Shirley Manson

I was. I was born in sixty six, so I grew up in the seventies and it was at a time when the British government actually paid for education. They put money into it and we all had government run schools and they were and they were well funded. So I had a great education I had. I came from a family, three children. My mom and dad loved each other until death did they part. And I think, now, no, what I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the

younger generations. I mean, the only thing I I haven't been to Scotland, but there was that movie and I can't remember there was a famous movie maker talking about the ice cream war in do you know that? Was that Donny Boyle thing? God, I can't remember. But in any event, where did you actually grow up in Scotland? But how do you how do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay? Ed okay? And what did your father do for a living? My father was a university professor, really, and what did

he teach? He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics and animal breeding, poultry breeding as well. He would come home for dinner. Would he talk about that? Very rarely? I mean he he as we got older, he would talk about the genetic program because they were his sort of university cloned Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if you remember that, but Dolly the Sheep. So that was his faculty that really. Yeah. So he started to talk up to us about genetics and we are so bored,

we can you know? Okay, So if I take you out on the ranch with the animals, you're as clueless as I am. Well, maybe not quite as clueless as you, Bob. We got the Huber going at this point in time, okay. And did your mother work outside of the house. My mother sort of eventually as we were growing up when we were teenagers. She's she became a medical reception as she looked after a bunch of doctors. But she really was pretty much a housewife, which is a terminology that's

thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete, but she she was. She called herself a housewife, right, I guess you know now they say, you know she works, but she works in the home. But okay, so where are you in the hierarchy of the middle child? The real messed up one the middle of three? And who else is a boy

or a girl? All three girls? All three girls. I'm a middle child too, so sorry, Okay, my older sister she believes you can conquer the world, and my younger sister is the baby could always trying to get out of this, and I was kind of lost in the middle. Yeah, I had exactly the same experience. It's really I was married to one who was also a middle kid. I wonder whether that was part of the connection. Because you're

kind of overlooked. You feel you you're overlooked. I don't think you actually are, but that's how I think I perceived it. And I also got hand me done clothes all the time. I never got new clothes. When I was growing up, I was always my sister's clothes, and by the time I had worn through the set of clothes, my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment. I didn't have that problem because by older and younger

siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you kind of you know, obey's orders. For the first sort of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I was an incredibly devout a student, and I, you know, had a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested in religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet, pretty h sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones

kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go to public school or did you go to Catholic school? Well it's a good question because we call public schools private school. We went to government funded You went to government funded schools, but you had a strict Catholic family. I did not. I came up in a Protestant family. My dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't help my No, no, no, no, you can imagine. I can't imagine. That kind of messed me up good too.

So yeah, okay, but you were a big believer. I was a huge believer. How about today you believe today? I'm a nonbeliever now. And what was the transition? How did you decide that there wasn't a little man in this guy who was deciding whether you've been naughty or nice? Well, it started off with just a sort of sudden observation of the people in our church that we went that we went to. I noticed that they did not adhere to the principles that were, you know, ceremonized, and I

started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All the people seemingly were anti abortion have had an abortion themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy. So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I, having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying

attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking, I started flirting with you know self, drugs. I became interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater in a band A little bit slower in America, it's kind of like the Little Rascals, if you know those Saturday Morning Carly, there's a Truman officer and if you skip school, they're gonna track you down. So you're skipping school and your father was in the educational system. Was

anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well not at first, and actually it was my dad who busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers didn't really notice because of the way that our system worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations, so you were there when they called the roll call, and then I would just go home. But my my my house was like jammed up against the playground of the school, so I could just get home to my

bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for skipping school until you had your father find out. He came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know why else we were up to you went absolutely mental, and he called the head master and he dubbed me in. He was like, my child is here, she should be at school. I'm sending her in to see you right now. And he sent me to the head master and I got.

I can't remember what happened, but I got well royally punished. I had to do like after school punishment and all that stuff. Well did it set you on a straight course or did you continue to diverge from the straight and arrow. I continue, even at fifty one, to diverge from the straight and now. Well, it's kind of funny. It's hard to diverge from the straight and arrow. We live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think,

and now there's total group think. And if you feel otherwise, you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that

does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But I was really lucky and that I had a very strong minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I would fight against him over and over and over again for years, to the point where I learned to hold my owner in an argument. If he didn't, you know, agree with me, that was cool. If I didn't agree with him, it was cool. He so he was really fair that way, and so I just learned to have

to develop my own system of ideas and beliefs. Do you think he was doing that to inculcate that behavior in yourself or do you think he was really rigid and you were just a rebel? Neither of the bob. I think he is quite rebellious my dad. Is he still with us, Yes, he's still with us. He's eighty one, and he's very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker.

And I think he enjoyed being challenged by me, because he often, of course when you have young children, he would browbeat me easily for years and years and years, and then eventually, as I became a little more skilled at arguing in my late teens, he I think he enjoyed. It was like it was like a sport for him, And it actually is a little bit of a sport for me now like I can argue with anyone. I don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people

don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore. Like it's really when you when you give a contrary opinion, it's like spinal tap person. No, my amp goes to eleven. I mean, I don't want to do it for my own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word might be. It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out the issues and makes me think afterward. But today everyone thinks they

have the answer. They can't see two different sides of the coin, and they're very you. You look like the curmudgeon when you go out there and you disagree with people. Well, I think there's a couple of factors at play. I think some people feel that they are not they don't have conviction necessarily and what they believe like no matter, I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction.

I believe really strongly and what I believe, and um, I think some people get shaken when you disagree with them, and or they feel like they're losing an argument if you even challenge the argument, and they've got this some weird idea about how they must win. They must win. Society's put all this pressure and must to be winners. You can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser. I mean that's really well described. But will you change

your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down and I say, hey, life evolved, It's like only in Washington, d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back. Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister, it was how much younger? Is two years younger than me. She's done in London doing what she works for a photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um,

my big sister is two years older than me. It's exactly like my favorite. We've got common here around. I feel your pain, brother. But my big sister she works in She was an intensive care nurse practically our whole career and now has has sort of semi moved into health education. She teaches nurses. Now are they reader in relationships? My oldest sister is in a relationship. My youngest sister is married with two kids. Okay, but you've never been married, right,

I am married? You are married. I guess I was unaware. How long have you been married? Eight years? Eight years? And is this your only marriage? No, this is my second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay, so you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's kind of a black and white you know, yes or no question. Yeah,

I didn't get past high school. I started flunked out in my last I should have stayed on for another year and I didn't have flunked out and I got really bad examination results, and my parents were really disappointed in me, and there was a lot of silence over the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here the crisis would be, if you drop out of high school, you have to go to work. That is correct. My dad said that to me, said, okay, you're you know you've

crapped out of high school. You need to go get yourself a job. And did you? I did? And what was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop, a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge. And how long did that last? Five? Years, five years and any upwards, any any upward mobility, or you're just the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted.

I started off. I started off as a sales clerk what we call the shop assistant, and then I was demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote, I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't fire you. They didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay, you're smoking dope, drinking what are you doing. I was doing a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice, and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and

okay going. Was there music in your house growing up? Yeah, there was a lot of music in my house. My mom was a sort of semi amateur singer, um semi professional should I say. She sang with us a swing band called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and then she used to sing for like weddings and concert parties at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob, you have very long I can't believe. I like to reach that far the first time this has ever happened

here on the podcast. But I noticed I touched before. I didn't even notice that time. But when she was professional, before you were born, how serious was that? Not particularly serious? I mean, my mom got bless her. She didn't have a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing she did she considered very serious. But she was a good singer, and she loved music, and she introduced me to music, and my love of music comes from her. Okay, so would she play records in the house? Yes, what kind

of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald, Nina Simon, sat von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she of Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show too was a similar thing growing up. My mother played them all the time. But and she is deceased. My my mom too, right now, My mother's alive. My father's dead, been dead for twenty five years. My mother's ninety one. But your mother, based on what you said earlier, your mother is no longer with no longer with How long

ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay, your father ever got involved in another relationship, Yes he has, He has not. Is he a serial data or is that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women he's been interested in and has pursued with great passion and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple of times. And so what do you what does that

feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I was cool with it because I knew my dad loved my mom and I knew that, you know, there was nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted my dad to have happiness. So it didn't bother me. It creaked me out a wee bit, you know. I thinking about my dad having an erection was just too much to care. But I was cool with him having fun in his life. I wanted that for him. But my younger sister had She wrestled with it the hardest.

She she she found it difficult to accept. Well, how long after the passing of your mother did he get started very quickly? And was your mother's sick or was it a sudden death? Yeah, my mom was sick. She had a very rare form of dementia, which is called Picks disease um and it was very aggressive and sort of took her out the game. In about eighteen months. My mother's you know, is on is on that excursion. So I speak speak with her, and she'll go on

and on. But whatever I tell her today, the next day, it'd be like we didn't even discuss. I See, my mom's disease wasn't like that. It was a different kind of it was. She sort of became just physically difficult to operate in the world. She always knew who I was. She never didn't know who we were. No. Like I said, it was very aggressive, an unusual form of Picks disease, and that the doctor in our hometown nobody had ever had an incident of this particular type of disease. So

she was young. She was sixty nine, which she was diag very young. And so how long did she go undiagnosed. Well, here's the other su in our families. I knew there was something wrong with my mom. My family told me I was crazy, But I have the same thing with my father. Got canceled. We were having to be in Mammoth Lakes, which is a ski area about four hours from Los Angeles, and I went out with my father to pick up a pizza, and my father for the whole half hour waiting for the pizza, just had his

head in his hand and he was going. And I came back and I told my mother, oh, you know something wrong with our flashes. Oh, he just had a physical. He's fine, he's fine. And a week later they found out the cancer. I'm so sorry. Well, it was a long time ago. At this point, it doesn't it's always painful to lose your love. Well, my father died at seventy and when he died, I was not quite forty, and I thought, oh, that's a pretty good run. But now I say, wow, that's really young. So there's music

in the household. At what point do you start to sing or play yourself. I was playing really young because my mom and dad got me into piano lessons on singing in an a choir, So that was around about seven years old. Did you practice, did I? No? No, no. I don't think the piano lessons too. But the practicing was the weakly. I found it very hard to practice anything, and that has continued throughout my entire life. I'm very lax about rehearsing and practicing and and actually being a

good student in that regard. But yeah, I was singing and playing by about seven, and that just continued through my life. My school picked me out to like learn the violin, the clarinet, playing the school orchestra. Can you read music even at this late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now, you don't forget that people claim to forgotten that Billy

Joel whatever. But as someone who could read music basically, then you occasionally sit down at the piano and then I look at the bass cliff and I go, there's no way. See, it's funny you should say that because it's always the bass cleff cliff. That is the hardest want to remember, but if you just play for a wee bit, it comes back. So you're playing it at this point. Do you ever have an light bulb go off and say this is what I'd like to do from my life? No? Ever, So what changes you know? This?

This is a bit of a long on Boing story. I've told it a million times, but nothing ever changed, Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled from pillar to post literally as my entire That is certainly a Scottish expression. No one in America is going to say pillar to post. Well, but you get the express, the idea. I know what you said. The expression. But nothing in my life has ever been planned. I have my My entire career has been made up of stumbling from one place to the

next and no plan, no real solid ambition. Although my dad claims that that's not true, but I don't remember having any major ambition to do much except be a ballerina. That's what I really burned to do. Then I couldn't do that because I got too tall and I hurt my ankle. So then I wanted to be an actress. This is it? What age? What age do you hurt your ankle? I was It's a good question. Then you want to be an actor? Do you act on that?

Do you actually act in school plays? I had a drama teacher that took great interest in me and got me out into Edinburgh Youth Theater. Outside of the school as well, she encouraged me to like audition for drama school and so and so forth. I didn't get into drama school. And that's suwhere that I didn't get into drama school. I got approached by this guy that I had met at Edinburgh Theater who needed a keyboard player in his band. And because you know, I've been living

in l along doesn't just happen. So how was he aware that you played the keyboard? Well, I think he maybe asked me. He was very interested in me sexually. Okay, that's straightforward. He was more interested in me, I think, sexually than he was my my musical skills. But he knew I played pianos so and he knew he could lure me into his band to play keyboards. But you had to say yes. I didn't have to see yes. Say yes. I did see it. So what was your

inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been rejected from drama college, so I had nothing else to do, and so for want of some entertainment in my life, I joined the band. And this was at what age fifteen or sixteen? Okay, So you go and you have this band. What kind of music you play? Well, you would call it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals were playing was on the hip Parade? They were originals. I can't ask me if they were on the hip three. That

is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I think. So they were originals. And in the United States, which is my frame of reference, it's very hard to get work being an upstart band playing originals. So did you get gigs with this band? We did get gigs. You know. We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland, which had a small music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast. Became quite large fish in a very small poet. Well that would you know, seem to say that you were good?

We were good? So why were you good? We were really unique, really original, like we were like no other band I have ever seen in my life. I mean, we were a right bunch of Motley three. Um, we were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did you have a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes? I did. Okay, how long did that last? I don't know, about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended? Did

the band break up? Okay? The band survived. The band survived, So how long did the band go on for? And the name of that band was Goodbye Mr Mackenzie. Okay. We'll return to this conversation with Chirley Manson of Garbage in a moment. You're listening to the Bob Left Sets podcast recorded at the tune in Studios in Venice, California. Each week I interview a new guest and dive into their lives and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe,

rate and review the show. Please also check out some of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson of the band Hard and famous gate boarder Tony Hawk. You can hear them all on tune in the Apple podcast or your podcast player of choice. And now more with Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr mackenzie, are you for five years you still working in the shop? You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stopped working in the shop? Are you living off the money

from the band? Or are you have to get another day job? I'm living off my day job, okay, but after the after working in the shop, excuse me, then I barely existed off money from the band, barely okay. Still living at your parents? Are still living at my parents? You know, in America things have changed. But in my era, once you got out of high school, parents said you gotta get out of the house, and of course you could afford to live somewhere on minimum wage. Now it's

just the opposite. Can't afford to living where I'm miimum wage and people want their kids, and people do move back. So what did your parents think, You're getting older and older, you still living in their house. My mom wanted me so there was It was never even discussed, really so she did made all your meals, clean your clothes. Not at that point. I mean I was an adult by that point, but no, she she wanted her children amongst her for as long as she could possibly have them,

and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're in the band for ten years. That's a long period of time and it takes a long time to make it. But at that time, do you have a fantasy of this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it. I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean, in retrospect, I really did love it, and I wasn't looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down. I was like, we're never going to be rich, We're never going to be hugely successful. But I really love

doing what I get to do. And we traveled a lot, so it was the first time I got to go to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany, go to Holland. I mean, I went all over the place with this band, So that was exciting to me. And it was enough that of course begs the question, which you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at a relatively low level, and what's it like being a woman

on the road. You know. I didn't really think about it too much because in my very first band it was very iglitarian and the Scots in general are pretty like, even in a funny way, in a different way, that men and women are much more sort of equal in Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not entirely sure why, and this is the first time that's ever come out of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking of but it never was an issue. Sexism was never, in my

mind an issue. However, looking back on it too, I wasn't one of the writers in the band. It was two male members who kept all the writing to themselves and never invited anybody else into the writing dynamics. So they were the power seat. And I just didn't care about money back then, and I didn't care about power back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms. I just was having fun and that was enough really, so there were no ultimate goals down the road. None.

It's kind of funny that a loser, I'm telling you fascinating thing because there's a book called You Just Don't Understand, and it sounds like a self help book written by this PhD. Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says, men are all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm trying to rise to the top where women are about the community. Like if a guy loses his job, he loses his identity where she would say a woman. And

of course there exceptions to all this. Well, this is where I am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow, and I'm just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I mean again, like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations right in this exceptions to all the rules. But in this case, yeah, I think I had been taught from a very early age basically just to be in the clan system, and whatever your seat was in that system

was your seat. I just accepted my seat. Now that's changed as I've gotten older, I start to fight from my own seat and the seat that I won't but back then I was very sort of submissive. I guess. So the band goes on for ten years, what to what degree is it successful by worldwide standers? Well, we got signed by a large label. We got signed by My Records and Capitol Records, and we started bounced between those two labels, and we got a big advance, but

that all went to the writing partners. I didn't see any of that. But we did get a big advance, and there was a great buzz on the band, and we charted very briefly, um, which was enough to sustain us to keep trying and trying and trying for years. How many records did you make in that under that moniker? Well, I think I did four, but after you left they

did more. They did another two. I think. Okay, so you did those four and then you made a solo record under not your own name, correct, Although the soul so called solo record was really just a recalibration of Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, which was my first band. I e the lead singer of Goodby Ms Mackenzie stepped back and I took over lead vocals because we had gone to Berlin to make a record. Are Lynn. That's funny. I know what you're talking about, but my brain had a percolate. Person, sorry,

excuse me. Why Berlin? What is this? I don't know what year this was? What is it with the UK? I mean, you know acton Baby? You two went to uh Berlin, to Berlin? Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went to Berlin, and therefore everybody else wanted to go there. And interestingly enough, Acting Baby was being recorded in hans of studios at the same time that we were there, and so we were all there when the wall came down, and it was you were literally there when the wall

we were literally was that like crazy? Literally? Somebody just called us something, went where are you right now? We're like, we're in the studio. It's like you need to get to the wall. They're pulling it down right now. It was that quick. I have a piece of the wall in my home in Scotland. And so was there any once you went out to the wall? Was there any fear? No? Was it just excitement? Everybody was really excited and it

was crazy. Well, when I went to Berlin, as you say, and you're there in the wall that still remains on one side as a bunker on the west side is where you know, underground where Hitler was. On the other side, you see where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let people live because they were afraid. At first, they were using ropes to go over the wall. I mean, you

get this really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean when I first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie was still operating and we still had to cross through it to get to East Berlin, you know, and East Berlin had nothing. You know, you go to eat Berlin now and it's like any affluent part of Europe, but back then it was. It was grim and there wasn't much there and people were really struggling. So when you in Berlin record you would go to East Berlin and

with just to see what's going on. And we went there to see what's going on there, and because it was an incredibly hip kind of scene there, you know, because it was forbidden and anything bidden people won't right, So you make the record in Berlin because the lead singer was whacked or burned out or kicked out, not none the above. Good by Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa to to record a record and we just got lost. Been a frenzy of partying, and we spent our entire

recording advance on having fun. And then when we came back we had nothing to show for it. We hadn't we had no finished music or anything. I can't remember a good idea. So you blow all the money. Record company stone like that. They hated that, so they dropped the band, but they held up like the head of the record label said, I love you. I think you're amazing, and you could do something on your own call me when you get your ship together. Okay, but you were

not the lead vocalist. A good bye, Mr mackenzie. So why did this person? It was just your overall charisma that he felt. I don't know, I've never stopped to think about it other than he liked me. You know, he was a really amazing person at say, his name is Gary car First, and he was well, I know Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately, but he was. Uh he had his own label, radio Active for m c A. And he was a big manager of the Talking Heads and exactly, but he was in New York.

How did he find you in London? Oh? God? We had opened Obama's McKenzie had opened for for Debbie Harry's solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and he had met me there and just liked me. He's like, you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on, so he was always like, you're a star, so and and he just as a result, he then fell in love with Obamais ckenzie signed Obamas mackenzie and then when he dropped Obamas Ckenzie, he was like, I want you

let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how long did you go home before you say I'm ready to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized this was our only only solution, which was and and there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this wasn't work. I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't fit for anything. I didn't I didn't have any calls. But I mean, you didn't say, okay, this Gary thinks

I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not my style. I'm quite loyal, okay, And I didn't want to leave my band in the shitter. Okay, but all of a sudden, do you become the singer? I don't know. I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and trying to remember our hazy memories. But I think just the whole band were like, let's put Shirley and lead vocals and we'll recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity. And

we all thought in practice we could do that. As it turns out, the male members of the band couldn't really hack the fact that I became the sort of focal point of the band, and and all the business started like Gary would drawn all business through me, having been burned by good Bram's, Mackenzie and Berlin. He was like, you're now in charge, You're responsible. I will only communicate with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened.

And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina Weymouth of the Talking Heads because they were Gary's clients. And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye. I did, but Chris and Tina were producing Chris now lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis, And yes, so fear Field, Connecticut. So how how do you are you? Were you happy with what transpired when those sessions? I was freaked out. But it was such

an honor for me to work with Christentina. I mean, I can't even put that into words. It was so extraordinary for me, and I was I was proud of what we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point you were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope? And so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to write the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like I said, it was just a recalibration of good by

Mr Mackenzie. Just in order to survive, we had me do the the take over the vocals, but the writing partnership remained the same. And the record comes out and then one and then we go on tour with Vic Chestna and Life Chestnut. That's quite a bill. That's amazing bill actually, and I fell in love with Vic and he fell in love with me, and we had a love fest. But well, Vic chest And it was in a wheel chair, he was he was apparently. Yeah, so I have to ask that you said we had a

love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No, just admiration? Yeah, yeah, we just got we hit it off, you know, admitted suicide very strange. Yeah, okay, So you go on tour that that bill. We go on tour, and um, the band is sort of falling apart already because the boys are just are not happy with the Paris structure at this point, which I totally understand. Why should you understand, Well, I don't know, but I did, And but I was having fun. You know, I was going on to in

America the first time. I've never been to American shore. So to like travel all over America in a van was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life. You know, it's across the desert in a van. Well, the funny things. I grew up in the seventies, that was the dream to drive across country, and now everybody flies.

People don't even do that, which is sad because it really is an extraordinary way to So we did that, and then Rule in Stone picked up on us and sort of lauded us as like what one to watch And that was the final straw for my band. They were like, we're going home. We can't hack this anymore, And I kid you not. That very day I had gotten a phone call from my future band saying, would you be interested in meeting up with Butch vig Um about singing on a possibly singing on one of like

a project that he's working on. Literally the same day the bands as were calling it quits. Yes, okay, are you still friends with the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now? I am, yeah, but we have it was it was very difficult. It became very complex, and it was difficult for Martin and the lead singer in particular, to like, I think process what had happened not only to him but to me too. But yeah, and now we're friends, and what do they do? There is still in a

band that are called the Filthy Tongues. They're actually really great and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues. I don't know if they make a living, but there are song writers. They also worked with Um the Skids. They just helped co write that last Skids record, the fourth anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And you know they do okay, and they're they're they're there. I'm proud of them but they were resentful for a

long Yeah, just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay, So you get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well, now you already know you're being as a band into you, so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah. I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god, because that would have been very difficult because I've already met Butoch and the Garbage in London for a quick meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story.

But I had met them in London a few months to going on tour in America, and we had liked each other and that and then the day that my band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I was in Astbury Park in a hotel room, crying and I get the phone call from Duke Karrickson saying, Hey, are you interested in coming up for an addition? I was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay, But when you meet them in London, is it just social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out?

And did you know that at that time? Okay? But I the way they had approached me was would you send one song on Booch BIG's project. I was like, yeah, of course I didn't feel that question my loyalty or anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious. I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition.

It was a disaster. But then we all went out to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like a house on fire and we had such a laugh that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition, and something about I guess the way we had all gotten along sort of pushed us to have a second edition. And okay, so did they agreed the your audition sucked to they did? What was bad about it? Have you

ever seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay? Well, shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their fame of songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video radio Head singing one of the most famous songs, but then they've re recorded a different audio over the top of it. And it's like that, Well that's what my audition was like. It was like shreds. So you couldn't I wasn't even articulating any words because I was so

nervous and so embarrassed that it was just awful. How long was it between the first and second auditions, I don't know, maybe three months, a long time. And during that period you got nothing. I got nothing. Okay, so you go back in the second audition it is okay, Now these are guys you know, butch Vig had a huge studio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity? But did any It ended up becoming an instant success,

But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever. In fact, I was convinced it was going to burn badly because I was like, nobody wants to hear from a producer, nobody ever has, So why will this work? Especially with me and that's the lead singer. It's going to be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there. We'll be back with more. Shirley Manson of the band

Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi, this is Bob Left Sense my guest come to the tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations with me. And if you ever want to see what they look like or where we take the show, check out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest, Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the audition three months later, how long after that do you

go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless, I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes out on Almo in America. Why is that? Well, we'd signed to the young management, that to Kato Boots at the time. We're very smart and they were young, go getting women who had an idea. So the Butcher's manager were women, young women, that's certainly you know. And were

they also managers of Garbage? Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay, but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck two deals, one in the UK for the rest of the world and one for North America. And they were both independent record labels. And that was what we were very keen on pursuing because what was the record label in the UK? Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so

you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god, about eighteen months with a break for Boot to make a Soul Asylum record of all things? Is it? It's that slow? Because well, I think there was a lot of feet involved. Booch had a lot to lose, and so he was very, very meticulous, and I would say all of all of us were fearful of taking the wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity, I think,

and so just took a ridiculously long time. And when the record is and you're living where when that time, I'm living in a weird hotel, Okay, and the record is done. Now do you think we have something? This is gonna work? Not really, But it's a hit. From Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit. And the only other thing I could think like this from a couple of years later was Lanti's more a set, also immediately a hit. And was that your sensation? Yes?

And no, I mean we were aware that it was taking off in a major way really fast. But there were always artists that were doing so much better than us on our record labels because they were small, really relied on us to make money for them. We became this sort of like little machine that they sent out into the world to fund all their other artists who weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us, you know, no doubt or selling more records than you, Atlantis more

set is selling more than you. You know, We's are selling more than you. You're losing. It was constantly telling us how much we were losing. So as frustrating and awful as that process was, I'm actually quite grateful for it because it made us really like be humble. We were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the MTV era. You're all over television, you have a unique look. You probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately. There

was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also made must you know, after years of relative obscurity, must have made you feel very good on the inside. No, it made me feel rotten on the inside. Why. I don't know why. I mean, I I didn't have a lot of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention made me feel really self conscious, and I felt the whole time I was being judged and that I was failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis. More set, I was just me, surely, Anne, you know,

I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's how I viewed it at the time. I mean that changed, obviously, you know, my confidence grew and I got better at what I did as an artist. But right at the beginning, I just felt rotten. And so ultimately you tour and there's and garbage continues. So what can you say about that experience of the late nineties and early twenty one century. I could sit here for hours and hours and hours

and talk about it. I mean, it was extraordinary. It was an extraordinary time where alternative music ruled the roost and that has never happened before. It's certainly never happened since. So I was. I am an alternative music lover. I'm not particularly turned on by pop or conformity of any sort. Like I love music that's sort of a little off kilter, you know, And that's just been my personal taste since

I was young. And so it was a moment where we were enjoying this insane success, global success as where a lot of bands that I loved and joid and we were a community in some ways. You know, we all played these massive summer festivals and we all got to know one another. We played winter you know, on radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot of camaraderie, and so it was a very exciting time for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists?

You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck, whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was No Doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that the list was, you know, and we we all everyone was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean, it was it was really wonderful. So why do you think that scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop? That's a good question. I mean, I know why it became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think

the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really exploded because it was a new it was still new. I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it really was one of the the most courageous and creative in terms of modern production. You know, they really they sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street, was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of

authority and and and our society. Anyway, But is there any hope for so called alternative music? There's always hope, of course. Okay, Well they're always hope. It's blind, you know, blind optimism. Now I don't think that is blind optimism, and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic because I think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the irony is in the century really hasn't If you go back prior to the napstre era, meaning last century, every two or

three years there was a whole new sound. Okay, we had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle, which were eclipped by eclips by hip pop. It was then then it pop came after that. Now for the twenty one century, we've had pop up pop and hip hop. Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been almost twenty years. No, it's true, But I mean, one could say though that hip hop has been the dominant sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive

and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again, it's not my preferred choice. But there's always artists that come along that catch my ear and excite me. Whether it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're making a point about, you know, why alternative music has been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if I had the answer to that, I would be you know,

I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here, you're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true. I mean it's very different it used to be. And under the old paradigm, you made the record, okay, then your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went to radio. They may or may not play it. They may or may not be a reaction. But you were either on the train or you're off the train. You said, hey,

this worked or it doesn't work. Today, a band of the Statue of Garbage could put out a record, and it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst its fans. What is that like being the maker of that music? You know, it's interesting because obviously as an artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that. That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting. I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this,

as has my bands. By the way, is get back into what I call a beginner's headspace, a sort of a place where you don't expect anything, And we've all been able to somehow get back to that space where we were before any of the success. So we now make music solely because we love each other. We have a good creative working relationship. We enjoy making music and we enjoy touring it, and our ambitions are not much

bigger than that. And as a result, we've been able to still find joy in the process of doing what we do. And we've been very lucky in that we've built upon that slowly and we have a very loyal fan base. And yeah, we're still able to be in the music scene. You know, Okay, but there's a lot these especially now more than ever. It's a business, and when you go on the road, you have to feed everybody in the crew. Everybody in the band has to be in the black at the end of the day.

There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's a pressure to sell as many tickets as part possible. You must feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue. You go out, you say, well, they want to hear the hits. How much new music do you play. It's one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do you feel on stage and how do you deal with that?

I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're on stage, and if people don't like that, then so be it. That's not for me to say, but I feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well, you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come with us in whatever. So if you have new music

and you go on the road. How much of the new album will you play the last record that we released, We played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage and you're watching Do you visit of lea see people get up and go to the bathroom? Of course, I mean we were on We were on tour last year and we it was summertime. You know, you're playing these summer festivals. And I looked out and there was a man on a sun lounges. You're fast asleep throughout our

entire set. So what you're on stage, what goes through your mind or through your heart? Well, when I was younger, that would have devastated me. Now I find it funny, and I realized, I'm like, I am here to do a job and connect with someone. It doesn't have to be everyone. You know, I'm not failing if I don't touch every heart in this audience. But my job is to get out there and tell my truth and hope that somehow I connect with one or more people. And

that's all I think about. I don't worry about being famous, I don't worry about being important. I don't worry about being a start. I really do not give a ship, I'd want to be a working musician because that's what I value. I value working musicians more than anything in

the world. That's my jam. Two Things one two thousand five definitely and Brian Adams went on a tour where they played ballparks and they would alternate headlining, and I happen to see them in a there were minor league ballparks in Minnesota, and at that time, the opening act

on that date was Brian Adams. He had had a set list and he's playing, but also he could bring children in for free whatever, and he was having this experience of the audience not being with him, and he literally, I was standing on stage literally, you know, looked at the band, literally took out the set list and ripped it in half and slowly brought the audience into the palm of this hand and worked them into a frenzy. It was a magical thing, you know, something that only

someone was very experienced doing it. Do you ever feel challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm gonna win him over all the time I go out feeling like it's like we are coming from a place of lack. We are going to try and change in mind. I always feel like that. Yeah, okay, so now how often does garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to us because we have such a bizarre set up. Well, the reason I'm asking what do you do with the rest of

your time? That's a good question. I have absolutely no idea. I set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay, you're an out of work tiger. Are you the type pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my band members to record or go on the road or okay, but how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it be music, aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me. At this point, I feel it's up to me to find joy in my life. It's not nobody else is going to come

and serve it to me. You know. But you're painting a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay, and when you're not working, you're frustrated. You would like to be working with the band. I am frustrated, but I think life isn't that simple, you know. Human beings

are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and also go out to an art gality and see something that will blow my mind and make me feel excited, and I have like all these ideas and it excites me and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come home and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute, like most human beings are. Okay, but okay, this is another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right, I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk

out the front door in your mood changes. Yes, it's just astounding. You just have to frost the threshold. But assuming it's just you're not on the road. An average day, you wake up when seven is Oh, so you're living regular human being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm more creative at night. I have a dog and the dog has to get out. I'm not a dog person.

I'm in service to my dog and the dog. You have to get up at seven, seventh thirty, you know, And are you the type person who will go out to breakfast with friends or you are not going to breakfast with friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes? Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person. You're not a loner. I am very much a people person. I love people and I'm fascinated by them, but I'm

also a missanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality that exists in most human beings, like I am really fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once. Do you want to see them again? It depends how great they are, right exactly, or do you find I have no interest in seeing them. There are a lot of people I find. You know, everybody's got a fascinating story. You can hear it once, but there are other people.

Every time you hang with them, they tell the same story. And it's like, you know, I have no I have. I bump him, and it's one thing. But I'm not gonna make plans with them. No, of course not. I mean that's how you select the people in your life. No, but it also makes me feel I mean, uh, I don't view myself as you know, the average person. I don't know what you can even say this. Maybe it's out a date. Average person is getting up in the morning and going to a job. They're seeing people all

the time at the job. It is wearing them out and they come home and they want to relax. They maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and get up and do it again. And on the weekends they'll go out to dinner, We'll go out to a show. They'll cut loose. Okay, where this someone once made a great line? You know, the people who party hardest on these entrance are not the music business people because these other people it's one time of years. You got a Vegas.

These people out of control. We're in the music you can you can party every night, So why shouldn't be out of control tonight? So my question is are you since you don't have when you're not on the road, you're not recording? Uh are you in the house sort of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk my dog alt I go to galleries, I read a lot, I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends.

I mean there's a million and one thing. So in the average, in the average week, how many times in a week would you go to breakfast with friends, go to dinner with friends? It's no idea. I'm trying, you know, trying to say it. You know, you sound very social, So therefore, when I hear that you about your frustration, I'm just trying to figure it out, you know. And you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type of person who really you know, you go when you

have a good time. But are you mostly alone or you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea. This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm both gregarious. I both love people and I hate them. If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life with my dog. Okay. So if you're home alone, I'm you're a happy pig and ship. Okay. And you're married

at this point, they've been married for eight years. What did your husband do for a living? He's a music producer, music producer. We could look this up online, so what what what does he actually do? Well? He also works with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, and he also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing bands on his own, is he tend to be in town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town. And if you go on the road, does he go with you on the road? Yes, and he does the

sound on the road. So you're together. We're together. And how did you meet him? We hired him? You hired him? And how he was our guitar? Roadif how old is he relative to you? He's a year younger than me? Okay, so basically the same age. How long did it became a romance? Oh? Years and years and year, years and years and years. He loved me from the day that he met me, he said, In fact, he said that he loved me before he met me because he'd heard me sing. And he used to listen to a garbage

c D every night to go to sleep. Milk would send him to sleep every night. This was before we met. Then we met, and I couldn't have been less interested in him. And but then over the years he became a really good friend. And then I started to notice that when he wasn't around, I didn't feel good. Really Yeah, but he was, you know, carrying a torch this whole and was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was

the transition? What made it happen? I mean, I tell this story all the time, and people don't believe me, But this is how superficial and cheap I am. So my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning, long rocker hair, and she shaved it off so he

had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We were supporting I think Alanis Morisset, and we came down in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and there was a super hot guy standing by the side of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship, that's Billy Bush there and began the romance. Okay, and I actually married how long eight years? How long has the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe long time? Yeah? And now, uh, you were married once before I was.

And what was that about. Well, it was about a gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much, but we were pulled apart by exchaneous circumstances. I started touring the world, and also I think I had rushed to his side because he was a paternal figure and I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive relationship until I met my first husband, so we kind of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end?

It just ended it sadly in me becoming successful and going on tour and we've never seen each other, and then the relationship just kind of deteriorated. And am I great, you don't have any children? Right? Oh? God? No? Okay, so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that you were never gonna have children. No. I never knew that I wouldn't have children, But I never ached for them.

Like women talk a lot about aching in their wombs, and I would always be like, kind of like a dude looking at them blankly, like what does that even mean? I don't even know where that is. I had no aching in my womb and no longing for a child. Really, how about your husband? None either? Well I felt the same way. I felt that I was living my own life and I didn't want to subjugate myself. But once

I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless. And I saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and I understood it at that point in time. But it's very much a different life when you don't have kids. I'm not complaining but it's different. People say, oh, I'm turned onto this and that by kids. I'm not turned on. I mean, you know, it doesn't happen to me. No, But I also don't believe one should live vicariously through your kids. I don't mean, like I couldn't agree more trying to say,

especially when it comes to musical trends. They'll be in the car and the kid will say, hey, put this on the radio here something you would normally not listen to. My Yeah, I mean, there's billions of children in my life, thankfully, so it's not like I'm out of contact with any kids or any new music or whatever. But for me personally, I think my mother was so devoted to me as a mom, like she was an orphan like my mom

was had a crazy story. She was like an orphan child of a governess and a butler in a stately home in Scotland, and the idea of her the mom having a child out of wedlock would have lost she would have lost her job and been you know, castigated. So they took the baby in a basket literally and dropped her off in an phonage and she was reared in the in the institution of you know, or orphanages. Until she was five years old. Family was really important

to her and she dedicated herself slavishly. One would say to her children, and I think I just grew up thinking, no way am I doing that. That is not I'm not doing that. We're going to pause for a moment. We joined this conversation with truly mamson of the band Garbage. This is Bob left Sets. I love talking to people getting their stories, much like I do on this podcast.

For tune in, I'll be talking to some of the most important people in the music and tech industries that my Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara the last week in of April. I'd love to have you joined the event. It's going to be a great way to connect in person with these high profile individuals learned how they made it in the future direction of their industries. Go to Music Media Summit dot com for tickets and more information. Let's continue the converse nation with the lead singer of

the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for the last six months we've been living through this me too moment. First question would be, you know we talked about with your first band, but have you experienced any of this sexism or sexual harassment. Yeah, of course, every woman that you talk to will, unless she's incredibly privileged, you'll have a story. Now, on some level, you're very dynamic and very quick, but on some level, one level, some level, I'm gonna get

to the other level. So on some level you're very dynamic and you're quick, okay, but you also tell stories of being shy and subservient. So where does this leave you in these situations? Well, that's a really good question. I mean, it's peculiar. I don't think anyone who hasn't been physically touched unwanted in an unwanted fashion really can understand why it's difficult sometimes to use your voice in

that situation. Um I I consider myself a very dominant, aggressive, articulate person, and I've had my body touched and have frozen as recently as last year. Uh, when you were to the degree you're comfortable. What happened last year? I was at a radio festival and we were meeting competition winners and we had there was a long line of people that we were just standing in front of a backdrop and having our photographs taken, and some dude moves in,

stands beside me, puts his hand on my breast. He's got his arm around me, and then puts his hand on my breast and I think, oh wow, he's he's so nervous and uncomfortable his hand on my breast. This is embarrassing, that's all right. And I tried to like shift,

and he just kept on grabbing me. And then eventually I put my own hand on his hand and pushed his hand to try and get him off my breast, and he would not let go, And eventually I managed to push his hand down to my waist and we took the photograph and I was frozen like deer in the headlights, and he wandered off and I couldn't even look where he went, what direction he had gone, and I was just so my mind was so full of like wow, that dude just grab my tip in front

of everybody. Now I'm not saying that's comparable to what a lot of women have experienced or some men, by the way, but it was unpleasant and I found it really upsetting. And I was angry at myself for not going dude and shouting, you know, calling him out, like what are you doing? But I didn't, and so it gave me some insight into the process that occurs for so many women in situations where they just freeze and they can't push back, they can't shout, they can't fight back,

they can't say anything. It's mad. So let's just say, in the same thing would have happened this summer, do you think you would freeze again? I don't know, you know, I don't know. That's something I don't think men understand. You See, It's like when you're a woman your entire life, when you walk out the house, you're aware that you could be hurt in some way and then never have

that experience, not really, unless that're warfare. You know, generally speaking, a man doesn't have to think about his physical safety. Women think about all the time, and it's something that men go bless them, just cannot quite connect to the idea of Like, you know, you're walking down the street, you're nervous. Is some somebody whistles out your says something sexual to you. It's intimidating, it's frightening because you don't

know where it can lead. You know, I was married to someone who did not have them as a guy. We've all been in places. We've hit on somebody that's kind a weird kind of tation. We've even talked to a woman okay, and they very specifically send a signal it's a brush off. I don't want to talk to you, okay, And if you're a man, unfortunately, if someone doesn't give that signal, a lot of people but then see that as a green light unfortunately. So you fear as a woman,

you feel you might get hurt to what degree? What behaviors doing you employ to make sure you don't get hurt? Well, I mean you're careful, you know. I've always been very careful. I don't walk down dark streets alone at night if I can possibly help it. If I am down in dark street at night by myself, I'm walking down the middle of the middle of the road because it was going to take a further distance to drag me from one side to the other. I mean silly things like that,

you know. Um, I make it very clear, and I'm very lucky in that I am not scared to say, dude, I'm not interested, you know, please go go back and join your friends or you know. I'm pretty clear, but not, But not all women are like that, And a lot of women have been conditioned to please men and up ease men, and they don't. They don't want to upset them or hurt their egos or or incite them, you know, to be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play.

I mean, I know we've all talked about this for some months now, and my only feeling about it all is we need to educate our children, our boys, and our girls. And what would that look like, Well, you know,

it's it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know, there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even when a woman says no, that you know that they learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll finally get what they want. She'll relent, you know. Blah blah blah. There's all this misscons like misguiding stuff out

there about what it means to be a dude. And I just think we need to to change a little just I just think a few tweaks and the way we raise our children will will help men and women co exist a little more comfortably with those tweaks look like. I think the great thing that I welcome the most

right now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think that is a great start right there, where men are not expected to be you know, the the the one who the alpha, yeah, or they're not expected to be the predator and or the chaser or the one who always asked a woman out in a day where it becomes a little more eglitarian where men and women are.

You know, a lot of the time when I was growing up in the seventies, women were just expected to wait, literally wait until a man asked her to dance, you know. So it all starts off at primary school for us, you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland, were all the women were lined up against the wall and then the men or the boys were sent now, go choose your partner, and the man would the boy

would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And that's really crazy. You know. I'm not healthy and not good and it starts right that early, you know. And I think boys are praised for being you know, good at sports and aggressive and and even violent, you know, and women are praised for being pretty and cute and small and just a little tweaks like that. You know, I think it could help change the Well, let's go back to your husband. You pull up in the bus, You

see him with a buzz cut. You said that dude looks hot. You really recognize him very slowly. How do you change the signal you're sending to him? Well, these are my trade secrets. I don't serve them. You've already used them. You're getting you know, you're very happily married. Help the audience. No, no, no, that's that's my own game. That's my private game for sure. I mean, how how you you let someone know? I mean, I knew he

would loved me. Of course, we've established I loved you so well before he met you, So eventually I was just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together, we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay, what advice would you give to someone where the other person's uh as ires are not as clear? I have no advice to give, because I think it's different for

every single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket rulest there because each man and each woman and each any any person of any gender, we're all made up so differently, and so what what is seen as a as um a dance between the two is is so unique to each relationship. I think you know, there's no blanket advice i'd give anyone for fear of that biting

me in the ass. You sound like more of the type person would give advice and then when they came back to it and said it did work, so well, you know, what the hell do I know that's true? I mean, I mean I I the older I get, the less advice I want to get. And I feel the exact same way. Twenty years ago, I'd tell everybody how to live their lives. Now I'm not sure that I know what I'm talking about, and I know I have no idea what I'm talking and they say and

they're not gonna listen to me exactly. It's like, why why ruin the relationship? But why waste the bread? Right now? The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much with the truth, is we have a guy who shy and he speaks to his guitar, and he feels, if I become successful musician, I will be able to have a girlfriend, of sex life, etcetera. That's men on the road. It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera.

But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The men went on the road. There were groupies. As David lee Ros said, I know on the road and I can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily by whom I want to get laid by, but every night of the week. As a woman being on the road, what were your desires and your feelings in your own experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know,

being like number one all over the world. I was all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country. I was being lauded and applauded and and everything was tick tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go back to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop with what is tixie boo? Ticken tyboo just means you know what ticken e boo? Right, Okay, you can just hear from from hearing it. But did you go back to your hotel room happy or did you say, God,

I'm on the cover every magazine. Here, I am alone. I probably went home back to my hotel room. How to wank? There is nobody around, you know, But I have to believe being that famous, invisible, men would try to make themselves available. No, No, men were terrified of me. Absolutely. You're a band on the road, which means you're going to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a lot of men there. None of those men starts not

what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again, that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too, how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And no man really has been so I had to deal with that. Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations, but the majority of men don't know how to deal with a woman who's more successful than they are, and you know, has has has a credit card and can

get herself out of any situation. She doesn't need the night in shining Armor to come save her. They don't know what to do with that. In your marriage, are you the one? Do you wear the pants and the family, so to speak. No, I actually we have a pretty balanced So you decide you're going to go to dinner, who chooses the restaurant changes every day? Okay, So I mean I'm not being funny, I'm not being flippant. I was interressed with you. So it's balanced in the relationship.

So once you get over the threshold, you're willing to be equal to the man as opposed to be dominant with the man. Well, I'll be dominant if I feel like this situation is not being taken care, of course, that's that's something different. So if we go back to this situation, you're on top of the world, you're and there are no um boyfriends at the time, do you start to hit on them? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. Some people say you're you you're flirting

outrageously with him, and I'm like, no, I wasn't. Well, there's one thing to flirt outrageously and say I'm having fun, but I would never left this guy in my hotel room. Correct, there's another thing to say, I'm having fun if the

guy is fun and it might go somewhere. To be honest, I'm not I can't I don't really have any memories of meeting somebody that was really interested in so because the pickens were slim or damn slim, and my standards were high, I mean to be honest, And again I'm signing like a sort of a sort of old maid in that I have never wanted to just have sex with someone just to have sex, because I just think, statistically wise, there's very few people that are going to

make my experience worth it. So in general, I'm attracted to the brain first, and then then then I'm like, Okay, sex could be interesting, Let's see where this goes. But it's usually brain first. I'm never like, oh he's hot, I'm going to like go back to my you know. That's you know, in my limited experience. That's women feel the same way. They have millions of women that I know who are who will fux somebody for just sex. Millions of them, I think so. But isn't that they're

the lower percentage? I don't know. Actually I would challenge the idea. I think that's what we've been led to believe. It's like affairs, you know, supposedly, you know, more women are having an affairs than men. What does that tell you. I think you know what it tells you. I know, I'm only put myself in the ground a little bit more. I think it'll do a great degree. That's men who are not servicing is a terrible world. I don't mean in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not paying attention

to the woman. And the woman has opportunities. Well, women are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as they get older, they get better at doing that, and then it seems lose their confidence. It's it's a sort of flip of the way we are that we developed that the way we educate. I think women as they get older, get smarter, and they're like, oh, wait a minute, what a con this has been, you know, And men suddenly realize, oh, I'm not quite the dominant, gorgeous stud I thought I was.

If their confidence drops, women's confidence rises. And so there you have men break up and they go hang with their budge and they watch ESPN and they drink beer and they don't even talk about it. Women women don't. Women rally around each other and can live without a man. It's the men who are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But that's the men who are weak, they don't want to admit it. No, it's not that they're weak. I mean, I think again, they're just not given the tools. They're

not educated. They're not sow on how to age, they're not sown how to live and have bigger women are taught how to survive in ways that men are, and vice versa. You know. So this is what I'm talking about goes back to what I'm saying earlier. We need to change the way we educated. We can all have happy health. I agree with better taught to go. I'll be hunters, but that's about it. It was funny you should say that because I suddenly had this sort of

realization very recently. I was watching a TV show and it was about the Vikings and and men were getting sent off to you know, to fight, and it was brutal, and I was like, God, I think those those times, it must have been horrendous. And then it made me think of all the men that get sent off to

this day into war. And men are sort of like they are educated to to shut something off in themselves so that they will be willing to go and fight for their countries, you know, and get into these terrifying situations that never really happens to women. Not really again, sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of women in the services and and so on, But you know, sort of over the last few centuries, men have been taught a certain way so that they mindlessly going and and fight to their deaths.

And and we that that society has changed slightly since then. And I think it's also changed because I grew up in aror of a draft where it kind of cross classes, where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best,

to be honest, I don't. I really really fight that idea of all every fiber of my being, because like I come from a family where my dad marks everything out of tain It drives me insane. To me, I feel like life is always surprising. You can go like you can go to Paris and have a dreadful experience hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's the best, it's just what I guess is the most

enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point, I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience, And even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall, I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To go to the cities, to countries and see how other people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly

fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you the type then that he's a fool? Of course, my question is he also was staying up all night developing film in the film era, so the band could wake up and see the photos from the night before, so it wasn't totally his fault. But there a lot of people they go, they go from the bus to the hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything.

Are you the type of person who takes advantage in these very I try? I try always to get up early, like you know will have traveled over you know, from I don't know, New York to to South after Cape Town for a random example, and we've had no but I'll still get up after two hours to go on SAFARTI because I know this will never happen to me again.

You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing, We've been traveling all night, but you get the opportunity to go to the Blue mosque, you know, and have your mind blown. It's just I feel it's really important, you know too, to take advantage of those moments where you really get shown so much and it does shift your perspective so much. Absolutely. One of the problems you know with America is people haven't been anywhere, and I think it's the greatest I mean,

tuck very minor things. You go to a European or you know, UK, it's finally coming to America. They have the dual flush toilet. I mean, that's a good idea. Okay, they just recently come to America where they can change the price of the gas electronically. These are not major things, but everybody in the United States to give it's oh

where we are, it couldn't be any better. Where It's much better in many other places, of course, but then there's also incredibly beautiful, precious things about at the US, which you know, for me as an immigrant, you know, coming here, my entire career is down to America. Like I will never forget that. I have deep, deep love

for this country. And a lot of people in the rest of the world take swings of America for a lot of different reasons, you know, But I always describe America as being in a really innocent like everybody's like, no, it's just vulgar. No, it's not vulgar. It's innocent because what of the population has never traversed outside the national boundaries.

And like you say, everyone believes that they're the best in America, that they've got the best country, and and you know, one would argue that's not the case anymore, you know, And and that is a great sadness. But also, hey, welcome to the rest of the world. Were exactly, we're all the same, We're just all trying to figure everything out.

And um, I think that what's what is both awful about the Internet, but what's also so great about it is it will and it is slowly impacting America and changing the way people think and everyone is becoming a bit more educated about other ways of life. It doesn't feel like that right now for obvious reasons. But I think ultimately, over the next thirty forty fifty years whatever, that America is going to change all for the better. Now the thirty years you have left, what would you

like to accomplish or do? I want to continue to travel as much as possible. That is my biggest desire. And not to lose my curiosity. I want to remain curious if I and to keep and to try and nurture courage. I think that looks like that. I will continue to try new things that I will try and and meet people and without judgment, you know, and try and listen, try, and I want to be a better listener.

That's that's a big thing for me. I like, I want to be in service rather than serving myself, you know. And I'm in an industry. What I've done nothing but served myself for twenty old years, you know. And I want to change that as much as possible as my life progresses. I want to be in service. Okay, I call you up or I text you and I say let's go to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh, we're gonna go. I want to take you to this restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that.

Are you say, I'm into it as a new experience. Oh yeah, and I've eaten some terrible things. But I always want to try. I don't want to be that person who's scared to try because I've discovered incredible things that I didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but just looking at the situation in general, have you ever said yes to something and said, oh, that was a big mistake. Yes? Do you remember anything? Yes, Space Mountain and Disneyland. I said yes, and I went on it,

and I wished I hadn't said yes. I really hated it. Well, the funny thing about it is I didn't go on Space Mountain. That's horrible. Until you know, sometime like then in this century, okay, you know, they'd say Disneyland is the happiest place on Earth, and no, it's the most miserable place there. It's a place where I would never need go. I like to do everything in life once just so I could talk about it. And so I wrent there. It was greater or it sucked whatever. But

I was not a Disneyland person. But I went with my nephews and we went on Space Mountain. I'm not a big roller coaster person. Whatever, But the fact that the roller coaster was underground, you know, because most of the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say, see, I didn't find Disney Disneyland Rights disappointing. Far from it. I really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find it the happiest place on Earth. I found it one of

the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed in children's farts the entire time I was there. I hated standing for an hour and a half for a two minute, right, you know. But when I go into Space Mountain, I knew that it was like the pre move Right. Everyone was like, this is going to blow your mind, and I I honestly thought I was gonna have a heart attack. Really, yes, it was awful. That's one thing. I remember. They had a they're still there. They have something called the Revolution.

Maybe they're gonna tear it downs. Original roller coaster at Magic Mountain and the seventies. It was the first roller cuature that went upside down. So I remember getting on. It would go up a little hill, gonna curve and then you and your theorical then you were You're there. I am so freaked up. You can't get off. It's like you're there. It's like there's nothing I can do. But I like being on the little teacups. I feel safe. Vomit cups really, oh man, those are really That was

one of the original rides. But m music drove the culture in the era that you grew up in an iron, I do not believe music drives the culture at this particularly do I just think there's no common music driving the entire culture, if that makes any sense. I think music has got a big an influence now than it arguably ever. But it's all, you know, fractionalized or what's the word I'm looking. You know, I get what you're saying. You know, they're all these different niches. Why do you

think it has as much. I mean, if I go back to the sixties, a rock star would say something and be on the radio and it would change thinking in the role to general. I don't think that happens. No, it doesn't have the same cultural impact because everyone's not listening to the same one artist. You know, when Elvis was singing, we were all listening to Elvis. You know, not you you were too well, I was too young. But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay,

but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed to get here. So I take my chances with the alpha female whenever I can get up. Feel respect. Okay. So in any event, you're you're saying that it's not driving the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well, single artists and bands are not. They don't have the same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play

at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I mean that sounds like such a copipe. I really do. And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like sort of of curating my listening habits recently, I've just put my I've just turned my phone on and put it through this system and just listen to anything from my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary. I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well,

there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said, I listened to classical, I listened to j azz, I listened to blues, I listen to Paula, I listen to rock, I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen

to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like if you go on Spotify or any of the services and you listen to the new music and they break it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty country tracks, fifty damce tracks, and if you listen to fifty, you'll find one or two good ones, and you start to get overwhelmed. Yeah, it's overwhelming, you know, and a lot of times you'll find something go, you'll reach it. Is anybody else I like this as anybody else like

the there's no coherence to the culture. That's true. But is that about then? I'm not that's about I think to do. No. I hate being told what to do. But it goes back to what we're talking about earlier in terms of argument. We live in an era where everyone has their own facts in their own lives, which is almost a tower of Babel society. And even with television where in the golden age of television and is there are a lot fewer television shows than there are

music shows. But even then we'll find well, we can't talk because we didn't see the same shows, we didn't see the same movies. Okay, so there's no community fiber No, that's true. But we don't know yet where that's going to go. That might go somewhere fantastic, we just don't know yet. Well, I think I believe it's going to go along the lines of Americ at large, which is

winners and losers. I believe we have an inherent desire to be with other people, like you talk about going out to breakfast or dinner whatever, or to be able to say, oh I saw that show. It sucked, okay. And therefore there's a lot of rabble rousing from people who are not successful. But the reasons if you look at the movie business, like and I don't go to the movies. First of they don't start when you want them to start. And I have so much I don't have any time, and I have so many options at

home on the flat screen. But if you look at the weekly grossers, you know, Black Panther well far eclips all the other movies combined. And I think part of the people say, oh, yeah, I saw that good bad. Otherwise, I think there's a desire for community. There is a desire for community. But at the same time, I do believe in the principle of evolution. I have faith in evolution that evolution will sort this out sooner or later.

I mean, every generation moans about the new generation that's in place, you know, And I feel that we always harp on about how things once were, forgetting the evolution has always like I have better life than my mom did, and my mom has better life than my granny did. And I have to assume that my all my friends kids will have a better life than and than we did. And I think that's a great thing. And I think we can all sort of like pick over the carcass of what once was, or we can embrace what is.

And I want to be and what is I'm going to embrace what is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay, in my generation, I know a lot of people are not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers, their parents had a lot. But you're you're talking about economics though, right, you're talking about house and money, okay, and you're talking about rights, freedoms, well, knowledge, I would argue me, gay people can get married in America, which is wonderful. I gret a lot of that to MTV.

People saw a rainbow of colors there and therefore they were, you know, there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in a country. By the way, there isn't less racism. But that's a whole lot of I would look back to that. I believe in America there is less racism, but you have a very vocal mind party who was afraid of losing. I have to disagree. You're talking from a very white,

privileged position. Now I'm saying that if you go back decades and you saw an interracial couple walking down the street, chances are there to be sneers or comments. I believe there are less and now we're all victims of our own experience. And I'm not saying there's not racism, there's not anti semitism, there's not sexism. But I believe, but I believe as a result of media, there's a certain level of enlightenment. I view as a result of the

economic disparity. Okay, the people who have been left out, whether through their own faults or not through room fault, have started to rebel around the world Brexit, Trump, etcetera. And it's focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has come racism. And I don't want to comment on the rest of the rule because I'm not as much of an expert, but in America, I would believe pound for pound there's less racism and less homophobia than there was.

Not that there isn't very vocal racism and homophobia, but I think we're you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who used to be the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he had his insane show, And he's not a stupid guy. He says, the liberals always win in the end, Okay, all the things that were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera,

they're happening. Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well, I don't even notice where to start without to be honest, we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the penal system here in America. No have you seen back. But you're making the point that a whole generation of African Americans were wiping up by putting them in gails. It's not what you're making. I agree totally. You know

that there's a lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing for them. But what I'm saying is that I believe that generally it's gone. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again, it's complex, isn't it. There are some people who get left behind this, but generally speaking, our generation has it better than the previous generation. And then there are parts of our society who are being left behind, and that's blacks and and people of color aggressively so, but it's

also white. I don't want to make this, as you know, white apologists, but just to illuminate the point, this is how Trump got elected. There are people as a result of the economic changes they in globalization, they don't have if you're left behind. And and then the crazy thing, same thing with Brexit. Their solution is let's chet back to the past, and the past is never coming back. But that's Trump's approach to It's it's very like I just did never believe you can look back. I think

you must always look forward to you know. Well, the scary thing is I mean I certainly lived through the sixties with the Vietnam War and the draft, but since then in America, this is the first time where every you're addicted to the news and it's uh, it's just like when the wall fell, When the wall fell in Berlin and you were there, we were of the illusion

in America the other doctor, democracy will reign. And now you have booting, you know, assassinating spies in a different country, and we have you know, you know, we have the head of the country for life in China. It's you know, the world is going to it. You know, it's going to exactly as my dad says. And I actually feel like I have to cling onto this analogy, which is, you know, evolution happens whether we like it or not. It's just what occurs when you leave humans on a

planet for long enough, they will evolve. And there's always moments he said, it's just like it's like tight, it's like title shifts, you know, you it's the type gets sucked back for a moment, and then it searches forward, and it searches for further forward than it did before. And that's that's always what my dad says to try and calm me down when I'm getting his terrecal and full of desperate depression about the way the world is turning.

He's like, it's will turn back, generally speaking, as I used to be a terrible pessimist, and then something turned around when my mom died for me, like I was like a bolt from the blue I had. I was forced to change my thinking because if I hadn't changed my thinking, I would have died of grief. And and I I just decided me. I made a decision that the light because my mom had a lot of light

in her. She was a real people pleaser, my mom, because she'd been a norphan and she wants people to love her and like her, and so she brought light into every situation. And I used to annoy me, you know, as a moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me. And then when she died, I realized that light is gone. You know, people would say to me at my mom's funeral, you know your mom always you never left your mom feeling worse. You always left your mom feeling better than

you did before you bumped into her. And I just made this decision that I had to do something with my mom's light. I couldn't let it go and dissipate into nothing. That's I had to hold a bit of her light in me, and I used that to change the way I approached my life. It sounds really okay, but it's really true, and it was quite that conscious. It was conscious. Yeah. I was just like, I need to change the way I I don't want people to leave me feeling worse. I don't want to be a

vibe crush. I don't want people to feel yucky around me. And you know, we're all aware of what that's like to bump into somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know, whether they're irritable, whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether they only talk about themselves. I don't know, there's a million one reasons why we don't like being around people. Yeah, and I was just like, I want to be a person in the world that makes people feel good again.

I go back this word of being in service, Like I just I want to take my Mom's light and give it to someone else so we can spread these particles of my amazing mother. When you talk about service, that's twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Oh? God, no, no? And you never had a problem with alcohol problem? Okay, that's not to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol. I had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely

the type person who couldn't have only one. If you want to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't call me you want to have the night of your life or attempt? You know. Oh boy, I can tell story after story, and then then there's you know how I, and then how I finally stopped and I did not stop saying, Oh I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy, and uh, excuse me. I want to know more. This is a much longer story, but I'll give you just

the tip of it. Yeah, give me the crucial. So this was nineteen This is a long time ago, one going into two, and I had been stopped for drunk driving on the night that John Lennon got died. John and Jack shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself. But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to d u Y and there's a condition with that where you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink. And in the time it took for that case to come to court, I've been stopped once again on the

four oh five in that point. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to this week's edition of the Bob Left Sets podcast. My guest this week is vocalist extraordinaire lead singer of Garbage, Shirley Manson. Shirley, back out here. Okay, you're from Scotland. We are really Scotland ignorant here. Okay, what's it like

growing up in Scotland. Well, you know, at the time, it didn't feel so fantastic, but looking back on it now I realized what a privilege it was, you know, because it's a small island and it was a time I was I was born in sixty six, so I grew up in the seventies and it was at a time when the British government actually paid for education, They put money into it. We all had government run schools and they were and they were well funded, so had a great education. I had. I came from a family,

three children. My mom and dad loved each other until death did they part? And I think, now knowing what I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the younger generations. I mean, the only thing I haven't been to Scotland, but there was that movie and I can't remember there was a famous movie maker talking about the ice cream War in do you know that? Was that Danny Boyle? I thing? God, I can't remember. But in any event, where did you actually grow up in Scotland? How do you?

How do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay? Ed okay? And what did your father do for a living? My father was a university professor, really and what did he teach? He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics and animal breeding, poultry breeding as well. He would come home for dinner. Would he talk about that? Very rarely? I mean he he as we got older, he would talk about the genetic program because they were his sort of university cloned

Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if you remember that, but so that was his faculty that really. Yeah, So he started to talk up to us about genetics and we were so bored. We can you know? Okay, so if I take you out on the ranch with the animals, you're as clueless as I am. Well, maybe not quite as clueless as you, Bob. We got the humor going at this point in time. Okay. And did your mother work outside the house? My mother sort of eventually as

we were growing up, when we were teenagers. She's she became a medical reception as she looked after a bunch of doctors. But she really was pretty much a housewife, which is a terminology that's thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete. But she she was clear. She called herself a housewife, right, I guess you know now they say, you know she works, but she works in the home. But okay, so where are you in the hierarchy of the middle child? The real messed up one the middle of three? And who

else is a boy or a girl? All three girls? All three girls. I'm a middle child too, so sorry, Okay. My older sister she believes you can conquer the world, and my younger sister is the baby could always cry to get out of this, and I was kind of lost in the middle. I had exactly the same experience. It's really I was married to one who was also a middle kid. I wonder whether that was part of the connection, because you're kind of overlooked. You feel you're overlooked.

I don't think you actually are, but that's how I think I perceived it. And I also got hamly done clothes all the time. I never got new clothes when I was growing up. I was always my sister's clothes, and by the time I had worn through the set clothes, my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment. I didn't have that problem because my older and younger siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what

you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you kid of you know obeys orders? For the first sort of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I was an incredibly devout student, and I, you know, had a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested in religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet, pretty uh, sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go

to public school? Or did you go to Catholic school. Well, it's a good question, because we call public public schools private school. We went to government funded had the government funded schools. But you had a strict Catholic family. I did not. I came up in a Protestant family. My dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't help my No. No, no, no, you can imagine. I can't imagine. That kind of messed me up good too. So yeah, okay, but you were a big believer. I was a huge

believer about today you believe her today. I'm a nonbeliever now. And what was the transition? How did you decide that there wasn't a little man in this guy who was deciding whether you've been noaughty or nice? Well, it started off with just a sort of sudden observation of the people in in our church that we went that we went to. I noticed that they did not adhere to the principles that were being, you know, sermonized, And I

started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All the people seemingly were anti abortion, have had an abortion themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy. So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I, having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying

attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking, I started flirting with you know, seft drugs. I became interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater and a band. A little bit slower in America, it's kind of like the Little Rascals if you know those Saturday morning car There's a truan officer and if you skip school, they're going to track you down. So you're skipping school and your father's in the educational system. Was

anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well not at first, and actually it was my dad who busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers didn't really notice because of the way that our system worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations, so you were there when they called the roll call, and then I would just go home. But my my, my house was like jammed up against the playground of the school, so I could just get home to my

bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for skipping school until you had your father find out. He came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know why else we were up to. You went absolutely mental, and he called the head master and he doped me in. He was like, my child this year, she should be at school. I'm sending it in to see you right now.

And he sent me to the head master and I got I can't remember what happened, but I got well royally punished. I had to do like after school punishment and all that. Well, did it set you on a straight course or did you continue to diverge from the straight and earra I continue, even at fifty one, to diverge from the straight and now, Well, it's kind of funny. It's hard to diverge from the straight and narrow. We live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly

lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think, and now there's total group thinking, and if you feel otherwise, you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that

does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But I was really lucky and that I a very strong minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I would fight against him over and over and over again for years, to the point where I learned to hold my own in an argument. If he didn't, you know, agree with me, that was cool. If I didn't agree with him, it was cool. He was He was really fair that way, and so I just learned to have to develop my

own system of ideas and beliefs. Do you think he was doing that to inculcate that behavior in yourself or do you think he was really rigid and you were just a rebel? Neither of the bob. I think he is quite rebellious my dad. Is he still with us, Yes, he's still with us, and he's eighty one, and he's very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker, and I think he enjoyed being challenged by me because he

often of course, when you have young children. He would browbeat me easily for years and years and years, and then event chually as I became a little more skilled at arguing in my late teens. He I think he enjoyed it was like it was a sport for him, and it actually is a little bit of a sport for me now, like I can argue with anyone. I don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore.

It's really when you when you give a contrary opinion, it's like spinal tap person. Look, no, my amp goes to eleven. I mean, I don't want to do it for my own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word might be. It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out the issues and makes me think afterward. But today everyone thinks they have the answer. They can't see two different sides of the coin, and they're very you. You look like the curmudgeon when you go out there and you

disagree with people. Well, I think there's a couple of factors at play. I think some people feel that they are not they don't have conviction necessarily and what they believe. Like, no, I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction. I believe really strongly and what I believe. And um, I think some people get shaken when you disagree with them and or they feel like they're losing an argument if you even challenge the argument. And they've got this

some weird idea about how they must win. They must win. Society's put all this pressure and must be winners. You can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser. I mean that's really well described. But will you change your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down and I say, hey, life evolved. It's like only in Washington, d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back. Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister,

it was how much younger. It's two years younger than me. She's down in London doing what she works for a photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um, and my big sister is two years older than me. It's exact, and like my favor we've got a common here, man, I feel your pain. Brother. But my big sister, she works in She was an intensive care nurse practically our whole career, and now has has sort of semi moved

into health education. She teaches nurses. Now, are they married or in relationships? My oldest sister is in a relationship. My youngest sister is married with two kids. Okay, but you've never been married, right? I am married? You are married. I guess I was unaware. How long have you been married? Eight years? Eight years? And is this your only marriage? No, this is my second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay,

so you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's kind of a black and white you know, yes or no question. Yeah, I didn't get past high school. I sort of flunked out in my last I should have stayed on for another year and I didn't have flunked out and I got really bad examination results, and my parents were really disappointed in me, and there was a silence over the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here the crisis would be, if you drop out of high school,

you have to go to work. That is correct, My dad said that to me, said, okay, you're you know, you've crapped out of high school. You need to go get yourself a job. And did you did? And what was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop, a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge. And how long did that last? Five years? Five years? And any upward any any upward mobility or you're just the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I

don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted. I started off. I started off as a sales clerk what we call the shop assistant, and then I was demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote, I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't are they didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay, you're smoking dope, drinking what are you doing? I was doing a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice,

and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and okay, going back. Was their music in your house growing up? Yeah, there was a lot of music in my house. My mom was a sort of semi amateur singer. Um semi professional. Should I see? She sang with us a swing band called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and then she used to sing for like weddings and concert parties at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob, you have a very long I can't believe my legs

reach that far. The first time this has ever happened here on the podcast. But um, I noticed I touched before. I didn't even notice that time. But when she was professional before you were born, how serious was that? Not particularly serious? I mean, my mom got bless her. She didn't have a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing she did she considered very serious. But she was a good singer, and she loved music, and she introduced me to music, and my love of music comes from her. Okay,

so would she play records in the house? What kind of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald, Nina Simon st von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she loved Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show Too was a similar thing. Growing up. My mother played them all the time. But and she is deceased, My my mom too, right now, my mother is alive. My father's dead, been dead for twenty five years. My mother's

ninety one. But your mother, based on what you said earlier, your mother is no longer with, no longer with How long ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay? Is your father ever got involved in another relationship? Yes, he has not. Is he a serial data or is that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women who's been interested in and is pursued with great passion and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple of times. And so what do you What does it

feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I was cool with it because I knew my dad loved my mom and I knew that, you know, there was nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted my dad to have happiness, so it didn't bother me. It creeped me out a wee bit, you know, thinking about my dad having an erection was just too much there. But I was cool with him having fun in his life. I wanted that for him. But my younger sister had she wrestled with it the hardest. She she she found

it difficult to accept. Well, how long after the passing of your mother. Did he get started very quickly? And was your mother sick or was it a sudden death? Yeah, my mom was sick. She had a very rare form of dementia, which is called Picks disease um and it was very aggressive and sort of took her out the game in about eighteen months. My mother's you know, is on is on that excursion. So I speak speak with her,

and she'll go on and on. But whatever I tell her today, the next day, it'd be like we didn't even discuss. You See, my mom's disease wasn't like that. It was a a different kind of it was. She sort of became just physically difficult to operate in the world. She always knew who I was. She never didn't know we were. No. Like I said, it was very aggressive, an unusual form of Picks disease, and that the doctor in our hometown nobody had ever had an incident of

this particular type of disease. So she was young. She was sixty nine when she was diagnosed, very young. And so how long did she go undiagnosed? Well, here's the other issue in our families. I knew there was something wrong with my mom. My family told me I was crazy. Well, I have the same thing with my father got canceled.

We were having to be in Mammoth Lakes, which is a ski area about four hours from Los Angeles, and I went out with my father to pick up a pizza, and my father's for the whole half hour waiting for the pizza, just had his head in his hand, and he was coming And I came back and I told my mother, oh, you know something wrong with our flashes. Oh, he just had a physical. He's fine, he's fine. And a week later they found out the cancer. I'm so sorry. Well it was a long time ago. At this point,

it doesn't it's always painful to lose your loved ones. Well, my father I had at seventy and when he died, I was not quite forty, and I thought, oh, that's a pretty good run. But now I say, wow, that's really young. Really, so there's music in the household. At what point do you start to sing or play yourself. I was playing really young because my mom and dad got me into piano lessons on singing in an ac choir. So that was around about seven years old. Did you practice,

did I? No? No, no, I don't think the piano lessons too, But the practicing was the weakling. I found it very hard to practice anything, and that has continued throughout my entire life. I'm very lax about rehearsing and practicing and and actually being a good student in that regard. But yeah, I was singing and playing by about seven, and that just continued through my life. My school picked me out to like learn the violin, the clarinet, playing

the school orchestra. Can you read music even at this late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now, you don't forget that people claim to forgotten that, Billy Joel whatever. But as someone who could read music basically, then occasion I'll sit down at the piano and then I look at the bass cliff and I go, there's no way. See, it's funny you should say that because it's always the bass cliff cliff that is the hardest one to remember. But if you just play for a wee bit, it

comes back. So you're playing it at this point, do you ever have an light bulb go off and say this is what I'd like to do from my life? Never? So what changes you know? This? This is a bit of a long on boding story I've told a million times, but nothing ever changed, Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled from pillar to post literally as my entire That is certainly a Scottish expression. No one in America is going to say pillar to post. Okay, well, but you get

the express, the idea. I know what you said, but you know, I just haven't heard the expression. But nothing in my life has ever been planned. I have my My entire career has been made up of stumbling from one place to the next and no plan, no real solid ambition. Although my dad claims that that's not true. But I don't remember having any major ambition to do much except be a ballerina. That's what I really burned to do. Then I couldn't do that because I got

too tall and I hurt my ankle. So then I wanted to be an actress. This is it? What age? What age? Do you hurt your ankle? I was. It's a good question. Eleven. Then you want to be an actor? Do you act on that? Do you actually act? In school places? I had a drama teacher that took great interest in me and got me out into Edinburgh. You theater outside of the school as well. She encouraged me to like audition for drama school, and so and so forth.

I didn't get into drama school. And that's summer that I didn't get into drama school. I got approached by this guy that I had met at Edinburgh Theater who needed a keyboard player in his band. And because you know, I've been living in l a long enough, doesn't just happen. So how was he aware that you played the keyboard? Well, I think he maybe asked me. He was very interested

in me sexually. Okay, that's straightforward. He was more interested in me, I think, sexually than he was by musical skills. But he knew I played pianos so and he knew he could lure me into his band to play keyboards. But you have to say yes. I didn't have to see yes. You did say yes. I did. So what was your inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been rejected from drama college, so I had nothing else to do, and so for want of some entertainment in my life,

I joined the band. And this was at what age fifteen or sixteen? Okay, so you go and you have this band, what kind of music you play? Well? You would call it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals were playing? Was on the hip parade? They were originals. I can't ask me if they were on the hip three. That is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I think so they were originals. And in the United States, which is my frame of reference, it's very hard to

get work being an upstart band playing originals. So did you get gigs with this band? We did get gigs. You know. We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland, which had all music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast. Became quite large fish in a very small poem. Well that would you know, seem to say that you were good? We were good? So why were you good? We were really unique, really original, Like we were like no other band I have ever seen in my life. I mean,

we were a right bunch of Motley crew. Um. We were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did you ear a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes? I did. Okay. How long did that last? I don't know, about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended did the band break up? The band? The band survived, So how long did the band go on? For? Ten years?

And the name of that band was Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie. Okay, Well return to this conversation with Trulie Manson of Garbage in a moment. You're listening to the Bomb Left Sets podcast, recorded at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Each week, I interview a new guest and dive into their lives and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe, rate and review the show. Please also check out some of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson

of the band Heart and famous skateboarder Tony Hawk. You can hear them all on tune in the Apple podcast or your podcast player of choice. And now more with Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie, are you for five years you still working in the shop? You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stop working in the shop, are you living off the money from the band or are you have to get another

day job. I'm living off my day job. Okay, but after they after working in the shop, excuse me, then I barely existed off money from the band, barely. Okay, still living at your parents? Hum, still living at my parents. You know, in America things have changed. But in my era, once you got out of high school, parents said you gotta get out of the house, and of course you could afford to live somewhere on a minimum wage. Now

it's just the opposite. I can't afford to living where I'm minimum wage, and people want their kids, and people do move back. So what did your parents think, You're getting older and older still living in their house. My mom wanted me so there was It was never even discussed. Really, so she did made all your meals, clean your clothes. No at that point, I mean I was an adult by that point, but no, she she wanted her children amongst her for as long as she could possibly have them,

and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're in the band for ten years. That's a long period of time and it takes a long time to make it. But at that time, do you have a fantasy of this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it. I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean in retrospect. I really did love it, and I wasn't looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down, and I was like, we're never going to be rich, We're never going to be hugely successful. But I really

love doing what I get to do. And we traveled a lot, so it was the first time I got to go to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany, go to Holland. I mean, I went all over the place with this band. So that was exciting to me. And it was enough that of course begs the question which you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at a relatively low level, and what's it like being a

woman on the road. You know. I didn't really think about it too much because in my very first band it was very eglitarian, and the Scots in general are pretty like, even in a funny way, in a different way that men and women are much more sort of equal in Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not entirely sure why, and this is the first time that's ever come out of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking. But it never was an issue. Sexism was never in

my mind an issue. However, looking back on it too, I wasn't one of the writers in the band. It was two male members who kept all the writing to themselves and never invited anybody else into the right dynamics. So they were the pirate seat. And I just didn't care about money back then, and I didn't care about power back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms. I just was having fun and that was enough really, So there were no ultimate goals down the road. None.

It's kind of funny there. It's a fascinating thing because there's a book called You Just Don't Understand, and it sounds like a self help book written by this PhD. Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says, men are all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm trying to rise to the top where women are about the community. Like if a guy loses his job, he loses his identity where she would say a woman. And of course

there're exceptions to all this. Well, this is where I am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow, and I'm just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I mean again, like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations right in this exceptions to all the rules, but in this case, yeah, I think I had been taught from a very early age basically just to be in the clan system, and wherever your seat was in that system was your seat.

I just accepted my seat. Now that's changed as I've gotten older, I started to fight for my own seat and the seat that I want. But back then I was very sort of submissive, I guess. So the band goes on for ten years, what to what degree is it successful by worldwide standards? Well, we got signed by a large label. We got signed by My Records and Capital Records, and we started bounced between those two labels, and we've got a big advance, but that all went

to the writing partners. I didn't see any of that. But we did get a big advance, and there was a great buzz on the band, and we charted very briefly, um, which was enough to sustain us to keep trying and trying and trying for years. How many records did you make in that under that moniker? Well, I think I did four, but after you left they did more. They did another two. I think. Okay, so you did those four and then you made a solo record under not

your own name. Correct, Although the so so called solo record was really just a recalibration of Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, which was my first band. I E, the lead singer of Goodbye Ms. Mackenzie, stepped back and I took over lead vocals because we had gone to Berlin to make a record Berlin. That's funny. I know what you're talking about, but my brain had a percolade Verson sorry, excuse me, why Berlin this? I don't know what year this was in? What is it with the UK? I mean, you know,

Actung Baby? You two went to uh Berlin, went to Berlin? Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went to Berlin, and therefore everybody else wanted to go there, And interestingly enough, Acting Baby was being recorded enhance the studios at the same time that we were there, and so we were all there when the wall came down, and it was we were literally there when the wall We were literally was that like crazy? Literally somebody just called us something went

where are you right now? We're like, we're in the studio. It's like you need to get to the wall there going it down right now? There was that quick. I have a piece of the wall in my home in Scotland, and so was there any once you went out to the wall. Was there any fear? No? Was it just excitement. Everybody was really excited and it was crazy. Well, when I went to Berlin, as you say, and you're there in the wall that still remains. On one side is the bunker. On the west side is where you know,

underground where Hitler was. On the other side you see where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let people live because they were afraid. The first they were using ropes to go over the wall. I mean, you get this really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean, when I first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie was still operating and we still had to cross through it to get to East Berlin, you know, and East Berlin had nothing.

You know, you go to East Berlin now and it's like any affluent part of Europe, but back then it was it was grim and there wasn't much there and people were really struggling. So when you're in Berlin record you would go to East Berlin with just to see

what's going on. But we went there to see what's going on there, and because of an incredibly hip kind of scene there, you know, because it was forbidden, and anything forbidden people won't right, So you make the record in Berlin because the lead singer was whacked or burned out or kicked out, not none of the above. Good Bye Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa to to record a record, and we just got lost in a frenzy of partying. And we spent our entire recording advance on having fun.

And then when we came back we had nothing to show for it. We hadn't we had no finished music or anything. I can't remember a good idea. So you blow all the money. Record companies don't like that. They hated that, so they dropped the band. But they held up like the head of the record label said, I love you. I think you're amazing, and you could do something on your own. Call me when you get your ship together. Okay, but you were not the lead vocalist

at good Bye, Mr Mackenzie. So why did this person? It was just your overall charisma that he felt. I don't know, I've never stopped to think about it other than he to me. You know, he was a really amazing person. Actually, his name is Gary Carr first, and he was I know, Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately, but he was. Uh. He had his own label, radio Active for m c A. And he was a big manager of the Talking Heads and exactly, but he was

in New York. How did he find you in London? Oh? Gods. We had opened Gobamis mackenzie had opened for for Debbie Harry's solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and he had met me there and just liked me. He's like, you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on. So he was always like, you're a star. So and and he just as a result, he then fell in love with Obamis Ckenzie signed Obamas Mackenzie and then when he dropped Obamers Ckenzie, he was like, I want you

let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how long did you go home before you say I'm ready to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized this was our only only solution, which was and and there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this doesn't work, I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't fit for anything. I didn't. I didn't have any calls. But I mean, you didn't say, Okay, this Gary thinks

I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not my style. I'm kitde loyal, okay, And I didn't want to leave my band in the shitter, okay. But all of a sudden, how do you become the singer? I don't know. I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and trying to remember our hazy memories. But I think just the whole band were like, let's put Shirley and lead vocals and will recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity.

And we all thought in practice we could do that. As it turns out, the male members of the band couldn't really hack the fact that I became the sort of focal point of the band, and and all the business started like Gary would run all business through me. Having been burned by good Mackenzie in Berlin, he was like, you're now in charge, you're responsible. I will only communicate with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened.

And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina Weymouth of the Talking Heads, because they were got his clients. And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye. I did, but Chris and Tina were producing. Chris now lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis. Yes, so fair Field, Connecticut. So how how do you are you? Were you happy with what transpired when those sessions? I was freaked out. But it was such an honor for

me to work with Christ and Tina. I mean, I can't even put that into words. It was so extraordinary for me, and I was I was proud of what we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point, you were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope? And so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to write the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like I said,

it was just a recalibration of goodby Ms mackenzie. Just in order to survive, we had me do the the take over the book, but the writing partnership remained the same. And the record comes out and then one and then we go on tour with Vic Chestnut and Life Chestnut. Yeah, that's quite a bill. That's an amazing bill. Actually, I fell in love with Vic and he fell in love with me, and we had a love fest. But well,

Vic Chestnut was in a wheelchair, he was he was apparent. Yeah, so I have to ask that you said we had a love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No, just admiration. Yeah, yeah, we just got we hit it off, you know. Okay, he committed suicide, very strange. Yeah, okay, so you go on tour that that bill. We go on to her and, um, the band is sort of falling apart already because the boys are just are not happy with the Paris structure at this point, which I

totally understand. Why should you understand? Well, I don't know, but I did, And but I was having fun. You know, I was going on to in America for the first time. I've never been to Americans sure, so to like travel all over America in a van was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life. You know, it's across the desert in a band. Well, the funny things I grew up in the seventies, that was the dream to

drive across country and now everybody flies. People don't even do that, which is sad because it really is an extraordinary way to see. So we did that, and then Rolling Stone picked up on us and sort of lauded us as like what one to watch And that was the final straw for my band. They were like, we're going home. We can't hack this anymore. And I kid

you not. That very day I had gotten a phone call from my future band saying, would you be interested in meeting up with Butch vig Um about singing on a possibly singing on one of like a project that he's working on. Literally the same day the bands were calling it quits. Yes, okay, are you still friends with the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now? I am, yeah,

but we have it was it was very difficult. It became very complex, and it was different called for Martin and the lead singer in particular, to like, I think process what had happened not only to him but to me too. But yeah, and now we're friends, and what do they do? There is still in a band that are called the Filthy Tongues. They are actually really great and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues. I don't know if they make a living, but there

are songwriters. They also work with Um the Skids. They just helped co write that last Skids record, the fourth anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And you know they do okay, and they're they're they're there. I'm proud of them. But they were resentful for a long yeah, just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay. So you get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well, now you already know you're being as a band into you,

so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah, I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god, because that would have been very difficult because I've already met Booch And and Garbage in London for a quick meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story, but I had met them in Don a few months to going on tour in America and we had liked each other and that and then the day that my

band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I was in Asbury Park in a hotel room, crying and I get the phone call from Duke Krickson saying, hey, are you interested in coming up for an addition? I was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay, but when you meet them in London, is it just social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out? And did you know that at that time? Okay? But I the way they had approached me was would you

send one song on booch Figs project. I was like, yeah, of course, I didn't feel that question my loyalty or anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious. I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition.

It was a disaster. But then we all went out to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like a house on fire, and we had such a laugh that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition. Um and something about I guess the way we had all gotten along sort of pushed us to have a second edition. And okay, so did they agree the audition sucked? They did? What was bad about it? Have you ever

seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay, well, shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their famous songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video radio Head singing one of their most famous songs, but then they've re recorded a different audio over the top of it, and it's like that, Well, that's what my audition was like. It was like shreds. So you couldn't I wasn't even articulating any words because I was so nervous and so

embarrassed that it was just awful. How long was it between the first and second auditions, I don't know, maybe three months, a long time. And during that period you've got nothing. I got nothing, Okay, so you go back in the second audition is great, It is okay. Now these are guys you know. Butch Vig had a huge stud vidio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity? But did any it ended up becoming an instant success.

But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever. In fact, I was convinced it was gonna burn badly because I was like, nobody wants to hear from a producer nobody ever has, So why will this work? Especially with me and that's the lead singer. It's going to be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there. We'll be back with more Shirley Manson of the band Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi,

this is Bob Left Sense. My guest come to the tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations with me. And if you ever want to see what they look like or where we take the show, check out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest, Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the audition three months later? How long after that do you go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless.

I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes out on Almo in America? Why is that? Well, we'd signed up to the young management that took care of Boots at the time were very smart and they were young, go getting women who had an idea that the Butcher's managers were women. Young women that's certainly you know, were they also managers of garbage. Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay, but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable

on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck two deals, one in the UK for the rest of the world and one for North America. And they were both independent record labels, and that was what we were very keen on pursuing because what was the record label in the UK. Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god, about eighteen months with a break for Booch to make a Soul Asylum record of all things. So is it

it's that slow? Because well, I think there was a lot of feet involved and Booch had a lot to lose, and so he was very, very meticulous, and I would say all of all of us were fearful of taking the wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity, I think, and so just took a ridiculously long time. And when the record is and you're living where when that time, I'm living in a weird hotel, okay, and the record is done, Now do you think we have something?

This is gonna work? Not really, but it's a hit. From the Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit. And the only other thing I could think like this from a couple of years later was Lantis more as Set also immediately a hit, and was that your sensation? Yes and no. I mean we were aware that it was taking off in a major way really fast, but there were always artists that were doing so much better than us, and our record labels, because they were small,

really relied on us to make money for them. We became this sort of like little machine that they sent out into the world to fund all their other artists who weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us, you know, no doubt or selling more records than you. Atlantis more Set is selling more than you. You know, we'se are selling more than you. You're losing. It was

constantly telling us how much we were losing. So as frustrating and awful as that process was, I'm actually quite grateful for it because it made us really like be humble. We were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the MTV era. You're all over television, you have a unique look. You probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately. There was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also made much you know, after years of relative obscurity, must

have made you feel very good on the inside. No, it made me feel rotten on the inside. I don't know why. I mean I I didn't have a lot of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention made me feel really self conscious. And I felt the whole time I was being judged and that I was failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis Moore set. I was just me, surely, Anne, you know, I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's

how I viewed it at the time. I mean that changed obviously, you know, my confidence grew and I got better at what I did as an artist. But right at the beginning, yeah, I just felt rotten. And so ultimately you tour and there's and the garbage continues. So what can you say about that experience of the late nineties and early twenty one century. I could sit here for hours and hours and hours and talk about it.

I mean it was extraordinary. It was an extraordinary time where alternative music ruled the roost, and that has never happened before. It's certainly never happened since. So I was. I am an alternative music lover. I'm not particularly turned on by pop or comeform tea of any sort. Like I love music that's sort of a little off kilter, you know, and that's just been my personal taste since

I was young. And so it was a moment where we were enjoying this insane success, global success, as were a lot of bands that I loved and enjoyed, and we were a community in some ways, you know. We all played these massive summer festivals and we all got to know one another. We played winter you know, in radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot of camaraderie and so it was a very exciting time for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists?

You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck, whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was no doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that the list was, you know, and we we all everyone was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean, it was. It was really wonderful. So why do you think that's scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop. That's a good question. I mean, I know why it became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think

the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really exploded because it was a new It was still new. I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it really was one of the the most courageous and creative in terms of modern production. You know, they really they sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street, was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of

authority and and and our society in a way. But is there any hope for so called alternative music. There's always hope, of course, Okay, well there's always hope. It's blind, you know, blind optimism. No, I don't think that is blind optimism, and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic

because I think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the irony is in the century really hasn't If you go back prior to the napstri era, meaning last century, every two or three years there was a whole new sound Okay, we had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle, which were eclipped by eclips by hip hop. It was then then it pop came after that. Now for the twenty one century, we've had popp pop and hip hop. Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been

almost twenty years. No, it's true. But I mean one could say though that hip hop has been the dominant sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again, it's not my preferred choice, but there's always artists that come along that catch my ear and excite me, whether it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's

always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're making a point about, you know, why alternative music has been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if I had the answer to that, I would be you know, I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here, You're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true,

but I mean it's very different. It used to be and under the old paradigm, you made the record okay, Then your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went to radio. They may or may not play it. They may or may not be a reaction. But you were either on the train or you're off the train. You said, hey, this works or it doesn't work. Today, a band of the Statue of Garbage can put out a record and it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst

its fans. What is that like being the maker of that music? You know, it's interesting because it obviously as an artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that. That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting. I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this, as has my bands. By the way, is get back into what I call a beginner's head space, a sort

of a place where you don't expect anything. And we've all been able to somehow get back to that space where we were before any of the success. So we now make music solely because we love each other. We have a good creative working relationship, We enjoy making music, and we enjoy touring it and our ambitions are not much bigger than that. And as a result, we've been able to still find joy in the process of doing

what we do. And we've been very lucky and that we've built upon that slowly and we have a very loyal fan base. And yeah, we were still able to be in the music scene, you know, Okay, but there's a lot these especially now more than ever. It's a business and when you go on the road, you have to feed everybody in the crew, everybody in the band has to be in the black at the end of the day. There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's

a pressure to sell as many tickets as possible. You must feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue. You go out, you say, well, they want to hear the hits? How much new music do you play? It's one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do you feel on stage and how do you deal with that?

I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're on stage, and if people don't like that, then so be it. That's not for me to say, but I feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well, you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come

with us in whatever. So if you have new music and you go on the road, how much of the new album will you play? The last record that we released, we played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage and you're watching, do you visibly see people get up and go to the bathroom? Of course? Now, we were on we were on tour last year and we it was summertime, you know, you're playing these festivals. And I looked out and there was a man on a sun lounger,

fast asleep throughout our entire set. So what you're on stage, what goes through your mind or through your heart? Well, when I was younger, that would have devastated me. Now I find it funny, and I realized, I'm like, I am here to do a job and connect with someone. It doesn't have to be everyone. You know, I'm not failing if I don't touch every heart in this audience. But my job is to get out there and tell my truth and hope that somehow I connect with one

or more people. And that's all I think about. I don't worry about being famous, I don't worry about being important. I don't worry about being a start. I really did not give a ship. I'd want to be a working musician because that's well I value. I value working musicians more than anything in the world. That's my gam Okay,

Two things. One two thousand five, Deaf Leopard and Brian Adams went on a tour where they played ballparks and they would alternate headlining, and I happen to see them in they were minor league ballparks in Minnesota, and at that time, the opening act on that date was Brian Adams.

He had had a set list and he's playing, but also he could bring children in for free whatever, and he was having this experience of the audience not being with him, and he literally, I was standing on stage literally, you know, looked at the band, literally took out the set list and ripped it in half and slowly brought the audience into the palm of his hand and worked them into a frenzy. It was a magical thing, you know,

something that only someone was very experienced doing it. Do you ever feel challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm gonna win them over All the time I go out feeling like it's like we are coming from a place of lack we are going to try and change in mind. I always feel like that, Yeah, okay, so now, how often does garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to us because we have such a bizarre set up. Well, the reason I'm asking what do you do with the

rest of your time? That's a good question. I have absolutely no idea set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay, you're an out of out of work tiger. Are you the type pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my bad members to record or go on the road or okay, but how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it be music, aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me At this point, I feel it's up to me to find joy in my life. It's not nobody else is going

to come and serve it to me. You know, you're painting a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay, and when you're not working, you're frust rated. You would like to be working with the band. I am frustrated, but I think life isn't that simple. You know, human beings are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and also go out to an art gallity and see something that will blow my mind and make me feel excited.

And I have like all these ideas and it excites me and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come home and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute, like most human beings are. Okay, But okay, this is another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right, I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk out the front door in your mood changes. It's just astounding. You just have to the threshold. But assuming it's just

you're not on the road. An average day, you wake up when seven is oh, so you're living regular human being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm more creative at night. I have a dog and the dog has to get out, and I'm not a dog person. I'm in service to my dog and the dog you have to get up at seven are seventh? Their t is? You know? And are you the type person who will go out to breakfast with friends or you are not going to write first friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes?

Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person. You're not a loner. I am very much a people person. I love people and I'm fascinated by them. But I'm also a misanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality that exists in most human beings, Like I am really fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once. Do you want to see them again? It depends how great they are right exactly? Or do you find bore bob?

But I have no interest in seeing them. There are a lot of people I find. You know, everybody's got a fascinating story. You can hear it once, but there are other people. Every time you hang with them, they tell the same story, and it's like, you know, I have no I I bump them and into one thing, but I'm not going to make plans with them. No, of course, not I mean, that's how you select the people in your life. But it also makes me feel I mean, uh, I don't view myself as the average person.

I don't know what they can even say this, Maybe it's out of date. Average person is getting up in the morning and going to a job. They're seeing people all the time at the job. It is wearing them out, and they come home and they want to relax. They maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and get up and do it again. And on the weekends they'll go out to dinner, I'll go out to a show. They'll cut loose. Okay where this someone once made a

great line? You know, the people who party hardest on these conventions are not the music business people because these other people it's one time of year. You got a Vegas. These people out of control where the music. But you can think you can party every night, So why shouldn't be out of control tonight? So my question is are you since you don't have when you're not on the road, you're not recording. Uh, are you in the house sort of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying

your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk my dog alt, I go to galleries, I read a lot, I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends. I mean, there's a million and one thing. So in the average, in the average week, how many times in a week do you go to breakfast with friends? Go

to dinner with friends? You don't no idea. I'm you know, trying to say, is you know you sound very social, So therefore when I hear that you about your frustration, I'm just trying to figure it out, you know, And you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type of person who really you know, you go when you have a good time. But are you mostly alone or you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea.

This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm both gregadious. I both love people and I hate them. If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life with my talk. Okay, So if you're home alone, I'm happy. You're a happy pig and ship Okay, and you're married At this point, they've been married for eight years. What did your husband do for a living. He's a music producer, music producer. We could look this up online. So what

what what does he actually do? Well? He also works with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, And he also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing bands on his own, is he tend to be in town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town? All of the above? And if you go on the road, does he go with you on the road? Yes, he does, and he does the sound on the road. So you're together. We're together. And how did you meet him? We hired him? You hired him? And how he was our guitar? Roadif?

How old is he relative to you? He's a year younger than okay, so basically the same age. How long did it became a romance? Oh? Years and years and years, years and years and years. He loved me from the day that he met me, he said. In fact, he said that he loved me before he met me because he'd heard me sing. And he used to listen to a garbage c D every night to go to sleep. Milk would send him to sleep every night. This was before we met. Then we met and I couldn't have

been less interested in him. And but then over the years he became a really good friend. And then I started to notice that when he wasn't around, I didn't feel good. Really yeah, but he was, you know, carrying a was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was the transition? What made it happen? I mean I tell the story all the time and people don't believe me,

but this is how superficial and cheap I am. So my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning, long rocker hair, and she shaved it off. So we had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We were supporting I think Alanis Morissett, and we came down in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and there was a super hot guy standing by the side of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship,

that's Billy Bush there. And began the romance. Okay, and so actually married how long eight years? How long was the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe a long time? Yeah, And now, uh, you were married once before I was, And what was that about Well, it was about a gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much, but we were pulled apart by extraneous circumstances. I start

touring the world. And also I think I had rushed to his side because he was a paternal figure and I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive relationship until I met my first husband. So he kind of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end? It just ended in sadly, in me becoming successful and going on tour and we've never seen each other, and then the relationship just kind of deteriorated and in my great you don't have any children? Right? Oh god? No, okay,

so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that you were never going to have children. No, I never knew that I wouldn't have children. But I never ached for them, like women talk a lot about aching in their wombs, and I would always be like, kind of like a dude looking at them blankly, like what does that mean? I don't even know where that is. I had no aching in my womb and no a longing for a child. Really, how about your husband? None? Either? Well,

I felt the same way. I felt that I was living my own life and I didn't want to subjugate myself. But once I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless and I saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and I understood it at that point in time. But it's very much a different life when you don't have kids. I'm not complaining, but it's different. People say, oh, I'm turned onto this and that by kids. I'm not turned on.

I mean, you know it doesn't happen to me. No, But I also don't believe one should live vicariously through your kids. I don't mean like I couldn't agree more. I'm trying to say, especially when it comes to musical trends. They'll be in the car and the kid will say, hey, put this on the radio something you would normally not listen to. My Yeah. I mean, there's billions of children in my life, thankfully, so it's not like I'm of contact with any kids or any new music or whatever.

But for me personally, I think my mother was so devoted to me as a mom, like she was an orphan. Like my mom was had a crazy story. She was like an orphan child of a governess. And a butler in a stately home in Scotland, and the idea of her the mom having a child out of wedlock would have lost she would have lost her job and been you know, castigated. So they took the baby in a basket literally and dropped her off in an orphanage. And she was reared in the in the institution of you

know or orphanages until she was five years old. So family was really important to her, and she dedicated herself slavishly. One would say to her children, and I think I just grew up thinking, no way am I doing that. That is not I'm not doing that. We're going to pause for a moment. We joined this conversation with truly more of the band Garbage. This is Bob. I love talking to people getting their stories, much like I do

on this podcast. For two name, I'll be talking to some of the most important people in the music in tech industries that my music media summit in Santa Barbara the last week in of April. I'd love to have you joined the event. It's going to be a great way to connect in person with these high profile individuals, learned how they made it in the future, direction of their industries. Go to Music Media Summit dot com for tickets and more information. Let's continue the conversation with the

lead singer of the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for the last six months we've been living through this me too moment. First question would be, you know we talked about with your first band, but have you experienced any of this sexism or sexual harassment? Yeah? Every woman that unless she's incredibly privileged. Now, on some level, you're very dynamic and very quick, but on some level, one level, some level, no, I'm gonna get to the other level.

So on some level you're very dynamic and you're quick, okay, but you also tell stories of being shy and subservient. So where does this leave in these situations? Well, that's a really good question. I mean, it's peculiar. I don't think anyone who hasn't been physically touched unwanted in an adwanted fashion really can understand why it's difficult sometimes to use your voice in that situation. Um, I consider myself a very dominant, aggressive, articulate person, and I've had my

body touched and have frozen as recently as last year. Uh, when you were to the degree you're comfortable. What happened last year? I was at a radio festival and we were meeting competition winners and we had there was a long line of people that we were just standing in front of a backdrop and having our photographs taken, and some dude moves in, stands beside me, puts his hand

on my breast. He's got his arm around me and then puts his hand on my breast and I think, oh, wow, he's he's so nervous and I comfortable he has had on my breast. This is embarrassing, that's all right. And I tried to like shift and he just kept on

grabbing me. And then eventually I put my own hand on his hand and pushed his hand to try and get him off my breast, and he would not let go, and eventually I managed to push his hand down to my waist and we took the photograph and I was frozen like a deer in the headlights, and he wandered off and I couldn't even look where he'd went, what direction he had gone, and I was just so my mind was so full of like wow, that dude just

grab my tit in front of everybody. Now I'm not saying that's comparable to what a lot of women have experienced or some men, by the way, but it was unpleasant and I found it really upsetting, and I was angry at myself for not going dude and shout, you know, calling him out, like what are you doing? But I didn't, And so it gave me some insight into the process that occurs for so many women in situations where they just freeze and they can't push back, they can't shout,

they can't fight back, they can't say anything. It's mad. So let's assume the same thing were to happen this summer. Do you think you would freeze again? I don't know, you know, I don't know. That's something I don't think men understand. You See, It's like when you're a woman your entire life, when you walk out the house, you're aware that you could be hurt in some way, and men never have that experience, not really unless they're in warfare.

You know, generally speaking, a man doesn't have to think about his physical safety. Women think about it all the time, and it's something that men, God bless them, just cannot quite connect to that idea of like that you know, you're walking down the street, you're nervous, there's some somebody whistles out your says something sexual to you. It's intimidating, it's frightening because you don't know where it can lead. You know, I was married to someone who did not

have them as a guy. We've all been in places, we've hit on somebody that's kind of weird, kind of tache. We've even talked to a woman okay, and they very specifically send a signal it's a brush off. I don't want to talk to you, okay, And if you're a man, unfortunately, if someone doesn't give that signal, a lot of people but then see that as a green light unfortunately. So you fear as a woman, you feel you might get hurt to what degree? What behaviors doing you employ to

make sure you don't get hurt? Well, I mean you're careful, you know, I've always been very careful. I don't walk down dark streets alone at night if I can possibly help it. If I am down in dark street at night by myself, I'm walking down the middle of the middle of the road, because it was going to take a further distance to drag me from one side to

the other. I mean silly things like that. You know, um, I make it very clear and I'm very lucky and that I am not scared to say, dude, I'm not interested. You know, please go go back and join your friends or you know, I'm pretty clear. But not. But not all women are like that. And a lot of women have been conditioned to please men and a peace men and they don't They don't want to upset them or hurt their egos or or incite them, you know, to

be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play. I mean, I know we've all talked about this for some months now, and my only feeling about it all is we need to re educate our children, are boys and our girls. And what would that look like? Well, you know, it's

it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know, there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even when a woman says no, that you know that they learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll finally get what they want, she'll relent, you know. Blah blah blah. There's all this misconst like misguiding stuff out

there about what it means to be a dude. And I just think we need to to change a little just I just think a few tweaks and the way we raise our children will will help men and women co exist a little more comfortably those look like. I think the great thing that I welcome the most right

now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think that is a great start right there, where men are not expected to be you know, the the the one who they alpha yea, or they're not expected to be the predator and or the chaser or the one who always asked a woman out in a day where it becomes a little more iglitarian where men and women are. You know, a lot of the time when I was growing up in the seventies, women were just expected to wait, literally wait until a man asked her to dance, you know.

So it all starts off at in primary school for us, you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland, were all the women were lined up against the wall and then the men or the boys were sent and I go choose your partner, and the man would the boy would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And are you bringing back memories? Wow, that's really crazy. You know, I'm not healthy and not good and it starts right

that early, you know. And I think boys are praised for being you know, good at sports and aggressive and and even violent, you know, and women are praised for being pretty and cute and small and just a little tweaks like that. You know, I think it could help change the Well, let's go back to your husband. You pull up in the bus. You see him with a buzz cut. You said that dude looks hot. You really recognize them very slowly. How do you change the signal

you're sending to him? Well, these are my trade secrets. I don't serve them. You've already used them. You're getting you know, you're very happily married, healthy audience. No, no, no, that's that's my own game. That's my private game, for sure. I mean, how how you you let someone know? I mean I knew he would love me, of course, we've established I love you, bet you, so eventually I was just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together,

we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay, what advice would you give to someone where the other person's uh desires are not as clear? I have no advice to give, because I think it's different for every single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket rules there, because each man and each woman and each any any person of any gender, we're all made up so differently, and so what what is seen as a as um a dance between the two is so unique to each relationship.

I think, you know, there's no blanket advice i'd give anyone for fear of that biting me in the ass. You sound like more of the type of person would give advice and then when they came back to it said it didn't work to well, you know, what the hell do I know that's true? I was? I mean, I I the older I get, the less advice. I want to get all the exact same way. Twenty years ago, I tell everybody how to live their lives. Now I'm not sure that I know what I'm talking about, and

I know I have no idea what I'm telling. And they say, and they're not gonna listen to me. It's like why why ruined the relationship? But waste right now. The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much with the truth, is we have a guy who shy and he speaks to his guitar and he feels if I become successful musician, I will be able to have a girlfriend of sex, life, etcetera. That's men on the road. It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera.

But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The men went on the road. There were groupies. As David Lee Roth said, I know on the road, and I can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily by whom I want to get laid by, but every night of the week. As a woman being on the road, What were your desires and your feelings in your own experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know,

being like number one all over the world. I was all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country. I was being lauded and applauded, and everything was tick tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go back to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop with what is tixie boo? Tick ty boo just means you know what tickt boo? Right, Okay, you can just hear from from hearing it. But did you go back to your hotel room happy? Or did you say, god, I'm

on the cover every magazine here I am alone. I probably went home back to my hotel room. How to work? There is nobody around, you know, but I have to believe being that famous, invisible men would try to make themselves available. No, no, men were terrified of me. Absolutely. You're a band on the road, which means you're going to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a lot of men there. One of those men starts not

what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again, that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too, how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And no man really has been taught to deal with that. Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations, but the majority of men don't know how to deal with a woman who's more successful than they are, and you know, has has has a credit card, and can get herself

out of any situation. She doesn't need the night in Shining Armor to come save her. They don't know what to do with that. In your marriage, are you the one? Do you wear the pants and the family so to speak? No, I actually we have a pretty balanced So you decide you're going to go to dinner, who chooses the restaurant changes every day? Okay, So I mean I'm not being funny, I'm not being flippant. I was interress with you. So

it's balanced in the relationship balance. So once you get over the thre shold, you're willing to be equal to the man as opposed to be dominant with the man. Well, I'll be dominant if I feel like this situation is not being taken care of, of course, that's that's something different. So if we go back to this situation, you're on top of the world, you're and there are no um boyfriends at the time, do you start to hit on men? Well,

that's a good question. I don't know. Some people say you're you're flirting out rageously with him, and I'm like, no, I wasn't. Well, there's one thing to flirt outrageously and say I'm having fun, but I would never left this guy in my hotel room. There's another thing to say, I'm having fun if the guy is fun, and it might go somewhere. To be honest, I'm no, I can't.

I don't really have any memories of meeting somebody that was really interested in so because the pickens were slim or your standards, I'm slim and my standards were high. To be honest, and again, I'm signing like a sort of a sort of old maid in that I have never wanted to just have sex with someone just to have sex, because I just think, statistically wise, there's very few people that are going to make my experience worth it.

So in general, I'm attracted to the brain first, and then then then I'm like, okay, sex could be interesting, let's see where this goes. But it's usually brain first. I'm never like, oh he's hot, I'm going to like go go back to my own you know. That's you know, in my limited experience. That's women feel the same way. There there's millions of women that I know who are who will fox somebody for just sex. Millions of them, I think so, But isn't that they're the lower percentage.

I don't know, Actually, I would challenge that idea. I think that's what we've been led to believe. I feel like that's necessarily reality. It's like affairs, you know, supposedly, you know, more women are having an affairs than men. So what does that tell you? I think you know what it tells you. I know I'm only do me I'm wrong. Put myself on the ground a little bit more. I think it'll do a great degree. That to men

who are not u servicing is a terrible world. I don't mean in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not paying attention to the woman, and the woman has opportunities. Well, women are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as they get older, they get better at doing that, and then it seems lose their confidence. It's a sort of flip of the way we are that we developed that, the way we educate. I think women as they get older, get smarter, and they're like, oh wait a minute, what

a call? And this has been you know, and men suddenly realize, oh, I'm not quite the dominant gorgeous stud I thought I was. Well, if their confidence drops, women's confidence rises, and so there you have men break up and they go hang with their budge and they watch ESPN and they drink beer and they don't even talk about it. Women women don't. Women rally around each other and can live without a man. It's the men who are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But that's the men who

were weak. They don't want to admit it. No, it's not that they're weak. I mean, I think again, they're just not given the tools. They're not educated, they're not shown how to age, they're not shown how to live and have bigger women are taught how to survive in ways that men aren't, and vice versa. You know. So this is what I'm talking about goes back to what I'm saying earlier. We need to change the way we educated. We can all have happy health. I agree with you,

better taught to go, I'll be hunters. But that's about it. You know. It's funny you should say that because I suddenly had this sort of realization very recently. I was watching a TV show and it was about the Vikings, and and men were getting sent off to you know, to fight, and it was brutal, and I was like, God, I think those those times, it must have been horrendous. And then it made me think of all the men

that get sent off to this day into war. And men are sort of like they are educated to to shut something off from themselves so that they will be willing to go and fight for their countries, you know, and get into these terrifying situations that never really happens to women. Not really again sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of women in the services and and so on, but you know, sort of over the last few centuries, men have been taught a certain way so that they will mindlessly go

in and and and fight to their deaths. And and we that that society has changed slightly since then. And think it's also changed because I grew up in an era of a draft where it kind of crossed classes, where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best.

To be honest, I don't I really really fight that idea of all every fiber of my being, because like I come from a family where my dad marks everything out of ten. It drives me insane. To me, I feel like life is always surprising. You can go like you could go to Paris and have a dreadful experience. Hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's the best, it's just what I guess is the most

enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point, I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience. And even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall, I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To go to the cities, to countries and see how other people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly

fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you the type then that he's a fool. Of course, my question is he also was staying up all night developing film in the film era, so the band could wake up and see the photos from the night before, so

it wasn't totally his fault. But there are a lot of people they go, they go from the bus to the hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything. Are you the type of person who takes advantage in these very I try. I try always to get up early, like you know, We'll have traveled over you know, from I don't know New York to to South after Cape Town for a random example, and we've had no sleep, but I'll still get up after two hours to go on safari because I know this will never happen to

me again. You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing, We've been traveling all night, but you get the opportunity to go to the Blue Mosque, you know, and have your mind blown. It's just I feel it's really important, you know too, to take advantage of those moments where you really get shown so much and it does shift your perspective so much. Absolutely. One of the problems you know with America is people haven't been anywhere and they think it's the greatest. I mean talk very minor things.

You go to a European or you know, UK, it's finally coming to America. They have the dual flush toilet. I mean, that's a good idea. Okay, they just recently come to America where they can change the price of the gas electronically. These are not major things, but everybody in the United States give its Oh where we are, it couldn't be any better where. It's much better in

many other places, of course. But then there's also incredibly beautiful, precious things about the US, which you know, for me as an immigrant, you know, coming here, my entire career is down to America. Like I will never forget that. I have deep, deep love for this country. And a lot of people in the rest of the world take swings of America for a lot of different reasons, you know. But I always describe America as being in a really innocent like everybody's like, no, it's just vulgar. No, it's

not vulgar. It's innocent because what of the population has never traversed outside the national boundaries. And like you say, everyone believes that they're the best in America, that they've got the best country, and and you know, one would argue that's not the anymore, you know, and and that is a great sadness. But also hey, welcome to the rest of the world. We're exactly We're all the same,

We're just all trying to figure everything out. And um, I think that what's what is both awful about the Internet, but what's also so great about it is it will and it is slowly impacting America and changing the way people think, and everyone's becoming a bit more educated about other ways of life. It doesn't feel like that right now for obvious reasons, but I think ultimately over the next thirty, forty, fifty years whatever, that America is going

to change all for the better. Now, in the thirty years you have left, what would you like to accomplish your do I want to continue to travel as much as possible, That is my biggest desire. And not to lose my curiosity. I want to remain curious if and to keep and to try and nurture courage. I think that what looks like that I will continue to try new things that I will try and and meet people and without judgment, you know, and try and listen, try,

and I want to be a better listener. That's that's a big thing for me. I like, I want to be in service rather than serving myself. You know what. I'm in a in distribart. I've done nothing but served myself for twenty odd years, you know, and I want to change that as much as possible as my life progresses. I want to be in service. Okay, I call you up or I text you, and I say, let's go to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh,

we're gonna go. I want to take you to this restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that. Are you say, I'm into it a new experience. Oh yeah, and I've eaten some terrible things, but I always want to try. I don't want to be that person who's scared to try because I've discovered incredible things that I didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but just looking at the situation in general. Have you ever said yes to something and said, oh that was a big mistake. Yes?

Do you remember anything? Yes? Space Mountain and Disneyland. I said yes, and I went on it and I wished to hudn't said yes. I really hated it. Well, the funny thing about it is I didn't go on Space Mountain until about you know, sometimes like then in this century. Okay, you know, they'd say Disneyland's a happiest place on Earth, and no, it's the most miserable place there. It's a place where I would never need go. I like to do everything in life once just so I can talk

about it. So I rent there. It was great or it sucked whatever. But I was not a Disneyland person. But I went with my nephews and we went on Space Mountain. I'm not a big roller coaster person. Whatever. But the fact that the roller coaster was underground, you know, because most of the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say. See, I didn't find disney Disneyland rights disappointing. Far from it.

I really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find it the happiest place on Earth. I found it one of the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed in children's farts the entire time I was there. I hated standing for an hour and a half for a two minute, right, you know. But when I go into Space Mountain, I knew that it was like the prim right. Everyone was like, this is going to blow your mind. And I I honestly thought I was gonna have a

heart attack. Really, yes, that was awful. That's one thing I remember. They had a they're still there. They have something called the Revolution. Maybe they're going to tear it Down's original roller coaster at Magic Mountain and the seventies. It was the first roller coaster that went upside down. So I remember getting on. It would go up a little hill, gonna curve and then and you're there. Then you were You're there. I am so freaked up. You

can't get off. It's like there, It's like there's nothing I can do. But I like being on the little teacups. I feel safe vomit cups. Really, oh man, it was a really that was one of the original rides. But um, music drove the culture in the era that you grew up in, an I do not believe music drives the culture at this particularly do. I just think there's no common music driving the entire culture, if that makes any sense. I think music has a big an influence now than

it arguably ever has. But it's all, you know, fractionalized or what's the word. I'm looking you know, I get what you're saying, you know, they're all these different niches. Why do you think it has as much. I mean, if I go back to the sixties, a rock star would say something and beyond the radio and it would change thinking in the role in general. I don't think that happens. No, it doesn't have the same cultural impact

because everyone's not listening to the same one artist. You know, when Elvis was singing, we were all listening to Elvis. You know, not you were too well, I was too young. But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay, but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed to get in here. So I take my chances from female whenever I can get up full respect. Okay. So in any event, you're you're saying that it's not driving

the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well, single artists and bands are not. They don't have the same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I mean that sounds like such a copype I really do.

And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like sort of of creating my listening habits recently, I've just put my I've just turned my phone on and put it through this system and just listen to anything from my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary. I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well,

there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said, I listened to classical, I listened to you Azz, I listened to blues, I listened to POPA listen to rock, I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen

to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like if you go on Spotify or any of the services and you listen to the new music and they break it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty country tracks, fifty dance tracks, and if you listen to fifty, you'll find one or two good ones, and you start to get overwhelmed, you know, and a lot of times you'll find something go you know, recently, well, is anybody else I like this? As anybody else like that? There's

no coherence to the culture. That's true, but is that about them? I'm not sure that's about that. I think I hate being told what to do. But it goes back to what we're talking about earlier in terms of argument. We live in an era where everyone has their own facts in their own lives, which is almost a tower of Babel society. And even with television, we're in the golden age of television and is there are a lot

fewer television shows than there are music shows. But even then we'll find well, we can't talk because we didn't see the same shows, we didn't see the same movies. Okay, so there's no community fiber. No, that's true, But we don't know yet where that's going to go. That might go somewhere fantastic, We just don't know yet. Well, I think I believe it's going to go along the lines

of americ at large, which is winners and losers. I believe we have an inherent desire to be with other people like you talk about going out to breakfast or dinner or whatever, or it' to be able to say, oh I saw that show. It sucked, Okay, And therefore there's a lot of rabble rousing from people who are not successful. But the reasons if you look at the movie business, like and I don't go to the movies. First of they don't start when you want them to start.

And I have so much I don't have any time, and I have so many options at home on the flat screen. But if you look at the weekly grosses, you know, Black Panther well far eclips all the other movies combined. And I think part of the people say, oh, yeah, I saw that good bad. Otherwise, I think there's a desire for community. There is a desire for community. But at the same time, I do believe in the principle of evolution. I have faith in evolution that evolution will

sort this out sooner or later. I mean, every generation moans about the new generation that's in place, you know, And I feel that we always harp on about how things once were, forgetting that evolution has always like I have better life than my mom did, and my mom has a better life than my granny did. And I have to assume that my all my friends kids will have a better life than and than we did. And

I think that's a great thing. And I think we can all sort of like pick over the carcass of what once was, or we can embrace what is and I want to be and what is I'm going to embrace what it is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay, in my generation, I know a lot of people are not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers, your parents had a lot. Well, you're you're talking about economics though, right, you're talking about house and money okay,

and you're talking about rights freedoms. Well, knowledge, I would argue, engay people can get married in America is wonderful. I gret a lot of that to MTV. People saw a rainbow of colors there and therefore they were you know, there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in a country the way there isn't less racism. But that's a whole lot of back to that. I believe in America there is less racism, but you have a very vocal minority who was afraid of losing. I have to disagree. You're

talking from a very white, privileged position. No, I'm saying that if you go back decades and you saw an interracial couple walking down the street, chances are there to be sneers or comments comments. I believe there are less and now we're all victims of our own experience. And I'm not saying there's not racism, there's not anti semitism, there's not sexism. But I believe, but I believe as a result of media, there's a certain level of enlightenment.

I view as a result of the economic disparity. Okay, the people who have been left out, whether through their own fault or not through room fault, have started to rebel around the world Half Brexit, Trump, etcetera. And it's focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has come racism. And I don't want to comment on the rest of the rule because I'm not as much of an expert, but in America, I would believe pound for pound there's

less racism and less homophobia than there was. Not that there isn't very vocal racism homophobia, but I think we're you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who used to be the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he had his insane show, and he's not a stupid guy. He says, the liberals always win in the end, Okay, all the things that were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera. They're happening. Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well, I

don't even notice where to start without. To be honest, we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the penal system here in America. No, have you seen you're making I am not your Negro back, but you're making the point that a whole generation of African Americans were wiping up by putting them in jails. It's nothing what you're making. I agree totally. You know that there's a

lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing for them. But what I'm saying is that I believe that generally it's going Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again, it's complex, isn't it. There are some people who get left behind this, but generally speaking, our generation has it better than the previous generation. And then there are parts of our society who are being left behind. And that's blacks and and

people of color appressively so, but it's also white. I don't want to make this, as you know, white apologist, but just to illuminate the point, this is how Trump got elected. There are people as a result of the economic changes they in globalization, they don't have if you're left behind. And and then the crazy thing stamething with Brexit. Their solution is, let's chet back to the past, and

the past is never coming back. That's Trump's approach to It's it's very like I just did never believe you can look back. I think you must always look forward to you know. Well, the scary thing is I mean, I certainly lived through the sixties of the Vietnam War in the draft, but since then in America, this is the first time where every you're addicted to the news and it's uh, it's just like when the wall fell, when the wall fell in Berlin and you were there.

We were of the illusion in America the other doctor, democracy will reign. And now you have booting, you know, assassinating spies in a different country, and we have you know, you know, we have the head of the country for life in China. It's you know, the world is going to it. You know. It's exactly as my dad says. And I actually feel like I have to cling onto this analogy, which is, you know, evolution happens, whether we

like it or not. It's just what occurs when you leave humans on a planet for long enough, they will evolve. And there's always moments, he said, It's just like it's like tight, it's like title shifts, you know, you that's the tide gets sucked back for a moment, and then it surges forward, and it surges for further forward than it did before. And that's that's always what my dad says to try and calm me down when I'm getting hysterical and and full of desperate depression about the way

the world is turning. He's like, it's it will turn back, generally speaking, Are you an optimist? I used to be a terrible pessimist, and then something turned around when my mom died for me, like it was like a bolt from the blue I had. I was forced to change my thinking because if I hadn't changed my thinking, I would have died of grief. And and I I just decided me. I made a decision that the light because

my mom had a lot of light in her. She was a real people pleaser, my mom because she'd been an orphan and she wants people to love her and like her, and so she brought light into every situation, and I used to annoy me, you know, as a moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me. And then when she died, I realized that light is gone. You know, people would say to me at my mom's funeral. You know your mam always you never left your mom feeling worse.

You always left your mom feeling better than you did before you bumped into her. And I just made this decision that I had to do something with my mom's light. I couldn't let it go and dissipate into nothing. That's I had to hold a bit of her light in me, and I used that to change the way I approached my life. It sounds really okay, but it's really true,

and it was quite that conscious. It was conscious. Yeah, I was just like, I need to change the way I I don't want people to leave me feeling worse. I don't want to be a vibe crush. I don't want people to feel yucky around me. And you know, we're all aware of what that's like to bump into somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know, whether they're irritable, whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether they only talk about themselves. I don't know. There's a million one reasons

why we don't like being around people. Yeah, And I was just like, I want to be a person in the world that makes people feel good. Again, I go back to this word of being in service, like I just I want to take my mom's light and give it to someone else so we can spread these particles of my amazing mother. When you talk about service, that's you know, twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Okay, and you never had a problem with Okay. That's not

to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol. I had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely the type person who couldn't have only one. If you want to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't call me you want to have the night of your life or attempt you know, Oh boy, I can tell story after story, and then then there's you know how I and then how I finally stopped, and I did not stop saying, oh, I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have

another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy and no more, excuse me, I want to know more. This is a much longer story but I'll give you just the tip of it. Yeah, give me the cry. So this was nineteen This is a long time ago one going into two. And I had been stopped for drunk driving on the night that John Lennon got died. John jet shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself.

But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to d u I and there's a condition with that where you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink. And in the time it took for that case to come to court, I had been stopped once again on the four oh five. In that particular case. The couple let me go, but I but I knew that I could be stopped. So once I got the reckless driving and I couldn't have a drink within eight hours of driving, I took that very serious. Okay, because you cannot be

in Los Angeles without a driver's license. You have to move. This is pre uber, pre the train, etcetera. You can't do that. So no, I wouldn't you know, I would walk home from the bar or whatever. And the Los Angeles had something not that easy to say. I met a woman and at that big that was just when sushi was coming, and she lived in West Hollywood, and she bit me. Everybody's in you know, this is part of a sex. This is part of it during intercourse. Were what part of your boat did she bite that

was on my neck? I believe the first time. And I immediately I like like, I like being frozen like you. Okay. I immediately just reacted, whoa that hurt? And she said, oh, it didn't hurt that bad. That was not the right answer for me. Okay, So she apologizes, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I'm really kind of freaked out. And for a couple of days things are sha and then she and she says it will never happen again, never happen again, okay.

And I go to visit her, and the sushi bar was two blocks from her house, okay, And we come back. We come back and the same thing happens again. But I can't leave because I can't dry within eight hours of having a drink, You're stuck there. And I say, my life is way too complicated. I'm gonna stop drinking

for now so I won't be in this situation. And then it was such a change, not drinking because I was not in a good spot in my life that it was such getting over the hurdle that when I got over the hurdle, I didn't want to drink again. But hold on. So when she beat you, it was during sex and she bat your neck and it was so painful that did she take a chunk out? Event she didn't take a chunk, but it was but it fell like there would be blood. It was not a

playful bite. It was something very aggressive because you were such a good fuck. I'm trying to think, you know, you know, you go back into these I've been in a very long term relationship where I'd lived with a woman for years and that had ended and there was the rebound relationship, and this was the first kind of

more serious relationship after the rebound relationship. So uh I And it's one of those situations where I don't know whether this is I'm wondering whether you've been on the opposite side where you're doing everything is normal, but the person is starting to say things that heighten your ange, Like I've got a great story, but it's like a holiday, Well you have to come meet my parents. Well it's one thing if I had been dating you for six months or a year. We've been going out for a

couple of weeks. I don't need to meet your parents. So at some point I believe she sensed a little. This was not the first time she bit me, but the last time she bait me, I think, and I did leave. I think she sent some of my reluctance and it was a whatever. But the story you were going to tell, well, I was having sex once in my parents house with an older guy, and you know, we were trying to keep it on the download because my parents were sleeping upstairs, and we were in front

of a fire in in my parents house. That was a cool fueled fire, but it had a glass pane, so you know that it was an enclosed fire with a glass front. So we're having sex anyway, and my knee falls onto the glass pane, and you know, he's humping me, and he's a big dude, and he's like, you know, making all the sexual signs, and I eventually go, I'm I'm burning up because my knee was burning on the glass and he went, yeah, me too. That was so low fi and I got really badly burned that

over him. We could go on forever. They The amazing thing about you is I only know you by image, Okay, I mean I see you in the videos on the you know, in other media. You are completely different from what I thought you. It's all good for for some reason, and you will laugh hysterically. I thought you were somewhat demure in results. No, I mean I'd almost like to reel the whole podcast back and start with just the hell's a popping off the top of our head conversation first,

because I was, you know, at first, I'm anxious. You know, I don't really know you what what will be the point that will stimulate you? And I realized it doesn't take that much, and it takes a lot. You know, today's me too world. I don't know where I can go there are we I meant stimulation in terms of getting you excited about the world at large? Is that what you mean? You meant it more you met it? Oh, Bob, come on, okay, I'm not now went through the mental

roll index figuring out exactly what's going on here. You've been listening to Shirley Manson on the Bob Left Sets podcast. You were wonderful, Shirley. That wraps up this week's episode of the Bob Left Sets podcast. According to here at the tune In Studios in Venice, California, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Shirley Manson about her life, career, used on relationships, sexuality, and so much more. I might

still be blushing by next week's episode. As always, I'd love to know what you think of the show, so email me at Bob at left sets dot com. Until next time, I'm Bob Lefts to me exact and me