Steven Wilson

you to make new music today? Well, you know, I'm I'm sort of one of those people that years and years and years and years and years ago when I was when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, fell in love with the idea that I could make records, and for me it was a magical thing and a gift to be able to do that professionally. So I've made it my business to make rather a lot of them. Actually,

I'm slowing down a bit. There was three years between this album and the preceding one, which is almost unheard for me. But as an excuse, I did get married Eden and acquire a family in the meantime, so that

kind of slowed me down a little bit. Yeah, No, I mean, I've I've just you know, I've just been in love with the idea of making records ever since I can remember, even before I knew what things like producer lyrics, you know, even what those words I was reading on record sleeves, even before I knew what they meant, I kind of subconsciously and intuitively knew that's what I was going to end up doing, and that's what I've dedicated my life to doing. Okay, you have this new album,

the Future Baits. What was the inspiration for that? So I wrote a couple of years ago, and and really the idea of the future bias. There's a couple of themes go on on the record. One I guess that the dominant theme is about how sense of self and identity have changed in the Internet era. So the idea that we now, well, let's just say that before the Internet, we used to look out as a species. We used to look out at the stars. We used to look

out the world with incredible curiosity. Now we spend most of our time gazing at a little screen to see how many likes, how many comments, how many views, etcetera, etcetera. So the idea that now we see ourselves pretty much reflected back in the mirror of social media, and how that has affected us as a species, how that has affected the course of human evolution, because I really believe

it hasn't quite severely. So the album deals with a lot of the kind of issues spinning off from that new era, I guess of what I call the new era of narcissism. Okay, you said you wrote it a couple of years ago. Yeah, So what was the interim about. Well, right here in the UK about two eighteen, we were going through this hideous thing called Brexit. In fact, we're

still going through it. It was a very very depressing time. Um. I was kind of, you know, seeing on social media the increasing polarization of people, you know, the belligerents, what I call the politics of hate really coming to the fore that that whole thing brought out some of the

worst aspects of humanity, seemed to me. And we were also in the middle of the Trump administration, so ditto to that really, So I you know, I I think I felt for the first time in my life, I wasn't really looked looking forward to the future particularly, and of course, low and behold, just as I finished the album, along comes the pandemic and it's become even more sadly

and ironically, it's become even more relevant and even more topical. Okay, just to be clear, you wrote it was there an interim between writing it and recording it, or you just held the album back because of the pandemic. Yes, so the album is finished last January, so it's just before the pandemic came along. It was being scheduled for release, and then of course as soon as it kicked in, we pulled it and and now it's just come out. Okay.

But in your particular case, because most people will hold albums back, it's primarily because they want to associate the release with the tour. You have a very dedicated fian base. Do you find that the were maximize's consumption or use some more tickets if there's everything happening at the same time,

what's the thinking there, Yeah, for sure. Ideally right now I would be on tour, I would be doing record store signings, I'll be doing TV appearances, whatever I can do to to kind of bolster up the you know, the record, But I can't do any of that, So ironically, I'm left with the only thing I can do to promote this record is social media and making videos and posting that sort of stuff online so I can reach

my fan base that way. Um, I think the idea of originally of postponing the album wasn't necessarily to do with touring. It was more to do with I wasn't sure when the pandemic first kicked in, and when Lockdown first kicked in, I wasn't sure if it was the right time to release a record that was essentially about the dystopian world that we lived in. And I'm still not sure that the truth is, I'm still not sure, but I didn't want to hang onto it any longer.

I felt like a year was already more than enough, you know, to hold it back. Well, the historically there have been great dysturpian records. Are do you feel that you're a pioneer of the twenty century or is anybody else carrying the flag with you? I don't know. I think there's lots of people. Certainly there's going to be lots of people writing songs about, you know, what the

human race is going through right now. I've no I've no doubt there already are many records that have been released in the last few months that deal with that. The difference for me, I suppose, is I have a commitment and a dedication to the idea of the album as a continuum, as a journey as a kind of analogist with a film or a short story. I love that. I love people. I love the idea of people sitting down and listening to a record in the way in the same way they would engage with a movie from

beginning to end. You wouldn't just watch a scene of a movie in the middle, would you. You'd watch it from beginning to end. So that kind of art of listening, which I think is definitely being what has been and is continuing to be compromised and eroded by what they called playlist culture, um is you know, I I do find myself kind of unusual in that respect. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I don't think there are many of us left committed to that idea of

the album as a continuum. And that comes from from way, way way back when I used to listen to my dad, you know, playing Dark Side of the Moon and my mom playing the classic Dona Summer Georgia Moroda records. Just I'm sure, if you know, many of those have, like this sidelong, what I would call disco symphonies. So I was just completely in love with the idea that you that music didn't have to be about the three minute pop form. It could be something much more sophisticated, much

more in the long form in that sense. So I'm still committed to that idea. I find it hard to let go of that, even though I know it's kind of an old fashioned idea in the age of Spotify, streaming and playlist culture. But I have it. As you said, I have a very dedicated fan base, so I know there is still people out there that feel that way too. Okay, de fire, what you mean by playless culture? Well, so

these days people aren't interested in albums, They're interested in songs. Okay, So rather than somebody actually listening to a song they really like, hearing a song they really like on the radio or you know, on YouTube or whatever it is, and saying, wow, I love that song, I want to find out what else that artist has done and listened to that too. People don't tend to do And obviously I'm generalizing here, but I think a lot of people now they don't have that mentality. Uh, it's the song,

that's all they're interested in. They don't care what the what the rest of the albums like. They're not interested in in what else that artist might have done. And that's completely anathema to me, because I grew up being fascinated by the cult of personality. So I would get into an artist and immediately I fell in love with the song. I wanted to hear the record. Not only didn't want to hear the record, I wanted to hear

all the other records in that artist catalog. I wanted to understand the trajectory of that artist's career, the bad stuff, the good stuff, the amazing stuff, they're not so good stuff that fails. I was fascinating with all of that. And I don't think that's true a lot of perhaps the younger generation of listeners now, they just like a song. They're not interested in finding out much more about the artists.

They're not interested in hearing the album. They're not interesting, certainly not interested in here, you know, in being you know, familiarizing themselves with the whole catalog of a particular artist. That's what I mean by playlist culture. Okay, what do you view the general landscape of music today? Being the way I always say, you know, I grew up in the air sixties and seventies, where music drove the culture.

There was faltering with corporate rock and disco. At the end of seventy nine, there was another injection as a result of MTV. Music is still very influential. But I don't want to answer the question for you. But today's things have changed. How do you view the landscape of music today? Are you optimistic pessimistic? Two things need to change?

Will there be an evolution? Yeah? All of the above. Really, I mean, you know, I think it's true to say there's more music coming into the world than any other time in history right now. It's crazy. I mean the amount of songs. I think Spotify get some like ten thoud new songs added every day or something crazy or week, I forget what it is. Anyway, it's a lot. Anyway, there's a lot of new music being made. And a

part of that, of course, is the democratited eight. Democratization of making music by the fact now that it's very easy for anyone to buy a cheap piece of software, put it on their laptop, and they can make music in a reasonably high quality. You know, um plug ins, virtual instruments. Pre preset culture enables people to sound like their favorite artists almost instantly, just by pressing the right button or choosing the right option on their on their

on their computer, laptop, on their laptop. So I think that's good that people are able to make music. Unfortunately, um, the downside of that is that most of that music that's being made is extraordinarily generic. And that also is a problem and a symptom of the preset culture. When it's very easy to sound like everyone else, that's what happens.

Everyone does sound like everyone else. So you don't have those kind of um, you don't have that kind of situation you have perhaps in the sixties and seventies, the eighties, even the nineties, where people had to find their own tone, their own sound, their own personality because it wasn't easy to sound like anybody else. Um. So I think that's that's the downside of of the ease of accessibility of now making music is that everyone pretty much sounds the

same as everyone else. I'm you know. But on the other hand, I'm I'm kind of talking mainly about rock music here and I and I acknowledge the fact that I come from the tradition of rock and classic rock music. That's what I grew up with. But there is a new generation of music which does sound much more fresh and is much more contemporary, is much more innovative, which has come out of electronic and urban music in the twenty one century, and I've been immersing myself up a

little bit more in that world. I don't like it all, but I'm fascinated by it because a lot of the people that make it are kind of doing things that rock musicians don't do. That it's kind of like they don't know what they don't know, they don't know the rules. They're not kind of burdened with that kind of legacy of the Beatles and led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd the way I am and a lot of my musicians in my generation are. They're not burdened by that, and they're

doing some extraordinary things. So I do feel, you know, um, that there is some really interesting music going on. I just don't feel it's coming from the you know, the kind of area that I came from, the classic rock background. It's there's nothing coming from that background that that kind of interests me these days. What are the rules that these young people are breaking because they don't have the history that is burdening them. Well, one of them, for example,

is just in terms of structure. They have no interest. I'm talking about, you know, people like Kanye West, Billie Eilish, Kendrick Lamar, those kind of guys. They're they're the big names that you know, you you might pick out pick out of the current scene, but there's a lot of

other people doing it too. If you listen to the music those guys make, there's no adherence to anything what you might call a conventional song structure, and that fascinates me because of course I've grown up with all of those legacy artists understanding that the whole notion of introverse chorus, first chorus, middle eight chorus, you know, the classic kind of tim panale structure that are that are apparently a great pop song has, although of course there's been exceptions

to that, but these guys don't. They don't kind of seem to care about that at all. And I like that because it makes the music unfolding more unpredictable ways, and in a way that reminds me that's like going back to what, you know, what I was talking about the beginning, this idea the albums could take you on a journey, and part of the the appeal of that

was you didn't know what was coming next. You didn't know what was coming next on a concept album, you didn't know what was coming next if a if a song was ten minutes long. Um, So that adherence to classic pop song structures seems to be disappearing and I kind of I kind of like that. I kind of applaud that that that interests me certainly. Okay, you know, there's been a lot of documentation that you have to put the hook up close so that people don't skip

the song. Is that something you think about when you're making new music. No, I don't. You know, the only thing I think about when I'm making new music is just getting myself excited about it. That's all I think about. And I've I've had this question come up in you know, various different forms. Do you think about your fans when

you're making music? And I really don't. And it's an incredibly selfish way to go about your career, But I believe that's what an artist is, that someone who's essentially very selfish. You know, people talk about the music industry as if it's one thing, and of course it's never really been one thing. It's always been at least two things. It's been the entertainment industry and the music in industry,

and there's been a crossover. Of course, there has in certain in the case of certain artists, but generally speaking, I believe art is something that is made by people who have this kind of vocation to do something which comes from their very being, and they have to be true to themselves. And that's where we get to these

words like integrity, you know. And then there's the other side of the business, which is, you know, the reality TV side of the business and the very kind of contrived modern pop side of the business making songs that will fit a particular demographic fit on daytime radio that basically look at what their audience want and try to give it to them, or worse, look at what radio produces want and streaming services want and try to give

that to them. I'm actually incapable of doing that, and I think anything, I think anyone that has integrity and considers themselves to be an artist would also be largely incapable of doing that too, because there's something about creation and being an artist and being a musician. I think that you means you have to kind of do what

you do in a vacuum. So you're absolutely right. I mean that that whole thing about, you know, modern pop music being almost a hundred percent about the lead vocal now, no intro, no solos, no characters of the backing track at all, just all about the lead vocal. And that does sadden me a bit because you know, obviously I grew up in listening to music where the music was often as important, if not more important, than the top

line vocal melody. And what do you think about the overuse of the elite drum sound and the lack of melody in so much of today's current music. It's interesting,

isn't it. How how rhythm has become so fundamentally important but more important than melody in modern pop. That's something obviously I don't particularly I mean, my album is still incredibly melodic, and I worked very hard to make it um, you know, very strong melodically, as well as being hopefully sophistication and having all the other stuff going on too. But you're right, you listen to modern pop and it seems that often the hooks are kind of the things

that my kids were chanting the playground. That's about the level of banality that a lot of the hooks have almost like you know, playground chance, but it seems to work for them. And then the music is, as you say, is this kind of it's all about the rhythm and it's all about the base. There's not a lot of what you might call harmonic movement in in modern pop

music with you know. Again, with some exceptions, Taylor Swift writes great melodies, for example, great great harmonic shifts in her music, but a lot a lot of the modern urban R and B artists now are just basically creating a rhythm track and then playground chance over the top.

It seems to me, Okay, you're blowing my mind. I have seen Porcupine Tree, granted that you know, seventeen or eighteen years ago, and I certainly have followed your career and I see your picture associated with different certain works that you've done. You always seems so serious. I'm talking to you now. Not only can you talk fluidly, you're so are you date? Where the hell did all this come from? Um? Well, I'm very you know, I'm very I'm a student of music. I've always been a nerd

um and I've always been very passionate about music. And the history of music. And I've talked a lot about it by b over the ears, you know. I mean, I even have my own podcasts and you have my own podcast where I just basically argue with my friend about about albums. It's called the Album Years, and we pick a year and we basically just argue about what our favorite records are. So I've had a bit of practice at this. Um. You know, it's not only being

able to talk fluidly. You know, there's an ability to analyze in the society where analysis is tertiary. If it's there and all, let's go back to the beginning. So where did you grow up? I grew up just outside, just outside of London, a place called Hamma Hampstead. Okay, And what did your parents do for a living? So my parents was an electronic engineer and my mother worked in the local bank. So there was no there were before you asked the question, there was no sort of

history of music in my family. How many kids in the family. So I have one brother who's a couple of years younger than me, who again has nothing to do, nothing to do with music. He has a proper job. But I I think my parents, Um, As I kind of alluded to earlier, my parents were certainly responsible for me falling in love with music because they kind of brainwashed me, you know, when I was too young to

even understand in a good way. I mean, when I was too young to even understand what I was hearing. They were playing great records and I would hear them on repeat. You know, the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever, Abbot's Greatest Hits, Dark Side of the Moon, Tubla Bells, you know, Frank Sinatra, these great records, and I was brainwashed. And still I feel like those records I heard as a kid when my parents played them are still very

much the foundation of my of my musical DNA. But ever since then, i've i think partly also because of my parents and the kind of eclecticism of what they listened to. I've never really recognized this idea of genre. And I know people associate with me with with a genre particular one. It's never one I described myself as being a part of. I don't describe myself as being

generic in any way. I have no interest in being generic, and I've always been very much a fan of that idea of listening, you know, across genres, being curious about everything that's out there. And I think again that was because of the music my parents listened to. And how much formal education have you had? I left school at eighteen. I did. I did my what in England was my O levels and then my A levels. I didn't go to university because I already knew what I wanted to do.

Um much to my parents dismay, I I kind of was set already on actually what I wanted to do. I would say, probably from the age of about thirteen or fourteen. And did you go to regular public school? You know that these words in different meaning in the UK, but you did not go to a private, elite school. No.

I went to a very regular grammar school. In fact, it was a sports It was called a sports college, which is just a fancy way of saying that they the emphasis in the syllabus was more on sport than it was on the arts. So I had everything stacked against me in that respect. I didn't really have any proper music education even at school, so everything was kind of self taught. But it was all from listening, just being curious and listening. It's as much music as I

could get my hands on. Okay, so you were listening. At what point did you start playing? I think almost as soon as as soon as I realized that I was in love with this notion of making records. I mean just that, just the whole thing of being able to hold something in my hand and say that I did it. That was my ambition, you know, just to hold a record in my hand, and we're talking about good old fashioned vinyl records here. To be able to hold one of those things in my hand and say

this is my record. That was my That was my dream and ambition from twelve thirteen. So I my parents did send me to guitar and piano lessons, and I hated it because I wasn't interested in being um. I wasn't interested in learning repertoire. I still to this day, I can't play anybody else's music. If you give me a guitar and say play me something, I know, I

couldn't play anything. I could only play my music. And so my my guitar teacher would would be furious with me because he'd sent me away with a bunch of homework to do, to learn I don't know, Segovia piece or something, and I come back the next week and he'd say, if you learned the piece, and I say no, but I've written my own and and that was that. That that that was basically what I was interested right from the beginning, just being able to create and beat.

My dad, being an electronic engineer. He built me stuff, you know, that that I had no right to have access to when I was a kid, you know, like a little multi track cassette record, which meant I could start experimenting with overdubbing and ound on sound from a very very early age. And but you know, and I have to say, I was never interested in being a singer a guitar player. What I was interested in was

making records. I didn't realize it at the time, but what I'd kind of fallen in love with was the idea of being the producer stroke or to you know, I remember having el O Records early on and looking jeff Lyn, this guy does everything. That's what I want to do. He writes the songs, he produces, he plays guitar, he sings. I'm going to be that guy. So those

those were the kind of inspirations to me. Those kind of people like Jeff Lynn now were you alone ranger, or did you have friends who talked about this stuff with that helped you in your formative era. Yeah, I had a couple of buddies at school that we formed. We formed our first bands together with m and also

had an interest in music. I had a very very good friend of mine who had an older brother there was about five years older than him, and actually that's how I really became immersed in world of early seventies conceptual rock music, because all the music that was happening when I was at school, when I was at secondary school or high school as you call it in the States, was you know, post punk, uh, sort of the early sort of new romantic stuff, electronic early electronic stuff like

Gary Human and New Order. That was what with the kids were listening to a school. But my best friend Mark had this older brother, Stewart, and he had this record collection, so he kind of he wasn't interested in anymore, so we just kind of borrowed records from his collection, and that's how I discovered things like Hawk, Winn, Camel, you know, all that early seventies conceptual rock stuff. So

that was another big kind of watershed moment. I think him in my childhood, because that's where I found I had access to to this this form of music that had only really happened, you know, ten years before, but it was like it might have well has been a hundred years before. Because we're talking about the eighties here.

No one talked about music from the early seven and teas, at least in my in my particular area, it was an althema, right, but not only prog rock everything, you know, all of the musical genres that come out of the seventies, whether it's fusion music, you know, or the whole singer songwriter tradition or progressive or whatever it was, if it came from the seventies, no one listened to it, no one talked about it, no one name checked it. So

I was very lucky. I had this this friend of mine with his big brother who had this amazing record collection, you know, stuff by Aphrodite's Child, you know, which is quite obscure you know at the time. I still is, I guess, you know. Anyway, So that that was a really important factor I think as well in my in my youth. Yeah, Okay, the obvious question, as an American you're eight team, you leave school, what do you do for money, So I ended up being very poor for

a while. I did go and work for a computer company for a couple of years, but I got out of as soon as I could. And for about the first ten years of my career, when when I had Porkepontry and No Man Commentary was still a solo project. No Man was a duo I had with another singer guy, and I did music for TV commercials. I basically got by by doing music for TV commercials. But but that was that was good, and I didn't mind that, you know why, because it meant I didn't have to even

entertain the idea of compromising the other stuff. I was making money and I could do the other stuff without having to think about I've got to make this work for me financially. And it didn't. It was a disaster, you know. Uh. Poukeuponary lost money for years. No Man likewise, and it didn't matter because I had this kind of safety net of being able to do music for for these TV things. I was okay, how did you get

those gigs? Again? I was very lucky. I had a friend of mine who happened to be um in an advertising agency who came to me one day and said it was really funny. It would have been about and he came to me and said, we want we're doing this commercial for Lego and basically the production team want hastiche of Metallica, Master of Puppets. And I said, hey, I'll have a go. I can do that. And I did a really terrible, terrible version of Metallica Thrash Metal.

But luckily the production team were no wiser. They didn't really know what they were talking about it, so they kind of it was really lame, but it kind of convinced them, and I got my foot in the door, and um and and so I started to get more and more work from agencies and and some of the stuff I did later on was was genuinely quite good. So I got a pretty good name for myself. Generally speaking, musicians who are not household names are incredible networkers. So

if you look at yourself, everybody's humble. Do you work the connections certainly back then, work on relationships, or really somehow you blundered through when things came your way. I think the latter. Yeah, I'm not. I'm certainly not very good at schmoozing and networking. Um, I think, you know, largely, I felt most of my here, I felt very much out on a limb. I've never really been part of a scene. I'm not sure if I would have wanted to have been part of a scene. I mean, it's

kind of be careful what you wish for in a way. Um. But it's also been frustrating not being part of a scene, because being part of a scene gives you a big

leg up, you know. I feel like most of my career has been a little bit of a war of attrition, you know, particularly with the genre I was associated with, being you know, persona non grat for most of the nineties and most of the first ten years of this of this millennium too less so now I think it's you know, the kind of world of progressive rock, conceptual rock is a little bit more accepted now, partly because I think the younger generation don't care about genre as

much as my generation did, which is another good thing about about the way people engage with music these days. But for years, it was a struggle to get pressed, it was a struggle to get radio play, um, and I felt like I would have been better off perhaps being someone who was better or at networking and associating with me, part with myself with part of the scene. But I think part of the reason I never did is because I loved I love the music too much.

I loved the whole romantic notion of making music too much, too to to kind of get into that mindset and more cynical mindset I guess you maybe need to get into. I've been very lucky the whole remixing things just fallen into my lap two and I'm sure we're going to come on, Yeah, let's see that. Because I got so you do this podcast? What years do you tend to cover?

Were random? So so basically the idea was a very good friend of mine, Tim Bones, so I've known for more than thirty years, and basically whenever we get together, we'd just nerd off and argue about music. And at the beginning of Lockdown, I was looking for some things to do, you know, creatively, to fill the time that I suddenly had in my hand. And one of these

ideas was let's do a podcast. And I said to him, why don't we just take what we do, you know, naturally on onto a podcast and see if people love it? And the idea is basically, we pick a year at random, and we then go and see what albums were released that year. And the first thing we do is we throw out all the ones that we consider to be canon. So we don't talk about Sergeant. If we do seven, we don't talk about Sergeant Pepper, if we do three, we don't talk about Dark Side of the Moon. There

is nothing left to say about these albums. Nothing, So we deliberately pick ones that we think maybe people haven't heard about. So give you an example. We did and we talked about Van Morrison's Common One as our favorite album of that year, which isn't even an album that Van Morrison fans talk about very often, but for us it's like one of the all time classics and a beloved album. So that gives you a kind of example

of how we go about it. We're trying to introduce people that listen to it, which a lot of them are my fans and Tim's fans, trying to introduce them perhaps two albums that are not part of the cannon, but we think are just as good as those albums. Would we ever picked a year from the twenty first century, we haven't yet. We haven't yet, but we are going to.

We've only done about twelve episodes so far. We've we've I think we've been back as far as sixty seven and as far forward as night So we've been relatively focused, you know, in the last thirty years or thirty thirty five years of the twentieth century. At the moment, let's jump into today's era. We have Van Morrison along ironically with Eric Clapton making a anti lockdown songs. Is COVID Mutate and in you know, basically indeed the UK. How do you feel about that, and how do you feel

about Brexit? Well, I mean, I think I think I mentioned to you earlier on the Brexit for me was something extremely depressing because it brought out it brought out those extremes in in viewpoint, It made people ten times more belligerent, ten times more polarized. It didn't seem like there was any room for discussion or a gray area anymore.

And that was really what the future bias became about, you know, and a lot of that I do lay the blame a lot a lot of that social media, but it's unfair to do that because of course the technology itself is not to blame. It's about the way that, you know, the human beings engaged with the technology that's the problem. How do I feel about Eric Clatton and Van Morrison writing anti what is it they're doing? They're kind of writing and and they're not saying that the

COVID is a conspiracy? Are they? They're not one of those people that they're basically saying, Well, Van Morrison is verging into that territory. But he's basically saying you the lockdown as BS, you should open everything up. We should be able to tour, or we should be able to go to restaurants, etcetera. Yeah, it's kind of pretty responsibility. I mean, I think the thing about Van Morrison is if you really really take a long look at him as a person, you probably wouldn't want to listen to

his music. And I think, you know, sometimes you just have to divorce the art from the artists, don't you, And possibly that's the case with him. Yeah, Okay, let's go back to the remixing things. So how did it fall into your lap? So? I in about two thousand and two, I and my band Pokepine Tree, signed to

an American record label. We signed to Jason Flom's label, Lava through Atlantic, and it was a big thing for us because it was the first time we'd signed directly to an American label, and we thought, you know, we thought, oh great, we're gonna We're gonna crack America. Um and we didn't obviously crack America, but we had a couple of let's let's stop there because I remember, you know, trains I liked on the first Lava record. Why do

you think you did not crack America? Because what we listen, I don't want to blow my own trumpet, and I hate, I hate to do it, but I'm going to do it anyway. I think what we were doing was just

a little bit too head of the curve. Basically, what we were doing in two thousand two, which has been much imitated since, very flatteringly, but no one had done it at the time, was combining extremely heavy riffs with classic singer songwriter with textual ambient music and a lot of sound design elements that you might associate with conceptual rock music. And I don't think anyone had really done

that before. There was a lot of you know, really crushingly great heavy rock records around at that time, but they didn't have the kind of layering and the sophistication in the production that we were that we were doing, and for whatever reason, it just it was the classic case of the record company couldn't figure out how to market. And I don't blame them. I'm not one of those people that lays the blame always at the you know,

the feet of the record company. Andy Carper was the guys signed has worked so hard to try and get it off the ground. But the point is that people just didn't really know what to do with us, didn't quite get it. It was like, well, they're kind of like a heavy pink Floyd, aren't they. What do we

do with that? You know? Um? And I think subsequently that sound became almost, you know, a genre in its own right, and there's been lots of bands now have kind of imitated those early Porcupine Tree records and what a couple of those would be. Well, there's they're not massively successful bands, but there are there are a lot

of bands. There's a label over here called case Scope Music who basically that's the sound of that label, and they have some bands that do quite good business, not probably not in America, but that you know that it became a kind of like a sound and a recipe in a combination that other other bands adopted and and it's one of those interesting things that in absentially the album you talked about they had trains on. It sold nothing when it came out, but it now sells year

in year out, It sells ten thou copies. Every year it sells tenos. Okay, this begs a question. Those two Lava albums, were you happy with them? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I'm really proud of Okay, so how did you fall

into the remixing? You made a deal with Lava, right, so, so yeah, we we've we've gone slightly off topic and we so basically we did those albums and one of the things that the record company came to us and said they wanted to do as part of the trying way to break because they thought, Okay, this band that they've got this kind of conceptual, layered production thing going on, Let's hook them up with DTS and we'll do a five point one mix, and we'll hire Elliott Shina, this

legendary a legendary engineer to do the five point one mix. So cut along, story short, that's what happened. I'd never heard music in five point one. I was completely ignorance of it. I've never heard it, but I said, I'm going to book a studio in London. Send me over the mix I want to hear. I'm a control freak, you know. I'm not going to let somebody just mix the record put it out without me listening to it.

So I hired the studio in in in London, and Elliott sent the mix over and I went and listened to it, and I hated it. I hated it not because he's done a bad job. It sounded beautiful, but it wasn't. It wasn't why. It wasn't the way I would have done it, and it wasn't. It didn't sound right to me. It didn't sound like ust to me. Okay, very very specifically, what was wrong? Do you know what? Bob is? So long ago I can't remember. I think

I hated the way the drums sounded. There's too much reverb on the drums or the guitars were to recess, so literally it literally had to do with the sound of the instrument as opposed to how they were put in. The varying for speakers also also this also this year. The balance and the distribution of this. You know, it wasn't like I said, Elie, it was a you know, master he'd done, he had done what he was doing with it with his other acts. But for me, for

whatever reason, it didn't feel right for us. So I said to the record label, I don't like this. I want to go over there and sit with him and just basically go through it, go through it with him and you know, sort of do it as a as a sort of co co mixing job. And that's what happened. I went over there. I flew over there, and I spent a week sitting there with him while he rather begrudgingly remixed the whole album, and we got something that we both were really happy with at the end of it. Anyway,

it's cut a long story short. While I was sitting there listening to I was thinking, I can do this. This is fantastic. I love this. I'm going to do all my records in it. So I got back and I put myself a little put a little five point one system together in my in my own studio, and from that point on I started to remix all the records I was working on in five point one and

Lo and Behold. Three or four years later, Fear of a Blank Planet, which is a couple of Porkeypine Try albums down the line later gets a Grammy nomination for Best five point one Mix. Where where were How did you get that gig? What do you mean? What do you mean? How do you have a black pianot planet? You did not work on? No, no, no, not the Public Enemy album. No, this is Fear of a Blank Planet. This is a Poke Pine Try album. This is a Poke Pone Trey album that was kind of riffing off

the Public Enemy title. Okay, I guess I was unaware of it. Okay, yeah, yeah, it was the altist. So two albums after an absentially the Pork Pantry album is called Fear of a Blank Planet, So it was kind of a riff on the Fear of a Black Planet was a riff on the public everything. Anyway, that album got a Grammy nomination for the Best five point one Mix, just out of the blue, I mean, and and somebody rung me up one day and said, do you know you've been nominated for a Grammy for your for your

mixed of a Blame Planet? Anyway, So to cut another long story short. My manager at that point started to put out some feelers and say, I've got a guy. He's just been nominated for five point one mix. Do you are you interested in having it? And one of the people that responded in a positive way was Robert Fripp and King Crimson, who I was a lifelong fan of. Anyway, he wasn't completely sure, but he was interested, So I

did a couple of tracks on spect for him. He came up, we played the two tracks to him and by the end of the first track he was jumping up and down his chair and saying, We're going to do the whole King Crimson catalog in five point one. So I started with the King Crimson Catalog. It was very well received. One door led to another a little bit slower, a little bit slower. So what year was the King Crimson remixes? Was two thousand nine. This was

the story of in the Court of the Crimson King. Okay, now, a couple of things. Most people would say five point one is a field format, not so much as S a c D. But it's really for a very small percentage of people who have high level home theaters. So I didn't the market appears to be small and dwindling. From being inside the beast, what do you see are you talking about at that time? Are you talking about right now? Because right now it's growing. Right now, it's growing.

But you're absolutely right. In two thousand and nine, it was dwindling, and part of the reason it was dwindling was because the record companies had given up putting out stuff from five point one. Now, what actually happened was that they put enormous in two thousand. In the early two thousand's, they put an enormous amount of money into

getting stuff remixed into five point one. They were paying like a hundred thousand dollars to get pet sounds mixed into five point one, you know, and a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to get room as mixed into five And then when and then with surprised when they only sold ten thousand units and they didn't make their money back. Now, fast forward to two thousand seven and eight. There's not a lot of people putting our catalog in five point one. But the people that are doing it are making no

money from it. They're doing it as a labor of love. And there is a small dedicated audience four five point one that have been starved of catalog since the record companies had spent so much money doing the early records that they basically completely pulled out. But I was a champion for it, and I started remixing King Crimson, and there weren't many other records coming out at five point one, but the ones that we were ravenously received by the

people that listened to it. And there was still a category in the Grammys for multi channels surround sound mixing, so it was actually relatively easy for me to get the nod the nomination because there wasn't a lot of competition. But people notice things. People notice things like Grammy nominations. So I started with Crimson and then I got invited to do Jethrow Tells Aqual Lung War. You're working with Fripp.

You know. The first album's results of having Gregg League did pretty well commercially, then it became more of a cult item. The obvious question is was that a labor of love? Did you make any money? How many copies of these how many copies of one of these albums would sell? Um, Well, that's a difficult thing to quantify because the fourti anniversary editions were CD DVD A combos, so so that that's the trick. And that's another thing that's changed from those early years when record comans were

doing surround mixes. They're very rarely now released to stand alone. They are considered to be extra value content. And I'm sure we'll come onto this, but nowadays surround mixes are almost always added as a kind of extra to a

box set or a deluxe edition. Um. But in those days, two tend the Crimson fourtieth anniversary editions were put out as CD, DVD A combos and they did extremely well, extremely well, partly because I think it was coincided with the time when bands like King Crimson were being completely

rediscovered and reevaluated, particularly by mainstream media. And Robert will tell you that because he put out thirtieth anniversary editions of those albums around too about and they got no press, and the little press they did get was quite derogatory. When the forty anniversary editions came out, five star reviews

right across the board, it was extraordinary. It was absolutely even for albums that had never been part of the you know, the core favorites of that band we're getting the most extraordinary reviews, and that band started to really start to sell again, and of course that led to him reforming King Crimson around that time too. Okay, let's

just talk at that particular time. You said, at first you did the five point one mixes at your home, and then when you were working with Fripp, did you also do them, and what kind of equipment were you using, and what was the studio experience as you went further into the project. So it was all done in the digital domain. Basically, what would happen is the multi track tapes.

I mean this is true. Pretty much every project have done, the multi track tapes gets sent to a professional tape transfer facility where they baked the tapes and then they transfer them to high resolution digital files. I get sent those files, so I get raw multi track tapes, but

as digitized files. So then part of it for me is just kind of detective work seeing what's on the tapes, making sure everything's there, and then essentially recreating the stereo as closely as possible before breaking out to five point one. And I do all that in Logic, the software called Logic Audio, and it's a very simple set up logic audio basically going out to six self powered speakers, the two at the front, the two at the back, the one in the middle, and the sub the low frequency speaker.

And that was based atally set up in my little home studio. I have a proper studio now, but for years because there's no money in it. No, they weren't paying a lot of money to do any of this. I'm not kidding when I say it was a labor love um and I was just having fun doing it, and you know, and learning a lot, learning a lot by how those guys made those records. It was an education. So making the album of the old days, yes, there

might even be multiple twenty four track machines. Then you have twenty four track, then you mix it down to two track, So we're in the process. Were your teeps coming from all of the also send you the two track? They send you the last version of the track, would you actually get So I'm not interested in I'm not interested in the two track bounced down master. I'm interested

in the raw multi track tapes. So the tapes where the guitar is isolated, the bass drum is isolated, the vocals are isolated, the back in, etcetera, etcetera, and there's no there's no usually no processing at it, so things like reverbs, compression EQ or any phaser of anything like that has to be reapplied to the mix um. So I'm pretty much I'm very much working from from the very raw source recordings upwards. Yeah, okay, Well this is fascinating to me because prior to your work, I was

a hundred percent against remixing the most egregious examples. Although he's a nice guy and a friend of mine, Jiles Martin, what they've done with the Beatles I just find horrific. Okay, it has changed the music, and I'm very fearful that those will become the default products going forward. But when I first listened to your tall mixes, it sounded just like the original, just like with a lot of steel wool scrubbed off, and you were closer. How could you

do that without did you just know the material? Without having the two tracks? How did you get so close to the finished product that had previously been released? Well, I mean I do, obviously I do have the two tracks. I have the CD, I have the vinyl. So what I'm what I'm doing? So my work process is basically to load up the multi track tapes, and then alongside the multi track tapes is to load up the original

stereo mix. And then I'm literally on a pair of headphones listening in little five second chunks to the stereo mix, to the original stereo mix, and then my new mix, and then I'm hearing are okay, they've pushed the lead guitar up a couple of dB there, so I'll do that now. My whole philosophy with this is the people that these mixes are aimed at, the people that these reissues are aimed at, whether it's part of a box set or it's part of a CD combo, as a

stand alone blue ray, whatever it is. The people that are going to listen to these products and buy these products are people that probably have bought these albums at least three times before. They bought the original vinyl when it came out, they bought the first CD edition, and they probably bought the deluxe CD with the extra disc or the bonus tracks. Now you're a expecting them to buy the deluxe hundred dollar plus box set with a blue ray in it or a DVD in it with

a five point one mix. So the point is that these people know the music probably better than the artist. And I say that advisedly because most of these artists haven't listened to their records for years, and I'm the same, I don't listen to my music. So Ian and Robert, for example, the two people we've talked about so far, King Crimson and told they haven't listened to their records for years, and I find quite often I'm fighting them

to not change the music. So Robert will come in and say I never liked that bit, let's you raise it, and I'm saying, you can't do that, Robert, you can't do that because the people that listen have been listening to this record for sometimes for fifty years or forty years or fifty years. It's like a bible to them. It's like a sacred text. So we can't change. And I've had these kind of fights with with some of them. I mean not fights, but it's a heated discussions with

some of these guys. The worst was Greg Lake when I did an e LP album, Greg Lake come mean and saying bless him, you know, rest in peace and all that, but coming in and saying we always played that too, fast. Can you slow it down? I said, well I can, but I'm not going to because I think you're missing the point. You know, this this was Tarkas. You know. I think you're missing the point Greg that this is not for you to to, you know, fix things that you didn't like the way you played it

forty years ago. This is about creating a more immersive, three dimensional version that's essentially doesn't sound in a way, doesn't sound different. But I can't remember what analogy you use. You use, Bob, the steel wool one, but I mean, I always use the analogy. It's like cleaning the Sistine Chapel. It's like just taking off a layer of grime off off of the Michael Angelo beneath, but you're not changing

anything about the art itself. So I'm very committed to this idea of recreating that stereum, all of those mixed decisions that they made in nine or whenever it was figuring out all of those mixed decisions and recreating them because fans don't want to hear any other way. Um, there's kind of a there's kind of a contradiction to work here, which obviously the fact you're remixing in the first place. It's going to sound a bit different. But I think there's a way to do it that it

doesn't jar. It doesn't sound like someone has tried to reimagine the music, and I'm very, very against that. Okay, Is it just technology? How do you achieve a clearer version than the original? A lot of it is technology. I would love to take the credit. You know, I'm doing some incredible act of necromancy to make it sound better. Not really, um, it is the technology working with digital files, not having to work with multiple generations of analog tape.

I'll give you an example. In the Court of the Crimson King was actually recording on eight track, but it was done in the old fashioned way of they would record the band on eight tracks. They would bounce those eight tracks down to two tracks on a second eight track. Then they would fill up the other six tracks on that tape with malotron. They would then bounce that down to two tracks on a third tape and fill up the rest of the six tracks with a vocal. They

don't have to be Einstein to work out that. That means that by that time the drums, guitar, and bass that were on the original reel our third generation analog tape copies with all the attendant hiss and degradation of sound that that entails. So when I get those tapes, I go back to the original source reels and I

resynchronize all of what they call those slave reels. So I'm dealing for the very first time, the very first time anyone has been able to mix that album from first generation copies of the drums, bass and guitar, and that, by definition, gives you more clarity. Less tape is less harmonic distortion. Now, I say that with the caveat that some people like all that ship and one of the complaint it's I have had, and I completely acknowledge it, is that some people don't like the fact that the

music sounds clearer. The part of the sort of sludge and cross talk and tapeist is all part of the experience for them. And all I would say is that what I do probably isn't for those people. And you know, I think there are a minority anywhere, but those purists. It's not for those people. But does that sort explain to you, you know how some of that clarity is kind of coming back in in that respect, and you know,

being able to clean. Yes, and what about in terms of effects, you say, you start with raw and then you add reverb delay whatever is. The modern technology also helped there. The modern technology is amazing. One of the things I hear a lot is that digital can't replicate analog.

I think that was true for years. I think it's becoming less and less and less true, and it's becoming more and more redundant as an argument against digital technology is so good now the plugins what we call the plugins that we use, which are the kind of pro you know, equivalence of what used to be like old outboards,

effects units, compressors, delays, a reverbs. The plugins now are so good, and the emulations of the vintage plug in specifically are phenomenal, to the point that some of the guys that used to use them in the sixties and seventies can't tell the difference between the emulations now. But that's really been happening, particularly the last five six years. They've just becoming There's a company called Universal Audio that make plug ins that are such a high quality, and

they are emulations. So I'm using, you know, when I'm going and remixing aqualung for example, I'm using an emulation of the old e MT one forty rever plug chamber, which is exactly the same reverb that they used on aqualung. It just happens to be a digital emulation of it, which is phenomenal. So that's been also kind of one of the things that's really helped me is these kind of emulations, modern digital emulations of all of the original

analog outboard gear. Okay, we'red you stand on raw source forget remixing, are you someone? You know? There are people who cut on the ANALYG transfer the digital. There are people who talk about digital. They talk about sampling rate c D versus violent, analyged versus digital. If we're starting from ground zero, where do you stand? Let's just say that all these days, everything I do, and I think everything almost everyone I do in the digital domain is

done at a very high resolution. So the days when we were working on digital at c D resolution, you know, sixteen bitty four point one, I mean I'm now doing stuff at K twenty four bits, sometimes even K twenty four bit. The resolution is just off the scale. Um, So I don't think there's any compromise in terms of the quality of digital. But there is something missing from digital, and what it is missing is that it doesn't have

a kind of signature sound the way analog does. Analog does have um It imprints its personality and its signature on the music, and some people like that. I like that, you know, I like I like old records that recording sixties and seventies. Part of what I like about them is that kind of golden glow, that kind of gradual top end roll off that you get with analog. It's a very sweet kind of roll off at the top end. And I don't understand these things. The truth, I'm kind

of bluffing here a little bit. I don't understand this stuff that there are people that really do. But all I'll say is that I grew up in the age of digital recording. I started in the industry when digital recording was very young and it didn't sound very good. These days, it sounds fantastic. And you can cut analog from a digital, a digital recording uh K twenty four bit,

it should sound amazing. It should sound amazing. Okay, I completely understand releasing vinyl records of things that we originally quite ano be al never made any sense to me to have something that we recorded digitally trim through the vinyl. What is your take on that? Well, I think I

understand completely where you're coming from. But I think the one thing you're discounting there is the whole romance and the kind of tactile experience of vinyl, aren't you You know so, I think a lot of the time it's not about the source audio. It's it's you know, a c D made from the same master as a vinyl.

You're absolutely right, what's the point? What's the point where you can get a CD for five bucks and you have to pay thirty bucks with the vinyl and you've got all that surface noise and potential crackle involved too, you know, to contend with I feel that way sometimes, but I also like vinyl and I like to have certain things on vinyl because I love the ritual of final I love the kind of tactile, tangible experience of taking a record off the shelf, taking out of the sleeve,

putting it on the turntable. Honestly, I think a lot of it is that for people. And I also think a lot of people hear things that they want to hear, so when they listen to vinyl. Oh, it sounds so much better than the digital files. I think what they're hearing is the kind of compromises they're inherent in vinyl, the fact you can't cut very high top end to vinyl. There is a natural roll off. So people hear that and they say, oh, it sounds so much warmer than

the CD or the digital file. Yeah, it sounds warmer because they couldn't cut the trouble to the vinyl. So there's a lot. I think there's a lot of that mythology that goes into vinyl. But I have to say I love Final because I love the ritual of it and I have a nostalgic attachment to it as obviously growing up with vinyl. Okay, forget the rituals purely talking

about the sound. Is there any reason to take something that was cut digitally creator the vinyl such that you either have a comparable but different sound or a better sound, or inherently or you're going to get a word sound because of the compromises of vinyl itself. Okay, with the caveat that, it does depend on what the sources. Okay, you know, if you've got if you've got a source file, that is a very high resolution, then it would make

sense to cut its vinyl. If it's a digital file that's CD resolution already in the sense that the artist recorded it as CD resolution is probably pointless. But even then there is the caveat that you may have a fantastic vinyl cutting engineer who will get something out of the audio that the guy cutting the CD didn't get. But these are caveats. Basically your question, The answer is no. The answer is no. Just so I understand you're saying it would be you get a higher chance of getting

good quality if you had a higher resolution digital recording. Yeah, if you've got digital recording that's done at four bit, putting that on a CD, you're naturally having to dial it that down to forty four point one sixteen. You're losing a lot of the information. A lot of the digital information is being thrown away because c D has to be a lower resolution, lower bit rate going to vinyl. That's not true. You have a pure analog wave, which

is a continuous thing. There's no information being thrown away. But if your digital file is already CED resolution, there is nothing to be gained by cutting it to vinyl. Does does that make sense, okay, So tell us how you got the Toll gig. So it came from the King Crimson, you know, the King. It was like I was saying to you earlier, one door led to another. The King Crimson series was very successful, very well received,

very well reviewed. Next thing I know, I get a call from Tim, Tim Shacksfield at e M. I as was then this would have been two thousand eleven. We're doing Aqualung fourth anniversary. We'd like to get a five point one mixed done? Would you like to do it? So that started me off on the whole Toll catalog again. That Aqualu and came out. It was extremely successful because it basically sounded the same as the original all but so much better. And I'm paraphrasing what a lot of

people said about it. You know, I'm not That's not what I think. That's what most people said about it. And again I don't take credit for that. That album was originally mixed onto a faulty quarter inch tape machine. There was out of alignment. So every single version of the album that came out before we remixed it had been from a master that was was mixed onto a faulty machine. So it used to make me laugh when he used to see some of these people on forum saying,

how dare Stephen Wilson remixed this album? The original mix will never be bettered. When Ian himself said, we mixed that onto a machine that wasn't working properly. I've been waiting forty years to fix it. So we fixed it. And it wasn't hard to fix it because the original session tapes sounded beautiful. It was the quarter inch master that was where the problems had come in. So we did a mix of that. It came out beautiful. It sounded much more alive and vibrant and three dimensional insert

your own cliche. And it was very well succeeds, very well received, and I've gone on now and done I think something like ten toll records now we've we've basically also, you know, at what point did you shift from doing in addition to five point one two tracks and how

did that come down? That's a very good question. Um, yeah, we haven't touched on that have weak So what happened was essentially I was hired to do the five point ones, but my first the first part of my process always was to recreate the Sarah stereo mix to the point that I could hardly tell the difference when I beat them. When I would go from the original mix to my new mix. The only thing I wanted to hear that was different was perhaps a little bit more clarity. I

didn't want to hear any difference in the levels. I didn't want to hear any any difference in the reverb treatments, the EQ, the compression, stereo placement I matched exactly to any moves and he rides in the volume, and he moves in the stereo field, something panning from left to right, or I recreated everything meticulously because I wanted the five point one mixed to reflect as closely as possible what the stereo mix that people have been as as you know,

as much as it's possible within thein the surround field, to reflect what was happening in the stereo mix. And basically, to cut a long story short again, while we were doing this, people like Robert and Ian and myself, we're listening to the stereo mix and saying, this sounds better than the original mix. We should include this in the package, you know, as a bonus for people. You know, we won't. We won't take the original mix out include the original

mix two, which is almost always what happens. The original mixes included too. But let's throw in this new stereo mix too, because even though it was a byproduct of doing the five point one, it is it does sound different. It sounds arguably better, clearer. Maybe a little bit of that analog magic has been compromised, but you know what, it's a different perspective. So that was the kind of

mindset originally, let's throw it in. Let's throw it in as a bonus um and a lot of people started responding very very well to the stereo remix, to to the point that some of my jobs have been like for example, the Chicago Chicago second album I just got hired to do a stereo mix of that wasn't even a five And the Sabbath albums I've just done stereo only not that the record company didn't even ask me to do surround mixes. So that was kind of how

that came about. Yeah, okay, just in terms of process, what do you do after you make the stereo mix to make at five point one? You know, in technical terms, on the workstation, I flip, I just flip on each fader. I go from stereo out to surround out. And when you do that, your stereo pan pot becomes a surround

pan pot. So instead of just something where you go from left to right, it becomes a little sort of diagram which is like essentially like a little picture of your room, and it has a dot in each corner where each speaker is, and you just start to break

things out into the room. So I might say to myself, you know, and I really approached it like an idiot, because apart from those mixes i'd seen Elliott do, I hadn't listened to anyone else's mixes, and I just kind of did it like a bit of a you know, kind of intuitive way, like an idiot. So, well, this might sound good, and let's try to put in the backing vocals in the back and and if it sounded

good to me, that's what I went with. And when the mixes came out, I started to realize I was doing it in a way that not many people have done it before. I was doing it quite aggressively. A lot of surround mixes had tended to be quite conservative in that they kept pretty much the whole stereo image in the front and they would just occasionally put a bit of reverb or sound effect in the back speakers.

And I didn't know this because I had seen Elliott doing and Elliott was quite aggresive with his surround mixing. But apparently he's one of the one of the exceptions too. And I was putting all sorts of things in the back, you know, and in the center speaker and moving things around the room, and it just sounded good to me.

This is fun, you know. So they answer your question is, technically speaking, you just get presented with a little sort of pan, a surround pan pot which has a little dot where each of your speakers is, and you just move using the mouse. You just move things where you want them to be in the surround field. It's easy. Okay, Obviously there's been a learning curve and you're much better now. How long did it take you to do in the past?

But more importantly, someone called you today. I just wanted to track and forget the preparatory, you know, baking it. You know that's not done in your studio. Once you get the files. How long from start to finish? Well, that really depends, like for example, I'm doing a project now which unfortunately has to remain nameless, but it's it's a big American record from from the nineties that sold a lot of copies, and the tapes came to me and they recorded. Some of the tracks were recorded on

four twenty four track tapes running in SYNCHRONI station. So I'm loading up these sessions and it's just insane. There's like a hundred channels of information. And the thing is the track sheets that come along, which the track sheets being the original documentation that's like on the tape boxes. They're usually not very helpful because these guys that recorded these albums never really anticipated there's someone like me twenty years later I was going to have to figure out

what's on these tapes ever again. So I'm literally then going through all of these tracks, listening to say, okay, that sounds like a backing vocal label as such, that sounds like it could be a you know, as our sitar whenever it is. I'm listening through and I'm kind of labeling labeling each of those tracks. And this is

before I've done any mixing at all. I'm literally just identifying what is on each track of the multi track, and then I can start to have an idea about what sort of what sort of time is involved this project I'm doing right now, I've been working on since the beginning of the year, off and on, you know, because I have got my other, my other consideration of my record coming out, but I've been promoting that. But I've been working on it on and off since the

beginning of the year. It's probably gonna be the best part of four to six weeks by the time I finished the surround mix of this particular album. But then I've had other records where it's just record on eight track, like when I did I think it was Benefit or stand up for Jethrow Toll. No, this was the first albums record on four track, so I had there was very little, you know, to sort of figure out and do with that. Um so that I mean, obviously that

was a much quicker process. Someone comes in with twenty four tracks, how long do you think it'll do. I'll take me about a week. Take me about a week to recreate stereo mix from a well recorded twenty four track, forty minute album. You'll tell me about a week. And how do you establish a fee? I don't I don't. I don't really care about the money. I mean, I'm in a very privileged position to be able to say that. I always say to the people that asked me, um,

what have you got, it's fine. And the other the other sort of consideration for me is I must genuinely like the album uh and have some um pre knowledge of the album. I must know that. I mean, I'm not going to take on a record that I've never heard before, I don't know, I have no affinity with.

And part of that is simply because I you know, I do acknowledge to myself that the people I'm doing this for are the people that have bought the album over and over again and their fans, and I think I'd have to be able to do a good job. I have to be a fan too, so I have to genuinely be a fan of the record. And at that point I just say to the label or the management or the artist, whoever it is, it's asked me, what have you got? What's comfortable for you budget wise?

And usually it's fine. I've never turned down a job that I wanted to do because of the money. And you get an override or royalty sales, no I would never accept that. Never, it's not my work. It's not my work, it's not my career activity. Even my mix, I'm kind of copying the original guy that mixed it, you know, I'm kind of recreating his mix in a way. So the only part of the process that I'm really being creative is in breaking out into the room. You

know that the surround field. No, I would never on principle, I would never take an override a royalty. Okay, the five month stepard is very important and can change record mastering. So how are these projects mastered? Wow? Wow, you've You've hit on one of my favorite subjects there. Early on, these five point one mixes were being and and the stereo mixes were being sent off to be mastered in various They will remain nameless for some very reputible master

ing rooms. And I had sent the mixes off being really happy with the way they sounded, and they kept coming back and they sounded worse to me. And I remember having conversations some of the guys that commissioned them from me, and I would say to them, you thought that makes it sounding great, didn't you to start with?

And they'd say, yeah, they sound it amazing. Why are you having the master because they're coming back basically compressed with big smiley eques, which is what you would do with a new You might arguably do that with a new record that you wanted to get on radio or you wanted to part when it's on Spotify and the playlist. But the point is that these records were doing are selling to the fans who are listening to them at home, generally on pretty good high fives. Why are we crushing

the dynamics out of them? And this is one of my big bug best crushing dynamics. Um So, I actually managed to persuade almost in every almost every case since say the early days, the first two or three years, these mixes get released by passing the mastering stage completely. So the mixes come out of my studio, they go on the disc exactly as they are, and the labels love that because they say five dollars not to have it masters. You know. Okay, let's be talking about the

very specific equipment, because do an equipment has difference? First hardware, what are you using for a computer? So I'm I'm a I'm a Mac user. I've been a MacUser ever

since the beginning. Um so I just bought myself. I love one of the brand new towers, you know, very expensive, but for Dolby atmost particularly which is what I've now transition to, which is the next step out from five per one, which maybe you want to talk about that too, But anyway, Dolby Atmosses is obviously, as you can imagine, quite process or intensive. So I've got a very very powerful Uh those machines you can buy for five thousand or ninety thousand dollars. How much rem did you put it?

What do you do for chips? I spent about ten thousand pounds, So what's that about thirteen thousand that I forget exactly? I threw quite a lot of ram at it. Yeah, because surround mixing is quite particularly this project i'm doing now, where as I've got a hundred channels of audio and I'm breaking out into Dolby at mooss it's quite it's quite CPU intensive, it's quite memory intensive. And what do you use? How many screens and what screens? I just have one screen, but it's a big screen. It's a

big screen. I can't I can't be doing with the two screens thing. So I have a big screen, one of those ones that kind of curves around you. It's like a wraparound thing, so I can see the whole mix all the time. Basically, Okay, what headphones do you use? Um? I am using? Hold on, I'll tell you audio audio technical? Headphones audio technical? And did you make a specific choice on those? And how expensive are those? Do you know what? They're not that expensive? They're not. I think they're good.

They're good. Um, I did make a choice. They're you know, they're like a three quid pair of headphones. I mean, you can spend three thousand. But the question would become this was like the old days of mixing Tora tones or exactly Yamaha and as ten. You know, you don't want to get too far from the average listener. So a lot of people use these Sony as a standard. How did you discover these audio technicals? I can't remember.

I probably just went to my local music equipment supply and said, you know, I think I bought these headphones not for mixing on. I bought them for probably tracking with you know, I wanted a good pair of headphones to work with when I was tracking vocals and stuff for my own stuff, and I just started mixing on them. I know how they sound, I understand what I'm hearing through them, and of course that's the most important, which

is kind of what you're alluding to. You know. The point is if you know what you're hearing, if you understand what you're speakers or your headphones are giving you, that is a hundred times more important than having the fancy you know, amazing expensive speakers are amazing expensive headphones. And then what speakers do you use? So for mixing in stereo, I use Vocals, a company to I think the Italian company called Focal French. Actually I know, because

I haven't in my car. I beg your pardon, French company called Focal, Yeah, yeah, so I have to. I think they called Triads, the Triads Stery Monitors. And for the mixing instaurround, I use General Lex Jenny Lex speakers, self powered speakers. And why did you choose those specific

brands because Elliott used them. So I used basically my original five point one setup was based on his because he's the only one i'd seen and he was using General X. So I just went out and bought myself five or six General X speakers and now I have Dolby atmos, so i have another seven or eight in the room, but I've just stuck with them. Again. I understand what I'm hearing when I hear general X, I've

I've grown up, you know, hearing them. Okay, for people who at this point still don't understand, explain Dolby atmos. So Dolby, you know, I don't completely understand all of it myself, because it's it's a much more complex thing that five point five one is very straightforward. You've got five speakers, you can put sound in any of the five speakers, and you've got the sub which is the

dot one, which is for the low end frequencies. Dolby ATMOS is more complicated because it's it's it's to do with it's more to do with object orientation, which means you can basically place the sound anywhere in the room. It will sound like it's coming of a particular spot in the room, in the air. I don't know how

they do it, but they do. But the bottom line is that the most standard configuration of Dolby atmost, which is the one I've got, is seven point one point four, which means that you still have the five speakers you have in five point one, the two in front, two behind, the one in the center, and the sub but you have two additional speakers in the horizontal plane which are at the sides, so they fill in between the front and the back pair, so you can discreetly put something

that feels like it's coming specifically right from beside you rather than from behind you or in front of you. And the point four are two sets of speakers above you, two at the front, two behind you, which means you can now move sound not just in the horizontal plane but also in the vertical plane. And it's incredible, and it does mean you can give the impression of literally you can put point something in the air and say that sound is coming from there and point at it.

And that's the incredible thing about Almoss. It's I mean to say it's immersive is an understatement. It's the next level up from from immersive. Okay, you know, Dolby, always start theatrically. How many people you're mixing these records, you're mixing them for home use, How many people have these systems? I've no idea. Um that's never really been a motivating fact for me, and I've always been of the philosophy that if there's there's catalog out there is more likely

people will go out and buy systems. Now, when the Beatles are doing Dolby Atmos, that's a big help. That's a big help. I know you're not a fan of Giles Is mixes necessarily, but the fact that he's done Delby Atmos mixes, the Beatles have done Delby Atmos mixes probably has sent a lot of people out to look at the possibility of putting Dolby Atmos in their rooms. And I think that was always the problem. When I started.

There wasn't catalog like that out there. Um, And when you get people putting out albums like the Beatles catalog in in at moss, then that's such a great kick start to the whole industry. The other thing I think Altmos has got in his favor is that there there are now Again, I don't understand the technology, but there are there are soundbars, and there are headphones that are able to They are able to decode Dolby Atmos mixes and give you a kind of pseudo I think. I mean,

I've heard it. It It was amazing. I heard I listened to one of my mixes on a pair of headphones and it wasn't completely discreet, but you know what it was se of it was there. I don't know how they do it, but that's that's again I think a big advantage is going to have over the previous attempts at creating multi channel sound in the domestic market. Tell me two albums that you've remixed that you're like the most or you're proud of stuff. M Well, there's different criteria.

Then there were some that I'm proud of because I feel we made the most improvement in the sound, and Aqua Lung would be pretty near the top of the list, if not the top of the list, because that was not as as I mentioned before, to that had a

problematic original mixdown phase. So being able to really clean that up and make it shine and sound like it never sounded before, I had a mensum out of proud pride of doing that in terms of actual creatively, the most challenging but probably the most rewarding, Seeds of Love by Tears for Fears was a nightmare to do, uh, but it's one of my favorite records of all time, and the final result was incredibly rewarding just a beautifully

recorded album with great playing, great songs, great performances, but an early generation of digital recording. And another album that took three years to make was recorded multiple times in different studios with different lineups, different arrangements, and then the final versions of the songs would be one version of the song recorded in this year with this band stitched onto another version of the song done two years later in a different studio with a different engineer and a

different band. I mean, it was just a nightmare to piece it together, but I'm very proud that I did and persevered and we got through to the other end, and it sounds terrific. Okay, that was an album that was recorded digitally from source, yes, yeah, And what machine did they use? Do they do use the Mitsubishi or do you know? I think I think it was the Mitsubishi. Yes, And it was recorded forty eight forty eight K, which was you know, that was all the digital machines were

capable of then. But you know what, when digital is recorded well, it can still sound amazing. I'll tell you another example, Skylarking by EXTC another out my remix, which is a beautiful you know, recorded by Todd of course up in Woodstock, and that was recorded. I think, no, maybe I'm thinking the wrong album. No, it's not that album's Oranges and Lemons, the follow up to Skylarking, not the Todd one. Oranges and Lemons was recorded at forty

eight A sixteen bit, which is like CD resolution. But you know what, it sounds amazing. It sounds amazing, And I think sometimes people forget that a great producer and a great engineer is a lot more important than the resolution of the recording. Um, those things are, obviously, they

are important. I'm not saying they're not. But the fact that the album sounds as good as it done when it was a relatively low you know, in terms of digital terms, quite primitive forty eight K sixteen bit sounds phenomenal. Let's talk about that Tard albums. I discussed this with Tard himself. I find there's a signature kind of high end compressed sound that his records have in the final mix. Did you find his mixes like that different from other mixes?

Did you have a take on that? Yeah, his mixes are quite eccentric, in a in a in a in a good way. Um, And of course wasn't particularly a fan of the original mix. Andy Partrish wasn't a fan of the original mix. Um Todd's mixes are quite um. They're quite sort of murky in a nice way. Um quite homogenized. There's not a lot of clarity, and there's not a lot of detail. There is that kind of slightly muddy top end, which I think is what you're

kind of alluding to. This very much a signature to the way the top end on his record sound, which doesn't doesn't allow the instruments to really have clarity or separation, and I wonder if that's something he likes. He likes the fact that mused the all instruments in a sense combine into this kind of cohesive sound rather than sounding like different instruments in a in a mix. If you,

if you, if you see what I'm getting at. So what we were doing with the remix was trying to get into the mix and put some air around the different instruments, which was definitely what Andy wanted. I mean, that's what he wanted at the time, and he didn't get it. So we were kind of trying to reetro retroactively put some of that separation and clarity back into the album. You know, again, one of my favorite albums of all times. So that that was that was one

of my favorite projects I've done year for sure. One would say at the end you ended up with a product that was somewhat different from the one the fans were used to. In that case, we did. Yeah, I have no idea how he made it sound like he did. There is there are occasions where I simply, you know, for all, for all my ambitions to try and replicate the stereo as closely as possible, there are times when I just cannot get close to I cannot figure out why it sounds the way it does. So in that sense,

I just have to get as close. And it could be as simple as they were using some piece of outboard gear that was specially made for them. It was kind of, you know, a a piece of equipment that had been made by some boffin that Todd knew that he was putting through all his mixes through and it did something weird to the mix, and nobody quite knew

what it was. I mean, they're all those stories about those things that come out of Abbey Road, you know, the special Perry combobulator that they put all the tracks through that made it sound like an Abbey Road mix, you know, and all those things are very coveted by collectors of analog outboard equipment. I don't know, so sometimes I cannot get close and I do feel like, you know, I just have to do the best I can. Had you end up working with Chicago, that's the one act

that sticks out your catalog. So that was Steve. Would you know Steve Willard over over Rhino in l a step. I know the guys we started Rynod with Steve. I do not now, Okay, so Steve, Steve the Ready way. He's not the red hair guy, is he? Do you know? I've only met him in person I think once, and it was a few years ago because over in l a hem, not really important. I'm thinking now I think I do not, but keep going. I think he's a

lovely guy. Anyway, he asked me, He asked me, and that was that was a That was a slightly interesting project because the band didn't really know who I was, and they weren't right. It kind of involved in the project, which is unusual for me because usually one of my I wouldn't say it's one of my stipulations, but it's certainly one of my requests, strong requests, is that I would like the band to be on board and approving everything,

um and with Chicago. For whatever reason, Steve was like, no, no, the band are interested, but they're happy for me, you know, you know, do it. And when it came out, the fans really liked it. And then there was a couple of comments from the band that were a bit snotty about it. This kind of English geeks done this mix,

we don't know, and then um, you know. And then the next one they got there they got the Chicago Transit Authority in the the first time, they got it done by their own guy, and I don't know what happened there, but obviously they decided after that they didn't want me to do anymore. But no, So that one was, you know, these projects can come from management, they can come from record label, and they can come from artists. In that case,

it definitely came from from Steve at the record label. Yeah, he wanted me to do it, and I was very happy to do it. Okay, Traditionally the actors not the engineer. Do you ever talk to the mixer or the engineer on some of these projects to find out where they were coming from, what they did very occasionally. Most of them, to be fair, are either dead or retired, so you know, I can't talk to Eddie offered about doing the Yes

mixes because he's retired. He's not interested. But I did speak to Hugh Pagem, I spoke about one of the XTC mixes I did. I spoke to Dave Bascombe, who recorded Seeds of Love for Tears for Fears, for example. So yeah, I've occasionally sort sought their kind of input, no doubt, to dream projects you haven't yet done. Oh wow.

Kate Bush has always been top of my list. Um. I just think her albums would be so perfect for surround um that it's frustrating to me, not even that I would do it, but just that no one is doing it. But apparently she's she's not she's not interested. She's not if she's just not heard surround, or she has and she just didn't particularly care for it as an idea. So yeah, Kate, Kate would be And and the Prince Catalog. The Prince Catalog. Prince was my when

I was growing up in the eighties. Prince was was my hero. He was the guy that had posters on my wall, and to be able to get my hands on on Parade or Purple Rain or any of those seminar eighties records would would be a dream. I mean, just to be able to go into his world. I mean, for me, the single most gifted musician the world of pop has ever produced, to be able to go into his world and deconstruct and reconstruct the music would just be mind blowing for me to be able to do that. Okay,

so this lead deep. Are you a musician or a remixer? And how do you split up the time into what degree? Are you frustrated by one or the other? Oh? I mean my job is to make my own records, and and that would allay. That is always my priority to make my own records. That's what That's what I feel I was put on this earth to do, not to not to tart up other people's records, you know, the tarting up of the old other people? Sorry, is that an amerrit Do you have that express in America times? No?

We don't. Just watching a Last Night and you know they had someone using an expression they don't use and ran and everybody got freed out. So it's kind of funny. It sounds bad, but I don't know what you're talking about it, but they don't. There's certain things that don't mean such a negative things in the UK. It's not rude.

Don't worry, it's not rude. It just means to basically, you know, give give something a sort of clean you know, clean up a bit, or make it look better than it deserves to, or or make it look as good as it deserves too in the case of these albums. So you know, that's not my job. My job is not to but it's become a sideline and you know what, it's one I love to do. And you know, I keep saying to myself, I'm going to try and try and you know, back off doing as much as I've

been doing. But then people keep approaching me with these amazing albums. You know, I'm not going to say no when you know, if principal cap Bush ever did come on, I'm not going to say no. I'm not going to say no when I get asked to do XTC Skylarking or songs from the Big Chair. Of course I'm not so. And as I say, I think there's also an element that it is feeding back into what I do as an artist. Anyway, I've learned so much from from from

being able to go inside this music. I mean, what better education could there be for someone who likes who believes in sonic excellent excellence and it's fascinated with production

um and the techniques of the past and present. What better education could there be than to be able to go inside these classic records and actually have to figure out for yourself because nobody's apart from those engineers that gave me a little help, they don't remember, they don't remember how they did, They don't remember a lot of the time how they got those sounds. So I have to figure out for myself, and in doing so, those things become part of my own tool kit. So the

answer your question, Bob, it's definitely. You know, my day job is doing what I do as as a musician as a songwriter. But I'm very very happy to do this too. I know every year is different, but what percentage of your time has spent on your music as opposed to working on someone else's. I think it's eight twenty.

I mean, as I say, if I get a well recorded album record on twenty four tracks, I can turn it around probably in a week without feeling like I'm rushing it turn around in a week, and I'm doing maybe seven eight albums a year, So you can figure out from that that may be spending a couple of months a year working on the back catalog remixing projects. The next question would be where are you making your money? Are you making your money primarily from those projects? From

going on the road? Music itself doesn't generate as much revenue as used to unless you're drink. I think I've been quite fortunate. I have a I have a substantial back catalog. Some would say there's too many records I've made, and I would be one of those people. I've made too many records over the years. But because I've made a lot of records, and I have a very very loyal fan base which continues to grow incrementally continues to grow, my back catalog generate is pretty good income for me.

I'm never going to be, you know, multimillion or anything like that, but I don't want to be. I don't need to be. I'm very comfortable. I've managed to make a career by basically doing what the hell I want and not many people can say that, And I continue to make it, continue to make a career by doing what the hell I want musically speaking, uh and creatively speaking, I'm completely fulfilled. So my I'm make enough money from my back castalk and I get paid a little bit

to do these remix projects too. It's it's um, it's um. It's not why I do them, and it doesn't matter to me, but it's always appreciated when there is a budget from the label or the artist or whatever. You said. You recently got married. Is this your first marriage? It is? And what was the motivation of this lead deep to get married? I fell in love. I fell in love, Bob, I fell in love. You know. I always thought that I wasn't the sort of person who would ever get

married and have kids. But then I met my wife, Hydrometer. Well, I actually met her. I met her twenty years ago, although we only we really got together properly about four years ago. I originally met her twenty years ago. She's Israeli. She's from Israel. I met her twenty years ago when she's a very young young lady. She was only eighteen years old at the time I met her backstage at a gig in Israel where she was working for the promoter. She wasn't a fan, she didn't know who I was.

But we we kept in touch for many, many years, and about four years ago, um, and she did in the meantime had two kids and I hadn't, so we we got together about four years ago and the rest is history, as they say. So I'm now a stepfather as well as as well as her husband. Now four years ago when she still living in Israel, or she moved to the UK. Now she moved to the UK a long, long time, many years ago. In fact, her first marriage had also been in England. So we've kind

of been in touch all this time. Yeah, Well, it's always tough when you're an artist and you're living in your own head so much to balance home life in work life. And sometimes they're significant others who accept less time and other people don't. So what's it like now that you're married. It's really been four years you said

it's been two years. No, it's been eighteen months since we got married and kind of bought a house together, and most of that time I haven't been on the road, if at all of that time I have been on the road for you know, and during the last year for obvious reasons. But the last time I actually played a show was towards the beginning of two thousand nineteen. So you know, I've been enjoying I've I've since we moved into the new house. I've built my new studio.

It's actually the first time I've really had a proper studio. I mean every time, every every studio I've had before that has really been whichever room I put my computer into my guitars, and that's been quote unquote the studio. And I actually this time, we bought a new house together, we built a proper studio, a proper room on the side of the house, proper acoustically treated, and it's the

first time I've had a really special room. And of course it's all been made dogby atmost compatible, which is great to be able to do that. So I've been enjoying eighteen months being home, being married, being with the kids, um doing a lot of work in the studio, and not having to worry about motivating myself to go out on the road, although I'm beginning to miss that obviously, I am, and that's a big part of what I

love to do well. Are you the type of person who works strict hours or you're getting to run and you might work till two in the morning, or you start for dinner at a specific time. I have a pretty good work ethic, you know. So the answer is the answer to your question is the latter. I do

have a kind of time. I kind of go to the studio around midday and I will work to about seven or eight in the evening, and then I'll stop to have dinner with my family, and then after that I'll spend the evening with my wife, watching TV, watching a movie, listening to records. So the days of me I used to I think I used to do that

thing of going through till two in the morning. But those days, you know a lot of people say that, don't they As they get older, I think they stopped doing that burning the midnight all thing and getting some more of a a routine. And I'm in that stage. Now. Let's go back to the new album. You have an incredible marketing plan with people. Can see the air quote your merchandise tell us about the generation of a thought

behind that. So the idea with the album was I've always been fascinated by by this idea part, you know, part of the what we've been talking about during this conversation. This idea of trying to reconcile the idea of being a professional musician by also being completely true to yourself and having integrity, all that stuff. Blah blah blah. It's a very hard, you know, tight rope to walk, and it's always fascinating me. This idea of music is commerce.

How do you sell music? What is involved in selling music? How do you how do you if you're a creative person, how do you also get your brain to be involved in the commercial side of things, selling yourself, schmoozing and all that stuff we talked about. And I've been fascinated

by that. And one of the things I've been really interested about is how what would it be like to sell a piece of music in the same way that apples are one of their products for example, um, and what would it be like to almost remind the listener relentlessly or the purchaser that they are involved in a financial transaction when theyre buy a record. So kind of riffing on that, I got together with the design and we came up with this idea, why don't we parody

the world of high concept high design. This These companies that buy a fifty cent T shirt put their logo on it and then charge five dollars for it, like a company like Supreme, for example, and people love that. They love that, And what interests me about that is how it means that the purchasing of a lot of these items is no longer about the utility. It's about the ownership. It's about the status of owning the item rather than its utility. And I believe that applies very

much to my world. You thought we talk about these deluxe edition box sets that are coming out of left, right and center these days, and this seems like barely a week goes past now and there's not ten more deluxe edition box sets being announced. These are absolute utely, I think, for most people about ownership rather than utility. Most of the contents of these box sets you will never listen to more than once. But it's nice to have them. It's fun to have them. It's fun to

have the coffee table book. It's fun to have the CD of Demos, it's fun to have the CD of the Cleaned up board tape. It's fun to have the CD of the alternate mix, where the only difference is the backing vocals a bit further over to the left hand side of the stereo spectrum. Jimmy Page, I'm looking at you here with your led Zeppelin deluxe editions. It's kind of fun to have those things, but actually what you really need is the original album. That's all you

really need. Maybe a five point one makes if you're into that thing too. So it's fascinating to me this world where things have moved towards ownership rather than use, and so we're kind of riffing off that with the with these kind of what I call high concept, high designer products. A can of air for two hundred dollars, by the way, doesn't really exist. It's it's not what I'm trying to say. You know, when you casual lookwards say it's sold out, but in it should when you

click on there, there's like a laptop bag. Everything is exorbitantly praised, and that's when you realize it's a joke. It's a conceptual joke here, it's a conceptual gang. But you know, but the point is that a lot of these things are not completely ridiculous because there are I mean, they are ridiculous, But what I mean is they're not ridiculous in the sense there are companies out there that really are marketing things that are not a million miles

away from these things. You know, paying a thousand bucks for a pair of sneakers just because it's got a particular logo on it. This is the kind of world I'm talking about. And also the other thing that kind of span off from this was this idea of the sort of elitism of limited editions. So we did one edition of the album, which is a limited edition of one copy, and we put it on so and by the way, this is real. This is not something we

was a gag. This was real. We created myself and my designer created one a one edition, one sorry, one copy edition of one version of the album. That version of the album came in a big box which had a seven inch single with the song of which only

one copy was pressed. It had it had my Grammy certificate and Grammy Medal nomination, It had handwritten lyrics, basically had a load of really exclusive stuff of which there was only one thing, you know, one version of that, and we put it on self a ten thousand pounds with all the money going to the Music Venue Trust, and it's sold out within five minutes, sold up within five minutes. And I love that because it played it

kind of. Also, it's also playing on the idea of music selling music in the same way that art sells what it produces. So this idea that a painting or sculpture is produced in an addition of one and that one sells at a premium price. That's that's what basis

that the whole world of art is predicated on. You know, you create one original piece, you sell it for an exorbitant price, and then the person that buys it has the choice to either share it by putting in an art gallery, or they can hang it over their front room and Frank hang it over their fireplace in the front room, and no one ever else gets to see it. That's their prerogative. And I was fascinated by what would be And I know I'm not the only person to

do this. Woutan Clang did an album of one I think one copy a few years ago, which I think they sold from a million dollars. Uh, So I know this is not a completely original notion, but but it all kind of was riffing on this idea of elitism and snobbery and the idea of ownership rather than utility. Okay, a lot of people might be listening to this primarily for your remixes. Obviously we've talked about the new album, and you also said you have a lot of work.

If you wanted them to further explore your work, where else should they look? I mean in terms of your catalog, It's very hard to question to us, I've done so many different kinds of records, So I mean, without knowing what the sort of agenda, what the agenda of the person you know that you'd be asking on behalf of is in terms of what their tastes are, I couldn't say. I think The Future Bites is probably my face record

of all the records have ever made. Now. I know I say that every time I make a record, because I do say that every time I make a record. But there's something special about this record to me because it sounds completely like me, but it's completely a record of the now. It sounds like a record that could only have been made now. It's very contemporary sounding record. And I say that because I think a lot of my previous records have got more of a nostalgic element

to them. If people are really into progressive rock, they probably like my album Hand Cannot Erase, for example. If people are really into metal, they probably like those early Porcupine Tree Lava Atlantic records like Fear of a Blank Planet. And in absentia, if people like more eighties pop stylings, they might like my record to the Bone. So it's a hard question to answer without knowing the taste of

the post involved, but I would say definitely. The current record, The Future Bites, is a real landmark record for me, and it's a very accessible but no less sophisticated because of it record for him, A lot record, Okay, And since we live in this playlist world, one track where someone should start on the new album, Um, I really like this song called Man of the People, which I think is a beauty. It was in my head it was going to be Marvin Gay collaborating with Pink Floyd.

And I know that sounds rather lofty aspirations to have for someone like me who can't really sing anywhere near like Marvin Gay, but that was it was kind of in my head. I had this idea. I wanted to do it almost like this kind of soul ballad, but with the kind of production aesthetic of classic Floyd And when you listen to it, that's kind of what it sounds like, I think. And I'm really proud of that song. Man of the People is beautiful song. I would go

with Personal Shopper, but that's okay. You're the person who made the record, you know. I love the whole record. I'm so proud of everything. It's like trying to choose one of your you know, your favorite child. I love them all. I love Personal shop is great to Yeah, and I've loved talking to you. Know. It's funny until you actually connect someone, you have no idea what they're like. I had no idea. As I say, you were so

erudite and articulate. There are many people who are musicians who really can make it but not really talk about it. And I can see why you have this podcast, and I would love to argue with you about some of these records, but I think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known for today, so Steve and I want to thank you so much for doing this pleasure. I had a lot of fun Bob is great to talk about a lot of stuff that I don't normally get to talk about because I've been I'm on the

intervilled interview treadmill right now for the future. BIS and questions are always the same, so it's been great to have some different things to talk about. Thank you for that. It was great. I'll leave it at that until next time. This is Bob left sets