Rickie Lee Jones

that experience been like in the COVID era. Well, I've done a few dates, but let's see. We did some in September, and then I guess did Florida. So playing Florida isn't like the rest of the country. And the first night was people were masked and it was a show. The second night's odd, very few people had masks on. I guess the governor's anti mandate mandate came into effect um. But for me to be honest one time on stage, I don't even remember there's COVID. I don't remember anything.

I'm just up there playing as I always did. So it's it's there are less states harder to do. But for me it's the same. Okay, any fear of getting COVID yourself, well a little bit, um, but not enough to keep me from going out there and sharing the air with people. And at this point in time, what is the motivation? To what degree is the motivation go on the road? Money? To what degree is the experience?

To what degree is hey, I just gotta have to do something else in my life than there are other people who say you can't get that hit anywhere else in life being on stage. So what's motivating you at this point to go on the road? Money? Money, money, money, I don't have. Uh, you know, I think if I were rich, would I would I want to go on tour. I bet you I would. But I can't have that perspective because I have to go on to have to That's how I make my check. So that gets tiring

to um. But like anybody else who has to go to work, UM, you know, I don't always see um that I'd like to do it. I love performing for people, but it's exhausting, it's exhausting emotionally. Um. Sometimes I'm done, you know, and I'd like to wait for the next group of songs to come or my life to turn the dial and then come on stage again. But I can't keep keep working. So um, that being said, there is I don't like that praiser, but there is something

happening this year. There is something happening wonderful for me. People are recognizing me. I don't feel like I've changed, particularly getting older, and I could add that you know a woman in pop or rock music getting older, being one of the survivors making it to old age. And my job has is bringing to me um a confidence because I just don't care anymore. And I don't think it's an arrogance. I think it's just finally, if you like it, come, I love, I love, I want to

give love. If you don't, that's all right to go where you like it. And I'm not trying to win, which was a lifelong pursuit. Believe me that one guy will never like what I do, so that's been shed from me. And when I'm on stage, I'm everybody, I imagine UM knows exactly what they're doing. So the thing that everything is not at stake when I'm up there, it doesn't matter if my socks match. All that matters

is that I'm singing the best I can sing. Um that's come to me now, And I think that's translating in that way that only comes to older people, where people go, wow, that she's really good. She's really good. Now to what degree does that free you creatively? You know things you say, well, maybe the audience, whether it be on recordings or alive. Me have a hard time getting to this for this time saying I'm going to test the limits. I'm not living forever. Who gives a

ship that's a great question. I did some testing of limits back when I did Ghost Ahead and and and challenged people's personal reception of me, both both in the recording and on tour. That's not what I don't need to do that anymore, but I recognize that there is some conforming going on. You know, it's such a complicated thing, the way we interact with each other. So you know, you go, I love it when you brush your hair down and wear that red shirt. I like my red shirt.

But now that I know you want me to brush my hair down with the red shirt, I don't know if I like it anymore. So all those ways we um doubt what we do naturally, So when I'm on stage, I naturally sing jazz, or I naturally like to play a happy song, or I naturally very depressed and playset song. But when I know you're expecting that, then I start to feel like I'm, you know, at work and calling it lines. So then I go, I have so many ideas. I'd like to do a night of improvisation and um,

and I will do that. But but the question is, am I just doing it because I want you to like me no matter what I do. I want you to prove that you like me. I like that superhero on the Boys, want you like me, not just my music And all those trips I went to I went through in the thirties and forties, and I just I don't really have them now. When I'm ready, maybe I'll take off my clothes and wear fishnet body suit and and improvise the entire night if I feel like that's

gonna take us where we want to go. Because it's about the audience as much as me. It just is. It's not about you watching me derived pleasure. It's about us and how we experience the songs together. When I'm singing and I think that you know, there have been times in my life where I thought, this is all about me, it's not about you. I don't care if you like it. Um, I'm not supposed to care if you like it, So so fuck you, guys. It's not already to say that, and um, yeah, but I know

that that's not the truth. It never was the truth. The truth is if you travel all the way from your home and you buy a ticket and all the things you have to do to get there, and all the things I have to do to get there, we've come to be together. And that's what this moment is. It's me singing and and that spirit going through it. And so, um, I feel like that's your job. I do very well and I have confidence now in in what I do. And uh, I don't know why, but

I spent a lifetime without much confidence. Okay, so the people at the show, do you? I mean? I have this very distinct memory of going to see Brian Adams and happened to be during the daytime where it's harder to get the audience, and he literally took the set list, looked at the band, ripped it in half, and then worked his way into the minds of the audience and

bought everybody together. If people show up at your show, do you feel an obligation at this late date, at this age to get that person who's sort of you know, looking at their phone or drifting. Do you sit up and saying saying, I'm gonna convince that person. First of all, nobody looks at their phone when I'm on stage. Everybody is with me, and if they're not, they're probably somewhere where I can't see them. Um. You know, I never have a set list. It's always about what we feel today.

Sometimes this song follows this song really well, so you might trying to do a couple back to back, but I'm always listening and feeling how do I feel tonight? And where do they want to go? Are they kind of sadder? All right, then we'll go that way. So um, So that's not a big deal to me. It requires very special people in the band. They not only have to be great players, but they have to not be intimidated easily, because that thing of not knowing what you're

gonna play next can be can make people angry. I've had musics to get angry about that. So you gotta love play and you gotta be a great player, so that whatever I call you, you're gonna be able to do it, and then we have a good time because otherwise, in a short time they're playing wrote. They hate me because they're playing wrote, but not as much as they hate me, if I call it a different sense of challenge.

But the main thing I don't I don't know if you've seen me and how many times you've seen me, but my performances are usually very powerful, um very powerful. I like to say that, like church or anything. But people get caught up. There's a lot of crying, there's a lot of laughing. We are feeling and experiencing things that that's inexplicable. It's more than the voice, that's more than the story. All the lifetime people have invested in the in the music is taking place there. So it's

a powerful thing. It is not you know, it's not playing, it's not playing the list. But I get why you would do something extraordinary in the middle of the day to wake people up, you know, to the fact that they're in a show whatever time. I get why you did. And you know, I haven't crowd served yet, so I might have jumped out in the audience. Carry me, carry me and uh, and that could have gone wrong. But

testing them that way, I understand why you go. You know, if I play this show to a dead audience, to people who are distracted and uninterested, it's gonna harm me. It's gonna make me cynical, it's gonna make it harder for me to do the next show. So I'm I'm gonna. So the two things you do is you hold your breath and and do it, or you go, let's shake them up. And sometimes that works. Sometimes you get pressy people out there who you know, think you should behave

just this way. But um, but it's all okay. However they whatever they write, however they act, it's it's all right as long as I reached that one person. I know there's one person out there who came for something powerful, some healing, some direction, and and I know it's not like I experienced it when they do, but I have faith that they're there, and that's why I can get some pleasure out of having to go to Florida. I'm playing at the Taco Standard. The song writer postables. Okay,

so you know you have a very analytical perspective. You understand what you're doing when you hit it out of the park, to use a baseball metaphor, are you frustrated that you're not reaching more people? You had that moment the end of the seventies early eighties where everybody in America was paying attention to you. Do you get frustrated that now you're doing great stuff and not as many people are aware of it. Yeah, sometimes, Bob, I do.

Sometimes I feel sorry for myself and uh and and I feel a little angry or irked like so, but why you know, well, you do only feel upset if there was somebody else getting the attention who was not really who. You know. It comes down to ego, but it also comes under money. So if my ego said I am so much better than that guy, why can't I at least get the same stage he has to

get a chance to be heard? Um And a lot of that thinking just just you know, I just went I think things have a time, and I think that, Um, you know, if there's a time where I'll be served well by being in front of a larger audience and I could do my job taking care of them, then I'll be in front of a bigger audience. I think I accept the fact that I am. I like to just say unique, unusual, um, but I accept the fact

that I'm not and have never been particularly homogenized. I don't want to say normal, but you know what I mean. So that's harder to for people, all the people involved, and to put that person in front of a large audience. But um so the answers. Yes, it's been frustrating sometimes, but I feel I really feel like if that's where I want to go, I'll aim there and make the things around me take me there. Okay, to what degree are you a student of the game. Let's start with Okay,

you're not really caring about reaching everybody. But are you saying, well, I was in this town a year ago, and my numbers are up or down and I and that affects what I'm playing. Oh yeah, I don't know anything about that stuff. The unfortunate thing is I don't think my manager did either. So now I think I have a crew around me. It's it is very sophisticated and so whatever those numbers are, hopefully, um we'll be building it.

You know. Let me tell you that when I'd sell out a place right and I didn't want to play the really big places I kept it. I said, we're not gonna ever go bigger than five thousands. We're gonna try to keep this intimate thing right. And I had I had, um, you know, constructed the thing as I wanted it to be. And I had these rules, which was to never go out and look at the audience

while they're pibly it. But one day at a winery, I went out and watched them coming in, and I said to myself, Wow, I can't relate to any of those people, right, And how can I say, you know, you don't know what their dressed, who they are. But I just went, oh, my audience, it's not my peer group.

And realize that when you have a large audience, probably seventy percent of them are coming for a very different reason than that wonderful core group who comes to you know, like like vampires, we get really high off each other the blood and intoxicated. The rest of those people come to watch, and they're good numbers and they fill the seats,

but they don't give you what you come for. And and I suspect, you know, I'm I I think quite horribly that something in my mind when I don't want them to come anymore, I only want the true religion, the people who need to be there, the people who you know are so invested in the music, not the people who came because their cousin likes joking the love or related to the promoter. All those people and um and and that's okay. You know, I understand why I why I did that, But I think it's so ego based.

I think I think now everybody's invited, and the more people, the more bean Besia will grow, the more people who come, the more love and good will, the more I live forever, Like every artist wants to live forever. Everybody wants to live forever. If you see me play, I'll be in your memory and and you pass that. You know these are very very personal things. They'll talk about it very much.

That's the way I'll be with you always, because you'll tell the story to your kid or your Granted, I saw her at the Da da Da Da Da da da. And you know, if you last a hundred years after you die, then you've done a good job for the legend of Rickingly Jones, whatever that legend is going to end up being. But also in a very practical basis, I won't be seventy years old and have to work in order to pay my mortgage, and that would be

really great. Okay, let's go back to the money. Uh Is it that just you know, living now, a revenue from recordings and publishing is not as high or did you blow the money and you regret it. I regret blowing it, but I had to add sick people in my family and had to pay for them. That's how I spent them. Um. I was also devastated in that horrible crash of two thousand and eight. Um, So I didn't I did bad things, and I took for granted that I'd always have a little bit of money and

I lost it. And when I lost it and the i r S put a lean on everything I had, I could not get back on my feet. And I was a rock star. I didn't know anything about anything about anything that I did with money, taxes, how to pay bills. It was a rough and hard lesson to lose everything and find you know, all those nice people at the bank don't give a shit about you. You know, they're not going to give me a loan or help you do that just because you used to make millions

of dollars buddy, can you spare it? Do? So? All those lessons that so many others were learning at the time, I also learned. Um. I of course I regret blowing it, but I think it's not hoky. I think I've learned amazing lessons. You know, I was. I was taken right to the top and immediately like a dream come true, like an angel took me there and didn't have time to learn very many lessons on my way. I've learned a lot of lessons now. And um, I didn't have

any respect for money. I thought it was ghost to care about money, and I threw money around but everybody dinner for about five years every where I went. Um, I have a healthy respect for it now because I know that you know, if you don't have anybody, you'll meet a lot of kind people along the way, But it's much it's much better to have the money to pay your own way. UM. So I think if I aim, I'll hit the mark. I just have to decide what I'm aiming at and not be um guilty about having

success succeeding. And you know, I also try to not be clear because I like a little bit of fuzzy thinking, so that other things can take shape than just what you you were going to plan. But at this age, I think it's not the worst thing to start to have clear plans about how it will be, whether it will be, how long it will be. So that's that's what I'm living by the railroad tract. So that's what it's like. Now, Okay, let's stay with the money just

one more time. Uh, do you still get royalties assuming there are people listening to your music from recordings from from publishing or did you sell those rights? I sold some of the rights. Um, but I do still get royalties more than you. You'd be surprised you I do okay on those roads. If I didn't have those rotaries, I'd be shipped out of Look, and that happened because as I was just going getting signed at Warner Brothers are in the six month. I wrote about it a

little in the book. But um, somebody said with it Ivan, I don't know, said you have to have your own publishing, don't sell your publishing. That's how you'll make all your money. And at that time, it's just it's a concept. Right, where would that all that money come? Well, that was exactly the truth. The publishing. Um, you know, I sold it for not very much money. UM to pay up that I r S did. Um, but I kept some of it. And and so I'm doing I'm okay, okay,

tell me about that guilt over success. Well, there's so many ways that it manifests. But my family, it's not that they were ne'er do wells, but they could. None of them seem to ever get a break. No, And so when I first, you know, walked into the golden fields of the success that I had wanted to have, I felt really bad that none of them had anything. Nor my friends who were also talented musicians, but nobody

seemed to be interested in in their songs. I tried very hard to bring sal Bernardi and his songs get Warner Brothers design, and they didn't want anything to do with them. When I see really successful people and their friends all getting signed, like how they do that? Because I get um, But it manifests really terribly. UM. It weighs besides self the obvious self destructive things, the subtle

ways should trip yourself up. Now, maybe I'm just an asshole, but I rather think that, you know, sometimes i'd meet somebody who might have been an important person to be and I would be thirty minutes late to the meeting, or I meet somebody else and talk to them, like, you know, I remember meeting Um Peter Case and Victoria Williams. They were wanted to talk to me about producing a song, a sal Bernardi song, to speak of it, think of it.

And I went into the meeting and I said, well, first of all, if we do this song, we have to do it this way. And then and I just went just like and they were just set to me listen. Victoria and I are very close friends, and I said to her a couple of years ago, I just I want to apologize for that meeting forty years ago. I'm so sorry that I I was so nervous and I just didn't know how to work with other people. I thought I had a vision and I I wasn't cut out to be a producer at that time. And she

she just hugged me, you know. So. But anyway, there are a lot of ways you can alienate people and make sure that you don't go any further and even destroy yourself. There was always that feeling of they're gonna find out I'm here. I've read other people excuse me. I've seen other people say that about their careers, but that is a very real thing. You really feel like at any moment, some writers going to say she can't really.

Of course they did, but she can't really sing and she's da and everybody's gonna go, oh, we believe you, and we're not even gonna go see your listen. So I think that that probably went up until the small gap where older age started and I went, that's fine, you guys do it everyone. As long as somebody books me somewhere and I can play, I'll show you what

I am. And and you know, if you like, if you don't like it, I tell you the truth though that you know I said, I think I said when I sat down, I didn't care about that one guy anywhere, but he's always with me. I think that that one critic. I think he comes from the talking Heads camp. He's one of those shipsters in he comes from New York City, and everything he knows is, you know, there's certainly no

room for emotion or flawed female. It's male, and it's in this place, and it rocks, and it's and if it's not that, it's second rate, and and and I'm always trying to talk to him and say, there, did I change your mind? See? And he's always the critic that I that I never win, and I like to think that I'm setting him down, but I don't know if I'll ever really set them down. Let's go back to Peter and Victoria. You apologize for behavior. How did you learn to get along with people? And it's one

thing to get along with people. The other half you said was I thought I was right. Do you still think you're right? Or are you open to more opinions. I think my creative ideas are fantastic and they're unique. Um, but what I started doing in the early nineties or something was just setting my ideas aside totally and getting other people to do their ideas and being a guest with them. I think that's the worst thing I can do. I think I have a clear vision, and when it

comes to me, that's what I should do. I mean to not spend one more day apologizing to people because I have a clear vision and know what to do. If you want to work with me, there'll be places where I'll ask you to participate. But if I see the whole thing and know what it should be, that's gonna be. That's your job. You're in the orchestra. Sometimes you're in a rock band where you get to play the solo o the times you're not. This is my

stage and this is how I do my work. And that took a long time because when people say mean things about in the Meka, I mean, say she's a bit nobody wants to work with you, they don't like you. It hurts the little kid in me. You know, I'm trying to make friends, try really hard doing all this music. It's been all this money is come and you know, so it's not like going into a little room. I'm not the univox, you know, trying reaching out to make friends.

And when my best efforts are met with you know. And and one reason is because it's just fun to say anything about famous people. And I get that, you know, you don't never have to look them in the eye. And and but back in the eighties, when I was very big and could do anything I wanted, one of the things I really wanted was to make friends. And I sacrificed my work in order to try try to get people like me. I think I did some interesting work,

but it wasn't my work? Um, So an answer to that question, if I recognize somebody's a great anything and the ranger, he's a player, he's got something I need, then I'll open the door for us to talk to one another. But what I don't do anymore is set down what I have. Um. That might have been a girl lesson. I don't know, but I feel fine. You know. I know it's taken a lifetime. I'm sixty seven years old. Um,

but we get to see kids who are twenty. They're creating, uh, such a more eat you know, it's not even like it's not an afterthought. It is an equal world. Um. But in my generation, it's just simply wasn't. And I you can hear the way I talked. I'm emphatic and excited,

but that's just so full of love. And there are some men, not so much women, but some people who are just like WHOA, they don't like me and are there not comfortable with me and and so working only with men and all that sexual tension that's always going on that you have to manage if you're a female boss while getting them to play and define you as a fellow musician. That's how I wanted to be a fellow musician and not a girl, and a lot that's

a lot of psychic energy. You know how much of this is just having lived and have experiences these insights or to what degree might have been through therapy. Did you go to therapy and what has that helped or not help? Well? Therapies for private issues probably you know, things that happen to do with my family, and maybe early on, you know, other issues, But I can't see it actually extending into the wider world though it at churning must have. So did you see that? I got

that point. But did you see the therapist? You still see a therapist? Oh yeah, I've seen a therapist for twenty years phone because we're in different towns. But he's it's good, it's a good guy. Okay, let's go back something he said earlier. You said, well, you know, if you expect me in the red shirt, I'm not gonna wear that. I complete that the same way. And it's and I think it's the sixties, okay, And everybody sold out in the eighties and I didn't sell out. You know,

I'm even still wearing the clothes from the sixties. But to what degree. Were you always that person not necessarily needing to put other people down from being behind you, but not really a member of the group, outsider thinking for yourself. Well, uh, you know, all my life, I've been an outsider on the playground. That's that's just simply the way that it was. It wasn't my choosing, but that's that's who I am here on stage. People like that,

They like that energy. That's a place where a weirdo can find a home because if you're creative and you have that unique energy, then people can watch you from a distance and enjoy it. If you're sitting next to him on the bus, it might make um a little uncomfortable. Um, I think you're asking me a bigger question though that I'm not actually getting my hands around. Would you ask

it again? Well, I mean, I think you've hit the point of always being an outsider and the tension of wanting to be yourself but by the same token, wanting to be included. I think we've sort of nailed that. Let's let's go back to others. Something else you said earlier about being a woman in the business. Yes, you want to be taken uh seriously as an equal with other people you're playing with. But expand that, what's it like being a woman dealing with a wreck? Good company?

Being on the road? I mean this is we live in a different ror now with mobile phones. Everybody's got a camera everywhere. But you were on the road. Did you live like the men? Did you go out drinking? Did you drug? Did you have sex with different people? Did you stay home and you know, in your hotel room and say no, I want none of that. So UM, the answer to that question changes with each new tour

and reinvention of our growth. You know, Um, when I first started out, I was the boss and I wanted to but I didn't know that yet, And I always wondered why the boys didn't call me to go out with them when they went to dinner. And they'd all go to have dinner, but I'd be home in the hotel. I feel sorry for myself to look and the big

star and I'm at the loneliest person of all. Um. Then the next subsequent tours, I understood, no matter how friendly we are when we're on tour, I'm the boss, I'm the employer, and very few of them will cross the line to um to be friendly. They're just more comfortable with each other. This this goes on still somewhat,

but not as much. Let's pitch gears a second. We spoke, as I say, about three or four months back, and you were very warm and excited about the fact that you had this new romance with a guy in New Orleans. Is that still happening? It is my romance. Um, I'm just gonna chew this. It's all right to talk about it a little bit. You know, he's very private, he doesn't want to discussed. I think it's important to protect family and friends. This same thing of people you don't

know knowing what you're doing and caring about it. It's overwhelming to people at first. So and then also they asked this question later, which you know you might have broken up, your heart's devastated and there, and there's not something you want to talk about. But people feel they have a right to talk to you about it because it's part of fame. So I will say yes, at this late age, I've met someone. I hope that we continue to be to evolve into whatever it is you

can evolve into it this age. But I think it's pretty important to keep it, keep it private. For him, but also for me. So what's the key to being involved with Rickie Lee Jones? Do you mean on a personal level? Yeah, both romantically and as a friend. Boy, I think that it seems so much reflected in his eyes, like he's comes from a very different social place than me. We share music, love of music's I got a business guy, a bunch of sports on the weekends. Sometimes, who are you? Um?

I think it's what it takes to be a friend with me, is what it takes to be with anybody who's patience and kindness and as long as you resort to kindness when you're confused instead of aggression. Sometimes I want to challenge. That's the moment I don't challenge and I totally surrender. I have a totally different technique now than I had when I was a kid, which is to do the opposite of what I think, what my feelings say, do, to not be so patient to wait.

In my case, I'm a so insecure emotionally, and I'm always watching for the hamered to Paul or whatever it is, and and then react to things that might not be going on. It might be going on, but they'll pass. So I've actually read read in a song called Patients and Kindness. That's a really beautiful song, and it's it's about getting outside of your own skin, even though people might be hurting your feelings, and finding out what's happening to them instead. And if we look after the love

the beloved before us, always, we'll win. As long as they're also looking out for the beloved first always, we'll both win. Once we start to look after our own interests. I'm scared. I think I'm not gonna call you. I'm going to play a game, and then then we're fucked. But if we think, how is the other feeling does he needs space, says he needs me to call him and set my And I'm also strengthened by this willpower control.

I think at my age, this is a you know, we're not gonna have children, so you know, we're creating roads and trenches and trees and forests and things for us to do as we communicate with one another. And the main thing, as I always tended, I've always made people my world. Um, I'm pretty sure this person just won't be able to tolerate that. And my total attention. It's a lot of serious attention. So I'm you might say,

I'm learning to date. I'm learning to put somebody in a place in my world instead of making them my world. So that's a lot more than I expected to say. But I think it's good to say that out loud, because I'm sure I'm not the only girl who's made men a man her world, right, Jennis Choplin, And to learn, No, I'm I'm worth and whole, and I don't need to shrink myself and make you the world. So you'll be You'll know how much important you are. You know how

important you are. I think so much of my motivation with men has been because I felt sorry for them since I was a little kid. And when you know what, I'm gonna just, I'll cut my arm off so you can pick it up and shot back on you what I mean. I just And finally, I you know. And it's not easy. I don't have very many skills or habits with this idea, but I am good, I am whole. I don't need anybody. I'd like to have friends, and I'd like people to be true and loving and other

than that, it's it's okay if I can't. If I they're just this this thing my mother did once and I don't know why it had a profound effect on me, but when I was really little, she said something like, you you mustn't hurt his feelings, and so I would really go over backwards to try to make sure that nobody was getting hurt by me, even if that meant, you know, I had to walk with somebody when I'm really little that I didn't really like, or are they smelled bad or whatever it was that I didn't like,

I would sacrifice how I felt so they would be happy. That is what I did all my life, and I think I'm not doing that now, and I think it's largely because the person I care about first is totally intact, finally on his own, and so I didn't pick somebody who needed me to save them, and that's the keys.

For some reason, I was attracted to somebody who was whole, and uh, we're both at this later years in life that because I mean, I see, I'm not that it's trouble free, but I think for the most part, these these issues are clear that you know, this is our age. That's what we'd like to do. I'd like to travel more. I'd like to be a little more carefree. Um, and that's the life I've lived because you know, I travel and I see the world. I'd love to do that

with somebody, but that might not be this guy. But whatever it is, we're able to be together. I think we can have a happy time for as long as it's decreed. I know that sounds really noncommittal, but that's what I gotta do. Uh. In the past, you talk about wanting this kindness, etcetera. In your past relationships. Have you been volatile? Have you always been kind? Have you been aggressive at times? Yeah? Volatile? Are you kidding you read the book? Um? Yes, my parents My family were

very emotional, demonstrative people. And my mother had a terrible flaw, which is she she could not apologize, and if she got mad, she stayed mad. She didn't seem to have a door to come out of being mad gracefully. So she does. She percolate for days and it and kind of dwindle off. As a child, you had to watch her cues if if you're back on the integat and and so really, I didn't know how to fight with people. You know, if there was a disagreement, it was over,

I'm out. I didn't know how to, well, we have a disagreement and then we'll work it out. And as I did, her later life goes on. So when I was a kid, at any minute, life would disintegrate. Love there's always been challenged with with you know, with all the weapons out in every disagreement, and that I just simply didn't know another way. And if I there's a famous story of me, unfortunately in Arizona, Tippy. I was playing my my hometown for the first time, um in

my career. And you know, if you read the book, you'll see how many terrible things had happened in Phoenix. One was my brother's accident, so it was trauma. It's all there. And I'm also bored and Auntsie before the sound check, and they've made a very dangerous backstage area. Everything's just propped up. They have folding tables with mirrors leaning against either curtains or temporary thing, temporary things. Yeah, mosts at a door and I said blah blah blah

blah blah, and I walked out. I didn't even slam the door. The door and all the mirrors fell off the table and broke. Now there are a couple of things about that, which was my my stage manager j D. Dolan was standing there, Ricky, what's the matter? But it had been a total accident. But now I felt like I had to um stand for what it what it happened, fucking walked away. And that's funny. That thing became very

a famous thing, which she did in Phoenix and the thing. Um, if I had a little bit of ability, I would oh. I could never say I'm sorry, or I could never have explained. I could never look like I had accidents happened to be um. I just didn't know how to be gracious. And and that graciousness comes from a power that you have inside where nothing is at stake. You can you know, you can be kind and courteous to anybody. There are people who will be kind to that curtious,

that guy, but not to that guy. It doesn't they lose something if they say I'm so sorry, I apologize. And it took me a long time to you know, I didn't tell j D. I didn't I didn't do that. Um. But it didn't help because all the crew people heard it had to clean it up. And so the legend began. Tell me more about your insecurity and do you ever feel secure? Is like, if you're in your home and no one else is there, then you yourself. But as soon as you integrate with the world, you become insecure.

I think for me, the answer to that question is not possible because you'd have to be secure to know if you're insecure, you know, you're just you're the way that you are at all times. I think we all feel more comfortable when we're by ourselves. But secure, yeah, I think I'm I think I'm very secure now. Actually, um, I recognize that I have the ability, like anybody, to make the world a better place for me being in it.

So whatever vehicle it is, whether we're talking together or I'm meeting the insurance guy, or I feel okay about my part in it. Sometimes though, now that I think of it, there are times where you know, my mother had agmoraphobia. Friends came over, she would run and hide in her in her room until they was really rude. But there are times where I feel a little overwhelmed by in person and in person meetings. This step is fun, but if we were all here together, it would be

really hard about friends. You know the nature of the businesses, you know a million people, But to what to we are you in contact or see people? And we're in the covid era, so it's a little crazy on a regular basis. Is you're like somebody you talked to our email with every day, or and you have a lot of people looking for you and you instigated or people looking for you, or really you're kind of isolated unless

you reach out or go out. Boy. That used to be the case when I lived in Los Angeles, so totally isolated. Less I ship felt at at least of us. I initiated some kind of contact, and it seemed there that all contact was was status based like people. I think it's true. People would call you back in the order of how important you are in a larger framework, and it was very hard to find friends. Now, I definitely. I was just talking to my friend in New Mexico.

I have girlfriends now and boyfriends now and they called me. I don't know why they didn't before, but they called me now and I call them. I think I have friends. Yeah, for sure, definitely have friends here. We play scrabble and we go have coffees together. We play scrabble, a terrible game we do. Okay, wait, wait, wait, that all sounds good. Why is it a terrible Why is it a terrible game? You know, here's why. Because some people know a lot more words than other people, and some people use the

book a lot more. Some people look at the book even when they're putting down the words. That's why they're looking. It's a fun game, but it but it's it's a little bit long, a little tedious. Well, you know, as we speak, there's this hot app core wordle Are you familiar with that? Do you use it? Okay? Uh? As you can play that one by yourself? But without to what degree? Are you tech savvy the computer in the phone, etcetera? I'm okay, I I have a little tolerance for it.

I could do some stuff. Okay, let's go back to the music. How do you choose what songs to cover? I think it's mostly impulsive, although I'm working on a list right now with Rust Titleman, my old producer from the first two records, that we're creating a list of jazz songs that we're gonna start recording probably in a couple of weeks um and where so whatever happens to enter his mind of my mind in those two weeks are the songs that will end up on the list, and I picked them. I you know, I have a

feeling about some passage in it. I can see or feel myself in the passage singing it. Um, And that's usually it. But sometimes it's a little random, like I did this song Bad Company. I always liked Bad Company singing it love Bad Company, and that was the best song I feel like make. I mean, I can't get enough with it, but I always loved on the first song on the second side, Bad Company. Yeah, that guy's

a great singer. And so I recorded Bad Company again on a song with some jazzy kind of things um that I hadn't really thought of doing before, and did them because I thought of him at that month. And and my credit and the records are good. But if I could have, if I would have more control over how I do things, I would think I was a better musician. And that's why I'd like to have a

really good producer. I'd like to have somebody who's thinking about the repertoire and thinking about the players and the best time to do it and the best place. Whereas I might be impulsive, that's not my forte. I'm a I'm a creative thinker and a and a singer, but organizing repertoire on people, no, I'm not so good at it. So um, I'm excited to see how it comes out with Russ and what songs. I think he'll create an atmosphere.

You know, I always veer I do the I do the you know, the metal rock song with the trad jazz song, and I enjoy that, but I would really like to do an atmosphere and stay there, just one time, to stay there. Okay. Uh. You know when back in the old days when you work with Russ, he was paid by Warner Brothers who had a record contract. Have you maintained contact with Russell? Did reconnect with Russ? And Russ is totally independent now who will pay for the recordings? Yeah?

We did not have contact. And in fact, I wondered if he was mad at me, because sometimes I see stuff on on the internet that he looked like. There's this one thing where this woman was interviewing him. It almost looked like a bridge club or something. She said, oh, the Ricky Lee Jones and so wonderful and that in pirates talk about that, and he just deflected it went somewhere else, and I was like, oh, why would he be mad at me? What is he still mad about pirates?

What happened? And I reached out to him. I think I said, I tell you in this interview and whatever. It was, the moment that we heard each other's voices, it just went up and smoked. We were happy to hear each other. I went to New York. We had a lunch, went to New York, we had a dinner. Little by little, we've come in close again. He's he's you know, he's been there from the inception of rock and roll. He was in a band called the The Specters three or the Specters for it Phil Specter group.

He was sixteen in that and his big sister was dating Phil Specter. He I'll ask him who wrote the lyric to whatever Arlean bucks, Remember that clarinet song, um da da da da da da da da da da dah the uh uh, it's not a He knows the name of the guy who didn't what his real name was. Wearing bored. He's like, Wow, So I have an idea. I'd like to do some recordings with Russ and make them into a podcast. Besides the recordings she'll do it. So we have vigorously redod our friendship. Okay, you're very

much a rock chick. How do you know all these jazz songs? Well, before I was a rock chick, I grew up in a house where my father listened to jazz all the time. So the first before the eye was alive, before the Beatles. Can you release that? So the first music I heard Andy Williams, Harry Bellafante, that was the pop stuff stuff happening. And then his collection of Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, the Dorseys and Bitty Goodness

that to I and Duke Gallington it again. That's that's where I grew up hearing before the Beatles came out, So I had, you know, this unique synthesis of jazz timing and straight ahead pop. Be the difference that pop is you're right off the down beach blad rather see you that little girl kind of count another man? And in jazz, how would you do that too? Well, I'd read you day, little girl. That'd be kind of blues. But you know what I mean, I feel that think

in a different way. So the main thing is I love music. So if it's a great song, even I'm so load, so I can cry. You know, that's a devastating songs. So if it's a great song, if it moves me, that's the direction I grew in. Well, if you read the book, you were infatuated with Beatles. Uh, most of us love all the things they did. But what are your one or two favorite Beatles song? What is your favorite Beetle era? My favorite era is the

very beginning. Um, there's something spooky, spooky about the beginning. I don't know, it's just reverb, but there's something. Um, you can feel this. You know, this is a bad that reverberated into the world. Yes and not it was big being crossby, but this music shook the world. And so you can feel this synthesis. I know I've used that word twice, but you can feel in um, the very beginning of this power forming in those weird, simple early songs. Later it's creative. I love it, don't get

me wrong. But the thing that goes to my heart, I think it's always singing, and the singing on there is a place well I can go, just goes into my childhood heart. So how did you see the Beatles? Have you seen Paul McCartney. Did you see George Harrison? No, I haven't seen the Beatles. I was at a party once with Ringo, but I didn't have the nerve to go say hello, and I haven't. You know. I think I'd be all right if I met one. You know, sometimes you go, you'll melt, don't go near the fire,

but I'd like to. That would be a powerful thing if I actually got to spend spend a minute with the with the I need to know where what happened. No, I haven't met him. Okay. Also in the book, You're you're going to a lot of shows. You've seen a lot of acts. What were the two best shows you were ever? Rock? Too? Well, you know I've had a lot of rock festivals. But um, the first time I saw Simon and Garfuncle, it was a powerful thing. Um there's no backdrop, you know, just a light on them.

And he had so much command over what he was doing. And a time when you know, people are floppy hats and playing long solos to Paul Simon at command of his instrument and a little bit of message. A lot of college, um patronizing things, but but deep in there was such beautiful music and such command of the guitar and and I was moved by that. I think, um and I don't think. And then I saw Tom Waits at the Pantageous and I've never seen a show like it.

He had a it was kind of theater. He had a stripper open and he's saying standing on the corner watching all the girls go by, and she was so beautiful and I was like, WHOA, what's that? And he kind of acted out the song so that that, you know, that was really inspiring. I think it was just when I met him, because he I couldn't have bought the ticket, he gave, gave me a ticket, gave all the friends from the Troubadour tickets, so I I think, you know,

probably were done. I'll go, WHOA you forgot that? You know? Ella Fitzgerald or Sara of honor Frank. That's it, Frank Sinatra at the Universal Amphitheater just before they closed it, h Sarah vaughted open for him. And that's kind of where I imprinted this thing where when I watched him, there was nothing that he didn't know. He was in command of everything, and everybody there was safe in Frank's arms. He knew where he was going and you could just sit back and go. And I went, that's that's the

place to grow up to be. That's what people seek. They want you to know exactly where you're going and take up there and um. So that was not only you know, he was struggling a little bit, but it didn't matter. He he and the and the orchestra and the band were one. And that was another thing I still covered, which is to have an ensemble that can you know, go with you where you go, where you don't have to follow their down be they follow yours.

That was when that was still happening in that kind of music, and that you know, if you can have that with a little bit of sexy rocket roll sometimes, then you've got a unique and wonderful thing or not. You mentioned Ross, you mentioned Tom Waits in your book. You say you think people are only supposed to be in your life at a certain time. Then they grow one way, you go another way. So to what degree all of these people from the past do you have

any contact with them? Do you reconnect with them if they're ill? What's the viewpoint on that. I don't think I'll ever talk to Calm again. His wife is pretty adamant that that never happened. Rust TITLEMN. You know, like I said, I'm talking to him Lyle love It found his way back into my life a week or two ago and said, I just want to reach out to you and have contact with you again, just like that. That's all. And who doesn't. So we began to I wrote a little letter and uh, so you never know

who's going to come back around if you stay long enough. Okay, And you talked about loving to travel. What were some of your best experiences traveling and where have you not been that you want to go. I have not been to Africa, and uh, i'd like to see those animals before they're gone. I really want to see the Northern lights and uh actually took a gig in Alaska though no offense to them, but there were the hopes of seen the Northern lights, but it was cloudy, so I'd

like to see that event. Um. I haven't been to India or Russia or Kazotstan, and I haven't particularly you know, those aren't on my list of where I really I want to go before I die, But it would be exciting to go everywhere. I think that you know, no place rises above that. You know, they're all defined by the audience that was there, and the audience is all

the same audience, They're all the same person. I was glad I got to go all the way down to Argentina, and I'd like to see Para del Fuego and Antarctica right the Antarctica now. Um, but I guess I've I've been so many places in my I'm I guess I've been to many places, and and I just I'd like to see that extraordinary event in the sky and be

in the home land of Africa. Although I'm Neanderthals, so my my I'd probably come from the Deander Valley, but I think of the of Africa as the home and I'd like to go there and see if when I look up at the stars there, if if I go, I remember these stars or what happens? And what do

you think of the state of the world today? Oh? My, well, the first thing that comes to mind is the young country of America, such a big hope, not even realizing how great it is because it's always fighting with itself. I lived in France for a while, so I got to look back over my shoulder and went, wow, what an incredible country America is. You know, we we keep hearing information about how other countries don't like us, but when you're over there, you realize how much they love us.

They're like they're like the sister, sometimes the jealous sister, but they love us and wish they could be as wild as we are. So when democracy begins to fail, as we've seen so quickly, you know, in ten or twenty years, I feel kind of sad about that. I feel sad that, you know, our brothers and our brethren here are so selfish that they just think about what they want instead of protecting the larger thing of making sure whether or not you went that guy or that guy.

You got to make sure the machine keeps darring, gott keep having democracy. Um, I feel frightened for the whole world if this, if this thing continues to degenerate and go down. But on the other hand, it's a wonderful and large world. It's there have been many epox epochs of the whole systems of life that came and went, came and went. But I have a little, um, a little uh petrified snail here about a hundred million years old.

I got on the Permian Trail and in New Mexico, I always like to look at the stars and that the petrified living things to remind myself that we're part of a larger movement of life and light. Maybe even a story, but I'm not sure if it's a story, it's something we can't conceive them. So don't take things so seriously. That's that's what I tell myself. Look, there's a star, don't take it, it's dead. Don't take anything seriously. Um. So I think the state of the you know, we

tend to take ourselves and our times seriously. We're so afraid of death and of our power that every generation thinks it's the one that's gonna kill everybody and everything. But it's not the worst thing to try to if it helps remind people to be their better selves. I think that America is a light to the whole world. And if we don't recognize it before it's too late, and we don't don't mean we can be bullies. But if we don't recognize it before it's too late, then

it'll be cool. And if we recognize it, then who knows, you know, who knows what a great what a great thing might happen. I'm just trying this thing here. This is a nice, a nice thing to tell you. I think it's called sub stack. And these guys invented this thing where they take ten percent of so I hope that's okay to tell They take a small percentage of it, and they invite people to create anything they want, and they help them do it. They'll give you an editor,

they'll give you this, they'll give you a back. You can reach out to your fans and have them come and you can talk to them, seeming to them, right to them constantly. It's it's a little altruistic, little capitalistic, but but the main focus is to avoid commerciality and the pressure to do things based on money and to do things directly to your audience. If little things like that can pop up, who knows what can happen, you know.

I gotta tell you, I was very excited about the idea that that a younger generation is trying to, you know, generate money, but also do things for the greater good. I think it's a I think it's a beautiful world, and I have a lot of hope for it. I really do. I have a lot of hope for it. Don't you know. But I'm a pessimist. I am not I am an optimist. I could go on. We could have a four hour discussion about this, but I know

you're limited in time. Uh if you could, if I can weave a magic wand or snap your fingers, what would you want to change about you or your life? I mean, there's so many things you write about the book where you know you've been attacked for your looks or you made certain choices. Are you fatalistic like that's just the way it is? Or if we could change a couple of things, what would you change? But the first answers that I'd have you bring my mother back

because I missed my mom. And you know, I was thinking, we have two kinds of friends. We have the friends that that make us laugh, and then we have the friends who laugh at our jokes, who know how to laugh. And there and that rare friend who laughs when we want them to laugh. Understand it so deeply. I only have a friend or two who laughs right on you now, and mother, I just senter into hysterical fits of laughter. And that made me feel so powerful. I could do anything.

When I hunt up with my mother, I could write any song or do anything because my mother left at my jokes. Um, so that's the first thing I feel like, Um, I miss having that one son and mood in my life. On a more practical basis, I guess, um, I don't spend any time doing that, you know, A wishless. I hope that I reach a larger audience. But if I do reach a larger audience, I don't want to, you know, do that thing. I should have doubt myself and whether or not I belonged or so. Um, I feel like

whatever comes to us to come. I'd like to not be poor. I'd really like to not be poor. But I have a feeling like, uh, in my case, maybe every things on the right truck. And do you need to be remembered or yes if you do, and tell us more about that. Yeah, that's a funny question because I could end up that petrified not even if I'm just a petrified rock. I guess I want to still be here. I like it here, so I wanted to get buried. They have these pods they'll put you in

and plant a tree on top of you. I know, plants don't eat they eat carbon or nitrogen or something but I'm trying to be part of it, you know. I just want to be part of the living world, whether it's in a very physical way or in and what people say, or a melody that they hum maybe in three hundred years ago. Whatever it is, is something I did. Even if they don't know I did it, it's still here, like green sleeves. You know who wrote that, or you know? Or my name? That's that's okay too,

though of course by then it won't have anything. But I think I'm not Somebody quoted somebody on a movie yesterday I was watching. They said the last person you don't die until the last person who's going to say your name says your name. That's interesting. You know. There's a lot of things in biblical writings or spiritual writings that talk about how we want to be remembered, we

want our name to go on. It just seems to be an intrinsic that some people, you know, just burn me up and brought me in the river when I'm dead. But but for me, I'd like some melody I wrote to be some long time from now. Rickly, I really love you. I mean, it's I don't know if we'd ever get along in real life. But so much of

what you say resonates with my identity. I mean, feeling like an outsider, wanting to be an insider, the insecurities, all that other stuff that I and I look at the rest of the people and they're going to a job. Maybe it's like Jackson Brown's pretender or something. I just don't know how they do it. I don't either. You know, it's probably really hard for them and and not to you know, look over at them. But but on the other hand, not everybody's cut out to do artistic things.

They look at this job and go, I hate to have to travel all the time. I look at their job and go, I hated if I didn't get to travel. So I like to think that we serve each other a little bit, you know, you make this, somebody listens to it and their days a little bit, and then they go out do something better. I think. I think it's good what you're doing, and you've found someplace where the way you feel makes something good in the world, don't you think? Oh yeah, But I mean we could

go really so many of these things. I mean, you have a child. I know that you're It's not something you'd rather discuss, but I don't have. I've invested everything in what I have and in my so called career, and then people our age are starting to retire and are on the down slope. I mean, you said earlier, you're older, you're wiser, you're mellow where, you're happier, You've

seen all these things. But then you have all these people checking out and they're only living through their memories, and you say, well, you know, I got a lot of want to do here, and it's like, you know, I want to make my market. It's like also, now, because of the Internet, you can play. But you know, it used to be very hard to get a record deal. And if you've got a record deal, even if you didn't have a hit, the label would make a certain

number of people aware of his publicity, etcetera. Today you can make Anybody can make something and post it online. That doesn't mean anybody's gonna hear it or read it. I know, like the whole game. The whole game changed while we were playing. It's kind of shocking. I mean, you got a hit that was ubiquitous. You talk about Saturday Night Live, Saturday Night Live, the ratings are you know,

they're fraction in Saturday That life means nothing. I don't want to make it about Saturday Night Live, but it's like it was. It was the heartbeat of a generation and there isn't even anything like that anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if there is, because it would be speaking to a younger generation than us. But to come from a time where there was only a TV and radio, and on TV only one one show that had impact

imagined that. Yeah, so the things that happened were much more miraculous, much more powerful for them having found their way to the one place that you had to go

in order to be seen or heard. It's funny because with so many choices now there is no more greater music for their being more doors, that music is behind because the amount of people who are powerful, meaningful is always the same and the fact that you know, the percentage is this much, and the fact that there are more doors just means it's crowded with more people who are not really very good, while the great people are still probably trying to find their way to the door

that that all that all come and that's the world they're going to live in. There creating that world, it's not the world we do. It's hard for us to imagine what that will be like. Um if if so many people who aren't great get equal time to the people who are truly gifted, but that's for them to work out, Okay, but I just to stay. I have to respond to them. I think it's a different ethos. In the sixties, we all came from a middle class. The income inequality was nowhere like it was today, and

you could leave things on the table. The crass commercialization didn't exist. The most important thing was to make your statement and be unfettered. I mean, a rock star was as rich and powerful as anybody in America for getting Europe with royalty, and you could make a statement and everybody could hear it, whereas today it's about the pannumbra. Oh man, if I have some success, I can sell this, I can do this. And there's a lot of creativity. You know there was in the internet. It's not music,

and right now there's amazing creativity and tell vision. But for those of us who lived through it, people have no idea what it was like. When the Beatles hit, it was like a light went off. There was music before, but this made it the most important thing in the world. Yes, it did, and we were there. Yeah, I'm with you. The crass commercialism that you're talking about, the the small group of people who made it hit are whatever to be crass. That will pass. It's just a pop culture

as it's becoming. It's just an ever changing, folding thing. Used to be in England you'd watch a thing come and go in six months, while in America lasted for a few years. We've caught up to them now and and you know it's going. It is a place where people go to make money, not make art and um, but I think that that will pass. Two, I really do. I think it's it's going to be ever changing, wonderful thing and and there will be a time soon where music and musicians are not the top of the of

the social strata that they are now. You know what will Who knows what it will be? My computer programmers, I don't know. But this time in which we live, when musicians get to be beloved, I don't think it'll always be like that? Is that just who I know? Is that optimistic or pessimistic? I just think things change. I'm thinking five d years ago, who knows, who were any who any of the singers were, so it's probably

going to change again. Just realistic. I think there will always be music, whether to drive the culture or not. That's yet to be seen. Anyway, the irony here is other than your boyfriend. I don't think we covered a single thing that we talked about in our first conversation. Yeah, the personal is a lot about the book. I think thanks, that were right, So I hope we can do this again in the future, just because you know, it's so great talking to you, so thanks so much for taking

the time, Ricky. But I just want to say thank you because you know, people, so many people responded because of what you said about the book, and it was so helpful to me, and I really want to thank you for that. Well, you know, I tell my psychiatrists we talked about marketing. They said, if I want to move ahead, the best thing I can do is just sit here and write something. And so in your a particular case, you wrote the book and you've got a

certain amount of publicity. It's all rock biographies autobiographiest but if you read the book, it's something that will stick with you forever. I mean, your experience of hitchhiking is a teenager going to meet that person in Canada and what was going on? What they said, I mean, these are ex and the way it was written, I can't I can't talk about another book that's even similar, you know, and it's it's and that's why it's so memorable. And

I tried. I was so impacted, you know. I hope to catch some of that what was in the book of what I wrote. But thanks for saying that, and I, as I said, I was glad to do it. In any event, we've come to the end of the feeling we've known. I have to say goodbye, Ricky Lee, thanks so much for doing us. Until next time. This is Bob Leftstax eight