. You know, he's a right guy at the wrong time. And Obama was too. I hate to say it, you know, as much as I just love the fact that we could elect the black man in the country this prejudice. I mean, it

was a miracle. But you know again, you know, bringing a knife to a gunfight. Now he's not even bringing a knife in his gunfight. He's bringing you know, I don't know what you know? And I mean it can't go on much longer. I mean two is around the corner. Okay, you happen to watch Do you watch Bill Maher? Yeah? Did you watch the new rule last Friday night when

he played it out? I think I was on the show last Friday, was on the you're on the first segment, So did you want did you watch what he played it out with the legislatures, etcetera. I had to go to another event, and it's everything we know. I mean, you know what's going on. Uh w. They have their own slate there. You know, they're get they're taking away the power of the Secretary of State, the people in charge of you know, it's like it's all obvious that

what's going up now is fighting fighting. The veracity of it is not about getting him back at power. It's about winning in that's right, and and and and and and really is all you need they don't even need twenty four All it is three more votes in the House and one vote in the Senate and it's over. Biden becomes you know, Jimmy Carter. Okay, just a couple of things. I'm gonna let you go. So you literally talked to Bruce every day. What do you talk about?

And how long was that period where you were kind of on the outs? We um, you know, I I talked about our three our three big fights of our lives, and and and we were reconciled pretty quickly, you know, well from all of them. Uh, we don't we don't leave it out there too long, you know. And I think that comes from our basic bond, which is, you know, really pretty solid, coming from when we were kids and and we were the only other freaking town man, you know.

And you know, if we're the only freak, you know, maybe there's something all with you. But if it's two of you, you know, maybe there's hope, and maybe there's gonna be maybe around and something, you know. And I and we really needed each other at that age, and I think that really bonded us forever. You know. Um, So when when we fight or you know, we have disagreement. They didn't last too long. They really donna last too long.

But you literally connect with him every day. Yeah, I'm almost almost, you know, you know, might might miss a day or two here and there, but we text, you know or something. You know, what do you what do you talk about? Whatever is going on? You know, it's like getting two friends. You know. We were you know, rooting for rooting for his daughter in the Olympics, you know, and man, that was something that was exciting. Come away

with a silver metal, you know. Um, and we talked about all kinds of different things were um, you know, we're doing a big event. This is this Sunday is gonna interview me about the book? And uh, man, no whatever and whatever. Okay, So let's say, hypothetically, I waive my magic wand you are completely in control of Bruce and the Street Band. What should be their next step? What should be the direction if you are in charge? Well, I think I think at this point it's just it's this.

It's this kind of obvious, isn't it. I mean, we uh, you know, hopefully this virus will cooperate and we're a little bit of luck to be back on tour next year. Um, I think, you know, playing inside might be a little bit dodgy for a while, so maybe we'll probably start outside. You know, it would be my guests. And I'm guessing right now, okay with your magic wand I'm guessing, uh, you know, but if we do go out, it will probably be go out for two years. I would like

to go to some new places. I always do. I'm always arguing for that. Um you know, uh, maybe a little bit more time in the Far East, but we don't spend much time in you know, maybe Dubai, so maybe Israel, just to piss off those boycott people, you know, I would just like to do that effort for just you know, they've been, they've been, you know, as obnoxious as humanly possible. And we never even had it on

the schedule. You know. It was like, how dare you think about playing Israel's not gonna hear all these adolescent insults to me videos. I'm like, we never even thought about it, but I'm thinking about it now, you know, So you know I'd like to go. I'd like to do with places where we have been. It's always fun to break in a new crowd, you know, I mean China, man, you know, we gotta get to China soon. I went

to China for one day. I was trying to get my radio show on there, and um, I wanted to be the first Western DJ and China to tign them off right, you know. And uh. And I talked to some people and I said, you know, too many people come play here. And they say, well, we don't really like live music too much. I was like, what do you mean. They said, well, we're so we're they're so used to lip syncing, you know that that live music.

This sounds too sloppy. Was like, oh, man, we gotta get to China soon before it's too late, you know, yeah, we gotta we gotta start changing those heads around. Man, come on, you know too sloppy. We take great pride in our sloppy is you know. But the only thing in terms of records, you and me both know, the landscape has completely changed. The action Spoti type spotify tough. If you are nowhere nearer as big as the action

the sixties, never mind the seventies and eighties. And if you are an act, you could put out a record and people don't even know. So I was thinking, Max Martin, who I barely know, met a few times, talked a few times. He started out as a real rock musician. How about if Bruce tried to make a record with him. You know that This is what Paul McCartney did about twenty years ago with Nigel Goodrich. He worked with Radiohead and then Nigel said, you know, I think it could

do better on a song. This is writing a song, And Paul McCartney says, I'm Paul McCartney. No, I I know it's done. But I think you know that you talk about Hungry heart Land, all that dancing in the dark. I think there could be another one. Well, I you know, you can't rule it out because because there's no there's no real rules. Um I think uh, I think, well, what happened the first time, it could happen again, which

was a real ground swell. We were so popular live they started to become a problem for radio not playing us. You know, there's as a certain point if you can actually get that groundswell going. I'm not sure you know it could happen exactly the same way, but I think it's possible. You know that just in the middle of let's say our next tour really just explodes and selling out multiple stadiums everywhere. You know, you might have enough momentum to just start having radio loosen up a little bit.

You know, I don't know why classic rock refuses to play new things. I don't get it. I've done speeches at their conventions and talk to them. I know them all. Half of them are running my my show in syndication, and I'm like, why, you know, why would you play Hey June every two hours and not play a new song by Paul McCartney. Why why would you play Brown Sugar every two hours and not play a new song by the Stones? You know, I don't get it, and I agree with you. But the ship is sailed. Radio

is nowhere near as powerful as it once was. Both that's good because the gatekeeper is not as strong. That's bad because the rest of the rule is the tower of Babel. Well that's the thing. You say that that, but that that. But the point is, let's just assume, for the sake of discussion, there was that definitive track, which I don't think Bruce has had recently. But we we won't argue about that. You have that definitive track. Those people at Spotify etcetera. They are dying to make

their bones on ship like this. They will give it a good shot. These alternative sources radio, Yeah, the old people who listen to radio, etcetera. But the active buyer is online. I'm just it's possible. I'm just not sure. Uh, the infrastructure that we now exist in, Uh you can have that mass shared experience. I don't know. I don't think. I don't think you can have it. It's too fragmented,

isn't It's too fragmenting. I mean it is. But as you stated earlier, rock is it the bottom in terms of recordings, not in terms of live So if you look at this track that Max Martin did with the Weekend and the Cold cold Play, cold Play was never gonna have a hit without Max Martin. The song is not a one listened smash, okay, but gigantic success. I'm not saying Bruce needs to sell out. But you know, I had this discussion what the fund is his name?

You know, the hopper, Dave Cobb. Okay. I was talking to the manager's good friend of mine, manages Garth Brooks. Garth Brooks very loyal to his people. I said, hey should work with Dave Cobb, and he says, you know, it's not my choice. Garth is loyal to his people. But I think, first of all, Dave Cobb will be a perfect match for Bruce. That's what he does. But if you want to single, you work with Max Martin

worst case scenario. It's a learning experience. I'm not saying somebody to sell out just to pull you into a different space. But I'll get off my soul box and I'll go to my final thing here. Okay, you read the book. You've had so many experiences that if you die tomorrow, you know you've had a great life in the anywhere from one minute to twenty five years. You have left anything left and left that you want to do accomplish personal career wise, well, I don't know, I

I really have in some ways. I just kind of discovered a whole new way of making records and writing songs, uh, which sounds funny because it's the way everybody else does it. But my last my lowest album is the first fictional album I've ever done, you know, and uh and and and fiction is fun, you know, it takes a lot of pressure off U, all this life and death stuff.

So I don't know that. I wonder where that could go. Um. I got five completed scripts and twenty five treatments, uh, any of which I think would be really enjoyable TV shows. I like to do more of that. Um. Live, I love producing live events the most. The Broadway show I did. I think it was the high point of my artistic life. I I love, you know, writing, directing, producing, and and really uh doing something that is entertaining with substance live.

I mean, there's nothing quite like live. So, you know, as as much as I love TV, and I have a couple of movie ideas as well. Um, we'll keep the Disciples Soul going if I can. But you know, I like, I like, I like doing a lot of things. So it's just a matter of staying busy and uh finding a patron to pay for it. That's my That's my goal in life, you know, and then maybe maybe I'll achieve my ultimate goal life, which is breaking even. Okay, Stephen, this has been fantastic. I want to thank you so

much for taking the time to talk with me. My my my pleasure. I've always get type of liver. Okay, until next time, It's Bob Leftstax