Steve Lillywhite

second thing. You are speaking to us from Jakarta, where you now live. Let's start, especially for the ignorant Americans. Where exactly is Jacarta? Where is Jacartia is? Jakarta is the capital city of Indonesia. Indonesia is the fourth largest country on the planet, with about fourth largest by population after China, America and India. It's about eight Muslim uh seven or eight percent Christian. The rest are sort of scattered between Hindus and Buddhists, and they've got a couple

of atheists, of which I am one of them. But the great thing about it is that that everyone lives in perfect harmony together, you know, and that's great because there's not many places on the planet where Christians and Muslims live in um, you know, in in UH next door to each other, and they're fine with it. So how did you end up in Jakara? I was living not very far from you, Bob, really in just off sunset in Hollywood, and and I was thinking, there's something

about my life here that I don't know. It was. I wanted some my my My thing has always been my enthusiasm for life. And I was I was living in l A and I you know, I just got a Latin Grammy for for my album with j one Is, and you know, things were okay, but I felt I wanted a new, um, a new challenge in life. So I was invited to go to Singapore to give a speech at UH Music Matters, which of course you're familiar with. And I was so excited. I thought, Southeast Asia, this

is going to be fair. The moment I got to Singapore, it was like, oh my god, this is like going to Disneyland. I mean, it was very nice and it was very clean, but where is the Where's the excitement of the of the East, you know? Um? Although I I got some great friends in Singapore, and I love it now actually, but I I then sort of went to China and went to to to career and and and these places. None of them really made me feel great.

And then a friend of mine said there's a band in Indonesia want an English record producer, and that I googled them. They were huge over here, and I came out and did some songs and and I just fell in love with the place. It's a it's got its own I mean, I mean for me, I I've learned so much about a whole different musical culture and that's really um And and he gave me a new lease of life. To be honest, I have a great lifestyle here. I now. I came over here as a music producer

and I now worked for KFC. Okay, before we get there. Deep the last time we spoke, you were playing the field and never anticipated getting married again, but reasonly you did get married. Tell me that story. Oh, it's so funny you you and I. I don't I don't mean to be disrespectful to any culture, and I believe it, you know. And as I say, I am not a believer in and afterlife or or any you know, I believe in a higher power than me. But my higher power than me is basically a group of us. You know.

I don't think there's anything outside, and that's quite a prevalent view in the West, but over here it's not. And and my and my girlfriend Um and her parents felt that it was sort of wrong that we were living together, and so so I said, okay, well we'll do a you know, I will convert, not that convert, because I'm not anything. So it doesn't matter if i'm either, you know, I'll do what anyone says if it makes them happy. So I did. I did acquire a Muslim name.

And apparently when you become a Muslim or acquire a Muslim name, you can choose any name you want. So guess what I chose, Bob, I am now in Muslim world. My name is Mohammed Ali. That is the fantastic denly quite a sense of humor there. Okay, how did you meet this woman who's now your wife? She is Um, just just mutual friends and and we got on grades and she's far too young for me, and it's perfectly acceptable over here, you know. But but but I've realized, Bob,

the difference between. You know, it's it's not age gap that that that makes problems. It's the fact that one of us is male and one of us is female. I mean, I think that's that's the main difference. It's nothing to do with how old you are, is to do with one is male and mine is female. But we got on great, We've got a great life. Her family are lovely and yeah, and at the moment, COVID is sort of bubbling here. But but but you know,

as I say, most of them are Muslims. If if anyone dies of COVID, they shrug their shoulders and say it's God's will and they bury people here within twenty four hours, which is the Muslim tradition. So there's not really any autopsies to see what they died of as well. So it's it's you know, but but but the good news is that people in Asia have been wearing masks for a long time, you know, so so that there

is no political divide over anything like that. You know, everyone deals with with mask wearing, everyone deals with you know, they're all the same. So I wouldn't think of leaving the house, and no one thinks of leaving their house without wearing a mask, and we all wash our hands, and we all get temperature tested if we go anywhere we go, you know, everywhere there's a guy with a little temperature thing to to take your temperature. About probably

three or four times a day. I get my temperature done. I get tested once a week for my job. U. So you know, it's all good. Okay. To what degree is there an expact community there? I well, when I came here six years ago, there was a fairly big expact community. It's shrunk a bit. And and to be honest, the oil business was huge even before I came, so I sort of got the end of that at But there isn't so much of an expact community. And that doesn't bother me because I'm not really I don't need

to be with ex pats, you know. I when I enter a culture, I love to to dive right in, you know. So I've learned the language to a certain extent, and I love the food. I love the music, you know,

because the music is my job. I put these CDs into into KFC and I sell you know, up to a million CDs every month, So I have to know what the what what the businesses in Indonesia, So so you know, there's not I have some expact friends obviously, but you know, because I don't drink alcohol, so I'm not one of those people who goes to the bar and get drunk. And you know, and and and the typical expact that you hear about in Bali and places

like that. Okay, how long has it been, if always that you don't drink to ety three years and nine months, I think, And what was your motivation to start one day at a time. And by doing it one day at a time, I've realized I couldn't get to twenty three years, so you know, it was relatively easy. And you know, I work, I produced the Rolling Stones, Bob. You know, I and I lived, and many people didn't live.

So I've you know, I understand the pitfalls and I I didn't get to a place where my life collapsed or anything, but I got to a place where I thought I crossed an invisible line, which was basically, it'll probably get me eventually. And when you come to that realization that your lifestyle will will will probably get you eventually, it sort of takes all the fun out of it. So I dealt with it in the way that so many people in our business deal with it, and I and I love it. You know, my life is a

lot more open now, you know. Um, you think you're free when you're living that sort of lifestyle, but actually you're much freer when you're not. Your life becomes a lot wider and a lot bigger. You're preaching to the converted. But in this particular case, the KFC thing is still going on. Explain from my audience the whole period. I just threw in KFC that. Okay, let me start. The KFC in Indonesia is a destination restaurant. It's um. It's because there's no pork and beef is is not really

that that that prevalent here. Chicken rules, and chicken here is not pumped full of full of chlorine. It's not washed in chlorine. It's not pumped full of um steroids and stuff to make it big. So they're really small, they're really tasty, and chicken here is great and KFC franchise has really become the thing here. People love KFC and honestly, I I love it here. It's it's exactly how you remember it as a kid, you know, when

you first heard it and it was great. But you now go and have KFC and it's like you walk in and it just smells stale of stale. You know, it's not good. Whereas here we have you know, there's coffee shops in the in a lot of the KFC s, they're very clean. Our flagship restaurants have stages where there's music. And basically I didn't start it but my um, but

my predecessor decided to start bundling c ds with chicken. Now, this started to take off and when record stores closed, it was the only place people could get their CDs. So it's become a sort of tradition when you go to KFC, people buy CDs. So it's a very prestigious thing to have your CD for sale at KFC because you know, I I say, pre COVID, I would my My biggest month sale was one point one million in a month post COVID. I'm at about five fifty, so

it's it's but it's improving again. And I have ten well, I have eight c d s now at any one time, and two DVDs because I felt that I can give a you know, I do a DVD for kids and a DVD for family, um and and you know it's it's nothing to do with my taste. Producing was always to do with my taste. That was how I became a producer, because you know, it was all too I would never do anything for money. I did it because whether I liked it or not. But you know, now

I'm I'm getting older. I have other people who helped me, but it's not my taste. I choose things for all the family, you know. I I put a CD in for the teenage girls because you know, they always love these these these soppy you know, and it's great fun. And I've got this, you know. And I'm enthusiastic about my job, and being enthusiastic about what you do in life may exit so much more exciting. And and you know,

I've I've I've always been lucky. I've never had a job because the definition of a job is you can complain about your job. That's one of the things about having a job. What I've always had is a vocation. Now, a vocation is great, but you're never allowed to complain about it because you would not be as as enthusia you would not be true to that that that young seventeen year old boy who walked into a recording studio

full of wonder. I think the sense of wonder is something that used to abound in the music business, and that sense of wonder is something that now, you know, you don't see that with the young artists. It that there's the sense of innocence and wonder. You you know, homogenization is a great thing, but maybe not for truly great creative people. Okay, let's flow down for a minute. You're so CD s a KFC. A lot of questions. First, can you buy a CD at a place other than KFC,

not the CDs I sell. The CDs I sell. We have a we have an exclusive deal with our artists and they come in and we we asked them to do certain not promotional things for for KFC, but we asked them to to to do some store visits. Uh and the you know, there's no branding involved. It's not like they sell our CDs and they have to hold KFC and say I love it. I mean, to be honest, most of them do really love KFC, so they feel

they don't mind going to a store. But the idea is go to the store, do a little meet and greet with some fans speak to the staff. Get you know, it's to keep the staff. You know, take a couple of photos with the staff. So the staff two things keeps them happy and it and it's um and it makes themselves the seat, you know, it makes them want to sell the CD more. And it's it's all around the glimp thing. Okay, what is the company you work for? What's the name of that? Well, my my company is

called jms R Jagonian Music and Sport Indonesia. But it doesn't really matter. It's just a it's a shell, you know, it's a it's a part of KFC Indonesia. But you know, my my boss owns all the franchises of KFC UM and KFC and and unlike other big worldwide corporations like Disney have such you know, you cannot do certain things worldwide with Disney. With KFC, they've been very good because they've allowed my my boss and his team to to to tweak the the KFC the product for the Indonesian market.

So most people eat KFC with rice. Um. They they love spicy food here, oh my god. Everything you know, they the chili is is so they do the spicy KFC, so you know, and that's what I like. Uh, and they're always doing you know. But I'm not here too to promote KFC in general. But I would say, if anyone does visit Indonesia, it's a trip to KFC is it's not as outrageous as a trip you know, it's not as weird as a trip to KFC in the West.

And in fact, just very quickly, a friend of mine heard about this when I was in New York working on the last U two album. He said to me, Steve, do you think he was a journalist? He said, Can I pitch your story to the New York Times? I said, yeah, but I don't think they he said, oh my god, they're dying to do this. So I was actually on the front cover of the New York Times Arts section at the weekend, holding a bucket of KFC and you know,

telling my story about what I do. Now KFC, big worldwide corporate is called the Young Organization and believe it or not, and you know, they have never been on the front page of the New York Times in their life. So all of a sudden they got like this, Q dos that you know? Um, so so they are very proud of of the Indonesian KFC on on the worldwide basis. Okay, a few questions in terms of landscape of music, KFC has what percentage of the overall market or how many competies?

Well pretty much ninety. Well that since KFC did it, other chicken outlets have done it. Their California Chicken Company and is one and there's one other one but there, I mean, we have six hundreds at six hundred and fifty outlets. They only have about two or three hundred, and they they don't, you know, they're kept there. They're fried. Chicken is like a level below ours, you know. So

it's it's it's more like American case. So we have Okay, So what you're saying essentially is there are no record stories. Everybody buys their music and a a chicken store, yes or they yeah, it's I mean a lot of people what YouTube and stuff. So my job is becoming harder and harder. And what I do is, you know, I'm trying to and to be honest, I'm selling them something that they can get on YouTube for nothing, you know. So so I'm forever trying to think of new ways to bundle

it all together. Like compilations of styles of music, and you know, because playlist mentality is is happening more and more, even if you don't subscribe to any streaming service. The idea of the album is I once wrote to you, Bob, and you ignored it. But I actually in the West Side, I read it. I get replied everything because I know, no, no, don't. He was slightly flippant, which is no, you always do.

You know, you're you're very good to me. But I actually had this, this this idea that the only thing that will save the album in the West is the legalization of marijuana, because you know, you know, when you were fourteen or fifteen and you had your first joint and you listen to Dark Side of the Moon, there was a whole new thing happening, all right, And I think, maybe, if, if, that's the only possible thing that will save the album is the legalization, But I don't think it probably will

because the technology has no need for albums, and technology will always lead the art form. Okay, what is the price of v CDs? You said they are They're priced at a point where Indonesia, you know, people here are very poor, so they're like five bucks each okay, and to what But it doesn't. Doesn't everybody have a morbile phone. That's why my job is getting more and more difficult.

But yes they do, but they have cars and they and and well they do, but it's more the a lot of people have have well, yes they have a mobile phone. What you're talking about, Bob left sets is a smartphone because a mobile phone will not play music. A smartphone is the one that plays music. And yes, a lot of people have smartphones. But but but the problem is is the broadband. There's not much broadband and there's no five G or uh. You know a lot

of the rural areas don't have very good reception. So you know, it will all change in the future. And Spotify numbers are going up here. But you know, I'm I'm getting to the point where I mean, I'm I'm enjoying my job, but it's not gonna last forever. So I'm I'm you know, and okay, let's just assume it ends somewhere in the next five years based on your need for excitement. Will you then continue to work or will you get into lifestyle sale under the sunset? Now,

i I've actually just invested in a house. I've just bought a house in Bali, so I I shall, I shall probably move to Balley. But you know, I'm also writing a book and I do a sort of U and I've written my own life story in a stand up form and actually it's with music and I've you know, it's two It's a two hour show with a with a gap, with a break at at one hour, and it it goes. You know, it's just a lot of

self effacing stories and I play music. I've got about twenty segments of music where I paid little bits of songs. I tell funny stories, I tell sad stories. Um. And I had this all done. I did one show in Jakarta, which was fantastic, and then I my plan was to take it around locally Asia, Southeast Asia and then go around the odd with it doing my show and because a lot of people when they heard about it said oh I come to see that, you know, and then COVID hit So everything is. It was about a year

ago in February that I did my first show. Um, and I've still got the script, you know, I've got it all ready to go and it's okay, this beg this begs a question. You've made your rep on the other side of the glass, Yes, sir, So did you always want to be a performer, your reluctant performer. Did

the light bulb just go off? No? I never wanted to be a performer, and I never even wanted to be a teacher, because I I always, um, I always subscribed to the idea that those who can't teach, you know, and and in fact, actually my kids school in New York there, their teachers at the school had a band and they actually called the name of the band those who Can't, which is which is a great name for a band, right, especially if you are all teachers. They

called it those who Came. But I've subsequently come to the conclusion that that if people like me who actually um who who who have been both old school and modern recording techniques, you know, I have something I can give back to young people. Uh, And so I I quite And also my story is it's quite funny. I mean, look, you know you went to see the Jeff Emmerick. You know, it was very good, but it was all a little worthy. You know. Yeah, he was he he was fantastic, but

you know, and and his work speaks for itself. But but I'm you know, I'm one of those produced. There are a lot of brilliant producers in the world. But I'm a people person and I think, um, you know, I'm I'm pretty good at speaking and and I enjoy it and that's the sort of thing that gives me more excitement at the moment. So okay, yeah, we'll have to wait for covid M. Let's go back to the beginning.

What kind of circumstances did you grow up? In? White, middle class um post war possibly the greatest example of socialized life the planet has ever seen. Um, you know, I mean everything. You know, it was socialism in the greatest way. It was. The BBC is an institution that I will defend forever because it has it has been impartial through various different governments. Musically, it was completely um. You could not bribe anyone at the BBC to get your song on the radio, you know. So we got

the best of what America had to offer. You know, I we got the best American music. Now it sounds like I'm being snobby. How do you do find the best? I never ever heard Kansas, you know, I had funny Okay, let's go back to what did your parents do for a living? Oh, my god, My my dad was an accountant. My mom was a housewife. You know how many how many kids in the film? Oh, there's three of us. I'm the eldest. Never had any chance. I never finished

high school, let alone go to college. I I managed to get a job in a recording studio at the age of seventeen as a tea boy and U and even then I wasn't there was no you know, I was just one of those people that punk rock was my was my entry point, really, you know, because it's you know, to be a producer. It's like a catch twenty two situation. You know, you need the work to get the hit. But the only way you get the hit if you have the work. So you know what

comes for the hit or the work, you know. And and I was lucky that there was this sort of wave called punk rock. And we don't get waves of music, you know, as you've always said, it doesn't mean so much anymore. And when it doesn't mean so much, you don't get waves. Um. But punk rock was a wave in the UK and on the eastern West coast of America. It was only when Green Day came many years later,

that that punk thing actually traversed to Middle America. Funnily enough, the sex pistols in the clash never meant anything in Middle America. Um, but I wrote this wave. And I always used to say, what better than having bands who couldn't play than having a producer who couldn't produce? And so that was my that was my thing. And of course I got a hit record. And once I had a hit record, um in a September nine band called Susie and the Banshees with a song called Hong Kong Garden. Um,

it was like, oh my god, I've got a hit. Now. You can look at your life in two ways. Once you have a hit. You can either go, aren't I brilliant? I can turn turns into gold? Or what I did? It was like, oh my god, I've had a hit. I can just work with really good people. That's how I looked at it. You know. So because I was a fanboy, you know, so I and you know, when you're very young, you have many many people you were saying,

oh what boy a fan boy. I was just loved music, and I was very opinionated, and I and nowadays, when I ever I talked to young people and I'm either interviewing someone for a job or you know, I can learn a lot from them. If I say, you know, what sort of music do you like? And if a young person says, I like all sorts, no good? You

know you shouldn't like all sorts of music. You should be opinionated when you're young, because when you get older, you you start to understand that everything has a value. But when you're young, that that that that narrow minded focus. You know, you're like a boxer going into the ring. You know, you you're focused on your career. And that's what I was. So I I just you know, I thought, what God EXTC I love extec, I'll go and produce them. And you know, I wanted to work with the creative,

talented people. I had no ego that said I wanted to turn your rubbish act into a great act. So you know, every time I, you know, I had a hit, I would be offered all these bands who sounded like the band that I produced. You know, I've got nothing

against a flock of seagulls. But just because I produced you two doesn't mean I should have produced the alarm or a flock of seagulls, you know, and I love them both, but it's just like, why so I used my success with one artist to expand, which is why, you know, at the height of that sort of era in n I went off and produced Joan Arma Trading and Peter Gabriel, which had nothing to do with punk rock, you know, but it was like, Okay, I've had success,

these are creative, great artists, are going to work with them. Okay, you're talking about being opinionated. Needles to say, I am opinionated, and especially now and you're old, okay, but now more than ever, people don't like opinionated people. So when you were growing up, were you remember the group or people either love you or hear you? What was it like? No, you're you're, you're you're You're supposed to be opinionated when

you're young, you know, you're you know. I would never let guitarists bend notes because that was not you know, that was from that era before us. That was from the sort of you know, even though I produced Peter Gabriel that was sort of Genesis and all those the Eagles they all did, you know, it was long boring guitar solos. It was not what we wanted, short, sharp, angry songs, you know, And of course that's dismissing everything that Dave Gilmour ever did by saying, don't bend notes. Now.

Of course I love all sorts of things like that, so you know, um, and actually no, I'm not as a pinion. You know you are, and you're very but you are more the exception, Bob, because I think I hated the Eagles growing up, I hated the Eagles. Now I actually have Hotel California on a playlist. I listened to it for fun. You know, who would have thought, okay, why and how did you get a gig as a tea boy For those people don't know that essentially the

lowest below you low even a second engineer. And sometimes what drove that I drove that fear. Fear has been my driving force throughout my career. Fear has been the thing that has has has kept me not complacent. Fear has been the thing that uh enables me to do to overachieve, because I know if I don't overachieve, my natural talents will only enable me to flip burgers at McDonald's. I mean seriously, because I know I didn't go to college.

I didn't even finish high school. I didn't, you know, so when I got that job in a recording studio, it was like my, my, my. It was fear joined with wonder. You know. It's that wonder of of of the of of what it was, the thing that you would do. And I still have that, you know, those moments and this doesn't happen so much anymore because you know, records are made by committee, records are made one person at a time. You know, it's just and the reason

for that is is technology. Because technology enables you to do that. So and I've said this before and I always say this technology will always lead the art form. The people who make the technology they don't know how the artists are going to use it, because artists take the technology and they abuse it. That's how it should be. You know, That's how distortion came about. You know, distortion didn't come about from the from the from the people

who invented amts. It came about through people turning it up to loud. Okay, but why did you get a job. What was your motivation to work in a recording studio to begin with, because I didn't want to fucking flip Burgers. I talked to you, did you have that incredible sense of wonder about music? Always? When I was a bass player from the age of twelve, I I, um, you know, I was a musician and I loved playing the bass.

And then when I got the job in the studio, my bass playing became less and less and and now I don't even own a basse, which is a bity because I do love just that love just sitting there playing it. You know, do you do you have natural music ability? I mean, I know after the Beatles, everybody I knew bought a guitar, but it was clear who could do it. I mean the story I always tell I was playing with a friend who is now we're going to change keys, and I said, I'm out. Okay,

So do you have natural ability at music? Yeah? I think I do. I think I do, but but so many people do. I have a great analogy about about about the way the music businesses. Now. You know, there's because there are the gatekeepers are I mean, you can argue there's no official gatekeepers anymore. You know, the gatekeeper is just and an artificial algorithm based on people, you know. But the way I've always looked at it, I've I've I've looked at it. It's like the you know, the

New York Marathon. You know, there's forty people running, and I would never stop those forty people running. You know, they doing it for fun, right, that's the music business. Everyone's running for fun. There are on a fun run. I would never stop them. But the ones I'm interested in are those five Ethiopians at the front. Those are the ones I really because they want to win. Those are the ones I want to help with their career.

And that's how I see. You know, my job is to is to always recognize those five Ethiopians at the front. You get the analogy, don't you. Boy? Of course, how good an engineer are you? I was never a great engineer. I was. I was a taypop. But you know, my instincts were always just too but maybe not being taught, not being a very good learner or a slow learner. I tended to to only learn the things that I needed,

and I think that's probably a good thing. And I've a lot of people who are very clever, they don't they learn everything. And I could never learn everything. I just had this I had this thing where I I was just clever enough to learn the things that I needed to learn, even though I didn't know what they were at the time. It was just a natural thing, you know. So how did you decide you were going to be a producer? What what pushed you internally other

than fear. Well, my my my recording studio. My boss allowed us at weekends to take in if the studio was empty, we could take in our own projects, you know, and just to go and learn how to become a better engineer. So the first project I took into the studio was was a new wave band who were called Ultravox. Now this was the Ultravox, the first version of Ultravox, who had a different singer actually and a guy called John Fox. They were much more like Punky Roxy music.

And and I did their demos in the studio and it was through those demos that they got a record deal and and uh, and that's how I got my first ever production, you know. Okay, so when the world opened after Susie, uh, the next record was what Well, So Susie came about through Johnny Thunders actually from the New York Dolls. I produced his album, which a lot of people still like, but that wasn't a hit, So Susie was the first hit. Then I did UM, I did XTC, I did a bank called the Members, I did.

I did a lot of punk rock in those days, and oh well, I didn't do I seem to remember that by the time I got the call for you too, I'd already I was already a name for sure. I mean, I was you two second well good needles to say you could close anybody in a meeting. But for yourself at that time, why you were you? What skill were you bringing into the studio that major projects for success? Well, as I say it was it was my enthusiasm, it

was my being. Okay. I remember the first time I ever saw my name in in in uh In in the Enemy, I think it was or melody Maker. I was called omnipotent, and I thought this was fucking great. And then I looked it up and I realized it wasn't actually that that great word, but I didn't know what it meant. Um. Basically, I would go to the

Marquee Club, I would go to all these gigs. I was around town looking at these bands, and even though you know, not all my records were hit, but but you know the Johnny Thunders album and the Ultravox album, and the and and the Susie and the Banshees album, and then the Members and XTC and there were more. There were more. I'll have to okay with I'll be

I'm not. I don't need an exhaustive list. But when you went into the studio, needless to say, can't some come with the songs written, Some can play their instruments, some do not. So what was your skill in taking the raw talent of the performer and ending up with a recording? My skill, I will instincts I I and I like to think that when I I've always said there are two sorts of producers. Let's let's just take I'll say let's say, well, I won't say you too,

I'll say Dave Matthews Man, for instance. You know this came way way further down the line, But there's two sorts of producers. One will look at Dave Matthews Man. They'll see Dave Matthews He's the guy. He's like, obviously the main guy. I'll go and and work on him. I'll work that he you know, I'll make sure he me and him have this this this thing. I'm the other sort of producer. I look at the band and I go, Okay, where are the wheat links. Where's the

person who's not feeling that confidence. I'll go and talk to them, because I know that the Dave or the or the Bonno or whoever will always you know, they don't need to ingratiate myself with them. They have the ego, they're fine. But maybe that bass player, he's quiet. He's the one that the rest of the band are slightly mocking or something like. You know, Mike my I've become

so good at this, Bob. I can almost tell who plays what instrument in a band just by meeting them, because I see this sort of you know, I love the village. I love the the infrastructure of of of a of a working of a working organism, you know I I see it not as a Okay, So you find the weak link and you work with them. How other than they're one particular skill, How does that trans

lead to the others and make the project better? Well, they don't need the others don't need well, because you are only as strong as your weakest linked right, So if I work on the weakest linked, then the whole thing will become better. Um, and you know one thing I didn't. It's just common sense, you know, for me. And this sounds fucking stupid to say, but a lot of people don't think of this, is that a record has to get better the longer time you work on it.

And that sounds stupid, well, of course, but so many people their records go off courts. You know how many people have you met After the first week they go, oh, Bob, the album sounding great. We want a great drum sound. And then after two months they're they're saying, Bob, something's gone wrong. They're pulling their head, they're pulling their hair out. And you know, my job as the producer is to

see that and to realize when that's happening. You know, it's your I always say, it's like I'm the I'm the captain of the ship. My job is to steer that ship safely to port. Now, the Titanic was a fucking great ship, but look what came to that. Let's assume they come into the sort with a song. Might you say, need another verse, change a lyric? Would you go into those specific creative elpments. But of course I would. But I go back to what I said earlier. I

wanted to work with the best people. You know, I'm not a Svengali. Well, i am in my own way, but I'm not this, you know, it's it's not for me. I'm not like a film director. A film director is dictatorial, you know. A record producer is all about collaboration. And if I feel when I meet them and see them live, that there's enough wiggle room between the creative and me. You know, I'm not the sort of producer who who is proud to say I had to fire the drummer. Who the funk am I to say I had to

fire the drummer that band? Maybe the drummer his job was not just the drumming. His job was to tell the singer your ship write better lyrics. You know, did R. E. M Ever have a hit record after Bill Berry left? No? They had the best drummers in the fucking world, but they never had a Yet. There's a reason why the greatest musician is not always the best, because it's the infrastructure of the band and what their job is. And who am I to say, you know, fire the drummer.

You know, it's that's that's my punk ethic. Still, would you ever bring in ringers? Would you ever bring in studio players to play parts? And maybe the part of you know, completely of one of the band members, Na Mick Jagger brought in Anton fig to play the bass drums, because I mean, Charlie Wats is fantastic and his and

his and his snare drum is always great. But but but this was in the days where you you know, there was no sampling or anything, so we literally brought in a bass drum to um to to to to replace the bass drum. But you know, his foot was sometimes not so good. But in general, no, I would you know, I have the patience of a saint. I mean I will sit with someone for hours and hours and hours to get the performance, and I will train them and I will make sure that they can do it.

So before I enter a project, I would make sure that I can get an acceptable performance out of this musician. You know, so replacing a member of the band has so many unforeseen consequences. You know, you are not you're destroying the weakest link. You are not building the weakest link on left sets, Okay, do you have a preference and what's the difference between working with a solo act and a band. Well, my history just speaks itself. I'm

I've had many more. I'll veer towards bands much more because for me, a band has this thing that that you know, I mean. But even when I work with with solo artists, I like to make, you know, a band idea. I like to I like to to make it seem like a band, you know, because that that that's But that's in the days of working with musicians who interact with each other. Now people don't do that. Is it's just a different world. I'm not I'm not

saying the world was better before or worse. You know, I'm not a ludder when it comes to that, because technology will always lead the artful. Okay, so you say you were driven by fear at the beginning. You've worked with literally the biggest acts in the world. They don't get any bigger. Do you have any fear you're meeting anybody now? And would you still have anxiety and fear making a record with anybody? Or have you've done so much success, so much confidence of the anxiety and fear

of disappeared. No, no, no, I still have the fear. I'm not really making records at the moment. I mean, I've sort of retired without even knowing it, weirdly, you know, I haven't been into the student, you know. I don't. I don't want to be one of those jobbing producers, you know. I I there's other things in life to do than you know. And I've done it for forty years. And as I say, my enthusiasm coupled with my fear. That's I mean, it's it's this sort of balance between

fear and enthusiasm. Um, and as my fear has slightly gone, so is my enthusiasm. When I and I moved to Indonesia and and my you know, it's just a whole new set of music to learn, you know. And I know all about their local styles of music. I know they're their stars. I know that gossip. You know. I'm completely you know, I love it. It's it's a whole new thing for me. But but but yeah, fear, fear is something, but yeah, and my enthusiasm is Okay, let's

go to some of these famous records. How did you get the job with Peter Gabriel and What was it

like recording that record? Oh, well, Peter Gabriel was That was the first time I had been I mean, it was so left field that when I got the core from his manager, I actually thought it was one of my friends, um telling me, uh to, you know, making a joke, you know, because Peter Gabriel was definitely from the the the era that we were all um rebelling against, you know, because you know he came for you know, he wore a horse's head and you know, it's like

Genesis were considered that the hippiest, dippiest, you know, boarding school type type music, you know. But but then I realized it wasn't someone phoning me up for a joke. So I had the meeting with Peter, and when we talked, it was like, wow, he sounds like he was you know, he was into the sort of records that I've made, um he And there was one thing that he said

that really got me. He said, Steve, I want to make an album without any symbols, you know, and and because of the sorts of person I am and my enthusiasm. I mean, there's some producers who would go that's ridiculous. You can't make a run record without symbols, you know. But for me I and I see a problem and

see that as a challenge, you know. So it was like my enthusiasm clicked in immediately and I thought, Wow, no symbols, that means I can do this, I can do that, and I can you know, And and that got me enthusiastic, the fact that he wanted to do

things that were not like normal, you know. So even though that album was you know, when you listen to it now, it sounds like one of the darkest you know, it's songs about being in the mental hospital and you know, very very worthy songs about Steve Beaco, which I thought was about Phil Silver's by the way, umkay, you know I wondered. Okay, but let's let's stop for a second. When you work with Peter Gabriel, not only did he

have experience, he's opinionated himself. So when you work with somebody like cam Or Jagger and Richard et cetera, do you your roles shrink or does it stay the same? Oh? No, I am you know you have to be if you've worked with so many different look. I have read interviews with my contemporaries who have so many set rules it absolutely astounds me. I have no rules. I mean, my job is the captain of the shape. As I said, it's you know, I mold myself off to what the

artist wants. Keith Richards wanted to start work at midnight, one o'clock in the morning. That's what time we came to the studio. I mold myself around what the artists needs, and my my job is to work out how to get the best record within the parameters of what they you know. And also they must love their album. I mean, you know, they must. They at the end of the day, they must. It's their arts and they always you know,

my artists always think of it as art. You know, they're artists, so they have to love the end results. And my job is to help them realize their vision. You know. As I say, I'm the worst producer. If someone says to me, Steve, I'll do whatever you want, I don't want that. I want someone to come up to me and say, Steve, I've got these ten ideas. I say, Okay, give me the ten ideas. Take a

bit of that, take a bit of that. That one there that's great, but expanded, do this and then you know, um and uh yeah, that's that's that's how I do it. I need you know, I I can help grow the seed. I am not the seed. You know my job. Let's let's go back to Gabriel fan. I was not a big Genesis fan before that. There were so many prog rock bands, couldn't be into all of them. But I certainly was involved from the beginning of the solo career

as a fan. Uh you know. I worked with Ezrin, then he worked with what's his name from King Grim's and Fripp, then he worked with you a couple of things. Hey, how did you feel did you think you should have been hired for the next record. Secondly, don't forget I have an American perspective. In America, the buzz on his solo career was not high. Two albums that come out Atlantic dropped him, came on Mercury, which is the worst label. However, and I know all the records. I firm he believed

that is his best work. So when the record came out and it didn't immediately shoot to success, did that did you know how good it was? And how did you feel that he moved on from you? We loved making that album. I mean we it was in a way we had this, especially as Colodna used to come to the studio and because Colodna signed him to Atlantic and eventually dropped him and then re signed him to Geffen, as you know the story. But but but you know, uh,

I mean, you know, we we we were. He used to come over from l A. And when when we knew he was coming, we would turn the air conditioning up so so high in the studio that it was fucking freezing just about ten minutes before he came into the studio. So when he came in, you could see him flinch because he was like Mr. California guy, and it was so cold, and but we pretended that it

wasn't that cold. So we sat him down and played him the songs and we were freezing, but we wouldn't say it because we wanted that, you know, and it wasn't and it was childish, you know, but but we wanted our thing, you know. And Peter was fearless, you know, it was like, you know, he wanted it to be different and m and we knew we had something good there. But but but but it came out of joy, even though as I say the album is very dark. Um and I no, I never thought about working with him again.

In those days, there was you know, there were so many records, and I never thought it was my job to stay with an artist forever. You know, you can, you know, you can argue that the George Martin model. But I liked the idea In those days. I used to think that I can work with so many different artists. It's why shouldn't you you know. I had sort of idea with you too. I I after every single album of theirs, I said no, I don't want to do the next one, and they said, okay, but can you

do the next one? I went all right then, Literally I gave them an out after every time I worked with them, and they always asked me back for the first three. Um. But but no. With with Peter, it was yeah, it was that that air conditioning. That's a

true story. We used to do it just for fun, really, because we wanted because you know, Colodner's idea of the best record in the world was the one that sold the most, you know, I mean that was literally his way of thinking, and and we tended to disagree with that. Graciously we disagree with that, Mr Colodna, the best record in the world is not the one that sells the most. Now I can understand what he was talking about, but I as it was such a a a a an idea that he that he when he said that, it

was like, how can you say that? It was so against what we were doing for us? You know that's that that you know we immediate I immediately lost any respect for him. Okay, how did you en they're poking up with you two? With you two? They that there was you remember Factory Records. Factory Records. Tony Wilson was a good friend of our What a lovely man, What a lovely lovely literally the most educated man in the music business. You would walk through me and Chester he

would point stuff out. It's like unbelievable. I would just be quiet. He was a fan of information, Yeah he was. He was brilliant. And of course he had Factory Records, which had Joy Division. Now Joy Division had a producer called Martin Hannett and Martin Hanne. He was all parts of Joy. He was almost like a fifth member of Joy Division. He he was their sound. He put them all to He was a bit older than them. Obviously, and so you two when they were looking for their

first producer, they chose Martin Hannett. And you know in those days when you and and Martin Hannet went and recorded one single with them and they loved it, song called the eleven o'clock TikTok, and they asked him to produce the album. Well, what happened was that Ian Curtis from Joy Division committed suicide and Martin Hannitt um decided it really affected him in a bad way. And and you know, because he was like really close close to Joy Division, and so he said to YouTube that he

couldn't produce their album. So you two then went back to their list of producers. A number two on the list was Steve lily White. So I got this is a funny story. I got flown to the West coast of Ireland to see a gig and I was told I would be met by a Mr McGinnis. Now in those days, in those days, if you are if you in you're met by a Mr McGinnis at Cork airport. I was really expecting a guy on a tractor with

with straw out of his ears. You know, get to the airport, come off, Hello, Steve, Paul McGinnis here as you know him, right, And I, oh, hope Paul, and come with me. So we got in his car and we drove forty minutes to the gig, during which point he started to play the worst sounding demos I had ever heard. I mean, honestly, they were just so embarrassing. But for him, he was in salesman mode. You know, Paul McGinnis is a fantastic salesman. And he never once

came to the student. He never gave an opinion on his artist's art because for him, why would he question his artists art if he was their manager. They do the art, he does the business, you know very much. He was that sort of a manager who I as a producer I love because he never questioned what we were doing in the studio. So anyway, he was like selling me on this terrible sounding demo in the car on his terrible shitty car speakers, you know, and I

was my heart was starting to sink um. And then we we we got to the gig and it was in a in a in a school hall, and literally all the boys were on one side and all the girls were on the other side, and and I'm and I'm I'm standing in the middle, and I have only twenty three years old, but I feel old, you know. Um. So the band came on straightaway into I Will Follow, and I went, oh great, you know. So then it

was a good gig. And there was something, you know, like everyone in those days, was that there's something about this band, you know, So we went to meet them stage afterwards. They had the personalities of teenage boys, which is basically mumbling, you know, but when they were on stage, they were not. You know that Borrow very much became out of his body, you know, he he um, he would. He's very able to get to a place that other people get to only with drugs, you know, that that thing.

I mean, you know, drugs can get you to a very creative place. But I mean, I'm sober. I told you twenty three years I only got my Grammars after I got sober, and so you can be creative without that. But some people but but it's all but it's more difficult, you know. You can, you can to get to that place and and and Bono manages to get to that

place without without external stimulation. And I think that maybe faith, you know, it may maybe a god belief that that that gives him that ability to just because he's the most cat handed person, you know. He's like, he's famously a bad a bad driver. Everyone says, don't get in a car with borrow, you know. But but he's like a ballet dancer on stage. But he's the most clumsy person you'll ever meet outside, you know, So he has this ability to just just become this uh, this swan

when he's on stage. Now, living in Los Angeles, we had k Rock, which immediately when and I will follow. I certainly bought the album for a long time until our two baby. I was convinced it was the best one. Did you know what you had after making Boy? No?

And you know what, they didn't either. No one really knew it's only and it was funny twenty year anniversary of Boy and and it was remastered and the band had to listen to the remastering and and and I think they've never heard the album obviously you don't, you know you you live, but they had to check the remastering.

And I got a phone call from Bono's Steve our debut album, it's fucking great, you know, And I went well, yeah, thank you Bow, you know, because he didn't know, and he listened to all the production values and all the like weird little things that I did, and you know, and and for him it was like just you know, fantastic. And he actually went out and really gave you know, he truly believed it was a great album. Only on the twentieth anniversary, but he did say to me, Steve,

it's really great. But there is one thing I don't like. I said, what's that? Mosis? I don't like the singer good Now, the Edge is famous for creating sounds with effects in the studio. How much time did you spend getting those sounds? Oh? Well, you know, Edge Edges famous for spending of his time getting the sound and one percent of the time recording it. You know, I mean that's his thing. I mean Edges a sonic. Uh. You know.

Edge is the scientist of the band. He's the one he wears a white coat with with with pains in his top pocket and and and his slow and methodical and and and that's him. He's never perturbed. You know, very rarely does Edge get incredibly enthusiastic, And very rarely does he get incredibly down. He is the steady turtle, you know. He he's slow but steady. Botto is the fucking headless chicken, you know. As you know, Okay, you've had those guys right, you made these three record it,

then they move on with you know. But it's kind of like Godfather three. They always pull you in. What's that about? And it seems like every recordgend to working out anyway. It's it's true. And and this is thanks to Mr McGinnis, who is very very very black and white in his thinking. Because it was on the Joshua Tree. I didn't do anything on Unforgettable Fire, you know, but but when the Joshua Tree was being made, they basically, um,

they're they're they're eighteen months into the album. They've they've you know, and they had a meeting with Paul and so so legend has it. Paul said, look, you know, you're a big band, but we've got everyone on salary. We need to get out. We need to finish this album because we can't keep recording forever. And and he said when you you know, and he said, when you were recorded with Steve, you made records in like three months maximum, you know. By war took about three months.

I think boy took six weeks October two months, and he said, why don't you get Steven maybe he can he can help finish off the album. So the band went, okay, great, so they invited me back and um and basically they were they were. They gave me the songs that they felt were the most For some reason, with them, I had this sort of reputation as the guy who would do the singles, you know, I was the guy. And it wasn't just mixing it says mixed by but that

that is not much. It's much more like a relay race, you know, a YouTube. And now many people make records this way, funnily enough, but this was probably the first relay race that that um that in recording it. So basically, but Brian you know, and Danny Lanoir said to me they were they were burnt out on where the streets

have no name. So they basically handed the baton to me and my job was to just carry on the production while they went and worked on One Tree Hill and some you know, some of the more obscure songs on site too, which still had to be finished, you know. But but I was like the guy I was ready dare I've always thought that that was my um my job with you two, okay, but what it like working on tracks that you didn't cut, that aren't finished and

it was fine? You know. It's like I'm as I say, I'm there's no rules in my book, you know, because I'm never confident enough to to to to have any specific definite as to what I do. I mean, I had this drum sound, you know, in the early eighties, and I used to pretty much try and do this drum sound on all my records until I did an album with Marshall Crenshaw and I did that drum sound and completely fucking in the album, you know. So so I realized that that's not a rule, you know. So

I don't have any rules about anything. I just I use something in the back of my you know. I mean, there's a faith I have, you know, even though I have no God God belief, I have a faith in humans and that if me and people get together, we can make something greater than what they can make on their own or what I can make on my own.

Just some magic that that that we can come up with. Okay, tell us about the drum sound that that's just a load of you know, it's well with you two, And I'm very proud of this fact that that that Ireland had made rock stars before you too, you know thin Lizzie boomtown Rats, Rory Gallagher and Taste, you know, some very good artists, but they'd all had to they'd all gone to London to make their records. No one had made a rock album in um, in Dublin or in Ireland.

And you two wanted to do their first album in Ireland. And and I remember walking into Windmill Lane Studios and in the actual studio area it was made for recording Irish folk music. It was very dead sounding um you know, so if you clip your hands it would you don't hear any echo. There was nothing. It was like not exciting sound and it's shit, I'm not going to get

a great sound out of this. But actually when you walk through reception to get into the studio, there was this big area where the receptionists sat with the uh you know, there's no mobile phone so if you wanted to get and there was also winbill Lane was not just a recording studio, it was a video editing thing. There was three floors. The studio was in the in the ground floor, in the basement, so she sat there and the phone calls would come in and she would

direct it off to different departments. You know, you remember the states right when when um so and I clapped my hands out there and it sounded like they had these stolen things on the on the waters handed great and I said, oh, so I got the studio manager. I said, look, I'd like to record the drums out here, please, and he looked at me like I was smoking crack and he said, no, this is where the all right, Steve, this is where the you know, tried to bad Irish accent.

I'm sorry, this is where the receptionists. I said, well, what time did she go home? And he said, well, she goes home at six o'clock. I said, okay, well we'll set the drums up after six o'clock, at which point I got into trouble with Larry Mullins dad, because Larry was only seventeen and his dad used to come and collect him from the studio every day, so I had,

you know, I had to placate his dad. And but we set the drums up outside and they sounded fantastic and and I and I'm very proud that I made this this sort of you know, punk It was sort of punk psychedelic tyme album. But but even then, you know that the Clever Money was not on YouTube. The Clever Money was on Julian Cope with Teardrop explodes. The Clever Money was on Echo and the money Men. You know,

no one really put their money on YouTube. But you know, a mixture of of of dedication, a mixture of of mcguinness's vision of seeing the world rather than seeing the front cover of Enemy. I think, you know, to be honest, a lot of these artists once they got you know, for instance, Echo on the Money Men especially, you know, once a one once u their singer had been on the front cover of The Enemy, It's like, hey, I'm

the biggest star in the world. You know. It's that, It's that mentality you two have, that sort of you know again had the fear of it. I think they had fear as well, you know, fear is it? Is it great driving force? Is there any you two album, whether the Unforgettable Fire that you didn't work on. I didn't work on Pop, I didn't work on one of the songs of something or other, They all they will mix up to me, Roy Roy, Roy Ray, So what

did you What do you do? Because my other favorite is like Couldn't Baby, which is really on many levels of left field record from what came before? What do you do on that? I worked on? Oh god, my least favorite of all you two songs is Who's going to Ride Your fucking Wild Horses? I'll tell you the great story about that. Apparently, you know, they've had Joshua Tree and act on Baby and it was very successful.

So it seemed like and they were still having trouble with acting Baby, similar thing, you know, to you know, eighteen months into recording. Oh my god, it's not finished. What can we do? We have to you know, one thing, it was like, it couldn't be anything like Joshua Tree. The idea was, you know, it had to be a complete you know, Bollo said this, we had to chop down the Joshua Tree. Very melodramatic, but you know, the idea was, we had to make a record that was

not that was not like the Joshua Tree. And so I got invited in again to come and do my thing to the Redder. Dare come and pull it in, come and finish off the the important songs, you know. So I did even better than the Real Thing, Yeah, which is a great song. I love that song. But I was given Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? And and I have to say I I worked a month on that song, and I and I there's not very many songs that I twitch when I hear, you know,

like you can see me. But the listener, if they're still listening, they've probably gone by now this one. And I'll believe they're riveted. Oh maybe they're not. Um, yeah, I would. I would twitch when when I still do whenever I hear it, because you know, for me production wise.

But but but let me go back. The reason there was so much emphasis on that song was that they were having a meeting with Jimmy Irvine and they were playing rough mixes of Acting Baby, and like Jimmy, Jimmy was just a friend, you know, I don't I don't think he was there, or maybe he was their their A and R guy at the time, But anyway, they were meeting with Jimmy Irvine and and he was like, you know, confused because you two had become a rock band and that in America at the time was considered

the most, um the greatest thing. They had no problem with rock bands. YouTube always had a problem being a rock band, you know. They didn't want to be a rock band. They wanted to to be an arts band, you know. So um So, Jimmy, I think was a little bit confused. I think when he heard Acting Baby until and they were they were listening to the songs and and they were talking about this new thing called house music. Right, And as they were talking about house music,

Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? Came on the stereo and you guys, hey, yeah, that's some hart of the music. That's fucking house music. You can buy a new fucking house with that song, you know. So it had got the blessing of Jimmy Irvy because it was a house music, meaning you could buy a new house with that right as opposed to Manchester. Okay, that record was famously cut in Berlin. Does location effect the recording? Okay, that record was not cutting Berlin, of that record was

cut back in Dublin. But the idea, and this is where you too succeed for me, is when they have a big idea, the big idea of the Joshua Tree was the desert, and I think that you feel that when you hear that album. The big idea for Acting Baby was Eastern Europe. They sort of stole it from Bowie and you know, but that's okay. That was the big idea for that album. The big idea for Um All that you Can't Leave Behind was retrospection. They absolutely managed to get that right. You know. Now, some big

ideas don't work, you know. The big idea for No Line on the Horizon was North Africa, was belly Dancers, was hookers. They went to North Africa to record the album. None of that is you know, they were chasing a hit instead of keeping to their big idea, you know, the big idea when they when they get it right, they nail it. Okay, let's just go back to the drum sound. I think he said, let's just load back more times with me than everything my talk to with Crenshaw.

What was the specific drum sound you use that clap brings up. Oh, well, he had his first album where he was considered you know, like Buddy Holly with the Glasses, and it was all there for his second album. You know that the album I did was called field Day, and I basically recorded I mean, I just put this really big ambiance sort of sound on it. And and he will still he he will defend that album. And subsequently I've had people say to me, oh, that's a

special little gem that album. I don't know if you've ever heard it called field all right, Well, the song if ever You're on my Mind, whenever You're Whenever You're on my mind. Yeah, it's got a great sound, like exactly. But at the time I think people were slightly confused by the sound because they expected Marshall Grenshaw to come out sounding a lot less sort of cluttery. Maybe you're something I don't know if cluttery is a word. Sticky.

Sticking with the drum sound, though, legend has it that you invented the gated drum sound. Is that true? Would you agree with? Well, I I certainly can lay claim to that, even though you know that it was a team effort like anything. You know, I only work as a team. I'm not you know, I've said this all along. You know, team efforts are what what I believe in. And yes, I it was certainly refined on the on the Pieter Gabriel album. But a lot of people call

it gated reverb. It's actually just it's a gated ambience. I don't think I've ever used a gated reverb on anything in my life. I use a natural sound of a room, and I gate that. But you know, no one wants to hear technical stuff. They want to hear stories of drug taking with Keith. Okay, okay, so speaking and so tell us the story of working with the

story of the Stones. Well, you know, basically, a real man never turns down the rolling stones, you know, And back in those days, I considered myself a real man, even though I knew the moment I got in there and I heard and well, okay, they they they auditioned a handful of producers. Basically, I think Mick Jagger called up this is how I heard the story, called up Elton John and said, who is there? We need a producer. You know, there's there's there's a lot of tension in

the studio at the moment. We need someone to diffuse the situation, you know. And I'll tell you why there was tension when I get to it. We need to diffuse the situation. Who is there? And Elton John, who you probably know still gets the top ten every week. He's an absolute because he's you know, the great thing about Elders that he's never written a lyric in his life, so he never feels like anyone is his competition because he's just a fan, you know, because really, a lyric

writer is the one who shows their dirty underwear. No one else shows their dirty underwear, right, it's a lyric writer who shows their dirty fucking underwear. So Elton is completely oh, listen to anyone's lyrics because I have nothing, you know, I will never think something. There's no Carton, will never think anyone's lyrics are better than mine. So Elton said, well, there's this guy, you know, Steve Lillywhite.

I like the sound of him. And there's so and so, and then said so I went and and the audition was to hang out with the Stones in Paris for the night, you know, in the studio, so they were working only you know, no one got the studio till about one in the morning, you know. So I remember meeting. When I arrived for my session, it was just as Rupert Hein was leaving. Who's a mate who was a mate of mine and lovely rightly man. And I hear

from his widow. Yeah, probably I used to. I used to hear from him, but now I hear from the widow and he um, he's one of the He was one of the nicest guys. I don't think he would have lasted with not right for stones. But but I somehow managed to get the job, you know. And but but from from the moment I walked in, I realized when where you know, it was just after Nick's first solo album had been released, and you know, which was affectionately known as that fucking disco album by all in

the studio. So I thought, oh, oh, now I know why they need to They want someone else to an arbitrator at least, you know. So I um, so my job was as much Henry Kissinger, you know, because I would have Mick going go and tell it because they never spoke to each other. Literally, they didn't speak, you know, even when they were out jamming, and they would jam a lot, and and you know, but I mean we did Harlem Shuffle, which was okay, I mean it was a cover version of an old Bob and our song

we did. I mean, there was a song called one hit to the Body that was acceptable, but it wasn't a great album. They never toured it. And I always said I did the worst Rolling Stones album ever until the next one. You know, I don't I I you know they but you know, the Rolling Stones were, yeah, hey that I don't put them in one of my greatest bands. I think they you know, they were a great blues band, but I don't, you know. And they

were very true to the roots, you know. I mean Keith richards Is is like as faithful to his music as he is to his wife, you know, And that's a very honorable that's a very honorable thing. Tell me the story of doing the Times and Twins in the Name of Love. I'm a huge Times and Twins fan, and I remember hearing that radio immediately had to buy it. And it doesn't really sound like they're big records thereaft No,

it doesn't. And it doesn't sound like what they were like before that as well, because um I spoke to Tom Bailey the other day actually he was in in quarantine in Auckland. He's such a lovely man, such absolutely lovely man. Um. Because you know, as you get older, you realize that if you don't speak to various people, you probably will never speak to them again. Because listen,

when our contemporaries are dying, it is so strange. Uh. You know, when you can see if the end is in sight, you say, well, what do I want to comment? I was talking to my shrink today. It's like I can't read every book. I can't watch every movie, can't listen every record. I have to choose it. It It makes me crazy. Before he said, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. No, I'm never gonna get to it. No, Well, I I don't care about I'd much rather be I'm

a people person. So I just want to make sure that I get to speak to my old friends because you know, I know there's going to be a point where it's like, oh wait, maybe it's me. You know, who's the next one to go? You know, m absolutely so. Anyway,

in the name in the name of Okay. So, before that song, the Thompson Twins were a sort of rag tag and tale hippie dippy band, six piece, seven piece band who played sort of psychedelic long pieces, you know, And we were doing the album in Rack studios in London, and it was an okay album It wasn't great, but it was at the very end of that album um and this Rat Studios was owned by Mickey Most who was like a legendary British producer and he um and

he just took uh. He bought this new thing called this new drum machine called a movement drum machine, and it was put in the studio. Tom suddenly started playing it and got this immediate like rush of creativity. And of course, you know, for me as a producer, it was not like, oh it is I said great, you know, because that's where the enthusiasm comes in. You see someone being creative, you have to push them because you never know when they're not going to be creative, you know.

So when they're being creative, my job is to is to to make sure everything is going well. So he started doing the drumbeat and then started you know, and he wrote the song there on the drum machine, and we did it and you know, and and and it was so different from the rest of the album. And I still think it's the only song I've ever had in the dance charts because in general, I didn't pick records with drum machines, and I you know, I much prefer a real drummer. But Tom's enthusiasm was so great.

And when we made this record, and of course then you know they went on and and and and carried on. But but but you know it wasn't you know that that their music subsequently was not necessarily my style? You know, I loved because you know, I would not say anything bad about it, because you know, when you know someone, you give them the benefits of the doubt for their art. Of course, you know. Okay, okay, since you mentioned rack, Hey, does the studio make a difference? Be do you have

a preferred studio? Three? Would you rather have the band live in their hometown or to relocate to make the rest? Oh? My god? Ay do I have a favorite studio? Well, in those days, the two prerequisits three prerequisites. One was that it was near where I lived, because I needed to get there. Two, I liked a good live area where I could if I wanted to, or some of the times where I always did make that drum sound. And three they had to have a table tennis table.

Are you a good pink plank player? You know what I picked up about yesterday for the first time in about three years and I was useless, so I can't say, but I had the skills in those wis do you do you know that the big thing in Russian now and it spread around the world, is betting on people playing table tennis table you see, I called it table tennis rather than pin point. But as I said, I couldn't believe this. These are not star players. But there's

a whole thing. You watch it on YouTube. Your bet it's crazy. So anyway you want a table tennis that, honestly, literally, those are the three things U would I take a band look with U? I always said. With the first three Dave Matthews albums I did, we recorded them. We we went away to record them, you know, the first two in Bearsville in upstate New York and the third

one at the plant in in Sorcelita. Now this was great because we we went there for a specific time to make the album and we and it was great. Now for the fourth album, they wanted me back, They said, Steve, we want to do this album. We built our own studio in Charlottesville. I said, okay, but let me warn you from my experience, it will it will go from making an album to going to work. Big difference when you're making an album because you're away from your home,

you're somewhere else and you're making an album. If you're living in your home and you have a studio in your hometown, you are not making an album. You are going to work. And of course when you're going to work, you can start complaining about it. And all of a sudden, the band members started, you know, there was it was going on longer, and I warned them, this album will take longer because you are in your hometown. You have other things going on in your life. And and of

course I you know, I got fired. My rough mixes went on to Napster. At the height of Napster, it's still the most downloaded bootleg album in history, called the Lily White Sessions. You know, I always say I got heartfully aware of this from I downloaded these, the fact that they ultimately went to uh, Greg Glenn Ballard. Do you give a ship that your stuff, you know, wasn't releasing that time? You say here that to business. No, I got all the kudos and none of the cash.

And at the end of the day, you know, when I die, I'm a legend in that world. And you know, I know that's that sounds very arrogant, doesn't it. But you know I got that band. You know, Glenn Ballard just wanted to make pop record and that's fine, you know, but um but I'm glad that that my album has been validated. That that that because because I did a lot, you know, with Dave Matthews band. They would I would allow them just to play and I would do everything else.

I would edit, I would make them, you know, I you know, but that's look, I I did very well from them, and you know, but I don't feel that connection with them like I do with you know, with you two. You know, I got you know when when when when I meet them, it's hugs and like hey hey hey, you know, with with them, it's it's not such a lovely inning. But that's life. Okay. Let's talk about the money. Traditionally, a producer gets a fee and hopefully you get royalties from record one. You gotta earn

back whatever you've been paid. How has it worked out for you financially? Have you gotten the money you deserve? Are you stay you're still fighting for their money? Well, you get a fee, you get an advance against a royalty, meaning that yeah, you get paid from record one if you're very if you if you have that in your contract, whereas sometimes the artists don't get paid from record one because they have a big advance that they need to pay back, you know. But yeah, I mean I I

had my my very early records. I didn't get very much because you sort of it's more about I want to do it rather than you know, you know, you have to give to get, you know, in that way. But but also a lot of those um, those early certainly those early virgin contracts, I don't know. I think they were very artists unfriendly because you know, Andy Partridge one of the most talented guys I've ever worked with. Just you know, he's up there with with we need

just so intricate, such fantastic. You know, he hasn't got what he's deserved, you know. And that sort of rubbed off on my money as well from that, so you know, it's but no, I've I've made a great living. I don't. For me, it's not about money. It's about what you leave behind them. And you can only spend so much and what do you what do you do? Did you blow your money or you have it, what do you do with the money? Oh? Look, for some reason, my

apple watch just said he didn't understand what you said. Yes, so they really are listening in everywhere, Bob oh yeah, oh god? So, um did I blow my mind? I don't think so. I've never had that, even in in the sorts of crazier days. I wasn't like one of those people who bought a Rolls Royce and because I never moved to l a and for me, it was like I always worked. It was always about the work

and the art, you know. And I was just not stupid enough to think that if I earn a million bucks this year, I need to live a million dollar a year lifestyle because I probably won't be earning a million dollars every year, you know. So you know, it's like some some sports stars still don't get that they think they're going to be playing basketball at the age of sixty five. You know, No, certainly in sports, you know, very in sports, it's very, very bad. I think it

probably has changed now. I think they have financial advisors and it improved, but you know, it's still a problem. But let's go back. You talked about losing the wonder in the excitement just before you moved to Jakarta. Well, I was losing. Losing it's a little bit. Yeah, okay, but let's just apply that to the music itself. For you, you seem to indicate earlier that the music itself changed

or maybe your reaction there too. Can you plat? I mean when I listen, the Beatles came along, music drove the culture, and then it faded at the end of the seventies, and the MTV came along and it happened again. And there's certainly music it's successful. People have no idea. You're talking about the BBC earlier, how we were addicted to the radio. So when did it change and why

did it change? Oh day, was just the technology changed and and and it's enabled the technology enabled people to make records in their homes and and the sort of you know, the recording studio is my church, you know, that's that's my religion. You know, as I say, I have no rules, but I actually do have one rule. I will not let anyone eat in the control room. You know, I won't let anyone it because because I the idea of smelly you know, eating at your workstation

is bad enough. And that's a very American thing, by the way, people eating at their desk. But if you know, if there's a rule I say to someone when they come in munching a fucking burger with onions, I said, excuse me, could you go out? Because it's like you walked into church eating a fucking hamburger. It's just not right. And for me, the studio is this wonderful place of mystery like the churches too religious people, So I don't that's my one rule. I tell people not to eat

in the control room. Um. But but but the sense of wonder, I mean, you don't have the sense of wonder as much when your first thing that you do is to turn on a you know, is to is to have sequences and and no musicians, and everyone's looking at the screen, you know. I think that's when you know. I've always used my ears, you know, my ears have been my thing, not my eyes. And now I think, um, a lot of people look to see what's wrong rather

than listen to see what's wrong, you know. And I uh, but also given the way record everything has to be so christine and perfect because it's easy for it to be christine and perfect, whereas back in the day, our favorite records were all this wonderful sort of connection of smudginess, that that that that you just listened to and was we're just amazed by and every time you heard it, you heard something new and some you know, and it was mysterious. Maybe kids now find music mysterious, but I

don't know whether they do. You know, you know, I don't think anything with any real profile is mysterious. Now today the biggest genre is hip hop, and there's still pop. Are you a fan of those records who died in the wall? Rocker? Oh? I'm I was never really a rocker. I've no, I never really. I don't think I've ever done power chords on a record in my life. I don't like power chords. It's the most uncreative way of making power. I've always tried to do other cover of dogs,

working on UM. I've always tried to look for other ways to get the right sounds. So you know, I've I've always turned down those artists. You know, if we had time, I would tell you my Guns and Roses story. Are you gonna tell it? Did you brite it up? Oh? Okay, And I'll tell you why I'm telling you this story. Okay, okay, Well, you know guns and roses, they are rocked royalty to

Americans especially, and to many many people. So when I got the phone call that Axl wanted to meet me for Chinese democracy, and this was only a couple of years into it, you know, so it wasn't like this, you know, no one really knew that the red flags. But anyway, so they flew me to l A, you know, to meet to meet me, and and and we went to dinner, uh that one mccassie Japanese restaurant just over the hill of the Fame. Yeah, anyway, absolutely, you know,

I've forgot the name. So and you know, we get on great, you know, me Axel and his manager of the time. I can't dug someone another's gold team. So we're chatting and we're great, great, we got on. Well, we and he says, look, I've got the studio book for the next six months. Do you want to come to the studio? I said, yeah, great, So we went to the studio and we're in there and and he said,

I'll play a few tracks. So he played me a few few tracks and and actually I thought, oh, I understand why he might want me on this album, I think, And I started to get excited. I said, but but all that they were just backing tracks, none of them had any vocals on. I said, do you have anything

with vocals, because yeah, I have one song. So he played this one song with singing, and I suddenly went, oh shit, I've just realized I literally could never press the talk back and say that sounds really good, because for me, it would always sound better without singing, because no, no, and I and I and I'm and I'm honest about this and I and I and and my heart sunk because you know, I've forgotten that that, you know, for for some people, as I say, they loved the sound

of his voice. For me, I didn't, And I maybe should have said that before I went to the meeting, But anyway, whatever, I just had this sinking feeling in my heart, but I didn't say anything. We finished the evening, I went back to the to the hotel. Next morning, Doug called me, Steve, you're in Axel things. You're fucking great, and well, actually, Doug, I I don't think I'm the right man for your album, and he goes, oh, really, blah,

blah blah blah art. But you know you can't force someone to have sex with k so um so we I didn't go, and that would be the story. I would never have told this to you and your millions of adoring listeners, except the next issue of Rolling Stone comes out and it's axl Rose turns down Steve lily White and I got you. You should have just said nothing. You know, you know, And so that's why I tell the story, because you know, if if I hadn't, if

he hadn't said that, and they can set the record straight. Okay, so you're obviously working. Are you working all day or is there anything else that fills the rest of the day, Your reader, your TV streamer. I'm a huge football soccer fan, you know, I mean that's my thing. I well, Indonesia right now, Jakarta is is in what they call semi lockdown. I can go to my office at KFC, but I can also do a lot of work from home, you know, which everyone's a lot of people have realized they've realized

that they don't have to go. But you know, I am a people person, so I do like to be with people. Um I restaurants here are open til eight o'clock in the evening at thirty capacity. But you know, I take a lot of I have a test every week, COVID test. I wash my hands, you know, I know lots of it. You know. It's the cases are starting to slowly, slowly built here because it's always you know, it's always centigrade thirty thirty two degrees. So I don't

think you've double that. They have thirty two. So that's basically ninety six degrees. Yes, something is in ninety six Yeah, during the day at about twenty five at night. Um, so it's it's it's lovely and it's a little polluted, although less polluted now because of because there's less industry, you know, there's less going on, but less cars on the street. But I mean, I think I have to after it's right now, it's for you, it's what seven pm,

right exactly seven pm? It's ten am for me, so I will yeah, I don't know yet, but it's it's a you know, okay, what do you what do you think about what's going on in Britain with Brexit, collvid, etcetera. And now that you live in Dakarda, well the whole I mean, it's just so sad that, you know, Brexit was a problem that we didn't even know we had.

You know, it was a problem. You know, David Cameron was actually not the worst Prime minister we had, but he did the worst thing ever to the British people. If you give if you only have a two horse race and you give them a choice this or this. I mean you look at American politics, Actually what happens is it normally splits very close to whatever, whether it's like the devil or gods. You know, it's um So, you know, no one really hated it wasn't a big deal. No,

no one hated Europe. But you know Brexit comes about and all that, the lies being told about. You know, it's got to be done. We need our own sovereignty. It's bullshit, you know. All I all I know is that if you're in a storm on the ocean, would you rather be in a little rowing boat or would you rather be in the Queen Mary? You know, And that's pretty much where Britain is now. We're a little rowing boat. Now. Everyone goes, oh, yeah, but we've got

far more vaccines at the moment. Yes, that's true, but you know, Um, it's because we're you know, you look at the huntries that have vaccinated the highest population are the ones with the you know, I mean Israel doesn't have a large population really, you know. So it's um. But yeah, I'm I'm very proud to be British, but I am a European as well, you know. Now I'm paying Okay, prior to COVID, how much did you get

out of Karna? And where did you go? Oh? Well, Bali, of course is part of Indonesia, but there's that's only one of thousands of islands, and they're these fantastic places to visit, you know, which are sort of weakendable for me. So um. But also you know, I like, you know, I live to eat. You know, I don't eat to live. I live to eat. So for me, one thing that my lifestyle has enabled me is the ability to eat

at probably the most expensive restaurant in the world. You know, how often, Bob, can you afford what is considered the best in the world of everything? I'll never be able to afford the best car in the world, now that's what I say. I use a much baser thing. I talk about chocolate chip cookies. If I'm meeting chocolate chip cookies. Why I take the ones off the shelf. I can get the best chocolate chip cookie for fire under ten dollars. I can live like a king. Well, that's true, you know.

And and one of the great things about food as a general art form is there are no um there no one owns the copyright on anything. So you know, you can go to a little village in Colombia and eat something, and you can take it to your restaurants in Ohio and tweak it, and then someone can come to your restaurant in Ohio and then take it to a restaurant in l A and then tweet. You know, So you get this wonderful getting better and better because

it's all different people working together. You know, there's no copyright on any food, so I I you know, even in Jakarta we get great food. Indonesian food is pretty good. But the thing I love at the moment is my air fryer. Are you familiar with? What are you cooking your air fer anything? It's great for heating up, it's great for chicken, it's great for oh god, chicken livers

in there are delicious. Um. Are you familiar with so not only do you eat, you know how to cook well a little bit, A little bit, Okay, I don't really cook it off. Okay, one can cook with an air fried bob by yourself an air fryer. Okay. What's the best meal you've ever had? The best meal I've Oh god, I don't know. I mean, depends how hungry I am. But but have you eaten some of the great what is it normal? Have you eaten this ill bully? Is the is the best one? And I've been to

a two mission. There's only three Michelin stars, right, And apparently someone told me the difference between a two Michelin Star restaurant and a three Michelin Star restaurant is only the service is the silver stood the actual quality of the food between the two and the three stars about the stay right. So I've been to a two Michelin Star in Singapore. Um, but you know, I'm always just

you know, when I find something that I like. You know, the same with the chocolate chip cookies, I artias and all like. You know that the big thing in Indonesia at the moment, and I don't know about l A, is that is that people they sort of advertise on Instagram and stuff. You know, on this day we are doing a batch of this and if you wanted to order it, order it now and we'll deliver it to you on that day, you know. So you know my um.

So there's one place that that does this clam chowder, but you know it's only every two or three weeks. So I always they have clam chowder in Jakarta. Yes, on sour dough. It's delicious. I loved a huge clam chowder fit And you don't have to give you three what's the clear? Okay? So what's your last meal? What kind of cuisine do you want? Oh? Oh? Japanese, followed by Italian. They are followed by Indian. I think those are my top three, I think, and then the Japanese.

Would it be sushi, sushimi or would it be good dishes? So it would be sushi. I mean, you know, the greatest sushi in the world. I mean, you know those places in on Sunset which which are like which you know, not romantic at all, and you sit at the sushi bar and I love that you can spend a couple of hundred bucks in half an hour, you know, I just feed me for me, you know, I don't go This is the trouble with America is too much choice.

If you have too much choice, you can hide. Mediocrity hides behind choice if you have Wow, that's a great statement. I've never heard that before. Well no, I've never said it before, but it does it well. This is my idea that that that if you have less choice, it has to be good. Otherwise you would you would um,

you would, you would go out of business. So if ever there's a restaurant that only serves one thing but it's busy, I would go there because I know if there's ever a business that only does one thing but it's a successful business, I know that it's it's great, you know, and Amakassie is pretty much that. You know, it's only what they find that day. And you know, I don't I don't tell someone how to cook my food. You know. It's like I don't tell someone how to

cut my hair. I just don't go to that barber or I don't go to that restaurant. Again, great philosophy. You know, when when I talk about you the third parties, I say, Steve is completely opposite of what you think of a record producer, certainly Phil spector recently. Not someone who's introverted, lives the dark. Whatever. You're a guy who could be playing on the football team. As you say,

you are a people person. Uh. You know, there's so many other sub next we could talk about, but I think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known for today's styes about if ever you need anything else, And look, it's been great. I loved it very good and I loved it too, and I know people love listening to it. Until next time this time, Okay,